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A Conscious Approach to Autism Parenting & The Myth of "Catching Up" with Kathleen Somers · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Hey everyone. Welcome to the latest episode of the Inchdones podcast. I have a fellow autism mom here, Kathleen Summers, who wrote a wonderful memoir about her experience as a mother to a child on the spectrum. The book is titled Barely Visible. She came into my life through another fellow autism mom author. And as I write more and publish more, my own long form articles about my journey on Substack, I. I'm realizing that the depth of our shared experiences, whether your child is a low support need, autistic individual or high support need, profoundly autistic like my children, there is a wildly shared parallel journey in this idea of wanting to help intend and befriend other women and mothers on this journey. And I think that the conversation we're about to have here with Kathleen Williams will seek to absolutely illuminate that idea. So, Kathleen, thank you for being here today.
• 0:57
  Speaker B: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
• 0:59
  Speaker A: I asked you before we press record, I said, what is the one thing that you just can't help but share or you find such deep personal satisfaction in the writing of your book or in the position that you're in right now as a mother who has gone through a decade and a half plus of being an autism mom. And you said, it's when you receive a message or an email from a mom earlier on in the journey who maybe needs some advice or is seeking out peace that you can provide and how good that makes you feel on this journey. And I, and I know I echo that as well. I'd love for you just to share with our listeners about what that means to you.
• 1:41
  Speaker B: It means everything it did not have. Just so the listeners know, my son was diagnosed in 2007 with Asperger's syndrome, so he's high functioning. And his though he was formally diagnosed by a neurologist, pediatric neurologist, his teachers dismissed the diagnosis. And these were the people that were seeing him every day. And we trusted them. And you know, with this doctor we get this diagnosis, there was no follow through, There was no, like sitting us down saying, here's what Asperger syndrome is. I mean, at the time nobody was even talking about autism. And you know, there was no, here's what you might expect. Here are some strategies to help you for the future. So we had no relationship with this doctor and the people who were talking to us about here's what life is like with your son every day, they were dismissing this diagnosis. We trusted them, so we dismissed it as well. And as a result, we ended up going through this journey with our son Living life in a very reactive fashion, just trying to mitigate every bad situation as it happened versus being proactive and seeking out solutions to prevent those bad situations from happening in the first place. And so because of all that, you know, obviously I made every mistake in the book. And when I say I learned so much, I mean, I can't even begin to wrap my head around that. So I felt this need to share that story with other parents. And it was not about selling books, it was about putting it out there that, look, I screwed up and here's what I've learned. And I'm getting messages through Facebook from complete strangers. My son is, you know, he sounds a lot like your son. He's 10 years younger. Would you have a few minutes to talk? And every time I have one of those conversations, we have neighbors down the street whose son they thought was add. Now they're discovering that he is on the spectrum and they're calling me like every day. He's eight. And I just, it's, it is empowering and it is supportive to me as well to be able to provide my experience, those lessons learned, my guidance and like, look, hey, this is your kid. Don't take their personality away from them just to fit them into a school system or a sports team team or whatever. It has just, that has been the most rewarding piece of this is just being able to talk to other parents and know that they walk away from the conversation feeling like, wow, I'm not so alone. Someone else has been through it and she's still in it and it's still, she's moving forward.
• 4:29
  Speaker A: Right. You know, another thing we talked about earlier is that there's this conditioned expectation around identity, right? And we can seek out resources to help our children with sensory needs and profound autism or resources that help in just supporting their day to day functioning, learning everything. And yet if we focus so much on what that identity is, we're losing the humanity behind it. And I think what I think that you're providing to women and mothers that are earlier on the journey that you've already lived through is something that I think as a culture we, we are starting to realize we have to go back to. We used to be, you know, people that relied on elders, right? We relied on people that went before us so much to provide peace to our own journey, provide inspiration points, to provide a stabilizing hand. And I think that purpose and in the sense of women and mothers like you and I comes from almost doing that.
• 5:32
  Speaker B: Again, you bring up such a good point about And I'm going to push back a little bit about learning from our elders. I mean, obviously, everything trickles down. I learned everything I know from my parents and my older siblings. One of the biggest pieces of this journey for me has been as my son has grown and gotten older, I see so much more of myself in him. And it has taught me. It has taught me how to be flexible, how to be more balanced in both directions. Like, I'll give you a perfect example. My son is like most autistic kids. He's incredibly sensitive to heat. And, you know, it used to be we'd get into a hot car and he'd, you know, start to freak out, and I'd say, just relax, you know, you know, put the air on. Relax. And, you know, kind of say that with this tension I hate. I don't like the heat either. My husband can't have it hot enough. And this happened not too long ago. We got into a warm car one afternoon and I said, could we put the air on? And he said to me, it's really not that bad. Let's put the windows down. And I realized, like, I. I was. I would push back. I'm like, I'm uncomfortable. And I realized in that moment that my son is experiencing every moment in time his way. And he has every right to experience every moment in time that way. And for me to take it away from him, for me to say, just relax, it'll be fin. Is so wrong, it invalidates him.
