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TMG: Tully Smyth's C-Section Complex · Outspoken the Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Mums Group you actually want to be
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: a part of. I'm Amy Torber and I'm joined by
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: my sisters and journalists, Kate and Sophie. And we are
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: coming off a big high over the weekend because we
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: finally got our child-free shopping trip in. Yeah, we took
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: some advice off Elle Swift. We discussed her on last
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: week's episode, how she was feeling on top of the world.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: after a kid's free shopping trip. And I echo her sentiments.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I felt pretty good after it.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you just need that. I broke our first rule though,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: which was only shopping for us. We weren't meant to
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: buy anything for our sons. I bought Harry a couple
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: of books. It's funny because just walking into the shopping center,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: I felt so light. Like we all actually ended up
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: parking near each other at the same time. I was
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: on the phone to Kate and she's like, oh, hold on,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: we've got to get all our crap out of the car.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: And then we're like, Hold on a second. We don't
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: have to bring our prams. We don't have to bring anything,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: just ourselves. Oh, it's so good. I actually tried clothes on. Oh,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Kate and I have been wanting to get the flared
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: tights and we actually went into the store and tried
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: them on and I don't know how I feel about them.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: You've ended up purchasing them. I feel like I look
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: like a bit of an idiot.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: No, you don't.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, don't say that. I don't need that negativity. I
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: already warned my husband. I said, you're going to pay
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: me out when these arrive. But I've got the flared tights.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: And then I dropped that they were chocolate brown. He's like, oh,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: chocolate brown. Like, who are you? A bit of chocolate brown.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: I love the term chocolate brown, though. Can you imagine
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: your husband coming home and being like, oh, I've bought
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: a chocolate brown jumper. Well, it's the color of the season, apparently.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Everything I have bought recently is brown. I don't know
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: if you've noticed. But chocolate brown makes it sound better,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: doesn't it?
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: It does.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: It makes it sound more... Not like poo brown. The
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: thing is, it's very in, but I think it does
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: nothing for my complexion, yet I still bought it. Saw
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: that there's... Also, instead of the flared, you can get
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: a wide length legging. I'm tossing up with that. Maybe
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: it's because my husband has paid these tights out so
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: much that I'm feeling so extra self-conscious about it. Well,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: the week I've had, I really needed that shopping trip
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: because I have felt like shit for the whole week.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I actually thought, oh my God, am I getting sick?
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Then I thought, oh no, it must be my iron
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: running out because I had an iron infusion earlier this year.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: Now I'm thinking it was due to Pepsi Max withdrawals.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: So I've given it up. That makes me nervous because
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: I saw this expert talking over the weekend about how
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: diet soft drinks are like a bullet to your head
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: or something in terms of dementia risk. And that's made
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: me really nervous because a fridge ciggy, aka my Coke
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: No Sugar, has been my vice during this postpartum time.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: And I feel like I've got to give them up.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: But you saying that you've been feeling even worse makes
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: me reluctant to do it. Yeah, but I mean, it
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: was a week of feeling average. And that generally is
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: how you feel when you've got caffeine withdrawal. So hang on,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: were you having the, because I drink non-caffeine. Coke Zero.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: I have caffeine once. That's why I love it because
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: I need that pick me up in the day. So
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: we cut you some slack and let you have a
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: bit of a rest this week from the podcast. One afternoon.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: And it's because you were addicted to Pepsi Max. Well,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: anyone else who's gone through caffeine withdrawals, you will know
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: how tiring it is. I'm getting my bloods checked. So
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: we'll have a definite answer shortly. I remember seeing this journal.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: I think it was for the Tizer, write an article
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: about how proud she was that she gave up. Coke,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: no sugar for, I think it was a couple of
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: weeks and the comment section of all the boomers were like,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, good on you. Oh, as if that's difficult.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: And I thought, actually, I think it would be quite difficult.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: So I have to let people know next week how
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: I'm traveling.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: If I was a baby with no responsibilities, no bills,
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: I don't have no family to take care of.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: I just simply would not get up at 5.45 in
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: the morning. I'm just not going to do that.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: It makes no sense.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Nowhere logically would that make sense to wake up at
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: 5.45 in the morning. influencer Tully Smythe has opened up
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: about the underlying sense of shame she felt for having
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: an elective cesarean. Initially, when the former Big Brother housemate
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: gave birth to her first child Elkie at the end
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: of June, she said she wouldn't be sharing her birth story. However,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: a few weeks later, she generously opened up about her
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: birth in a Substack article called the C-Section Complex. Now,
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: This topic feels really close to home for all three
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: of us, because as we mentioned on the podcast, we
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: all had elective cesareans.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: And I very much related a lot to what Tully
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: wrote about, especially the bit about feeling like she needed
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: to justify her decision to others. So she wrote, whenever
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: someone asked about my birth plan, I found myself immediately
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: launching into an explanation. I'm having an elective C-section because,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: then I'd list my reasons, almost like I was pleading
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: my case before anyone had even put me on trial.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: She went on to add that no one was asking
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: her to justify it. Well, not out loud, at least.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: I literally felt the exact same way. I really had
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: to hype myself up, particularly when speaking to older women
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: about it. I felt like there was a lot of
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: judgment from them and sort of questions of why wouldn't
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: you want to try the, in quotations, natural way first.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: I also felt like there was a lot of pressure
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: going into appointments with midwives and doctors before giving birth
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: because they'd always mentioned to me like, oh, but you know,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: he's not that big or would you like to try?
