Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / Art Therapy With Gemma Louise Art | The Christian Reeve Podcast #351

Transcript

Art Therapy With Gemma Louise Art | The Christian Reeve Podcast #351 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Christian Reef
0:03
podcast. Today's guest is Gemma Louise
0:06
art as she goes on social media and we're be going to be
0:09
discussing art therapy. So hello and welcome to the
0:13
show. How you doing I'm.
0:14
Doing fine. How are you?
0:16
Good. I'm intrigued by this, to be
0:19
honest. I I, it was one of those ones I
0:22
had to look into it and, and kind of like understand, like
0:26
actually what it is. So I think I'll, I'll start with
0:30
that. I'll start with an introduction
0:31
for those who don't know. So art therapy this is According
0:35
to the British Association of Art Therapists, art therapy is
0:38
an established form of psychotherapy delivered by
0:41
trained art therapists to. Also known as art
0:45
psychotherapists, art therapy uses art as the primary mode of
0:51
expression alongside talking with an art therapist.
0:56
It aims to reduce distress and improve social, emotional and
1:02
mental health by promoting insight, self compassion and a
1:07
sense of agency and self worth. During art therapy you are
1:11
supported by an art therapist to use art to express and
1:15
articulate often complex thoughts and feelings through
1:18
art making. This may be following difficult
1:21
or traumatic experiences which be may be hard to talk about.
1:26
I don't think I've ever said the word art that many times in my
1:28
entire life. So mad.
1:34
How did how did you come across this art therapy as a concept?
1:38
So basically I came across it very young because I actually
1:42
had a family member that actually had a drama therapist,
1:44
because you can also have drama therapists, you can have music
1:47
therapists. There's lots of different forms
1:49
of therapy that involve creative arts in some shape or form.
1:53
And so he used to access that and it was a great for him, for
1:56
his mental health. And I was exposed to one of his
1:59
sessions, which was interesting. So it's always been in the back
2:02
of my mind. And then I naturally was drawn
2:04
to art. So I did my degree in fine art
2:08
and everything, and originally I thought I was going to go into
2:11
teaching, had my toe in the door with that and was working in
2:18
education for a bit. And I just naturally gravitated
2:21
to using art in sessions with young people that were obviously
2:26
struggling, had certain things going off at home and stuff like
2:29
that to help them talk and navigate those thoughts and
2:32
like, help them improve with their place in like, the
2:35
traditional school system. And yeah, it's been on my radar.
2:39
So it's been on my radar for many, many years.
2:42
And it's only lately that I'm now officially studying.
2:45
So I am now a training art psychotherapist, which is great.
2:50
And yeah, it was, it was quite a battle to get onto it, but it
2:55
was a worthy 1 so. But yeah.
2:58
So in general, how does this work?
3:00
Like do you kind of sit down and paint something and someone asks
3:04
you questions? Is that kind of how that works?
3:06
Yes and no. So basically you can do pretty
3:10
much anything like art wise. So typically you'll have like a
3:15
range of materials and it could be paint, it could be pastels,
3:19
it could just be pen and paper, it could be actually making
3:21
something with clay or things like that.
3:24
However, whatever way you want to express yourself, sometimes
3:28
it could even be a session where you don't actually have art
3:31
making, you'd just rather talk. Or sometimes it could just be a
3:34
session where you're just making and not talking at all.
3:36
It's very, you know, different with how you navigate that at
3:41
first and with that, you know, normally there's a conversation
3:46
to like, you know, just little bits of chit chat essentially
3:50
just to get to know you at 1st and things like that.
3:52
And as that relationship develops between client and
3:54
therapist, you know those, you know, those issues that or
3:58
topics that you want to like, discuss and go about get brought
4:03
up naturally. It's not the case of like we're
4:06
just sat there and critiquing your work or anything like that
4:10
in like a traditional art view. It's more you know, or how does
4:14
you know, how is that process and you know, are you enjoying
4:16
what you're doing or you know, have looking back on things?
4:21
And so it's more it's different from like a conventional art
4:25
world way of viewing art. It's more about focusing on the
4:29
expression and like, you know, the functionality of that kind
4:34
of thing. So if there are sessions where
4:36
people aren't talking and they're just making their art,
4:38
like what? What is the point of a session
4:40
like that? I mean, let's suppose you've got
4:42
someone who's, I don't know, they're dealing with a lot and
4:46
you just have a series of sessions and they're not
4:48
speaking and they're just making the art.
4:49
I mean, what's that achieving? Well, first of all, it's like an
4:52
intimate space. You're sharing that space with
4:54
that person and you're building that trust essentially.
4:58
Some people, you know, it depends who you are as a person,
5:01
how quickly you are to discuss what's going on and those
5:04
feelings and things like that. And you know, as like art
5:07
psychotherapists or therapists, you know, we try and engage with
5:11
you, you know, we try and ask questions here and there, but
5:12
we're not going to push you or back you into a corner.
5:16
It's slowly open yourself up kind of thing.
5:19
And with those sessions where a client just sits there and just
5:21
does art making, in actuality, the fact that you're doing art
5:25
making can tell us quite a lot about, you know, you as a person
5:28
and what's going off. Like say you're making
5:31
something, but you're trying to hide it away.
5:33
It shows that you're putting boundaries up, you're putting
5:35
those walls up and you're still trying to feel out.
5:38
Whereas someone that's like openly, you know, sharing that
5:41
and everything. It shows that you know you do
5:44
want to share something, but maybe you're not able to
5:46
articulate it yet or not sure how to, and you're slowly
5:50
learning how to process that to be able to then say that in a
5:54
later session. Playing devil's advocate, I mean
5:57
go on. If you're trying to obviously
6:00
help someone with therapy, then you have to ask the
6:03
uncomfortable questions. Yes.
6:05
Well, it is important to make someone feel comfortable and
6:10
obviously build that trust. As you mentioned, sooner or
6:14
later they need to start answering some questions.
6:16
I'm not saying like it has to be like, right, tell me this, tell
6:18
me this, tell me your deepest, innermost thoughts, but you're
6:21
going to go to a therapy session.
6:23
You have to be prepared to to talk.
6:26
Well, that's kind of the whole point, right?
6:27
So like, how do you know what I mean?
6:30
That's something I'm struggling with here because it's like I
6:34
understand the whole activity side of things.
6:36
Sometimes that helps that you see content creators, artists,
6:40
sometimes they'll be like painting and then like talking
6:43
about a really complex issue or like the the one of the one of
6:49
the ones that I found interesting, which isn't really
6:50
it's not like therapy based, but it's just interesting.
