Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #529 The Growth Mindset with James Anderson

Transcript

#529 The Growth Mindset with James Anderson · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:07
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now.
0:10
Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson.
0:12
Speaker 3: I'm the founder of Happy Families dot com, dot you
0:14
Speaker 3: and the parenting expert on Channel Line's Parental Guidance. School
0:18
Speaker 3: is one of those topics that comes up all the
0:20
Speaker 3: time in conversations with parents, mainly around kids doing their
0:25
Speaker 3: best or, if not doing their best, achieving their potential.
0:28
Speaker 2: Two phrases that kind of great me because you.
0:31
Speaker 3: Can never really do your best and what adult do
0:33
Speaker 3: you know who's able really achieve their potential.
0:36
Speaker 2: Nevertheless, in spite of it all.
0:38
Speaker 3: We want our children to do well at school, with
0:40
Speaker 3: the belief and reasonable belief as well, that by doing
0:44
Speaker 3: well at school, they'll establish the habits of mind, the
0:47
Speaker 3: habits of character that will help them to do well
0:50
Speaker 3: throughout the rest of their lives, whether they pursue an
0:52
Speaker 3: academic journey or not. They know how to persevere, know
0:55
Speaker 3: how to do hard things and get stuck in when
0:58
Speaker 3: they're going is hard. In spite of our desires for
1:02
Speaker 3: our children to do well at school, the reality is
1:05
Speaker 3: that some of our kids sit in front of their
1:08
Speaker 3: laptop or their tablet, or their homework sheet or whatever
1:11
Speaker 3: it might be, and they have a dummy spit.
1:13
Speaker 2: They say, I hate this, I can't do it, this
1:15
Speaker 2: is the worst. Why do I have to do this?
1:17
Speaker 3: And when there's something that they can't do, they actively
1:21
Speaker 3: avoid it, They procrastinate, they do everything they can to
1:24
Speaker 3: get out of it. Today's guest on the Happy Families
1:27
Speaker 3: Podcast is someone with a few ideas about how we
1:29
Speaker 3: can help when our children are having these moments. His
1:33
Speaker 3: name is James Anderson. James is an Australian based international speaker, author, educator.
1:39
Speaker 3: He was a teacher and a school leader, but for
1:41
Speaker 3: the last twenty years he's been working with schools to
1:45
Speaker 3: make classrooms more thoughtful places and to help parents to
1:50
Speaker 3: guide their children as they develop a healthy mindset towards
1:54
Speaker 3: learning and development. You can find out more about James
1:57
Speaker 3: Anderson and his work at James Anderson dot com. But
2:00
Speaker 3: he joins me for the Happy Families Podcast today to
2:03
Speaker 3: talk about how we can unlimit our children.
2:06
Speaker 4: James, Welcome to the podcast. Great to have you along.
2:09
Speaker 1: Thanks Justin, it's great to be here. It's interesting you
2:12
Speaker 1: should mention students that dummy s bit don't want to
2:15
Speaker 1: do this, And you know those sort of behaviors because
2:18
Speaker 1: from their perspective, those behaviors are often perfectly sensible things
2:22
Speaker 1: to do because they've built these beliefs around them that
2:26
Speaker 1: their effort won't pay off, that trying will just result
2:29
Speaker 1: in failure. So when you believe those sort of things,
2:33
Speaker 1: not putting the effort in avoiding the challenges just makes sense.
2:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I was that kid. I was literally that kid.
2:39
Speaker 3: I scored on the bottom fifteen percent of the state
2:41
Speaker 3: when I did Year twelve. But a true story, I
2:44
Speaker 3: remember I would sorry, I don't remember. My grandma told
2:47
Speaker 3: me that she remembers a time where she walked into
2:48
Speaker 3: the bedroom she was babysitting us because my parents had
2:51
Speaker 3: gone on a trip and Nan was the designated long
2:55
Speaker 3: term babysitter. She could smell smoke and when she walked
2:58
Speaker 3: into the bedroom, I had a ill rubbish bin under
3:01
Speaker 3: my desk and I had set fire to my homework
3:03
Speaker 3: because I couldn't do it. That was my way of
3:05
Speaker 3: avoiding it, saying no, I can't do it, it's too hard.
