Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Daemons (5/5)

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Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Daemons (5/5) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt. Pen knife, they're doing
• 0:35
  quicker. Welcome back to a Hamster with a
• 0:39
  Blunt Pen Knife, the Doctor Who Commentary Podcast.
• 0:42
  I'm a guest on it this week. Again, my name's Royal
• 0:46
  Valentine. I write big Finnish Doctor Who
• 0:48
  stuff, which is probably why I'm here.
• 0:50
  And my host and yours is Mr. Joe Ford, a lovely man who went to
• 0:56
  visit recently in East Eastbourne and much fun was had.
• 1:03
  No human sacrifices were attempted.
• 1:06
  But we did have scones on the sea front, didn't we?
• 1:11
  Yeah, that was nice. You wasn't tied up to a maypole,
• 1:15
  was you or anything, The village.
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  Just wrong time wrong. Time of year, wrong time of
• 1:19
  year, Yeah, Very disappointing. Yeah.
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  The right time, you know, we're all up there on the Downs waving
• 1:25
  the elements about and sacrificing chickens.
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  But what as as one should as one should.
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  Actually, we get onto a bit of attempted chicken sacrifice in
• 1:37
  this episode coming up, don't we?
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  If I if I recall. Oh no, we just missed it in four
• 1:41
  actually raised the knife and she went no.
• 1:45
  Did I chat through it? Yeah.
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  Yeah, because Joe is unwilling to stand by while a poor cock
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  loses its life. Unlike me, who's very happy for
• 1:56
  that sort of thing to happen. We've had great fun with the
• 2:02
  demons so far, but all good things must come to an end now.
• 2:07
  And I believe that this is much like the pyramids of Mars, the
• 2:13
  sticking point for a lot of people when it comes to the
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  demons. And that is the final resolution
• 2:20
  to the story. Right.
• 2:22
  OK, well, let's, let's see, let's ignore fan opinion.
• 2:26
  Let's let's ignore the television companion, the
• 2:30
  discontinuity guide, and millions of miles of forum
• 2:37
  comments and just yeah, let's just watch it and see what we
• 2:43
  think as we go. Well, you think I was going to
• 2:45
  do that for an hour, but you just seem to be loving it.
• 2:49
  Yeah, yeah, I suppose the only thing is I'm so far my, my, my,
• 2:55
  just as a kind of a status check so far.
• 2:59
  I miss the BBC Three guys. Once they're gone, could there
• 3:03
  have been a way to use them towards the end or what was
• 3:07
  that? Just perfect, a perfect way in.
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  They leave. On it goes.
• 3:12
  The Doctor is not engaging enough for me.
• 3:17
  He's he's unpleasant and obtuse, and his arguments aren't
• 3:22
  entirely for my liking. Convincingly watertight about
• 3:26
  science versus magic because it's all it's all science, it's
• 3:30
  all magic. It's there's no, there's no
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  verses there as far as I can tell.
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  I. Disagree with that point.
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  Yeah, Like you said earlier in this conversation, I don't think
• 3:39
  it's a problem at this point in the show because it is an
• 3:42
  ensemble show and there are very likeable characters around him
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  and a very likeable villain. Yeah, it's just a thing of OK,
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  it's an ensemble show and he's the asshole.
• 3:52
  That's kind of that's where this story's AT.
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  And it's not, that's not a season 8 thing.
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  That's a the demons thing. It's what if they?
• 3:58
  Should have just called this one the Master rather than Doctor
• 4:01
  Who. I don't know, It's in a weird
• 4:07
  way the The Master is definitely the hero of his own story in
• 4:10
  this one, but it's kind of a sitcom where the The Master
• 4:13
  makes the same mistake every episode, really.
• 4:15
  He's sort of the lead here, right?
• 4:17
  He's the one that's involved with everything, not the Doctor.
• 4:20
  The Doctor was literally on the periphery for two episodes.
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  The master is the guy who's making everything happen.
• 4:26
  That's that is true, but I'm enjoying everyone.
• 4:30
  I I feel that the brick has been the the heat shield, the heat
• 4:35
  shield that is there to sideline the Brigadier.
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  Not for much longer. No, because that's the thing you
• 4:42
  then people then may, we may experience ourselves, we may, we
• 4:45
  may think there are problems with this final episode, but
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  there are things in this final episode which is some of the
• 4:51
  greatest things in all of Doctor Who.
• 4:54
  So. Including before we go in
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  because I'll forget when it's on the screen.
• 4:59
  I think 1 of John Perry's best and most intense moments.
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  And that's when he walks into the cabin, knowing that he is
• 5:07
  walking to his death, and he walks in and he goes, oh, I'm a
• 5:11
  dead man, so I've got nothing to lose, so you better watch it, he
• 5:15
  says to Delgado. And that's, yeah, that is.
• 5:18
  Amazing. It's a great delivery of that.
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  That really is. Well, shall we go and watch the
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  spectacular church explosion that upsets so many people?
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  Oh, let's, let's absolutely do it.
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  And it is the Demons Part 5. I'm on it.
