Latest / The Media Odyssey / NEPO PRINCES, KILL LISTS, AND C4 SUCCESSION
Transcript
- TMO - S2 Premiere v2 === Marion Ranchet: [00:00:00] So this is episode one of season two. What are we talking about today? Evan Shapiro: We've got, this was a really busy news summer. A lot happened. MSNBC is now Ms. Now, or M Snow or whatever you wanna call it. And there's a lot going on in the NBC Universal Cable Town world from the Nepo King Brian Roberts And I'm gonna be talking about that. You've got big news about what's happening in Europe on a couple different fronts, right? Marion Ranchet: Yeah. So June was very busy and there's a reason, you've said it we're socialists. So I think a lot of the news were released in June. So we had Netflix and TF1. Amazon and France Télévisions. RTL and Sky. And then the rest of the summer was pretty quiet until today because this is back to school. And so we heard this morning some news about the German market. So we're gonna be talking about consolidation around ProSiebenSat.1, which is one of the big commercial broadcasters there. Evan Shapiro: And then we both have a story about YouTube. I'm talking about YouTube's rising dominance. So they were already dominant before the summer here on [00:01:00] television, but now that they're dissonant, distancing themselves from the field, and then you have a YouTube story from that side of the Atlantic too. Marion Ranchet: Yeah, absolutely. So Barb from the UK, they're gonna be the first to actually measure some of the YouTube channels. I'm saying some because they made the decision to go after 200 channels that they've chosen in partnership with SeeViews and Kantar. And we'll be talking about the first numbers we saw and a bit of the reactions from the market. Evan Shapiro: Yeah, really fascinating stuff. And then there's a empty head at the top of Channel 4 and I think you and I both have some ideas on who they should hire. And so we're gonna put those recommendations for candidates out there, whether those candidates won it or not. It'll be interesting to see what happens on the other side of that. But first, let's talk about the season ahead.[00:02:00] Marion Ranchet: Welcome everyone to the second season. He's making faces. Okay. Evan Shapiro: I'm excited to be back. Last time we went on a break, last time we went on a break, you dated another co-host, so I'm excited to see you. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. And I'm tan and I look good, and Evan Shapiro: You look great. Marion Ranchet: So do you actually. Let me start again. But the face you made was like, oh my God I'm not gonna stay focused on Okay. Evan Shapiro: My face does that to people. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Welcome everyone to the second season of the Media Odyssey podcast. This is Evan Shapiro. Evan Shapiro: And that is Marion Ranchet back from our break. Marion Ranchet: Yes. Evan Shapiro: Good to see you. Marion Ranchet: Good to see you too. Summer break this time. Nothing going wrong with within this pod couple, right? Evan Shapiro: Not that I can tell, but last time we went on a break, you dated another co-host, don't know how did you date Marion Ranchet: So did you. Three women. You did two actually. So stop blaming me for being with Alan once. Once. Evan Shapiro: Do what I say not what I do. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Be forgiving. So how is your summer man? [00:03:00] Evan Shapiro: It was pretty good. It was pretty good. I actually have COVID right now. Marion Ranchet: Are you kidding? Evan Shapiro: Yeah, no, it's very hot right now. I dunno if you heard, COVID is way back in vogue, so I have COVID. I feel fine. But other than that it's been really great. Marion Ranchet: Wow. Evan Shapiro: How about you? Marion Ranchet: Yeah, my summer was amazing. So no COVID, no LinkedIn. Books, food, family. Amazing. And I'm gearing up to prepare for Streaming Made Easy Live taking place on September 11th. I have to say, the pressure is mounting. Evan Shapiro: Yeah, and I'm pre, I'm presenting that's at IBC. It's just the day before IBC in Amsterdam. And then I'm presenting a couple of times there too. And I'm feeling the pressure not just to be good on stage and all that kind of stuff, but to really advance the conversation. It just feels like the ball needs to be rolled even harder uphill right now 'cause the whole ecosystem feels like it's falling apart even faster than it was when last we saw each other. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. And I have to say, two years ago you made quite an impression with your keynotes, telling people that they were [00:04:00] white dude and white dinosaurs. So I think the pressure is yay high for you. Evan Shapiro: I, thanks a lot. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. I love, I'm piling up. Evan Shapiro: Yeah, we're really trying to really ramp it up and there's gonna be a whole new thesis there. I've introduced a bunch of ideas this summer, like the affinity economy and new measurement, and that's really where I'm gonna focus the rest of this year is on how do we measure progress now? Marion Ranchet: Yeah, that sounds good. So Streaming Made Easy Live on September 11th. Then I'm speaking, I have a couple of panels on the 12th. You are doing your keynote on the 13th. On the 13th, we also have two cool things. We have two live episodes of the Media Odyssey, so one with our friends from Whale TV, which these guys are CTVs Best Kept Secret. For the next few weeks, because no more everyone will know about Whale TV coming up. And we have a cool CTO, so Chief Technology Office Web podcast, right? Because we know nothing about tech. We need people to educate us, right? Evan Shapiro: [00:05:00] We've got two great big brains coming from that as, for that podcast as well. We also have a great season ahead, like a chalk a block full