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Building Relationships - Listen and Learn | Al & Autumn Ray · The Well

0:00
S1: Communication help for your marriage is coming up today on
0:03
S1: building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman.
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S2: If you're communicating and the person is feeling heard, they
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S2: feel loved. It draws them closer together and it creates intimacy.
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S3: Maybe you're going through this so that you could hear
0:17
S3: this broadcast so that now you can take a step
0:21
S3: in the right direction.
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S1: Welcome to Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
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S1: The New York Times best seller, The Five Love Languages. Today,
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S1: if your marriage feels stuck in silence or cycles of frustration,
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S1: don't miss the conversation straight ahead. Al and Autumn Rae
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S1: have been married more than 50 years, and they want
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S1: to coach you and your spouse in some basic communication skills.
0:48
S4: If you go to building relationships.us, you'll see our featured resource.
0:52
S4: It's a story based series that's simple but powerful. The
0:56
S4: first book is titled Rick and Jane learned to listen
1:00
S4: and talk. I'm thinking about my childhood and reading the
1:04
S4: Dick and Jane books, and it's kind of the same way.
1:06
S4: We'll find out about it here. Go to Building relationships.us.
1:10
S4: And I see an endorsement that says, this book could
1:13
S4: change the way you talk. And listen, I highly recommend it.
1:16
S4: That's by someone named Doctor Gary Chapman. Look at that, Gary.
1:21
S5: Well, it's always a pleasure to endorse books that you
1:25
S5: really believe in. Okay. And so I'm excited about our
1:28
S5: program today.
1:29
S4: I am too. Let's meet al and Autumn Ray. They've
1:33
S4: been married since 1970. You can do the math. And
1:36
S4: they are co-founders of Marriage Team, which provides Christian marriage
1:40
S4: coaching services. Together, they've trained hundreds of couples nationwide. Al
1:44
S4: holds a master's of science in counseling and human development.
1:48
S4: He served more than 27 years in the US Air
1:51
S4: Force and later became the full time executive director of
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S4: Marriage Team. Autumn earned her Bachelor of Science in Social Work,
1:58
S4: served as volunteer manager for the Multnomah County Department of
2:01
S4: Community Justice and is an experienced trainer and leader. They
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S4: live in Camas, Washington, and have two married children and
2:09
S4: two grandchildren. And if you go to building relationships.us, you'll
2:13
S4: see their book. Rick and Jane learn to listen and
2:16
S4: Talk again. Go to Building relationships.us.
2:21
S5: Well, and welcome to Building Relationships.
2:24
S2: Well thank you Gary. It's great to be here.
2:26
S3: It's wonderful to hear your voice.
2:28
S5: Well, now can you take us back a few years,
2:31
S5: maybe the late 60s in your own life, and share
2:34
S5: with us a little bit about how the two of
2:36
S5: you met and fell in love. Autumn, you're first.
2:40
S3: Jerry, you're taking us back many, many years. Let me
2:44
S3: see if I can go back that far. So Alan
2:47
S3: and I were in college. Um, I'm going to give
2:50
S3: us a plug to our college, Michigan Technological University. And so, uh,
2:57
S3: was in his senior year and I was there as
2:59
S3: a sophomore. So Allen had two months left before he graduated.
3:03
S3: So I'm telling you that because we had a long
3:06
S3: distance relationship. So he graduated and I was left at school. Um,
3:11
S3: but in that two months, we met and fell in
3:14
S3: love and, uh, decided really that we wanted to spend
3:18
S3: our lives together. It was a little bit of a
3:21
S3: situation to get together, uh, because he was going to
3:24
S3: be in the Air Force. And again, we were going
3:26
S3: to have, um, long distance relationship for most of our
3:30
S3: engagement and then a little bit of our married lives too,
3:34
S3: as he took on the Air Force as a career.
3:38
S5: All right. So al, how did you know that she
3:41
S5: was the one?
3:43
S2: That's a very interesting question. And it's always easier in hindsight,
3:47
S2: but we had both dated other people and, uh, we
3:50
S2: I really liked Autumn. I loved her. We were doing
3:55
S2: things together, we were having a good time, and I
3:57
S2: didn't want our relationship to end. And I knew if
4:00
S2: I was going to be going across the country, it
4:02
S2: would probably be the end of the relationship. Uh, so
4:05
S2: we got married and started life together. And I can
4:09
S2: honestly say, though in hindsight, it was the absolute best
4:11
S2: decision of my life.
4:13
S5: Oh yeah.
4:14
S2: I'm the person today that I am because of autumn.
4:17
S5: Well, I think all of us who have healthy marriages
4:20
S5: through the years would agree with that about our own
4:23
S5: marriages as well. All right. How about this military service now,
4:27
S5: how worked with a lot of military couples through the
4:30
S5: years myself. I haven't been in the military. But how
4:33
S5: did your military service affect your marriage?
4:36
S3: Yeah, I'm sure you worked with a lot of military couples, Gary,
4:40
S3: because a lot of us need help, that's for sure.
4:43
S3: You know, this is funny. I had put together a
4:45
S3: list of things that I wanted in a husband and
4:48
S3: the top. I wasn't a Christian at the time, so
4:50
S3: at the top of my list was someone who had
4:53
S3: completed their military service because it was during the Vietnam War,
5:00
S3: and I didn't want to get stuck in that kind
5:01
S3: of a situation. So God has a sense of humor
5:04
S3: and he put Alan in my life. So for the
5:06
S3: next 27 years, I was a military wife. And yes,
5:10
S3: all of the trials and tribulations that come with being
5:15
S3: a military wife fell upon us with the separations, and
5:20
S3: Alan would come home and then, you know, this is
5:22
S3: my house, this is my car, because I've been running
5:25
S3: it while you've been away, and now you're going to
5:27
S3: come home and now you're going to take over. And
5:29
S3: it was a very confusing time because you think you're married,
5:34
S3: but then you're not because you're living the life of
5:37
S3: a single person while the husband's gone. Uh, so we
5:40
S3: had a lot of difficulties in our marriage.
5:43
S5: You know, I think those who have never experienced that
5:46
S5: can only imagine, you know, what that's like, but it's
5:50
S5: very real and the struggles are there.
