Latest / Books4Guys / Writing Fiction, Building Worlds, and Beating Imposter Syndrome | Jason Kristopher

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Writing Fiction, Building Worlds, and Beating Imposter Syndrome | Jason Kristopher · Books4Guys

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds familiar.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of like Seaside, Rosemary, that whole 30A area.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: 30A is is wonderful.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: We went down there, we actually saw the Tribute Show House.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you drove past there and uh we had a great great time out on 30A.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a little more northwest, but uh Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: We usually so we Navar, you probably remember Navarre beaches.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: I do exactly.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're about 30 minutes-ish uh north west northwest of there.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: I could basically throw a rock and hit the Alabama state line.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: No, I know where you're at.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: But Jason, dude, I'm so glad I had to push record, man.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: We've already been talking about just life, man.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're both busy slammed crazy stuff.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: We got talking dogs moving, traveling, and uh already just hitting it off with just you know normal life stuff.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: But uh man, I'm excited to talk with you because you you've written several books, but I got introduced to you through your series, the Dying of the Light series, which you know, I see uh I see the word zombie, and I was already like, Yep, I'm in.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot of people that uh watch and listen to this, they'll hear they'll hear uh a book about zombies, they're gonna be like, all right, well, what's this about?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so, man, I would love for you, Jason, just tell tell me a little bit about yourself, just kind of how you got interested in writing, and then just obviously just about your book series, and and I believe that particular series is a four-book series, and you're working on other series already, too, other books, but but dude, just just what's going on in your world and how did you get to where you're at now?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've been I've been writing, uh, I was recently going through some stuff from my mom who uh passed away a couple years ago, and I was going through a bunch of old stuff like moms keep stuff, right?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh I realized that I'd been writing even longer than I thought when I found some stuff from like fourth grade.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I found uh an actual story.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And kids are like writers are like, well, I've been writing since I was a little kid, but this is an actual story with a beginning, a middle, and an end.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, wait a minute.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't any good, but that doesn't matter.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I started something.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been writing a very, very, very long time, and it it's mostly about just getting the ideas up here onto the page.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's my my Patreon is actually called the fire in our heads because that's I I was at a uh Comic Balooza one year and somebody said, Why do you write?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the other panelists said, Well, I have to get the fire out of my head onto the page.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Can I can I steal that?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and I did.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that's that's why I write, and uh I can't not tell stories.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: And every time I tell a story, there's space for some for a new idea to come in.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I just realized I have uh 280, 290 ideas for books or stories uh as it stands right now.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got a long way to go.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the dying of the light was the first one though.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh End, as you as you can see right there, is the first in the Dying of the Light series.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I was trying to be clever.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I I called the first one End and the third one beginning, because you know, it's the end of the world and then the beginning of the new world.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but there is a a short story collection that goes along with that.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of the if the movie if the books were movies, it's the deleted scenes from those books.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was blown away.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody who uh reviewed the first one, which is it's not it's not bad, but the third one is the best.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you know, it gets better as time goes along, as I become a more seasoned writer.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody called the first one the best zombie book since World War Z.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I went, oh, okay, sure.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I met Max Brooks at uh Comic-Con in 2011, and uh and I happened to mention that because I had questions about the movie and just about writing and everything because I was brand new baby writer at the time.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and he was not he was not as thrilled about that as I was.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Comics.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's a little intense, but he's a he's a nice guy.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So uh but I thought that was that's that's like all over everywhere that I can put it, you know, because it's such a good review.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's uh it's a good zombie series.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it zombies are are my my go-to horror.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: I can't really uh I can't really watch zombi horror movies unless they're zombie movies for some reason that just tripped some trigger in my brain that's like, okay, this isn't real.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's uh I always tell people if you like The Walking Dead, you'll like this series because it's not about the zombies.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: It has zombies, but it's not about the zombies, right?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: So just like The Walking Dead, the title isn't about the zombies, it's about the people walking through that.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are any dead and they don't realize.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that's that's why I tell people about the the zombie books.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: But uh as you said, there's there's so much more.