Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 399] The History of the Velvet Underground with Richie Unterberger

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[EP 399] The History of the Velvet Underground with Richie Unterberger · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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Speaker 1: They would come back from the studio and say they're
0:02
Speaker 1: not listening to me. They're not listening to the way
0:04
Speaker 1: I want things done. They were not selling a lot
0:06
Speaker 1: of records. He wasn't making significant money out of the group.
0:10
Speaker 1: He got really frustrated and instead of maybe as he
0:12
Speaker 1: would have a year or two earlier, fighting to get
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Speaker 1: his own way, just figuring, I want to walk away
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Speaker 1: from this. I'm getting to burn out by it. We're
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Speaker 1: totally rock and roll. I mean, I'll leave you. You're
0:24
Speaker 1: reading Little Hands says it's time to roll roll out.
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Speaker 2: I totally booked. Welcome back to Booked on Rock conversations
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Speaker 2: with authors, musicians and insiders revealing the stories behind classic
0:41
Speaker 2: rock's greatest songs, albums and artists. Big thank you to
0:44
Speaker 2: Ray Clark, the latest subscriber to Booked on Rocks Backstage Pass.
0:48
Speaker 2: If you're enjoying the show and we'd like to support it,
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Speaker 2: you can join the Booked on Rock Backstage Pass on
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Speaker 2: Patreon for just five dollars a month, every episode commercial free,
0:56
Speaker 2: and before everyone else, you could use the link in
0:58
Speaker 2: the show notes or visit Booked on Rock Now onto
1:02
Speaker 2: Our guest, Richie Unterberger is the author of Do What
1:05
Speaker 2: You Fear Most, The History of the Velvet Underground, Richie
1:09
Speaker 2: had you on a while back for you Bob Marley book.
1:11
Speaker 2: It is great to have you back on again.
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Speaker 1: Thanks Eric, it's good to be back.
1:15
Speaker 2: Let's start with the title do what You Fear Most?
1:18
Speaker 2: A striking phrase. This comes from a Velvet Underground song.
1:22
Speaker 2: What led to choosing that title to best represent the
1:25
Speaker 2: Velvet Underground story?
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Speaker 1: I wanted a lyric from a valid Underground song, and
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Speaker 1: some of the very obvious contenders had already been taken
1:37
Speaker 1: by other books, sometimes books that which were not about
1:40
Speaker 1: the Valid Underground or about music. But I think it
1:43
Speaker 1: is suitable because it wasn't justin lyrics that the Velvet
1:48
Speaker 1: Underground explored territory that a lot of or almost all
1:53
Speaker 1: other popular musicians were afraid to do. They also did
1:58
Speaker 1: so in many different aspects in their the sonics of
2:03
Speaker 1: their music, aside from their lyrics, incorporating influences from the
2:09
Speaker 1: avant garde and from electronics, improvising a lot and changing
2:16
Speaker 1: material from performance to performance, and also their very lineup.
2:23
Speaker 1: There are a couple things I'll say about how unconventional
2:26
Speaker 1: the lineup was. I can't think of another group certainly
2:30
Speaker 1: from that time were the three most visible members, the
2:36
Speaker 1: ones that became most famous were from such different backgrounds.
2:41
Speaker 1: You had Lou Reed, a rock and roll fan from
2:44
Speaker 1: suburban Long Island who was also into literature, John Cale,
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Speaker 1: a classically trained musician on several instruments from Wales, and
2:56
Speaker 1: Nico from Germany, who was mostly known as a model
3:01
Speaker 1: and an actress and had very little professional singing experience.
3:05
Speaker 1: But on their first album, all three of them combined
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Speaker 1: to create music that none of them could have come
3:11
Speaker 1: close to achieving on their own, and also to have
3:14
Speaker 1: a group from that time with two women. I know
3:16
Speaker 1: Nico was only in the group for a year and
3:19
Speaker 1: a half. In their first album, there was no other
3:23
Speaker 1: top artistically group in rock in the nineteen sixties that
3:28
Speaker 1: had a woman drummer, and the drummer Marine Tucker had
3:32
Speaker 1: a very unusual style that nobody else had, and although
3:37
Speaker 1: Nico was in the group for only their first album
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Speaker 1: and only a few songs, she went on to carve
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Speaker 1: a very idiosyncratic and creative solo career, the early part
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Speaker 1: of which I also cover in my book.
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Speaker 2: Lou described Freeport, Long Island as the most boring place
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Speaker 2: on Earth. Rock and roll really fueled his ambition and
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Speaker 2: would be as Tiken out and you write that didn't
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Speaker 2: just entertain Lou, it gave him a completely different vision
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Speaker 2: of life. Was that common among teenagers of his generation
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Speaker 2: or was Lou's obsession unique.
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Speaker 1: I think Lou was more intensely inspired by rock and
4:15
Speaker 1: roll than most teenagers. But I think that rock and
4:18
Speaker 1: roll itself arriving for most teenagers on the scene unexpectedly
4:25
Speaker 1: and really thrillingly, it had that effect whether they went
4:28
Speaker 1: into music or not, to give them feelings, emotions, maybe
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Speaker 1: lead them toward experiences that they didn't even know that
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Speaker 1: they had. But Lou Reed's devotion to rock and roll
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Speaker 1: was perhaps off the charts, even compared to many musicians
4:47
Speaker 1: who went into professional rock music.
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Speaker 2: You devote considerable attention to his electroshock treatments, which had
4:54
Speaker 2: become one of the defining stories of his life. What
4:56
Speaker 2: misconceptions were you hoping to clear up so much?
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Speaker 1: I was hoping to clear up misconceptions, but I gathered
5:02
Speaker 1: different perspectives. The one that is most common that Read
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Speaker 1: himself helped popularize in some of his comments was that
5:14
Speaker 1: he was displaying gay tendencies or bisexual tendencies, which were
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Speaker 1: much less accepted in the nineteen fifties than they are now.
5:27
Speaker 1: They are more accepted to at least some degree now,
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Speaker 1: and his parents were sort of trying to cure him
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Speaker 1: of that because or through electroshock therapy, which wasn't as
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Speaker 1: controversial in the fifties as it would be in subsequent decades.
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Speaker 1: But others who were around Lou at the time felt
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Speaker 1: like the parents weren't so much motivated by his sexual
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Speaker 1: tendencies as his depression, his general depression, which apparently was
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Speaker 1: pretty severe shortly after the time that he was in
6:03
Speaker 1: high school, and with a more limited knowledge of what
6:06
Speaker 1: could be done back in the late fifties, they were
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Speaker 1: desperate to find something that would help Lou read, and
6:14
Speaker 1: that was one of the alternatives that they tried, and
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Speaker 1: perhaps they regretted that. His sister said that although I
6:24
Speaker 1: didn't interview her directly, I did interview a lot of
6:27
Speaker 1: people for the group, but she has said in comments
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Speaker 1: many years later she felt that their parents didn't have
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Speaker 1: anything malicious and their intention that they were just trying
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Speaker 1: somewhat out of desperation to get Lou out of that state.
6:43
Speaker 1: And somebody who played with Lou Reed in his early groups,
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Speaker 1: very early before The Velvet Underground had a similar sentiment.
6:51
Speaker 1: But I think that Lou's unconventional behavior in general, and
6:56
Speaker 1: not just his sexual experimentation, something that his parents and
7:02
Speaker 1: many parents of the time would have found worrisome because
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Speaker 1: it's something they weren't expecting, and he was from a
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Speaker 1: fairly normal, middle class background, fairly standard one, and he
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Speaker 1: was developing into something that had never expected.
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Speaker 2: He and John Cale born just days apart, but like
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Speaker 2: you say, they came from completely different musical worlds. John's
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Speaker 2: work with Lamont Young and the Theater of Eternal Music
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Speaker 2: was hugely influential. Why were those experiences so important to
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Speaker 2: this sound that Cale would later bring to The Velvet Underground.
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Speaker 1: Cale went he moved to the United States specifically because
7:37
Speaker 1: he wanted to get involved in the New York avant
7:39
Speaker 1: garde scene with people like John Cage. But it turned out,
7:43
Speaker 1: although he did meet John Cage, that it was Lamont
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Speaker 1: Young and the musicians playing with Lamont Young who with
7:51
Speaker 1: whom he really felt he found his footing, and they
7:58
Speaker 1: were pioneering what was going to become known as minimalism,
8:02
Speaker 1: especially these drones that might elevate you into a trance
8:06
Speaker 1: like state. But he and one of the other guys
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Speaker 1: who played with Lamont Youngalott Tony Conrad, they didn't shut
8:15
Speaker 1: themselves out to popular music, in part because they heard
8:18
Speaker 1: some similarities with what some acts from rock and roll
8:23
Speaker 1: were doing, not just groups emerging in the British Invasion,
8:27
Speaker 1: but even earlier the Everly Brothers. They felt that the
8:31
Speaker 1: harmonies those guys did almost created these overtones which had
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Speaker 1: some similarity to what they were doing with their drones.