3:07
Speaker 1: Exactly. I've got a similar experience. First week of year seven,
3:12
Speaker 1: I had my first ever music lesson like I had
3:15
Speaker 1: music classes before, but never with a music teacher in
3:17
Speaker 1: a music classroom. And I walked in there, I was
3:20
Speaker 1: blown away. It was so exciting. The classroom, unlike every
3:24
Speaker 1: other classroom that was set up in Rows, had two
3:26
Speaker 1: drum kits set up in the middle of the room
3:28
Speaker 1: full kids. Down the side of the room all these bongos,
3:32
Speaker 1: and the other one row of tables. All the kids
3:34
Speaker 1: had drumsticks. Within five minutes of this lesson starting, the
3:38
Speaker 1: kids on the drum kits are going boom boom like this,
3:42
Speaker 1: the kids on the bongos going, the kids on the sticks,
3:47
Speaker 1: We're getting these rhythms going. It is the coolest lesson
3:50
Speaker 1: in the world. I am engaged, I'm focused, Like who
3:54
Speaker 1: wants their children to be engaged and focused and working
3:56
Speaker 1: hard like that. We went through the whole lesson and
4:00
Speaker 1: the teacher at the end of the lesson said, boys,
4:02
Speaker 1: it was a boys school. Boys, before you go, I
4:05
Speaker 1: just want to see who can do this. Now, listen
4:08
Speaker 1: to those words. He was testing us. He didn't say
4:11
Speaker 1: it out loud, he said, I want to see who
4:13
Speaker 1: can do this. He put up a rhythm on the board.
4:18
Speaker 1: You ent tatar tit on your left hand and t
4:20
Speaker 1: T tartar. Do you remember all those Tatar t T stuff?
4:23
Speaker 4: No, no, I don't.
4:25
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is.
4:26
Speaker 1: But let's do its long beats and shit, then short beats.
4:29
Speaker 2: Okay.
4:30
Speaker 1: Anyway, he counted us in. He said one, two, three, four,
4:34
Speaker 1: and then thirty year seven boys. None of us could
4:38
Speaker 1: do it. I went home and I thought, how hard
4:40
Speaker 1: can this be? Because remember, I'm engaged, I'm focused, I'm
4:43
Speaker 1: wanting to do this work. I went home and I'll
4:45
Speaker 1: date myself here. Do you remember flipping out computer paper
4:49
Speaker 1: when you were younger?
4:50
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, with the dots or the holes down the
4:53
Speaker 3: side and your tear off the edges.
4:54
Speaker 2: I remember that. That's the what am.
4:56
Speaker 1: I flipped out some computer paper on the kitchen bench.
4:58
Speaker 1: I drew a line down the MI. I marked out
5:01
Speaker 1: the tempo for my left hand. I marked out the
5:03
Speaker 1: tempo for my right hand. I walked up and down
5:06
Speaker 1: this paper working out what the rhythm was. They had
5:08
Speaker 1: to be a pattern involved. Anyway, it took me hours.
5:12
Speaker 1: Eventually I worked it out and I went back to
5:15
Speaker 1: the teacher the next day and I said, hey, was
5:17
Speaker 1: this the thing you asked us to do? And I
5:19
Speaker 1: did it for him, and his face lit up. He said, James,
5:22
Speaker 1: that's amazing, that's incredible, well done. How did you do that?
5:26
Speaker 1: And I told him about all my hard work, about
5:28
Speaker 1: the concentration, the focus, all the rest of it, and
5:31
Speaker 1: he said, ah, so you can't really do it then?
5:36
Speaker 2: No.
5:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, you see in his world there were people who
5:40
Speaker 1: could just do it and other people who had to
5:43
Speaker 1: work hard instead. Now you've guessed, you've gone. Of course,
5:48
Speaker 1: no one would say that. At my children's school. That
5:51
Speaker 1: happens all that time. Not from teachers necessarily, but every
5:55
Speaker 1: time you hear a child go, I'm not like Justin.
