Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 30: I Wish My Partner Had a Softer Approach

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30: I Wish My Partner Had a Softer Approach · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

0:00
Hey y'all, I'm glad you're here and I had a question for you.
0:04
So have you ever wondered why your partner doesn't approach
0:11
you in a more soft, kind way? Because if she did, then maybe
0:16
this would work a little bit better than coming at you maybe
0:19
directly and feeling so intense about her approach.
0:22
You ever wonder why she doesn't just show up more soft and see
0:25
that? That's what we're going to talk
0:27
about today. Welcome to Beyond the Facade
0:32
podcast. I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and
0:35
I'm thrilled to have you join me in the space today.
0:37
What we're going to be doing is diving deep into the trials and
0:39
triumphs and truths of seeking authenticity.
0:42
Becoming your true self isn't about a single action or a
0:45
moment. It's a relentless pursuit, a
0:48
commitment to self that reveals the rich connection and meaning
0:51
that our life has to offer. So whether this is your first
0:53
time tuning in or you're a regular listener, know this.
0:57
What you're building here goes beyond a conversation.
1:00
You're here to challenge, to change, and to celebrate the
1:02
incredible journey of becoming your authentic self.
1:05
Because when you dare to show up fully, the rewards are
1:08
immeasurable. So welcome to Beyond the Facade.
1:11
Let's get started, Hallie, welcome to Beyond the Facade
1:15
podcast. I'm really excited to have you.
1:17
Here. Thank you.
1:19
Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
1:21
I've known Hallie a very long time.
1:23
I don't know what I guess it relatively long time and I had a
1:27
chance to be around her a lot of respect for the work that you do
1:31
Hallie you for those of you who don't know Hallie, she leads our
1:36
helper heal groups that choose recovery services and from the
1:39
feedback that I get from men is she can see both sides.
1:42
It's nice to be able to talk to somebody that's been through and
1:45
experienced betrayal trauma, but also understanding what the
1:47
person seeking recovery a little bit of what their experiences
1:52
like to and could be validating. Hallie, anything you want people
1:54
to know about you before we start to dig into some of this
1:56
content? Not really, I think they can.
1:59
If you want to know more, you can find my bio on the choose
2:02
team page. And if you want to check out my
2:05
other podcast or my podcast, I host with one of our other
2:08
choose calling Stephanie Hamby. We Co host the Choosing to Stay
2:13
after Infidelity and Betrayal podcast and join us over there
2:16
if you want more. Our target audience is couples
2:18
who are working through recovery because we know even if you
2:22
choose to stay, it doesn't mean it's easy.
2:24
So I can talk about topics like. Does not mean you've been doing
2:28
that for a bit now, haven't you? Yeah, I think we're almost 80
2:32
episodes now, a little over a year.
2:34
We do a celebration for 100. I don't know I I would have to
2:38
think about that, but we should. Good stuff.
2:42
Yeah, thank you for being here. OK, so the topic we have set us
2:47
up for. So you lead the helper heal
2:49
group and there's this reoccurring theme that can show
2:54
up. And do you mind setting us up
2:56
with it, Hallie? Yeah.
2:59
So I not only see this in my helper heal groups, which I love
3:02
the helper heal groups. I love working with the the guys
3:06
who are really working hard to rebuild trust and create safety.
3:10
And I hear it there, but I also see it in some of my couples
3:14
coaching sessions or even from the betrayed partners who say he
3:17
thinks I'm attacking him. That's not what I'm doing.
3:20
And so the dynamic is that when, and I hate to talk in like
3:28
gender specifics, but just for the ease of conversation, we're
3:31
going to go with the betrayed partners, the wife and the the
3:34
one who's working to rebuild trust.
3:36
Is the husband OK for ease of conversation?
3:39
But when she is maybe has a concern, she might be activated
3:44
by something, She might be having a lot of strong emotions
3:48
and she comes to him with either she needs some clarification or
3:53
she has some hurt, she has some pain that she wants to express.
3:58
I often hear from the guys that she's coming at me, she's
4:02
attacking me. I don't know why she gets so
4:05
aggressive. And what I have come to
4:09
understand is that it feels like an attack and I suspect that
4:14
it's triggering some shame underneath there.