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Speaker 1: And when Cale and Conrad, almost by accident, were asked
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Speaker 1: to see if they could join Lou in a rock
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Speaker 1: and roll group by the record label that Lou was
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Speaker 1: working for, Pickwick Records, and they heard the record that
8:53
Speaker 1: Reid had already recorded under the Primitive's name, The Ostrich
8:59
Speaker 1: John Kele was certainly struck that the unusual guitar sound
9:04
Speaker 1: of that record was achieved by tuning all the guitar
9:07
Speaker 1: strings to the same note. And in the theater of
9:11
Speaker 1: eternal music, Cale and Conrad had been doing something similar,
9:15
Speaker 1: and they realized that the gap between their very avant
9:20
Speaker 1: garde music, which had no chance of selling a lot
9:23
Speaker 1: of records are being on AM radio and the straightforward
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Speaker 1: rock and roll that Lou Reid excelled at, it wasn't
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Speaker 1: that big, and especially because Reid was starting to write
9:33
Speaker 1: these very unconventional lyrics with unconventional song structures, what Cale
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Speaker 1: was doing with Halman Young could fit as the setting
9:42
Speaker 1: for those songs very well and create something that was
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Speaker 1: very new in terms of what could be done in
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Speaker 1: rock music.
9:50
Speaker 2: Sterling Morrison, he gets overshadowed by Lou Reid and John Klee,
9:54
Speaker 2: yet he was there almost from the very beginning. Why
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Speaker 2: do you think he is the unsung here of the
10:01
Speaker 2: Velvet Underground.
10:02
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's the absolute unsung hero. He's
10:06
Speaker 1: an unsung hero in some ways because he didn't though
10:11
Speaker 1: he sometimes contended he should have gotten writing credits. His
10:14
Speaker 1: contributions were more in arranging than writing the words or
10:18
Speaker 1: the melody. So he wasn't the songwriter that Reid was
10:22
Speaker 1: and that Kale was to some degree, even with The
10:24
Speaker 1: Velvet Underground and which Nico would become. And also, although
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Speaker 1: he did play some lead guitar, the guitar and the
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Speaker 1: Velvet Underground was sort of a combination of him and
10:35
Speaker 1: Lou Reed who was a very underrated adventurous guitarist. But
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Speaker 1: I think that he, with his music, his guitar playing,
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Speaker 1: and his personality gave the group a grounding where if
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Speaker 1: Reed and Cale had been left more to their own devices,
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Speaker 1: the music wouldn't have had nearly as much structure and
10:59
Speaker 1: whatever appear that it had to begin with, and certainly
11:03
Speaker 1: in the subsequent decade since the group disbanded. And also
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Speaker 1: it was a volatile combination of personalities. They had I
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Speaker 1: think a lot of affection for each other, but they were,
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Speaker 1: especially Read and Kale near the beginning, very strong willed,
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Speaker 1: and they wanted to have things done a certain way,
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Speaker 1: which might have been hard to combine if they were
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Speaker 1: butting heads and Sterling Morrison was somebody who could level
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Speaker 1: the field and cool those guys out and help them
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Speaker 1: achieve a middle ground. At least when John Kle was
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Speaker 1: in the group, which he was for like three and
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Speaker 1: a half years.
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Speaker 2: Lou and John pushed each other creatively like few songwriting
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Speaker 2: partners ever have. Do you think either one would have
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Speaker 2: achieved the same artistic heights without the other.
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Speaker 1: No, I don't think either one would have gotten to
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Speaker 1: where the Velvet Underground did. When they combined forces. It's
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Speaker 1: hard to say, but I think Lou Reed might have
11:58
Speaker 1: stayed more in this andred rock and roll world. He
12:01
Speaker 1: was writing as a staff songwriter for a really cheap
12:06
Speaker 1: budget label, and he was doing or working towards some
12:11
Speaker 1: songs like Pale Blue Eyes and Heroin on his own.
12:15
Speaker 1: But it was meeting John Cale, which I think made
12:19
Speaker 1: him more determined to focus on that area of his
12:22
Speaker 1: work rather than or try and sound like somebody else,
12:26
Speaker 1: write these songs and get them published. And John Kill
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Speaker 1: an interesting comment he had in an interview when they
12:34
Speaker 1: were starting to work up some of those unconventional songs
12:38
Speaker 1: was that the music is not fitting the lyrics of
12:43
Speaker 1: these songs. Is still sounding when they were first rehearsing
12:47
Speaker 1: like folk revival music, very folky music. It has to
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Speaker 1: not just reflect the lyrics but be just as adventurous
12:57
Speaker 1: and relatively out there as the compositions the cells are.
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Speaker 1: And I think that combination, especially although the other members
13:06
Speaker 1: of the Velvet Underground were very important, was what set
13:09
Speaker 1: that group aside from all others. By the end of
13:12
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five, before they had made their first record.
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Speaker 2: Such a unique chemistry and Marien Tucker almost no professional
13:19
Speaker 2: drumming experience. Why did they believe she was the right choice.
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Speaker 1: Their original drummer, Angus mcleas, was very much from the
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Speaker 1: avant garde world of John Klee. He had played with
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Speaker 1: Lamont Young, and it's unfortunate there are no recordings of
13:34
Speaker 1: him with the Velvets in nineteen sixty five. There's a
13:36
Speaker 1: little on film with him in nineteen sixty six. He
13:40
Speaker 1: had a style of drumming which has been compared to
13:43
Speaker 1: the sound of falling Ray. Now, that might be interesting,
13:46
Speaker 1: but it's not something that could create the kind of
13:49
Speaker 1: tempos for rock songs, or at least the kind of
13:55
Speaker 1: rock songs that the Velvets eventually created. But also he
13:59
Speaker 1: left the group unexpectedly near the end of nineteen sixty five.
14:02
Speaker 1: He wasn't kicked out because he was so uncompromising in
14:06
Speaker 1: his avant garde vision that he felt it was a
14:10
Speaker 1: sellout to be paid for playing. And when the Velvet
14:13
Speaker 1: Underground got their first relatively conventional gig at a high
14:18
Speaker 1: school in suburban New Jersey, he quit and the Velvet
14:21
Speaker 1: Underground were in a panic because they needed a drummer
14:24
Speaker 1: within a few days, and Marine was originally recruited I
14:29
Speaker 1: think out of a sense of emergency. We don't really
14:34
Speaker 1: know any drummers, but we do know that our friend
14:37
Speaker 1: Sterling and Loewe's friend Jim Tucker, who had gone to
14:41
Speaker 1: the same school as the same college as Lou, we
14:44
Speaker 1: know he has a younger sister who played drums, and
14:47
Speaker 1: they had met the younger sister before, but they auditioned
14:51
Speaker 1: her because we need somebody right now, and it also
14:53
Speaker 1: helped that she had access to a car and amplifiers.
14:58
Speaker 1: But to their credit, they he realized very quickly she's
15:01
Speaker 1: a really good fit stylistically for the group. Both of
15:04
Speaker 1: those guys, Asterley Morrison, I don't think they would have
15:07
Speaker 1: put up with somebody who was just in there to
15:09
Speaker 1: fill a spot for a gig or two as an emergency.
15:13
Speaker 1: And her style did really fit because even though it
15:16
Speaker 1: might not have been as technically sophisticated as many other
15:20
Speaker 1: rock drummers, it had that insistent, pounding rhythm which really
15:24
Speaker 1: helped drive the message of the songs home. And she
15:26
Speaker 1: could vary the tones of the drums, for instance in Heroin,
15:29
Speaker 1: but also Altamara's parties, the almost feutu real low notes.
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Speaker 1: They really add to the drama of those songs and
15:37
Speaker 1: some others that I could name. She had a very
15:39
Speaker 1: unusual technical style where she played standing up, and no
15:45
Speaker 1: other drummers had exactly that style, so it ended up
15:48
Speaker 1: being a really good fit for the group and as
15:50
Speaker 1: a personality. Doug Yule, who replaced John Cale, told me
15:54
Speaker 1: this that she really helped the whole group get along,
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Speaker 1: especially lou Reed, who could be pretty mood to get
16:01
Speaker 1: along with the rest of the group, and that when
16:04
Speaker 1: she became pregnant and could not play on their fourth album, Loaded,
16:07
Speaker 1: that was a big mistake that they didn't wait until
16:10
Speaker 1: she could play, not only because they really needed her
16:13
Speaker 1: drummer skills to be their best, but also because as
16:17
Speaker 1: a personality she could make she could smooth things over
16:20
Speaker 1: and make them all get along better.
16:23
Speaker 2: Andy Warhol often credited with discovering the Velvet Underground. How
16:26
Speaker 2: accurate is that and what was his real contribution to
16:29
Speaker 2: the band.
