Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / How SheUnfolds Creates the Space Where Women in Tech Belong with Emily van Putten | Ep. 111

Transcript

How SheUnfolds Creates the Space Where Women in Tech Belong with Emily van Putten | Ep. 111 · Women Disrupting Tech

0:00
We just need to stop treating inclusive leadership as a soft
0:04
skill. It should be a requirement.
0:06
Don't reward. Leaders will get results if they
0:10
do it at at the cost of psychological safety, equal pay,
0:14
or their first team. I personally think inclusion
0:18
needs to be part of performance reviews.
0:20
Why should we be looking who gets promoted, who's staying,
0:23
who's burning out? And we need to have the guts to
0:27
say, if you're not helping others grow, you don't grow here
0:31
either. Welcome to Women Disrupting
0:44
Tech. My name is Tierra Keanukas and
0:46
on this podcast I give the women who work in tech the platform
0:50
they need to inspire and empower each other.
0:54
Join me on a journey into the world of entrepreneurship,
0:57
funding biases, and role models to discover the strategies for
1:01
success in the tech industry. In other words, how women can
1:06
disrupt tech. Are you ready to listen?
1:16
Hey, thanks for tuning into episode 111 of Women Disrupting
1:21
Tech. Today's guest knows what it
1:23
means to be seen, but not always believed.
1:27
She knows what it costs to constantly filter her words,
1:31
scan the room, and play it safe. And she knows what happens when
1:37
we treat inclusion like a side project instead of a leadership
1:41
skill. Emily von Putten is a
1:44
cybersecurity expert with almost 2 decades of experience in tech.
1:49
She's also the Co founder of She Unfolds Foundation that creates
1:53
space for women in tech to connect, recharge, and feel like
1:56
they truly belong. And Emily is a transgender
2:00
woman, which means that she has experienced the tech world from
2:05
both sides of the gender divide. She's here to talk about what
2:09
that told her about bias, visibility, and the power of
2:12
showing up as her full self. In this episode, we also talk
2:16
about the real reason that women leave tech, why inclusion has to
2:21
be tied to power and pay, and how social media creates what
2:25
Emily calls the digital closet. This is one of the most open and
2:30
personal conversations that I've had on women disrupting tech,
2:34
and it's a reminder that belonging isn't just a buzzword,
2:38
it's the thing that makes growth possible.
2:41
So when you're ready to listen and learn, how she unfolds
2:45
creates the space where women in tech belong.
2:49
Please welcome to women disrupting tech, Emily
2:52
Fumputten. Hey Emily from Putin, good
2:55
morning. Good to have you on women
2:57
disrupting tech. Question I always ask at the
3:00
start is how you got into your current position and for you
3:03
that's founder of Co founder of Shear and faults.
3:08
Yeah, it's a it's a long story, I feel I've been in tech for
3:11
almost 2 decades right now. Yeah, when specifically talking
3:16
about shear and faults, it's a new foundation in which we try
3:19
to basically connect women working in our indie industry,
3:24
ID IT industry that are in some ways the only women in their
3:31
teams or organisations. And a couple of months ago we
3:35
had this women in NIT HALA organised.
3:39
And after this HALA, we just noticed this shouldn't be a one
3:44
thing a year event. So together with my partner
3:49
Megan, we found that she enforced and we know, yeah,
3:54
basically working to to build this out besides the my current
4:01
role as a cybersecurity expert in the industry.
4:04
OK, that's cool. So how how did you because you
4:09
started with the Dutch women in IT gala before that.
4:13
I think that's also related to Femco Cornelison.
4:17
Previous Guest So how did you become an advocate for women in
4:25
tech? That's an interesting story
4:27
because I've been, as I said, long in this industry during my
4:33
transition, my gender transition, I notice that there
4:39
is so that the culture within the, the sector is real
4:42
masculine and it's not inclusive for most women.
4:50
And if you look at the numbers, they're yeah, troubling because
4:54
you see that 52% of women are leaving the IT industry in the
4:59
1st 10 years of their career compared to 70% of men.
5:03
So I really want to help women working in the industry to, to
5:10
stay there, to help them within their journeys from an expertise
5:15
perspective, but also by connecting them to other women.
5:19
And I noticed myself that people are looking differently at you
5:24
because of your gender. And that is what hurts me hard
5:31
because I think we need to create an A culture, the ad in
5:35
which everyone, the ad, regardless of the boxes you're
5:39
checking is in, included. Yeah, so talk to me about why,
5:47
why women leave, because 52% leaving in the 1st 10 years is
5:52
like really staggering. Why is that happening?
5:56
There's a masculine culture. What happens as a result?
6:00
Yeah, what happens is result, but we have a lot of focus
6:03
details on getting more women within IT.