5:59
Speaker 1: Justin is really good, Matts, I'm not like them. Every
6:02
Speaker 1: time we say to our child that, you know, I
6:05
Speaker 1: wasn't very good at writing at school either, No, wonder
6:07
Speaker 1: you're not good at writing. Every time we attribute someone's
6:11
Speaker 1: abilities to who they are rather than what they've done,
6:15
Speaker 1: we create what I call is this greatness gape. And
6:18
Speaker 1: when we do that, we build these self limiting beliefs
6:22
Speaker 1: around us. When I went back to that music lesson
6:25
Speaker 1: next time, where do you reckon?
6:26
Speaker 2: I sat back of the class, not involved.
6:30
Speaker 1: That's right. How many times do I volunteer to try something.
6:32
Speaker 2: Well, you're not a natural. You've been told.
6:35
Speaker 3: Even as you're saying that, I'm thinking you're talking about
6:37
Speaker 3: parents and teachers who say this sort of stuff, But
6:39
Speaker 3: the media promotes us as well. I'm thinking of when
6:42
Speaker 3: you're watching sport on TV and the commentators will talk
6:45
Speaker 3: about how this person's got a natural gift. They'll talk
6:49
Speaker 3: about the history of an Olympian. They jumped in the
6:52
Speaker 3: pool and they just knew how to swim a sub
6:55
Speaker 3: forty five second one hundred meters freestyle sort of thing.
6:58
Speaker 4: There's no recognition there of of the process that's.
7:01
Speaker 1: Right, And that's one of the strategies I talk about
7:04
Speaker 1: with parents is to value the backstory. Is whenever we
7:08
Speaker 1: see what it looks like effortless ability, it reminds me
7:12
Speaker 1: of it takes a lot of effort to make something
7:15
Speaker 1: look effortless, and you see someone doing it so easily,
7:19
Speaker 1: but the reason they do it easily is all the
7:21
Speaker 1: effort put in behind the scenes that you didn't see. Now,
7:26
Speaker 1: I was still passionate about music. I love my music,
7:29
Speaker 1: but I never once went to a music lesson. I
7:31
Speaker 1: never once volunteered to go on the school production any
7:34
Speaker 1: of those things, and worse, when a music teacher or
7:38
Speaker 1: any teacher for that matter, would say, oh, James, you're
7:41
Speaker 1: working really hard today. Keep up the hard work, I'd go,
7:46
Speaker 1: I'm one of the kids who has to work hard.
7:48
Speaker 1: So when you get these self limiting beliefs, when you
7:51
Speaker 1: get these ideas that people are just different, someone encourages
7:55
Speaker 1: you for effort. And this is what we're being told
7:57
Speaker 1: in social media. Encourage kids. Praise effort. Don't praise the product,
8:01
Speaker 1: praise the effort. But if you've got those beliefs that
8:05
Speaker 1: people are just different and effort makes up for a deficit,
8:09
Speaker 1: then the minute someone says great effort, keep up the
8:11
Speaker 1: hard work, you hear you must be stupid or you
8:15
Speaker 1: wouldn't have to work so hard. Doesn't matter what the
8:18
Speaker 1: parents trying to say. What the student with the child
8:21
Speaker 1: receives is that message that they have to work hard.
8:25
Speaker 3: James, when you talk about this, you're singing from the
8:28
Speaker 3: same songbook that I sing from. Carol Dweck has made
8:32
Speaker 3: her name in the popular culture because of this idea
8:36
Speaker 3: of a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. And the
8:38
Speaker 3: thing that most people latch onto here is when you
8:41
Speaker 3: praise kids for effort rather than outcome, you get better results.