of huge names coming on, including Angel Studios, probably the hottest independent film studio in the entire world. Whalar Media, who is just crushing it in the creator economy. We've got the head of marketing for the Philadelphia Football Eagles, your Super Bowl champions. Marion Ranchet: Oh wow. Evan Shapiro: We've got folks from Little Dot coming on. We've got some of my favorite people in all of content World of Wonder, the people who produce RuPaul's Drag Race. So we've got a really exciting season coming up. I hope you all come back for the entire season 'cause if you loved last season, you're gonna really go crazy for this one. If you didn't listen to last season, what the fuck are you doing? Go listen to last season. It's still pure gold and it'll tee up for what's happening this year. Alright, so let's dive in. Marion Ranchet: Okay, so tell me more about MSNBC taking a name from the eighties. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. So I think [00:06:00] everybody knows this by now. Comcast, NBC Universal, or as I like to call them, Cable Town, which is what they were called in the documentary called 30 Rock by Tina Fey. They are in the midst of spinning out. They're slowly dying or actually quickly dying cable networks, including MSNBC, CNBC, a whole bunch of other cable properties, USA, and others as well. And they're spinning it out into a new publicly traded company called Versant which is dumb in and of itself. 'Cause they're taking dying businesses, which have positive cashflow and are throwing off profits. And they're separating it from the part of NBCUniversal that actually isn't necessarily making money yet. Although they're keeping Bravo, that cable network over here and not putting it at, it's just ill founded. And I wrote a piece earlier this week about my experience at Cable Town where I went to the company when I got hired there, and convinced them to [00:07:00] take The Office off of Netflix to start a new streaming service and put it exclusively on this new streaming service. This is in 2015, 2016 and at that time The Office was the number one streaming show in the world. And they didn't think they had the right to do it. I showed them the contract, made them read it, and demonstrated that they did have the right to do that. So we went to Netflix who said, you don't have the right to do that. We showed them the contract. We did have the right to do that. Then Netflix offered Cable Town and Nepo baby Brian Roberts a hundred million dollars on top of what they were already paying for The Office. Marion Ranchet: Oh, wow. Evan Shapiro: And so these people who had hired me to build a brand new streaming service, came to me and said That strategy you had for the streaming service, throw it out the window. We're taking the money, we're letting them keep The Office. And then four years later, almost to the day, they paid Netflix a half a billion dollars to get The Office off of Netflix [00:08:00] and look at where Peacock is today and imagine if they had a four year head start with the number one streaming service out there. Then look at these things they call strategies with spinning out Versant and the cable networks, and look at the fact that their broadband business has been flattening for years and they've done nothing about it until this summer. And if you're asking yourself, what's the strategy at NBCUniversal Comcast Cable Town? There isn't one. And the, all the moves that they're making demonstrated by the fact that they just announced the Versant half, although they're not separated yet, that they're rebranding MSNBC. Do you know what MSNBC is? Marion Ranchet: It's a news channel, but that's it. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. It's a left-leaning version of Fox and Rachel Maddow is on it, and it's done pretty well. It's actually one of the top rated, if you want to say this is a thing anymore, cable television channels out there. Live and news still works on television. And so there's a left leaning version of Fox. [00:09:00] But MSNBC was named after a partnership when the channel launched between Microsoft and NBC. Marion Ranchet: Oh wow. Okay, did not know that. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. Very few, very few people realize that, but Microsoft divested themselves from the partnership many, many years ago. They've kept it because it was on the dial, and I get that, but now they're doing away with the NBC brand. Marion Ranchet: For MS. Evan Shapiro: But they're keeping the MS. Marion Ranchet: Yeah, I don't get it. I don't get it. Evan Shapiro: It makes no, and they've justified it with some kind of weird, I don't remember what, how they justified this new branding, but there's a couple of things to know about this. First of all, they're calling it MS NOW. Which when you read it, it looks like either a charity for multiple sclerosis, which you know is a terrible disease and we should all give money to it, but this is not what that is. Or Ms. Now, or MSnow, it looks like any one of those things. What it doesn't look like is a television channel, but Microsoft has nothing [00:10:00] to do with the channel. So if you're getting rid of NBC, why keep the MS part of it? That's first thing. Second thing, they can't get the URL. MSNOW.com is unavailable. They do not own it. This was, this is management malpractice and it just shows that there is no strategy happening at that company right now. Marion Ranchet: Wow. That's a lot. And that, that must have been fantastic food for thought for you this summer. I'm sure you crushed it on LinkedIn. Evan Shapiro: It was a lot of, it got a lot of engagement on the LinkedIn and there's a great if you want to go there, you can look at it. But yeah, I tried to get that out as quickly as I could, but yeah, it's, there's a lot to unpack there. It just shows that frankly our industry