4:17
And so they tend to go to defensive mode or they shut down
4:21
or they withdraw, which actually contributes to more pain that
4:26
she's experiencing. And then the cycle just
4:28
continues to grow and the emotions get bigger.
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And usually there's not nothing productive that comes out of
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that. And so I also want to just say
4:38
that both of those betrayed partners, husband wise, we're
4:42
all 100% responsible for our own behaviors, our own words, our
4:46
own actions. And when you're activated, we
4:51
all know we're in our emotional brain, not in our logical brain.
4:53
And so sometimes we don't show up in a healthy way.
4:56
And when we both get activated in the middle of that, there's
4:59
not a lot of healthy going on. So I just want to, I was
5:04
interested in talking about this with you today, Luke, so we can
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shed some light and some understanding about what goes on
5:11
for both parties and maybe walk away with some more
5:14
understanding of how to step out of that cycle.
5:17
Yeah, I, I'm thinking about conversation.
5:20
I had one time with a guy and he said he was, there was something
5:26
intense going on in their lives and he was doing his best to
5:31
figure it out and he had to like, fix something or do
5:35
something. And he felt like she had
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something critical to say about that, that they'd had a history
5:41
of him hearing her say, you're, you're not doing that the right
5:45
way or you should know how to do this already.
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Or at least that's what he felt. And immediately, his response
5:54
was anger. And he was able to identify with
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that response and anger that was born in his family of origin,
6:02
like that response of anger. And he was able to acknowledge
6:05
that anger was effective. And he didn't say it that way.
6:10
He didn't go like, hey, Luke, I'm going to brag to you about
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my effective way of handling this conflict, which is anger.
6:16
He actually hated the anger piece that would show up for
6:19
him. And he wanted to destroy that
6:22
anger piece. And then we identified, hey,
6:25
where does anger come from for you?
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And we're not going to talk about this part, but just if
6:30
you're wondering, he identified like, well, it works.
6:34
And ultimately I view her saying you're incompetent.
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And if I can get rid of her feeling that I'm uncompetent,
6:43
then she's accepting of me if that's not there.
6:47
And I really value this relationship.
6:49
So his anger was showing up to like be helpful.
6:52
He couldn't see that. He just saw that I need to get
6:54
rid of my anger. I need to start, I need to start
6:56
being not angry when she tells me when she's saying this way.
7:01
Anyway, that's not what we're talking about but it sets it up
7:03
at least for the experience of he would he had a lensy look
7:08
through when she used words. Now I'd place a decent amount of
7:14
money on from knowing the man that his wife views him as very
7:22
competent and I don't know if a lot of people stay in
7:25
relationships with people that are just like this is a
7:28
completely incompetent person right?
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He for some reason, his lens that he was looking through the
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experience was not showing him like actually what she was
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experiencing in that moment in her communicating with him.
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It was distorted. That's not surprising to him.
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He he can see that on his good in his good moment.
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And yeah, like Hallie, I think about that lens and what she's
7:52
looking through. And I'm like, it's easiest for,
7:55
say, on this podcast, but what is if we could actually see
8:01
reality in that moment, it would change everything for us.
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And this is the reality. I'd love to hear what you think
8:07
about this Hallie, which is I heard somebody say one time when
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she shows up with her trigger and her emotional response,
8:17
whether in reality is big or whatever it is, that is her
8:22
vulnerable attempt to connect with me.
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That is her vulnerable attempt to move and and actually be
8:31
relational to desire that connection.
8:34
I don't know. What do you think about that,
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Hallie? I think you're 100% spot on.
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I think that when she's activated around something, what
8:44
she's seeking is safety and security.
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And so she's coming to you and if she's have a has a lot of
8:51
strong emotion around it, she's in an activated state.
8:54
What she's really looking for is for connection.
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And this is one of the things in our empathy work in the help her
9:01
heal group, is that if he can step into that space of empathy,
9:06
and I also validate that I know that's not easy to do because
9:09
when she's activated, oftentimes it's it makes sense why they're
9:13
activated. But if he can work to stay
9:16
grounded and he can do a move toward her instead of a runaway
9:21
or a shutdown or a get big, actually, you can help Co
9:25
regulate. Cause what she's looking for,
9:27
it's safety and security and connection and she wants to be
9:30
heard. The one thing that I think is
9:33
important is that there's probably not anything you can do
9:36
to solve the pain or the problem.