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've got so many more stories I've got to tell.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Man, that's awesome.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, and that I I think that's what I like about your books is that it's it's not just zombies.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's stories in there that's that's you know, obviously zombies are a part of it, like you said, but as a fan of The Walking Dead, as many people are a fan of The Walking Dead, it's good to know that you kind of describe it that way.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, hey, it's a book, there's zombies in it, but it there's more to it, which is you know gonna make it that much more entertaining for those that aren't just looking for some zombie apocalypse, you know, beat down type of thing.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: But Jason, so you said you had 290 ideas, a running list of notes and thoughts on what you want to write about.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: How do you, you know, obviously this is you know a series and it takes time to put that together.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: How do you keep yourself focused on, you know, one storyline and maybe you're working on a few, but like how do you keep yourself focused long enough to get through a series when you've got so many more ideas that are just popping up in your head and you're just continuing to, you know, build a running list of things that you want to write about and accomplish and publish?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the thing for me is that uh the way that I approach my career as a writer is that I don't have to write, I get to write.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and so that's that's a pretty cool deal.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like when my when my partner Jen said, hey, you don't you don't need to get a another job.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're fine.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're making enough money to to do what you need to do.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Go write, go be a full-time author.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, whoa, I get to do this every day.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: I get to to sit down at my desk and and write.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I did learn something with the zombie series.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I won't write the same series back to back to back.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I got burnt out on zombies for a long time because of that, because I went from book one to book two, three.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And some people can do that.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't work for me.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: So what what I do is I approach things more like Jim Butcher does, and I'll sort of rotate between the different series that I'm writing or the different stories that I've got ideas for.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So right now I'm writing my military science fiction uh series, The Forgotten War, which is all about genetically engineered dog.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, think uh three days of the condoor meets Jason Bourne.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so that's that's what I'm writing right now.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And when I get done with that, I'll probably shift to my fantasy series.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I get done with one in that, I'll shift to maybe editing one of the books that I've got that's actually finished but needs to be completely edited.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I what I do is I keep myself, I keep things changing up things so that I don't get too bored.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not even bored, it's so that I don't get burned out.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: I learned that lesson pretty quickly.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's interesting.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: So all all of your all of your books and all of your writing are fiction, correct?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so far.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's interesting because I'm always curious to know, you know, they're they're so different, obviously, like nonfiction, a lot of like factual studying, you're you're you're putting things together that that information you can find.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Fiction, it's all your personal creativity, and you get to you can make up whatever you want.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: But do you ever find yourself like needing, I guess I'm asking this as far as like, do you have a peer group or do you have like a group of authors that you kind of like bounce ideas off of to see what they think?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or like, because I know sometimes someone described this to me who has written both, and they're like, writing fiction can sometimes be while it's creative, it can also be kind of lonely because you're you're just you and your own thoughts and and that, and you're not really interacting with other people, whereas the non-fiction, sometimes you're having to double check things, or you're asking people for this and that.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious just to know, like, what what are the the passion pieces and benefits of writing fiction for you and like what makes it exciting?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And do you ever find yourself where you're like have you know, where you're like, I need to be around some people and get some ideas or like bounce off this thought.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what is that just that process like for you?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I do have I have a critique group.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, it's we're small and um we we know each other really well, some really good friends.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um before the breakout or before we start recording, I was talking about my friend in Houston.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: He's he's one of the people in that group.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um my one of the uh authors that I actually publish through my publishing company, George Wright Page, is uh is also one of those authors.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're kind of known quantities to each other, so we know what our level of writing is.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so um I do have a critique group which helps me stay on on target, so to speak.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that we're we're saying, oh, this is a bad idea, we never we never do that.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're just like, I know you can do this because we've seen it.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: This critique group's been going on for close to two dozen years, two decades now, I guess.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and we've published, I think, 40 books out of this critique group.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, we we know that level and that that is really useful to me, uh, to be able to say, okay, I I have all these trees.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Can you help me see the forest?