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IFH 724: What is Maximum Screenwriting with Jeff Schimmel · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Indie Film Hussle
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Podcast, Episode number seven twenty four, Write, Drunk, Edit Sober.
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Ernest Hemingway Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie Film Hustle
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Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker
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in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
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Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Muscle podcast. I
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am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of
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the Film Entrepreneur How to turn your independent film into a profitable business. It's
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harder today than ever before for independent filmmakers to make money with their films from
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in paperback, ebook, and of course audiobook. If you want to order
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it, just head over to www dot filmbizbook dot com. That's film bizbook
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dot com. Now today on the show, we have screenwriter Jeff Schimmel,
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and Jeff is also the author of a great book called Maximum Screenwriting. He's
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been in town for many years working on shows like In Living Color, Full
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House, The Mind of Mancia Ski TV, and many more, even getting
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to work with the legendary Bob Hope. He's been writing for god knows how
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many years and decided to write this amazing book called Maximum Screenwriting, which he
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helps you break through the procrastination that many of us writers go through as well
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as helping you create a bullet proof outline. So that's why I want to
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have him on the show and have him drop some knowledge bombs. So,
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without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Jeff shimmel I like to
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welcome to the show, Jeff shimmel Man. Thank you so much for taking
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the time out to be on the show today. Thanks for having me,
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Alex, I appreciate it. And we're gonna get into the weeds of screenwriting
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in your book, amazing book, Maximum Screenwriting. So, first and foremost,
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how did you get into this crazy business? Okay, it's really a
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story that I don't think anyone will ever duplicate. I was in law school
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out in LA and I was trying to finish up and one night I had
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a dream. I actually dreamed a movie. And I woke up in the
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morning and said, Wow, I would pay to see that. That was
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such a cool story. It was a Cold War spy movie, and I
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was thinking. This was in the late eighties, so I was thinking,
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wow, Charles Bronson could play the Russian spy and Clint Eastwood could play the
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American spy. And as I was sitting in class. For the next few
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days, I was just writing notes and trying to remember as much of the
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dream as I could. Through a really bizarre chain of events, I ended
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up pitching the idea. I didn't even know what pitching was. I ended
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up pitching the idea for the movie to JJ Abram's father, Jerry Abrams.
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He was a partner in a company called Phoenix Entertainment Group. So it was
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Jerry Abrams and Jerry Eisenberg. I think they were the two Jerry, And
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as a result of that, I sold the story to them. I got
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an agent, and then I went back to school and I was just doing
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my work. I never thought I would have another idea worth talking about.
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But all of a sudden I had an agent. It was crazy. That's
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not generally, that's not the way it's done. No, And you know,
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had I known that JJ Abrams was going to turn out to be who
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he is, I would have been a lot nicer to Jerry Abrams. I
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probably would have tried to babysit JJ or something. So that happened. And
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then right after that, every now and then I would call my agent and
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I would say, is there something I should be doing? And he said,
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yeah, study for the bar exam. You know, you're not a
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writer. You're not really in this business. And my brother, who was
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a stand up comic, did Rodney Dangerfield's Young Comedian special for HBO, and
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I was going up to Las Vegas to meet Rodney with my brother and I
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called my agent and hey, you know, I'm going out of town to
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meet Roddy Dangerfield, and he said, you're not going to believe this.
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I just got the script to Rodney's new movie, his next movie. I
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just got it delivered to me. It's on my desk, so if you
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want to read it, come by pick it up. So I read it
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in the car on the way to Las Vegas. And when I met Rodney
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at the crap table at Caesar's Palace, I said, I just read the
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script to your next movie and it's not funny. And he was stunned by
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that, and he invited me to it was to his show that night.
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He invited me to dinner afterwards, and we just sat in his hotel room
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and he had a joint in one hand, a glass of vodka in the
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other hand, and I just sat at the way at the other end of
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the dining table, just telling him why I thought it wasn't a funny movie
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and where did that go? He listened, and I told him, you
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know, look, I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of yours
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and I'm a big fan of com and you know, I grew up watching
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you on Ed Sullivan and The Tonight Show, and I've seen all your movies
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and I just can't believe you're doing this. And he took my name and
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number down, he put it in his robe pocket and I thought for sure
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he won't remember that what he did with my number. But two weeks later
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he called me. He left me a message and he was like, Jeff
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Rodney, you know I pre paid a ticket for you. Okay. You
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know he invited me to come to New York and stay in a hotel for
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the weekend and I ended up moving in with him for a year. Wow.
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And that's how I that's how I really got started. And it was
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such a crazy thing because I had no idea what I was doing. He
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didn't know that. I really had no idea. And then one day there
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was a knock at the door on Harold Ramis showed up Jesus and Rodney and
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Harold and I sat in Rodney's kitchen writing a movie together, and it was
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so nerve wracking because I just didn't have a clue. I love movies.
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I don't know anybody that's into movies more than I am. But I didn't
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know what I was doing, and I would have to wait till three in
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the morning until Rodney went to sleep, to sneak into my bedroom in his
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apartment and read you know Sidfield, Sidfield, Yeah, exactly. Holy cows,
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you literally got thrown into this business. Yeah, it was nuts.
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And then as a result of that happening, I came back to LA after
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living with Rodney, and my agent called me and said, how would you
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like to work on a sitcom? And I said I wouldn't. I'm a
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big movie writer, now, you know, why would I stoop to that?
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And it's just so dumb, And you know what, That's why,
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That's one of the reasons why I wrote the book and teach the classes,
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is because no one told me anything when I was starting out. They never
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gave me advice. They didn't warn me about the dumb stuff. You know,
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here's what to say, here's what to never say. And so I
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try to warn people about these things, and you know, some people take
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it and some people just think, no, you know, that won't happen
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to me, But of course it does. Of course it doesn't. It
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doesn't. Well that was that happened in the eighties. That wouldn't happen like
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that now. Yeah, I would, Yeah, I would, of course.
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So that's the reason why you came up with the book. Yes,
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and and so tell us a little bit about maximum screenwriting. Okay, So
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I'm going to show it to you here it is. It's beautiful, it's
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stunny, it's cool, it's stunning. You can get it on Amazon.
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It has it has a five star rating, which I'm really proud of,
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especially considering it's higher rated than the Bible. But fair enough, I'm going
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to use that one on my new book. Okay. So, I teach
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classes across the country, and invariably this is so interesting, at least to
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me. It doesn't matter where I go, people have the same questions.
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And usually the first question they'll ask is how do I get an agent?