5:53
S2: You know, I changed once I joined the military. I
5:56
S2: was a pretty carefree guy in college, but once I
5:59
S2: got into the military, I became a workaholic. And that
6:03
S2: didn't help the marriage either. So there was a combination
6:06
S2: of the military and my focus on that 247 that
6:11
S2: really just contributed to a very difficult relationship.
6:15
S5: Yeah, yeah. Well, we're glad you survived those those years.
6:18
S5: And you've gone on not only to have a healthy marriage,
6:21
S5: but to help so many others. So for those who
6:24
S5: don't know about it, what is marriage team and how
6:28
S5: did you come up with that concept?
6:30
S2: Well, as, as I mentioned, or as Adam mentioned, we
6:32
S2: were not Christians when we were married, but after about
6:35
S2: ten years we came to the Lord and that was
6:39
S2: on him first and then me.
6:41
S3: Marriage came about because our marriage was a wreck and
6:45
S3: we could not get it back together. And I always
6:47
S3: like to tell people that because there are people out
6:49
S3: there listening saying, my marriage is a wreck, and I'm going, hey,
6:52
S3: I really get that. We went to everything we could
6:55
S3: that had the word marriage on it. If there was
6:57
S3: a class, we went to it. If there was a book,
6:59
S3: we read it. You know, and some people get it.
7:02
S3: And Alan and I thought we said, oh gosh, we
7:05
S3: were really intelligent people, but we really were stupid because
7:09
S3: for some reason we could not get it going to
7:11
S3: the counselors, talking to a pastor, you know, going to everything.
7:15
S3: They had the word marriage on it. And so, uh,
7:18
S3: gradually as we grew and learned more and tried to
7:23
S3: figure out our own relationship, what was happening around us
7:26
S3: was astonishing. All these people that we knew, we grew up.
7:30
S3: Our kids grew up with. And we went camping with them.
7:32
S3: They were our friends. And then they were coming to
7:35
S3: us and going, well, we just can't make it either.
7:37
S3: You know, we've tried everything. And and they were getting divorced,
7:40
S3: and Alan and I were just astonished that we couldn't
7:43
S3: find anything that would work. What what was the matter?
7:46
S3: And I remember literally, we were in a prayer group
7:50
S3: and we were praying and I was complaining to the
7:52
S3: Lord again, one of my many times about, why don't
7:55
S3: you do something about all these broken marriages? It's breaking
7:58
S3: my heart. And I said out loud, what can I do?
8:03
S3: And it was like I opened the floodgates and God said, finally, autumn,
8:06
S3: you asked the right question and now you're going to
8:09
S3: get the answers. And that was actually the beginning of
8:12
S3: Marriage Team. When Alan and I said yes to the Lord,
8:15
S3: what can we do?
8:17
S2: And part of that became, as we started working more
8:20
S2: with couples, we effectively identified what worked and what didn't work.
8:25
S2: And what we found really resonated and explained. A lot
8:28
S2: of our own difficulties was the playbook analogy, and that
8:33
S2: is that we are born on two different teams, our families,
8:36
S2: and we learn how to do life on that team,
8:38
S2: which includes all our expectations, all of the norms, everything
8:43
S2: we take for granted. All of that stuff. We get married,
8:47
S2: we create a new team, but we bring a role
8:49
S2: play books and we don't share it very effectively. So
8:52
S2: there's a lot of unwritten assumptions and everything that cause
8:54
S2: a lot of problems. So coaching we found is helps
8:58
S2: couples create common agreements, i.e. new plays, so they can
9:03
S2: work together effectively and meet their common goals.
9:08
S3: You know, some people have difficulty understanding what we mean
9:11
S3: when we say play. So I always like to give
9:12
S3: an example. I had a lot of bad plays in
9:15
S3: my playbook, but one of them I had said that
9:17
S3: if Allen loved me and cared about me, he would
9:20
S3: know what I needed and wanted. Well, that play was
9:23
S3: not in Allen's playbook, so consequently, when he did not
9:26
S3: meet my needs, what did that say to Autumn? Oh,
9:29
S3: Allen does not love me and he does not care
9:31
S3: about me. And I had nothing in my playbook that said, oh,
9:34
S3: I get to tell him what I need and want.
9:37
S3: So you can imagine what happened in our relationship.
9:41
S2: The play that I had was that I just assumed
9:44
S2: that life was going to go on as it was,
9:46
S2: and our relationship wasn't going to change. And we all
9:49
S2: know how how messed up play that is when you're married.
9:53
S5: Yeah. Yeah. So what have you seen happen through your ministry,
9:59
S5: your own growth, and then through your ministry to other
10:01
S5: couples through the years?
10:03
S3: Yeah. You know what I love about ministry? And I
10:06
S3: know anyone in ministry can say this is that as
10:09
S3: you're doing the Lord's work and doing what he called
10:12
S3: you to do, your relationship changes or even your, your
10:16
S3: your personhood changes when you're doing the ministry. And that's
10:20
S3: one of the things that happened to Alan. And it's
10:22
S3: one of the things that happens to the coaches in
10:24
S3: marriage team. If you ask them what they like most
10:28
S3: about being coaches, there's two things they'll say. One is
10:31
S3: that it keeps our relationship on track, because we have
10:34
S3: to be practicing the skills and working with couples. And
10:37
S3: the other thing is it's a fabulous ministry that we
10:41
S3: get to do together, and we do it with the
10:44
S3: Holy Spirit. We can see the Holy Spirit change lives.
10:47
S3: And so that's what happened to Alan and I through
10:50
S3: the years. We became much better at marriage ourselves. But
10:56
S3: then also watching how the Lord works. I think those
10:59
S3: are the two things.
11:00
S2: Yeah. And along those lines, the Lord really blessed that work.
11:05
S2: Marriage team now has about 150 coaches and 25 states,
11:09
S2: and they coach couple to couple face to face via technology.
11:15
S2: And probably 70 to 80% of the coaching now is
11:18
S2: done online with very similar results, where lives are being
11:23
S2: transformed and marriages are being healed. So it has been
11:26
S2: amazing to see how the Lord and the Holy Spirit
11:29
S2: have blessed the work, because when we started, we had
11:33
S2: no idea of where it was going to go or
11:35
S2: what it was going to involve.