6:54
In more recent years is is when women do like make up on streams
6:57
and they'll talk about often like really harrowing
7:00
experiences rather just like, and it looks so casual like,
7:04
yeah, you know, when I was five, I got abused like that.
7:07
And it's like, Jesus Christ. But for whatever reason, it
7:11
works for them because, you know, they feel comfortable.
7:14
I suppose an element of it is control like that or I can
7:17
control my makeup and I can control my thoughts.
7:20
I don't know, I'm just theorizing here, like but yeah,
7:25
where's I guess what I'm asking is where's the line like where
7:29
you can start pushing? Because obviously every patients
7:32
going to be different, different.
7:33
I imagine a lot of people are like fully understanding that
7:36
they're going to have to talk. But for the people that don't
7:39
talk, like, where's the point where you can start pushing?
7:42
It's honestly on a case by case basis because obviously every
7:44
client's different and honestly, you know, when a person comes in
7:50
to to, to a session and they start that journey of art
7:52
therapy, sometimes you may have a context as to why, sometimes
7:56
you may not. It could be, you know, you find
7:59
that out obviously along the journey and with pushing that
8:03
normally you, you know, you try those little feed the questions
8:05
in the beginning and see how you're going to get on.
8:08
But obviously if you get to like say 6 sessions in and nothing's
8:12
like kind of progress, you know, you then have to re evaluate,
8:15
maybe consider whether art therapy is the right thing for
8:18
that person. Maybe they need something a bit
8:20
more, you know, whatever, like more, not more intense, but like
8:25
a different Ave. kind of thing. And you know, throughout all the
8:29
sessions, we will try and intervene and try and you know,
8:32
try and ask those questions and see what different reactions
8:34
we'll get. So obviously if it gets to the
8:38
point where it's like so many sessions in now, we may need to
8:41
evaluate and just ask them, you know, do you, what do you feel
8:44
like you're getting out of these sessions?
8:46
Do you feel like this is doing you, you know, do you feel like
8:48
this is helping you or, you know, I've noticed this is, you
8:51
know, you haven't really been talking much and, you know,
8:52
we'll have those open conversations with our clients
8:55
and try and get that feedback from them.
8:58
But yeah, so it's very case by case basis basically.
9:02
Who is our therapy for? Everyone genuinely, it could be
9:06
for those that are very young, it could be for those that are
9:09
very old, you know, in the middle from the clients that
9:13
I've seen case studies on and stuff like that.
9:15
Like it could be like, for example, those that have
9:18
Alzheimer's, those with mental health.
9:21
We've also have like children as well that are maybe like, you
9:25
know, grown up in certain systems or things like that.
9:29
Hospital patients, those with terminal illnesses.
9:32
There's quite a lot of avenues that it does adapt to.
9:35
It can be in a hospital setting, it can be in a school setting.
9:38
It can even be over Zoom these days, which is also interesting.
9:43
And so, you know, there's quite a lot of different ways that you
9:46
can adapt and cater to different client groups, so.
9:50
So with people that are terminally ill or dying, is
9:52
what's the purpose there? Is it to like, help them accept
9:55
death? Essentially that's part of it
9:59
because obviously, so for example, there was an exhibition
10:02
I went to that was at a Hospice that was about art therapy that
10:06
they deliver at that Hospice. And at that exhibition, it
10:10
showed you like what they created in the first session,
10:13
what they created in the middle session or what they created in
10:15
the last session. And throughout that journey,
10:18
it's, you know, getting them to accept what's happened.
10:22
Processing time is a significant thing with those that are in
10:25
that situation, but also, you know, allowing those emotions to
10:30
come out as well. You know, it's OK to be
10:33
frustrated. It's OK to, you know, this, that
10:36
and the other. And you know, it's actually been
10:39
quite beneficial in some ways to like help those people in those
10:43
situations to come to terms with, you know, what
10:48
unfortunately life has handed them.
10:51
Obviously, it's not the cure to, you know, the inevitable issue
10:55
at the end, but it's something that they can go.
10:59
You know what, I've been able to process this in a certain way.
11:02
I'm going to have these ups and downs, days and so on, but I've
11:07
got a better understanding of myself and how to, you know,
11:12
help regulate that. What?
11:13
Would you say are the main ways that art therapy helps as
11:16
opposed to standard therapy? So going into my personal
11:19
experience, so many, many years ago, I've had traditional
11:23
talking therapy where you sat in a room and it's just you and the
11:26
therapist. Yeah, I think it can be
11:30
confrontational to some people, especially if they haven't been
11:34
in their therapy the setting before, because there's nothing
11:39
to kind of divide that, you know, attention, that full
11:43
attention away with the benefit of having art therapy.
11:47
You're essentially got what's called the art therapy triangle.
11:51
So you've got your client at one point, you've got the therapist
11:54
at the other point, and then you've got the art making as
11:57
your Third Point. So it's this nice little
11:59
triangle that kind of goes back and forth between each other.
12:02
And by having that for someone that may be for finds that
12:06
scenario or setting of just having that straight line being,
12:11
you know, too much in a way which it can be for some people,
12:15
they've actually got this little 3rd Ave. that they can go into
12:19
to help break that divide. So it means that, you know, so
12:25
the therapist can interact with the work in terms of, you know,
12:29
evaluating it, looking at it and like, you know, asking them
12:31
about the materials and stuff like that.
12:34
But it can also help the client be like, I've talked to you
12:37
about this thing, but actually, I can't quite get into words
12:41
about this other nuance to this thing I've discussed, but I'm
12:45
able to draw it out for you or I'm able to, you know, it will
12:49
come from the unconscious mind with these drawings or paintings
12:52
or whatever we do. So I would say in a way it's a
12:56
bit more, there's more of an icebreaker, so to speak with it.
13:02
But obviously everybody's different.
13:04
Everyone, you know, approaches therapy in different ways.
13:07
Some people, you know, that conventional therapy of just one
13:10
to one can work with. Others, you know, whether that'd
13:13
be over the phone, in person, etcetera.
13:15
Others they may need that extra thing such as art therapy, drama
13:18
therapy, etcetera. What did you get from art
13:21
therapy? Jerome, as part of my studies, I
13:24
have to actually access art therapy.
13:26
So any art therapist that is trained, part of their training
13:31
is while they're on placement, they have to access art therapy
13:35
so that, you know, they can understand what it's like from
13:38
the client's perspective who's receiving art therapy.
13:41
But also if there's any issues that may come up in sessions,
13:44
it's more of a little check because we're all human.