• 7:03
  Speaker A: Right, Right.
• 7:05
  Speaker B: You know, back to my original pushback was that I am learning from him just as much as I learned from those people that came before me.
• 7:14
  Speaker A: Yes. I guess I say maybe I should rephrase that.
• 7:18
  Speaker B: The.
• 7:19
  Speaker A: When I say elders, I think that those who come before us, what you're modeling for people that come to you is that I don't know what I don't know. But what I do know is that this worked or that this was helpful. You aren't coming from a place of. You aren't saying to other mothers earlier on the journey, relax, Right?
• 7:38
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 7:39
  Speaker A: You're not saying that. You're saying. You're saying, I see you, I've been you. I understand the position you're in. I want to remind you that you will survive, that you will continue to do the next right thing for your child. It's going to be painful. It's going to be beautiful. And I'm still be unbecoming and learning, too, that it's not going to stop. Like, I haven't won anything yet. Like there's no, like there's no finish line that's been crossed. I think that that's what I mean by elders on the journey. Yeah, I, I was older. Yeah, I feel like an elder on the. I mean, trust me, you know, my grandfather, my 90s, you know something, your grandfather that passed away, God rest his soul, I mean, he looked at me, you know, years ago when visiting, he's like, how did that happen? It happened to our family. I just happened. I'm like, okay grandpa, okay Grandpa. Like he, that, that was an elder who, you know, makes me think like, gosh, I'm so glad that I'm a female with an intuition and a maternal drive and a gut that can say, well grandpa, that's for you to wrestle with, not me.
• 8:41
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 8:42
  Speaker A: And. And yet my grandmother, his wife would have was much more of a soft place to land with it and churn through the things. But in a way that allowed. That freed me more than the, the rigidity of logic.
• 8:55
  Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it, it, I, every, every parent that I talk to, I just keep reminding them, don't take away, I know this is a struggle, but don't take away what makes your child the unique person that they are because they're not going to change. You know, yes, you'll learn strategies for this and they'll grow and mature and you know, this will improve here, that will improve there. But at the end, at their core, they're still going to be that same person and as they should be.
• 9:28
  Speaker A: Right. You know, having, having a girl and a boy, both profound autism, an apraxia and dyspraxia, and then a typical developing, you know, 12 and a half, almost 13 year old daughter. One of the greatest gifts is seeing how the phrase of if you've met one kid with autism, you've met one kid with autism. When you strip that down even more, you know, it's obviously doubly hard to have two children with such profound needs and a diagnosis. And because I have two, I actually think that I've been able to see who they really are.
• 10:02
  Speaker B: That's wonderful.
• 10:03
  Speaker A: Quicker maybe because I'm not there's. I don't have any comparison to either of them, to each other or to their sister. Because having two children with a diagnoses, that's so profound and so life altering. I've almost had to get really quiet with, well, who is Mac? What is he showing me all the time? That's not his behavior, that's not his sensory, you know, outbursts. That's not his shrieks. That's not his meltdown. Who is he? He's the baby brother and he damn well knows it. So does every teacher that I meet with at school that go, that little boy nuzzles up and gives you those big blue eyes. And I'm like, oh, I know, I know. Where do you think he learned that from? He's got two older sisters and he's the baby boy and he's got his mama's heart. Right. And I wonder sometimes, like, I'm so happy that I through having to learned that in a way that maybe allowed me to more quickly realize the depth of just their individual humanity and not hang so much on the identity behaviors of a diagnoses. Right?
• 11:13
  Speaker B: Absolutely. I do. I do the same thing that you just mentioned. It's like, you know, who is my son? And it's in those moments when he's about to have a meltdown and I step back and I recognize it and I say, okay, what's the best way to get through this particular moment? It's in those moments that I see him and he isn't defined by those moments because I can see that he is incredibly uncomfortable. He doesn't want to be in those moments any more than we want to be in them. And it's just allowing him the space to walk through that on his own or, you know, to offer a suggestion. And if he pushes back, I step back. Because he is who he is. He needs to learn how to manage life, even those, you know, just moment by moment. And it's in those moments that I see the kid. He's strong, he's smart, he's maturing. On the surface it looks like he's, you know, grow up. It's not that hot or, you know, it's not that loud or.