11:36
S3: You know, Alan, that reminded me too, about when we started,
11:39
S3: it was like we were talking to the Lord about it,
11:41
S3: and it's like, you're a God of transformation. We really
11:45
S3: would like to see transformed lives. So if we start
11:48
S3: this and we don't see any transform lives, we're not
11:50
S3: going to waste your time and we're not going to
11:52
S3: waste our time. So from the very beginning, we we
11:55
S3: did metrics. We have statistics on every single couple and
11:59
S3: every single coach who's ever gone through marriage teams. So
12:01
S3: we can say with certainty that 89% of the couples
12:06
S3: who go through marriage team, who have divorce papers in
12:08
S3: hand or are thinking about divorce, they not only stay together,
12:13
S3: which wasn't a good enough statistic for me. I had
12:16
S3: to go back and go, are you staying together because
12:18
S3: you just don't want to quit or what? No, they're
12:21
S3: staying together because God has transformed their marriages and they
12:24
S3: are in love and and became a team.
12:28
S2: And, you know, I think the secret to that is
12:31
S2: that marriage coaching, I mean, it's biblically based, but we
12:35
S2: teach skills. And the key thing is the coaches help
12:38
S2: the couples implement the skills, because it's one thing to
12:42
S2: have knowledge about what you should do, but if you
12:45
S2: don't do it, it's useless. So in changing plays, it
12:49
S2: is hard to change habits. And that's what coaches do,
12:53
S2: is they help couples change their habits.
12:56
S5: So al and Autumn, earlier in our first session, we
12:58
S5: talked a little bit about your own struggles and your
13:01
S5: own marriage, you know, which later led you to help
13:04
S5: other reach out to help others, whether it's a particularly
13:07
S5: some really low points in your relationship that comes back
13:12
S5: to you as you think about it.
13:14
S3: Well, I try not to think about it, but if
13:16
S3: you're going to make me go there. I will tell
13:21
S3: you one thing. And this is what I've heard from people.
13:24
S3: They say, when we hear you say this autumn, we
13:28
S3: know that there's hope for our own relationship. So this
13:31
S3: is what I'm going to say. There were times in
13:33
S3: my relationship where there were three things that I could do.
13:37
S3: I could pray about it. I could go to counseling,
13:40
S3: I could go to a pastor, or I could change.
13:44
S3: And oh, and the other thing was, or I could
13:47
S3: be miserable the rest of my life. So what was
13:50
S3: I going to choose? Well, I didn't want to be
13:52
S3: miserable the rest of my life, which is what I
13:54
S3: hear people sometimes choose. And I'm telling you, you do
13:57
S3: not have to choose that there's a better way. But
14:00
S3: here's the thing. You have to be willing to change.
14:03
S3: You have to want to change, but you have to
14:06
S3: know how to change. And that was what Marriage Team
14:10
S3: took on, was helping people learn how to change. But
14:14
S3: then having them practice it over and over again until
14:17
S3: it became natural in their lives. It is such a
14:21
S3: joy to watch a couple come at the beginning. They're
14:24
S3: not talking with each other. Their arms are folded, they're
14:26
S3: looking the other direction. And why does it always astonish me?
14:31
S3: Why does it always astonish me that by the fifth
14:34
S3: meeting they're laughing with us. They're smiling, they're talking with
14:37
S3: each other. It's like they don't need us anymore. They're
14:40
S3: having a conversation with each other, and we're just sort
14:43
S3: of sitting and watching it. Um, so that's my encouragement
14:46
S3: for people who think like I did, you have to
14:49
S3: be miserable the rest of your life.
14:52
S5: So when you were going through your, your deeper struggles
14:56
S5: and all, did one of you take the initiative in saying,
14:59
S5: you know, we got to reach out, we've got to
15:00
S5: find help. How did that how did you get reaching
15:04
S5: out for help?
15:05
S3: Yeah, I think Alan was oblivious. I'm going to let
15:08
S3: him say that. I think he was oblivious to my pain,
15:11
S3: but I don't want to talk for him.
15:13
S2: Well, I was oblivious to to Adam's pain. And. But
15:19
S2: it was during the counseling, uh, time when I was
15:22
S2: getting my master's. I just realized that, you know, we
15:25
S2: needed some help. So I suggested to Autumn, and, you know,
15:29
S2: that we get some counseling and we did. And through
15:33
S2: that process, things got better. Uh, we were both willing
15:37
S2: to do it, but I think I actually suggested it
15:40
S2: because I was actually studying about it.
15:42
S5: Yeah. It's nice when we can apply some of the
15:45
S5: things we're learning in the academic setting.
15:48
S3: Yeah, that's very true. You know, Gary, I do want
15:50
S3: to address this though. If there's a a spouse that
15:53
S3: doesn't want to come in is reluctant. Uh, it is amazing.
15:59
S3: All they have to do is show up. I mean,
16:00
S3: if you can get them to show up, the transformation
16:03
S3: can begin. This actually, right now we're coaching a couple.
16:07
S3: And the first three times they came, he was just stoic.
16:12
S3: He has never smiled. He never interacted. He was like
16:16
S3: really afraid kind of to be there. And it was
16:19
S3: amazing to see him find out how non-threatening it was,
16:23
S3: how nobody was going to take a side. We were
16:25
S3: on the side of the relationship, not her side or
16:28
S3: his side. And by the third meeting he has opened
16:31
S3: up just unbelievably so. If you have somebody out there
16:34
S3: that doesn't want to do it, just get them to
16:37
S3: the first meeting.
16:38
S5: HMM. Good advice. The first step.
16:42
S2: Amen.
16:42
S5: So let's talk about this series with Rick and Jane
16:46
S5: in this book. Uh, these are fictional stories that show
16:50
S5: how a marriage can overcome obstacles. Uh, why did you
16:54
S5: choose that fictional format?