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Even though I had specifically said, I want a cesarean. Yeah.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: You felt like you were being talked out of it.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, I can kind of understand that more from
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: a medical perspective. They're trying to make sure that, you know,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: the risks that are involved. But when it comes to
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: people in your life, I mean, I remember someone questioning
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: whether I deserved a push present or not because I
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: was having a cesarean. That's just ridiculous. I may not
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: have pushed, but I did have major abdominal surgery. There
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: were seven layers of tissue cut. And you also carried
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: a baby. for 10 months and were awake during said
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: surgery and had six weeks of recovery. Yeah. And when
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: most people have major surgery, they rest for a week
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: and they are absolutely showered with love and care. But
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: when it's a cesarean, None of that happens. You're literally
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: handed a baby and told to get on with it.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: I think it has a lot to do though with,
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: especially during our parents' era, there was that notion of
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: too posh to push. And I think a lot of
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: people have that in their heads. It's like, no, this
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: is a really natural experience, but not everyone wants to
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: birth their child in that way. Well, that phrase started
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: in 1999 off the back of Victoria Beckham having a
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: cesarean when she gave birth to her son, Brooklyn. And
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: as you said, she was labelled too posh to push,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: obviously a play on the fact that she was posh spice.
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: Really?
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that it came from her. That's wild.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: And Kate Middleton, she was so concerned about being given
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: this tag that she made this conceited effort to have
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: a vaginal birth. And it's crazy to think that women
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: are being pressured to not reflect on what's best for them,
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: but to consider how their decision may be viewed by
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: other people. The thing about Victoria Beckham's story is that
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: she tried to give birth vaginally and she had to
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: have an emergency caesarean. So it's not that she was
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: too posh to push, it was that the baby had
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: to come out safely and that's how it came out.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: The thing is, I have respect for whichever way women
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: choose to give birth. It is a personal choice at
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, but I don't think that
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: there should be any judgment if someone wants to have
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: an elective C-section. I remember when I spoke to my
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: doctor about it for the first time. And as the
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: protocol is, she had to run me through all of
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: the risks associated with having a C-section. And I followed
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: up by saying, do you also read out all of
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: the risks of having a vaginal birth? And she said, well, yeah,
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: there are just as many risks having a vaginal birth,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: but we don't read them out because it is deemed
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: the natural way and this is a choice that you're making.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: But it just blew my mind that both weren't being given.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: To be fair though, when you do a birth class,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: they go into all of the risks and the different
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: ways that a baby could enter the world if it
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: doesn't all go to plan. But I do think a
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: big part of where this judgment comes is because, as
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: you touched on, society considers vaginal birth as the most
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: natural thing a woman can do. And there's nothing society
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: dislikes more than women who aren't natural. One of the
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: reasons I decided to have a C-section was because I
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: felt like I knew my body really well. And I
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: hear a lot of mums saying that who want to
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: give birth vaginally. They say, you know, I know my body.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: I know what it can do. In my instance, I
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: knew that Harry was going to be quite a large
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: baby and I had heard so many stories from friends
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: who had gone and tried to give birth vaginally and
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: then were taken to have an emergency C-section and they
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: all said, I thought that was going to happen. And
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I had this sense that that would happen to me
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: and I didn't want to put my baby at risk.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to have to go through 40 hours
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: of labor to then just have a C-section anyway. It's
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: interesting though, Amy, because what you're doing there is still
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: providing reasons and justifications. You actually don't have to justify it.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: But I feel like we haven't really progressed that far
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: in the last 27 years since Victoria Beckham was called
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: too posh to push because a similar scenario happened with
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Laura Henshaw just late last year. So she opened up
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: on her podcast and also on social media about how
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: she had decided to book in an elective cesarean. Now,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: this decision was supported by her doctor. It was what
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: she thought was best for her. However, her followers didn't
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: think it was best for her. Or some random men
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: on TikTok.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: So there were calls for her to inform her audience
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: of the risks associated with the procedure. People were also
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: pressuring her to change her mind. Bear in mind, these
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: are all strangers who literally have nothing to do with
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: her or her baby. They're never going to meet her.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: But they felt it was their need to judge her.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: That's what I found so fascinating is I would literally
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: say to someone, oh, this is my decision. I'm having
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: an elective C-section. And they would try to convince you. Otherwise,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: they'd be like, well, don't you want to just try?