9:39
Whatever the challenge is, she's not most of the time not looking
9:43
for a solution. So she doesn't need you to fix
9:46
it. She doesn't need you to step in
9:49
and try to make it go away. She needs you to hear her.
9:53
She needs you to validate her pain and to create some sort of
9:58
safety and security around it, which then will lead you to
10:02
connection. And often times you'll see it
10:05
like just it'll just shut down, it'll Co regulate.
10:09
It'll help her come back to grounded if she knows that she's
10:13
been seen and she's been heard. Because if she's not seen and
10:16
she's not heard, that feels like a threat to her.
10:20
It feels like a threat to her safety and security.
10:23
If you can't see and understand her, then what does that mean
10:28
for the relationship and what does that mean for her safety
10:30
and security? I love that so much.
10:34
And I'm thinking about those who are listening, if we're going to
10:39
go that traditional, the man being the person that the
10:41
betraying as he's listening to this, him going like, yeah,
10:45
she's telling me specifically something that she needs me to
10:48
take action on. She is showing up in my world
10:51
saying, hey, do it better. That's what he's hearing.
10:55
I'm not saying that's what she's saying.
10:56
That's what I was hearing. You did it wrong.
10:59
Like it might feel like it's all about like something that she's
11:04
trying to, you know, need you to be different or whatever it is.
11:09
What's so interesting is I love that Hollywood, you show up and
11:12
you just really seek to understand, set all your stuff
11:15
to the side. Be a partner with her in that
11:19
experience going tell me what you're seeing.
11:21
Help me understand it feels, and I guess Hallie, I haven't been
11:26
betrayed, so I just if you could speak to this would be great
11:30
like that. There, there's it feels
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different for her once she's actually heard than it does
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before. She's not even validated or
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heard. 100% it literally is a physical shit.
11:44
So or she's felt big and tense and I don't know all the things
11:50
that you feel when you're in an activated state.
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It literally is a physical shift when she feels seen and heard
11:56
and understood. And another thing along those
11:59
lines is I've been in sessions with couples where they both are
12:04
in the same experience and they have totally different.
12:07
They would describe it totally differently.
12:09
Isn't what she said, that's not what he said, That's not how.
12:11
And so this is where that seeking to understand, I think
12:14
it's so important is that we can both be in the same room and
12:18
have the same going through the same thing.
12:20
But your perception of an interaction or even the way you
12:24
hear it, like you said, can be totally different.
12:27
So slowing things down and instead of getting big, trying
12:32
to regulate and move toward instead of move away changes
12:37
everything for that dynamic. Yeah, a couple of things, 'cause
12:40
you use the words slow or and I wanted to let's slow it down
12:44
like slow that it's might almost just be painfully slow.
12:50
First of all, it's identify one thing.
12:53
If we talk about aggression, let's recognize the difference
12:56
between physical and verbal aggression and how you brought
13:00
this up earlier when we were talking, but there's a
13:03
difference between the two. So that verbal aggression based
13:09
upon all of my experiences of my family of origin, because that
13:13
lens I look through, it might not be reality.
13:15
Like I swear my partner's yelling at me, but if I play it
13:18
back and I get the camera out, not saying you should record
13:21
stuff and do this. I just not, I did not encourage
13:23
you to record the conversation. But if you actually did and some
13:27
of you that like it's not, it's just going through that lens.
13:31
But if there is physical aggression, that's different,
13:34
that's way different than the verbal because the verbal
13:37
aggression really is about her speaking and it might get louder
13:42
over time. It's about her being desiring
13:45
the relationship, going after it.
13:46
But anyway, any thoughts on that Hallie?
13:49
Yeah, no, I think you're, it's really important that we
13:53
differentiate between the physical and verbal aggression
13:55
because physical aggression is never OK.