• 12:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, like, it's not this like, gosh, pull yourself together kind of thing. Right, right.
• 12:23
  Speaker B: And. And you can't do that. You just have to allow them to, to, to be.
• 12:30
  Speaker A: I think they are. I think, I think that what I hear you saying is something I always hope to instill within listeners or people that read my work is it's not to fix them, to become able to handle any stressor that comes their way, that they never melt down, that they never this. It's saying, I see your struggle. I'm going to witness this as your mother, do everything I can to understand what helps you the most and keep moving. Right. You know, I noticed the depth of. My son's only 8. He is such a deeply emotional little Boy, I mean, he cries when Daniel Tiger's friend falls off the slide. I mean, he. His bottom lip quivers. He is so deeply aligned and feels. Feels so deeply for this little cartoon character's friend. And he looks at me like, do you feel that, too? And I go, and I always. I have to do a lot of. You know, he likes watching this. You know, Daniel Tiger, it's like his show. And I will sit by having, you know, provide some deep pressure or say, I'm here. I know that's really hard to see. It affects you, sweetie. And I. Let's. Let's keep moving. I bet you he's gonna. I bet his friend's gonna get some help from his friends. And then we move past it and he's laughing. But that validation, that. Witnessing that, that. That maternal ability to pause and say, I'm not going to fix this for them. I'm just going to witness, acknowledge their struggle, help where I can. And then they see that they can move through it.
• 14:01
  Speaker B: Exactly what you just said, you're validating it.
• 14:04
  Speaker A: You're.
• 14:04
  Speaker B: You're allowing. You're saying to them, this is okay that you're feeling this right now. You can offer suggestions. I'll say to my son, you know, I understand what you're feeling. Maybe try this. And in that moment, you know, he's struggling, so it doesn't always work, but when it does work is the next time I don't need to say something. He's learning those strategies just by giving him the room to experience that moment his way and not take it away from him.
• 14:35
  Speaker A: What do you think has changed generationally in that becoming not the default? Like, do you think it took, I wonder, for myself, having a typical child and then having two with profound needs? What has changed generationally? Like, did previous generations allow for that and allow for children to work through things with more of a. I witnessed that. I. I trust that you're going to get through this. Or have we had to come back to this conscious, like, reminder of. We're not just here to say, to raise children. We're here to model what it means to be. To become a good human, regardless of a diagnosis that, like your fullness, your personality, your individuality is all recognized. And I, as a. As a functioning adult, will just witness and see you through that. Like, have we. Do you think that having a child like your son reminded that to you of, like, what? Yeah, that's. That's the best part of parenthood is, like, being that, that. That conscious aid and like, witnessing of and not having an expectation of what the next personality or what's going to evolve. Like, we're right here. We see the, the hard. It doesn't mean or label or hang, you know, eternity on this one moment. It just, it's part of the process.
• 15:50
  Speaker B: I do think that generationally, things have changed significantly. And I think it's all part and parcel with the broader changes in the world. I mean, certainly the acceptance of gay and lesbian and transgender and all that. So I think there has been this overall change of direction in terms of accepting people as they are. And I think that is absolutely incredibly key to getting through life with autistic people and gay people and, you know, different races. You know, we need to learn how to navigate one another with acceptance and patience. And what makes my way the right way and their way wrong. Now there. There is no right and wrong.
• 16:36
  Speaker A: Well, I think that's. That's why I always go back to maternal instinct. Like, I helped out a woman a few weeks ago with an IEP for her son who's autistic and has wildly different behaviors and mechanisms of why he is on the spectrum. And I said to her, I'm not going to solve this IEP for you. Like, I. I'm telling you right now, if that's your intent is for me to solve this for you, that's not going to happen. I'm going to remind you that it's yours. The. The power is within you to become that best leader for what he. His needs need to be supported. Right? And that, like, to your, like, like you were just saying, it's we. To accept that, that, that. That's where. Where we've changed generationally is like, if we can just remind that we are accepting of these differences, and how do we then lead that child of ours through the process of their own becoming? And in. In a lot of ways, it's our own unbecoming as they become.