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or or vice versa, you know.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um, I also do a lot of uh I do a lot of podcasts and I do a lot of um teaching and I go to seminars.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's a particular seminar that I go to every year called Superstars Writing Seminars in in Colorado in February.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I love going to that because just the energy, the creative energy, just confuses that whole seminar and that that keeps me buoyed all year long.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but it it can definitely be a lonely process.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um for me, it's my imagination is the way my imagination works is that I basically am writing the movies that I see in my head.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not as lonely as it might be because I'm basically watching a movie.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm I'm using my skill to take the movie that I see in my head and put it on the page in such a way as you see the same movie.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's where my skill comes in.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: But that means that I'm I'm connecting in a pretty real way with my characters, with with the readers who give me feedback, and you know, it can be a little lonely, I guess, if you're sitting there just writing all day, but I also have a very supportive partner and I have a lot of you know good friends, and I I don't make it 14 or 16 hour writing sessions either.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that really helps.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: I that was I'm sorry, go ahead.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, I was just saying that was just a kind of a fresh question off my head.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was meeting with someone earlier today.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking about, and I'm not like a creative person, I'm more of like process and and this, but uh we were talking about how, you know, just like the workforce today, people, you know, remote work, and then people like want to actually get around people again just to get spark ideas, get energy, creativity.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And as someone who, again, I don't I don't sit down and write and create things.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always curious.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was just curious to know like what that's like.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Do you always have just your own thoughts or do you get around people that kind of like influence ideas?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And do you guys kind of bounce things around?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's just different than like what I'm used to.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of that at at Superstars and at some of the other conventions and conferences that I go to, which that that sort of uh mini zeitgeist of energy that you get from from being around similar people.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: But the people I've surrounded myself with in my personal life are very creative generally.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so I get I get a lot of that just every day.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I realize how lucky I am with that.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the reasons why I I like doing podcasts and I like teaching it at seminars and conventions and stuff, because I I one of the things that I love to be able to do as established author is is to help people, you know, to show them that you're not alone.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it it may feel like a very lonely thing, but you're not the only one out there struggling.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're not the only one who's been there in those trenches and and doing this.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one of the the best things I like about my career is being able to not only tell great stories that people connect with, but help other writers do the same thing and connect with them at the at the same time.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I was thinking, so I'm I'm based in Nashville, so you know, music town.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I learned I love Nashville.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Been there many times.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I learned what like a what a round is where you know writers get together and play and they just kind of create music together and feed off of each other.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I wonder if like fiction writing's similar.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: You get around is people that write similar styles, and you guys kind of just you know write something out and kind of bounce those things off each other to see what sticks.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one of my my favorite things is it's not so it's not quite the same thing because music is you know something you play and then boom, it's done.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, not boom, it's done, but you know what I mean.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh one of my favorite things to do is write in the treats.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we get a lot of uh you know, five or six or even ten authors, and we go rent a big house somewhere.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: I know it seems silly to just go rent a house and then sit there working on your laptop all weekend or whatever, but uh the energy that you get, you know, just at meals, you're like, oh, I tried this thing and it really worked, or I trying to wrap my brain around this.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: I also really enjoyed there's a workshop in Kansas that I go to occasionally, and when I can find the time, because it's a two-week workshop in Kansas and in July.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: I love I love Lawrence.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Lawrence is a great little town, but it takes a while to get there.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I say this as a Floridian, it is hot in Lawrence, Kansas.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but the the point of that is that we get to be around people who are genuinely trying to help you tell your story better.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Just like the musicians who go around, it's it's working together for a goal.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a zero-sum game.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you write a better song or if I write a better story, it's it's not gonna diminish either of us, you know, in any way.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one of the things I really like about this industry and and about this job is is you know, that sort of connection.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what it comes back to with with so much of my fiction is is connection with the readers or with other writers or you know, just whoever, or even sometimes with myself when I'm like, oh, that's a really cool thing that I did.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a pretty neat feeling.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty cool.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Besides just, you know, just fine-tuning your craft and writing better, what are some things you've noticed just within yourself or with your style of writing that has changed or improved over the years?