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  Paranoia. Yeah, the paranoia is is, well,
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  it's justifiable in this case. Let's countdown the episodes
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  54321 Unit or go. What would the Unit theme tune
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  be? Oh, of course it would be that
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  one from Ambassadors of Death. No, no, not ringing any bells.
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  Yeah. Yeah, it is.
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  It is. Yeah.
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  Yeah. I was thinking, yeah, that would
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  work. That'd work, yeah.
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  It would be great. Oh God, Leopold, your career was
• 6:13
  short but sweet. Is he saying Mary had a little
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  lamb there? I'm trying to read it backwards.
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  But yeah, it's sort of but you say, but he's he has to sell it
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  to sound like it's something, you know, but they you know,
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  they're not going to put a actually when I was writing a
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  black Mass myself, Julian Glover to say, I realised there there
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  isn't really, there aren't any black magic sort of black mass
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  texts out there to crib. You kind of just make up your
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  own and they are really a mockery of the Eucharist and all
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  that stuff. So basically it's it's a
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  reaction to actual church services.
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  So you just you do stuff to, you know, to Mary have little land
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  backwards is it's in the right spirit, you know, I mean,
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  because, you know, the virgin area, of course.
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  Anyway, Azar enters fully and Osgood's got comedy suit on his
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  face from all his circuits blowing up.
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  I was going to ask you a question about witchcraft then,
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  do you know? Oh, yeah.
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  But well, I think it's a really obvious answer and I don't want
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  you to stare at me. Withering me?
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  I might surprise you. Do I ever stare at you
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  witheringly? Well, I mean, you haven't heard
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  the question yet. Well, you know.
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  You know, obviously the church is an appallingly sexist
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  organization that sort of tries to push women down and put men
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  in powerful positions that are making all the decisions.
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  What was witchcraft sort of invented?
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  Because that's obviously female centric to to make a power
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  shift, shall we say. Centrist I mean witchcraft isn't
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  necessarily female centric or you know, but then again, Liam
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  lots of women with with any power in the community work used
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  to being witches. But you know, even you know in
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  in this, you know a lot of the in fact, in fact, most of the
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  the cultists in the cassocks are men, but.
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  Generally in in stories about witches, it is about women,
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  right? And it does position them in
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  powerful position. Yeah, it's, I think it's not.
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  There's possibly an argument to make.
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  There is. Well, obviously, you know, is
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  the kind of the feminist interpretation of witches and
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  witchcraft and all that. So I think yes, yeah.
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  Oh, thank you for not staring withering any.
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  No, no, it's a, it's a really good question, but you know,
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  probably, you know, we could, we could talk over Doctor Who while
• 8:41
  discussing. How one actual witch is a woman
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  in this? Yeah, she's a White Witch.
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  I don't even know what that means.
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  A witch that uses her powers for good.
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  Yes, for good, for healing, you know, all that stuff.
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  And suddenly, suddenly the villagers are turning on Bert,
• 8:56
  the landlord. They were willing to.
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  They were going to torch the Doctor a few seconds ago, but
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  they've changed their minds. These people are fickle.
• 9:05
  They are really fickle. They are, and it isn't
• 9:07
  convincing. And it is entirely in service to
• 9:10
  the story, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.
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  These aren't characters at this point.
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  They are ciphers, yeah. Plot points.
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  Yeah, yeah. And we don't, we don't know Bert
• 9:19
  the landlord quite well enough, but to.
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  The Doctor now it's the secret science of the demons.
• 9:25
  You. Know, yeah, yeah, but for his
• 9:28
  first scene, because the first scene with the Bert and the the
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  Squire and everyone else and Doctor Reeves in the pub, they
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  were all they they're all, they're all very promising, you
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  know, and it does seem like Bert, Bert would be in it for
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  the money because, you know, he's, you know, he's a the
• 9:44
  landlord and the devil's good for business and all that.
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  So that's kind of, you know, seeded in his character.
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  There's an attempt there to explain it all, isn't it?
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  He uses all of the emotions of a group of people, violent, angry
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  emotions, and turns it into psychokinetic energy.
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  And she goes, oh, that's exactly what magic is.
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  Yeah, well, she says, you know, is all the occult paraphernalia,
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  window dressing, and then the doctor says no, all that stuff
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  is vital to someone as all. So the doctor is actually saying
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  that you're the what you think of magic is a science.
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  So it isn't science versus magic.
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  Again, it is No what you think is magic is just another form of
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  science. I think it is good dialogue
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  though, because it there's enough there to provoke a
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  conversation if you want to have it on the back of this.
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  Oh yeah. Yeah, also, this is Saturday tea
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  time adventure stuff. You know, it's it's but I just
• 10:36
  think homes and shark homes and the and the 3rd Doctor aren't
• 10:40
  really on the same side, I don't think.
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  No, well, they're both pompous though, aren't they?
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  True, true. Here we go.
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  It was just again the and Joe Joe's been Joe's been dressed up
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  for virgin sacrifice. She.
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  Does look particularly virginal right now, doesn't she?
• 11:03
  Yeah, but would it work? Let's swear.
• 11:07
  She's had it off with Jimi Hendrix, for God's sakes.
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  By this point, she's best friends with Liza.