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: No.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: And you're like, no, it's actually the furthest thing that
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: I want to do. I've made my decision. I feel
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: like Tully Smythe really hit the nail on the head
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: in her article when she wrote about how there is
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: this invisible hierarchy of birth. So she said it goes vaginal,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: emergency cesarean and elective cesarean. Now I would like to
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: add a few extra layers. I think unmedicated vaginal birth
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: sits at the top, followed by medicated vaginal birth and
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: then emergency cesarean and then elective. I don't know if
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: I'm just naive, but going into giving birth, I didn't
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: even realize there was such a snobbery around whether you
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: have medication. Yeah, like medication. And it's funny because I
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: saw this quote the other day and it was basically saying,
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: you don't get a trophy for how you give birth.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: And Tully is 100% right. There is this hidden hierarchy
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: or this snobbery around which route you choose. I definitely
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: think there's a correlation between this hierarchy and the influx
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: of birth content that we're being exposed to online because
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: you've got podcasts dedicated to to women sharing their birth stories.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: You've got influencers vlogging their births and also just regular
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: people opening up about their experiences. And of course, all
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: of this content is really beneficial. It's great that there's
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: that information out there. But the downside is people are
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: now comparing their own birth to the one that they're
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: hearing about online and they're feeling like failures. If they
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: can't have these unmedicated births, it's also creating a lot
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: of disappointment if people's birth plans don't go to plan.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: There are some birth blogs I've watched where influencers are
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: literally putting themselves and their babies at risk because they're
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: actually unwilling to go against the birth that they told
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: their audiences they wanted. Because we have seen birth actually
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: become a part of some influencers branding. Yeah, that's so true.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: And I think a lot of them almost romanticize it,
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: but that's at the end of the day, because giving
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: birth by a C-section is being viewed as a failure
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: by so many of these people. And I suppose when
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: it comes to an elective C-section, people are saying, well,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: you haven't even got yourself in the contest yet. You
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: haven't even tried.