• 17:31
  Speaker B: Well, yes, but I also think it. We're becoming different or. Absolutely. I think that the, you know, we've said it already several times. It's just learning to listen to your child as opposed to trying to control all those pieces. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you disagreed with the caseworker or if IEP now includes something different than what you were expecting. None of that matters. It's those moments. It's every moment that leads up to all those things. Things. It's allowing them to be and listening to them and learning from them in learning from our kids. It makes the journey so much easier.
• 18:17
  Speaker A: It really does. It really does. And I think the pace with which we've been conditioned to expect begs of us as parents of children on the spectrum to slow down. Absolutely begs of us to say, what am I, my rushing towards? Like, what, what am I really, if I get really quiet, what am I rushing to do? Am I, am I rushing to get to them to be typical? Am I putting a condition expectation from the speed of my desires for them to be masked by just letting it all happen the way it beautifully should in a slow and steady conscious process? What, what do I, you know, again, I guess I say unbecoming is like what got me to the point where I thought that the speed mattered more than the human, that the, that the, that the next step was more important than what I'm actually living right now.
• 19:09
  Speaker B: Well, I think that's a natural function of being human. I mean, we do, at the end of the day, we also have to remember that we're people too. We have needs, we have goals. And I, you know, despite the fact that my son is the center of my world and I love him more than anything and I want to see, see him grow and progress and succeed. There are also things I want for my own life. And you still need to maintain that balance. You still need to look at, okay, how can I get them to where they need to be, but also get myself to that place where I need to be? So, you know, it's just this amazing circle of care and communication and patience and yeah, I understand what you're saying about wanting to get there, but, you know, there is no rush.
• 20:02
  Speaker A: What is, there's no, like, what does get there mean? Right? I, I, I always, every so often on my, on my newsletter articles on the substack, try to write like a stream of consciousness, like, what, what really 15 minutes looks like before X, or like what does 15 minutes look like in a certain, you know, chunk of an hour in my home on the weekend and when I really write it all out and thinking about how different that mothering looks and versus the same age of my typical developing oldest. I think that the balance and the ability to get really conscious and like very specific about slowing it all down has allowed and I hope that to inspire others to see that there is real true development happening even though it's slow. My, my son, for years, I mean, wasn't able to even pull up a zipper, right? Like he couldn't. His stability and fine motor, I mean, whether he had a desire to or not.
• 20:58
  Speaker B: He.
• 20:59
  Speaker A: He just. He didn't even want to touch the little tab on the. On a jacket. And, you know, now he does it. He doesn't do the full thing. He certainly can't lace the zipper or thread the zipper, but he pulls it up. And you better believe that I'm celebrating that. I'm like, exactly. I did it again. I'm like, look, just to bring up things all left and right. And I wonder to myself, that stark contrast between typical conditioned expectations that I, for all intents and purposes, received in my firstborn, in completely destroying that model of motherhood and rebuilding that to become a different mother for Millie and Mac, has really given me so much more than I ever could have imagined about the slowing down of the process. Celebr. That's why, you know, inchjones became this aha moment for me of, why am I ever going to. To compare anything of my typical oldest 2, 2 million max journey there. There's zero upside in doing that. And so to slow down and to realize that the canvas that we were painting on their development was absolutely still growing and worthy. It's almost like beautiful anticipation now. Like, what is gonna be the next thing? Right? Where is the. Like, almost like, you know, what. What color are we gonna dip into next? Like, I don't even know sometimes. But it's so beautiful to watch it unfold. And it's really slow. And that's okay.
• 22:22
  Speaker B: It is totally okay. Uh, my son is 25 now, and, you know, he's got a job, and he wants to move out. He wants to be independent. You know, he could never own a home. He just can't. He can't wrap his head around that. But, you know, he. He'd be fine in an apartment. And he leaves for work every morning, and he stands in the door of his bedroom, and all of his shoes are perfectly lined up. And he'll stand there and he'll look at them, and if one is off by half an inch, he'll twist it so it's in exactly the right spot. And every day I think to myself, is he ever gonna stop doing that? And then every day I say to myself, it doesn't matter. What difference does it make? Let them do that. At least they're not Legolin.
• 23:10
  Speaker A: And you know what? How beautiful it is to have become a mother who notices. I mean, I wonder so much of what pace mothers of only typical children rush at, that they lack the ability to notice the things that make their children so uniquely them.
• 23:26
  Speaker B: Yeah, just, you know, just every now and again, my son will say something that I turn around and I'm like, I can't believe. You know, that was so witty or just so sensitive.
• 23:37
  Speaker A: That was so. That was like a brilliant observation. Yeah.