13:47
We're not all, you know, invincible to everything.
13:51
Everyone will have something and you know, that goes for any
13:56
therapist as well. You know, we're not, you know,
13:59
all perfect. And in my sessions of art
14:03
therapy, I have my Nova Zoom, for example.
14:07
So it'll be like this. I'll have like a video
14:09
conference with my mic and everything like that.
14:12
And I'll typically have my stuff painted, put my camera pointing
14:16
to my face, put in my art or whatever I'm making, have like a
14:20
little setup and stuff. And in those sessions, I've been
14:25
able to understand my want to help people, which has been
14:31
interesting to delve into more. I've been also been able to
14:36
identify certain things and patterns as well with myself,
14:41
stuff that I'm already aware of, but it's made the understanding
14:46
of that, you know, more cemented, which has been good.
14:50
And in all honestly, it's given me a appreciation of stuff that
14:55
I've created in the past as well when I look back.
14:59
So I do painting and stuff and that normally in my own art
15:03
career and it's made me look back at my paintings and
15:08
actually understand why there's certain themes that crop up in
15:12
my artwork and, you know, certain topics that also crop up
15:16
as well. So it's it's been quite
15:20
interesting from that side of things as well.
15:22
Obviously as time goes on, as I go carry on through this
15:26
training and everything, then maybe more things that come up
15:30
and more lessons I learn. That's just the natural
15:32
progression of it. But I'd say that's about roughly
15:36
what I've got so far. But yeah.
15:40
What would you say are the biggest challenges associated
15:44
with art therapy? I think #1 is getting to people
15:48
to understand what it is. I think that's number one big
15:50
challenge. And that is for every creative
15:53
own conventional therapy. I feel like as well, as well as
15:59
breaking down the boundary, you know, of who it is actually for.
16:03
You know, some people may view it as only something that's
16:05
successful to young people or children, for example, because
16:08
of the form of therapy it is. But actually it's for all ages.
16:15
Yeah. And in terms of like, you know,
16:17
the other sides of bit of like, you know, like, so for example,
16:21
like I mentioned the Zoom thing, like how can something like that
16:24
be accessible over online? And it's becoming something
16:28
that's actually more common these days.
16:32
And although you haven't got that, you know, sat in the same
16:35
room togetherness kind of thing, which does add to the, you know,
16:39
therapy relationship, you know, there are actually ways to adapt
16:43
to just different environments as well.
16:46
So it's not a what? It's not a right.
16:48
It's a cookie cutter thing. And this is all it has to be.
16:51
It's A1 size fits all kind of thing which is good.
16:56
You're not missing on the kind of the energy and the vibe there
16:59
because I feel like if you, if you're receiving any kind of
17:03
therapy, you know, you're talking to a stranger about
17:08
traumatic moments in your life, difficult things you're dealing
17:12
with. As you said, you have to build
17:14
up trust over time. Like can you really do that over
17:17
a Zoom call versus physically being in a room with someone?
17:22
Some people can, some people can't.
17:24
Obviously it's dependent on how everybody is.
17:27
I can say in my personal experience, I have been able to
17:30
tackle some of those subjects, but obviously other people may
17:34
want that actual environment to have that in.
17:37
So it's not in their own home space, which I can completely
17:40
simplifies and understand. It's again, it's a case by case.
17:44
Most of these things. It's a case by case basis.
17:46
It's dependent on who you are as a person, you know, whether
17:49
you're comfortable tackling that in your own space or whatever
17:53
you set up kind of thing for those sessions via resume.
17:56
If you're not comfortable with that, you know, there are
17:58
options to have those face to face options.
18:00
And you know, whether that be, you know, through, you know,
18:03
there's like an actual like you can have places in hospitals,
18:07
for example, that have art therapy places.
18:11
It's also, you know, like lots of different community centres
18:13
and everything like that, that have dedicated spaces to them
18:16
Now. Like for example, one of the
18:17
therapists, they work in a bloody centre that has a
18:19
dedicated art therapy section there with their own room and
18:23
materials and stuff. There's lots of different ways
18:26
like it can be accessed. It's just dependent on you as a
18:28
person. I would say try both personally,
18:32
you know, and see what works for you.
18:36
Personally, I am doing a bit of both, but for, you know, my
18:41
lifestyle, it's more easier for me to have it via Zoom, which is
18:45
why I'm doing it that way for my training.
18:48
So it's dependent. It's you've got to look at your
18:50
lifestyle and what you need and what you reciprocate as a person
18:55
kind of thing in those kind of situations and environments.
18:58
Do art therapists tend to charge a, you know, like a a lower
19:05
price point for Zoom sessions versus physical sessions?
19:08
Yeah, they can do, definitely. So mine are cheaper, for
19:12
example, for Zoom sessions rather than physical sessions.
19:14
But obviously the caveat to that is you will use your own
19:17
materials because it's a Zoom session.
19:20
So there's obviously that to keep in mind.
19:22
I mean, luckily I have quite a lot of stuff because I'm
19:25
naturally creative soul anyway, so I've got God knows how many
19:28
materials. But obviously other people, they
19:30
may just have a paper and pen, but it doesn't matter how many
19:33
materials you have, you know, even if you've just got a pen
19:36
and paper that's small enough, even just a piece of paper that
19:39
you can just scramble up or something, that's still art
19:41
making. So what's your approach to a
19:45
typical art therapy session like to walk me through like the
19:50
structure and how that will go down my.
19:52
Structure is basically. I have my own dedicated space
19:56
for it. I'm lucky enough to have that.
19:59
It's in like a room that I do use as my workspace as well.
20:04
So there is that conflict inside of it.
20:05
So it's not the most ideal environment, but it's what I've
20:08
got. I normally have like my
20:11
materials around me or whatever so that I'm not having to like
20:14
constantly get up out of a chair and stuff to try and find
20:17
something in a drawer somewhere or whatever that I'm like, oh,
20:20
I've got this. So it's accessible, so it's more
20:22
comfortable. Have this kind of set up here
20:26
that I've got now. And basically I just have that
20:30
moment for myself before the session starts.
20:32
It's just, you know, let whatever's happened like that
20:36
morning and someone just like calm myself down before I go
20:38
into it. That's typically how I approach
20:40
it. Some people may just go in
20:41
straight after work or whatever. I have been guilty of doing that
20:44
before. I know it's mind boggling, but
20:47
people can do it and do do it sometimes.
20:50
You know, whether I would personally say that's
20:52
recommended, I don't know. I think you need that kind of
20:53
breather to die. I.