6:07
But from my perspective, not that much on retaining them or
6:12
not as much as needed. I think the the culture us out
6:18
there are working a lot of men in the industry.
6:21
It's about 80% there isn't. Yeah.
6:27
The the, the, the, the, the, the, the personal view of the OR
6:32
how people work together is really.
6:35
And also it's in the IT industry.
6:37
It's about making results. It's about, yeah, you need to be
6:43
decisive and it's not in most cases not appreciated if you're
6:50
don't know right right away. And women have a different kind
6:55
of way of working together and it it just doesn't fit in many
7:00
cases within the IT industry as it is currently.
7:04
And, and if you are the only woman within a team or perhaps
7:11
the the whole organization and you don't have any role models
7:15
in the organization that show you that you belong there and
7:19
that you can be successful in this role.
7:21
So yeah, there's a lot of work to do to get more women, retain
7:27
them and also allow them to grow in their in their roles.
7:31
Because it's not only about junior media ish roles, but in
7:36
the end also about leadership as a women within this within a
7:41
technical role can see that you are also capable of ultimately
7:46
growing into such a leadership role for example.
7:50
Yeah, really reaching, reaching the top level of an
7:53
organization. Yeah.
7:54
It's really, really important. Yeah.
7:56
So, So what goes wrong in terms of retention then?
7:59
Because we, we do a lot in terms of getting women into IT.
8:02
What, what goes wrong in the retention part of it?
8:06
There's role models, as you said.
8:09
Yeah, there, there there is role models.
8:12
There is not much attention of the, the, the, the individual
8:16
needs of, of women in general, a form and health perspective
8:20
perhaps, or also about creating moments like you have in in most
8:28
orientations, you have the ordinary from evil.
8:32
The, the, the, the drink Friday and the Friday drinks.
8:36
Yeah. And in some cases you'll also
8:39
need to have a conversation with the people.
8:42
So not thinking for them, but getting in touch with the people
8:49
having trouble staying in the organization and and listening
8:53
to their needs. What do they need?
8:55
And it's also about IT, most of the people work there full time.
9:01
So 40 hours a week. Well, if you look at the the
9:03
statistics in the Netherlands, you see that women, most of them
9:10
are not working for a full time. So when you leave out this
9:15
group, they're not fitting to the role descriptions you have
9:19
because you need people or 40 hours a week.
9:22
Those people, this talent pool is already left out.
9:26
While there is they're capable of so much.
9:29
And I have real often conversations about is it's
9:35
really necessary to have all those rules 40 hours a week or
9:39
can they be fulfilled with less hours.
9:43
And I think that is really a mirror that organizations need
9:48
to look into in order to leverage this enormous group of
9:55
people that have great expertise but are left out just because
10:00
they're not working 40 hours a week.
10:03
Yeah, and and to your point of being left out often day, day
10:07
after Friday off, Yeah. So then no Friday drinks.
10:12
No Friday drinks and you and. Also they there's a Friday
10:15
drinks. I had an interview with a guest,
10:19
I think early, early May and she said well, why it's it's nice of
10:26
the employers to pick up the the the drinks tap, but why don't
10:30
they pick up the the childcare tap then?
10:34
Yeah. That's also part of the
10:37
facilitation thing because to your, to your point, I think
10:43
it's also important in terms of hearing and making people
10:46
belong. Is that you they you actually
10:49
help them attend company events? Yeah, and if you are missing
10:54
those, those moments for gathering within your
10:57
organization, yeah, you can feel alone.
10:59
And why, why staying there if you don't feel connected to your
11:02
Co workers? And there are so many examples
11:07
of unpaid labour. Well, in unfortunately in, in,
11:13
in the current societal situation, women are mostly
11:18
taken care of. Yeah.
11:22
Perhaps we as as an organization, as an employer can
11:26
have a look at all those tasks that women are taking on and see
11:32
how we can help them to make it more attractive to start
11:37
working, especially in IT. And if you look at other
11:40
industries like healthcare, there are great examples of how
11:45
you can do this. And also if you look at how
11:48
Scandinavian countries are are doing this as more as an equal
11:52
situation between what men, women, instead of, yeah, this
11:57
enormous gap we have in. OK.
12:01
So there's parties, role models part what I'm hearing you say,
12:06
it's also really having the conversation with women about
12:10
what they need. Last question on this topic, why
12:15
is that difficult for the current leadership to or for
12:19
men? Let me put it that way because I
12:21
think there's a sort of barrier there.
12:26
But what makes that a thing even?
12:30
Yeah, I think especially when you look at platforms like
12:34
LinkedIn and if you see the the the conversations around these
12:38
kinds of topics, you see that men are not real present there.
12:45
And I had conversations a while back with several people and
12:50
management guys and men in these cases and they see these these
12:59
challenges as complaining and they are not experiencing
13:04
problems and challenges themselves.