is infected with Nepo babies and chief officers of failing up. Marion Ranchet: No. Evan Shapiro: Jeff Shell is another really good, he's a graduate of that, I don't know, goat Rodeo at NBCUniversal, and now he's the president at [00:11:00] Paramount. And he came out with a kill list this week. He literally used those words. Yeah. And it just shows you that there's just this coterie of upward failing white men, and I am one of them I guess, but I'm not running a business, who are costing people jobs. Paramount's gonna lay off 3000 people. NBC's handing out pink slips right now. And it's because of bad decisions by people at the top of these organizations, many of whom were born with silver spoons in their mouths, others who are just part of the secret handshake society of failing upwards who don't think about the future, they only think about their own pockets and the next earnings call. Marion Ranchet: Yeah, it's gonna be a blood bath right in Q4. And I have to say, I've spoken to a lot of Paramount folks and a lot of people are going through tough times already, right? This, these 12 months not knowing what was gonna happen. Trying to be working as usual has been rough. And I think they need to brace themselves, right? And [00:12:00] start figuring out right now what's gonna happen next. And part of that is gonna be LinkedIn. Part of that is gonna be engaging in new ways and taking back that control, right? Because they've been very quiet. Like I've tried to actually have a couple of Paramount folks for the pods in September. Nope. Not happening. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. And we've talked about this, but not that much on the pod really is people who are in our age groups, some much older than you, a Bar Mitzvah older than you, but the between our age groups they're just, they don't feel comfortable self-promoting very often. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Evan Shapiro: And I wrote a long article on on Substack and dropped it out and copied you on it today, on LinkedIn, on basically how to survive the Nepo apocalypse and really take control of your career back. And I think, your case study is a great one. Mine is a little weirder but I think there are other people like Alan Wolk and Hernan Lopez and others out there in the world who have demonstrated that you can pivot [00:13:00] numerous times in your career if you're prepared to do that and you're comfortable talking about it. Marion Ranchet: Yeah, for sure. It does take a bit of, it's not something you can do overnight, right? Yeah. So I would engage people to do it right away. And the first thing that I've noticed and that I've done myself, what helps is if you wanna keep a low profile at the beginning, at the minimum, try to look at what others are doing, try learning. I did that for a full year also because I was on sick leave and I was not allowed to express myself in any shape or form. But, so I took that year and I was a lurker. That's the name you give on LinkedIn. Someone who's looking, reading but not pressing, like no, no comments, no nothing. And I learned a lot. And then one day I was like, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready and this is what I'm gonna do. Evan Shapiro: And you reached out and we actually met up and that's how our whole relationship started. Yeah. Marion Ranchet: So yeah, there's hope. But the good thing is that a lot of those people can see us on different occasion in the next few weeks and month, and we are super happy to chat about that around the drink, right?[00:14:00] Evan Shapiro: Totally. All right. So what's your big first topic of summer news? Marion Ranchet: So it's not nepo baby, although MFE, which is Media for Europe, is the Berlusconi family. So it's a family run business. It owns Evan Shapiro: He is Nepo baby. Isn't his son running it now? Marion Ranchet: Yeah, he is. Evan Shapiro: Okay. Marion Ranchet: I don't know him and I don't know enough to put him right away in the Neop baby because some people are actually the inherit business and they're good at that, right? So there's nothing wrong against Evan Shapiro: Totally. Marion Ranchet: Family businesses and people taking over. So I don't wanna judge this guy. I don't know him. I hated his dad for sure. But this guy, the jury's still out. And so essentially he's been pushing for the last few years to actually become a pan-European media company. And, it's the one thing to do. We need more consolidation in the region. It's happening right now. We had sky and RTL in Germany and so for the last few months, MFE has been pushing to grow its share of ProSiebenSat.1 which is the other. So in front of [00:15:00] RTL is the other commercial broadcaster. And what's been fascinating is that the last few months we've seen a bit of a saga between MFE and the PPF group from Czechoslovakia. And so these two were shareholders and they were bidding. There was a bit of a bidding war, and it ended today essentially PPF, called it quit. And MFE won. So they actually now have their 43% market share. So they've moved from 30 to 43. And now PPF is even saying, I'm leaving ProSieben, I don't think I can be part of this anymore. So MFE is gaining another 15% on top of that. So that means that they don't have full control, but they have majority. And that means that they can actually discuss the strategy moving forward, count the results from ProSieben in their own accounts, and it means that they have a broadcast business in Italy, Spain, and Germany. Fascinating to see what's gonna happen next. We'll know more as Evan Shapiro: Was this a good, was this a good idea? Marion Ranchet: I think it is. [00:16:00] Evan Shapiro: I understand the theory behind it, but is buying broadcast and not public broadcast. So these are commercial broadcasters. Is buying broadcast a good idea right now? Marion Ranchet: I have