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: And I think that's why it's so important to talk about.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: And I really respect that Laura Henshaw and Tully Smythe
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: have opened up about it because Tully even said within
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: her group of friends or at her mother's group, she
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: often felt like she didn't belong in the conversation when
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: they were talking about their birth stories. And I can
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: kind of relate to that because often I feel like, oh,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: You know, I just had a C-section, so there's not
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: a really interesting story. When you say just had a C-section, though,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: it really, like, I know you're not trying to, but
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: it minimizes it. Like, people who have had a C-section
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: will realize it is not the easy option. It is
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: not a walk in the park. I found mine horrendous. Well,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: the stats say that 41% of mothers deliver via C-section.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: So it is extremely normal. And that stat is only growing.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: More and more women are opting for an elective C-section
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: because In terms of the rise in cesarean, there's obviously
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: medical reasons, but an obstetrician who was interviewed about it
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: said that the biggest reason is the demand is growing.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Women want control over how they give birth. And it's
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: actually a positive thing that women now have a choice
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: on how they give birth. Well, you can see why
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: women like Tully are internalizing this ridiculous rhetoric.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: And the disturbing thing is, She believed it so much
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: that she thought that she didn't have the right to recover. Now, unfortunately,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: it got to a point where a few days in,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: she was having such excruciating pain that she had no
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: choice but to actually stop and rest. I feel so
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: sorry for Tully because It is painful, the aftermath of
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: having a C-section. There are limited things you can do.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Do you think you recovered enough though? Because I remember
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: telling you, slow down. You were like, I remember Harry
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: was probably a couple of days old and you had
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: us over for dinner. We had takeaway and you were
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: on your hands and knees on the floor wiping the ground.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: I think it might be a hormonal thing that kicks
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: in or like adrenaline where you're like, fuck, I need
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: to get like, I need to clean the house. People
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: are coming over. But did you think that you didn't
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: deserve rest? No, I didn't. think that I think I'm
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: just a stubborn person and I wanted to get on
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: with things like I remember going for a 5k walk
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: I think it was like two weeks after Harry was
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: born and I knew that I probably shouldn't be doing
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: it but I wanted to be doing I wanted to
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: be out like pain meds also because if you take
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: enough you can't really oh no I could I could
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: still feel it but I think it's really hard That
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: is one downside of obviously having a cesarean that you
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: can't do some things that you could potentially do if
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: you'd given birth vaginally. I mean, again, there are limitations
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: to what you can do depending on how your vaginal
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: birth goes too. There's obviously recovery there. I remember my
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: in-laws went and bought me one of those like pincher
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: things to help me off the ground. And that was
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: really good, but it was so... frustrating because there's so
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: much that you need to be doing. Mine didn't come
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: from a point of not thinking that I deserve to
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: have rest. Mine came from the point of feeling like
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: I just had to keep going. I was up and
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: walking within a couple of hours after surgery. Oh, I
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: don't know how you did that. I remember like literally
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: the first time getting out of bed and then I
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: had a shower and you know how everyone, well, I
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: suppose most people who have vaginal birth talk about how
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: that is such a big moment for them having the
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: shower and they're so They just love it. They can
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: get refreshed. I remember coming out and crying and having
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: to be consoled by Reese because I was in so
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: much pain. It felt like when you got up, the
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: insides were going to fall out.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: It was awful. For me, I have this really strange
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: relationship still with the scar because I feel like I
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: saw yours, Kate, and I feel like mine hasn't healed
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: quite as nicely as yours. I am a year ahead.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: I understand that. But I mean, I saw it when
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: you were one year in and for so long, for
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: so many months, I would see it as this sort
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: of like I'd been to war or something, but not
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: in like a way where you were proud of yourself,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: but by a way that I just didn't recognize my body.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: And I felt like I'd just been permanently disfigured in
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: this way. I think because my son was quite sick
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: the first couple of days in hospital, I found the
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: whole birth experience very traumatic and very overwhelming that I
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: kind of felt like a completely different person and that
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: was more evident when I got in the shower and
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: I did this scar. I'm like, oh, I'm not the
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: same person anymore. But see, it's so complex and that's
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: why it just infuriates me that people think they have
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: the right to judge you about how you give birth.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: But I think it's just a baptism of fire into
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: the judgment that you receive just in motherhood in general.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: Like it's just the first thing. Then it's, you know,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: whether you're breastfeeding or formula feeding, like I don't know
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: if it ends. Yeah.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: My first reaction is LeBron doesn't know what a stay-at-home
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: mom is.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: LeBron James has been labelled disrespectful after claiming he couldn't