13:08
So there is no problem in their opinion.
13:13
Well, there is, but. What is that then?
13:15
Is that a lack of empathy or? I think yeah, traditional
13:20
leadership, when you look at most organizations, it's just
13:26
directive like we have always done.
13:28
Well, when you look at inclusive leadership, you'll, there's a
13:32
humble role. You need to have this
13:34
conversation with the people to understand and to listen to them
13:36
without bias. And I think that there is an
13:42
enormous potential of growth for these kind of leaderships and
13:47
luckily the younger generation is aware of that and is more
13:52
focused on that way of leadership, but.
13:56
Yeah, I was about to ask, is that a sort of problem that is
13:59
sort of going away over time because younger generation is
14:03
indeed more aware that we need to change this narrative?
14:08
Yeah, I yes, it will eventually when people will retire.
14:13
But these days when people for leadership and management roles
14:18
are hybrids, we always are looking for the best candidate.
14:23
But the best candidate, in my opinion, is the the person that
14:27
in most cases is identical to your personality instead of on
14:34
paper is real, contributing with diverse perspectives and
14:38
etcetera. Yeah, yeah, like attracts like.
14:41
Absolutely. Hey, I want to switch a bit to
14:47
back to to belonging and also to leadership because we talked
14:55
about belonging for a minute when we talked about events and
15:00
really being part of the, let's say of the of the team.
15:08
What makes this topic important to you personally?
15:12
For me, balloon is when I can just be without overthinking.
15:18
I feel a little more of not having to scan the room or just
15:21
my tongue to make sure I don't come across as too much.
15:26
Most of my life was about fitting in, adapting, playing it
15:31
safe and belonging kinds of flips that It tells you you
15:36
don't have to shapeshift to be accepted or allowed to take up
15:39
space. And honestly, that's not just a
15:43
nice feeling, it's the thing that makes it possible for me,
15:48
but also others to grow because you can thrive when you're
15:51
constantly trying to survive. Yeah.
15:54
So this maybe let's double click a bit on on playing a role then
16:00
what can you describe what it meant for you to be in a
16:07
position to? Yeah, to have to have to scan a
16:11
room to see if there were any allies with you, to see if there
16:17
were any people who could be post potentially hostile.
16:22
What is that like? And it really started change
16:27
happening when people within my organization, I was working back
16:33
then were aware of my situation and as transgender women.
16:40
And this is hard because it's real for me.
16:45
It's a real obstacle. You're far away from your your
16:49
individuals. You're hyper visible and on the
16:52
other hand everyone is noticing, everyone is judging.
16:57
You can see it in their eyes without them telling you they
17:00
are. And that is hard because you
17:04
want to fit in. You want to not be the they're
17:10
on your own. But on the other hand, you, you
17:16
want to go through with your personal journey.
17:21
And it's really important for me, if you look at my mental
17:24
history of a couple of years ago.
17:26
And that is troubling sometimes because I, I made the choice to
17:36
inform people as much as I can just I, I can start a new job, I
17:44
can move for a living to another location, but in the end, I want
17:51
to be in this world, real world and not gathering with other
17:58
trans people. And I think in the end that
18:03
helps because you're by being more vulnerable, open on these
18:09
topics that most people are not familiar and talking about.
18:16
I think this opens another layer of connection with the people
18:19
around you. Yes, probably you will lose
18:25
people on your journey when you choose yourself and it's not
18:30
the, the, the role people expect, expecting from you.
18:34
You will lose people that don't feel connected to you anymore.
18:38
And I think in the end that's hard, but it's also fine because
18:44
the people that stay or are connecting with you actively are
18:48
the people that see you instead of the role you're playing.
18:52
Yeah. So what does that do do to your
18:56
energy levels if you have to enter a room and scan?
19:01
It's, it's real intense because on one hand you have your
19:08
personal journey that is already so overwhelming with all the,
19:14
the mental support and medical staff, all the, the, the
19:20
appointments with, with therapists and it's, it's real.
19:24
It's almost ridiculous. And that is not just all because
19:32
on you have also your your career people that I just was
19:36
talking about people judging you and it has some mental impact on
19:40
you. And then you're also talking
19:44
about all the the impacts that the medical starting with
19:48
hormones has real impact on your body in in it's it's real for
19:52
realming and balancing all these challenges together.
19:57
It's it's it's. It's already hard, but then if
20:01
people start judging you I can imagine it becomes even like a
20:06
double whammy. Yeah, and I try to explain to
20:09
some people that, yeah, I, I'm in my car driving to a certain
20:13
falling on the road, a journey. I'm, I'm, I'm on and on the back
20:18
seat there are so many people, people close to you, people a
20:21
bit farther away. And I need to really take care
20:25
of it, travelling, braking, steering, because if I do it, I
20:30
steer to to heart or I am throttling massively, then
20:39
people on the back sheet, I will lose them.