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Speaker 1: He didn't really discover them. It was more that other
16:32
Speaker 1: people in Andy Warhol's factory became aware of them, and
16:38
Speaker 1: within a few weeks, when they were playing a small
16:41
Speaker 1: club in Greenwich Village, got other members of the factory
16:45
Speaker 1: to watch them and then Andy Warhol, near the end
16:48
Speaker 1: of that month, December nineteen sixty five, came by. It
16:52
Speaker 1: seems that Barbara Rubin, who was also a filmmaker, was
16:55
Speaker 1: the first person in that crowd to really like the
16:58
Speaker 1: Velvet Underground, and Gerard Berlanga came along relatively soon afterward
17:04
Speaker 1: and danced to the group, and they literally liked that,
17:06
Speaker 1: and he really liked the group. He was an assistant
17:09
Speaker 1: of Warhol already at that point. Through them, Paul Morrissey,
17:14
Speaker 1: the business manager of Andy Warhol, saw the Velvet Underground,
17:18
Speaker 1: and he knew that Warhol wanted to make money by
17:21
Speaker 1: sponsoring or managing a rock group, and then Warhol saw them,
17:25
Speaker 1: but too, I think that although sometimes the impression is given, well,
17:29
Speaker 1: Andy Warhol just wanted a rock group to be part
17:34
Speaker 1: of this multi media spectacle. It didn't matter so much
17:37
Speaker 1: what the rock group was. I think they were a
17:40
Speaker 1: really good fit, and I think Warhol realized that that
17:43
Speaker 1: it wasn't just going to be a good rock group
17:45
Speaker 1: that was local like the Rascals from Long Islands, but
17:49
Speaker 1: one that was like he was with his art and
17:52
Speaker 1: then through his underground films, exploring territory that had not
17:56
Speaker 1: been they were doing that in rock music, and they
17:59
Speaker 1: were going into some subjects that his films did controversially,
18:03
Speaker 1: sexually and with drug use and with sort of outsider personalities.
18:11
Speaker 1: His contribution to the group it sort of mixed, because
18:16
Speaker 1: he immediately got them more media attention than they could
18:19
Speaker 1: have possibly gotten with almost any other manager, because Warhol
18:22
Speaker 1: was already really famous as a pop artist and to
18:26
Speaker 1: some degree as a filmmaker. So when he, with the
18:29
Speaker 1: help of others, devised the multi media show in which
18:32
Speaker 1: they played for like a year and a half, the
18:35
Speaker 1: Exploding Plastic Inevitable, they got way more media coverage than
18:40
Speaker 1: they would have gotten, especially as an unsigned band, through
18:43
Speaker 1: almost any other means. But being part of that EPI,
18:47
Speaker 1: as it's often abbreviated, it meant that the music was
18:52
Speaker 1: sort of overshadowed by the spectacle of the dancers and
18:55
Speaker 1: the films that we were being projected and the flashing lights.
18:59
Speaker 1: If you read the media coverage of their first year
19:01
Speaker 1: year and a half or so of concerts, they're almost
19:04
Speaker 1: mentioned incidentally as a sideshow as part of this multi
19:09
Speaker 1: media event, and also Nico. It was Warhol and Morrissey's
19:15
Speaker 1: idea to bring Nico into the group. She got way
19:18
Speaker 1: more media attention than the rest of the group combined,
19:22
Speaker 1: even though Lou Reid was writing and singing most of
19:25
Speaker 1: the songs and all the others had very important artistic identities,
19:30
Speaker 1: but something very important Andy Warhol did, and the members
19:33
Speaker 1: were vocal about crediting him for this. He wasn't a
19:37
Speaker 1: producer of their first album in the sense of suggesting
19:42
Speaker 1: mike placement or ways to change how songs were, but
19:46
Speaker 1: he insisted, you've got to keep the songs as they are,
19:49
Speaker 1: and especially use all of the dirty words in your songs.
19:53
Speaker 1: Don't self censor anything. And he also gave Lou Read
19:57
Speaker 1: a lot of encouragement as a songwriter. Read said in
20:00
Speaker 1: a few interviews. Andy Warhol would often ask him, what
20:04
Speaker 1: have you written lately or what have you written today?
20:06
Speaker 1: And Reid might have said, well, I wrote a couple
20:08
Speaker 1: new songs, and Warhol would say, You've got to do more.
20:12
Speaker 1: You've always got to be working, and Warhol always was,
20:14
Speaker 1: although he had the image of letting other people do
20:17
Speaker 1: a lot of his work, and they took a lot
20:19
Speaker 1: of that inspiration from him. But by the middle of
20:22
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven, they and especially rue Reid felt like
20:25
Speaker 1: they wanted to be known more for their music rather
20:29
Speaker 1: than as part of an Andy Warhol event.
20:31
Speaker 2: Going back to Nico, one myth was that Nico was
20:34
Speaker 2: forced upon the band. How accurate is that characterization.
20:38
Speaker 1: It was the idea of Paul Morrissey, who I interviewed
20:42
Speaker 1: him really thinks of himself as the co manager of
20:46
Speaker 1: the group with Andy Warhol and Andy Warhol because especially
20:50
Speaker 1: Morrissey felt that the group needed more glamour, more visual appeal,
20:55
Speaker 1: and it wasn't their idea, but they were mollified when
21:00
Speaker 1: it was agreed that the billing could be the Velvet
21:02
Speaker 1: Underground and Nico, so it was kind of understood she
21:05
Speaker 1: was sort of separate and that she would only do
21:08
Speaker 1: a few songs, not the majority of them, or sing
21:11
Speaker 1: a few of the songs. Lou Reed would sing most
21:14
Speaker 1: of those, and I think they really benefited from her
21:20
Speaker 1: presence even though she only sang lead on three Velvet
21:23
Speaker 1: Underground songs. They're all really good songs. They're all among
21:26
Speaker 1: their best songs, and they are enhanced by Nico's presence.
21:30
Speaker 1: All Tomar's parties, fem Fetal, I'll be your mirror, she
21:33
Speaker 1: sings background on Sunday Morning too. And I think at
21:39
Speaker 1: least with time they realized, even when they were recording
21:42
Speaker 1: their first album, yes, this really helps the record, makes
21:46
Speaker 1: it more diverse. But her voice is a good fit
21:48
Speaker 1: at least for these songs. It's not for Waiting for
21:51
Speaker 1: the Man or something that's more propulsive rock. But with
21:57
Speaker 1: time going on, and I think there was some jealousy
21:59
Speaker 1: that she was getting so much media attention. They felt
22:03
Speaker 1: that there's not a whole lot we can fit her into,
22:06
Speaker 1: especially with the way our sound is changing in some
22:10
Speaker 1: regards to be more hard rock. But in retrospect they
22:16
Speaker 1: all had comments that in some ways were positive. If
22:21
Speaker 1: they felt like she was forced upon them, I think
22:24
Speaker 1: they realized at the time, but certainly in retrospect when
22:27
Speaker 1: she was with the group, she did add something to
22:29
Speaker 1: the group, but it couldn't last because it wasn't entirely compatible.
22:33
Speaker 2: Richie Unterberger, the author of Do What You Fear Most
22:36
Speaker 2: The History of the Velvet Underground, talk a little bit
22:39
Speaker 2: more about the exploding plastic inevitable. It was unlike anything
22:43
Speaker 2: audiences had experienced before. For listeners who are unfamiliar with it,
22:46
Speaker 2: what exactly was it? How was that presented.
22:49
Speaker 1: It's too bad that it's not preserved in great detail
22:54
Speaker 1: on film. There is a film, not by Warhol, by
22:57
Speaker 1: a guy named Ron Namath in Chicago, and it gives
23:01
Speaker 1: you some sense of what it was like. Although lou
23:04
Speaker 1: Reed was not with the group because he was in
23:06
Speaker 1: the hospital when that was being filmed, and Nico wasn't
23:09
Speaker 1: there either, But the idea was to have almost a
23:16
Speaker 1: sensory assault, maybe that's not the best word, but an
23:21
Speaker 1: event that could be experienced from several different angles, not
23:27
Speaker 1: just watching and hearing somebody who's on stage. You could
23:30
Speaker 1: do that, but at the same time there would be films,
23:32
Speaker 1: sometimes Warhol films being projected on the group and in
23:36
Speaker 1: the background, sometimes with members of the group the screen
23:40
Speaker 1: test that Warhol did or sometimes not. These dancers that
23:45
Speaker 1: if the velvis didn't have much visual movement when they started,
23:49
Speaker 1: helped make that more exciting kind of writhing to the
23:52
Speaker 1: music and enacting or acting out some of the songs
23:55
Speaker 1: like Venus and Furs. And also a light show, which
24:00
Speaker 1: was a new innovation in rock music at that time.
24:03
Speaker 1: There were light shows elsewhere in San Francisco, New York,
24:06
Speaker 1: and some other cities, but Warhol himself would sometimes operate
24:10
Speaker 1: the lights or let people in the audience operate them
24:14
Speaker 1: to add a sense of unpredictability, and they were, at
24:19
Speaker 1: least by some of the audience, considered art events, not
24:22
Speaker 1: just musical events. So now, as I said, that's sort
24:25
Speaker 1: of a double edged sword, because maybe the qualities of
24:29
Speaker 1: the music weren't as apparent as they would have been
24:31
Speaker 1: in a more conventional concert setting. But it did draw
24:35
Speaker 1: a lot of people initially who might not have even
24:38
Speaker 1: gone to a rock concert or been considered above the
24:42
Speaker 1: usual age at that time for people going to rock
24:44
Speaker 1: shows because it had Warhol's name sometimes in the advertising,
24:48
Speaker 1: but it was sort of considered performance art as well
24:51
Speaker 1: as a rock concert.
24:52
Speaker 2: Is it in New York only?