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And my answer immediately is why is your script done? And usually they'll say,
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well no, and then I'll tell them, well, then don't worry
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about getting an agent. You're not ready. The last thing you want to
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do is annoy an agent or try to get their attention, and then you
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know, you win the Booby prize. They are willing to read, and
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then you don't have your script. But I started noticing that the same questions
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would come up, Like I said, no matter where I would be,
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and no matter you know, male, female, young, old, experience,
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no experience, they always ask me the same questions. So I wrote
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this book. That's twenty five of those questions and my answers. But they
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are long questions and very long answers. We'll be right back after a word
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from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Fair enough, very
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long. So was one tip that you would give a writer who wants to
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start right, you know, trying to get a writing gig on TV or
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as a feature film in a future film. Well, you can't get one
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of those things. You're not going to get a TV job or by the
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way, I sound very absolute, you're not. This is not going to
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happen. But you're not going to get a job on TV. Writing for
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TV unless you have a great sample. You're not going to get anywhere in
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the feature world. If you don't have a great sample or two or three.
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And you're not going to have a great sample if you don't outline the
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hell out of whatever it is you're writing. And that's my biggest thing,
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outlining and following through and staying true to your outline and not going off on
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these crazy tangents, because if you do, I can pretty much predict you're
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going to quit at about page fifty five. A lot of people have half
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written screenplays all over Oh yeah, you know, but they don't finish because
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they get lost in their own story because they didn't have a good outline.
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So that's a long answer to a short question. You know, I'm When
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I write, I always outline as well, and I wrote my book.
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When I write screenplays, I always because it's just it's a it's a a
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roadmap for you on your story, because you will get lost in the weeds.
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You will get lost in the weeds of the story and the character and
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the plot and things like that. But if you have these kind of markers
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on the road, at least you can go back, and it doesn't a
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lot of people always say that they feel that that outline stifled creativity, And
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I say, the opposite. It just gives you a structure, like we
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when were walking without the structure of our bones. You need a structure right
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now. Without the structure, you might be creating, but you're not creating
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anything that you previously thought you need it right now. All of a sudden,
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you're going off on something else, and it might be great, and
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that's awesome. But I think if you stay true to the outline, you
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will eventually finish, and then you can always go back and rewrite. And
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that's another word of advice I have for people. Don't hate rewriting if you
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make rewriting fun. And for me that I love rewriting more than I like
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writing the first draft. And also rewriting, I always find myself and it's
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a bad habit and I try not to do. It is rewriting while you're
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writing, and that's a horrible, horrible thing. And so many young writers
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will spend a month on one page because they're rewriting it, rewriting it.
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Okay, So do you want me to tell you why writers do that?
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Yes, it's a symptom of a couple of different kinds of fear that are
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going on. But look at it this way. If you never finish,
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you never have to find out if your script is any good, fair enough.
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So it's it's much easier to just say, you know, I'm going
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to go back to page one, and I'm going to write up to this
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point. Let's say I'm on page fifteen. I'm going to keep going back
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and honing it and pairing it down and punching it up and changing some words,
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and Okay, that's great, but you're going to end up with a
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solid fifteen pages and nothing more than that, because you're probably afraid that you're
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going to end up with something that's just not up to snuff, and then
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you don't want to hear that. And it's all subconscious. It's not like
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you're sitting there saying, oh my god, what if this is no good?
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No, you're not thinking that. You don't know why you're doing it.
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You're just you just continue to keep going back. Well, let's talk
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on that subject for a second. Fear fear. You know, there's a
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great book called The War of Art by A. Stephen Pressfield, which is
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an amazing book on how to conquer your fears as a writer. What are
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your techniques on trying to conquer that fear because it is I mean, looking
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at that white screen with a blinking cursor is terrifying for most writers, even
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the most skilled writers in the world. It's for that one second. It
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is pretty terrifying. So what do you What are some tips on how to
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break through that fear? Okay, well, I can tell tell you where
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this comes from, because I'm not a genius. But I used to sit
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at my computer and watch the cursor blink for hours. Even if I had
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a deadline that was imposed externally and I needed to turn something in, I
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would sit there and stare at it. And it got to the point where
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I wanted to find out what was wrong with me. If I mean,
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if I could tell people I'm passionate about a script, but I can't seem
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to start working on it, there's got to be something wrong somewhere. So
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I went to a therapist who had just graduated from college. She was doing
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her a certain number of hours that you need, you know, it's a
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requirement before you can get your lessons, like a residency, almost right.
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So I went to her. She was brand new, and I I told
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her what my problem was, and she just like that, just answered it
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and she explained fear to me, and she said, you know, there's
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a couple of different kinds of fear. There's fear of success and fear of
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failure. And I said, well, I can't possibly have a fear of
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success, because I mean, I want to make it and I want to
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get rich, and I want to have a big house in the hills and
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you know, have people over and you know all that. And she said,
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okay, but you're looking at success in the wrong way. You're looking
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at it very superficially. But there's a lot more to it than that.
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I mean, if you're if you write a script and you're successful with it,
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guess what you have to duplicate that? And what if your fear is
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that you can't live up to it. What if you can't do it again?
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You caught lightning in a bottle, but it really wasn't you. Some
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things came together and you got it done and you sold it. But that
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may never happen again. So that's a fear. A fear of failure is
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similar in some ways that what if I write something and it never pans out
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and no one likes it and I get exposed. Oh my god, I
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got found out I don't have any talent. Blah blah blah. What posture
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syndrome. It's enough to stop you cold. I mean, like you won't
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do anything because you don't want to hear those words. So you have those
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things happening. And if you're really unlucky and a very creative. By the
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way, this occurs to more intelligent people like people that are dumb don't have
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this problem. You know, they're not sitting there worrying about whether or not
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they have enough talent to pull something off. They're they're basically sitting there contemplating
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lame stuff that has nothing to do with anything. But if you're a little
16:45
bit intelligent or a lot and you've got some talent, that is what you're
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worried about. So you will sit there and watch the cursor blink because you
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don't want to end up in one being, you know, having one fear
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or or the other play out in your life. But there is a cure
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to that, and it's one of the things that I actually teach in my
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class. I do an hour lecture on how to kill procrastination and it's actually
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very simple. And if I tell you here, no one will come to
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my class and you can tell me after we cut the recording, sir.
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Okay, I'm not going to get suckered into that. Fair enough, fair
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enough. Well, before we keep going, I wanted to ask you about
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your time and In Living Color because that show is you know, I love
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that show and it was such a landmarks series. How did you get involved
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with it? What was it like writing for a show that it seemed,
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from at least from the outside, so crazy. They had no rules almost
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so like you know, where Saturday Night Live might have had some sort of
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like you know, rains, in Living Color seemed to me at least had
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none, you know, at least in the heyday of In Living Color.