20:43
And while, and it's also challenging because not all
20:46
people are pointing the right head in the same direction.
20:51
Once the one wants you to to move left and the other one to
20:54
the right. And how are you going to
20:57
navigate all these opinions and all these expectations while
21:02
still being true to the journey you're on for yourself?
21:08
Yeah, How do you do that? How do you, how do you keep
21:12
focus on on yourself? Because I can, I, I won't say I
21:15
can imagine because I can't. I'll be honest, all the all
21:23
those voices, all those influences from the back seat of
21:28
the car and you have to keep your own car on the A on the
21:33
road and B on course to where you want to go.
21:37
How do how do you do you have any things you do?
21:41
You talked about therapy. But it's real complex.
21:48
When I started, I wanted to just full throttle and go to the to
21:56
the point where I wanted to be. But then I start noticing that
22:01
the people around me that are really close to me and it's just
22:04
too fast because it has an enormous impact on them.
22:10
They are losing someone in in a certain way.
22:12
I'm warning that the person that is transitioning more or less.
22:18
And so we had so much conversations privately about
22:26
things I wanted to do but the the people around me were not
22:32
ready for. How did she discover, besides
22:36
having those conversations, What, what did they say?
22:39
Yeah, sometimes it's it's the hard, the hard way that people
22:42
are are. Yeah, basically having this
22:49
conversation and seeing a real hard conversation, crying and
22:57
that sometimes you take I, I, I take a certain decision and then
23:03
I see and notice that it's too fast for the people real close
23:10
around me. So it's, as I said, it's that
23:15
sometimes the hard way and that opens my eyes hopefully.
23:23
And I think in the end it's resulted in that I am it's it's
23:30
the conversation allows you to allows me to travel while also
23:34
taking care of breaking. So if I am on full trouble and
23:38
the the people around me are on are breaking and break, yeah,
23:44
that is real hard. And you will lose those people.
23:49
And you need to adapt your personal life as well.
23:52
Because in some situations I cannot be that person and
23:58
provide the the things I used to provide.
24:03
Yeah. And you, yeah, need to take
24:06
certain decisions. How are you kind of balancing
24:09
and integrating new visions within your personal life, but
24:14
also your your corporate professional life?
24:17
Yeah. So I was wondering, yeah,
24:19
because you're transitioning from a man to a woman, have you
24:26
observed people behaving differently from from you seeing
24:33
you as a man versus seeing you as a woman?
24:36
Because. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
24:41
And before I transition, people rarely questions my expertise
24:48
that just I I assumed I knew what I was talking about.
24:52
But during my transition, I'm still in in it.
24:57
Certainly the exact same knowledge was met with doubts.
25:01
People started interrupting me, explaining things back to me,
25:05
things I built myself. In some cases, it's really yeah,
25:09
it's it's it's to laugh about. But yeah, at first I was, yeah.
25:15
And at first I was trying to adjust.
25:17
I tried something less emotional, more neutral, more
25:19
acceptable, I guess. But it made me feel smaller.
25:23
And honestly, it felt fake. And these days I refuse to lead.
25:28
I have from a filtered version of myself.
25:30
So now I speak up, not just for me, but to point out how much
25:35
gender still impacts who we trust and which voice we take
25:39
seriously. And it's not only about me, it's
25:42
about all voices in society. Because if we want real change,
25:48
we need to stop pretending this stuff isn't happening.
25:50
True. And and to your point, the
25:53
reason I was asking is I'm reading a book called The
25:57
Authority Gap which describes exactly this behaviour.
26:03
Also there I'm reading it. I'm actually now in a chapter
26:06
where the writer has interviewed a number of trans people, 1
26:14
going from men to transitioning from men to women and another
26:18
one back from women to men. And they describe exactly that
26:25
same thing that you just described.
26:28
Like for men you hardly ever get judged or challenged, and for
26:35
women all of a sudden you get interrupted and you get
26:37
questions and you get less. Yeah, But the interesting thing
26:41
about that topic is that men and women are having certain
26:48
challenges in society. For men, trying is not allowed
26:56
You you have to basically get rid of your emotions in a
27:00
certain way. And when I'm talking about these
27:04
topics that things are changing because of how people are
27:08
perceiving me, it's gets reactions and people are, oh,
27:14
this is really happening. But don't forget that CIS men
27:20
and CIS women are having the same issues during their whole
27:25
lives. It's nothing new.
27:27
But because I am talking about my last experience, it's it's
27:33
more credible in some way. And perhaps we should start
27:36
listening to the to the people, not just trans people, but
27:42
everyone, about the challenges they're experiencing and do
27:47
something with that instead of waiting to someone with more
27:52
dysphorous perspectives. Shows the the exact same thing.