24:54
Speaker 1: No, It started in New York, and they for about
24:58
Speaker 1: an entire month were playing every night at a place
25:01
Speaker 1: in the village, the Dome. But then over the course
25:05
Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty six and early nineteen sixty seven, the
25:10
Speaker 1: show went to California briefly, but also to Boston and
25:16
Speaker 1: Michigan and some other places, a couple gigs in Canada.
25:22
Speaker 1: What they should have done, and some members have said
25:25
Speaker 1: this in interviews, is take it to Europe, because in
25:29
Speaker 1: retrospect it was felt that they might have gotten the
25:31
Speaker 1: bigger audience if they had played in Europe, where they
25:35
Speaker 1: seemed to have gained a lot of appreciation. Part of
25:38
Speaker 1: the reason it seems like they didn't go there and
25:40
Speaker 1: there were discussions about bringing them to the United Kingdom
25:44
Speaker 1: and continental Europe, was that it was just so expensive
25:47
Speaker 1: to fly over like twenty people and support them and
25:51
Speaker 1: make them part of the show like they were in
25:53
Speaker 1: the United States.
25:54
Speaker 2: Was it similar to and I'm not sure what the
25:56
Speaker 2: timeline on this is, but it was it similar to
25:58
Speaker 2: like Pink Floyd. Was it the UFO Club? Yeah, kind
26:02
Speaker 2: of like that.
26:03
Speaker 1: It seems like that was the case, but with Pink
26:06
Speaker 1: Floyd it wasn't as elaborate a though it seemed pretty cool.
26:11
Speaker 1: There were like shows when Pink Floyd played in their
26:14
Speaker 1: very early years, say nineteen sixty six and early nineteen
26:18
Speaker 1: sixty seven, and those were some of the first like
26:23
Speaker 1: shows presented in Britain. They were concocted on or at
26:27
Speaker 1: least partially inspired by the reports they were reading in
26:30
Speaker 1: music papers of what was going on at San Francisco concerts.
26:34
Speaker 1: It didn't have the Pink Floyd shows at the it's
26:38
Speaker 1: actually pronounced Ufo Club, but understandably a lot of people
26:42
Speaker 1: think it's the Ufo Club. It was a small place
26:44
Speaker 1: that concentrated on underground rock and the underground experience, but
26:48
Speaker 1: it didn't have those other dancers, it wouldn't have had
26:52
Speaker 1: the access to all of those underground films that Werehol made.
26:56
Speaker 1: So I don't know how to compare it too fairly
27:01
Speaker 1: because there's not great film footage of either of those
27:07
Speaker 1: sort of events, and it would have been hard to
27:09
Speaker 1: capture on film at that point. But it seemed simpler,
27:13
Speaker 1: maybe more basic, with the Pink Floyd performances. But the
27:17
Speaker 1: people who were at the Pink Floyd performances really loved
27:20
Speaker 1: both the music and the light show aspect. And because
27:24
Speaker 1: there wasn't the Warhol name and the additional effects that
27:28
Speaker 1: the exploding plastic Inevitable had, maybe the audiences seeing early
27:33
Speaker 1: Pink Floyd concentrated more in the music and they got
27:35
Speaker 1: more out of the music than they would have out
27:38
Speaker 1: of the Velvet Underground.
27:41
Speaker 2: The Velvet Underground and Nico has gone from a commercial
27:44
Speaker 2: disappointment to one of the most influential albums ever made.
27:48
Speaker 2: Why did it fail to find an audience in sixty seven.
27:51
Speaker 2: Was it too far ahead of its time?
27:53
Speaker 1: I think it was too far ahead of its time,
27:57
Speaker 1: maybe better phrases out of line with trends of the time.
28:04
Speaker 1: There was a business disappointment that had something to do
28:08
Speaker 1: with this, which I write about in the book. Shortly
28:11
Speaker 1: after the album came out, like just a couple of
28:13
Speaker 1: weeks afterward, somebody from the Exploding Classic Inevitable a dancer,
28:18
Speaker 1: Eric Emerson. He also acted in some Warhol films. His
28:22
Speaker 1: image was on the back of the record, not the
28:26
Speaker 1: front with a banana, but the back cover, and he
28:30
Speaker 1: sued to get the album pulled from distribution. The belief
28:38
Speaker 1: seems to be he wasn't intending to destroy the Velvet
28:41
Speaker 1: Underground or Warhol's career. He wanted some quick money. He
28:46
Speaker 1: wanted to get some money out of this. But what
28:48
Speaker 1: the effect was, and I at the Randy Warhol Archives
28:52
Speaker 1: found correspondence about this. It went all the way up
28:55
Speaker 1: to the head of MGM Records, their record label, and
29:00
Speaker 1: he or MGM Records. For all the albums that had
29:07
Speaker 1: been manufactured, they put stickers over them so that you
29:11
Speaker 1: couldn't see this guy, Eric Emerson that delayed distribution of
29:16
Speaker 1: the album by quite a bit, and the album had
29:20
Speaker 1: just started to enter the top two hundred in the
29:22
Speaker 1: low numbers, but then it disappeared for like a few months,
29:26
Speaker 1: and I do believe that had an effect, and then
29:29
Speaker 1: finally got back into distribution with that ugly sticker, but
29:34
Speaker 1: yet at the same time they couldn't regain that momentum. Also,
29:38
Speaker 1: although FM radio underground from radio was just starting and
29:43
Speaker 1: it would help people like Jimmy Hendrix who didn't have
29:46
Speaker 1: big hit singles become big stars, it was just starting.
29:50
Speaker 1: Even a year or two later, there will be a
29:53
Speaker 1: lot more stations, they would have much more listeners. That's
29:56
Speaker 1: where the record would be played. It wouldn't be played
29:58
Speaker 1: on AM radio with singles, although the velves did put
30:00
Speaker 1: out a couple of singles, and the music was sometimes
30:04
Speaker 1: too underground for the underground. I think it's unfair that
30:08
Speaker 1: songs like Heroin and a little later Sister Ray they
30:12
Speaker 1: tabbed the Velvets as the image of being junkies who
30:16
Speaker 1: were advocating drugs. That's just a few of their songs,
30:19
Speaker 1: and they weren't really advocating drugs. They were more describing
30:22
Speaker 1: the hard drug experience, but that was considered too sort
30:27
Speaker 1: of devious for even a lot of underground rock listeners
30:31
Speaker 1: or programmers. The album did not do as bad as
30:35
Speaker 1: a lot of reports seemed to have it, where it
30:37
Speaker 1: seems like, oh, it disappeared, or it barely sold anything.
30:42
Speaker 1: According to a royalty statement from a couple of years later,
30:46
Speaker 1: it sold sixty thousand copies or so, and that's not
30:50
Speaker 1: a hit record, but it's not that bad. There were
30:52
Speaker 1: a lot of albums back then that sold a lot less,
30:55
Speaker 1: and over time, according to a lawyer who works with them,
30:59
Speaker 1: it has sold three million copies worldwide, but most of
31:02
Speaker 1: those were after lou Reed left the group in nineteen seventy.
31:06
Speaker 2: And then after the relatively melodic debut album they took
31:10
Speaker 2: a dramatic left turn with White Light White Heat. What
31:12
Speaker 2: inspired that shift? Were they deliberately trying to challenge listeners
31:16
Speaker 2: or even maybe alienate listeners, or what was the intent
31:19
Speaker 2: on that.
31:20
Speaker 1: I don't think they ever wanted to alienate listeners, but
31:22
Speaker 1: they were determined to if they decided on a certain direction,
31:27
Speaker 1: pursue that to the max, regardless of what commercial effect
31:31
Speaker 1: it might have. When you look at the playlist of
31:36
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground that have survived from mid sixty six
31:38
Speaker 1: to late sixty seven. They could have done a much
31:41
Speaker 1: different record. It would have had to have been a
31:44
Speaker 1: double album where they could have had genle songs like
31:46
Speaker 1: Stephanie Says, which didn't come out for a long time,
31:50
Speaker 1: or Here She Comes Now, which did make it on
31:52
Speaker 1: the record. They could have had a lot more songs
31:54
Speaker 1: like that, but I think they decided we only have
31:58
Speaker 1: space for one single. That's how it was with most groups,
32:02
Speaker 1: and we want to make a consistent sound, and we
32:04
Speaker 1: want to go all out, except possibly for here She
32:08
Speaker 1: Comes Now. All six of the songs are really loud
32:13
Speaker 1: and sometimes dissonant or at the very least kind of weird,
32:17
Speaker 1: like the Gift, which is a short story that's narrated
32:19
Speaker 1: by John Cale. And they recorded in a way that
32:24
Speaker 1: they didn't turn down their instruments and the technology in
32:26
Speaker 1: late nineteen sixty seven in the studio couldn't allow for
32:31
Speaker 1: the frequencies to be captured as they could have a
32:35
Speaker 1: few years later or certainly now, and the needles were
32:38
Speaker 1: going into the red which causes distortion, and an engineer
32:41
Speaker 1: it was probably Gary Kelgern, although they didn't really name him.