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  I'm telling you, there's nothing virginal about Katie Manning.
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  The. Cult members tied.
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  Yeah, Mike's been tied up, but Mike's Now when Mike opens the
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  door, you get a lovely view of village before we get an
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  external shot. So yeah.
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  It's convincing as well. I.
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  Think yeah, always. Right, we've all got to get into
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  church. Oh, I love the the villager.
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  Now who goes? You said so yourself.
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  Sorry. It'll be suicide.
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  These heads in a in a very West Country accent.
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  Look at the brick in here. Are you here yet?
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  Come on, it's episode 5. Will you get in here?
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  Yeah, so we're waiting for science to save the day, but
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  it's the it's the doctors science versus Azar science, and
• 12:01
  it's all magic. I keep harping on about that,
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  but I'm still that. That's only because I'm trying
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  to figure out in my head. But yeah, this is all just
• 12:09
  different. It's all different flavours of
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  magic. All of my stuff.
• 12:14
  It could have been covered with a line though.
• 12:16
  Rob Wright, here's a bit of technology in you cum.
• 12:20
  The reason Osgood is so confused is why I'm confused, because
• 12:23
  Osgood is actually performing magic.
• 12:25
  He's he's, he's, he's following the doctor's instructions and
• 12:29
  magic is occurring essentially, you know.
• 12:32
  Almost like I do like the comedy around it.
• 12:36
  I think he's a good character. So like I'm almost distracted
• 12:39
  enough to not care. Yeah, but I I kind of wouldn't.
• 12:43
  Oh, would this have been better? Rather than bringing in the
• 12:45
  character of Osgood to be horrible to, what if it was
• 12:49
  something technical that the BBC Three crew had to do instead?
• 12:53
  So it's not. You are obsessed with that crew,
• 12:56
  aren't you? I am.
• 12:57
  I am because they're fucking amazing, yeah.
• 12:59
  Lovely Harry. Alistair and Alistair and Harry
• 13:04
  having with and the Brig. You know, on the outside that
• 13:07
  would. Be way if we can keep Professor
• 13:09
  Horner as well, and he's sort of Riley commenting on everything
• 13:13
  throughout. Well, if this has been a 7th
• 13:16
  Doctor story, Professor Horner would have been resurrected.
• 13:20
  Oh, it would have. Been Captain Kirk, wouldn't he?
• 13:23
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Old.
• 13:24
  But the landlord is now pinged out of existence, which is
• 13:27
  great. Doesn't as an aside, the the the
• 13:31
  Cloven hub, doesn't the pub look different from the pubs change?
• 13:34
  There's now a beer garden out front and I approve the beer
• 13:38
  gardens. You can't.
• 13:39
  Yeah, I think that's sort of changed for the better.
• 13:41
  Oh no, I can imagine because we had bad weather when we went to
• 13:44
  Auburn on us. It was a sunny afternoon when
• 13:46
  sort of that lovely glow of the sun and you've got a pint in
• 13:50
  your hand in. That, yeah.
• 13:52
  It must be lovely on that green. All night that was me back in
• 13:56
  May, I was saying it was having a one whale of a time.
• 14:00
  Corbett. Is that him that's in there?
• 14:02
  Wow. There he is, before he's got his
• 14:06
  hands up so his ass. There he is.
• 14:10
  And you know who Osgood is, don't you?
• 14:14
  Oh, hang on, I've known in the past.
• 14:16
  I can't remember it's. That fabulous sort of mutated
• 14:20
  Dalek from Revelation of the Dalek.
• 14:23
  That's. An organ on his head.
• 14:26
  Yes, I did make one, though. If anyone is going to betray
• 14:30
  you, and it should be Osgood because of how everyone treats
• 14:33
  him, not Yates, They Yeah, I do like the little very simple gap
• 14:37
  in the gap in the you know what it is?
• 14:40
  No, it's. Tinsel that they've blurred out.
• 14:43
  It's a a ring of tinsel that they've really well done.
• 14:46
  It is well and I also like the fact that he they've rigged up
• 14:50
  something on his swagger stick so when he touches it, it sort
• 14:53
  of catches. It works a lot better than the
• 14:56
  actual tinsel they don't blow out in Battlefield about 20
• 15:00
  years later. Indeed 25.
• 15:03
  Yeah, 25 years later. Oh, this is also wonderful that
• 15:08
  all the regulars are back together again.
• 15:10
  Or they're about to. Yeah, yeah, and Box getting all
• 15:14
  delirious. Don't you love it when he turns
• 15:16
  into like a load of paper when they blow him up?
• 15:18
  That's so good, yeah. And.
• 15:20
  Then it comes back together again.
• 15:22
  What do you think of the famous line?
• 15:24
  You know, chat with Wings. Let's let's wait till we get to
• 15:28
  it. So have a note, have a.
• 15:30
  Note, oh, you do. It's in block caps as well.
• 15:33
  Yeah, I've heard many gags, you know, in many a big finished
• 15:38
  story around that line. Yeah, I try to avoid it because
• 15:42
  why? Why try to mess with perfection
• 15:46
  to be honest? You add your own great gags.
• 15:50
  I, I have my own goddamnit. I don't bore that.