13:58
It's never OK. And then also some of the work I
14:01
do with betrayed partners is communicating in a more healthy
14:06
way that does remove criticism and accusations and things like
14:12
that. So early on in a betrayed
14:14
partners journey, it's super hard because they're in so much
14:18
pain to control that. And so sometimes does come out
14:23
as criticism and accusation. And that's the betrayed partners
14:26
work is to get to a place where they can have some internal
14:30
psychological boundaries of their own, where they learn how
14:34
to express what they're feeling from a lensa when this happens,
14:40
this is how I feel instead of you did and you did that and you
14:43
did this. But what I have seen and
14:45
witnessed even in couple sessions is that she can do that
14:48
and say that and it is still sometimes perceived as an attack
14:52
or criticize them, which I where I suspect there's shame getting
14:57
triggered underneath that because of what you're referring
14:59
to, the lens that they see the world through that's getting
15:02
bumped up against. And another thing that you
15:05
talked about that I think is important for both spouses to
15:08
know is like our body language and our tone of voice is huge in
15:14
all of this stuff. Because you can say the same
15:18
words with a different tone of voice or a different posture and
15:23
it comes across in in a totally different meaning.
15:26
Because I've seen it where like guys will say, I know, I know
15:30
I've hurt you and I'm really sorry.
15:31
I'm sorry that I did that. And that is a totally different
15:35
message than says than if you say it from a softer standpoint,
15:38
that says I know, I can see your pain and I know that the things
15:42
that I've done contributed to this pain and I am so sorry.
15:46
That is different, totally different message, same words.
15:50
And so I think we have to pay attention to that as well.
15:53
I got a question for you. So a lot of times I notice with
15:58
the experiences is he cares and he worries that what comes out
16:03
of his mouth is going to sound like a script.
16:05
And so can we talk about the difference between the guy
16:09
that's like working that's worried about the script
16:12
compared to the one that you said?
16:15
I don't know. Can you speak to that at all?
16:18
This is how I this is how I talk about it because the guys in my
16:21
helper Hill group say my wife just tells me I'm just
16:24
regurgitating what hell he says. And then I'm just therapizing
16:27
everything. And, and I look at it like, if
16:30
you have never been modeled or you didn't know the language of
16:33
empathy, it's like learning a foreign language.
16:36
And so if you were learning a foreign language and you went to
16:39
another country and you started trying to speak it, you would be
16:42
regurgitating it in a memorized way.
16:45
And you would be hoping that you said the right thing.
16:48
And you might say something that comes out and it's a totally
16:50
different meaning. But you, you what you said was
16:54
what you thought. And so I encourage the guys to
16:57
just keep pushing through that until the language of empathy
17:01
becomes more natural. And I think it will as they
17:04
organically seek to understand their way.
17:07
I think empathy is a skill that can be developed.
17:11
And so as they grow in their ability to have empathy, the
17:15
words come out and feel more sincere.
17:19
But early on they're just learning like they don't even
17:22
know the words to say that even sound empathetic.
17:25
And so I understand the frustration of that from most
17:31
betrayed partners standpoint. And at the same time, I think we
17:35
need to give some grace for them attempting to learn how to show
17:39
up in empathy. And overtime I believe it
17:42
becomes more sincere. I don't know what are your
17:44
thoughts about it. Yeah.
17:45
And those of you who are like wanting all the sudden to take
17:49
Halle snippet right there and go tell it to your partner says,
17:52
hey, can you give me some grace? Just recognize where that comes
17:54
from, of how heavy it is, but also that it's, I don't have the
18:00
capacity to be present in there. And I'd be really nice to just
18:03
have some grace. So there's two pieces that come
18:08
up for me on this one which is the script that I'm using that
18:13
I'm feeling scripted. I'm like, is this authentic?
18:16
But I'm trying versus the other one, which is can you say it
18:21
again the one that you gave as an example?
18:24
I I said something along the lines of, yeah, I know, I know
18:28
you're in pain and I know that I hurt you and I'm so sorry that I
18:31
did that. The aggression is the tone of
18:35
weights is send a totally different message.
18:38
So if that doesn't make any sense, I'll have you like look
18:40
at it. Not the way you explain it
18:43
doesn't make any sense to Hallie, but more of the if the
18:46
concept still feels like fuzzy, I don't know what I'm doing.
18:49
Take a step back and go, what is my motivation?
18:53
What are my motives? If my motivation and motives are
18:56
to hurry the conversation up or get through the conflict to meet
19:01
the end goal, which is her feeling better when her not
19:05
being activated, then recognizing that's that that
19:09
part of. But if it's really out of
19:14
values, but more out of, yeah, take the space that you need to
19:21
share what you're experiencing. That will clear some of that
19:24
stuff up. And if your partner goes to you,
19:27
and if your partner says to you that feels like Hallie saying
19:32
that it's OK for you to come back to, those are my values.
