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A Listener on What Journalists Should do Better · Question Everything

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hey, y'all.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: I hope you're hanging in there. We'll be back in
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: a few weeks with some of the reporting we've been
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: working on and stories we've been putting together. But in
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: the meantime, I just wanted to remind you that I'm
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: on Substack. I have a newsletter over there where I
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: share what's on my mind, things that I'm reacting to
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: in the world of journalism, information, lawsuits, stuff that's going
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: on on the beat that we cover. And also where
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: I share a lot of reporting that doesn't make it
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: into the show. You know, we have a small but
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: mighty team over here that is interviewing journalists, sources, news consumers, experts, thinkers,
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: and we're learning stuff all the time. There's just a
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: lot to talk about during this massive period of upheaval
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: that our industry and really like the way all of
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: us get information is going through. So I'd love for
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: you to join us. You can sign up at kcrw.com
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: slash questioneverything. And as part of this, we thought it'd
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: be fun to basically choose a couple of our newsletter
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: subscribers at random to join us at the next taping
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: we do with journalists at the wine shop in New York.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Our next one is going to be a bunch of
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: incredible reporters who have all been covering the Jeffrey Epstein
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: story for years. Obviously, a very timely and disturbing story.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: We'd love to invite a couple of you. So go
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: sign up for our newsletter. at kcrw.com slash question everything,
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: and we'll choose a couple people at random. You can
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: sit in the back of the store and sip some
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: wine and eavesdrop on these amazing reporters. The other thing
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: that's been really cool about the Substack, honestly, is just
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: that it really feels like an actual conversation that I
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: and my team get to have with you. You can
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: weigh in in the comments, let us know what you
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: think about what we're reporting. We have a pretty active
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: chat happening. And yeah, I wanted to share with you
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: today something that came out of one of these discussions
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: KCRW has another show, a long running show called Left,
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Right and Center. It's hosted by David Green, where every
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: week they get together commentators from across the political spectrum
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: to discuss what's in the news from their varying perspectives.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: And not long ago, they did an episode about the
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: press and basically its relationship with the White House. They
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: made a newsletter about it. And some listeners weighed in
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: with some pretty real but very thoughtful criticism of the
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: way the issue was discussed in the episode. And I
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: actually jumped in the comments. I asked kind of a
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: straightforward question to some of these listeners, and they responded
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: really thoughtfully with really interesting ideas about just how they
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: at least think we as journalists should think about our
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: work differently, what different language we should use, different approaches
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: to reporting to earn back people's trust. So that was interesting.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: That was over on Substack. Then David Green, the host
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: of Left, Right, and Center, brought that conversation to back
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: onto the radio show and the podcast and discussed it
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: with his commentators. And I just want to share that
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: segment with you here just to bring it full circle.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: You'll hear David talking to his guests, Mike Dubke, a
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Republican political strategist who was a White House communications director
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: during the first Trump administration, the very beginning of it.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: And Moa Lathie, a Democratic political strategist who used to
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: be communications director for the DNC.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: Here it is. All right.
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: We're back again with Left, Right and Center. I'm David Green.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: Mike Dupke is here on the right. Mo Alethi is
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: here on the left. I want to talk to you
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: guys about a listener named Steve who has been engaging
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: with us on the Left, Right and Center sub stack
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: page recently. He was talking about what the media can
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: do to gain back credibility. His advice was, quote, be objective.
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: Stop telling people what to think. The media is not
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: the arbiter of truth. The people are. Present the facts.
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: Let us decide. You'll have to take the chance that
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: we will decide wrong, but at least we would be
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: listening to you. Right now, you've lost even that for
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: most people. Look at your ratings. On an opinion show
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: like Left, Right, and Center, give your opinion, but tell
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: us why you think that way. On this show, David Green,
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: in setting up a question for a guest, referenced the
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: bogus allegation that that Obama committed treason. He dismissed the
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: allegation essentially. While yes, this is just an allegation, it's
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: pretty early in the story to assume that it's settled
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: as bogus. This is very much an open question for
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: many people. That kind of framing of narrative building is
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: what makes people believe a media outlet is biased. The
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: words there from Steve, one of our listeners who was
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: writing on Substack. So Steve was actually having This conversation
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: in the chat with Brian Reed, who's a colleague of
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  Speaker 4: mine here at KCRW, who hosts the podcast, Question Everything.
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: Brian tries to unravel the contested work of journalists. It's
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: a great show. We had him on Left, Right and
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: Center some months ago, and we talked about this very thing,
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: restoring trust in the media. And Brian told us about
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: this married couple, Emily and Dick, who totally disagreed politically.
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: It almost cost them their marriage. But then they found
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: this newsletter called Tangle, that they both could trust. Emily
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: told Brian that Tangle's founder, Isaac Saul, is just always transparent.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: He was very clear about what his biases were.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: That made him extremely trustworthy.
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  Speaker 3: More often than not, when we get to the end
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: and we read my take, we look at each other
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: and say, yeah, that's.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: How I feel.