20:55
Just ran I I don't know if that would be a therapy session so
20:58
much as just listening to a guy rant about how much he hates his
21:00
fucking job for 20. Yeah, some people can be like
21:04
that. And you know what, sometimes
21:05
that rant can be useful and you know, they may just need to get
21:09
that initial thing off their chest to then get into it.
21:12
But obviously ideally do it around a time where you're free
21:16
and so on and everything like that.
21:17
So I purposely schedule it so that I have time free and so on,
21:21
like just a little bit beforehand for me to mentally
21:24
prepare because sometimes it can be rough.
21:26
Sometimes it can be a good session.
21:29
You don't know what's going to come up.
21:31
I'll be honest, sometimes there may be something that I actually
21:34
want to talk about. Sometimes I just go in blind and
21:38
like I end up talking about something that I never thought I
21:40
was going to bring up. It can be completely random and
21:46
that's pretty much the setup. And normally at the end she
21:49
gives me timers. So it'll be like, so we've got
21:52
like, so we've got like 15 minutes left of this session.
21:55
We'll give 10 minutes. We've got 5 minutes just so it's
21:58
not an abrupt end. And you know, in that time, it
22:03
gives me time to kind of like decompress, unwind, settle back,
22:08
know that I've, you know, talked about whatever and kind of just
22:12
essentially have this like self meditation in a way of like
22:15
relaxing my body and so on after discussing whatever I've
22:18
discussed. I imagine when you're looking at
22:23
the art produced, that probably gives you a bit of an insight
22:28
into the patient's mind. So is there any instances where
22:32
it's like disturbing and maybe it like that becomes a talking
22:36
point like, oh, I see you've produced this disturbing art.
22:39
Let's discuss that. Yeah, so sometimes it can come
22:45
up. So as part of our training, we
22:47
have group sessions at uni and with that we actually get to
22:50
practice this skill of, you know, talking openly about our
22:54
art and so on. And there have been times where
22:56
I've looked at other people's art and gone.
22:58
That's triggered this for me. Or I think it actually looks
23:01
like this compared to what they're saying, you know, And
23:06
it's just a case of, you know, oh, I've seen you've, you know,
23:10
talk to me what you've done, you know, talk to me about the
23:13
process of how you've made this and so on.
23:15
And going step by step as to how they got to that end result and
23:20
going, oh, you know, what's the intention for like why you've
23:24
caught bit in this with this with like a Stanley knife, for
23:28
example. Like why have you done it with a
23:30
Stanley knife rather than a pair of scissors or like tearing it
23:34
with your hands or stuff like that?
23:35
Because people do, they gravitate to all sorts of
23:38
different things, honestly. And you've got to ask these
23:41
questions, as silly as they may sound, but honestly?
23:47
Excuse me, Sir. Why?
23:48
Why have you taken this in your blood?
23:52
I'm concerned. Things like that.
23:54
If it was something like that scenario, obviously that's where
23:58
safeguarding and stuff like that comes in.
24:00
And we would say, you know, we would obviously once we noticed
24:04
that, we would stop that and be like, look, we've got some
24:06
concerns and we would obviously escalate that in those kind of
24:09
situations like you brought up there.
24:12
You ever witnessed anything like that?
24:14
Like it's where it goes too far and you have to kind.
24:17
Of so not in this current current journey that I'm on, but
24:23
like when I've worked in education and I've like made art
24:26
with like younger kids, I have seen things that I've gone
24:29
that's brought up a certain theme that I'm concerned about.
24:32
I need to raise that because I'm not doing my duty of care and
24:36
diligence if I don't. And you know, you have to,
24:40
that's one of the first things you have to disclose with any
24:42
client, which is, you know, if there's something that I think
24:44
that's going to cause you harm or if I think you're going to
24:47
cause harm to someone else, you know, I have to raise that.
24:51
And I have to, you know, do my due diligence to make sure that
24:56
at the end of the day, you've got the right support around you
25:00
or maybe you need something, you know, extra to support you
25:04
through whatever you know, has come up.
25:07
So it's something that, you know, can come up at any time
25:09
for any therapist, you know, regardless of what type of
25:12
therapist you are. But it's, you know, you need to
25:15
do your due diligence with that. But yeah, anything that severe
25:19
where, you know, there's that the blood thing or whatever you
25:22
just mentioned. Yeah, we would, we would stop
25:24
that, I think as soon as we noticed and go.
25:29
We need to deal with this. When you're going through due
25:32
diligence like So what kind of things are you going for?
25:36
What are you looking at when you're going through that
25:38
process? Basically it's just obviously,
25:41
you know, depending what comes up.
25:43
So it's like dotting the TS and crossing the, crossing the TS
25:46
and dotting the IS even. So, you know, if it's anything
25:49
to do with like stuff at home that I think needs to be
25:53
reported, what way do I report that?
25:56
Making sure they've got a safe space.
25:57
If they haven't got a safe space to go back to after the session,
26:01
you got to do all these things and so for example.
26:04
Well, that's a really good point.
26:05
If I if I might interject like OK.
26:07
Yeah, go ahead. If, if it's in their space and
26:10
you're doing a zoom call, it's not a controlled environment.
26:13
So what can you really do? If they've, for instance, if
26:15
they like hurt themselves on camera and you see that like,
26:18
what can you really do? Report it as soon as so if they
26:22
did hurt themselves, so it would obviously be, you know,
26:25
emergency services and stuff. We would before that the
26:29
sessions would begin with a Zoom session.
26:31
You know, we have them fill in a form which discloses, you know,
26:34
where the where the Zoom sessions will be taking place.
26:37
So you know, if it's at the home or whatever, if they've got an
26:39
emergency contact, we ask them to give them their details so
26:43
that we can contact them in the first instance.
26:45
There's all these prerequisites that are done and so that if a
26:50
situation like that should arise, we've got all the
26:52
necessary information to go straight away, right.
26:55
I can see this happened and I need to do my, you know, do this
26:59
and, you know, make sure you get the right care and support and
27:02
help that you need right now. You know, so I am going to do
27:05
that. So it's the case of going, you
27:07
know, go through that information that you've got and
27:09
going right, I've got the address, I've got this and so
27:11
on. Going through contacting all
27:13
those people, getting support in place.
27:17
What's more like effective? Like a group therapy and a group
27:22
that can't fucking speak today. What's more effective, a group
27:26
art therapy session or a one to one art therapy session?