19:38
I do really feel that. But that doesn't need to be
19:40
communicated to her. It's OK for her to question your
19:44
motives, I think, right? And to deal with the emotions
19:49
that come from that. Yeah.
19:51
And the other thing that makes me think of is, and this was a
19:53
recent conversation in my helper hill group, is that sometimes
19:57
men come into my helper Hill group because they think if I
20:01
can just figure out for her to get better, then we'll be
20:03
better. And that only will get you so
20:07
far if it's not sincere. And so really, the best thing
20:11
you can do to help your wife feel safe is to actually do your
20:15
work. And be sincere about it because
20:19
she's got elevated senses now after being betrayed.
20:24
She's on high alert and she is really good at sensing whether
20:28
or not it's sincere or whether or not you're just trying to
20:31
shut her up, for lack of better words.
20:33
Like I'm just trying to, as long as you get better, then we're
20:36
fine. I don't need to do anything
20:37
because I'm not going to do that again.
20:39
And the best thing you can do is actually do your work and be
20:43
sincere and step into that place of true recovery, and then the
20:47
empathy will come more natural for you.
20:50
Yeah, absolutely. So there's a part here that's
20:56
just highlight like why does she show up with my trigger?
20:59
Why does she cope with her trigger and then show it in a
21:02
way that's not like super soft and gentle or why does she share
21:06
information this way? Because she's valuing the
21:08
relationship. Why does he shut down or why
21:12
does he get aggressive in response?
21:15
Because it's usually one of those two things.
21:17
When it's not healthy, it's he gets aggressive in response or
21:22
he shuts down and walls off in response.
21:25
And both of those are because he wants and values the
21:27
relationship. So both you got two people there
21:31
that are valuing the relationship that are showing up
21:36
that way. So I want my responsibility to
21:39
lie with being able to stay inside my window of tolerance,
21:45
to be able to actually be aware of what my partner's
21:47
experiencing compared to my natural response of fight or
21:52
freeze. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:56
Good stuff. Yeah, for sure.
21:58
What's? The thing is, we have two, we
22:00
have two people who in, if you're really seeking recovery
22:05
and you're wanting to choose to stay, you're wanting relational
22:09
work. And so we have to do our
22:11
individual work so that we can move toward these challenging
22:14
conversations and interactions instead of just hoping that they
22:18
go away or that they stop happening.
22:22
Yeah. What it when you say hoping go
22:24
away, what do you notice when you what is happening?
22:27
When you notice people are hoping they go away, what are
22:30
they doing? They, what I see with the
22:34
couples that that I work with is the husband is showing up maybe
22:38
to couples coaching sessions or therapy session.
22:41
Maybe he might be coming to my help or healer another group and
22:44
he's checking the boxes. But he's not actually doing the
22:47
work, just trying to do things so that she will feel better
22:50
that he's doing work. He's not actually doing the
22:52
work. And that's what I see of just
22:55
OK, I'm doing these things so that she'll be OK.
22:57
And then as soon as she's OK, we'll get back to our normal
23:00
life and we'll move on and we'll get over the.
23:02
And that's what I see when they're just hoping that it'll
23:05
go away, is that either they aren't doing any work at all or
23:09
they're showing up, but they're not.
23:10
And they're checking the box of attending things, but they're
23:12
not actually applying the things that that are being taught or
23:16
learning, they're learning. What you said, when they're
23:19
doing the work, what's something that comes to mind with actually
23:22
doing the work compared to checking a box and attending a
23:26
group or coming to a one-on-one session?
23:29
I think the biggest thing is changed behaviors and
23:33
willingness to be vulnerable and willingness to be transparent
23:37
and even sharing some of their insights from their work and
23:41
saying I learned this about myself and this is what it means
23:44
to me and I'm recognizing this. And then they're doing the work
23:48
to step out of those behaviors. But to me, that's what showing
23:51
up and doing the work is. And then that empathy comes more
23:54
naturally when they're doing that work for the pain of their
23:57
betrayed partner. Love that, love that, you know,
24:01
just highlighting we have men that enter choose recovery
24:07
services because there's a podcast or something and they
24:12
the first thing they're interested in is like help or
24:14
heal and that's the only thing they're interested in.