8:45
Speaker 3: And she's got a few studies that will certainly support
8:47
Speaker 3: that approach. But the issue is somebody is still being
8:50
Speaker 3: praised after the break. Let's talk about what we can
8:52
Speaker 3: do instead to help our kids actually have a genuine
8:56
Speaker 3: motivation to approach things that are hard and that they
9:00
Speaker 3: can't even do. Get curious, not furious. Be we your
9:08
Speaker 3: feeder mistakes lead to mastery, high emotions, low intelligence. Have
9:13
Speaker 3: you ever heard these or any of the other principles
9:16
Speaker 3: I share and thought I need to stick that on
9:18
Speaker 3: my wall?
9:18
Speaker 2: Well now you can.
9:19
Speaker 3: The Happy Family team has pulled out the best justicisms
9:22
Speaker 3: for a five mini posters, perfect for your home or
9:25
Speaker 3: even the classroom, and easy to grab at happy families
9:28
Speaker 3: dot com, dot a you. It's the Happy Families Podcast,
9:31
Speaker 3: the podcast of the type or parent who just wants
9:33
Speaker 3: answers now. My guest today on the pod is James Anderson.
9:37
Speaker 3: James works in schools and with parents around issues related
9:41
Speaker 3: to helping our children to become skillful learners, to move
9:45
Speaker 3: into what we would typically call today a growth mindset. James,
9:49
Speaker 3: let's talk about this issue. We've got kids who are
9:51
Speaker 3: avoiding something because they're going to have to put in
9:54
Speaker 3: effort and that's going to make them look dumb. What
9:57
Speaker 3: do you normally talk to parents and teachers about in
9:59
Speaker 3: relation to helping kids to have a desire to try
10:02
Speaker 3: something hard.
10:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose a couple of things to talk about. First,
10:07
Speaker 1: you mentioned Carol Dwex work, and everything I'm talking about
10:09
Speaker 1: is based on Carol Dwex work, but there's some common
10:13
Speaker 1: misunderstandings about it. This idea of fixed versus growth is
10:16
Speaker 1: something we probably need to discuss because while Carroldweck certainly
10:21
Speaker 1: talks about a fixed mindset or a growth mindset, that's
10:25
Speaker 1: really useful in understanding the concepts and why it's important,
10:28
Speaker 1: but in reality, no one has a fixed mindset and
10:31
Speaker 1: no one has a growth mindset. To understand how to
10:35
Speaker 1: change mindsets, it's more helpful to think about it as
10:39
Speaker 1: a continuum. And one of the pieces of work that
10:41
Speaker 1: I've contributed here is to describe mindset as something that
10:44
Speaker 1: you don't adopt, you don't install, you don't instill, but
10:48
Speaker 1: rather you encourage an increasingly growth orientated mindset. The problem
10:53
Speaker 1: has been that a lot of people have said, oh,
10:56
Speaker 1: you meant to have a growth mindset. Growth mindset's really important.
10:59
Speaker 1: We should have one of those, justin have a growth mindset.
11:02
Speaker 1: Your mindset's one of your most fundamental beliefs about yourself,
11:07
Speaker 1: and you can't just change it in an instant. It's
11:10
Speaker 1: part of what we call your unconscious bias. It's the
11:13
Speaker 1: reaction we have when we're not paying attention. When we
11:17
Speaker 1: talk about changing mindsets. What we're going to understand is
11:20
Speaker 1: it's not something you can just tell people about. What
11:23
Speaker 1: we need to do is to expose them to a
11:25
Speaker 1: series of experiences over a long period of time and
11:29
Speaker 1: slowly nudge, nourish, nurture an increasingly growth orientated mindset to
11:35
Speaker 1: move them along that continuum.
11:37
Speaker 3: When you say that, it reminds me of my early career.