32:45
Speaker 1: In interviews, Kelgren worked with Hendrix two seem to be
32:49
Speaker 1: really dismayed by their lack of caution and saying, we
32:54
Speaker 1: don't care if it goes into the red. We want
32:55
Speaker 1: to keep it that way. It was sort of that
32:59
Speaker 1: or nothing. They weren't going to turn down their instruments
33:02
Speaker 1: because they felt like it wouldn't that it was sort
33:04
Speaker 1: of blunty impact. It should not, however, have been a
33:08
Speaker 1: surprise that it didn't sell many copies, not nearly as
33:11
Speaker 1: many even as the Banana album, because it was just
33:15
Speaker 1: so unreletting, and just because of its length. Sister Ray,
33:18
Speaker 1: one of their better known songs, is seventeen minutes. That
33:20
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been played on even FM radio very much.
33:23
Speaker 1: They were playing some really long songs, like in Nagatadavita,
33:27
Speaker 1: but not that one so much.
33:28
Speaker 2: Were there are only six tracks on there.
33:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the minutes. Yeah yeah, side two,
33:34
Speaker 1: which is more than twenty minutes. It's just two songs,
33:36
Speaker 1: and one of them seventeen minutes.
33:38
Speaker 2: John Cale's departure has been debated for decades. What ultimately
33:41
Speaker 2: led lou Reed to decide it was time for a change.
33:43
Speaker 1: That's still something of a mystery because even though Reid
33:47
Speaker 1: and Kale and the rest of the Velvets, they did
33:50
Speaker 1: a lot of interviews and no one has pinpointed, well,
33:56
Speaker 1: lou Reed wanted to do these two songs and John
33:59
Speaker 1: Cale would absolutely not play on them. Something more concrete
34:03
Speaker 1: like that, or lou Reid was really angry at John
34:06
Speaker 1: Cale because he stole some he stole a girlfriend or
34:11
Speaker 1: something like that. Lou Reed never even speculated, well, it
34:16
Speaker 1: was a combination of blah blah blah. It was more like,
34:20
Speaker 1: that's really personal and I don't want to get into it.
34:23
Speaker 1: And John Cale in some interviews has said I to
34:27
Speaker 1: this day don't really know. And lou Reid, I think,
34:31
Speaker 1: to his discredit, he did not fire John Cale personally.
34:37
Speaker 1: He had Sterling Morrison do it. I think that's pretty low.
34:41
Speaker 1: But here's my speculation based on some of their comments,
34:44
Speaker 1: but also some comments of others. John Cale wanted to
34:47
Speaker 1: push the avant garde aspect of the group lou Reid
34:51
Speaker 1: at this point, and you can hear it on the
34:53
Speaker 1: third album and some of the live stuff from nineteen
34:56
Speaker 1: sixty nine. He didn't want to become a normal group
34:59
Speaker 1: and sell out, but he wanted to do more straightforward songs,
35:03
Speaker 1: songs which were more built around riffs, were danceable, or
35:06
Speaker 1: some ballads. I don't know if Cale has stayed in
35:11
Speaker 1: the group, if he could have stayed through or the
35:14
Speaker 1: group could have endured through the third album, because I
35:17
Speaker 1: could see there might have been loggerheads. John Cale insisting
35:21
Speaker 1: we've got to put these songs on, or we have
35:23
Speaker 1: to do the songs this way, with a lot of
35:25
Speaker 1: electronics screeching, some dissonance, and lou Reed saying, no, these
35:30
Speaker 1: songs have to go on. It has to be this way.
35:32
Speaker 1: I wrote the songs, and maybe they would have broken
35:35
Speaker 1: up during the third album. It might not be a
35:37
Speaker 1: coincidence that Cale was fired only a month before the
35:40
Speaker 1: session started for the third album, and Doug Yule, who
35:45
Speaker 1: replaced John Cale, much more quote conventional rock musician, although
35:49
Speaker 1: a very good one. I think he could fit into
35:54
Speaker 1: the direction Lou Reed's songs were going better than Cale
35:57
Speaker 1: could have. And also, at least at the beginning, because
36:00
Speaker 1: he was younger than anyone else in the group and
36:02
Speaker 1: he was a new guy, he was going to be
36:05
Speaker 1: somebody who wouldn't put up a fight if there were
36:07
Speaker 1: artistic disputes that would change by nineteen seventy, but perhaps
36:11
Speaker 1: for the third album that ensured that their record could
36:14
Speaker 1: go as certainly lou Reed planned.
36:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, that third album I want to ask you about,
36:19
Speaker 2: so that one is considered. It's often called Velvet Underground's
36:23
Speaker 2: most beautiful and emotionally intimate record. Some fans consider this
36:28
Speaker 2: lou Reed song running masterpiece. Brian Eno called it his
36:32
Speaker 2: favorite Velvet Underground album. Why do you think so many
36:35
Speaker 2: musicians are especially drawn to it?
36:38
Speaker 1: I think it's because of the strength of the songs,
36:41
Speaker 1: but also in a different way than White Like Heat,
36:46
Speaker 1: it's a statement that we're not going to be meaning
36:49
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground do things people expect, and if we
36:54
Speaker 1: decide we want to explore a certain mood in death,
36:58
Speaker 1: we're going to go all out and as noisy as
37:02
Speaker 1: the second album was, make a record that's as quiet
37:06
Speaker 1: almost as it can possibly be. Just from my own experience,
37:10
Speaker 1: I didn't hear the Velvet Underground when they were active
37:13
Speaker 1: because I'm sixty four, but I didn't even hear them
37:16
Speaker 1: in depth until nineteen seventy nine, when I started college
37:19
Speaker 1: when I was seventeen, and i'd read about the third
37:22
Speaker 1: album in advance, so I wasn't totally shocked that it
37:25
Speaker 1: was much different from the second album, and in fact
37:29
Speaker 1: from the Banana album, and much quieter, but still I
37:33
Speaker 1: found an import. It took some searching. It wasn't in
37:36
Speaker 1: print in the US, and I put on Candy Says,
37:40
Speaker 1: and I felt like they're trying. It's not only like
37:43
Speaker 1: they're trying to do something quiet. They're trying to be
37:47
Speaker 1: as quiet as possible, especially with that song, but also
37:50
Speaker 1: some others like Jesus and Pale Blue Eyes. And part
37:57
Speaker 1: of the reason musicians might be attracted to it is
38:01
Speaker 1: a it's sort of standard bearer of you can do
38:09
Speaker 1: stuff that people don't expect that maybe people are going
38:13
Speaker 1: to resist to begin with, at least because you've established
38:16
Speaker 1: a certain image. But also the ambience of the record.
38:19
Speaker 1: I think that might be what attracts people like Brian Eno.
38:22
Speaker 1: It has a very ethereal sort of ambient quality, which
38:27
Speaker 1: adds to the mystery. It's almost like listening to it
38:30
Speaker 1: through a fog. And someone like EEno might be thinking
38:34
Speaker 1: because he's, as you and probably most of your listeners know,
38:38
Speaker 1: he's produced and created a diverse range, extremely diverse range
38:43
Speaker 1: of sounds. He might be thinking, it's amazing that this
38:50
Speaker 1: sort of sound can be created that nobody else has,
38:53
Speaker 1: and it's not through technological wizardry or a lot of
38:57
Speaker 1: volume is through an unexpected the combination of instruments, and
39:03
Speaker 1: it has that sound that is really hard for anybody
39:07
Speaker 1: to create. That could only be the velvet Underground. I'm speculating.
39:12
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's exactly ENO's thoughts, but it
39:15
Speaker 1: might be the thoughts of people like.
39:16
Speaker 2: Eno great Well, lou Reed and Brianino. I think we're
39:20
Speaker 2: similar taking sounds and creating something out of that there fast.
39:25
Speaker 2: I know Lourie talked about that once. He's just fascinated
39:27
Speaker 2: with sounds and what you could do with them and
39:29
Speaker 2: put them together and create a piece of art.
39:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he could do that with both hardcore experimental material,
39:36
Speaker 1: like he would on Mental Machine Music in his solo career,
39:39
Speaker 1: but even on something like I Heard Her Call My Name,
39:44
Speaker 1: he is almost using white noise with a song to
39:50
Speaker 1: create something that's in the middle territory between experimental music
39:54
Speaker 1: and rock music. Or on their sixty nine live album,
39:57
Speaker 1: the live version of White Light White Heat, which I
39:59
Speaker 1: think is a lot better than the studio version, the
40:01
Speaker 1: extended instrumental breaks. They are almost like a combination of
40:05
Speaker 1: white noise and really furious hard rock. That's sort of
40:10
Speaker 1: an underrated quality to Lou Reed I think, certainly when
40:14
Speaker 1: he was with The Velid Underground.
40:16
Speaker 2: And then after that self titled third album comes Loaded,
40:20
Speaker 2: maybe that's the most popular because it's got Sweet Jane
40:23
Speaker 2: and rock and roll and oh Sweet Nothing's on there.
40:26
Speaker 2: Those are classics looking back, Do you think this represents
40:28
Speaker 2: lou Reid at the peak of his songwriting powers.