• 23:41
  Speaker B: Like. And it's. And it's. You know, my son is not stupid. None of them are stupid. No, but he, you know, as. As most autistic children are, he struggles to communicate his thoughts, but every now and then, he lets that side of him come out to play. And it's just like, wow, that was. That's shocking. Amazing. I know you're in there, and it's fine if you never come out any further than. Than that. I know you're in there, and that is beautiful.
• 24:10
  Speaker A: And recognizing in the moment, I think it is. It is a journey of acceptance to that. That. That when those moments happen, how beautifully fleeting they can be, and to not. And to just be just grateful for them even happening. Right. You know, I. The smallest thing happened, I guess it was last weekend. My son was watching one of his favorite shows, and he was laughing his tush off. I mean, he was. I don't know what certain scenes of Daniel Tiger on certain episodes make him. I mean, he thinks it is the funniest thing. And it is like this, you know, from the gallows of, like, his soul. It's just. He laughs, and it's like the whole. I went up the stairs. I was, you know, he's in his bedroom, and my older daughter was like, you know, coming out of the bathroom after, you know, basketball practice, after showering, and she. She's laughing. She's like, what is so funny? And I. I was like, matt, my son. I said, he is wanting me to experience it. So I sat here and we kept watching it over and over, and he kept laughing. And I said, Mac, get Morgan to come see this. And he went like this. Oh, he has never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, to my knowledge, motioned his older sister to join him. Ever. And Morgan looked at me, and I looked at her, and I said, okay, you saw that, too. I go, bud, I love that you just wanted your sister. I go, show her again. Show her again. And we were like, you know, she doesn't think it's funny, but she's pretending she's joining him.
• 25:40
  Speaker B: And.
• 25:40
  Speaker A: And it's this grasshopper, you know, jumping in to a puddle or something. And we watched that like five or six times. And I just looked at him. I go, I love that you pulled your sister into that joy. And I don't know if he. If it Registered for him. But something like, to your point, it emerged of like, I want to be joined or acknowledged for what I see as funny or emotive or something. It, it will, I mean, my, I don't think my 12 year old will ever forget that.
• 26:12
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 26:12
  Speaker A: You know.
• 26:13
  Speaker B: Yeah. And when those moments happen, those are the moments when, you know, so my son, this was a few years ago, his car caught on fire. He calls me and says, mom, my car is smoking. And you know, I'm thinking he could be, you know, it could be overheating.
• 26:28
  Speaker A: Right, Exactly. Knowing that his sensitivity to heat, it.
• 26:31
  Speaker B: Could just be shown, like, it could be overheating or it could be on fire. And, you know, I said, where are you? And he was, you know, literally right around the corner. I said, I'm on my way. I said, get out of the car.
• 26:42
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:43
  Speaker B: And I, I jump in the car and I run over and I'm like, you know, I'm still like an eighth of a mile away from where he pulled over, and I see thick plumes of black smoke. I'm like, his car is on fire. I'm freaking out. And I get out of the car, I'm freaking out.
• 27:02
  Speaker A: Sure. You're on total adrenaline cortisol rush.
• 27:05
  Speaker B: He is totally calm. They call 91 1. He says, I already did. This is a kid who has zero critical thinking skills.
• 27:16
  Speaker A: He already called 911, had called, he's.
• 27:18
  Speaker B: Cool as a cucumber, had called 91 1. Long story short, later that day, after this, you know, after everything was unfolded and taken care of, we had this long conversation about it. And I said, you know, it, it freaked me out for me to see you, my child, my theory, center of my world, your car on fire. And we just had this long conversation about life. And he was, the way he was responding to me was so mature and so like, grounded, lucid, lucid, you know, that kid that only floats to the surface every now and again. And he's like, yeah, you know what you were saying about, you know, some, you know, we could be gone in an instant. You know, that really stuck with me and. But I promise you, mom, I'm going to live a good long life. And I'm like, you put your mind on that and it'll happen in that moment. I was like, oh my God, he's actually hearing me. He's learning, he's growing, he's. He's progressing, he's learning, he's hearing it.
• 28:18
  Speaker A: And not only that, he's also showing you the strengths of his Body and system to respond to something in a way that 99% of the people in our communities would have a. They would give themselves a heart attack. The heart attack of the experience would kill them, not the fire. Right, Exactly. And he, because of who he is, I mean, that is. It's like you want to almost say, guess what you get to do? You get to train humans to stay calm. Right, Right. You have dealt with so much external stressors and sensitivities that you have learned so many good life lessons about your body and how to respond. I don't know why he did that, but he did. Whatever the. Whatever skills and practice was implemented in that moment is something we all can absolutely learn from. That's amazing. That's absolutely amazing.