11:40
Speaker 3: Before I did what I do now, I was a
11:42
Speaker 3: radio announcer, and what I discovered early on was that
11:46
Speaker 3: if I wanted to get good at radio and end
11:48
Speaker 3: up at one of the big capital city stations and
11:50
Speaker 3: have all the cool stuff that radio announcers get to do,
11:53
Speaker 3: I needed to get good at receiving feedback and I
11:57
Speaker 3: hated feedback. James, when my program direct, I would sit
12:00
Speaker 3: down and say, let's talk about what you just said
12:02
Speaker 3: on the radio half an hour ago, I'd cringe. I'd
12:04
Speaker 3: want to hide onto the table because I knew that
12:05
Speaker 3: I'd blown it or I wasn't as good as I
12:08
Speaker 3: needed to be. What I ended up doing was shifting
12:11
Speaker 3: my focus entirely so that I actively sought that feedback out.
12:14
Speaker 3: I would record myself on the radio, send cassette tapes
12:17
Speaker 3: because I'm dating myself as well. I'd send cassette tapes
12:20
Speaker 3: all around the country to the program directors at the
12:22
Speaker 3: best radio stations in the country and say, Hi, Mike
12:25
Speaker 3: or high Rod, I want to work at your radio
12:28
Speaker 3: station one day. But at the moment, here's where I am.
12:30
Speaker 3: Could you have listened to my tape and maybe send
12:33
Speaker 3: me one or two things that I can do to
12:35
Speaker 3: be good enough to work for you one day? And
12:38
Speaker 3: then that shifted my mindset. It made me go from oh, no,
12:42
Speaker 3: I'm scared of the feedback it's going to make me
12:44
Speaker 3: looking competent to I've got a goal, I've got something
12:46
Speaker 3: I'm working towards, and these people can help me to
12:48
Speaker 3: get there. And ultimately I did.
12:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that understanding you just talked about is to
12:54
Speaker 1: recognize that the assessment that you're receiving. The feedback that
12:58
Speaker 1: you're receiving is about where you are, not who you are.
13:02
Speaker 1: It tells you where you're up to. It doesn't judge
13:04
Speaker 1: who you are.
13:04
Speaker 2: Love that distinction.
13:06
Speaker 1: It's a really important one because most of our children,
13:09
Speaker 1: almost many of our children, when they're in school getting
13:14
Speaker 1: tests and stuff, they think they're being tested because when
13:17
Speaker 1: you see the world through a fixed mindset lens, you
13:21
Speaker 1: think that learning is about discovering your abilities. You think
13:25
Speaker 1: schools one long test to figure out what you're good
13:29
Speaker 1: at and what you're not good at. And that's why
13:32
Speaker 1: when you discover things you're not good at, like me
13:34
Speaker 1: and my music, you go, no point in me trying
13:37
Speaker 1: that any further because trying just proves that you're not
13:40
Speaker 1: good at it. Go and try and find something else.
13:43
Speaker 1: So one of those messages you ask me, how do
13:45
Speaker 1: we change those mindsets? There's a whole lot of things
13:48
Speaker 1: we can do, and I use an idea called a nudge,
13:51
Speaker 1: and a nudge you might be familiar with. It comes
13:53
Speaker 1: out of behavioral psychology. It's just a little reminder to
13:57
Speaker 1: help us create a growth message where there's a chance
14:00
Speaker 1: we might create a fixed message, and so one of
14:03
Speaker 1: them is assessment is about where you are, not who
14:06
Speaker 1: you are. So when your child comes home with an
14:08
Speaker 1: English essay that's not so good, you say, well, this
14:11
Speaker 1: is where you're up to at the moment. It doesn't
14:13
Speaker 1: tell you you're not very good at English. Some of
14:16
Speaker 1: the other ones you mentioned before about being your best
14:18
Speaker 1: and reaching your potential and all those sort of things
14:23
Speaker 1: really interesting. When you say to a child with a
14:25
Speaker 1: low growth mindset, I want you to show you my best,
14:28
Speaker 1: show me your best work, they think that's it. Like
14:32
Speaker 1: once you've shown your best, there's nowhere to go. And
14:35
Speaker 1: so the reminder I'm asking parents to carry with them
14:40
Speaker 1: is that whenever you talk about standards or bests or
14:43
Speaker 1: these sorts of things, is that you attach a timestamp.