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Are there things you look at now and go, man, 15 years ago, I I that would this would have sucked, you know?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I've you know, I've learned enough to know how to style it this way.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, again, as someone who doesn't know maybe some of those integral parts of writing a fiction novel, what are some things that you're just kind of proud of and that you've seen change over your writing career?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think we all would get better as we practice things, you know, and it's the whole 10,000 hours of practice makes you an expert, right?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I look, I look at this book now and it's not bad.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's pretty good, but it's clearly a first novel, right?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I go and I I page through it, I'm like, oh, I would have done that so differently.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, oh, this is no, just what what as a reader reading it?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, that's pretty cool, you know, and it's and it's a good book.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: But when you get to the second book, my friend just read the whole series for the first time, and he he said, I could see measurable difference between the craft and the the first, second, and third book.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's why I always tell people the first book is good, the third book is great, because I've learned so much more.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And even now, I mean the third book came out in I think 2016.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: So this is that's 10 years ago.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I've learned so much more now in those 10 years that what I'm writing now is on a completely different level than even book three.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: One thing I really liked about that is that imagine what the stories I'm going to be telling 10 years from now are are going to be like, how good those are gonna be.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh eventually I I'll I'm hoping that I'll finally be able to be like, yeah, I'm a pretty good writer.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: I believe it.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, instead of I as you probably have heard many, many times, uh, writers have this condition that we we succumb to uh on the daily, I would say, called imposter syndrome.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, uh one of my favorite stories is about imposter syndrome is actually this guy's standing, he's a pretty famous guy, and he's standing in the back of this room to all these, you know, luminaries, uh, scientists and engineers and astronauts and all of these people.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And this guy leans over to him, he says, Why are why are we here?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I here?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: This, this, all these people are so much more important.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And Neil Gainman says, if this Neil, Neil Armstrong, has imposter syndrome, maybe it's okay that I do too.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so that's that's always stuck with me because you just have to tell your stories, and sure you get better and over time, you know, but if you're telling a story, you're a writer or you're a storyteller at the very least, you know.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, it's just and I I have that constant support of yeah, of course you got into that anthology because it's a good story, it's a really good story.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's that's the best thing for me is beating back that imposture syndrome one day at a time.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's also being able to finally be able to tell the stories that I see in my head in a way that I think is worthy.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's so cool you just brought that up, imposture syndrome, because it feels I've interviewed a lot of people on this podcast, and a lot are founders of companies, you know, people have been doing things for 20, 30 years, have done incredible things.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And there seems to be this like one common theme that, you know, and this is kind of a little bit of a different avenue with it, but they always stay curious, they never think they know it all.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And they all have a little bit of imposter syndrome because they they I love they tell them.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I had one guy on, I was like, dude, you've done all these incredible things.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I'm glad you think I've done this.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know as much as you think I do.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I I'm still learning every day.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: But everyone who has that type of approach of wanting to be better and wanting to do great things, I think it's almost a good thing to have a little bit of that, not not to detriment, but just like, hey, I there's still enough to improve and go get.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm content, I'm happy to share what I've learned so far.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, teaching people you've gotten to a level where you know, hey, I know a thing or two I can help you out, but you're also like, I still got a lot to learn here.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: I still am trying to figure out some of these things, you know, that maybe I don't know.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's just a healthy way to go about just personal growth.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: I could not uh could not agree more.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, imposter syndrome can be crippling for a lot of writers, it it very much is, especially because when you add that to the loneliness, then it's you know, just you know, I I see so many times when I go to seminars, well, I don't think this story is very good.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, of course it's good.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: You told a story, come on, yeah, you know, and sometimes that goes over well, sometimes it doesn't, but I try to stay positive in just about every area of my the thing that people have sometimes asked me or asked other authors who are much more well known than I am, when do you feel like you really made it?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And uh you never make it.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's when the way I describe it is there is no top of the mountain.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there is no finally I made it, I'm done.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, there is no you get to the to the top of this mountain and you look forward, and there's another mountain, you know.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's always another mountain.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: By that I mean there's always more to learn.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can always get better at whatever you choose to do.