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So what did you think. I think the climate at that time had to
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allow for Keenan to stretch out more and do more. And it was really
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an experiment if you remember. That was right after like Hollywood Shuffle came in
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and Hollywood was forced all of a sudden to look at different things. I
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mean, other stuff was happening. Boys in the hood was happening, and
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there was a lot of stuff that was making people pay attention to different stuff
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for the first time. So Keenan created the show and I tried to get
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a writing job the first season that it was on. And now I had
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done two TV shows before that, and I was actually working on a comedy
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show called Sunday Comics that Fox was doing, which was a lot of fun.
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It was great. I did a series of short films for that show,
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and then I went and I pitched to In Living Color. I didn't
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make the cut, but the second season than I did, so I got
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on the show and it was crazy. I can tell you that seeing Jim
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Carrey and what I consider to be his infancy, yeah, and people like
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David Allen Greer. I saw David Allen Greer not long ago, and I
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can't even look at him without laughing because he's so funny. My favorite thing
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on the show was watching him in rehearsals because he you know, he's a
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Yale trained actor and he would turn the most ridiculous stuff into really funny stuff
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in a rehearsal. But he wouldn't do that on the show. But I
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just used to sit there and laugh until it hurt. He was great.
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There was a day that Jim Carrey pissed Keenan off so much that he was
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pretty much fired from the show and then rehired later in the day. We'll
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be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
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show. Can you tell us what? Can you tell us what it was?
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He can't say it. Yeah, of course we were in a table
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read and I guess there was a sketch that Jim didn't want to do,
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and he stood up and he did that thing where he bends over it.
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Yes, yeah, he did that kind of pointing his his ass at Keenan
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and it didn't go over. So I was I had an office upstairs and
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I was the only one I think that had a couch in their office,
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and so Jim Carrey was laying on my couch that day wondering about whether or
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not he was going to have a job. And now, I you know,
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when I think back on it, it's like, wow, that that
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was wild. Keenan had his own way of doing things. He created his
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own template for writing sketches, so you couldn't just take a standard or you
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know, some kind of pre existing format and use that. So we had
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to all learn that. And he made everybody take a crack at pretty much
21:11
every sketch. So if you pitched something and he picked it. You would
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write the first draft, but then it would get passed around to twenty other
21:18
writers and by the time it got back to you, it was unrecognizable,
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right, So, you know, being there during Jim's infancy, I imagine
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he was one of the breakout stars during that time. And I know before
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ace Ventura that really blew him up. He was he was the white guy
21:36
on a living color. That's what everyone knew him as is, you know,
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and Farmer Marshall, Bill and all of his great characters. That must
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have been insane to be front row to that, Yeah, it was,
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And you know, I think a lot of people probably didn't realize the staying
21:52
power that what we were doing had, you know, not just within a
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matter of weeks, months, but over the years. And it's ridiculous.
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It's on several times a night on I don't even remember what channel it is,
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but every now and then I'll see it in the channel guide and I'll
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watch it for a few minutes and it's just, you know, silly.
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But I remember the night. Actually, Jim was the only cast member that
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had an office up on the second floor where the writers were, and one
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night I was leaving we used to leave very late at night, and one
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night I was leaving, probably two in the morning, and Jim was in
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his office with another guy and they were writing something and I kind of just
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walked in and sat there, and I was introduced to Tom Shadiac. He
22:41
was the other guy that was in there. And Tom Shadyac ended up directing
22:45
A Spentura and I remember them telling me about the script and I walked out
22:52
to the parking garage and I was like, Okay, you know that detective,
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Sure, why not? Yeah, of course. And when it came
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out. I don't know if you remember this, but when the movie came
23:02
out, Hollywood Reporter and a lot of other publications just killed the movie.
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Oh yeah, this is a D minus, this is garbage. And it
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was such a huge hit. It really launched Jim, you know, eventually
23:15
beyond you know, in living color. But yeah, I remember that night
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meeting him and Tom Shadiak and I had something in common. We both wrote
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for Bob Hope. Oh wow. And I think I know for a fact
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I was a writer and like associate producer on the last special he ever did
23:36
for NBC, which was another crazy story that was just I got fired off
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of that job for caring too much about Bob Hope. It sounds like it
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sounds like you could write it at least two or three more books just on
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your stories alone. Yeah. Yeah, I loved Bob Hope. I mean
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I grew up watching him on TV and in the movies. He did some
23:57
movies that I thought were fun. I mean, he and Ben Crosby pretty
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much invented the buddy comedy. Oh yeah, yeah, the road movies.
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And when I met Bob Hope, I think he was ninety four years old.
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I went to his house and I met him, and he would start
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to talk and fall asleep in the middle of a sentence, so his daughter
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would wake him up and so he could finish the story. And I was
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like, wait a minute, we're putting him on TV like this. You
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know, he's going to be trying to recount his you know, performances for
24:33
presidents and stuff like that, and he's going to you know, say,
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you know, yeah, boy, I was with JFK in the South Pacific
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on that. So I told his daughter, who was the executive producer of
24:48
the show, I love your dad. He's one of my idols. And
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he doesn't look good. You know his his eyes are droopy, ye,
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and you know, let's not do this to them. And she was like,
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wow, you know, I'm impressed with the fact that you care so
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much. And then I got fired. So yeah, then moral of the
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story is, don't tell the truth. This is not the business to tell
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the truth. Cuche, sir. Now, what are some of the most
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commonly seen mistakes or issues you see with first time screenwriters or screenwriters in general
25:26
that they were their teleplays or their screenplays. Okay, I would say one
25:32
thing is that a lot of people think the rules don't apply to them.
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And there are rules, as you know and I know, and everyone knows,
25:42
there are certain things you have to conform to. And you know,
25:47
you could have a great idea for a movie, but you're not going to
25:49
write it on a cocktail napkin and get an executive to read it. So
25:56
there are certain rules. But there are people to think, no, no,
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no, my story is so greatnds, yes, I don't have to
26:04
follow that. Okay, great, go for it. A lot of people
26:10
don't believe that stories lay out pretty much the way they have always laid out
26:15
since you know, ancient Greeks were telling each other stories. You know,
26:21
stories feel a certain way to us, you know, from the when we're
26:25
laying in bed, when we're little kids and our parents are telling us stories
26:27
or reading us books. We start to learn about how stories lay out,
26:33
and you don't want to Yes, okay, so someone you probably heard this
26:37
too. I don't remember where I learned this, But you want to know
26:41
how a story ends. You just don't want to know how you get there.