24:19
And I kind of like want to stop and go, what do you to the all
24:23
the people listening are like, where do you think I'm going
24:26
next? Or what do you think about that?
24:28
And, and I, I just think about that journey, I can't be present
24:33
with my partner until I've done my own work, until I've learned
24:36
to regulate within myself. So helper heal is amazing place
24:41
if I've done my own work to be in that situation.
24:45
But if my only motivation is to calm down the relationship, if I
24:49
don't have the tools within myself to do that, I'll never be
24:52
able to do that work. So Yep, I often I encourage the
24:59
guy who's in the helper Heal group to make sure they're
25:01
either going to choose 90 or choose 180 or they have their
25:04
individual coach or therapist that they're doing that.
25:07
And we do some of that work in Helper Heal as well, because
25:10
part of it is doing your own work.
25:12
So we talk a lot about regulating yourself and knowing
25:15
your emotions and things like that.
25:17
But I'm always encouraging them to have some recovery work,
25:21
whether that be individual or a recovery group, because that's
25:26
it's different. Individual work is different
25:28
than relational work. And Helper Heal is focused on
25:32
helping you understand what your betrayed partner might be
25:35
experiencing and then how you can show up in a more empathetic
25:39
way. Yeah.
25:41
And my relationship with my partner is an opportunity for me
25:47
to reflect on myself and how I respond.
25:49
So if I sit there, because that's the greatest danger, the
25:53
greatest threat is abandonment as I see it at the most intimate
25:57
level, like what relationship I'm most scared of.
26:00
If that's my, which it usually is, my romantic attachment, that
26:04
means that's where it's going to carry the most emotional
26:06
volatility, which is going to give me all of the experiences
26:11
that I need to measure and weigh where I'm at in my own journey.
26:15
And yeah, I noticed that the people that are doing the work
26:19
are really, I'm speaking to the person that did the betraying.
26:23
Those people are really seeking to understand why the trigger
26:27
exists or what's happening inside of them, why their own
26:31
triggers happening and not making it about their partner is
26:34
the problem. So.
26:37
Yeah, I love that. So we showed up here talking
26:40
about why isn't she softer? Like why?
26:43
If she was just softer, it would be a lot easier for me to
26:46
navigate and be relational. And it's all the paradigm that I
26:50
look through. It's all the lens and if I, if
26:53
that looks different and I view her trigger and her approach as
26:58
fighting for the relationship is searching to be relational, that
27:02
can really flip things and understanding why I'm showing up
27:05
the way that I'm showing up. It's not about her soft
27:09
approach. It's not about how she
27:10
approaches it, what comes up inside of me and how I view it
27:13
in the lens that I look through. Hallie, do you have any like
27:17
messages to share before we wrap this thing out the.
27:19
Message that I like to consistently give is that
27:22
healing is possible. It's not easy, but it is
27:26
possible when you have two people who are willing to put in
27:29
the work and the effort. And what I witnessed myself and
27:33
with many couples is that you can actually have a deeper, more
27:38
connected relationship than probably you even had before
27:41
because you didn't know what you didn't have before.
27:44
And going through this kind of forces you to have to learn how
27:49
to deal with conflict in a different way, how to understand
27:52
each other in a different way, and to grow individually and
27:56
relationally. I guess my biggest message is
27:58
that it's worth it. It's worth getting the support.
28:01
It's worth getting the hope. And I think that's why we are
28:04
even here, Luke, because you and I both believe in that, have
28:07
witnessed it and experienced it. And so I just encourage people
28:10
to reach out and get the support that you need and don't give up
28:14
hope. Yeah, absolutely.
28:17
Hallie, thank you so much for being here.
28:20
Yeah. Thank you.
28:23
Hey, thanks for joining us today.
28:24
If this is something that you connected with, I'd love to meet
28:27
with you more and talk about it. So what you can do is go to
28:30
chooserecoveryservices.com or check the show notes and there
28:34
what we can do is set up a quick conversation.
28:36
Thanks so much for listening to Beyond the Facade where we
28:39
unmask the authentic self.