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you just have to have that integral uh curiosity, you know, that that built-in what's over that horizon.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we we have that as a human, just as human nature.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I think in particular when you're talking about creativity, it's something you always have to be aware of, is that you are not the best at anything.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: You are really good potentially, but there is always going to be either somebody better than you or somebody, something more that you can learn to make yourself better.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: And when you have that humbleness, when you have that awareness that there is no top of the mountain, then that really is it's really free because then at that point you can say, okay, well, great.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: I approach everything as an opportunity to learn something new, whether that's a seminar that I'm teaching, whether that's a seminar that I'm attending as a learner, whether that's me publishing a new book.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's always something to learn about this industry, about writing, about storytelling, about people.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because that's what it, that's what this all comes down to.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about people.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I write, I don't write uh what we call the in the business, we don't call we call them travel logs, which is basically like, oh, so and so went here, and then they went here, and then they went here.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Lord of the Rings is a travelogue.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of story.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a bad story.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: I have some issues with it, but that's neither here nor there.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I I tend to write more character-driven stuff because I I want to see what's going on with people, with with characters, or even if they're not necessarily technically people, you know, I want to see what's going on with the internal.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: I want to connect with readers, I want to show them that this is something that you are not the only one who's dealing with, you know, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing or whatever.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's truly why I think we tell stories and why why we are as as we are as as a culture and as a species.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it was that connection.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're all we're all looking for that connection.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Jason, you've been doing this long enough now.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious to know, you know, obviously with fiction, you're creating your own characters and world.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see 'cause I was talking to someone about this actually a while back, and we were talking about it took them a long time to write the book that they wrote.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a 10 year process.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, when you look back at the book, You see moments of like, hey, in 2015, this was going on in the world, and you can kind of see that translation into your book, you know, and then it's post-COVID when you finish it.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see certain things that you kind of like put in because of just external influences?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Are in some of your books?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Can you look back and see like some of the external things going on in life and in the world that maybe had an effect on how you built out a character or a storyline?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't I don't really structure my stories to that extent.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: I I did try that with book three, which is why book three took three years to write.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: I tried to over-outline, and by the time I was done with the outline, I knew the story wasn't necessarily as fun to write.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there are influences, but there's nothing that I'm like, oh, I'm gonna talk about this thing.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, my friend George, who we talked about briefly, George Wright Page, who has some of the best books I've ever read, by the way.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, also happened to be published by me, but that's neither neither here nor there.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um he he was at a convention once and he said somebody asked him a question on that panel.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: They said, I noticed you did this with your book, and it and it kind of mirrors this that's going on now, and this that's going on now, and that and and he told me later, he said, I just tell stories.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't really think about it like this.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: I just write the story, but he can't he didn't want to tell a reader that so he goes, I'm glad you noticed that.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so and then he used that later on, you know, but uh and I'm I'm sort of talking out of school here, but uh I don't think George would mind too much because that's that's really what he and I both do, is we just tell stories now by virtue of our intelligence and just the people we are and the kind of stories that we tell, stuff sneaks in.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there was uh in book one of my zombie series and end, there was uh there was a little slight pot point about the the government editing the footage coming back from the Middle East uh because that was an easy way to to take out the zombies that were actually in uh the Middle East, taking people out and killing people.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it wasn't an IED, it was an actual zombie.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just kind of a like a, oh, well that that would be kind of cool.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of moments that I write that are like that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: But there's nothing in particular that I'm like, oh, here's an allegory uh to this, or here's an allegory to that.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, except that in my newest stories, I'm looking at it as as themes.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're I'm I'm working themes into the book and I uh into the stories, and and I think that they're better stories because of it, but it's a lot more work.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, well, I did this over here, and if I connect that with this, and you know, you look at the the maps of the stories and they're like filling the wall or or whatever digitally.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: But then I think it's a better story, it's a deeper story.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it feels more connected, it's not quite as it's not that the other ones were shallow, it's just that this is like, oh, there's a lot here.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot going on.