26:45
You know. The the fun part is the roller coaster ride, you
26:48
know, the twists and turns that you can't really anticipate, but it does
26:52
have to pay off in a certain way. And people think, no,
26:56
no, no, that doesn't apply to me. You know, I don't
26:59
have to do things that way. My script can be two hundred pages long
27:03
because it's so the story is so good. Nothing can be cut, you
27:08
know. And when I hear that, it's like, okay, yes,
27:12
yes, unless your last name is Sorkin or Black, it's really you can't
27:18
really get away with a two hundred paced script. No. And and even
27:22
if you do get away, even if you're someone else and you do get
27:25
away with it, at some point they are going to say, unless you're
27:29
directing it. You better pair it down. I mean, if you're directing
27:30
it, you know what you want to get out of it, right,
27:34
do you do? You know who Ed Louder was? No? Okay,
27:38
by the way, am I ruining your flow here? Oh? Please go
27:42
for it? Okay. So Ed Louder was the actor in the original Longest
27:47
Yard. He played Captain an Hour, the the you know, the main
27:51
prison guard, and he was in a lot of great movies. So one
27:56
day back in the late eighties, early nine nineties, probably no later than
28:02
ninety, when people when we used to go and print our scripts out at
28:07
the copy place, bring a little floppy disc. I was in there waiting
28:11
for a script to be printed, and Ed Lauder walked in, and I
28:15
started telling him his movie credits, you know, as if he needed to
28:18
know about his own career. And he had a floppy disc and he gave
28:22
it to the girl that worked there and he said, please print out my
28:26
script. So he was telling me he wrote a script I'll never forget.
28:29
It was called oh no, Roberto okay, and he said, I've been
28:33
working on this for years and finally I'm done with it. And the girl
28:38
came back with a stack of pages like this. So he said, I
28:44
only wanted one copy, and she said, this is one copy. It
28:48
was a four hundred page screenplay. He didn't realize it was a former script,
28:53
no, because do you remember something called Warren Script Applications. Yeah,
29:00
that was a precursor to like final draft of Movie Magic and all that.
29:04
So he wrote this. I don't know how, but it was four hundred
29:10
pages. And he said, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I
29:12
can't cut this down. So I said, give it to me, Ed,
29:17
and I started flipping through the pages, and I said, if you
29:19
get rid of all the moors and continued that, you're going to probably be
29:23
able to cut fifty pages just like that, right, And you know,
29:29
why don't you maybe do this and do that? And we had this really
29:33
nice conversation. But I mean, I've seen it in real life. I've
29:34
seen people write monsters. How do you fix a four hundred page script?
29:42
You make it into a trilogy like Lucas did. We'll be right back after
29:49
a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, right,
29:59
Yeah, I mean the things, the things that come up are ridiculous.
30:03
I mean there's people that say, you know, what I want to do.
30:04
I want to be the guy to write the next Iron Man movie.
30:10
Okay, probably probably not going to happen unless you can convince the studio based
30:15
on your previous work, that you have the chops necessary to do that.
30:21
You know, DC Comics and Marvel are gigantic franchises. A studio is not
30:26
going to look at a brand new writer who has nothing to show and say
30:32
we want you. It's a very ignorant way of looking at things. I
30:37
mean, you could you could argue with what's his name Coogler, Ryan Coogler,
30:41
who did Black Panther. He had already done one or two features prior
30:45
to that, and then they gave him two hundred million dollars to write,
30:48
co write and and do that, and he did very well with it.
30:52
But you know that's a that's a rarity. And he's also the director,
30:56
right, yeah, well that helps. That always help. I believe,
31:02
first of all, at my age, it's so weird when I see myself,
31:04
like I look like Moses right now. Anyway, I believe, and
31:10
I tell people you should probably aim at the bullseye, Like if you're trying
31:15
to get somewhere, aim at the bullseye. Don't try to aim at the
31:19
edges and try to be the one in a million person that's going to get
31:23
away with it. Look, the odds are it's not gonna it's not gonna
31:27
work. Can I say that you know for sure you it will never pan
31:36
out. No, I can't say that. But what I can say is,
31:38
if you're writing a comedy, let's say you're writing a broad comedy,
31:42
try to keep it within the realm of successful broad comedies. If you're inventing
31:48
some other thing, you know, good luck to you. I just don't
31:52
see it. I can't coach someone and say, yes, go for it
31:56
right, you know. And you know something else that goes along with that
32:00
is, if you're going to write a comedy, make it funny, please,
32:05
just a just a small thing, just a small thing, just a
32:07
little thing. Make it funny. Now, this is a this is a
32:10
lost art or an art that's never been actually created as an art. But
32:14
how should screenwriters talk to executives? You know, like it is a very
32:20
you know, it's one thing learning the craft and this and that, But
32:22
when you get in that room, if you don't know what to do,
32:24
it's it's kind of like you didn't even write anything. You really need to
32:28
understand that process, right. Well, okay, so a be confident.
32:35
M h. They need you as much as you need them. Without writers,
32:40
there's there's nothing to shoot. There's no TV and there's no films.
32:45
Right, so they do need you, even if you're a fledgling writer.
32:50
You're there for a reason. But you remember in the beginning of Raging Bull
32:54
when when Robert de Niro as Jake Lamotto was in his dressing room he was
32:59
about to go out perform, and he kept on repeating, you're the boss.
33:01
You're the boss, You're the boss. That's not a bad idea.
33:06
I mean, if you're a new writer and you're and you're you're not used
33:09
to going into these meetings, it wouldn't be a bad thing to stand or
33:13
sit out in the waiting area and just think I'm the boss. I'm running
33:17
this meeting. I mean, they might be behind the desk and they may
33:21
be the one asking the questions, but they're not gonna push me around,
33:25
at least not too much. But you need to have that in your head
33:31
first. Another thing, and I know this sounds really crazy, but you
33:36
asked me, so I'm gonna tell you. Sure. Okay, if you
33:39
walk into an executive's office and you've never been there before, take a split
33:45
second to look around in the office. Yes, if they've got a Boston
33:49
Celtics jersey sign by ballot framed and on the wall, talk about it.
33:55
If they have some unique piece of furniture that a lot of other people wouldn't
34:00
have or you would never expect to see that in an executive's office, ask
34:05
them about it. Talk about it. Because now you're talking to them about
34:08
something you know they like. You don't have to just make small talk like
34:13
this, inane you know talk that doesn't mean anything. How are you you
34:17
know, what's new? What are you working on? Okay? Whatever,
34:21
you know. But if you can talk to them about something they get excited
34:25
about, well they probably already like you by the time you're getting around a
34:30
talking business. And what's wrong with that. That is something that writers and
34:36
filmmakers underestimate, is that power to connect with them as a human being.