• 29:10
  Speaker B: So it says, you know, they are capable of all those things, and yet you walk into a restaurant. We were in a restaurant the other night, and it was really loud and it was really warm, and I could see him, you know, imploding, but at the same time, he didn't freak out. He just sat there. He got up, he went to the bathroom, he came back, sat down, and then was there a little longer and then had to get up again. So, like, you know, in my mind, I'm like, oh God, he still can't handle it. But yes, he did. He handled it perfectly.
• 29:42
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 29:42
  Speaker B: Just, you know, it's your. Your. I guess it's how we perceive it too, has a lot to do with how we respond.
• 29:49
  Speaker A: Absolutely. And we all. I saw something yesterday that was talking about reminding everyone, all of us, that the version of reality and the perspective and the way in which we orient to the world around us is so unique. Right. Like, I. I can. I can know more than most the life that you live. I still don't know your reality and. But the acceptance of that perspective, I think has allowed mothers of children who I think consciously parent any child, that they're. That they were beautifully given to expand and broaden that perspective. And I think that in the struggle to hope that we're leading them to the best versions of themselves, we forget that it's actually keeping us so, so rooted in life, in the. In the present moment. I always say, like, I don't think if I had three typical children that I would be having conversations like this.
• 30:43
  Speaker B: Absolutely not.
• 30:44
  Speaker A: Because I wouldn't be where my feet are. I think that the muscle memory of hyper vigilance and attunement to my children who really need me has actually created a skill set in me that I.
• 30:55
  Speaker B: Wouldn'T have had Otherwise, I wouldn't know myself to the depth that I do without him and without experiencing going through all these. These moments with him.
• 31:07
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 31:08
  Speaker B: My God, that is one of the greatest gifts.
• 31:10
  Speaker A: Yes. And I. And I think that you and I, if there's one thread that we can probably both agree on before we say goodbye here, is that the gift of being mothers of children with autism can give you this gift. This is the gift that you. That you receive back. And it is not at all the first thing that emerges when a diagnosis happens and you're in the swirl of, you know, evaluations and appointments and early intervention and. And there is this grasping for straws and answers. The gift that does rise from it is. Is such conscientious awareness to the life that you do have. Right. And, gosh, I mean, I just read a really great book about end of life care and how the majority of people at their end of life share with hospice workers or a death doula or something, you know, and they talk and they say, I just wasn't present to my life as it passed. And I think I don't have that. I am present, you know, and what a gift that. That really is.
• 32:15
  Speaker B: Absolutely.
• 32:17
  Speaker A: Kathleen, thank you so much for sharing a bit of your story and about your book. And I'll be posting all of this in the episode summary so that everyone knows how to reach you and where they. Where they can not only purchase a copy, but. But really intake and absorb your story in a way to remind them and mothers like me and others that the journey that we are on is one of deep vulnerability and emergence of self and emergence of a reminder that we do get to live so powerfully in the one life that we were given with these children that remind us that they are fully in there.
• 32:50
  Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.
• 32:52
  Speaker A: Thank you so much. Well, before we go, what is one thing that you've noticed that maybe is something that you're very proud of or.
• 32:59
  Speaker B: Proud of your son for in the last 24 hours?
• 33:01
  Speaker A: Yep, in the last 24 hours.
• 33:03
  Speaker B: Boy, that's tough. Okay. Every day, Every day he leaves for work in the same fashion, he tells the same stupid joke.
• 33:15
  Speaker A: Love it.
• 33:16
  Speaker B: The same. Every day. And every day I beg him, please, can we move past this? This morning, I just laughed and I hugged him and I told him I loved him. And I'm like, I'm so glad you're never gonna change.
• 33:30
  Speaker A: Right, Right, right. Like, again, what? I freaking love that. I love that. I absolutely love that. Yes. And it is a win because you cause it's the acknowledgement in that short little moment in that stupid little joke. I mean, gosh, isn't ritual and routine and repetition what forms, like, beautiful life memories?
• 33:51
  Speaker B: Absolutely.
• 33:52
  Speaker A: I love that. I love it. Well, thank you for sharing and for sharingtones and the space with me and all of the listeners.
• 33:59
  Speaker B: Thank you.
• 33:59
  Speaker A: All right. Well, until next time on the Inch Zones podcast.