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and he's telling a story that is much more than I originally thought it was.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's that's what I would love, is for people to go back and reread the book almost immediately and go, wow, now I see all these things and and this is really great about this, and this is really great about the other.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and there are things that I definitely try to bring in with with some of my belief systems, with the quality, you know, some of uh the societal stuff that's going on right now.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh in my most recent stories, I'm I'm bringing that because I believe it's important to to show up, to be visible.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't want to get too political on podcasts.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: There is uh a story that I'm working on um about werewolves in Nazi Germany, and it's there's it's very allegorical to what we're we're dealing with in uh in our society now.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the first time I've really, really tried to to build something off of that.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's really good.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's action horror, but it's still like you can read back into it and you're like, whoa, okay, wait, that and then that's something that I haven't really tried that hard before, but I'm I'm excited to see how it goes.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's cool though that for you to say, like, hey, a lot of my work, like, I'm just trying to entertain.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: I want to write good stories, I want people to enjoy them.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm sitting here laughing, I'm thinking, you know, going through school and sitting in English class, and you're looking at all these novels and and just works, and they're making you like try to figure out what they meant by this.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember being like a kid and being like, what if they're just trying to make us laugh or they're just trying to like entertain?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why are we going so deep into this?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what if it means nothing?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even I think it was Stephen Freud that said sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: So not everything I write is is an allegory for something that's actually happening.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's just like what it's tell a fun story.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking about art too.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, everyone tries to figure out like what did they mean with this part of the artwork?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, maybe it was just they thought the color was cool and they just, you know, wanted to paint a cool picture.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yeah, it didn't have to mean something every time, right?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly the case.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, if you get something out of it that I didn't intend, oh well, great.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's it's just like coming back to George.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, I'm really glad you noticed that.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't being facetious, he's he's glad that he connected with that reader, even unintentionally, in a way that they found, you know, supportive or you know, true to their own experience, which we all we're all looking again comes back to connection.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: We're all looking for that way to connect.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if I can unintentionally even write something that somebody connects with on that level, and they're like, hey, somebody sees me.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's great, you know.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's a great story to begin with, well, then that's so much the better.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's gotta be cool as a writer if someone brings something to your attention that you weren't even thinking about.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it's like, well, that's pretty cool, actually.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I can see where you saw that, and I didn't even have that intention.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it you know, it's it's not necessarily even um societal upheaval sort of thing, you know, that that level.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like somebody about a year and a half ago, guess now, told me they they said, Why are all your stories post-apocalyptic?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, what?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then I then I went and I looked at them and most of them are.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, there's the the sci fantasy, which is technically post-apocalyptic because it's a thousand years in the future after the galactic civil civilization fails.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess that's that's post-apocalyptic technically, but uh you know, this this new one I'm running isn't.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: I I I definitely see that sort of um sort of bent in some of my uh earlier work.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh obviously the zombie series is is both pre- and post-apocalyptic.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: So pre-during and which is unusual, I think, and pretty cool about that.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: You actually get to see stuff happen.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: You see it from start to find, so to speak.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh to to the end from the end to the beginning, even.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I th I think that as long as you tell a good story, if that is your sole goal, uh to just tell a good story, whether it's movies or TV or books or songs or any sort of creative endeavor, sculpture even tells a story.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's that's where your focus has to lie.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: In the end, that's where you're serving your community, your readers, your viewers, whatever it may be.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's where you're serving is through that that connection, that that super good story that they're like, okay, well, this is cool, but end that that's really great.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and to your point of just writing, you know, a certain style of book, it's like you you like what you like, you know, and that helps you enjoy doing what you want to do, and glad other people like it too.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so funny you noticed that.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, Jason, I just got one last question for you.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: This has been awesome, man.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell, I can just it's so cool talking with someone who is just like excited and passionate about their work and the stories they tell because that I mean, it just bleeds through whether you realize it or not, and just creates interest and it makes people want to read that book or or even just like maybe it's not that book, but they know who you are now.