34:40
Right, and you know, all things being equal, you're talented, you've
34:45
got a good script, everything being equal, They're always going to pick the
34:49
person that have some sort of human connection with even if it's as superficial as
34:52
I love Larry Bird too. I've got to signed autograph Jersey in my house,
34:58
right, that alone is it goes so long. And they don't teach
35:01
that anywhere. No, they don't. I do in my class. Of
35:06
course, you're do in your classer, I do in my class. But
35:08
like at film schools or you know, or big institutions, they don't teach
35:12
stuff like that. No, it is unwritten rules. Yeah, I went
35:16
to them, and like I said before, you know, no one told
35:20
me anything when I was starting out because for some reason writers maybe they still
35:24
do it, but at that time, for sure, everyone looked at each
35:28
other like competition. Yeah, but how was I, as a new writer,
35:34
competition to someone that had a ton of credits and we weren't going up
35:37
for the same jobs. Why would you not give me some helpful hints along
35:42
the way. I mean, I'm not preventing you from working, you know,
35:45
but that's the way it was. But I like to tell people these
35:49
things, and again a lot of them people think, like, ah,
35:52
that's boloney that you know, that can't be true. Now if I'm telling
35:55
you, then it's true. I mean, I don't get anything out of
35:59
lying to you exactly, and that's you go meet. I did go to
36:02
a meeting once and I met a guy. Okay, i'll tell you a
36:06
great one and a horrible one. I met a guy who mentioned Myrna Loy.
36:13
So Myrna Loy was an actress from way back in the forties, thirties
36:19
and forties, I'm pretty sure. And he mentioned Myrna Loy, and I
36:22
think he thought I wouldn't know who that was. And I immediately started talking
36:28
about Myrna Loy and then said, by the way, you know, I
36:30
used to have an office on the Sony Lot and I was in the Myrna
36:32
Loi building. Well, we connected on Myrna Loy, and all of a
36:39
sudden, the meeting just became like two pals sitting at a bar talking to
36:44
each other. We're still friends. That had to have been ten or eleven
36:47
years ago, and we're friends as a result of Myrna Loy. The bad
36:53
meeting, I can tell you this is such a great one. That's probably
36:55
a better story. I went, yeah, But the other one. Those
37:00
serves a purpose because you note that you talk about something sure, okay,
37:04
something important. So I went into this meeting once at Fox, and I
37:10
walk in and the executive is sitting there. I sit on the couch and
37:15
he's playing those electronic drumsticks on his desk. You know, they're not plugged
37:21
into anything. They're just like wireless and batter fairly fairly douchey, fairly douchey.
37:27
Yes. So he's playing the drums on his desk and he's like,
37:29
hey, how you doing? And I said great, and so he was
37:32
like, so your agent sent you in. And he's still playing the drums.
37:37
He put the drumsticks down, and I thought, well, now we're
37:39
going to get to business. And I'm not kidding, this is real.
37:43
He picked up a little like remote control thing and he started flying a helicopter,
37:49
took off from his desk and was making this really high pitched sound like
37:54
e right. It took off from the desk and he was flying in a
38:00
found the office while I'm trying to talk to him about the project he was
38:06
allegedly interested in, and he's making He made it land on the coffee table
38:09
in front of me, and then it took off and flew around and it
38:13
landed on his desk, and I started noticing, as if that wasn't enough.
38:19
He had a bunch of scripts thrown around that were open to the middle
38:22
and like laid down. He never read anything all the way through. It
38:27
looked like he just had a bunch of half red scripts and nothing. That
38:32
meeting went nowhere. I mean, it was just him playing with stuff and
38:38
I just stopped talking. And when I stopped talking, the meeting was over
38:43
because he had nothing to say. Wow, that was the second worst meeting
38:49
I've ever had. Well, you have to tell us now what the first
38:51
worst meeting was. Obviously, the first meeting was so bad that I was
38:57
thrown out of the office so fast at the valets, didn't have a chance
39:00
to park my car yet. When I came down, the valets said,
39:07
oh, did you leave something in your car? And I said, no,
39:09
I'm done, and I gave him the valet ticket and a tip and
39:13
I drove away. So what happened did that mean? This was back in
39:20
two thousand and eight. I had just come back from overseas. I was
39:22
gone for a while, and my agent said, you know, because of
39:25
the strike, Yeah, right, you know, there's very few jobs out
39:30
there that you can get. So if I were you, I would start
39:35
really paying attention to unscripted television. And I think at that time, at
39:40
that by then, I hadn't watched too much reality television. Maybe with my
39:45
wife i'd watched like Bashelar or something, but I really didn't know anything about
39:49
it. And I was so heartbroken to hear that. But I started watching
39:52
shows. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now
40:01
back to the show. And I came up with an idea for a show
40:06
that was very much like The Bachelor, but it was about a guy who
40:10
met twenty five women and he was trying to find the perfect girl for him.
40:16
The only difference was that he was currently married. A bachelor was the
40:22
adulterer. Oh, this was a guy who was ready to file for divorce,
40:29
just looking for a soft place to land, Like when I get out
40:32
of my marriage, who am I going to be with? This is fairly
40:36
brutal. Well, see, I told him I didn't want to really come
40:42
up with these ideas. So what I didn't know was that the woman I
40:47
was pitching the idea to was going through a horrible divorce right and apparently cheated
40:55
on her, and she really she kicked me out. I was probably at
41:00
a minute into the pitch maybe a minute and a half right, and stood
41:05
up and said the meeting's over, and that was it. Please get out.
41:09
Wow, that's just bad timing, sir. You know what, I
41:15
think that show could I still think it could work. I'll see that on
41:20
vh one or Bravo. Yeah. I mean these the people that are on
41:23
the Bachelor and the Bachelorette, they just want to win. Yeah, like
41:28
at a certain point, I don't think they care who the person is.
41:30
They just want to be the last one standing. Yeah, of course,
41:32
of course. So yeah, I think and by the way, that they
41:36
don't know that he's married until you're like ten episodes in. It's like Joe
41:39
Millionaire back in the day. Yeah, I love that show. I thought
41:44
that was a great show. I don't know, I think it could work.
41:49
I think it could work. Now back to your book. You know
41:52
a lot of a lot of writers have it's this fantastic book, A lot
41:57
of writers have what we like to call the writer's block. What do you
42:01
suggest about breaking through that kind of like, you know, procrastination or I
42:07
am blocked. I personally don't believe in writer's block. I do believe that
42:10
there's there's things that stop you. But there are techniques that you can use
42:15
to get that flow going again. Personally, what do you what's your what's
42:20
your vibe on it? Okay, well, first of all, I forgot
42:22
to tell you this that the my cure for procrastination is in the book.
42:28
Okay, it's in here. Okay, so go to Amazon and get it.
42:32
Yes, But as far as writer's block goes to a certain extent,
42:37
I agree with you. I think it's a it's like a defense mechanism,
42:42
or it's kind of a you know, it's a it's a creation out of
42:46
some need for something. But this is what I suggest, go to a
42:52
movie. Mm hmm. That's that's what I would say if you have writer's
42:55
block, if you're sitting there going I can't think my way out of this,
42:59
or it's not just I can't get going, I just can't think my
43:02
way out of this. Well, I would say this, go to a
43:06
movie. Take it easy, relax, forget about your thing that you're writing.