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  Speaker 4: So just listening to Emily there and remembering the conversation
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: we had with Brian on our show, you know, Steve,
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: I just want to say, I think you absolutely have
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: a point and I appreciate you calling me out. I
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: think I am allowed to not believe that former President
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: Obama did anything treasonous. And it's vital that I and
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: other journalists find the truth in something like that, because
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: there are a lot of dangerous things that could happen.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: But throwing.
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: a word like bogus just out there can make people
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: stop listening to me immediately. And I think the thing
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: I loved about Brian's take on all of this is
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: that maybe there are ways to treat everyone and their
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: beliefs with respect. And then once we're still all in
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: it together, to get to the truth together, which I
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: think is the point that this couple was making. So yeah,
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: I think throwing a word like that around, there's more
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: that I could say without just stating the you know,
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  Speaker 4: a word like that, because it can make someone feel
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: in the moment like something they believe, like they're stupid
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: or just wrong to believe something, even if I, in
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: my heart, as a journalist who wants to find the truth,
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: believes that it is just not true. But Mo, you
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: were around as we talked about this some months ago.
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: I mean, do you think Steve has a point for
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: me here?
• 6:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and you actually even referenced something I said I
• 6:57
  Speaker 5: think it was back during that episode, you referenced it earlier.
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: I think it is important that we not, the language
• 7:04
  Speaker 5: that people use, whether it's journalists or even advocates, right?
• 7:09
  Speaker 5: I'm not a journalist, but calling Donald Trump a fascist,
• 7:14
  Speaker 5: we've shown repeatedly, is not an effective tool. That doesn't
• 7:18
  Speaker 5: mean we shouldn't be talking about the things on my
• 7:20
  Speaker 5: side that we're concerned about. And so I do agree
• 7:25
  Speaker 5: with Steve's point. Like, let's just lay out the facts.
• 7:28
  Speaker 5: Here are the things that he's doing. And let voters
• 7:32
  Speaker 5: decide if they feel settled or unsettled by it. But
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: by just going straight to those types of words, right,
• 7:41
  Speaker 5: we're immediately turning people off. There are a lot of
• 7:44
  Speaker 5: people out there who hear Republicans referencing the left as
• 7:48
  Speaker 5: woke and get turned off by that, get offended by that.
• 7:53
  Speaker 5: because it just sounds like pejorative, an insult, a label.
• 8:00
  Speaker 5: But when they start talking about some of those concerns,
• 8:03
  Speaker 5: some of the places where the left maybe has gone
• 8:06
  Speaker 5: too far, you get a lot more people nodding their heads.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: When we just throw labels around, when we start.
• 8:14
  Speaker 5: Not just giving the facts that we want people to
• 8:19
  Speaker 5: focus on, whether it's a journalist or an advocate or
• 8:21
  Speaker 5: a partisan like Mike or I, We start to lose
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  Speaker 5: them if we just limit it to like, here are
• 8:26
  Speaker 5: the things that's going on out there.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: You decide. I think people come around a little bit more.
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: But, Mike, how do I do what Mo just said,
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  Speaker 4: like just say the things that are going on and
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: let people decide? I mean, when President Trump accuses a
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: former president of treason, that is an incredibly serious accusation.
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  Speaker 4: word and charge? I mean, how do we as journalists
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: handle a moment like that where we need to tell
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: the truth? I mean, treason has very specific things that
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: go along with it in terms of proving it or
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: not proving it. But to Steve's point, without driving people
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: away who, you know, if they hear me just say
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: something like bogus, they're going to be like, I'm not
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: going to listen to this guy anymore.
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: Well, David, not really to come down on you anymore than.
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: Come down as hard as you want.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: This is what we're here for.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: Well, when you set up this conversation, you said, I'm
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: a reporter and what I want to do is find
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: the truth. You self-repeated the charge that Steve just made
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  Speaker 3: about reporters, that you are not an arbiter of the truth.
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: You can set this up by saying treason is a
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: very specific word.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: And the way that you.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: Set your question up to me is probably the way
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: I would answer your question and say, that's how you
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: do it. You don't say bogus. You say President Trump
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: today accused former President Obama of being treasonous. That is
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: a very serious charge, and we need to look into that.
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: Here are the facts of what he was saying. I mean,
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: that's another way to go about it. But I think
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: when we throw around the word truth, especially reporters, and
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: there was another part of this where journalists today are
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: taught that you have to expose the truth. No, no,
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: you have to. You have to expose the arguments that
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: are being made. And I think that's why that couple
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: finally found a place where they both can agree because
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: the biases are exposed. They're out there.
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: But then the truth is ultimately exposed. I mean, for
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: the record, Tangle did what you said and said, this
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: is a serious charge. Let's explore this further. I mean,
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: they were talking about the election, Donald Trump's views on
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: his election loss. But to me, it's like you ultimately,
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: truth still exists. You can ultimately get there. But to me,
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: what the message I'm getting from people like Steve is
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: don't immediately dismiss something as if I know the truth immediately.