to say that, we are, we have struggling broadcast businesses, but not to the extent that you guys have, right? So it's still very much good business, but businesses that need to reinvent themselves. And so the one thing that they need to do, and we've spoken about that, it's of course embracing their streaming era. But there's also the question always that comes up is how do you compete when in front of you guys you have global players? And so here the idea is really to say, I can't really be just my Italian broadcast operation or Spanish. Let me be something bigger. The one thing is we'll have to see the execution of it all because from a mindset perspective, cultural perspective, Italian, Spanish, German, not that easy. But I think you know it's worth a shot honestly, and I'm excited to see if these guys could actually take a look [00:17:00] at ITV next in the UK. Could they be looking at M6 next in France and then you're truly a EU5, broadcast player. Evan Shapiro: But because of the language barriers, does that again, is there economy, are there economies of scale? I guess technologically speaking. Marion Ranchet: Yeah, they're saying 150 million I think of economy. So I think there's per year there's an economy of scale and we've had, so good example, right? We had Bedrock on this and they were talking about building a tech platform. So even just that, having one tech platform running both Italian, Spanish, and German operations. If not more markets. So jury's still are exactly on will that be a good thing, yes or no? Those things take time. We've seen it with Paramount and Skydance. I think we need, as Europeans, we need more partnership and when not, consolidation for sure. Evan Shapiro: And there's a similar thing happening here. And honestly about the same scale, you've got TEGNA and NextStar. So these are broadcast [00:18:00] companies here, but they own local broadcasters. So it's like how ARD runs in Germany. It's affiliates across the country. And so you're having a major consolidation, and I don't think the last time in local broadcast here, Alan Wolk actually wrote a really good article about this a couple weeks ago after it was just announced. And it, there used to be a time where you would be very afraid of the limiting of voice due to that type of consolidation. But to your point, from earlier, compared to Google and Amazon and Netflix and all the rest, and Apple, it's the only thing that broadcast can do is consolidate. And local content is gonna become, I think, more important over the next, not five years, not less. Marion Ranchet: Yeah, absolutely. And so on the political front, you're right. I think German authorities are a bit worried because in Italy you have a right wing, right wing prime Minister Maloney. And so there's a question on, will this new owner [00:19:00] shareholder, will maintain pluralism, et cetera, it's yet to be seen, but their MFE, when they're pitching this really focused on the pan-European aspect of it all. So I think there's gonna be a lot of scrutiny and and we'll see. Evan Shapiro: The only thing I, the only thing I would warn about this, and I think Germany should be worried about this because, Berlusconi's dad was the original Trump. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Evan Shapiro: He owned media and then he got in, became the head of the country. Yeah. And was very much double dealing and limited voice. So there's not a great history in that family of being okay with free speech. Marion Ranchet: That's true. That's very true. Evan Shapiro: But we'll see how that, yeah. My next story is about YouTube. Marion Ranchet: Okay. Evan Shapiro: But it's actually about Marion Ranchet: Of course it is. Evan Shapiro: Yeah, I know. YouTube, YouTube, YouTube. Yeah. But it's about actually YouTube's place on the television dial here in the United States. So the July Gauge, Nielsen Gauge just dropped. And YouTube now has almost [00:20:00] 13.5% of all television viewing. Marion Ranchet: Getting close to my bet yeah? Evan Shapiro: Just on TV. Marion Ranchet: I said 15 now. Evan Shapiro: That's right, you said 15. That's right. Marion Ranchet: Four more months. Evan Shapiro: Four more months. I think they're gonna hit it. I think you're right. So they're at 13.5%. And so there's a couple of different things to look at that. First of all, they're distancing to themselves from the field. Second place is now further away than they've ever been. Disney is now under 10% of total market share. And remember, that's YouTube versus all of Disney. The other thing to remember about this YouTube number is it does not include YouTube TV, their cable product, it does not include shorts, and it does not include anything but the television set. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: So 13% of all TV viewing before YouTube TV here in the US and still we have people here talking about how it's just a waste of time, Ted Sarandos. Or it's not TV, you. But if it's on the TV and it's taking up that much mind space, it is television. The other thing to note about this is [00:21:00] that's YouTube, which means that's really 4.5 million channels within YouTube sharing that voice. And a million channels take up most of that time. About 98% of all YouTube viewing comes from just a million channels, but think about a million channels of fragmentation. Then the Disney number is Disney and Hulu and Disney Plus and ESPN. And NBC is NBC and all their cable channels, including Ms. Now and the rest, and it's getting more and more fragmented. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: The other big point I would make about this is YouTube and Netflix alone. So Netflix had a very good summer, they're suddenly bouncing back a little bit after months and months of plateauing. But those two combined, if you take YouTube and Netflix combined, they're now much larger than all of broadcast in the United States combined. Together, they're about 22.5%. Netflix and YouTube. [00:22:00] All of broadcast in the US is about 18%. By the way, when you take YouTube and Netflix combined, they're at about 22.5%. They're on the same par, they're equal to all of pay TV combined and the idea that the traditional ecosystem is gonna be able to survive based on what they're doing today is just ill-founded. By this time next year, I think YouTube will be bigger. You've made a prediction, which is they'll be at 15% by the end of this year. I think you're, I think you're right. And I think you're only wrong because maybe too low. I think Marion Ranchet: By the end of the year, do you think it can be more than 15? Evan Shapiro: They have NFL, they have the first NFL game of the season. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: They have NFL Sunday Ticket, which doesn't actually play into that number, but yeah, I think there's a, they're only a point and a half away from 15 percent. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. I'm regretting not putting some money, Evan Shapiro: A higher number? Marion Ranchet: Or asking something from you or anyone else on this. [00:23:00] Because Evan Shapiro: We didn't bet anything. Marion Ranchet: Yeah, we didn't. I'm not good. I was in Vegas, in Jan. I should have bet something there, but, so just one thing. Why is YouTube TV not included in here? Evan Shapiro: The reason why YouTube, that's a great, that is a great question. The reason why YouTube TV is not included in there is because Nielsen counts the viewing on YouTube. So when you think about YouTube TV, it's cable and pay TV, right? And so that's lots of channels that aren't YouTube. There's no YouTube in YouTube TV. It's NBC and ESPN and CBS and Comedy Central. And so viewing from YouTube TV is actually reallocated into the other companies. So YouTube TV viewing of NBC is in the NBC count and YouTube TV viewing of ESPN is in the Disney count, so you can't double count it. The one thing I'll say, my prediction is by the end of '26, YouTube in the United States on TV by itself will be bigger than all of broadcast combined. [00:24:00] Marion Ranchet: I have to say I find that scary. I love YouTube, but I also have, I love a bit of competition. I love broadcasters. I still watch TV. Evan Shapiro: But I think, I think we look at it different when I think we look at it incorrectly, when we look at it as a scary thing in that it's not YouTube, it's not their content. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: And you're about to get into the share of voice on YouTube. And by Barb's measurement, it's, YouTube is making money on it, but so is everybody else. And so I look at it at like Comcast. It's the new Comcast, it's the new Charter. It's not YouTube content, it's everybody else's content on YouTube. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Yeah. The only challenge, and we've spoken about this when when we were, when we were in Cannes, right? And we spoke to Pedro Pina about that VP of YouTube EMEA, the fact that, and this is what everyone is saying, amount of money you make on there for an hour of YouTube and an hour on TV. It's tenfold if not more, right? My challenge is, and [00:25:00] that's where I think it's scary, is I'm worried that it's gonna, that the ecosystem could crumble, right? Because it's, again, dollars versus cents kind of in streaming. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. I will push back on that. There's two, two elements. One, YouTube the more dominant, they become on television, the higher their CPMs are going. That's one. And then two, that's entirely in your own hands. And so if you lean into it the way that BBC studios has or the way that other players have, you can sell it. And you can make as much money as you'd like, but you have to really lean into it. The issue is none of the big publishers have really embraced this new distribution platform the way that they should or need to. And until, and unless they do, in 2019, Disney went into streaming finally. Finally they were drug into it, right? And they changed the nature of the streaming ecosystem overnight. I think that we're months away from Disney leaning into YouTube the way that they leaned into [00:26:00] streaming. And I think when they do that, everybody else, as they do, herd in behind Bob Iger, and I think we'll see a real transformation of social video as a platform. Marion Ranchet: So speaking of, 'cause there's a lot of data on YouTube as a whole, right? And so if you look at the UK, you've put a lot of data with Barb on that. In Q2 YouTube on TV, 43%. And even higher like another 10 plus when you look at younger demos, particularly younger kids Evan Shapiro: Or multiple screens in the home. Then it goes even higher. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Absolutely. But so the question was always, it's seen as a whole and what people wanna know, right, is what is actually happening on YouTube, which channel are driving traffic, et cetera, et cetera, or viewership. That's where, I say YouTube is not TV, is even the lingo doesn't really work. It's not apples to apples. But anyway, so Barb. The UK jic decided in March to actually start a project where they will be [00:27:00] measuring 200 YouTube channels. How do they choose those channels? They work with a company called SeeViews. Not super clear how they made a decision. One thing they chose is brand safety, right? Because this is the one thing that is being said about YouTube is that you can get to watch and see nonsense on there. So brand safety and of course the volume of of use. And I haven't had my hands on the whole report, on the 200, they only share a subset, which is the top 20. And you are seeing someone at the top and can you guess who that is? Did you look it up? Evan Shapiro: Pretty sure it's Mr. Beast. I did look at it. Marion Ranchet: No, it's not Mr. Beast is number five. Evan Shapiro: Oh wow. Marion Ranchet: So the first one is Peppa Pig. Evan Shapiro: Oh yes, I did know that. Yeah, of course it is. Marion Ranchet: Of course, right? Evan Shapiro: By the way, demonstrating that YouTube is television because Peppa Pig is a TV show. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: So be honest. Marion Ranchet: What they did there is all of that data is, so it's TV only. It doesn't include the channels that are [00:28:00] operated by broadcasters because any of that viewership is actually folded into the broadcaster's share, et cetera. Mr. Beast, so Peppa Pig the reach, weekly reach, we're talking about 700, around 700K folks. So that's 1.2 in market share. So kind of tiny. Evan Shapiro: It's not bad. That is not bad. Marion Ranchet: Not bad. Not bad. Evan Shapiro: 700,000 people, I think Channel 4 would love to have that audience on a regular basis. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. And then share of total identified TV, we're talking as 0.06%. Okay. There's a lot of caveat. And Mr. Beast, number five, we're talking half that in terms of the number of viewers. So what's interesting is that. Evan Shapiro: That's just on TV, right? Marion Ranchet: Yeah. That's just on TV. But as we've seen, a lot of the viewership from YouTube is much more now on TV than it is historically on PC, mobile, et cetera. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. Almost half in the UK. Over 60% in the US. Marion Ranchet: Exactly. So what I find interesting is because all of the numbers that we get, were always [00:29:00] from YouTube, it's global reach. And at a market level, it's the entire platform, but as you've said it at the top, there's a lot of content on there. There's a lot of channel, right? So to me that screams. That there's a lot of long-tailed viewership, very, very fragmented. So it's not like you can really compare the performance of any of these guys with what's happening on TV in my view. And especially when you look at advertisers, is that gonna convince them to invest on YouTube? Evan Shapiro: Yeah, I think, so, that's an interesting take. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: Now let me give you the opposite, which is let's do individual shows on Netflix. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: It's not going to amount to that much on a regular basis. There are Adolescence and there are exceptions to that. But when you look at the vast majority of content on on Netflix, it's a long tail. And the concept, when people buy YouTube in particular they buy a demographic. They buy an audience. They don't traditionally buy a show. And in, [00:30:00] in this case, they can't even buy Peppa Pig 'cause it's very hard to advertise in kids programming. Marion Ranchet: So that's the big challenge. On that top 20, most of it is kids, which is hard to monetize altogether. So yeah. Evan Shapiro: But that speaks to how to use YouTube as a programming outlet. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: If you're looking at YouTube as the center, as exclusively as an advertising business and as the center of your business, then you're missing the point. It's an extension of your business. And if it's a spoke off your hub and you're, and in the case of Peppa Pig selling billions of dollars a year in merchandise. Or hundreds of millions of dollars a year in merchandise. Then you look at YouTube as a marketing channel, as a way to reach audiences and build IP. Bluey is another good example and we talked about this Marion Ranchet: And it's up there of course. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. And, that's a monster hit on Disney and a monster hit on YouTube as well. So it is complicated. Like the, I think we have to be really frank with people. [00:31:00] This is a very difficult business moving forward. Entertainment, television, media, it's gonna be super complicated and really hard and not for the faint of heart. And if you're not okay with that, find another business. This is not going to be easy. Marion Ranchet: No, that's true. On that, I will agree. And, but clearly that shows that you need to be on there, and again, it's part of your flywheel, but you need to be mindful of the rest of of your businesses, verticals, et cetera, because, again, it's very fragmented. And I will say this argument with Netflix, yeah, maybe you're not selling again a specific show, but the entirety of what's in there, you know that it is broadcast level television on Netflix, whereas that's not the case on YouTube. Out of those five. Evan Shapiro: Not always, but Peppa Pig. But Peppa Pig is a good example and Bluey is another good example. Marion Ranchet: But if you go beyond those 200 channels, and if you are saying that a lot of, we're saying that a lot of the consumption is on the rest of that long tail, then that long tail is [00:32:00] not premium content necessarily. It's not premium TV. Evan Shapiro: To you. To others, you know, Mr. Beast or Alan Universe or Dhar Mann or Alex Cooper or Joe Rogan or I can keep going on. These are premium to the consumer depending on how they look at it. My fear about the data that Barb put out is that it's being misused to basically reinforce the broadcast first mindset expressed over and over again with kind of misleading reads of the data by Lindsay Clay, the CEO of Thinkbox, who's paid to basically be biased towards broadcast. That's literally her job, and she's using the Ofcom report and other data out there in incorrect ways to basically convince people that everything's swell in television and it's just not. It's just not swell. I've talked to all of the people who work in television in the UK and they know it's not [00:33:00] swell. And so to say to people