27:31
Both can be. Again, it's another one of
27:35
those. It's dependent on you as a
27:36
person. I think in training it's good to
27:39
have group as well as individual because by having group you can
27:43
see how other people explain their work, talk about it, how
27:48
people may question others about, oh, why did you make this
27:51
decision? Why did you do this?
27:53
Oh, I, this is just a projection, but I think it looks
27:56
like this or I, I can see this image in it.
28:00
That's kind of helpful to have other people's insight as you're
28:03
going through that training process.
28:06
But also can pictures be beneficial in general if you
28:08
don't want to go through that journey alone?
28:10
It depends how open of a person you are, whether you're
28:12
comfortable in a group environment, I guess.
28:15
And then obviously individual, you've got that one person to
28:19
yourself, which some people may find a comfort in that.
28:22
Some people may think that's a bit still a bit too much and may
28:24
prefer the group approach. It's a bit of a, you know, which
28:28
way do you want to go kind of thing.
28:29
What have you found? And there are ways to try it
28:31
effective. For me, I think the individual
28:36
stuff has been more effective personally.
28:39
And that's because being in a training environment with the
28:43
group stuff, I'm not going into the sessions or going, oh, I'm
28:47
going to make this today. That's not the what my approach
28:51
with the group sessions. It's more I'll make whatever and
28:54
I'll talk about it. And sometimes there can be
28:56
projections from other people that may not be helpful.
29:00
Other times there can be projections that are helpful.
29:03
So you know that that cloudiness from, you know, the unhelpful
29:08
projections can kind of clog up with what you think the image
29:13
represents and actually what you've discovered about yourself
29:16
during this process and everything like that.
29:19
And obviously, you know, in a group environment where you all
29:21
sat around in the circle going one, but I want talking about
29:24
your work, you know, there's more of a spotlight as well on
29:26
you in a way when you're talking about those things.
29:30
Whereas an individual, it's like a it's my own contained space.
29:35
So for me that feels more secure personally.
29:38
Are there any particular forms of art that are more effective
29:42
in getting people to discuss their problems or feelings?
29:44
I wouldn't say there's any specific form of art that's
29:48
effective because any form of art can be effective.
29:53
Basically it's just depending on, you know, what resources are
29:58
available to you, I guess is what that comes under.
30:01
So I mean, for me, my natural is always picking up a paintbrush.
30:06
That's when my #1 go to because I like being able to like make
30:11
something abstract or whatever. Or you know, sometimes I do
30:14
actual literal images, but I mean.
30:16
As I said though, that you lay out a bunch of materials.
30:20
On the table and. People pick.
30:22
So like, let me frame the question another way.
30:25
The most common thing that people reach for when they enter
30:29
that room? If I'm looking back on the group
30:32
sessions, so we have all these materials basically the same.
30:36
I'd say a lot of stuff that people pick up are pastels and
30:42
oil. Oil pastels because it's like
30:44
something that you can make a lot of different marks with.
30:46
You can be quite delicate with it or you can just make a mess
30:48
with it. You do see people pick up paint
30:53
as well, but it's not that often.
30:56
A lot of things that I've seen is quite a lot of collage stuff
30:59
in the group sessions as well. So they'll be like a pile of
31:03
like a bunch of old magazines, papers, etcetera.
31:07
And people just will want to search for them.
31:09
They may find an image in that book or a piece of writing or
31:12
whatever that might gravitate to them and they decide, yeah, I
31:14
want to incorporate that in this.
31:16
So those are like the main three that I've seen.
31:20
But I have, you know, there's still other odd ones here and
31:23
there, like some people like using like sewing, for example.
31:27
So they'll like get fabric and actually make something like a
31:30
soft toy or things like that. Some people use sand tray where
31:34
it's like something that's not permanent.
31:36
So basically it's like a tray of sand and they have like
31:38
different objects or whatever that they put on and they make
31:40
like a little scene. Don't think crazy you've seen
31:44
that weird that bit out there. I wouldn't say crazy, just
31:47
different to how I would make things.
31:49
I guess it's different seeing how other people create art and
31:53
seeing what that output is. Like you could see something and
31:58
go, I think that just looks like a few things that you've just
32:00
cut a few things out of and you just crumpled it up and it's
32:03
just looks like a piece of rubbish.
32:05
Like you could just, you know, see stuff like that.
32:08
But then when you hear them talk to you and explain, oh, this is
32:12
what I did and then I did this and I didn't like how I was
32:14
doing that. So then I decided to do this
32:16
decision instead. It was like, it starts to make
32:19
more sense. And then other times I can see
32:22
stuff and I'm like, that's a bit odd, but OK, I guess because
32:27
dreams come up a lot naturally, like stuff they're like, oh, I
32:31
wanted to make this image that I saw in my dream.
32:34
And like, they'll talk to you about this like vivid dream they
32:37
had. And you're like, that's quite a
32:38
crazy dream, you know, good job trying to put that on a piece of
32:42
paper or whatever. But it's, it's a bit odd, I
32:44
guess. But you know, it'll take a bit
32:46
of getting, you know, really listening and looking at it to
32:49
understand it more so. Are there any risks associated
32:55
with art therapy? In terms of what do you mean
32:58
like in terms of risk to self or risk to others like?
33:02
Anything you know? What are the risks involved?
33:04
Well, obviously there's quite a lot of topics that can be
33:08
brought up and you know, sometimes that can be too much
33:13
for a person, so to speak. And you know, it's so that can
33:17
be a risk in general, but that's with any general therapy.
33:21
I feel depending what environment you're working in,
33:25
there could be a risk. For example, art therapy is used
33:29
in prisons as well with groups. So there's that risk factor
33:35
depending what group of prisoners you're working with as
33:39
well. But obviously there'll be
33:41
certain risk assessments that are carried out, so you don't
33:43
have certain things in the room that would cause harm to people
33:47
and things like that. And also there's the risk of,
33:50
you know, in a group environment, how one person in
33:53
that group might react to what somebody has put out as well.
33:57
So it's so, you know, about gauging that and making sure
34:02
hopefully that everyone understands that, you know,
34:04
whatever's said in here is a private space.
34:07
You know, it stays in this room. What's said within the group, if
34:10
I feel like something or whatever needs to be raised, I,
34:13
as the, you know, therapist of that group would, you know, take
34:17
whatever necessary interventions with that.
34:20
It's quite a lot of different things.
34:22
When would someone be referred? Music.
34:25
Sorry, art therapy. Could be music therapy as well.
34:30
Any, I don't know, like, yeah, let's suppose you're waiting for
34:35
therapy on the NHS or I don't know, it's general triage.