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: date a stay-at-home mom. In a Now Resurface podcast clip,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: the famous basketballer said this.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: If I was not in a relationship today, I could
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: not have a stay-at-home woman. It's not like for me
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: who I am at 40 and what I got going on,
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: just coming home and just seeing somebody just sitting on
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: the couch every day, just sitting there, just chilling, like
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: that wouldn't float for me.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Oh, my blood is already boiling. LeBron, just so you know,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: stay-at-home mums don't sit on the couch. When I am
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: looking after my child, I don't even get to sit down.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I am constantly moving. There is no way my husband
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: gets home from his nine to five and I'm sitting,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: chilling on the couch with my toddler. Now, the wildest
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: thing is he made these comments whilst appearing on his wife,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Savannah James's podcast, Everybody's Crazy. And she didn't look impressed
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: because she herself was a stay-at-home mom for around 10 years.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: She now is a businesswoman. She obviously runs a podcast
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: as well. Well, she's described as a philanthropist, like she's
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: successful in her own right. I know there will be
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: a lot of people defending LeBron saying his comment was
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: taken out of context and this isn't a swipe at
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: stay-at-home moms. It's just what he wants in a partner currently. However,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: him saying, I wouldn't want to be with a woman
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: who sits on the couch all day when his wife,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: devoted her life to look after his children while he
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: was off chasing his dreams. It's incredibly offensive. Well, this
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: clip has gone absolutely viral despite being recorded months ago.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: It's recently racked up 13 million views on X and
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: people aren't happy. So one user wrote, LeBron's out here
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: saying the woman who sacrificed her prime to raise his
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: kids and build his legacy isn't enough anymore. He needs
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: her grinding for loot too or he'll get bored. Another wrote,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: this makes absolutely no sense. If they are a stay-at-home mum,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: there are a million things to do. Of course, as
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: you predicted, Sophie, people were also defending LeBron. Someone said,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: if he said he wanted a stay-at-home wife, he'd be
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: getting flack as a misogynist. It's a lose-lose situation. He's
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: clearly referring to a partner who is unmotivated or doesn't
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: move their weight in the relationship, just enjoying his money,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: not a hardworking partner who is at home. It's fine
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: to want to be with someone who is motivated and ambitious. Look,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: I understand that sentiment to a point, but the issue
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: here is that if that's what LeBron was trying to
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: get across, why does he think a stay-at-home mum isn't
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: motivated or hardworking or doesn't pull their weight? Like they
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: are doing the most important job possible. Well, Mamma Mia
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: writer Hilary Simon took it upon herself to challenge LeBron
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: by logging every minute of her day whilst at home
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: with her children. She wanted to show just how much
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: of her day she was, I quote, sitting on the
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: couch chilling. And I was exhausted just reading the first
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: half of her morning. I must admit, I didn't even
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: get through it. The list was so long. So she
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: has a baby and a five-year-old and she did not stop.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: There was not one moment of her day where she
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: just chilled and her night was also interrupted by tending
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: to her children waking. I love the part when Hilary
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: pointed out that LeBron spends two hours on the basketball court,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: whereas she spends 24 hours a day being a stay-at-home mum.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: She also very cleverly pointed out that a basketballer burns
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: around 600 to 1,000 calories on the court, while a
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: stay-at-home mum burns nearly 1,500 calories a day chasing, rocking,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: and carrying a small baby. I can attest to this,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: and Soph and I had this discussion last week. We
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: actually both think we're fitter now after having our children,
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: despite like not getting back really to any form of exercise.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Like my exercise is lifting my 14 kilo toddler. This
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: was proven to me. when I just randomly thought I
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: wonder how many push-ups I can do now this is
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: after not doing push-ups for over a year well over
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: a year during my pregnancy as well and I used
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: to work out a lot so I would do a
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: lot of HIIT workout and I would struggle to do pushups.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: The other day, I banged out 10 pushups, no trouble.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: This is after doing no physical workouts whatsoever. And that's
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: because my upper body strength has just grown since having
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Luca because I'm permanently rocking a child to sleep. I'm
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: holding him everywhere he goes. That really concerns me, Sophie.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: That's not going to be good for your ganglion cyst.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Like please stop doing pushups. My ganglion cyst is just
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: out of control. But you never stop, especially during the
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: toddler phase. Like you're running, you're lifting, you're rocking, you're carrying,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: you're lifting, like even just lifting your pram and your
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: child into the car seat. It's constant. I actually want
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: to track a full day to see how many calories
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: I actually burn. Now, another huge difference she pointed out
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: was that athletes like LeBron James are looked after by
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: physios and trainers while stay-at-home mums get a brief sit down,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: maybe after they've put their baby to bed and they've
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: got to get up the next day, the next day,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: the next day and do the same thing. I mean,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: my therapy at the moment is a wheat bag. I'm
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: sure LeBron James is having like physios, doctors, all sorts,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: getting him ready for the court. And it used to