like, ignore YouTube, it's not really as big as you think. It's just is and it has to be part of your consideration set. I'm not saying it's the only thing. Marion Ranchet: Yeah, absolutely. Evan Shapiro: But if you're not factoring it in, you're really gonna get crushed. Marion Ranchet: In any case, I think there's a lot of, they're missing a lot of things in there because short, so shorts are not not in there taken into account. Evan Shapiro: Not in there. Marion Ranchet: And yeah, and actually they've only started, right? So they've looked at videos uploaded since April. And as we all know, we see it as well on our pod, right? A lot of that consumption is gonna go to the rest of your library, right? And so something that's maybe a year old on your channel is gonna generate. So, those numbers, it's from April and only new uploads. So we know that means that those numbers are actually much lower than what the should be if you were looking at the entire library of Peppa and Mr. Beast and anyone else. Evan Shapiro: There are one plus percent [00:34:00] just with new uploads. Imagine if you took the whole library. And we know kids are stupid and watch the same thing over and over again. So let's not please stop us misusing data for your own purposes. Use data, but tell the truth about it. Now I'm gonna go back to you, because you have another really good one here from your work history about Roku. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. I'll go first on this one, but I think it speaks nicely to what we say day in day out. That is that you need to have a multifaceted strategy. And I think it's fascinating to see a company like Roku, which initially was only a device dongle 20 bucks, maker turning into a platform that hosts third party services, but now have their own. And so they had the Roku channel for the last six years already, but they were mostly focused on AVOD, FAST, et cetera. And it's fascinating to see them launching earlier this month an SVOD, a mini SVOD, $3. Anthony Wood, the CEO, said, it's the [00:35:00] price of a cup of coffee. I don't know where a price a coffee in the US is actually much more expensive than that. Evan Shapiro: Oh, so it's cheaper than a cup of coffee. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Yeah. So it's cheaper than a cup of coffee. But it's interesting to see these guys. So moving from hardware to then software becoming this advertising behemoth then producing their own shows, having their own Roku channel. Now I'm having an SVOD. So it's it's three bucks. There's 10K titles. It's a lot of library content, movies and all. What's interesting is it seems that a lot of the titles from that offer are also available somewhere else on the Roku platform, whether through them or others on a free ad-supported basis. And so I'm wondering whether it's not a way for Roku to be like, perhaps advertising is getting a bit tougher, and I've heard rumbles of people saying that they're struggling to sell and they actually, allow companies to buy back some of the inventory to sell themselves and that they're trying to mitigate this [00:36:00] by going into SVOD, right? So SVOD going into ad-supported, Ad-supported guys going into SVODs. What do you think? Evan Shapiro: Yeah, I, it's, I, it's a great question. I had the same, I had the same question. I think you're right. I think it's a diversification of revenue play. And it's a smart one. I think it's really wise to not put all of your revenue eggs in one revenue basket. But I'm gonna use this moment to speak directly to one person, which is Charlie Collier. Charlie and I have known each other over 20 years. Charlie, come on the pod. Tell us what the strategy is. Marion Ranchet: We talk about that. I agree. Evan Shapiro: You challenged Matt, Matthew Henick, and their Ventura product and then Matthew came on and explained it and won you over. So Charlie, we have questions about your business model. Come on the pod. We've known each other long enough, I won't be that mean to you. Marion Ranchet: You're actually quite nice to him. I saw you on stage with him last year at Streaming Medial. Evan Shapiro: So fucking charming. Marion Ranchet: I think it's okay. I'd love to have him on board. He was on the town a few months ago and I had a lot [00:37:00] of other questions for him, so yeah, let's do that. Evan Shapiro: Cool. All right, so last one. And this is one for each of us. Alex Mahon from Channel 4 has moved on to a new job in live entertainment, and they are looking for a CEO. There, it's also, Alex did a really good job. She can be a little controversial at times, but generally she really solidified where they are, but they really have leaps and bounds to make before they get where they're going. So the question is, who will be the next CEO of Channel 4? I have two picks. Hopefully you have two. Marion Ranchet: I do. Evan Shapiro: Do you wanna go first or you want me to go first? Marion Ranchet: Okay. I have one that is non controversial and that's my goody side where, you know, I always want things to, I'm not predicting, I'm wishing, but I want the interim CEO to get it. I'm annoyed at Evan Shapiro: Who is that? Marion Ranchet: It's a guy called Jonathan Helen, and I'm kind of annoyed to see people who are working hard, deserving, and then there's someone swooping in. So that's just me and [00:38:00] my work ethic. So I'm rooting for him. But I have another one that I'll share after yours. Evan Shapiro: Okay. So I think, I think Jonathan's very smart and does a really good job. I don't know that the programming area, so they're, the rules just change and they're gonna be able to produce their own content and own their own content. And I'm not sure that he necessarily comes from that background. I think he's a great candidate, don't get me wrong. But, I think you need an alien from outer space. Marion Ranchet: Okay. Evan Shapiro: And so my number one, to really write the broadcasting ship and turn it into a digital product, which is exactly what's needed there. So my pick would be mutual friend of ours and friend of the pod, Pedro Pina, I think he would be an amazing CEO of that company. I think he, he has the vision. He also understands advertising as well as anybody in, on the continent of Europe. I, he lives in London. He is a UK guy, but he also has a European point of view. I just think he would be a, I think he would crush it. I know he would. He's now cringing while he is [00:39:00] listening to this. But Pedro, you should consider it. Marion Ranchet: So funny enough, I had someone from YouTube on my list as well. Alison Lomax, she's the MD of YouTube UK. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. Again, if you want somebody who actually is purely a UK native, then that, that would be a great choice. So I agree with that as well. Marion Ranchet: So what's funny is that, everyone who's hating the whole YouTube discussion must be hating thinking that it could be a YouTube person Evan Shapiro: You're taking our thing. Marion Ranchet: at the top of Channel 4. Evan Shapiro: But that's what's, that's what, see, I, again I don't want to downplay Jonathan. I think you're right, giving the guy who's got a chance is a good idea. But I also think you do need an alien from outer space, which is where I would take my second recommendation. And again, friend of the pod someone we both know I think Jasmine Dawson would be an amazing choice. Comes from BBC studios. When you listen to that episode of our podcast, and you look at the way she reshaped the business model around the creator and fandom mindset and [00:40:00] really updated what is one of the oldest, most traditional companies in the world. I think that's exactly what's needed. She's also next generation. She's a millennial. She's not a Gen Xer, she's not a Boomer. So I think you know that point of view and she understands content and digital. I just think that's the kind of fresh thinking that's necessary. Marion Ranchet: If their bosses are listening to this po you either got someone in trouble or they're gonna get a massive raise. Just because they are nervous that would happen. Evan Shapiro: I hope got them both a massive raise and then they can buy and drink Marion Ranchet: And we'll drink some champagne. I'll have some some champagne. Evan Shapiro: Look, I have no say in this. You have no say in this. We are not on the selection committee, but if you are listening, that's two good recommendations from me. One from you, which, who's your second? Marion Ranchet: So I had Alison Lomax, MD of YouTube UK, but I've been thinking about a few other folks and I have Sarah Rose. So she's the one who was, she was at Channel 4 and she launched 4OD, which, awful name, but Channel 4 On Demand, right? I think she would be great as well. And [00:41:00] of course, there's a lot of other folks within Channel 4 who could be I'm sure a good fit, right? You were talking about someone who has a content background. Yan Katz. is it Jay, Jay Hunt? Yeah. He's at Apple now, but yeah. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. Marion Ranchet: Interesting. Evan Shapiro: That'd be interesting. Good luck to that selection committee. It's a decent job, but what you can't do when you're at Channel 4 is give equity to the CEO. And the normal pay structure around a job like that where you would get not just a bonus and salary, but equity in the company, you can't do that at Channel 4. So it's all built on. And by the way, because it's a public broadcaster, everybody knows your salary. Marion Ranchet: That's true. That's true. Evan Shapiro: So it's really complicated. Marion Ranchet: That's another reason why broadcasters are struggling to compete with the global guys. It's not the same the same packages. Yeah. Evan Shapiro: And I think that you, I think the public broadcasters have to think about that. Listen, I am so glad to see you. Marion Ranchet: That we're back. Evan Shapiro: And we're gonna be back. We're gonna see each other in just a [00:42:00] couple weeks. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. We need to book some time because we only work and we never have time to do anything. We need to have a lunch or at least a drink if we manage. Evan Shapiro: Sunday I am yours. I'm yours Sunday. Marion Ranchet: Okay. I have a lot going on Sunday. We'll see. We'll chat. Evan Shapiro: You're too busy for me. Okay. I know, I see how it is. Look I don't know about your Marion Ranchet: It's my town, right? Evan Shapiro: Yeah, it is your town. Everybody's coming to you for this secret. The hottest club in Amsterdam is baby bok choy. So, we, I don't know about your experience, but when I go out in the world and I talk to people, they're like, I love the pod, I'm really digging it. Thank you so much to everybody listening who has said that to me or to Marion. Thank you. Marion Ranchet: Yeah, thank you guys. Evan Shapiro: Tell your fucking friends. Like and subscribe, share this stuff. This podcast is entirely creator and fandom driven, and we love our fans but we want more. So help us spread the world if you can. Marion Ranchet: Yeah, absolutely. Evan Shapiro: We'll put information all around this pod, wherever you see it on how to do that. But we've got an amazing season coming up, which we just previewed, including some of the most important [00:43:00] thinkers in changing the ecosystem from within. So it was great to see you. Thank you so much for making the time to be with me on our podcast. Marion Ranchet: My favorite thing to do on Thursdays, I'm loving it. Evan Shapiro: Cool. Well, that is Marion Ranchet, Marion Ranchet: And that is Evan Shapiro. Evan Shapiro: This is the Media Odyssey Podcast. We'll see you next week. Marion Ranchet: Cheers.