• 15:55
  Fucking skiing saying Jesus Christ.
• 15:59
  Oh, bless you. Yes, yes, in there.
• 16:02
  Devil's hoof. Prints.
• 16:03
  I see it. The whole machine's blown up,
• 16:04
  but we're in. It's purposes serve it's it's
• 16:08
  it's allowed the Brigadier to enter the story.
• 16:11
  When it means they're still trapped.
• 16:12
  Otherwise they've got our doorway.
• 16:13
  They can all get out, you know. Here he is.
• 16:18
  In my next note, for a moment coming up box blasts are so
• 16:23
  powerful they wobble the set. Well, what?
• 16:27
  When he shuts the door? You mean yes?
• 16:30
  Wow. Wow, that that's Bach.
• 16:34
  That's Bach for you. I mean, I think we know the
• 16:36
  architecture of the church is on shaky grounds because it doesn't
• 16:39
  literally fall apart at the end of.
• 16:40
  The And here we have the Doctor faces the Devil.
• 16:43
  Yes. Hello, Doctor.
• 16:45
  You've saved me a lot of trouble of fetching you.
• 16:48
  I'm very grateful to you. The Master still thinks he's
• 16:52
  going to come out of this on top, don't he?
• 16:55
  Yeah, well, he he very nearly does, actually.
• 16:57
  And and here we go. My note is one of the greatest
• 17:02
  moments in all Doctor Who. Is it just because he's so
• 17:06
  deadpan? It's the, it's everything.
• 17:09
  It's, you know, this whole bit. And not only that, but not only
• 17:13
  that, it's entered the culture that's it's, it's a great, it's
• 17:17
  a great moment of Zone, but it has, it's transcended the
• 17:20
  episode and it's become a moment of Doctor Who.
• 17:24
  I mean even that line. Rob, what the places?
• 17:26
  Is that some sort of ornament? Yes.
• 17:30
  Not exactly, Sir. No.
• 17:31
  Watch this here. We go Jenkins that.
• 17:36
  Go on, say it. Go on, do.
• 17:39
  You have the wings there. 5 rounds happened.
• 17:42
  Yeah. Oh, you can't.
• 17:44
  You can't. Oh, it's this is this is Doctor
• 17:46
  Who. This is Doctor Who.
• 17:49
  And Bok is singularly unimpressed.
• 17:52
  Yeah. But here, the Doctor lets us
• 17:54
  know how big the stakes are. I mean, he's done.
• 17:57
  He doesn't. He doesn't make from Pyramids of
• 17:59
  Mars. There are certain times the
• 18:00
  Doctor will tell you that this is the biggest threat we've ever
• 18:02
  faced so far in the series. You see the look in Poetry's
• 18:06
  eyes, that blazing fury, like he didn't think.
• 18:11
  He didn't think of himself as a very good actor, especially when
• 18:15
  he was surrounded by. But I think he can do it like.
• 18:18
  He's got, he's got the gravitas you need and the authority and
• 18:23
  the presence. Yeah.
• 18:24
  I mean, not, not many men can ironically pull off what his his
• 18:29
  costumes, but he does, you know, it's the conviction as well.
• 18:34
  Here's my problem. I've been, it's been, I suppose
• 18:36
  it's been throughout the kind of the willingness of the magic
• 18:40
  versus science argument. The the tension in the conflict
• 18:44
  comes from that. If that had been sharper, it
• 18:47
  might have afforded more of a sharpness In this final
• 18:52
  confrontation. We we get AI.
• 18:56
  Suppose we get a mildly generic as as all, as all is being kind
• 19:02
  of unreasonable. We don't really get why.
• 19:04
  I don't know. I just think maybe, maybe there
• 19:08
  could have been a sharper confrontation.
• 19:10
  There's no diplomatic resolution, is there at all, and
• 19:14
  there's no definitive answer on it.
• 19:16
  It's basically just science fiction.
• 19:17
  Now, the, the, the, the emphasis here is, is he going to destroy
• 19:21
  the Earth or not? That's it.
• 19:24
  Which are, you know, is stakes like you say it is the high
• 19:27
  stakes indeed. We're all on the Earth, don't
• 19:30
  forget. It's just this is how the, you
• 19:32
  know, the this story has had the balls, as it were, to say, you
• 19:35
  know, this is a science versus magic story.
• 19:38
  So I think, yeah, follow through.
• 19:40
  It does have the best ever rug pull though on the Master where
• 19:45
  he goes, but not to you. I'm giving the earth to him.
• 19:49
  And the look on the Master's face is just glorious.
• 19:52
  That's the, that's the best thing.
• 19:54
  I remember wandering around the churchyard here.
• 19:56
  Oh yeah, that's where they fight.
• 19:58
  That's where they find the bazooka from, etcetera,
• 20:00
  etcetera. But.
• 20:02
  To get to the churchyard from the road beneath, they they they
• 20:05
  need to have built a platform. Because you can't do it, you
• 20:08
  know, you can't you can't stand there with a bazooka and fire
• 20:13
  over that end. You need to you need a platform
• 20:14
  there. So it's just Rob.