34:40
You you're talking to a physician and you're like, OK,
34:43
well I need some therapy. When would that happen?
34:48
When would you be referred that or like how does that happen
34:53
essentially? So with the NHS, obviously they
34:56
gravitate to the first talking therapies, whether it's over a
34:59
phone, in person. You've also got calm service as
35:02
well for those that are younger, things like that.
35:05
And so there's different approaches, you know, that's
35:07
those are the typical first approaches in any NHS journey.
35:11
You know, if that isn't working, you know, you should obviously
35:15
feed that back to who referred you for that.
35:19
And you know, that's when the questions brought up off well,
35:21
if that isn't, if that type of therapy isn't working, let's see
35:24
what other avenues are. It's not typically the first
35:27
choice that the NHS would typically choose.
35:32
Sometimes it can be, you know, they may look at your records if
35:34
you've had therapy in the past and know that it hasn't worked,
35:36
that it may come up as a first option.
35:38
Then it's dependent really. Most of the stuff can be private
35:44
referrals as well. And you know, some people you
35:49
know, may just fund it themselves too.
35:52
It's the case of basically it's trying to get more people to
35:56
understand that there is other options of therapy as well kind
35:59
of thing. That's part of the struggle of
36:01
creative therapy, I guess. But it is becoming a more
36:06
prevalent thing, especially in the age of well, I don't want to
36:11
say it's become a more common thing, but I think it's become a
36:14
more recognized thing that this is something that is happening,
36:17
which is there's a lot more neurodivergence in young, in
36:21
younger population. That's becoming more prevalent.
36:24
And I don't think it's something that's, oh, it's only just
36:27
starting now. If it's always been there, it's
36:30
just hasn't been identified, which is why you have adults in
36:34
later life now getting late diagnosis of, you know, whether
36:38
it's autism, ADHD, etcetera. And with neurodivergence, it's
36:44
creative therapies or not typical talking therapies or
36:47
whatever you know are typically recommended over normal standard
36:53
talking therapy these days. So it's growing and adapting
37:00
with how the way that everyone's like developing over time and
37:05
how the times have changed essentially so.
37:08
What are the biggest success stories you've seen with art
37:11
therapy? I'm going to go back to one from
37:13
the exhibition. There was a wonderful client.
37:19
So they give them all different fake names and everything out to
37:22
obviously protect that anonymity and stuff.
37:25
And they went by R and they had given a diagnosis of terminal
37:29
cancer and at first of all very angry in the first sessions and
37:38
they just couldn't accept it. They were just like,
37:42
everything's against me. They had severe depression, you
37:46
know, they didn't want to sit and talk or anything like that.
37:49
They were just very closed off and just not wanting to accept
37:53
reality essentially. And with this, you know, it was
37:58
a lot and they actually recommended them, you know,
38:01
that's get you. We've got your proof as these
38:03
are very possessions for the Hospice, you know, give it a
38:07
try, see what happens. And at first, they wouldn't go
38:09
in on their own. They would go in with their
38:12
partner, so their partner would just sit while they were in
38:17
their space. And, you know, they would just
38:19
let them make art. And at first they would make art
38:23
in the corner of the room, as far away from the therapist as
38:26
possible because they didn't want anything to do with it.
38:29
They didn't want to accept. They weren't ready to have that
38:32
journey out of acceptance and processing the news that they've
38:36
received. And what was the inevitability?
38:40
And eventually as it got to like the third session and then
38:43
started not going into that corner, they actually came to
38:47
the table that the therapist was sat and actually started
38:50
creating in front of them and openly showing what they were
38:53
doing. And part of that was because
38:58
every week they would leave whatever they made thinking it
39:01
was a mess because they would just Chuck like paint
39:04
everywhere, all over the table, like just spill anything they
39:08
could. And you know, they would just
39:12
look at that as a mess. But as part of one of the duties
39:16
of a art therapist, they kept that piece of artwork and they
39:20
kept it safe. And they made sure to bring it
39:22
out every session or whatever they made so that they knew that
39:25
whatever you create here, whatever you or whatever, I'm
39:28
not just going to Chuck it away. I'm throwing it a bin.
39:31
I'm going to keep it safe for you.
39:32
I'm going to make sure that it sucks after and so on.
39:36
So having seen that and identified that they were like,
39:39
OK, I'll, I'll open up and, you know, share this experience with
39:42
you of what I'm making. And what started out as big
39:46
spills ended up becoming actually quite dainty bits of
39:50
like the drawings of trees and stuff and like nature and stuff
39:55
growing more stuff like decaying and things like that.
40:00
And it was as if they were recognizing their growth was
40:03
being stunted. Which was quite interesting in
40:06
that journey. And eventually by the time they
40:08
got to the halfway, they were actually starting to talk and
40:12
go, this isn't right, this isn't fair and getting all that
40:16
emotion. And eventually they were able to
40:18
attend sessions without their partner in the room and be able
40:21
to openly express themselves. And then at the end, the last
40:25
image that they made, it was a tree.
40:27
And it had like leaves that were all made with gold leaf.
40:33
And it was a pure wonderful picture of like acceptance of
40:38
like it's bloomed into this final form of their reality.
40:45
But they've accepted that and they've taken the chance to
40:49
embrace that as they can. And that was quite powerful that
40:54
they've been able to go from something where they just want
40:58
to hideaway and shut away from the world.
41:00
And it eventually opened up and bloom and grow like this tree
41:03
had in the end. So it, you know, to me, that was
41:08
quite a powerful thing. And this client openly talked
41:12
about their journey at the exhibition with them.
41:14
I actually got to meet them, which was great.
41:17
And, you know, you could see the difference when they were
41:22
looking at what they made that was on display and see how
41:27
they've got started. And now I've like come to this
41:30
point of where they go right, I'm going to embrace what I've
41:34
got left and go from there. Quite moving stuff.
41:40
Thanks for sharing. Really really incredible stuff.
41:43
How do I follow that? Sorry.
41:48
I mean, this is, I guess what I was looking for really was is to
41:52
understand like why a person would go for this type of
41:57
therapy. And I suppose in instances like
42:00
that, it's pretty powerful, especially when you don't see
42:03
the point anymore because I mean, maybe that's the point.
42:07
Maybe this sort of therapy is for people that are in those
42:10
kind of. Yeah.
42:12
Situations because traditional therapy, you know, we're going
42:15
to talk about like, you're going to just talk about how it's
42:18
fucking shit. Like, yeah, I'm about to die.
42:20
Fucking brilliant. This is unfair.