43:09
Go watch a movie. Sit in the theater for a couple of hours
43:13
in the dark with strangers, right, and watch a movie and get lost
43:19
in it. If you're writing, let's say you're writing a romantic comedy.
43:22
Why don't you like go on Netflix and watch a couple of romantic comedies because
43:28
you'll start to see how other people figure it out what they were trying to
43:31
do right, and it might spur something. You know, you might go,
43:36
oh, yeah, you know, I I could do that. Not
43:39
that, but I could. I could see a way out of where I'm
43:44
stuck right now. I don't think it's that big of a deal. I
43:46
mean, I guess I agree with you, you know, yeah, I
43:50
mean there are moments when you're just like, man, where am I going
43:52
to go with this? And I'll either watch a movie or I'll read something,
43:57
or you know, just kind of get other, get outside of what
44:00
you're doing, whatever that might be, even if it's going to a park
44:04
and watching people watch that alone could spark ideas. Yeah. Yeah, it's
44:10
just different ways. You can go back into your own past and your own
44:13
stories people, you know, and start thinking about those kind of things and
44:17
it'll just come. But you just got to yeah, no, I agree.
44:22
And when people tell me, for example, another thing that I have
44:24
similar advice for when they say, you know what, I finished my script
44:28
yesterday and I'm already rewriting it, I tell them, you know what,
44:32
don't put it in a drawer and don't think about it for two weeks.
44:38
This is what I usually say. Don't even think about it now. That
44:42
doesn't mean start working on something else. It just means leave it alone.
44:45
Because if you come back to it with fresh eyes, you'll notice things on
44:51
your own with that you've never seen before. Yep, you'll see things that
44:53
you were so used to reading and rereading while you were writing that they just
44:58
became whatever automatic in your head. But after you haven't looked at it for
45:02
a while, it'll seem different, and you might spot things that you like
45:07
more or like a lot less. So before you rewrite, get away from
45:12
it and then come back and look at it. And also, you know,
45:15
if you're going to give it to your parents and your friends to meet
45:19
and your wife and all that, just let them say what they want to
45:22
say say about it. But you know, unless they're giving you the money
45:28
to make it, like are, people don't read scripts, even a lot
45:34
of writers don't read scripts. So if you're going to give it to your
45:37
parents and hope to get notes, what are your parents going to say?
45:39
Well, if they're Jewish parents, then they're going to say, oh my
45:43
god, this is fantastic. I'm Jewish, by the way, being anti
45:47
Jewish, I'm the opposite. Yeah, saying is like if I gave a
45:52
script to my parents, if they bothered to read it, they would have
45:54
said, oh my god, this is fantastic. We're going to show our
45:58
friends. Sure, sure, sure, no question. They get a real
46:01
critique from anybody that likes you, what are they going to say, this
46:05
is horrible. Yeah, it's a rough place to be if you're put in
46:07
that position. Generally, if you know the person, unless they really truly
46:10
are good friends, and you really do have you're an educated reader, let's
46:15
say, and give you really good notes, then that's a different conversation.
46:20
Now, what advice do you have for screenwriters to help them stand outside of
46:22
this insane crowd of competition if you will, or just product. I want
46:30
to say competition, because I truly don't believe that I can compete against Aaron
46:35
Sorkin and or Shane Black or Quentin Tarantino because they have such unique voices.
46:40
But how do filmmak how do screenwriters, generally, in your opinion, try
46:46
to stand out of the crowd. How can they make an agent or manager
46:50
or producer and executive take notice? Write something good my mind? Next question,
46:57
next question, Right, something really really good? That's something really good.
47:00
No, I mean, look, if you're faking your voice, you
47:07
can't, then it's going to be tough to reproduce that. Like God forbid.
47:10
They love it, and then they want you to do the second one
47:14
and you're like, I can't. You know, I don't know how to
47:15
get back into that. You got to be yourself. Speak the way I
47:19
mean. I'm not saying speak the way you speak, but you have your
47:22
creative voice, you have your style. Style is really important. Don't copy
47:28
someone else's because it's pretty obvious right doing that, you know, But be
47:34
yourself and be put your energy, your creativity, your view of things.
47:40
You know, your perception of things, and you live or die with that.
47:45
Try it and if people respond to it, then you're on the right
47:49
track. And if they don't, you might still be on the right track
47:52
and they just don't see it. It's tough. It's the whole the whole
47:59
process. This is tough, to say the least. Now, what are
48:02
your feelings on festivals and contests? Probably that they're the worst thing ever created
48:12
for screenwriters. Yeah, and I know that there's some people that are not
48:16
going to like me for saying that, but I'm still right. Look,
48:22
it's math, and sometimes when I teach a class, I actually do the
48:27
math on the dry erase board and I'll show them. You know, if
48:31
this many people sign up and they pay this much and there's this many weeks
48:37
of judging that goes on and blah blah blah whatever, it's a money making
48:44
factory. That's what it is. For the people that run the contest.
48:46
They can't guarantee you even if you win, even if you're lucky enough to
48:51
win, you're going to get a giant cardboard check for X amount of dollars.
48:55
They're going to put it on their website that picture of you holding it.
49:00
Can they get you an agent, No, Can they get you a
49:02
deal. No. They can make a lot of money. And by the
49:07
way, you won, but let's say there's five thousand other people that didn't
49:10
win. Well, they're going to get bombarded with emails saying, you know,
49:14
you came so close, you were a quarter finalist or a semi finalist
49:19
or whatever. Buy this book, Take this class. Do this webinar series
49:22
with us and maybe next year, you know, you'll win and people are
49:28
going to buy that stuff. But here's something that I think is really the
49:34
most important thing I can say. If you do the math and you figure
49:37
out how many scripts they get, how much time they have to read them
49:40
and get notes on them, and you know, get them, get them
49:44
analyzed before they can pick winners, the math is impossible unless they're hiring just
49:51
schmucks off the street pretty much to do it. We'll be right back after
49:57
a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And that's
50:06
what they do. And I can tell you I know for a fact that
50:08
some people I know have taken part or participated in contests where high school kids
50:16
with no experience reading scripts whatsoever, were paid minimum wage to read scripts and
50:22
write notes. Jesus, and that's real. That's true. That's a true
50:29
story. And by the way, I've been invited to be a judge in
50:34
screenwriting contests. I've always turned them down because I'm not going to be hypocritical
50:37
and say yes, I'll be a judge. But what they would tell me
50:43
the invitation would say, you know, you don't really have to read the
50:46
scripts, read a few pages. If it looks like it's going somewhere,
50:51
finish it. If it doesn't, just say so. Well, I would
50:54
hate to be the guy that paid one hundred and twenty five bucks to enter
50:59
that content test and find out nobody's reading it. Oh yeah, brutal,
51:05
it's brutal, brutal, brutal. Yeah. And finally, I'm gonna ask
51:10
a few questions, ask all my guests, but this one last question.