• 20:16
  Yeah. What you.
• 20:17
  Need to come with me next time. I had Luke Malloy.
• 20:20
  We were behind the grave shooting away.
• 20:22
  Boo, Boo, Boo, don't you? Why?
• 20:24
  When we go, we're going to have a best time.
• 20:26
  All right. Excellent.
• 20:27
  Well, when I was there, there was a, there was a, a, a, a
• 20:30
  coach load of American tourists there.
• 20:32
  I thought, they can't be here for Doctor Who.
• 20:34
  They were, they weren't, they were hit.
• 20:35
  They were there. Was it, is it the 501st Airborne
• 20:39
  Division? They were here for Banda
• 20:40
  Brothers and, you know, they were American military
• 20:44
  enthusiasts in the pub. But the big drama was on that my
• 20:49
  day they hadn't phoned ahead for lunch, but there they were, you
• 20:53
  know, anyway. I'm not sure what this is all
• 20:54
  about. What was that bounder's name,
• 20:57
  Adolf Hitler or Genghis Khan? Yeah, calling Hitler a bounder.
• 21:00
  It's like really OK. Yes, he was a little bit
• 21:04
  naughty, wasn't he, Doctor? Yes.
• 21:08
  I think my note here is the Doctor isn't pouring us out to
• 21:11
  spare humanity when it doesn't seem in the story, but the
• 21:14
  Doctor likes humanity very much so you know, it's.
• 21:17
  Maybe that's what what short circuits us out then?
• 21:20
  Yeah, his argument is, look, I know they're a bunch of twats,
• 21:23
  but you know, they deserve, they deserve a few more 1000 years to
• 21:26
  be less twatty. He seems to be the doctor's
• 21:29
  argument about. What he's saying they can poison
• 21:32
  the water, the very air they breathe.
• 21:33
  They create bombs that destroyed everything.
• 21:35
  Yeah. Thanks, Doctor.
• 21:36
  You're really selling it. Yeah.
• 21:45
  Oh, so we, we went quiet because we're reading, because this is
• 21:48
  the climactic moment and they're and they're reading the
• 21:50
  subtitles here. Well.
• 21:51
  I'm trying to find out some sort of a reason as to why as our
• 21:54
  short circuits beyond Pete Lambert's very funny idea.
• 21:58
  They don't mind that here is Azar is a bit obtuse and yeah,
• 22:04
  and Bok explodes and explodes. That bit was good.
• 22:07
  I always like that bit. But yeah.
• 22:09
  Pertwee's reaction. No, I don't want it.
• 22:13
  Don't think. Do you think I want this fucking
• 22:15
  planet? No, that's.
• 22:16
  Wonderful, you know, But yeah, to find that bazooka, do you not
• 22:20
  need to be? Yeah.
• 22:22
  Bok. Oh, they're behind the wall
• 22:24
  there, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, they are behind the
• 22:26
  wall, but, but, but that wall is actually quite high.
• 22:29
  You can't you. Can't stand on the road, be that
• 22:32
  visible. That's what that was clearly a
• 22:34
  papier mache bulk, but the way he comes back together is just
• 22:38
  great. Yeah, but as I said before, you,
• 22:40
  you, you meant you see this once on broadcast on a very small
• 22:43
  screen. In black and white.
• 22:45
  Yeah. In black and white.
• 22:46
  Yeah. Oh I can understand why these
• 22:49
  images will burn on the kids minds.
• 22:51
  Yeah, yeah. But I can also understand why
• 22:54
  the experience was burned into the minds of the actors and the
• 22:58
  crew as well. Also, but you know, we've been
• 23:00
  to Auburn. It's a lovely place.
• 23:02
  They got to hang out there for a week or so.
• 23:04
  Whatever you. Know it's what Franklin says in
• 23:05
  that documentary goes. We arrived and we were like,
• 23:08
  yes, we could stay here for two weeks happily.
• 23:11
  Yeah, yeah. So I think it it was, you know,
• 23:14
  just the location is a joy for the audience and clearly a joy
• 23:18
  for all involved in the shoot as well.
• 23:22
  OK, let's try and let's try and rationalize this now.
• 23:25
  So Joe's sacrificing herself. He's shooting electric at the
• 23:28
  doctor. Lenny's sort of fuzzy.
• 23:34
  Yeah, yeah. What's your rationale here?
• 23:40
  There is. Well, there isn't 1.
• 23:41
  So there's really there's, there's not, there's nothing to
• 23:44
  follow here. So we're not, it's not as if
• 23:45
  we're missing anything. So I can't really enforce sense
• 23:48
  upon it. Well, he's sort of short
• 23:50
  circuiting because he's saying there is no data.
• 23:52
  It does not relate. Yeah, because.
• 23:55
  Because, because, because this is a.
• 23:59
  They're writing this bit as if a Zal is a sci-fi monster
• 24:03
  computer. And you know, they really want
• 24:05
  to say this is not compute, but they can't.
• 24:08
  But this is a man. This is a creature that has
• 24:10
  pushed on humanity across, you know, eons.
• 24:15
  Yeah. And doesn't understand the
• 24:18
  concept of self sacrifice. It's it.