16:57
S2: Well, actually, it was interesting that the idea that was spawned, uh,
17:01
S2: while we were visiting, uh, the coast and we were
17:05
S2: talking and writing on a napkin and we said, gee,
17:08
S2: we need something that's simple and easy where people can
17:10
S2: understand marriage coaching. And we said, how about something like
17:13
S2: Dick and Jane? Uh, at the time, I had forgotten
17:17
S2: that Dick and Jane were brother and sister, so hence
17:21
S2: Rick came into the picture.
17:23
S3: But but I love the fact that you said it's fictional. Yeah.
17:26
S3: We like people to believe it's fictional. Rick and Jane
17:29
S3: are Autumn and Alan with all of our foibles. Yeah.
17:34
S3: And so we just put it in a story format
17:36
S3: in a very simple, you know, big print, lots of pictures,
17:39
S3: because we wanted it to be really easy to read
17:42
S3: and that they could identify with that couple, Rick and
17:46
S3: Jane in the story that, oh my goodness, that's us
17:48
S3: in the kitchen or that's us in the car, or
17:51
S3: that's us arguing about the kids. And then they want
17:53
S3: to find out how Rick and Jane handle it. And
17:56
S3: that's where the marriage team coaching skills come in.
17:59
S2: Yeah, that that's the scenario that plays out through all
18:02
S2: eight books, is the coaches help apply the skills, much
18:06
S2: like if they were going to coaching actually with marriage team,
18:09
S2: because the book was written after 20 years of experience,
18:13
S2: the books were of coaching and working with other couples.
18:16
S2: So it has a lot of coaching experiences in it,
18:19
S2: not only from us but from the coaches as well.
18:23
S5: Yeah. So book one is about communication. Why do you
18:27
S5: think communication is the first step to intimacy in a marriage?
18:32
S2: Well, we think it's the first step because you can't
18:36
S2: have an intimate relationship without communication. Communication allows you to
18:42
S2: get to know the other person. And without knowing the
18:46
S2: other person, it is hard to be intimate. There's a
18:49
S2: quote by David Augsburger that says, being heard is so
18:53
S2: close to being loved that most people cannot tell the difference.
18:58
S2: So if you're communicating and the person is feeling heard,
19:02
S2: they feel loved. And when people feel loved, they it
19:06
S2: draws them closer together and it creates intimacy. And I'm
19:10
S2: going to jump ahead a little bit. Seven books. We
19:13
S2: talk about the seven forms of or the eight forms
19:16
S2: of intimacy. So communication is the start. But without communication
19:20
S2: it's really hard to get there.
19:21
S3: So in our book, we have like a quiz that
19:24
S3: you can take that says, you know, how well do
19:26
S3: you listen? And it is amazing when people take that
19:29
S3: quiz because everybody says, oh yeah, we know how to
19:30
S3: listen and we know how to talk. We don't, you know,
19:33
S3: that's not the we're not the problem. It's probably the
19:36
S3: other person that's the problem. But when they take the quiz,
19:39
S3: they begin to realize, oh my goodness, I'm not such
19:41
S3: a great listener. And there's no blame, you know, there's
19:45
S3: no judgment, of course. How do you know how to
19:47
S3: do anything unless you're taught? The Bible says, how will
19:50
S3: they know unless they have a teacher? And so once
19:52
S3: they begin to learn, oh my goodness, I can listen
19:55
S3: to somebody. I can understand somebody, and I don't have
19:59
S3: to agree with them. I mean, that's a huge transformation
20:03
S3: of the mind when people understand you don't have to
20:06
S3: agree in order to understand with someone, it changes the
20:09
S3: way you communicate. So yes, how on earth can you
20:13
S3: have intimacy if you're not being heard, if you're not
20:16
S3: being listened to, if someone's not caring and, and concerned
20:20
S3: about your well-being and. And that's what marriage team skills teach.
20:25
S5: Yeah. You know, I think there's no question about it
20:28
S5: that communication is an absolute necessity if we're going to
20:32
S5: have an intimate marriage. You know, I've sometimes said that, uh,
20:36
S5: what oxygen is to the body, communication is to the relationship.
20:42
S5: It's a necessity. We don't we don't make it without that,
20:45
S5: you know? So in the story, Rick and Jane have
20:48
S5: an argument, and Jane gets angry and leaves the room
20:51
S5: and gives him the silent treatment. Now, why is the
20:55
S5: silent treatment so damaging to a marriage?
20:58
S3: You're talking to the expert silent treatment person right here.
21:01
S3: I know, I know, I can answer that one teacher.
21:04
S5: Uh.
21:06
S3: The silent treatment. Okay. So you know what? That is
21:10
S3: so manipulative. And I didn't know that. It's so controlling.
21:15
S3: It's like you, you see the ability of the other
21:19
S3: person to communicate with you when you do that. And
21:23
S3: it's like a punishment for the other person now sticking
21:28
S3: up for the silent treatment person, because I want to
21:31
S3: give myself some credit here is, again, they don't know
21:35
S3: the damage that it does, and they don't understand the
21:39
S3: manipulation that's occurring. And, and the truth is they don't
21:43
S3: know how to talk or how to speak for themselves.
21:47
S3: They have a lot to say. They just don't know
21:49
S3: how to say it. So again, that's one of the
21:52
S3: things that we like to do in our books is
21:55
S3: teach them how you can talk to someone when you
21:58
S3: have some emotion about something and instead of, you know,
22:02
S3: coming across as attacking, um, or, or verbally abusing someone.
22:08
S3: So yeah, silent treatment, it wouldn't it be nice. This
22:10
S3: is what I tell some people when they come to us.
22:12
S3: Wouldn't it be nice if you never had to do
22:14
S3: that again in your entire life because you learned a
22:16
S3: new skill? Same thing about anger. Wouldn't it be wonderful
22:19
S3: if in your relationship, your team knew exactly what to
22:23
S3: do when. When a person got angry and and you
22:26
S3: knew exactly what the play was and you never had
22:29
S3: to play the old plays again. It's exciting. People want
22:33
S3: to learn, wow, we never have to do that again.
22:36
S3: How do you do that?
22:37
S2: And that's the that's the real key here is that
22:40
S2: the all of the books are written with creating awareness.