51:14
Is there anything that you can say as far as creating a daily winning routine
51:19
for writers so they can actually get their scripts written in a timely fashion,
51:24
which is that that's the key point, timely fashion, because you can write
51:28
one sentence a day and that's a routine, you know, But that's not
51:31
really going to help you out. So what would you suggest? Okay,
51:35
well, I would suggest doing something other than what a lot of people in
51:37
my classes have done before I've met them, and that is that they it
51:43
takes them years to write a script, not months. Years, that's all.
51:49
And I'll yes, I'll meet someone, let's say, I'll meet someone
51:52
in you know, New York. They come to my class and they tell
51:58
me I wrote this script. It took me three years to get it to
52:01
this point and blah blah blah whatever, and I'm almost done. I'm almost
52:06
done with it. And I'll see them again the following year at a class
52:09
and I'll say, how did it turn out? I'm almost done with it.
52:17
I've interviewed enough professional screenwriters, and I've spoken to enough, and I've
52:22
done enough writing myself to know that professionals don't do that. Professionals just do
52:30
the work. They take three to six months tops to write a screenplay,
52:36
most of the times even faster than that, and they just go and it's
52:38
just a machine. And you just keep writing and your and you just keep
52:43
going this whole like, this is the only script I'm working on for three
52:46
years. You're done. You're just not You're done. Well, what are
52:50
you gonna do next time? I mean, right now the three years,
52:52
Like, let's say it turns out great. You go to a studio.
52:55
Sure if they love it as a sample, they say, we're not gonna
52:59
buy it. We're not gonna to make this movie. But we love it,
53:00
and we think you're unbelievably talented. We want you to take a crack
53:06
at this project. The next Iron Man yes, what are you to do?
53:09
Tell them? Well, let's see it's twenty nineteen. Now what are
53:13
you doing in twenty twenty two when I have the first draft on, they're
53:15
going to throw you out. So okay. To answer your question, staying
53:22
on track is a function of having a fantastic outline. Yes, you create
53:29
that outline and you have it. It's increments that are manageable, you know.
53:34
I don't think outlining in your head is great. Thinking is great.
53:38
Put it down in some form either, you know. Look, a program
53:44
like Final Draft has the index card function. Yes, it's great. Buy
53:50
index cards you can, and that's what I suggest people do. I actually
53:52
like the physical cards because there's something about writing out a card, holding it
53:57
and tacking it up on the wall. But if that's what you're going to
54:00
do, then write a card at a time, look at the wall and
54:06
say, you know, the next thing in my outline was this chase scene.
54:10
I'm going to write that chase scene right now. And if it takes
54:14
me all day to do it, well, I can go to sleep tonight
54:16
looking at myself in the mirror when I'm brushing my teeth, and I can
54:20
say I did what I set out to do today. I did accomplish that
54:23
thing. It might be two cards, it might be five, it might
54:28
be one. I don't know what it is for you. But if you
54:30
have a great outline and you stay on that plan, you can you cannot
54:36
help, but get to the end. Just don't go back, don't go
54:42
back to the previous pages. Go forward. You have plenty of time to
54:45
rewrite it later. Now I ask, I'm going to ask these questions.
54:49
Ask all my guest, all my guests, what advice would you give a
54:52
screenwriter wanting to break into the business today? Wow, I had so many
54:57
thoughts. Fly through three or second second right, Read a lot of scripts
55:05
and make sure you understand what how they tell a story. A lot of
55:15
people write way too much dialogue. A lot of people write too much,
55:19
you know, action description. And you know if you have too much action
55:22
description on a page, nobody's going to read it. They're going to I've
55:25
seen people do it, professional readers like and just readers. They'll flip through
55:30
and if that stuff's important, well you made sure they would never see it
55:37
by overwriting it. So don't do that. So I would say, read
55:42
a lot of scripts until you're comfortable with the idea of how scripts exist.
55:47
And the other thing I would say is watch a lot of movies. If
55:52
you're going to write movies, you better watch movies. And it's funny because
55:55
I'll have friends tell me, I mean, people that are they're not as
56:00
old as I am. But let's say they're forty thirty five and they want
56:06
to write the next Great Western, which there's not a huge market for that,
56:10
but let's say they want to write the next Great Western. I'll start
56:15
talking to them just, you know, so excitedly about the original three ten
56:21
Tuma or you know, Once upon a Time in the West, of course,
56:24
something like that. And I just watched them gloss over. They've seen
56:30
either one of those movies. They've never seen The Magnificent Seven, even though
56:35
that's not really a Western. But how in the world are you going to
56:39
write a Western if you haven't seen westerns, if you haven't seen Sergio Leoni's
56:45
work, like how can you see it? Or Clint's work, like how
56:49
can you? Yeah, And I'll just start naming I'll just start rattling off
56:52
movies and they're like, no, no, never saw it. I'm not
56:55
saying see it, So you can copy them. I'm just going to see
56:59
what it's done. You got to see it. You'd have to see how
57:01
it's done, right, no question. And it was funny. I was
57:05
actually doing this is years ago. I was a colorist doing a music video
57:09
and this hot, big time hot. You know young director who's like twenty
57:14
you know, two twenty three. I know it is, but go ahead.
57:16
Yeah, And he was and I'm like, hey, so do you
57:20
want me to do kind of like a blade runner thing here? And he's
57:22
like, I don't know what you're talking Like, you're a music video director
57:27
and you haven't studied Tony and Ridley Scott's work, Like, are you kidding
57:31
me? Yeah, no, they're not. You know, there's a lot
57:36
of executives that have never seen the movies, classic movies that their studio owns
57:42
Godfather or you know. I want to tell them go in the vault,
57:45
you know, and you get it for free. I'm sure you can watch
57:49
it for free. Yeah, I mean, come on, but you got
57:52
to know you have to watch movies and you have to read scripts. I
57:54
would say absolutely. Now, can you tell me what book had to is
58:00
impact in your life or career about this stuff? Anything? Life or career.