42:22
Like it's, it's, it might work for some people, but I doubt it.
42:26
It's going to, it's very difficult to get to that level
42:29
of acceptance if you can get there.
42:31
But then something like that where you can tap into
42:34
something, I guess that's a bit more, I don't know.
42:38
It takes your mind off things, doesn't it?
42:39
I suppose. It does, yeah.
42:41
Yeah. And The thing is the way that
42:45
art therapy started in the very beginning.
42:47
So this is going back to like the 1940s, believe it or not,
42:51
Adrian Hill, he's a big name and the person that first termed the
42:55
phrase art therapy in the UK. And it was around similar time
42:59
frame that America did the same, but with another person called
43:03
Margaret Normberg and Adrian Hill, he actually used art
43:07
therapy for patients that were battling tuberculosis.
43:12
And so this was after obviously the World War and basically he
43:18
shared the use of art making as a form of escape.
43:22
And he would suggest that it's like an art germ so it can
43:26
combat all these other germs and that were plaguing your psyche.
43:30
You meant, you know, your brain, everything that's going off, you
43:32
know, with your mental health and stuff.
43:34
But also it could combat stuff with the physicality of
43:37
patients, you know, how their posture would change, how they
43:41
would go about life and things like that.
43:43
And it, you know, he promoted it to be a healing process.
43:47
So it is used quite a lot with, you know, people like in Hospice
43:52
and stuff like that. It is used for our all out.
43:54
But in terms of patients or clients like that rather, it has
43:59
seen quite a significant growth with those people.
44:05
Yeah, I mean, I think you'd hit the nail on the head there.
44:08
It is escapism. I could think of times when I've
44:10
had like the worst times ever and I just grabbed my guitar and
44:13
started playing. It didn't fix the problem, but
44:18
it kind of soothes you in a way, I suppose, yeah.
44:22
Exactly. It does.
44:24
And you know, there's lots of different theories that go along
44:26
with it as well. There's obviously psychology
44:28
theories that go into it. So you have typical big names
44:31
like Freud, for example, there's a big theory of transference
44:36
that is applied in art therapy where you have transference and
44:41
counter transference where so the transference is you
44:44
transferring an emotion or an experience or something on to
44:47
somebody else. And the counter transference is
44:50
there counter transferring and back with what they've like
44:54
processed and got from what you've passed over and and
44:57
they've took this and gone right.
45:00
So I'm going to ask you like, oh, so why did you make it like
45:03
this? Or, you know, you've mentioned
45:05
this person. Can you tell me a bit more about
45:07
that person? You know, lots of openness and
45:10
everything like that. There's none.
45:13
The biggest fear, the fairest who I personally swinging away
45:17
towards him is a young cargo stuff young.
45:21
So he actually had quite a good friendship with Freud,
45:25
ironically, but they actually had a falling out towards the
45:29
end because they differed on their views and everything like
45:33
that. But what Jung's kind of accepts
45:37
is that this stuff in the unconscious that gets brought
45:40
forward. So it's the stuff that we've
45:41
pushed back essentially, and we don't want to deal with it and
45:43
it's not in the forefront of our mind, but actually it is back
45:47
there. And it does come forth in all
45:49
these different images and ways that we approach life as well,
45:54
which is quite interesting. But yeah, it's essentially a
45:57
form of escapism. By doing that it by allowing
46:02
yourself to escape, it naturally brings stuff forward that you
46:06
weren't expecting to be brought forward.
46:09
What has art therapy taught you about life?
46:14
It's not obviously, it's not cookie cutter, it's not simple.
46:16
It's never like that. There's always something to
46:19
somebody as well. It's honestly, and it's the most
46:22
simplest lessons ever, but it's true.
46:25
And I think it's like giving me a greater understanding of it
46:27
now. So because like I would
46:30
honestly, when I look at the stuff that I was doing and
46:32
everything like that, I'd be like, yeah, I've just done this
46:35
because, oh, I like the way it moved or whatever and I like the
46:37
colours. But then I'll go, oh, actually I
46:40
can see why I've got such repetition with this.
46:45
And actually I can identify that with that partner life and oh,
46:47
actually I have been pushing this back in my mind and so on.
46:50
And, you know, we're not all perfect and we're all flawed in
46:53
a way and everything like that. But also it's taught me that,
46:57
you know, anyone can be creative as well.
47:01
You don't have to be, you know, an amazing artist like Van Gogh
47:04
or whatever. Anyone has the capability to
47:07
create something. It doesn't matter what your
47:11
skill ability is. We all have that ability to
47:14
create, and that process itself can be something that can be one
47:21
of the most relieving to do, but yeah.
47:25
What's the worst advice you've ever received?
47:27
In terms of my journey and so on, it's all going to go back to
47:31
stuff like in terms of art, it's to do with stuff at school and
47:34
things I was told. So for example, I got told I
47:37
couldn't create art if I couldn't buy sketchbook that day
47:40
because I didn't have the money for it.
47:43
And I was just like, I can create art though, because any
47:47
technically anything can be art. If you think about it, that was.
47:51
Did you say, did you say the line like, oh, anything can be
47:54
art? No, no, it's not teenager me.
47:57
It should have done. But no, she was like, well, if
48:02
you can't buy a sketchbook, you can't do art.
48:05
And I was it. Wow.
48:07
Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was a statement.
48:11
And I was just like, OK, and just like, was in shock and, you
48:17
know, made me naturally upset at the time looking back on teenage
48:21
me back then. But then I in a way, I proved
48:25
her wrong later because then I went on to create art that
48:28
didn't need a sketchbook. So, you know, it was just
48:32
interesting. And, you know, I've been taught,
48:35
and there's lots of different things like that that have come
48:38
up about misconceptions with art and everything in general, which
48:42
obviously naturally feeds into art therapy.
48:44
Like, I got told that something I thought was painted in what I
48:48
thought I painted in love. I got told in a classroom full
48:52
of peers that what I painted was actually not painted in love.
48:56
And I was just like, what? The fuck is that?
48:59
So I was talking about, you know, this reminded me of my
49:02
family and like getting to see both of my parts of my family
49:06
because like, I basically painted a road sign and this
49:08
road sign would be right. I'm halfway to seeing my mum or
49:12
I'm halfway to seeing my dad. So when I looked at that sign,
49:15
it was on close to seeing them or whatever.
49:19
And they said to me and they were like, I don't think you
49:21
painted that in love. And it wrecked me.
49:24
And that was so that's such a. Bullshit thing to say to.
49:27
Someone thank you. It's not.
49:29
Pain in love like. Yeah, you.