27:56
Yeah, yeah, I think listening to each other is really important
28:01
to to get more empathy and understanding.
28:04
And also as a result, I think the culture within tech will
28:10
become more hospitable for outsiders for let's say the the
28:16
non Caucasian CIS guys with a university degree.
28:21
So yeah. Yeah.
28:23
And you're not just checking this one box.
28:25
We are all made of different aspects at the boxes.
28:30
We are always talking about that the combination of them.
28:35
Everyone has a unique combination which has its its
28:40
challenges and. Yeah.
28:43
And that that's, that's one of the things I think that is often
28:46
forgotten or overlooked, that everyone is unique.
28:49
Everyone has his own sort of operating manual.
28:54
And for some that is, for some people that's a bit longer, and
28:58
for some that needs to be rewritten.
29:01
And for some it's pretty straightforward.
29:05
And even if you can put two people in the exact same 20
29:09
boxes, for example, they still have their personal preferences.
29:14
So and then it's about, as we talked about listening, trying
29:19
to understand each other's needs.
29:21
OK. I want to switch back a bit to
29:28
to belonging and also to your own journey as a transgender
29:32
woman in tech because you're also going to talk about at
29:38
least about playing roles in October at TEDx.
29:45
Tell me a bit more. Tell us a bit more about that.
29:48
Yeah, that's very interesting because I've been, I've been
29:51
talking about a TEDx and I'm trying to create a relation
29:57
between my personal journey as playing roles that I've
30:03
experienced myself as we just talked about.
30:06
And on the other hand, we see that these days we have all
30:11
those apps like Instagram, Tech Talk, LinkedIn, yeah, call them
30:18
that are all basically you're rewarded based on algorithms.
30:24
So if you publish something and you'll get those likes, it's
30:28
been fueled. It's it's really resulting that
30:33
people will do add the DD things to get to these results again
30:38
and try to adapt their voice online to get more, more
30:47
rewarded because of those likes and feels, etcetera.
30:50
And ultimately that results in that you may be having an online
30:55
persona, which in fact is completely different than the
31:00
people behind the computer that is creating this content.
31:04
And and then it might be real hard for you to step up in real
31:10
life among people that see your content, while this online
31:15
identity of yours is not the people they're seeing in real
31:19
life. So, and when you look at the
31:22
numbers of, of younger people with, with, with anxiety, and
31:30
that's real troubling. And I wanted to make clear that
31:34
when I was in the closet for a longer period and this exact
31:39
same thing called the digital closet is happening online for
31:44
many people without noticing. And I think we should be more
31:50
aware on the image we're creating online of ourselves to
31:57
prevent, Yeah, stepping into this pitfall.
32:00
And it's interesting to say that when people create a selfie,
32:05
yes, for sure for a quick publishing, but they're not
32:09
they're not making just one selfie.
32:11
They're making 10 or way more and how authentic is this and
32:16
which filter to use etcetera. In this case, that's not
32:21
authentic anymore because you're still subject of all the in the
32:27
end algorithms and people online judging you in a certain way.
32:32
Yeah. How do we change that?
32:35
How do we change? I mean the algorithms are there,
32:38
the rewards are there and real and are felt because I also look
32:44
at OK, I'm starting to get off AI as as a help to to write my
32:52
copy. Yeah, I think I, I, I try to
32:55
explain to people that at first I think it's, it's the things
32:59
you can do for yourself. It's auditing your online
33:01
identity. Are you shaping your online
33:04
presence with intention or is it shaping you?
33:08
You can just open your last 5 lbs and what's off your shelf
33:12
are missing. And yeah, is this truly my first
33:17
or am I just playing a role? And on the other hand, try to
33:21
ignore algorithm. Algorithms strive on
33:25
predictability. They favor what comfortably fits
33:28
their malt. High performance doesn't
33:32
necessarily mean authenticity. So reflect.
33:34
Are your choices online driven by what you want to express or
33:38
by what the algorithm reverse? And the last one is just make
33:43
intentional choices. Stay aware of a thin line
33:47
between your curated persona basically, and your authentic
33:50
self. Make choices about what you can
33:53
share because it reflects you, not because it seeks validation.
33:59
Yeah, I think that's hard to do. That, yeah.
34:02
But also, I think be mindful of what you share in terms of, OK,
34:06
how does this add to my online persona and how does it move
34:14
away or actually keep me close to who I am?
34:19
Yeah. And just you just get ask
34:22
yourself this question, what is the smart change you can make
34:24
today to align your digital self closer to your real self?
34:28
Use technology intentionally to empower authenticity and not be
34:32
started. I want to double click on one
34:35
thing you just said because I found that really interesting.