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: Make it seem like let's get to a place together.
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: Let's investigate something you believe together.
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: Here's the difference. The truth, when you have both sides
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: of the argument, The truth is going to be decided
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: on by Steve. But when you're the arbiter of truth
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: at the beginning of the sentence, at the beginning of
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: the story, how do you as a listener, how do
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: we believe and understand that you're giving us the truth?
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: Because you're giving us the one side that washed through
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: your reporter's notebook. And that's what you're giving us.
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: So it's let's investigate together and not I'm going to
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: convince you of a truth. Eventually, if you just come along,
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: I mean, what are the.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: Reasons I I really enjoy this podcast is we have
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: this opportunity to do this.
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: And have this conversation. Yes. So that's the answer.
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: But I guess, Mo, here's I hear everything that that
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: Mike is saying. I hear everything that Steve is saying. And,
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: you know, as you both know, it's the reason we're
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: talking about this, because I'm willing to to learn constantly.
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: But I just think about it.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: And that's the truth.
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: I appreciate that in an attention economy. Like, isn't Trump
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: going to win the day because he places the burden
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: of facts on his opponents and he can basically convince
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: people of his truth very quickly with his megaphone in
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: this current political climate?
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is, I think, the challenge, right? It's
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: not just Trump, it's anybody.
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: In today's fast moving social media, algorithmically driven world, incorrect
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: information travels at a much faster speed than corrections. And so, yeah,
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: it is easy for for incorrect information, for actual lies
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: to move fast.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: And we do run the risk.
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: And I don't know whether I'm arguing against myself or
• 12:46
  Speaker 5: not here, but I do think we need to be
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: careful about labels. I do think we need to be
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: careful about how information is presented, but that doesn't mean
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: there's not a room for that information. When an elected leader,
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: Democrat or Republican, says something that is patently false, Voters.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Deserve to know that.
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: Citizens deserve to know that their elected officials are being
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: dishonest with them, that the points that they're making, that
• 13:17
  Speaker 5: the facts that they're presenting are not true. Now, some
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: things are open to interpretation, and a journalist, a good
• 13:24
  Speaker 5: journalist can sit there and say, here's what the president's arguing,
• 13:27
  Speaker 5: here's what his detractors argue in response. But some things
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: are not open to interpretation. Some things are a matter
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: of true and false. And I do think there is
• 13:38
  Speaker 5: a role because if it's not for the journalists, Steve
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: doesn't have a decision to make. Somebody has to give
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: him the information that is necessary. And when there's incorrect information,
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: but maybe just be more responsible for in how you
• 13:57
  Speaker 5: present it.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: And respectful.
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: And I think, I think Steve's point is if you
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: come across, and that's what I've taken. If you come
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: across in a way that is, that basically the message is, hey,
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: this is the way it should be. And if you
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: believe otherwise, you're a doofus.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's just not, that's what I need to be.
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: One of the biggest criticisms that conservatives have of journalists
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: after the last elections was that journalists didn't challenge the
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: Biden administration enough on the president's mental acuity. They said,
• 14:29
  Speaker 5: you guys were complicit in hiding the truth from the
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: American people about President Joe Biden. That's from a conservative perspective,
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: not from a progressive's perspective. And so there is a
• 14:41
  Speaker 5: hunger out there from conservatives, from progressives, from people who
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: don't identify as either to say, get a better sense
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: of what the truth is. I do think journalists can
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: play a more responsible role in helping us figure it out.
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: Gentlemen, I'm going to come back to the word priorities,
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: which I used with Marjorie Taylor Greene and with politicians. Priorities,
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: it's the same thing with journalists. Why is one scandal
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: a distraction and another is a constitutional crisis? Who decides that?
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: That's the other thing that I think people are fed
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: up with traditional media is that you get this, we'll
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: take Biden or we can take Hunter's laptop or any
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: of these stories that at the end of the day,
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: we see the reality. Yes, Biden had lost a step,
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: probably more than a step. Hunter's laptop? Yeah, it was his.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: It wasn't some Russian plant. But those were deemed distractions
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: by traditional media at the time. So don't tell me
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: you're trying to get to the truth when you're calling
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: something a distraction and this other thing a constitutional crisis
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: and overemphasizing on the other side. So it's about priorities.
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: It's about how you talk about all of this. But
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: it's a much bigger thing than just using the word bogus.
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: We're going to we're going to stop there. But I
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: obviously we're into this topic. And Steve, thanks for thanks
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: for bringing it up. And I want to grow and
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: learn and get better every day in this political climate
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: and always. So I really appreciate it.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: That was a segment of KCRW's Left, Right and Center
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: that came out of a conversation that I meddled my
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: way into on Substack. Again, you can sign up for
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Question Everything Substack at kcrw.com slash question everything. And if
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: you sign up, you'll be entered into a randomized selection
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: of listeners to come join us at the wine shop
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: when we record our next episode about reporting on Jeffrey Epstein.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, as always. And we'll be back with
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: new episodes of the show very soon.