14:47
Speaker 1: They say this is your best so far, this is
14:50
Speaker 1: your standard at the moment. That we constantly reinforce that
14:54
Speaker 1: the standard you're at at the moment is a reflection
14:56
Speaker 1: of where you are, not who you are. And here's
14:59
Speaker 1: a couple of other quick ideas you can go through
15:01
Speaker 1: as well. People with a fixed mindset think they're a type.
15:06
Speaker 1: And so one of the reminders we can give parents
15:08
Speaker 1: is to say, when we group children when we describe
15:12
Speaker 1: what they do, describe them by verbs, not by adjectives.
15:17
Speaker 1: That we're not math students and leadership students and these
15:20
Speaker 1: sorts of people, but rather we're students learning maths. We're
15:23
Speaker 1: children that are learning how to be leaders. And when
15:27
Speaker 1: Carol Dwek talks a lot about you know, don't praise
15:29
Speaker 1: your kids for being smart. Once you're smart, there's nowhere
15:33
Speaker 1: to go, but rather make smart something you do. What
15:37
Speaker 1: you just did was really clever, rather than justin you're
15:41
Speaker 1: very clever. What you did was very clever. And the
15:44
Speaker 1: more we make it about the action, the more we
15:47
Speaker 1: make it about something you're in control of, and therefore
15:50
Speaker 1: you can get better at and can change. And so
15:53
Speaker 1: what we're hoping happens is that we want students to
15:58
Speaker 1: understand themselves as learn And that's something I think we
16:01
Speaker 1: can talk about at another point.
16:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've loved to there's so much for us to
16:05
Speaker 3: explore here in our times getting away from us already.
16:09
Speaker 3: Just a quick point on that last one, that whole
16:11
Speaker 3: idea that we can say to our children, what you did,
16:16
Speaker 3: We can talk about how they've done rather than who
16:18
Speaker 3: they are. I've found it effective, and I certainly encourage
16:21
Speaker 3: a lot of parents to do this. Rather than even
16:24
Speaker 3: going that far, I'll say to my kids when they
16:26
Speaker 3: walk in and they're waving an essay where they've got
16:28
Speaker 3: an A or an A plus or whatever, I'll say, wow,
16:31
Speaker 3: you seem really excited. Tell me about it. How did
16:33
Speaker 3: you get there? What happened there? So I get them
16:35
Speaker 3: to explain what they've done, the process, the experience, and
16:39
Speaker 3: how they feel. Then my evaluation becomes completely redundant. It's unnecessary,
16:44
Speaker 3: of course, what I say. Once they've done all that
16:46
Speaker 3: self praise. Anyway, I can say whatever I want because
16:48
Speaker 3: they already believe it about themselves. But just removing that
16:52
Speaker 3: a valuative component seems to light them up. They win
16:55
Speaker 3: the cross country, Wow, how hard did you have to run?
16:58
Speaker 3: How'd that feel? And it just changes the tone of
17:02
Speaker 3: the conversation. Can we continue this conversation a little bit
17:06
Speaker 3: down the track. I'm sure that you communicate so so well, James,
17:10
Speaker 3: and there's so much more that people would love to
17:12
Speaker 3: hear from you. Would you be willing to come back
17:14
Speaker 3: to The Happy Family's podcast again?
17:16
Speaker 1: Absolutely delighted justin Well.
17:17
Speaker 2: That'd be a thrill.
17:18
Speaker 4: We'll book something in and have a chat again in
17:20
Speaker 4: a few weeks.
17:21
Speaker 3: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rulant from
17:23
Speaker 3: Bridge Media.
17:24
Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
17:26
Speaker 3: Tomorrow on the podcast, we're diving into the doctor's desk
17:28
Speaker 3: and having some recent research that associates childcare with specific behaviors.
17:34
Speaker 2: In some kids.
17:35
Speaker 3: I'm excited to talk to you about that research and
17:39
Speaker 3: more to come.
17:39
Speaker 2: If you'd like more info
17:41
Speaker 3: About making your family happier, you can visit us at
17:43
Speaker 3: Happy families dot com dot au.