• 24:21
  I hate to say things like this, but if I'd written that scene,
• 24:24
  it's because I'd I'd written it as a placeholder to change
• 24:26
  later. Maybe they run out of.
• 24:29
  Time. I don't know.
• 24:30
  I don't know. But really you want, you want
• 24:33
  science. Science.
• 24:34
  It's a confrontation between science and magic, and science
• 24:37
  wins. And the doctors science, that's
• 24:40
  kind of that that is the stall this story sets up.
• 24:43
  I, I, I love the explosion of the church.
• 24:46
  It's when you cut back to this bit, it's the.
• 24:49
  Model. Yeah, it's the smoke rising that
• 24:51
  looks like the model, but the initial explosion looks
• 24:53
  incredible. Oh I love the villagers.
• 24:55
  Coming out and they all looked like my grandma.
• 24:59
  I remember when too. I remember when old people
• 25:02
  looked like that, and they weren't that old even.
• 25:05
  They sort of all looked like extras from Hetty Wainfrob.
• 25:07
  Don't. They yes.
• 25:08
  Yeah, you know, cardigans. Oh, Patricia Rutledge has just
• 25:11
  passed away. Excuse me, I mean, I sit on.
• 25:15
  I think Patricia Rutledge might be the finest actress we ever
• 25:18
  produced in this country. She is was such a talent.
• 25:23
  How was she not in Doctor Who? You know she was offered Helen
• 25:26
  A. Oh, I can see that.
• 25:28
  She had a play to do, she had a play to do and she couldn't do
• 25:31
  it. What a shame.
• 25:34
  So the Joe has gone to get out of her ridiculous garb, Yeah.
• 25:38
  But at the doctor's request, he's terrible.
• 25:41
  I know, I know. It been a Big Bang at the dig
• 25:46
  and it exploded. Can you hear that the birds are
• 25:49
  singing? The Mayday miracle has happened
• 25:52
  again. I reservations about the climax
• 25:59
  aside, this resolution is beautiful and as a hack for hire
• 26:04
  I'm I I'm I'm very aware of even if you're even if your climax
• 26:08
  can be Benton just get he gets a cloak thrown over him and sort
• 26:12
  of collapses like a parrot who thinks it's something night
• 26:15
  time. That's OK.
• 26:15
  That's. After he's been so great in
• 26:18
  this, yeah. Oh no, a cloak.
• 26:20
  Yeah, but this resolution is magical.
• 26:22
  It's with them. I love the fact, because in a
• 26:25
  normal Doctor Who's story, the Master would just be in the
• 26:27
  church, right? That's the last you'd see of
• 26:29
  him. But no, he escapes with
• 26:30
  everybody else to attempt to get away again, and then it's
• 26:34
  captured. And it's a really neat call back
• 26:36
  once again to Bessie's remote control.
• 26:41
  Yeah, but look, even when he's defeated all of his plans go
• 26:44
  wrong, Delgado still looks cool. Yeah, he takes defeat with with
• 26:51
  grace, considering that he's so satanic, he takes, he takes his
• 26:54
  defeat with grace and pride and you know.
• 26:57
  Just the idea of the master running that prison in the Sea
• 27:00
  Devils. I know, I know.
• 27:02
  Beautiful. Oh, and all the villagers are
• 27:05
  going Boo. Those a lot of these village.
• 27:10
  There should be mass arrests at this.
• 27:12
  I think there probably was at the end, you know, but yes.
• 27:16
  One thing I do love this shot coming up because we get, I
• 27:21
  mean, just the master, I will be arrested.
• 27:23
  He looks like he owns the Jeep. But this wonderful shot, because
• 27:26
  it takes in so much of the village, we get so much.
• 27:30
  This shot of the master being driven away celebrates the
• 27:34
  location. I mean, we get so much.
• 27:37
  Well, and it gives those villagers that have welcomed
• 27:40
  them so warmly. Yeah, they're.
• 27:42
  All on the screen, aren't they? You know, it's lovely.
• 27:46
  Here we go, the birds are singing again.
• 27:48
  And oh, and smell the flowers, Yeah.
• 27:51
  Gorgeous. The mayday miracles happened
• 27:54
  again. The earth is born anew.
• 27:56
  Yeah, so the climax could be a bit wobbly, arguably, but the
• 28:00
  this resolution, the masters arrest, all this stuff is
• 28:03
  heaven. Come along, Rob, we must do the
• 28:06
  fertility dance. Oh, and even the doctor goes for
• 28:10
  a dance. Doctor and the Doctor dances,
• 28:12
  Yeah. Fancy a dance, Rob?
• 28:16
  That's kind of a joke rather than a Pike, yes.
• 28:20
  Oh, it's so nice, Yeah. You know, you're right, Rob.
• 28:23
  There is magic in the world after all.
• 28:26
  Yeah, and see, I'd want more of this, this Morris dancing doctor
• 28:31
  to be present and see the the Morris dancers are forgiven.
• 28:34
  And this last point back shot which?
• 28:36
  Is taken from. The top of the church.
• 28:39
  There's only one other Doctor Who story that ends like that,
• 28:42
  and that's sick, you're deaf, and that's.