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: be a Pepsi Max until. Yeah, I can't even have
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: that anymore. Now, Hillary ended the article by saying, You
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: made $ 52. 6 million this season. That's roughly $ 641, 000 per game. Meanwhile,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: there's no salary for stay-at-home mums and no off-season. But
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: here's the thing, LeBron. This isn't really about money. It's
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: about value. The work happening inside home doesn't always come
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: with a paycheck or a highlight reel, but that doesn't
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: make it any less real. Millions of mothers are at
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: home raising the next generation of doctors, leaders, engineers, artists,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: and yes, maybe even the next LeBron James. If we
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: do this right, we send better humans into the world.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: That's not sitting on the couch. That's the most important
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: work anyone can do. I love Hillary. I couldn't agree more.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: I feel like LeBron's own mother is probably shaking her
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: head at his comments. Well, it was quite funny because
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: This clip popped up the other day on TikTok and
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: it was Jamie Lang who hosts a podcast with his wife, Sophie.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: And he had one full day of looking after his child, Ziggy.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I think Ziggy's a little bit younger than Luca. And
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: he basically said that being a stay-at-home mum is the
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: hardest job ever. We need to throw to the clip.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Mums out there are fucking incredible. I had a feeling that, right, okay,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: here we go. We're going to do this. And I
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: went back to work very early and I was like,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: I've had a really long day at work and now
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I have to go and do the nights because occasionally
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: I do a lot of the nights, right? And I'm like, oh,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: that's quite hard. Looking after a baby in the day
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: is harder than going to work For sure. For sure.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Even though I kind of knew that, it was proven
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: to me yesterday. So I wrote this message on Instagram
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: to shout out all mums. I went, right, I just
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: want to take a moment to shout out all the
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: mums out there. I know plenty of dads are absolutely
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: showing up and giving everything, including myself, but today, today
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: is not about that. Today I'm talking about the real heroes.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Ziggy's six months old now and I'm watching it firsthand
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: and honestly, mums are something else entirely. Even when they
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: are completely and utterly exhausted, they are still there, still checking,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: still listening, still making sure their baby is okay. They
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: don't swish off. Not ever. There is no cocking out.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: No someone else's turn. No pause button. They just keep going.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: And the instincts, I can't even explain it. Before the
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: cry even fully comes out, they already know what it means.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: I look at that and honestly wish I had even
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: a fraction of it. Mums never stop.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Not really.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Even when they sleep. A part of them is still on,
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: still present, still on guard. It's like a superpower that
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: nobody asked for and nobody prayed them for. They just
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: carry it every single day without making a fuss. So
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: to every single mom out there, I see you, I
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: salute you because the true heroes, they're you. And it's after,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: long story short, after my day, you do that every day.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: It's un-fucking-believable.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of people saying that, that once
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: they go back to work after being on maternity leave,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: they're like, this is a break. Like you start to
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: learn that actually work and I'm not trying to diminish
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: anyone's work because I know people are working hard out there, but.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: it is a break because you get to go in
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: your car with your podcast on. You're also being mentally stimulated.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like being a stay at
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: home parent or primary carrier, you are giving up your everything.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: You are giving up your interest. You're giving up your socialization. Sanity.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, no, just respect to people who have corporate jobs,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: but I feel like it's 10 times easier being in
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: the office than it is being at home with a toddler.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, some people hide out at their corporate jobs.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, you can go pick up a coffee, you
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: can go shopping in your lunch break. What it is,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: is that the minute that you wake up until really
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: your children go to bed and sometimes it's even after
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: they've gone to bed. Well, the ones that don't sleep. Yeah,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: you were doing something for somebody else that whole time.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Like you were sacrificing your need to go to the toilet,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: your like eating. Like for example, I can't eat at
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: the moment because Harry just wants everything that I have.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: So you are putting this person in before all of
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: your needs. And it is just a very selfless role.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: It's a beautiful role. I think that Hilary put it
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: so well when she said it's one of the most
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: important things that a person can do in this world,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: but it does get tiring when it is disrespected. So
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: it is nice to hear from people like Jamie Lang saying,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: you know what, fuck, I did that for one day
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: and I can't believe that that's what people do. I mean,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: the fact that it is such an important role but
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: it is so thankless at the same time and to
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: have someone like LeBron James come out and disrespect stay-at-home mums,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: it's pretty disappointing and I can see why people were
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: getting up in arms about it. Well, that is where
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: we're going to leave things today. But if you do
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: enjoy The Mums Group, we would absolutely love it if
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: you can make sure you are following us on Spotify
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: at Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: was recorded on the traditional land of the Kaurna people
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: of the Adelaide Plains. We pay respect to elders past
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: and present.