22:45
S2: And often that's a self-assessment and then having some simple
22:49
S2: concepts presented and then actually applying them. And in the
22:53
S2: application process, it's equally important. People will make commitments to
22:58
S2: do things, but they're going to fall back into the
23:00
S2: old habits. And if they don't have a way. And
23:04
S2: we call it a relapse reminder. But if they don't
23:06
S2: have a way to get back on track, they're going
23:08
S2: down the rabbit hole again. So they know in advance
23:12
S2: what to say that's going to help bring their teammate
23:16
S2: back around and get them back on the right track.
23:19
S2: And all of that's part of the coaching process and
23:21
S2: what the coaches do.
23:22
S3: Yeah. You know, that is so fun because Alan and
23:25
S3: I have relapsed reminders. We make cards and we put
23:28
S3: them up around the house that remind us what we're
23:30
S3: supposed to do in certain situations. So we have some
23:33
S3: of them on the mirror in our bathroom. I'm going
23:35
S3: to tell you this story, okay? We're going to be
23:39
S3: vulnerable here because I'm probably not going to meet most
23:41
S3: of you, but this is vulnerable. So we have these
23:44
S3: things up on the bathroom wall. And our our grandson
23:47
S3: was spending the night here. And he, he's reading these
23:50
S3: things while he's brushing his teeth in the morning. And
23:52
S3: he stops and he looks at me and he says, grandma,
23:54
S3: he says, these things sound really good. I don't always
23:57
S3: see these things happening in your house.
24:03
S6: So talk about.
24:04
S3: Somebody keeping you accountable.
24:06
S5: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So in the earlier days when
24:09
S5: she would give you the silent treatment, uh, how how
24:13
S5: did you respond to that?
24:15
S2: Well, you know, it just made me mad. And I
24:17
S2: didn't have a good play for dealing with it either.
24:19
S2: I would typically initially raise my voice and yell and,
24:23
S2: and complain that we just needed to solve it. And
24:26
S2: I'd get real emphatic about it and everything, and that
24:29
S2: just drove her farther away. So, you know, we were
24:32
S2: both extremely frustrated. And then I would go off huffing
24:36
S2: and puffing, but in my playbook, my dad would get mad,
24:41
S2: he would blow up, but then he'd get over it
24:43
S2: really quickly. Autumn didn't get over it as quickly, so
24:48
S2: I would have it in the past and want to
24:50
S2: move forward, and Autumn would be still harboring those those
24:53
S2: hurt feelings.
24:54
S5: Yeah.
24:56
S1: This is the building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
25:01
S1: Al and Autumn Rae have written our featured resource today.
25:04
S1: It's titled Rick and Jane. Learn to listen and Talk.
25:07
S1: Find out more at Building relationships.us. Plus, you can take
25:12
S1: a free assessment of your love language and see when
25:15
S1: Gary's coming to your area for a seminar. Just go
25:18
S1: to building relationships.us or find us at five Love languages.com.
25:26
S5: So, Alan Autumn, we're talking about communication. Uh, is there
25:30
S5: a secret to effective communication?
25:34
S2: Well, um, there is. And let me just expand a
25:38
S2: little bit on it before we get to the exact secret.
25:41
S2: Anyone who's gone to church for any length of time
25:44
S2: knows what we should be doing. So it's not that
25:47
S2: we don't know what we should be doing. People also
25:50
S2: also say it is hard work. Uh, marriage. But they
25:54
S2: don't tell you what the work is. So the secret
25:57
S2: here is the is the secret to both the hard
26:00
S2: work and what to do. And that is to when
26:04
S2: our buttons are being pushed to hold our emotions in
26:07
S2: check and listen to understand our teammate. If we can
26:12
S2: do that, we can defuse the situation and we gain
26:16
S2: the information. We need to come up with a collaborative
26:20
S2: solution to whatever the issue is. Unfortunately, it's extremely hard
26:26
S2: to hold our emotions in check. And that's where coaching
26:30
S2: can really help. Because the coaches facilitate the process and
26:35
S2: will help to lower the temperature so that couples are
26:39
S2: actually using the skills. And when the skills are used,
26:42
S2: it's remarkable how that changes the dynamic.
26:45
S3: You know, I'm going to give you an example of
26:47
S3: our own relationship here and how it works. Because oftentimes
26:51
S3: it doesn't work immediately. But here you have to practice
26:55
S3: the play over and over again. And so in our relationship,
26:58
S3: I will be talking to Alan and Alan will get
27:01
S3: frustrated with what I'm saying. And of course, I can
27:03
S3: see the body language. Now, in the old days, I
27:06
S3: would say, there you go again. You know, you're getting frustrated.
27:09
S3: This this conversation is going to go downhill. And of course,
27:12
S3: it goes downhill. But when you learn a different play,
27:15
S3: it's like Alan and we we learn. Alan told me
27:19
S3: what I can say to him to get him to
27:21
S3: respond differently. So I will say his words. Alan, I
27:26
S3: notice that you're getting frustrated. This is what I'm seeing.
27:29
S3: You know, you're you're breathing heavily. Um, you know, you're
27:32
S3: interrupting your facial expression looks frustrated. And, and I'll say
27:38
S3: I am moving away from the conversation when I see that.
27:42
S3: And I know we both don't want that. So could
27:46
S3: we get back on track? Okay. And then you expect
27:49
S3: that you'd be able to get back on track. But
27:51
S3: because you're so mired in your emotions, oftentimes you're not.
27:55
S3: So Alan will continue. And this is not against him.
27:59
S3: This is not a criticism. This is just how our
28:01
S3: relationship is. He will still be frustrated. And the conversation,
28:05
S3: I will feel like pulling away. So I say the
28:08
S3: same thing over again. Just like you would practice a
28:11
S3: play in basketball or football or anything, you just say
28:14
S3: the same thing over again and I will watch my
28:17
S3: dear husband and I will see him. He will take
28:20
S3: a breath. He will go, ah! And it just resets him.
28:25
S3: And we will have an adult communication just because we
28:28
S3: know how to stop it before it goes south.