34:39
High performance is not necessarily authentic, often the
34:43
same as authenticity. Right.
34:47
Isn't that the whole problem here?
34:50
That we don't associate high performance with being
34:53
authentic. Yeah, it is.
34:56
And in some cases authenticity can be high performance, but
35:03
it's real hard. And not that long ago, I shared
35:08
a real a post about my mental health site a couple of years
35:14
ago. And these are the topics we
35:17
normally not talk about online. It's not there.
35:21
And and yes, these, these, these topics are rewarded because
35:26
they're more authentic. And you can never say they're
35:29
100% authentic, but because it isn't in the end, it's always
35:34
published in a certain way to get read and notice.
35:39
But these days we're just publishing.
35:44
The most we're publishing is what we want the world to know
35:47
and see of you instead the instead of also showing that we
35:54
are not only having great days making research and the great
36:01
event after the other one, we are also having the hard days
36:05
the the days that we don't know. And if I can honestly say that I
36:12
don't know or that I am, I'm having mental health issues that
36:18
allow someone else that is suffering from the same
36:24
challenges on their own. And in most cases, they're just
36:30
having this on their own have perhaps are more capable of
36:37
sharing their chances as well. Last week was real.
36:43
I was at a conversation at an at Codem in Amsterdam in school for
36:48
an Ask Me Anything session. And it's real great.
36:50
And that was aimed at technology on one hand and gender on the
36:54
other hand. But in the end we, we delve into
36:56
mental health and I shared about my depression and about suicidal
37:03
periods. And at the end, there was this
37:05
one woman, she was in the corner of the room and I saw on her
37:11
face that's there was something going on.
37:15
She was real emotional, but she was on their own.
37:19
No one was going to her. So I walked to her and just
37:23
asked her, do you want to have a hug?
37:26
And this person felt into my arms, embraced me and like she
37:31
would never let me go. I was crying.
37:34
We stood there for a couple of minutes and then I real that's
37:38
real impact on me personally, because I noticed that this
37:41
person was going through this topic on their own and doesn't
37:47
feel the space to talk about it. Well, in the end, if if people
37:54
are in a situation they need to deal with this on their own, I
37:59
think it's less likely they're going to survive instead of when
38:03
the people around them to support them.
38:06
So I think it's it's we need to normalize healthy part of our
38:13
lives instead of just being this create online persona.
38:17
Yeah, and also again, listen. Listen once in every hour to
38:23
ask. Give, give.
38:25
Ask someone if she or he needs a hug.
38:29
Yeah, sometimes that's, that's OK.
38:31
And you don't have to say any words but disconnection between
38:36
people and I, I, I didn't know this lady before diving into the
38:41
session. And that also helps that someone
38:43
feels seen. So why is it important to you to
38:47
take this role to to be a role model?
38:53
Yeah, I think. Because you're, you're standing
38:56
in front of rooms. You're you're out in the open
39:01
about your, your transition, your Yeah.
39:05
I'm talking about several subjects also about women in AT
39:09
and my mental state and my transition and etcetera.
39:14
There are not that many people that dare to share these topics
39:20
as I do. And sometimes it's it's real
39:23
hard. It is.
39:26
And I'm not per SE doing this for my personal situation
39:30
because I'm already gone through many of the things I challenged
39:35
earlier. And I hope that in some way,
39:40
because of my loud and I think revelation voice, some people
39:48
see this and think, OK, I'm part of the things you're just
39:53
talking about. And perhaps I can contribute in
39:58
a way that I'm feeling comfortable with that has way
40:02
more impact on the people that are having these chances that it
40:05
has on me while while helping them.
40:10
And it's about feasibility in the end.
40:13
And I'm also in a certain way, it's also, it's hard to say
40:16
about yourself, but a role model for people that are not capable
40:22
or they're as as tough as. Me while still going through
40:31
these the same topics I did. Yeah.
40:34
Does it help you also in going through your own process?
40:39
Yeah, Yeah. Good question.
40:42
I think it's it, it, it does because there are so many topics
40:48
that people are absolutely not aware of that are really having
40:52
impact on me and many cases directly on the things I'm
40:58
involved with. So it helps me if people
41:02
understand better. That's where certain things
41:08
coming from why I'm it's not that's an issue right now
41:12
anymore, but why I was every week having appointments.
41:18
For example, if you are on working in an organization and
41:22
your Co worker is not there every week at a certain moment
41:29
you can have that. This can feed conversations.
41:33
Well those appointments may be legitimate.
41:38
It helps if people understand how things are so that you have
41:44
a real conversation instead of she was not in the office again
41:49
and it's not helping for the culture.
41:52
Is it also about, maybe I'm phrasing this wrong way, but is
41:58
it also about controlling your own narrative?