• 28:45
  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. What a wonderful yeah.
• 28:50
  An arguably wobbly, villainous climax.
• 28:54
  But the the story resolution with all the, with all the rest
• 28:58
  of the cast and everything else. Heaven, Doctor Who.
• 29:00
  Heaven. Well, before we out this Rob
• 29:04
  come along, we have must do our three fabulous things.
• 29:07
  I mean, we've already named a million, but would you like me
• 29:10
  to go first? Go on, right?
• 29:15
  I would like to I would like to Lord Christopher Barry.
• 29:19
  I know I. Know the director.
• 29:21
  But I just don't think this story would be as stylish, as
• 29:24
  pacey as, you know, memorable, as visually arresting.
• 29:30
  You know, he chose the actors that were in it.
• 29:33
  You know, every part of this is Chris Barry's.
• 29:37
  It's his masterpiece. I think for Doctor Who, I do
• 29:40
  think he directs Brandon Morbius extremely well.
• 29:43
  But here he's handed a ton, a ton of OB location work, and
• 29:49
  boy, oh boy, does he make use of it.
• 29:51
  It's a beautifully directed Doctor Who story.
• 29:54
  That certainly is for my one of my top three reasons to watch
• 30:00
  the location. All born, the village, the
• 30:03
  green, the church, the barrows. It's, it's, it's a, it's the
• 30:09
  greatest Doctor Who location. And also it's a, it's a Doctor
• 30:14
  Who pilgrimage you can make. You can, you can go and walk the
• 30:19
  spaces where this adventure unfolds.
• 30:22
  And that's one of the, the truly magical things about it.
• 30:26
  And, you know, you can make brand new friends photographing
• 30:30
  the, the pub side bins outside the blue bore.
• 30:33
  You know, it happens, you know, you know, So it's, yeah, it's,
• 30:37
  yeah. The the location for this one is
• 30:39
  just. It's the greatest I think.
• 30:42
  It also have wonderful orgies. We've did them recent, Luke
• 30:45
  Malloy in the local pub. You know, I do not speak from
• 30:49
  experience, sorry. It's still hamster.
• 30:55
  My second thing is Miss Hawthorne, but I want to say
• 30:58
  Miss Hawthorne and Benton. You know, the inspiration of
• 31:01
  Lucy Mccall's book. Fabulous book.
• 31:04
  My God, boy, did she capture the atmosphere of the demons in that
• 31:07
  book. It would have been a great TV
• 31:10
  show. She's just wonderful.
• 31:12
  And I think nobody else really could have played that role.
• 31:18
  I don't think Damaris Holman is pure eccentricity in human form.
• 31:24
  I mean, if every role she's done, she's basically Miss
• 31:26
  Hawthorn, honestly. Yeah.
• 31:29
  Just glorious, vivid, funny. They have wonderful chemistry,
• 31:34
  the two of them. She drives the plot in
• 31:38
  interesting ways, especially in Episode 1.
• 31:39
  She's she's a lot of the suspense in Episode 1 because
• 31:42
  she's the one, you know, saying the dangers that are coming.
• 31:47
  But she's also there with her handy reticule when she needs it
• 31:51
  to smack somebody on the heads. She's just deliriously good.
• 31:55
  Miss Hawthorne. Amen or nonee.
• 32:00
  I will next pick the Passing Parade on BBC Three with
• 32:04
  Alastair Fergus, your host. Yeah, yeah.
• 32:07
  The BBC Three crew with Professor Horner.
• 32:09
  You know that program, The conceit of how to open this
• 32:13
  story. God damn genius.
• 32:16
  But the exit ideas are cheap. Execution is everything and and
• 32:21
  it's so wonderfully done. You have, you have the Doctor
• 32:25
  Who regulars watching the Doctor Who cliffhanger in Part 2.
• 32:29
  It's yeah, this is, this is, this is.
• 32:32
  That is one of the reasons why this is one of the greatest ever
• 32:35
  Doctor Who stories for me. As flawed as some of the writing
• 32:39
  for the Doctor is in this story, in amongst the ensemble,
• 32:46
  obviously Jon Pertwee is fabulous still and utterly
• 32:50
  commits, but in no way as fabulous as Roger Delgado, who
• 32:55
  gets his best story here. As the Master.
• 32:57
  I realise he is, as we say, consistently foiled and
• 33:04
  frustrated throughout the story. But in terms of visual imagery,
• 33:09
  yeah, with the Master, the ceremony, with the scarlet
• 33:13
  robes, the dog collar, you know, it's just heaven.
• 33:18
  And he gets wonderful lines. He gets that great scene in
• 33:21
  Episode 3 where he's winding up everyone in the village and
• 33:25
  beguiling them all with his, with his gossip and power.
• 33:30
  It's just, it's a brilliant master story.
• 33:33
  And Roger Delgado's at his best. I think my third thing will
• 33:39
  probably have to be is no great surprise, but the line, the
• 33:44
  moment chat with the wings there 5 rounds rapid.