28:32
S2: And what I had to learn in that process was
28:34
S2: that it didn't matter how I was seeing the situation,
28:38
S2: it only mattered how Autumn was experiencing it. So when
28:42
S2: she would say that I might not initially see it,
28:45
S2: and therefore she'd have to say it a couple 1
28:48
S2: or 2 times more. But then when I realized that
28:51
S2: that was what the dynamic was, that's when the deep
28:54
S2: breath came and I could reset and focus on not
28:58
S2: being frustrated and, and using the skills.
29:02
S5: I think a lot of our listeners are can identify
29:05
S5: with what you are, what you all are describing here
29:09
S5: and there saying, oh, I need to get those birds down.
29:12
S6: Yeah, we call.
29:13
S3: Them magic words.
29:14
S5: Yeah. Magic. Magic words. Yeah. So what makes a marital
29:18
S5: communication so hard compared to just talking with a friend?
29:23
S6: Yeah.
29:24
S3: Well, you don't live with a friend, so you don't
29:27
S3: have all the same frustrations. The the minutia that bothers
29:31
S3: you with a, with a teammate that you live with
29:33
S3: is not the same as what you have with a friend.
29:36
S3: And because you're in this intimate relationship with someone and
29:43
S3: share all the foibles day in and day out, that's
29:48
S3: what makes the communication difficult. You will say things to
29:51
S3: your spouse that you will not say to a friend.
29:55
S3: And I think they push more buttons. It's just in
29:59
S3: more of an emotional situation than it is with a friend.
30:02
S3: So that's why you don't have to really learn a
30:05
S3: playbook with a friend, but you need to learn how
30:08
S3: to change your plays when you're in a relationship.
30:11
S2: And I think also the fact that for most of us,
30:15
S2: our spouse is the most important person in our lives.
30:19
S2: And therefore, if they say something that might be critical,
30:22
S2: it becomes very hurtful. And then we respond emotionally to
30:27
S2: what we've heard. And a friend is probably going to
30:31
S2: be a little bit more sensitive to that. And they're
30:34
S2: not going to be as frank and maybe as as
30:38
S2: vocal about those foibles as your teammate is. For all
30:43
S2: the reasons I mentioned. So I think that therein lies
30:47
S2: the difference is we place an awful lot of value
30:49
S2: on what our teammate says, and maybe not so much
30:53
S2: on what a friend says.
30:54
S3: I'm thinking of something that someone said to us a
30:57
S3: while ago, and I just want to share it for
30:59
S3: people out there who have been struggling for years and
31:02
S3: years and years. At a conference, someone in the audience said,
31:06
S3: do you wish that you had learned this earlier in
31:09
S3: your relationship? And I had to stop and think about it.
31:12
S3: And my answer is no, I'm not, because I became
31:16
S3: the I like the person I've become, and I love
31:19
S3: the person Alan has become. And we would not be
31:22
S3: these people if we hadn't gone through the trials that
31:25
S3: we've gone through and learned what we did, what we learned.
31:28
S3: So for anybody out there who's really struggling and go, oh,
31:32
S3: I wish it were like this, I wish it were
31:33
S3: like this. Maybe you're going through this so that you
31:37
S3: could hear this broadcast so that now you can take
31:41
S3: a step in the right direction.
31:43
S5: So how does coaching, marriage coaching? How does it work
31:48
S5: and how is it different from counseling or mentoring?
31:52
S2: Well, there are very some, some very specific differences, uh,
31:57
S2: in coaching. The coaches view the couple as the expert
32:01
S2: on their relationship. Now, it may be a dysfunctional relationship,
32:05
S2: but they know when she sighs or she does whatever.
32:08
S2: What that means. Whereas the coaches may not. So the
32:12
S2: couple's expert on the relationship, and as such, they're the
32:16
S2: only ones that can fix it. The coach is the
32:19
S2: expert on the process, the process of coaching, of asking questions,
32:23
S2: of sharing observations, of reflecting back what they're hearing. All
32:28
S2: of those good coaching skills, which are also good counseling skills.
32:33
S2: So the coaches are a master of that. But the
32:36
S2: key to coaching is the job description of the coach
32:40
S2: is to help the couple create new agreements and relapses,
32:46
S2: so that they can move forward together to replace that
32:49
S2: old playbook with something that's going to work for them,
32:53
S2: because they've become aware of the dynamics that are going on,
32:56
S2: and they really want to change now. Change is a
33:00
S2: hard thing. Some people you think want to change, but
33:03
S2: for whatever reason, they're incapable of changing. Things that make
33:07
S2: people incapable of changing include abusive relationships, addictions, ongoing unrepentant affairs,
33:16
S2: and untreated mental health issues. When those things are present,
33:22
S2: coaching will not work and marriage team, for instance, will
33:26
S2: make referrals to for professional help to deal with those
33:29
S2: issues before a couple goes into coaching. So that's what
33:33
S2: coaching does. Counseling couples are trained with extensive training to
33:38
S2: deal with many of those issues that we talked about.
33:41
S2: And they have a different skill set. So we train
33:46
S2: lay couples to be coaches and they get amazing results
33:50
S2: working with the Holy Spirit through the process. When it
33:53
S2: comes to mentoring, Mentoring is more about an older, wiser
34:00
S2: person sharing their life with a younger couple, and that
34:04
S2: the experiences that they have will help the couple have
34:07
S2: a better relationship. Now older and wiser people, they may
34:12
S2: be old and wise in their relationship, but when they
34:15
S2: tell us what works for them, it may very well
34:17
S2: not work for us. And if it doesn't work for us, well,
34:21
S2: it was just bad advice. In coaching, couples make their
34:26
S2: own agreements, so if it doesn't work for them, they
34:29
S2: own it. And that ownership is really an important part
34:33
S2: of the dynamic for change, because then the coaches will say,
34:37
S2: what didn't work? What could you do differently? And they
34:40
S2: will help couples figure out what they want to do next.
34:44
S2: So mentoring feels good. People come alongside. It's encouraging. There
34:49
S2: may be a Bible study involved. A book involved, a study.
34:55
S2: but it doesn't have the same dynamic as coaching.
34:58
S3: And one of the things that's different about coaching is
35:01
S3: it's couple to couple. So you're going to get the
35:04
S3: role modeling. Um, and you're going to have people who
35:07
S3: can identify with either the husband or the wife. And
35:10
S3: it really works its magic that way because you have
35:12
S3: a couple doing it.