42:02
Than it is it is in a certain in a certain way because if people
42:07
understand better I probably have more space to navigate my
42:16
personal journey yeah it's a certain way it's it's it's
42:22
control of the narrative we just we in the beginning of this
42:26
conversation we talked about the the the industry as a whole and
42:31
the culture in there and I think it's not helping for many people
42:39
that are not checking this these boxes of of man Caucasian
42:45
etcetera yeah. If I hope to just contribute to
42:52
a change that hopefully is way bigger than I can imagine right
42:56
now. Yeah.
42:58
So how does, how does sheer unfold fit into this?
43:02
Because we talked about it earlier and if I understand
43:07
correctly, it's about creating events that are not necessarily
43:16
work work. So not cyber events for women,
43:19
not cyber or, or IT events for women, but really something
43:24
totally different like like the gala you organized.
43:28
Yeah, that's an interesting because a lot of what I do
43:31
actually come from things I wish I had myself to gather with
43:37
Megan. I already referenced I started
43:40
the women in Attihala last March and we organized this in 3 1/2
43:44
months and we were just tired. Tired of feeling lonely, tired
43:48
of being the only woman in the in the room.
43:50
And we didn't want another event with forced conversations,
43:55
rehearsed speeches, name tags, etcetera.
43:58
We just wanted to have this one night where where you could show
44:03
up and feel seen where nobody as you what do you do?
44:08
But instead, hey, how are you really not performing but just
44:12
connecting and that night happened and it was incredible.
44:16
Fallah sold out in no time and energy in the room was
44:19
absolutely amazing and also interesting to see that there
44:24
were women from all stage in their careers and junior
44:27
director and it was just generally connecting and from
44:32
that feeling. Basically she and fossils born
44:35
because we thought that one night isn't enough.
44:40
We need something lasting, which she and folks are creating more
44:45
of these moments. Special memorial getting that
44:47
you'll generally look forward to moments focused entirely on just
44:53
being together or feeling safe. Events that are both you don't
44:59
want to miss because they feel you're up and reminds you why
45:02
community matters. And yes, we have already a
45:07
plenty of technical communities and those are great, but
45:11
sometimes you just want to leave your expertise at the door.
45:15
Step into space where you can slow down, connect, and just be
45:19
yourself, not proofing yourself. Yeah, so actually creating to
45:25
safe space that women need to also be successful in in tech or
45:30
IT. Yeah, absolutely.
45:32
So. So let's double click on safe
45:35
spaces. What do you consider a safe
45:37
space? Like a place where you can be
45:40
yourself? But can you define that a bit
45:43
more? Yeah, it's interesting to say.
45:46
I think it's a space is about a room where you're can show up
45:51
100% as your true self. And this, it's easy to say, but
45:58
it's hard to realize. I think the way to create a safe
46:04
place just to sing out loud what everyone else is thinking with
46:07
no one dares to say. And that I think this applies to
46:11
several top semi full bits. And sometimes that feels a bit
46:16
uncomfortable. But usually if we're feeling
46:18
uncomfortable, we're hitting something in the end, right?
46:22
It's not about being provocative, it's just about
46:26
opening the door to real connections like we did with the
46:30
Hala, that you don't have to adapt and press or not back.
46:35
As I said, you can show up exactly as you are.
46:39
And we're trying to create these safe spaces.
46:44
And unfortunately for the men, it's it's also placed without
46:48
men because honestly, in these cases, there's a different
46:52
dynamic when women are together dynamic where all aspects of
46:58
being a woman can be there freely.
47:02
No filters, no adjusting, just real open and completely
47:06
yourself. Think that's what safe spaces
47:09
are mostly about. OK, so there's one thing that
47:13
makes me really curious because I'm do you do you see that merch
47:19
over time that men can start to enter that space?
47:23
Yeah, I, I, I think it will. Or perhaps we can create certain
47:31
moments where men are allowed. Yeah.
47:36
Yeah, absolutely. It's not because we want to keep
47:42
men deck, keep them out of that, but we want to create this
47:48
atmosphere of women connecting. That isn't possible on the
47:55
working floor. Well, it's we said that it's
47:58
real masculine and many women are struggling how to stay
48:05
authentic to who you are, while the culture is really asking you
48:11
to adapt and and everyone wants to be seen and fit in in the
48:16
end. So yes, perhaps you will at some
48:20
moment, but for now the main aim is to connect the women that are
48:26
working in the industry in a new bolt manner.
48:31
Cool. So let's say I'm forward
48:35
thinking leader and I really want to create that inclusive
48:42
atmosphere also on the work floor, not only by sending women
48:47
to there are separate events where they're separate rooms,
48:51
but really make it inclusive. What is one step I need to take?