58:07
Okay, it's not technically not a wow. I don't want to paint
58:12
myself into a corner with this. Okay, how about this? How about
58:15
I tell you a script I read that changed things for me. Okay,
58:20
okay, I don't know where I was. I know that I read the
58:23
screenplay to the firm. Yeah, yeah, great movie, and yeah it
58:30
was a good movie. I remember one night I read that script, and
58:36
when I got done with it, I was so impressed, and I just
58:39
thought, Wow, the movie's the movie. But this script. If I
58:45
could ever write something this tight, my tight, yeah, man, if
58:51
I could do that, I'm going to be really happy. Another script I
58:53
read. I read the script for Hannah and her Sisters. Oh yeah.
58:59
I wanted to jump out window when I read that because I was like,
59:01
damn this. There is no fat in this, there's no wasted word.
59:07
Yeah, you know, and Woody Allen's dialogue he's writing stammering. It's not
59:13
it's just it's unbelievable. I wrote to him, I wrote, after I
59:16
read that script, I wrote a letter to Woody Allen, and I said,
59:20
if I could ever write anything that comes anywhere close to the worst thing
59:24
you would ever write, then I can be happy and I can quit.
59:29
And he wrote back to me and he said, wow, thanks, I'm
59:30
glad you like my movies. So he took the time to write back to
59:35
me, but he needed no encouragement. Just thanks, thank you, thanks
59:39
for recognizing that. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn,
59:44
whether in the film business or in life. Keep your mouth shut?
59:52
Very good. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
1:00:01
now back to the show. So basic, ash, don't tell the truth
1:00:09
because really it doesn't matter. I mean, in certain scenarios. I would
1:00:15
agree with you, yes, don't tell the truth in certain scenarios, especially
1:00:16
when you're dealing in a creative art in the film business with studios and executives
1:00:21
that I get completely. Yeah, they you know what they want a and
1:00:24
this sounds I don't know. People are probably if they ever watched this,
1:00:29
they're going to be like, God, you kept your mouth shut. Then
1:00:32
okay, But but look, here's the thing. What's most important to higher
1:00:37
ups in the entertainment industry is that you're a team player. Yeah, they
1:00:43
want you to be a team player. They really don't care what your opinion
1:00:45
is, especially if it's different than theirs. So really, they just want
1:00:51
to be a team player. They want to know I can count on this
1:00:53
person to back me up. So that's why I'm saying, like, keep
1:00:58
your mouth shut or you know, say the right things, but listen more
1:01:01
talk less. Yeah. And three of your favorite films of all time?
1:01:08
Wow? Okay, well Casablanca, Yeah, And that comes up quite often
1:01:13
on the show, has To It has to. I had a neighbor that
1:01:15
hated it and thought it was one of the worst movies ever made. And
1:01:19
then I forced him to watch it with me, and I would start it
1:01:22
and stop it every thirty seconds, and by the end of it, he
1:01:25
got it. He understood why it was so great. He's also dead inside,
1:01:30
but that's another story. But here's the thing. His idea of a
1:01:35
good movie was, dude, where's my car? Well? Hey, you
1:01:38
know, hey, look, when I was in high school, John claudvon
1:01:42
Don was the greatest actor of all time, you know, so I get
1:01:45
it. So so anyway, yeah, all right, so that the Godfather
1:01:52
of course, and Godfather too, But I think those are so great that
1:01:54
they don't even really belong on the list because they're beyond transcended the list,
1:02:00
right, So, but I could just I mean, Once upon a Time
1:02:04
in the West is great. You know, The Wild Bunch for certain reasons
1:02:08
is great. Anything with William Holden where he plays a real smart ass American
1:02:16
like Stalling seventeen is great, or Executive Suite is great. Pretty much.
1:02:22
Almost anything with Montgomery Clift is great. Almost anything with Steve McQueen is No.
1:02:30
I shouldn't say almost anything, but like Bullet, Oh, Bullet's insane.
1:02:34
Yeah, Bullet. They would never make that movie now because the story
1:02:37
was complicated enough to where I think executives would think that the audience couldn't follow
1:02:43
it now, and let alone trying to do all I mean all that well
1:02:46
would be all CG now, it wouldn't even right. Yeah, great,
1:02:51
great, Well they stood going down that line. The sting I mean sting,
1:02:55
Yes, fantastic. I mean, when you get Robert Redford and Paul
1:02:59
new together, I just remember sitting there in the theater looking at them,
1:03:04
thinking why can't I be as cool as either one of them? And then,
1:03:07
of course Butch Cassidy, which you know I loved William Goldman like as
1:03:13
a person. Of course, his movies were just ridiculously fantastic. But I
1:03:19
remember reading an interview with him where he said he hated Butch Cassidy why ohed
1:03:23
it? And he hated it why? He said he thought it was too
1:03:28
cute, like the characters were too like money and everyone's a critic. And
1:03:37
I would have loved to sit with him and talk to him about it and
1:03:38
convince him that he was wrong. That would have been a good interview.
1:03:43
That would have been a good conversation when a lead And then where can people
1:03:46
find you in the work that you're doing? Okay, so the work that
1:03:51
I'm doing right now I never talk about. But the work that I've done
1:03:58
or about me and what I'm doing is is teaching and stuff. Yeah,
1:04:00
yeah, okay, they should go to my website. It's called Maximum Screenwriting
1:04:04
dot com. It's got a lot of stuff in there. There's one like
1:04:10
video lesson that's in there. It's like eight minutes long and it will tell
1:04:14
people about things they've probably not considered when they're writing. But I set up
1:04:17
classes around the country for writers groups, and I usually teach weekend classes.
1:04:23
I pack so much in and it's eight hour Saturday, eight hour Sunday,
1:04:29
and if they read the testimonials on the website, they'll understand what happens during
1:04:34
those classes. I'm really happy. I've had screenwriting professors from universities and film
1:04:40
schools come and take the class. All kinds of creative executives have taken it.
1:04:45
Obviously, writers take it all the time. But that's what I do,
1:04:48
and I love doing that more than anything right now, because I like
1:04:53
to see the light go on, you know, and I tell someone something
1:04:57
in boom, I see the flicker. Fair enough, Thank man, Jeff.
1:05:00
Thank you for dropping some major knowledge bombs today and also some amazing stories
1:05:05
along the way too, So thanks for taking the time out. Okay,
1:05:09
Alex, thanks thank you Jeff for coming on and dropping those knowledge bombs on
1:05:14
the tribe today. If you want to get links to anything we talked about
1:05:16
in this episode, as well as links to his books and to his seminars,
1:05:20
head over to the show notes at Indie film Muscle dot com Forward Slash
1:05:25
seven twenty four, and if you have it already, please head over to
1:05:29
Filmmaking podcast dot com, subscribe and leave a good review for the show.
1:05:33
It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much.
1:05:36
For listening to guys. As always, keep that hustle going, keep
1:05:40
that dream alive, Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.
1:05:43
Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at Indie Film hustle dot
1:05:46
com. That's I N D I E F I L M h U S
1:05:50
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