35:14
S5: I can, I can see that. Can you share some
35:17
S5: real life stories of transformation that you all have seen
35:21
S5: in your own coaching or coaching of others?
35:25
S3: Oh, there are so many as as I said before,
35:28
S3: God has got a transformation. And let me just share
35:31
S3: this with you, Gary. It's so funny. After all of
35:34
S3: these years and all these couples that we've coached, the
35:37
S3: couples will come to us. And the first meeting, I mean,
35:40
S3: we get couples who are really a wreck. I mean,
35:43
S3: just like Alan and I were. And after the first session,
35:46
S3: Alan and I will look at each other and I
35:48
S3: go and go, there's no hope. These couple, they're just
35:51
S3: not going to make it. Why on earth do we
35:54
S3: do that? You know, almost every time these these wrecks
35:58
S3: come to us and then we watch God do his work.
36:02
S3: And I do want to share with people that we
36:05
S3: work with couples who aren't Christians. And many of them,
36:09
S3: it's amazing, have come to a faith because they've worked
36:12
S3: with us. But yeah, several people come to mind and
36:15
S3: there was a couple that was divorced and they came
36:18
S3: to us because they heard that possible reconciliation could occur.
36:22
S3: And over the sessions, our sessions are at least two
36:27
S3: hours long. Uh, it takes that long for couples to,
36:31
S3: I guess, uh, get into the flow of what needs
36:35
S3: to occur. But we watched this couple grow in back
36:40
S3: in love, uh, over the about 8 to 12 weeks,
36:44
S3: I think it was. And, and they remarried. It was
36:47
S3: very exciting. And just, just over and over again. I mean,
36:52
S3: all of these couples go through my mind.
36:54
S2: The one couple that comes to my mind is a
36:57
S2: very accomplished couple. Um, they owned three businesses. They operated
37:02
S2: them together and they were just at odds. Their personalities clashed.
37:08
S2: They had some different values. I mean, they were both Christians,
37:11
S2: but some personal value differences about appearances, about what people thought.
37:18
S2: And it was causing a lot of problems in the
37:21
S2: course of that coaching. And coaches create an environment where
37:25
S2: the Holy Spirit can work. They lower the temperature. But
37:28
S2: the husband felt safe enough to share that he had
37:31
S2: been abused, sexually abused as a child. And that changed
37:36
S2: the entire dynamic. The wife all of a sudden had
37:39
S2: insight that she didn't have a new degree of empathy.
37:42
S2: He decided he was going to get some counseling for
37:45
S2: that trauma while going through coaching. And that was the
37:49
S2: turning point in their relationship. And it all came about
37:53
S2: because of the skills and the lowering of the temperature
37:58
S2: and the caring relationship. And the couple was had had
38:03
S2: the opportunity to get in touch with what was really
38:06
S2: the underlying issue. And we often say the issue is
38:10
S2: not the issue. The presenting problem will lead to what
38:15
S2: is really going on beneath the surface. But that explained
38:18
S2: a lot of his anger and a lot of the
38:21
S2: things that happened that that they were unaware of what
38:24
S2: the cause was.
38:25
S3: I was going to share the story of the couple,
38:28
S3: that their kids were watching their dynamic change as they
38:31
S3: were writing out their plays and posting them around the house.
38:35
S3: And the daughter one day wanted to ask her dad something,
38:38
S3: and she calls her her mom at work. And she said, oh,
38:40
S3: I want to ask dad this, but I'm afraid to
38:42
S3: because I know he'll get mad at me. Can you
38:44
S3: tell me where those magic words are that you've been using.
38:50
S3: So it carries over into the whole family dynamic.
38:56
S2: In another situation where we were doing coach training, we
38:59
S2: had taught the communication skills and the very next day
39:02
S2: we always asked for, you know, what kind of feedback
39:05
S2: did you have? How did they work and everything? And
39:07
S2: the wife shared that one of their children, who had
39:11
S2: been a juvenile delinquent in detention and everything, had come
39:14
S2: out complaining about something, and she used the listening skills.
39:18
S2: And rather than having the conversation end with the kid
39:21
S2: turning around and walking away, she actually physically drew him
39:25
S2: closer into the room as she listened to understand and
39:28
S2: reflect back what she was hearing. So she said that
39:31
S2: was like a miracle, that they had never had a
39:35
S2: conversation like that, that she could remember. So the skills
39:38
S2: translate to the family as well.
39:41
S5: Alan Autumn. We were talking about communication and just practical things.
39:46
S5: So is there one practical tool that couples can apply
39:50
S5: today to improve communication?
39:53
S3: Well, we have we always go to listening. Listening is
39:57
S3: the very first skill that we teach, because you can
39:59
S3: change the dynamic of any conversation. If you stop and listen,
40:05
S3: people go, oh, I know how to listen, but they
40:08
S3: really don't know how to listen. So I'm going to
40:09
S3: give you a quick tutorial here and how to listen.
40:13
S3: So when somebody speaks, you don't talk. Number one, listening
40:18
S3: is you don't talk and you don't think about what
40:21
S3: you're going to say. You concentrate on the words that
40:24
S3: the other person is saying. And when they take a breath,
40:27
S3: you say to them, let me make sure I'm understanding
40:30
S3: what you're saying. Is this what you're saying? And you
40:33
S3: repeat back in your own words with some emotion what
40:37
S3: you think the other person is saying. And then you
40:39
S3: stop and you say, is that right? Is that what
40:42
S3: you want me to understand and wait and give the
40:45
S3: other person an opportunity to say yes? That's what I
40:48
S3: want you to understand. Or no. This is what I
40:50
S3: want you to understand. And then you listen again and
40:53
S3: you go through the same thing, and then they you go,
40:56
S3: is there anything else after they go, no, you've got it.
40:59
S3: And they go, is there anything else you want me
41:01
S3: to understand? Very simple tool to use, but it will
41:07
S3: change your relationship if you begin to do that with
41:10
S3: one another.
41:11
S2: And I might just add that listening assessment is in
41:13
S2: that first book that we've been talking about.