40:31
Speaker 1: I do think it represents him at the peak of
40:33
Speaker 1: his songwriting powers. I differ with some Velvet Underground fans
40:38
Speaker 1: in that I don't think it's always the best representation
40:43
Speaker 1: of the music of the Velid Underground. Fortunately, there are
40:47
Speaker 1: live recordings of most of those songs at the very least,
40:51
Speaker 1: although I prefer them in general, I think anybody would
40:55
Speaker 1: say they're very different. It's pretty different to experience Sweet
40:58
Speaker 1: Jane as slow, intense ballad instead of the anthemic, rift
41:04
Speaker 1: driven rocker that it is on the Loaded record. New
41:08
Speaker 1: Age I think has better lyrics originally when it was
41:12
Speaker 1: performed live. Part of the issue with that is that
41:18
Speaker 1: when the record was being finalized, lou Reed left the group,
41:22
Speaker 1: and there are still different accounts of how the mix
41:25
Speaker 1: was done. Lou Reed contended that some of the mix
41:29
Speaker 1: and the version of Sweet Jane, which is missing the bridge,
41:32
Speaker 1: was done without his approval. Doug Yule in some interviews
41:35
Speaker 1: has disputed that, but a couple of reasons why I
41:41
Speaker 1: might not elevate Loaded on the level of the other
41:44
Speaker 1: three albums at that point. I do agree that Reid
41:48
Speaker 1: was out a songwriting peak which really he had sustained
41:51
Speaker 1: since late nineteen sixty five. The Velvets could have put
41:55
Speaker 1: out a very strong double album. There are a lot
41:58
Speaker 1: of songs that they were performing Love that Read put
42:01
Speaker 1: on his early solo albums were at the at that
42:05
Speaker 1: point there were not Velvet Underground versions available, and some
42:09
Speaker 1: of them, like Satellite of Love, are really good. I
42:13
Speaker 1: think they deserved a place on a Velvet Underground album,
42:17
Speaker 1: and I don't necessarily think that the half of those
42:20
Speaker 1: songs that were selected were the best half. Absolutely, but
42:25
Speaker 1: also maybe because they had signed with a new record label,
42:28
Speaker 1: a very big one Atlantic, they were thinking we want
42:31
Speaker 1: to get more FM radio airplay, we want to be
42:34
Speaker 1: more popular. Nothing wrong with that, but the record is
42:39
Speaker 1: somewhat slicker and glossier than their previous three albums, and
42:43
Speaker 1: certainly their live sound. I don't think that always served
42:46
Speaker 1: the material the best, but as I said, there are
42:49
Speaker 1: many listeners who love that record, and even if they're
42:53
Speaker 1: aware of all those alternate versions, that doesn't matter. They
42:56
Speaker 1: just love the record as it is.
43:00
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for checking out the Booked on Rock podcast.
43:03
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43:09
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43:33
Speaker 2: at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
43:37
Speaker 2: to the show. Is Louie responsible for that beautiful opening
43:41
Speaker 2: to Sweet Jane? Does he get credit for that?
43:44
Speaker 1: I don't know if any single person is responsible.
43:47
Speaker 2: It's such a beautiful sound. It's like you're walking into heaven.
43:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what you mean. It's not related to
43:54
Speaker 1: the rest of the song melodically, and I did, and
43:59
Speaker 1: I was glad I was able to do so. Talk
44:01
Speaker 1: to one of the co producers of Loaded, Jeff Haslim,
44:05
Speaker 1: and he had barely been interviewed about the record, and
44:09
Speaker 1: when I did an interview with him about three years
44:13
Speaker 1: ago for the book. We talked for like between one
44:16
Speaker 1: and two hours, and he remembered help at least helping
44:21
Speaker 1: to create that that kind of cascade of notes. It's
44:23
Speaker 1: almost like a worderfall effect produced by guitars to make
44:31
Speaker 1: something arresting in the opening that was going to attract attention.
44:35
Speaker 1: It's almost separate from the rest of the song. But
44:38
Speaker 1: something interesting he did tell me is not so much
44:40
Speaker 1: related to this song specifically, but to the Loaded sessions.
44:44
Speaker 1: He felt that if Doug Yule hadn't been there, they
44:46
Speaker 1: could not have finished the record because Lou Reed was
44:50
Speaker 1: really up and down as far as the headspace necessary
44:54
Speaker 1: to focus on making the best record, and Doug Yule,
44:58
Speaker 1: who was at least at that point more level headed,
45:01
Speaker 1: really helped pull together as in several respects as instrumentalists.
45:09
Speaker 1: He could play several instruments, although bass was the primary
45:11
Speaker 1: one with the Velvets sometimes with his singing, but also
45:14
Speaker 1: his arranging skills. And I do think that Yule was
45:18
Speaker 1: a very underrated contributor to the Velvets the last two
45:21
Speaker 1: years that Reid was in the group.
45:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to ask a little bit more about him.
45:25
Speaker 2: Lou Reed, Yeah, he was becoming increasingly unhappy during this period.
45:30
Speaker 2: When Loaded came out, he basically he's quietly leaving the
45:33
Speaker 2: band at this point. Was there one defining event that
45:36
Speaker 2: pushed ludiquid or was it years of accumulated frustration for him.
45:40
Speaker 1: I don't know so much years, But at the time
45:42
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy, I think it was a few things that
45:44
Speaker 1: were contributing. One was that the record wasn't turning out
45:49
Speaker 1: exactly as he had hoped. I had an interesting comment
45:52
Speaker 1: from his first wife, who had just started a relationship
45:56
Speaker 1: with Reed around the summer of nineteen seventy, and she
45:59
Speaker 1: said Louw would come back from the studio and say,
46:01
Speaker 1: they're not listening to me. They're not listening to the
46:04
Speaker 1: way I want things done. It seems like in the
46:06
Speaker 1: past he had been able to get his own way
46:08
Speaker 1: most of the time, and maybe that was changing, and
46:11
Speaker 1: part because Martene Tucker wasn't at the sessions, Doug Yule
46:14
Speaker 1: was being more assertive in his creative ideas, Stirley Morrison
46:18
Speaker 1: was sort of withdrawing from the sort of combative energy
46:24
Speaker 1: of the group, which led to some of their best ideas.
46:28
Speaker 1: But also I think it was dissatisfaction that Reid had
46:31
Speaker 1: with the manager who took over from Andy Warhol, Steve Ssnick.
46:35
Speaker 1: He felt like Sesnik was pushing him and the rock
46:39
Speaker 1: and the whole group to be more conventional rock stars
46:42
Speaker 1: and do the kinds of things that are necessary to
46:45
Speaker 1: sell records. And he also, I think felt that this
46:53
Speaker 1: might have been more subconscious. He had been working really
46:57
Speaker 1: hard for five years, and although the Velvets had started
47:01
Speaker 1: the last couple of years to get really really good
47:03
Speaker 1: reviews by the rock press, they were now selling a
47:08
Speaker 1: lot of records, he wasn't making significant money out of
47:11
Speaker 1: the group, and I think he was getting exhausted by
47:14
Speaker 1: the disparity between the quality of his work with the
47:18
Speaker 1: Velvets and the recognition and the financial rewards. His first
47:22
Speaker 1: wife did mention that to me as well, and all
47:25
Speaker 1: of that sort of chune and Doug Dull being harder
47:28
Speaker 1: to get along with. Now that Yule wanted a very
47:31
Speaker 1: strong voice in the way that the songs were done
47:34
Speaker 1: and the way that they were recorded, he got really frustrated,
47:37
Speaker 1: and instead of maybe as he would have a year
47:39
Speaker 1: or two earlier, fighting to get his own way, just
47:42
Speaker 1: figuring I want to walk away from this. I'm getting
47:45
Speaker 1: to burn out by it.
47:47
Speaker 2: He quietly left, as I mentioned. Did he have a
47:49
Speaker 2: meeting with the band and set him out or was
47:51
Speaker 2: it just kind of like we haven't heard from him
47:54
Speaker 2: in a while, We're just going to move on without him.
47:56
Speaker 1: Doug Yull remembered that the Velvets for the whole summer
48:01
Speaker 1: or two months in nineteen seventy they played five nights
48:04
Speaker 1: a week at Maxis Kansas City, and August twenty third
48:10
Speaker 1: was the end of one of those five night runs,
48:14
Speaker 1: and Doug Yuell came to the next night where they
48:18
Speaker 1: were booked, expecting the whole band, including Reed, to be there,
48:21
Speaker 1: and their manager, Steve Sesnik said, Lou's not going to
48:24
Speaker 1: be here tonight, and Doug Yuell said, at first I
48:26
Speaker 1: thought he meant, well, Lou sick or something, He's not
48:28
Speaker 1: going to be here tonight. But then it was clarified, No,
48:31
Speaker 1: he's quit the group. That's how Doug Yuell found out.
48:35
Speaker 1: And a guy that I interviewed, George Nardo, who was
48:38
Speaker 1: a friend of Doug Yuell and Doug's younger brother, Billy.
48:43
Speaker 1: It was such a surprise that he was approached by
48:49
Speaker 1: Sysnick and said, we know that you're a musician. Can
48:52
Speaker 1: you fill in for Lou Reed the next few nights
48:55
Speaker 1: on the spur of the moment. It wasn't like there
48:57
Speaker 1: was a meeting. Lou's left the group with the other
49:01
Speaker 1: guys who remained, Do you want to go on? Who
49:04
Speaker 1: do you want in the group? Can we get this
49:05
Speaker 1: guy in for just a few shows to finish our
49:07
Speaker 1: Max's residency. Another complication was Maureen Tucker did not play
49:12
Speaker 1: with them at Max's, although she went back into the
49:15
Speaker 1: group without lou Reid and maybe he was unhappy that
49:20
Speaker 1: the lineup, which had established a velid underground sound, it
49:25
Speaker 1: was becoming more dissipated Sterling Morrison not being as involved either,
49:29
Speaker 1: although he was still playing with them.