48:55
What is the first step I need to take to to get there?
49:00
Yeah. So that's basically making
49:02
inclusion more normal. Yeah, yeah.
49:08
I think if you want inclusion in tactile, we are more focused on
49:13
all the people. We have to stop outsourcing the
49:17
problem in the end to the people who are already
49:21
underrepresented. It's time to shift the weights.
49:27
And for me, I think the bold move in this case is tie
49:31
inclusive outcomes to power and pay.
49:35
We just need to stop treating inclusive leadership as soft
49:39
skill. It should be a requirement.
49:42
Those reward leaders will get results if they do it at at the
49:48
cost of psychological safety, equal pay or diverse team.
49:54
And definitely don't promote who can build inclusive cultures no
49:58
matter how strategic or technical they are.
50:02
I personally think inclusion needs to be part of performance
50:06
reviews. Why should we be looking who
50:08
gets promoted, who's staying, who's burning out?
50:11
And we need to have the guts to say, if you're not helping
50:16
others grow, you don't grow here either.
50:20
No, not. Not with a career and not with
50:22
bonuses. No, If you want to have changed,
50:26
it's changed something. We need to make people
50:28
accountable and unfortunately that's that means that people
50:35
that have a certain way of acting and need to adapt as
50:41
well, not just this, this in the represented groups.
50:46
OK, so I want to move forward to 2032 when this is all completely
50:53
normal. What does she unfolds look like
50:57
then? Ask this great question, this is
51:01
this, this initiatives. In the end, if everything is as
51:09
we hope society and the workplace should look like,
51:14
there is no sharing faults because there is no need anymore
51:17
for a certain initiative. Perhaps we can have great
51:21
moments together, but not with the initial thought of
51:25
connecting people, but just having great events for for men
51:32
and women together, for for doing, for the having fun
51:37
together without the pressure on changing problems we currently
51:43
have. Yeah, that sounds like a great
51:46
place to to close. Emily von Putten, thanks very
51:49
much for the amazing interview. If people want to learn more
51:52
about you and more about Shian faults, where would you like to
51:56
send them? Personally, you can find me on
51:59
LinkedIn. That's where I share a lot about
52:01
all the topics we just talked about.
52:03
And if you're curious about Shian faults.
52:07
Yeah, I, we're, we're just building the community.
52:10
And if you want to be part of it, get in contact with me, send
52:16
me a message. Things have to be built.
52:18
We need to yeah, volunteers to help us build it in the end.
52:22
OK, cool. So that's also your call to
52:25
action then, if you want to help build a community.
52:28
Be part of it. You'll have plenty of space,
52:31
yeah. Reach out to Emily and we'll
52:34
include the link to your LinkedIn profile in the show
52:37
notes. Thank you so much for having me.
52:41
You're welcome and thanks for being an amazing guest and role
52:44
model. And for the listeners, thank you
52:47
very much for listening. And until the next episode, keep
52:51
being awesome. Well, that's a wrap for episode
52:58
111 of Women Disrupting Tech with Emily Von Berton on how she
53:03
unfolds creates the space where women in tech belong.
53:07
Emily and I hope that you found our conversation as inspiring as
53:11
we intended it to be. And if you have any questions
53:14
for Emily or for me, please leave them in the comments on
53:18
Spotify, Apple, or YouTube. If you'd like to learn more
53:22
about Emily as she unfolds, please check out the show notes
53:25
at Women Disrupting Tactile blog.
53:28
The link is also in the description.
53:31
If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a rating
53:34
or a review on Apple or Spotify. Leaving a rating or a review
53:39
helps new listeners find the podcast and supports my guests
53:43
by giving them a bigger platform.
53:46
When you're a regular listener, please follow the show on Apple,
53:50
Spotify, Amazon or YouTube. Following Women Disrupting Tech
53:55
is a simple 0 cost way to support Emily and my older
53:59
guests in making inclusion in tech the new normal by the end
54:02
of 2032. You can also follow Women
54:06
Disrupting Tech on social media, On LinkedIn we're at the True
54:10
Story Company and on Instagram Sub Stack and YouTube we're at
54:15
Women Disrupting Tech. On Sub Stack, you'll find in
54:18
depth stories and behind the scenes insights from each
54:21
episodes, plus all the trends that I've spotted across 100
54:25
plus conversations so far. So don't forget to subscribe to
54:29
my Sub Stack for more women disrupting tech.
54:33
Finally, if you'd like to connect with me directly, please
54:36
reach out via e-mail dearcom at women disrupting tech dot blog
54:40
or connect with me on LinkedIn. On LinkedIn.
54:43
Just search for my name and you'll find me.
54:47
With that, I wish you a wonderful day.
54:49
I hope to see you in the next episode and until then, keep
54:52
being awesome.