41:16
S5: That's great. I think what you just shared is so simple,
41:20
S5: but so powerful. Yeah. Let me ask this because I
41:24
S5: have been on a church staff for years and many
41:27
S5: of our listeners are in churches. Have you seen churches
41:31
S5: use this series to strengthen marriages in their congregation?
41:36
S2: Uh, yes. And, uh, we actually wrote a facilitator's guide
41:40
S2: and a workbook to go along with the series, and
41:44
S2: the early results were in. And in that case, 42%
41:50
S2: of the couples agreed and 58% strongly agreed that the
41:55
S2: lessons provided practical tools that we can apply in our relationship.
42:00
S2: So the Facilitator's guide is written like our coaching materials
42:05
S2: with the facilitator information right there. So it's integrated in
42:10
S2: with what the couple seeing in their couple workbook, and
42:13
S2: it makes it really easy to implement. People go through
42:16
S2: the books and they get an opportunity to talk about it,
42:19
S2: share their experiences, and build on it with one another.
42:23
S3: Anecdotally, we have heard that it changes the dynamic in churches.
42:28
S3: When people go through this and they learn these skills
42:32
S3: and they have business meetings, they begin to talk differently
42:35
S3: to each other. They begin to listen differently. They begin
42:38
S3: to understand different personalities and and begin to appreciate differences
42:43
S3: in people simply because these are all parts of the
42:46
S3: books that people read. So it was interesting to us
42:50
S3: how you could change the dynamic of a church just
42:52
S3: by having people read the books and go through a class.
42:55
S2: And that was shared with us by the pastor.
42:57
S5: Oh, yeah. I think you're exactly right. I can see that.
43:00
S5: So now we've been talking one about this particular book
43:03
S5: and on communication, but what are other topics that you
43:07
S5: deal with in other other books in this series?
43:10
S2: Sure. The Conquering Anger is the second book, and then
43:14
S2: that's followed by forgiving, which is really a big breakthrough
43:18
S2: for many, many couples. That's a very important book. Uh,
43:22
S2: resolving conflict, solving problems in appreciating differences. I think we
43:28
S2: often don't appreciate the differences. They become irritants. And that
43:31
S2: creates a lot of strife in marriage. And it's something
43:34
S2: that really should be appreciated. Yeah. And then from there,
43:37
S2: it is cultivating intimacy. And the final book is called
43:41
S2: The Secret. And Rick and Jane, like Alan Autumn, were
43:45
S2: not Christians when they got married. But through this process
43:49
S2: of coaching and being with a Christian couple, that caused
43:52
S2: them to ask the questions and to later accept the
43:56
S2: Lord in their lives. So that's sort of the wrap
43:59
S2: up to the series.
44:00
S3: It's so true, though, that many couples, you know, that
44:03
S3: aren't Christians that come to us, they'll watch how we
44:06
S3: relate to each other, and they'll watch us role modeling,
44:09
S3: and they'll look at the material in the books. And
44:12
S3: it's all very practical. But there's scripture in there, so
44:15
S3: it's biblically based. But they do come to that questioning
44:20
S3: about what's different, what's different about you, what's different about
44:24
S3: this material than all the other things we've been through?
44:27
S3: And that's why the eighth book is the most exciting
44:30
S3: book for us, is that that is the secret to
44:34
S3: the relationship that you're looking for is Jesus Christ.
44:38
S5: But I hear you saying that non-Christians can work through
44:42
S5: this series because these skills are things that they can learn, uh,
44:47
S5: even as they're on the road to coming to Christ.
44:50
S5: Is that right?
44:51
S2: Absolutely. You said it very well, Gary. The the books
44:55
S2: are skill focused and application oriented. Occasionally in some of
45:00
S2: the books there is some scripture, but coaches are trained
45:04
S2: to address scripture based on where the couple is in
45:09
S2: their faith faith journey. So, for instance, we have coached non-Christians,
45:13
S2: we've coached atheists. And when it comes to the scripture,
45:17
S2: we say, hey, let's look at just what the Bible
45:19
S2: has to say about it and take it at face value.
45:23
S2: A harsh word stirs up wrath. What do you think
45:25
S2: when you're yelling at your wife or calling her names?
45:29
S2: How's that working for you? So truth is truth, and
45:33
S2: you just use it to sort of inform, to create
45:36
S2: a perspective, and then you move on to the application. So,
45:39
S2: you know, if that's not what you want, what do
45:41
S2: you do want to do differently?
45:44
S5: Well, I like that. I like that reality that these
45:47
S5: principles are true and they will help people wherever they
45:50
S5: are in their spiritual journey, but it's focusing on their
45:54
S5: marriage relationship. And I think I certainly agree with you. Ultimately,
45:59
S5: we all need the help of God in our marriages.
46:02
S5: So let me thank you for being with us today.
46:04
S5: Thank you for putting together this series and for the
46:07
S5: program you have, and the marriage team and the coaches
46:12
S5: continue doing what you're doing. And I hope our listeners
46:16
S5: will not only hear the program today, but will secure
46:19
S5: reach out and secure this material because start with the
46:23
S5: with the one on communication, go through the others. I mean,
46:26
S5: this is a really great journey to have the kind
46:29
S5: of marriage that that you wanted to have when you
46:32
S5: got married. So thanks again for being with us today.
46:35
S3: Well, we thank you. And it was a joy and
46:37
S3: a pleasure to be with you.
46:38
S6: Yes.
46:39
S4: What an encouraging conversation with al and Autumn. The book,
46:43
S4: if you go to Building relationships.us, is Rick and Jane.
46:46
S4: Learn to Listen and Talk, written by al and Autumn Ray.
46:50
S4: Find out more building relationships.us.
46:54
S5: And next week. If you're tired of being judged or
46:58
S5: you want to stop judging yourself, we have encouragement for you.
47:02
S1: Shannon Popkin joins us to talk about finding mercy for
47:05
S1: yourself and others. Before we go, let me thank our
47:08
S1: production team, Steve Wick and Janice backing. Building relationships with
47:12
S1: Doctor Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in
47:16
S1: association with Moody Publishers, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
47:20
S1: Thanks for listening.