49:31
Speaker 2: Was he all that frustration, all of that, all of
49:33
Speaker 2: that was he non confrontational lou Reid. Was he the
49:36
Speaker 2: type of guy that didn't confront people, And maybe that's
49:38
Speaker 2: why because you mentioned him also whether somebody was fired
49:41
Speaker 2: and he had somebody else do it.
49:43
Speaker 1: In those instances, it seems that way. In some other instances,
49:46
Speaker 1: it seems he was confrontational. He fired. According to what
49:50
Speaker 1: people have remembered, he fired Lou Reed in person, and
49:54
Speaker 1: Warhol wasn't happy about that, and there was at least
49:58
Speaker 1: briefly some genuine tension between them. But in those things,
50:03
Speaker 1: I think with firing Kale, it was sort of like,
50:07
Speaker 1: it's not like arguing over how a song should go,
50:10
Speaker 1: He's going to be really angry and he wanted to
50:12
Speaker 1: avoid that. But when he left the group, I think
50:17
Speaker 1: it was maybe I really want to go off on
50:19
Speaker 1: my own and not do any music for a while,
50:23
Speaker 1: and I just want to disappear. I don't want to
50:25
Speaker 1: have arguments about it, because all these other arguments have
50:28
Speaker 1: warned me out. It wasn't the best way to do it. No,
50:31
Speaker 1: he should have talked to the other guys and even
50:34
Speaker 1: Mareen Tucker if she wasn't performing with them, and said
50:36
Speaker 1: this is why I want to leave, and it's interesting
50:40
Speaker 1: sterling Morrison. I obviously didn't interview him because he died
50:43
Speaker 1: in ninety five, but in a long interview he gave
50:46
Speaker 1: to a Spanish journalist, he said that lou approached him
50:50
Speaker 1: shortly after he left the group and said, do you
50:53
Speaker 1: want to join me in a new group, and Morrison
50:56
Speaker 1: turned him down. And Morrison gave the reason, it's going
51:01
Speaker 1: to take us like two years to get back to
51:04
Speaker 1: where we were a couple of weeks ago or a
51:06
Speaker 1: week ago when you left. He probably couldn't have used
51:10
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground name because that was a point of
51:13
Speaker 1: dispute between the manager and Lou Reid and something else
51:18
Speaker 1: about loaded. I don't know if this figured into his thinking.
51:22
Speaker 1: One of the most interesting things I learned in writing
51:25
Speaker 1: the book, it's in some old obscure interviews, it's in
51:28
Speaker 1: more than one, is that read envisioned the first three
51:30
Speaker 1: Velvet Underground albums as installments in a novel, that each
51:34
Speaker 1: of them were different stories, and you could play them
51:38
Speaker 1: one after the other and it would tell the story
51:40
Speaker 1: of a character's journey. It's not obvious, but when he
51:43
Speaker 1: explains it, you can kind of hear where he's coming from.
51:46
Speaker 1: In a letter that was recently discovered from September nineteen seventy,
51:50
Speaker 1: he clarified to somebody in Germany who was considering publishing
51:53
Speaker 1: a book of his lyrics. Loaded is not part of
51:56
Speaker 1: that sequence. It doesn't tell a story on it, so
52:00
Speaker 1: and it's not something that follows the other three albums.
52:03
Speaker 1: And maybe because that was something that was important to him,
52:06
Speaker 1: he felt like the way he constructed the albums was
52:10
Speaker 1: reaching the end of the road if he couldn't do
52:12
Speaker 1: that with the fourth album.
52:15
Speaker 2: Find the bookdown Rock website at bookdown rock dot com.
52:18
Speaker 2: There you can find all the back episodes of the show,
52:21
Speaker 2: the latest episode in video and audio, links to all
52:24
Speaker 2: of the platforms where you can listen to the podcast,
52:26
Speaker 2: plus all the social media platforms were on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok,
52:32
Speaker 2: and x. Also check out the booked on Rock blog.
52:35
Speaker 2: Find your local independent bookstore, find out all the latest
52:38
Speaker 2: hot rock book releases, and before you go, check out
52:41
Speaker 2: the booked on Rock online store. Pick up some booked
52:43
Speaker 2: on Rock merch. It's all at booked on Rock dot com. So, Doug,
52:48
Speaker 2: you I think he really answered this question already, But
52:51
Speaker 2: has history been a little too hard on him? Because
52:53
Speaker 2: he's often lived in John Cale's shadow.
52:55
Speaker 1: I think definitely he might not be I would say
53:00
Speaker 1: he isn't a talent on the level of John Cale.
53:04
Speaker 1: That is not so important to me because the music
53:07
Speaker 1: that he did in the two years after joining the Velvets,
53:10
Speaker 1: when Lou was still in the group, I think is
53:13
Speaker 1: just as good as what they did with John Cale.
53:16
Speaker 1: It's different, but it's just as good. For some listeners
53:20
Speaker 1: who feel like the Velvets at their most out there,
53:24
Speaker 1: the most experimental, was by far the best thing that
53:27
Speaker 1: they did. They feel like the significant achievements that they
53:31
Speaker 1: had were only when John Cale was in the group,
53:34
Speaker 1: and I think that's totally wrong myself. They can also
53:38
Speaker 1: dismiss Doug Yuell. He's just some guy that they got
53:40
Speaker 1: in who would listen to Lou Reid and he would
53:43
Speaker 1: play these quote normal rock songs, although they weren't very
53:46
Speaker 1: normal when you compare them to other things going on.
53:50
Speaker 1: But he bought a lot to the group, not just
53:52
Speaker 1: because he could make that different sound really effective. He
53:55
Speaker 1: could play several different instruments. He was a good backup
53:59
Speaker 1: vocalist sometimes when he took over the lead vocal like
54:02
Speaker 1: on Candy says it was really good contrast, and in
54:08
Speaker 1: a different way than Sterling Morrison and Marine Tucker. For
54:11
Speaker 1: a while, at least he helped be part of the
54:14
Speaker 1: glue that kept this explosive combination of musical and emotional
54:19
Speaker 1: personalities together because he was so competent but at the
54:23
Speaker 1: same time creative and was able to fit what the
54:28
Speaker 1: Velvets were doing into songs that were, as time proved,
54:32
Speaker 1: pretty accessible. And it's unfortunate that he sometimes dismissed, for instance,
54:36
Speaker 1: So though it doesn't seem to matter to him, when
54:38
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground were inducted into the Rock and Roll
54:41
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame in the mid nineties, he was not included.
54:43
Speaker 1: Neither was Nico, and he actually plays on as many
54:47
Speaker 1: studio recordings of the Velvets as John Klee did. And
54:51
Speaker 1: there are other groups in the Hall of Fame like
54:53
Speaker 1: Fleetwood Mac or Pink Floyd where there are members who
54:56
Speaker 1: are only in the group for a fraction of their
54:59
Speaker 1: life time. That's just one instance, But the more important
55:04
Speaker 1: thing is I don't feel that he's recognized as a
55:07
Speaker 1: significant contributor to the Velvet sound, and it wasn't a
55:12
Speaker 1: mission of mine to correct that, but I wanted to
55:14
Speaker 1: make sure that what I wrote in this long book
55:17
Speaker 1: gave him full credit for what he achieved with the
55:21
Speaker 1: other members of the group.
55:23
Speaker 2: For you personally, what would you say, Velvet Underground, It
55:26
Speaker 2: would be at the peak of their powers.
55:28
Speaker 1: Which album this is maybe different from others that people
55:31
Speaker 1: would select. I think their best studio album is definitely
55:35
Speaker 1: the Banana Album, their first album, which is their most
55:40
Speaker 1: popular record. But I think their absolute peak as a
55:45
Speaker 1: performing group is what was taped for the nineteen sixty
55:49
Speaker 1: nine live double album. Most of that was taped in
55:52
Speaker 1: late nineteen sixty nine in San Francisco, some of it
55:55
Speaker 1: was taped in Texas, also in late nineteen sixty nine,
55:59
Speaker 1: and it's just a great record from beginning to end.
56:03
Speaker 1: A lot of their best songs, some songs which hadn't
56:05
Speaker 1: been released when they were together. But something else that's
56:11
Speaker 1: interesting is that, especially if you compare it to the
56:14
Speaker 1: many recordings of them as a live act that they
56:16
Speaker 1: were in circulation, a lot of them haven't been released,
56:19
Speaker 1: and I discussed them in the book. There are few
56:23
Speaker 1: other groups from any point in rock history that would
56:27
Speaker 1: vary the songs they did from performance to performance. It
56:30
Speaker 1: wasn't like, these are the best fifteen songs. Let's do
56:34
Speaker 1: those fifteen songs during this tour, which is the way
56:37
Speaker 1: that a lot of acts go about it, and let's
56:39
Speaker 1: do them in this sequence. But also from performance to performance,
56:45
Speaker 1: they would make the songs themselves different. I'm Waiting for
56:48
Speaker 1: the Men on Late sixty nine, it's much different from
56:50
Speaker 1: the first album. It almost sounds like the slow train
56:53
Speaker 1: that builds momentum. Sweet Jane, as I mentioned when it
56:56
Speaker 1: was first performed in sixty nine, was a slow, more
57:01
Speaker 1: romantic ballad. I like the studio version, and I like
57:04
Speaker 1: the more standard rock versions too. But there was always
57:07
Speaker 1: a surprise I think when you saw the Velvet. I'm
57:10
Speaker 1: sorry I didn't get to see them at that point.