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: So a different book that you've written, and I think that's really cool and and very positive.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I asked this question to everyone who comes on the podcast because I'm just curious from a book standpoint, you know, for books for guys' purposes, what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally, or has had a big impact on you?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: And what's a book you love to recommend to other people?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's those are that's a big question.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: I would have to say my current favorite author uh also happens to be a really great friend, uh Jonathan Mayberry, who wrote the Joe Ledger series, who I have been because I tend to wear these type of shirts and I have this sort of look.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I often get mistaken for him at Vegets, and I wish I had half of his income, but that's that doesn't or readership really.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even care about the income, I just want the readership.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Go get there, go get there.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: He tells really good stories in a lot of different genres, which I really like because I'm a very multi-genre author.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also uh a big fan of Kevin J.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Anderson for the same reason.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I, you know, like there's some really good books that I've got on my shelf that I intend to read in almost immediately.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just recently I found out about one called Death of the Author by Nadia of Korophore.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, uh, and I'm not certain I'm pronouncing that correctly, but that one is she also wrote Binti, uh, which was another one that I I've been told is really good, is on my list.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of read a whole lot of different things.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: One of the, for if you're if any of your listeners are author or want to be an author, two books that I really, really highly recommend uh are, I think should be required reading is I just lost it.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: The Art is an Author by Johnny B.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Truett and Million Dollar Professionalism by Kevin Janderson, and I think his wife, Rebecca Mesta, possibly.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, might have been Jody Lennai that wrote those.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: I also really like some really great nonfiction, A Walk in the Woods by Bill Bryson or um World Without Us by Alan Weisman.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of post-apocalypse, yeah, yeah, things like that.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I have 6,000 books in my library, so kind of like a lot of and they talk about genre hopping.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's all over the place.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: But most recently, I'm reading a book by my friend Chuck Gannon uh called Fire with Fire.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: I just finished uh a couple short story anthologies and some classic sci-fi.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going, I'm literally going through all of my to be red pile.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's kind of all over the map recently.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well that that's uh I love podcasts too.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: I love listening to podcasts.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, aside from this Books for Guys podcast, my favorite podcast is uh once we were spaced in with Alan Tudik and Nathan Philly from Firefly Fame and and other places.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: But okay.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, there's there's a lot of content out there for people.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a tough question for you to have that many books.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I again that's why I like to ask it, because man, the answer could be different if I asked you five years ago.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: It could be different.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: I could if I ask you next week, you know, because everyone's on there's so many books, and there's so many things you're picking up and sharing.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm just I always like that.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of a lot of my nonfiction is is centered around writing, obviously.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's a lot of really good uh nonfiction and fiction out there, obviously, too.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I was trying to think there's there's another book I read recently.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I can't think of it.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was it's really impactful, and I can't think of the name because uh if you hadn't asked me, I could have told you.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's all right.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the same way.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I get asked, and I'm like, man, I know I read three books this year that meant so much, and for the life of me, I can't think of what the title is.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I and I just I just sent out my newsletter uh a few days ago, and I I always have uh what I'm reading, what I'm listening to, and stuff in that newsletter, and um it was in there and I can't think of it.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sometimes I can tell you too, like the like a point in the book that I loved, and I'm like, ah, if I could just I can't think of the book, but I know what stuck out to me as I read this.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: But no, Jason, man, it is so it is an honor to spotlight you and your work, and I look forward to continuing to do so.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a lot of your books.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: I've got to get on the website because I want to make sure we share all of them, and I know you've got more and more you're working on.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll be very happy to share those as well.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh man, just keep doing what you're doing.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's so like I said, your energy and just positivity and excitement of your work, it it comes through.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm always talking with people and and sharing work uh from someone who's so passionate about it.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so, man, excited to to just see your continued success and and your continued work.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we're happy to be a part of the journey with you.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks for having me.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a been a great time.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Jason.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.