• 33:48
  I mean that you know, it's again, it's one of those moments
• 33:50
  that just transcends the story it's in and has kind of entered
• 33:56
  the kind of the culture and the just the wider law of Doctor
• 33:59
  Who. It's just a highlight moment of
• 34:02
  this era of the show itself. You're the man who does sort of
• 34:07
  intense research for things. What the hell is the fertility
• 34:11
  dance? Oh, well, you know, it's in, in
• 34:16
  springtime, you know, the, the rites of spring.
• 34:18
  It's, you know, the world is coming back to life.
• 34:21
  Fertility is returning. It's, that's what it's all
• 34:23
  about. You know, dance around the
• 34:24
  maypole maypole, you know, have some, you know, have a have a
• 34:31
  few beers and contribute to the fertility going on.
• 34:37
  It's, it's, it's, it's welcoming the year back after the winter.
• 34:41
  You know, especially in the the agrarian world, you know the pre
• 34:45
  industrial, you know the world. You know when you know when
• 34:48
  you're a farmer, you know it's, you know the whole, you know
• 34:51
  your whole year is based on the crops, the harvest.
• 34:56
  When you know breaking ground in, in, in, in February, you
• 35:00
  know harrowing. You feel, you know, it's, it's,
• 35:02
  it's, it's to celebrate the return of the return of life to,
• 35:06
  to nature, to the countryside. Gosh, Rob, I cannot wait to
• 35:10
  welcome the year in with you. It'll be a wonderful day.
• 35:14
  Now, recently I've released 1000 episodes, you know, 1000
• 35:19
  episodes of a hamster of a blood pen knife.
• 35:20
  An awful lot of talking. Yeah.
• 35:22
  It's like 45 gigs, you know, that's a lot of talking.
• 35:25
  OK Several, about five years worth.
• 35:29
  And there was a, a contributor in there.
• 35:33
  Somebody in the depths of Atlantis, you know, and in a
• 35:38
  situation of extreme peril at the end.
• 35:42
  Well, your research knows no bounds, Rob.
• 35:46
  I, I have to say it was a struggle, but I'm, I got back.
• 35:51
  I got back all right, you know. Now you've done the research.
• 35:54
  Yeah, I was. I was found by Greek fishermen
• 35:57
  and. Really.
• 35:59
  Yeah. And while, while it was tempting
• 36:02
  to stay, well, yeah, I, I, I was tempting to, to stick around
• 36:08
  off, you know, on because Santorini is very beautiful this
• 36:10
  time of year. But I'm, I'm back in Blighty
• 36:13
  now. And yeah, so we, you know, I've
• 36:17
  kind of thought, well, why not? As I'll mentioned Atlantis in
• 36:21
  this story. So, Joe, do you fancy coming
• 36:25
  back with me to Atlantis? I mean, it's not straying too
• 36:29
  far from the our patch here in the Demons, is it?
• 36:32
  One season later, another season climax.
• 36:35
  More Roger Delgado, more unit family.
• 36:39
  More Guy Leopold. Yeah.
• 36:40
  So yeah, I think we should risk it.
• 36:45
  Take a chance and do the time Monster.
• 36:50
  Given the exciting extraneous material that you have had me
• 36:55
  enjoy, I can't wait to see what you come up with.
• 36:59
  Time Monster. I'm, I'm going to sling a whole
• 37:02
  load of, yeah, Atlantean bobbins at you, you know?
• 37:06
  There surely isn't a hammer set in Atlantis, is there?
• 37:13
  We'll see. We'll see.
• 37:14
  You know, I'm, I'm sure I can, I can dig up some stuff if it, if
• 37:18
  it's pertinent because you know, it's not relevant.
• 37:21
  We won't do it. But you never know.
• 37:23
  You never know. It's it'll, it'll be a fun romp
• 37:27
  if nothing else. Well, until we Plumb the depths
• 37:31
  of Ingrid Pitt's tits, may I ask?
• 37:36
  Thank you. Before we go, I've got 22
• 37:39
  podcast recommendations before. Yes, you always do this.
• 37:42
  Go on. Yeah, yeah, one of them is
• 37:45
  again, a favorite podcaster. Might hit Nagoria it's a
• 37:49
  three-part investigation into the lower Quinton pitchfork
• 37:53
  murder which played a big of 1945 which played a big part in
• 37:59
  the creation of this this sub genre of of folk horror.
• 38:05
  And the other one is Matthew Sweet of, of this parishes Radio
• 38:11
  4 documentary, Black Aquarius, which features contributions
• 38:18
  from Mark Gatiss and Katie Manning.
• 38:20
  But it's all about this vein of, of occultory and purple robes,
• 38:28
  occult shenanigans that kind of, you know, went on in the 60s and
• 38:32
  70s. So that's worth a listen to.
• 38:36
  Rob, you continue to be one of my favorite people.
• 38:40
  You put in so much effort when you come into these hamster
• 38:43
  commentaries. We've I've learned so much with
• 38:47
  you. And then I then I forget most to
• 38:49
  mention most of it and we just. No, but then, then all the stuff
• 38:53
  we teach, we get to extend to the ham fam, which is just
• 38:56
  wonderful. Thank you so much for your time
• 39:00
  and and to Atlantis. I'll, I will see you there.