57:12
Speaker 1: I was seven years old, but it must have been
57:14
Speaker 1: a really good experience.
57:16
Speaker 2: Sure. So that live album that you're referring to, because
57:20
Speaker 2: even quite a few that have come out for people
57:23
Speaker 2: to look for, that one was that What year did
57:24
Speaker 2: that come out? There's one that came out in ninety three?
57:26
Speaker 2: Is that the one?
57:27
Speaker 1: No, the double live album that's just called nineteen sixty
57:31
Speaker 1: nine Velvet Underground Live, Gotcha Hour? Yeah, it was recorded
57:36
Speaker 1: in late sixty nine, but it came out in nineteen
57:38
Speaker 1: seventy four when Lou Reid had become pretty popular as
57:41
Speaker 1: a solo act. And even though it was issued to
57:44
Speaker 1: exploit Reed's solo sort of stardom, and there was even
57:49
Speaker 1: the billing has the Velvet Underground with Lou Reed, it
57:53
Speaker 1: was an entirely deserved release. Whether the motives were less
57:57
Speaker 1: exploit Lou read while people are listening to some of
58:00
Speaker 1: his records, and it was a great deal double album,
58:04
Speaker 1: about one hundred minutes of music, very well recorded for
58:09
Speaker 1: a live tape of that time, and showing the group
58:15
Speaker 1: at the peak of their instrumental and sinking powers.
58:18
Speaker 2: I think looking back at where Lou and John and
58:20
Speaker 2: Nico and the remaining members all found themselves after nineteen seventy,
58:24
Speaker 2: do you think Velvet Underground ended too soon or did
58:26
Speaker 2: their short lifespan actually help cement their legendary status.
58:30
Speaker 1: I don't think the short lifespan cemented it. Perhaps their
58:36
Speaker 1: relative obscurity did help, because when you discovered them, at
58:41
Speaker 1: least when I did the late seventies early nineteen eighties,
58:44
Speaker 1: you couldn't hear their records on the radio, or very
58:47
Speaker 1: few of them, especially if you were listening to public radio,
58:50
Speaker 1: and it almost felt like this is a discovery. Not
58:53
Speaker 1: many other people I know know about this, so this
58:56
Speaker 1: makes it even cooler. It's not like the Beatles great,
59:00
Speaker 1: but everybody's discovered them, and it's not too hard to
59:02
Speaker 1: learn about their music or the Rolling Stones or the
59:04
Speaker 1: Beach Boys. But it's sort of almost a secret pleasure
59:09
Speaker 1: that eventually was shared by tens of millions of people.
59:12
Speaker 1: But that wasn't happening in the seventies and even into
59:16
Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties. But looking back, it's hard. It's
59:21
Speaker 1: sort of like it is with many groups, including the Beatles.
59:24
Speaker 1: Although at the time, if I was a fan, I
59:26
Speaker 1: would have been really bummed out learning oh l Rei's
59:29
Speaker 1: left the group. I was really hoping that they would
59:32
Speaker 1: make a bunch more really good records. Looking back, it
59:35
Speaker 1: would have been pretty hard to keep that combination of
59:38
Speaker 1: personalities together and working well. Same thing with the Beatles,
59:42
Speaker 1: they worked phenomenally well for seven years, but there were
59:47
Speaker 1: too many interests pulling them apart. With the Velvets, I
59:51
Speaker 1: think it was especially the three most famous figureheads, certainly
59:55
Speaker 1: Reading Kale, but Nico developed into a significant talent as
59:59
Speaker 1: a solo artist, and fortunately John Cale was very involved
1:00:04
Speaker 1: in Nico's solo career almost throughout her solo career. In
1:00:08
Speaker 1: the book, I just want to mention quickly, the focus
1:00:12
Speaker 1: is on the Velvet Underground as a group, but I
1:00:14
Speaker 1: also mentioned the early I don't just mention I discussed
1:00:17
Speaker 1: in detail the early Kale and Nico records because those
1:00:21
Speaker 1: were happening at the same time as the Velvets were
1:00:24
Speaker 1: still working with Lou Reed, and they're really good records
1:00:27
Speaker 1: and they reflect some of what they had started to
1:00:30
Speaker 1: develop with a Velvet Underground.
1:00:35
Speaker 2: The book Down Rock podcast is part of the Boneless
1:00:37
Speaker 2: podcasting Network. If you're a fan of classic rock and
1:00:40
Speaker 2: classic film like I am, go to Boneless dot lovable
1:00:43
Speaker 2: dot app to find over twenty great shows there that's
1:00:47
Speaker 2: Boneless Downlovable dot app, or just go to bookdown rock
1:00:50
Speaker 2: dot com, the Boneless podcasting network. It is what you
1:00:54
Speaker 2: want to be listen with confidence. They never chased trend,
1:01:00
Speaker 2: They created their own path. Is that the band's greatest
1:01:04
Speaker 2: lesson for musicians today. If a new musician's coming out today,
1:01:08
Speaker 2: I think.
1:01:08
Speaker 1: Them creating their own path is a lesson. But I
1:01:12
Speaker 1: think it's also encouragement, although it's maybe not such consolation
1:01:18
Speaker 1: to groups that experience this sometimes. In my view, it
1:01:23
Speaker 1: takes a long time for really creative and individualistic music
1:01:30
Speaker 1: to find its full audience. You could say that of
1:01:33
Speaker 1: some other artists too, like Nick Drake, who only sold
1:01:36
Speaker 1: a few thousand records or so in his lifetime. He
1:01:38
Speaker 1: made three albums and then he died pretty young. But
1:01:41
Speaker 1: now there are several hundred thousand minimum Nick Drake fans
1:01:46
Speaker 1: with a Velvet Underground. Their cult just built and built
1:01:50
Speaker 1: until it's not really a cult anymore. I mentioned three
1:01:53
Speaker 1: million copies have been sold with their first album worldwide,
1:01:57
Speaker 1: that is. But also I think they have a multi
1:02:00
Speaker 1: generational appeal that some of the big and even sometimes
1:02:03
Speaker 1: really good groups that were their peers did not. Cretan's
1:02:08
Speaker 1: Clear Order Revival. They are a great group, they sold
1:02:11
Speaker 1: tons of records for like two or three years, but
1:02:14
Speaker 1: I don't think they have as avid a following among
1:02:19
Speaker 1: pretty young people as the Velvet Underground do, because the
1:02:25
Speaker 1: Velvet Underground's way of expressing themselves and their message maybe
1:02:30
Speaker 1: resonates more durably and more eternally. I don't want to
1:02:35
Speaker 1: pick on Cretens then, some other groups that were very
1:02:39
Speaker 1: good and very popular who were peers of the Velvet Underground.
1:02:42
Speaker 1: It also gives people not just encouragement to follow their
1:02:46
Speaker 1: own path, but to experiment and also to figure that
1:02:51
Speaker 1: if you have some interesting ideas, you don't have to
1:02:53
Speaker 1: be the most technically proficient musicians at least to begin
1:02:57
Speaker 1: with to record and express them. Is the creativity and
1:03:01
Speaker 1: the content that matters more than whether you can play
1:03:04
Speaker 1: as well as somebody else.
1:03:06
Speaker 2: Do what you fear most. The history of the Velvet
1:03:08
Speaker 2: Underground out now. Find out wherever books are sold. Look
1:03:11
Speaker 2: forward at your nearest bookstore. If you want to find
1:03:13
Speaker 2: your nearest independent bookstore, go to Bookdowrock dot com. Richie,
1:03:16
Speaker 2: can people find you online?
1:03:18
Speaker 1: Yes? My website is Richie Unterberger dot com my name
1:03:23
Speaker 1: with a dot com at the end, and it's rather basic,
1:03:28
Speaker 1: but it has information about my books and some of
1:03:31
Speaker 1: the events that I do. I'm in the Bay Area
1:03:34
Speaker 1: in San Francisco, so not everybody, of course, can come
1:03:37
Speaker 1: to the live events, but some of them are on zoom.
1:03:40
Speaker 1: Some of them are even free, so those events are
1:03:44
Speaker 1: listed there and people can check them out if they want.
1:03:46
Speaker 2: Well, thanks for coming back on This is a fascinating
1:03:49
Speaker 2: conversation about an absolutely phenomenal band, so thank you in
1:03:53
Speaker 2: the book is absolutely fascinating as well, so for those
1:03:56
Speaker 2: who are fans, it's a muster read.
1:03:58
Speaker 1: Thank you, Richie, thanks for having me on. Eric h.
1:04:03
Speaker 2: M hm.
1:04:06
Speaker 1: That's it.
1:04:07
Speaker 2: It's in the books. M hm.