49:31
Know about that? What?
49:33
Do you mean? Yeah, and not pain in love.
49:34
And you can imagine it was in a group full of peers.
49:37
This was my first year at university doing my fine art
49:40
degree. This was and it wrecked me.
49:44
And ironically, I refused to pick up a paintbrush for the
49:47
rest of my degree. I didn't pick up a bright
49:49
paintbrush again until 2020 during lockdown.
49:52
And then I went back to painting because that was the one thing
49:55
that got me through COVID, was doing art ironically.
49:59
And now I'm doing art therapy. But yeah, it completely put me
50:05
off. And from that, I was just like,
50:10
you know, saying comments like that, that's like one of the
50:15
worst things you can do. That's one of the worst things
50:17
that you can say. And I've took that as a bit of
50:19
advice to myself of going forward in these sessions when
50:22
I'm with clients, I won't approach, I will never approach
50:26
it in that manner. I will never do that.
50:29
This is why anytime I meet someone and they're a bit
50:32
younger than me, or not necessarily younger, but like
50:36
you've seen in some of my streams, sometimes you get
50:39
people like, oh, should I do this?
50:41
Should I get into this? And I'm like, yeah, fucking go
50:44
for it. Do it.
50:45
Do the thing, you know, oh, what if it doesn't work out?
50:47
Who cares? Let's just try because I, you
50:50
know, like yourself, I had a similar school experience and I,
50:55
I saw, I saw people get spoken to that way.
50:59
I got spoken to that way. And, you know, it really begs
51:04
like when you put it into context, it's like, OK, the
51:06
people teaching you didn't want to be there.
51:08
They were getting drunk in the middle of the day and they were
51:10
hungover and they were just in a shit mood and they're taking out
51:13
and rejecting shit onto you. Like I had teachers talking
51:15
about like their failing marriages and projecting their
51:19
fucking hatred for children on. It's like why the fuck are you
51:22
in teaching? Yeah, like what's?
51:24
Wrong with you. But then, you know, they just
51:26
all the teachers are gonna come at me.
51:27
But it's like the old saying, those who can't teach, you know,
51:32
and don't get me wrong, there are some amazing teachers out
51:34
there. And I've spoken about shout out
51:37
to Mr. Nelly, my business teacher, who like really just
51:40
changed a lot for me. There are those amazing human
51:42
beings that absolutely were born to be teachers and then and
51:45
other things in life. And then you've got these people
51:47
who just have no business being anywhere near teaching.
51:51
And it's because of shit like that.
51:53
It's like, you know, maybe sometimes you can remember the
51:57
specific words said to us, but a lot of the time it's like you
52:00
might not remember what was said, but you remember how it
52:02
made you feel. Yeah.
52:04
I know I've had that over the years.
52:05
I've had people close to me, family members, whoever, just
52:10
say things to me like, you know, your heads in the clouds, you're
52:15
tone deaf, you'll never be able to sing.
52:18
And you know, you just keep proving people wrong.
52:20
And then it becomes because I think the key with this as well,
52:24
for anyone listening who has either gone through this or
52:27
going through this, the key is to not be bitter.
52:31
Take the thing that hurt you, work at it.
52:34
Prove whoever wrong, they ultimately won't care.
52:36
They probably won't remember they even said that to you.
52:38
Like if you found that teacher just for argument's sake and
52:41
you're like, how dare you say this?
52:43
Like you said this to me, They'd be like, who are you?
52:47
Oh, sorry. Oh, did I say that?
52:49
Like because people like that don't think.
52:51
They just say shit and then don't worry about the
52:53
consequences. But that's the thing.
52:55
It's like it affects people on such a big level.
52:58
Like This is why they say that words are power, because you
53:01
never know what your words, like how much gravity your words have
53:06
with the person you know. Your words could like, change
53:08
someone's life, or give them the hope they need to keep going, or
53:13
inspire them to do something fantastic, or even just push
53:16
them in the right direction, you know, or remind them of
53:19
something you know. Like, there's so much to it.
53:22
There really is. Yeah, there definitely is.
53:24
But like, and I learned with that experience, it put me off
53:28
painting. But then later I came back to it
53:32
and I embraced it. And if it wasn't for painting, I
53:35
wouldn't have got to worry. I'm now ironically enough, and
53:39
it's just like, it's a big fuck you in a way, as I like to say
53:44
to myself. And then the other Yeah.
53:48
And then with the whole sketchbook fiasco, I've proven
53:52
I'm like, I don't need a sketchbook.
53:53
Christ, I used to do performance art.
53:55
Like if anything can you know you should.
53:58
Write a book and that be the title, I think.
54:01
I think. There's no need to.
54:02
Yeah, definitely. Don't need a sketchbook to.
54:07
Yeah. What's the best advice you've
54:10
ever received? It sounds so stupid and simple,
54:13
but just take a moment to breathe because that is
54:18
something that I've been learning a lot.
54:21
It's just to take a moment to breathe because sometimes I can
54:23
get really caught up in something and just go.
54:26
And I go on this tangent and keep going.
54:29
And I've been learning to take a step back and just sit for a
54:32
minute and just breathe, digest. And then I've gone, right?
54:38
Actually, my thoughts are a bit more together now.
54:41
And I'm not going to go in this big tangent and whatever, go
54:44
with the wind. And that's the best bit of
54:47
advice I can give genuinely, is to just take that moment, you
54:51
know, because there's so many things that can clog your brain.
54:57
And this is anybody that's just taking that moment for yourself,
55:01
just to have that time. And it is essentially processing
55:05
time, but just having that, it can make things a lot clearer.
55:10
To be fair, if you don't breathe you'll die so.
55:13
Yeah, that as well. But yeah, because I'd be like,
55:19
see all these things in one breath.
55:21
It's, it's, it's true. I've been, I've been trying it
55:23
out recently. Like sometimes when I have like
55:27
really stressful days at work, it's like I, I always
55:31
disassociate when I'm there anyway because I just can't
55:33
believe it's my life. But I'm like, sometimes I'm
55:37
trying to, I guess centre myself, and so I'll do it.
55:43
And it does actually work a little bit, like not completely
55:46
because I'm still in hell, but it's, I don't know, it's like
55:50
someone threw a little bit of water over you for a second and
55:53
you weren't burning, you know? Yes.
55:56
It's like, yeah. Just alleviates the pressure in
55:59
a way, as simple as that is. What's the biggest life lesson
56:03
you've learned so far? That I am flawed and that's
56:06
fine, genuinely. I mean, a lot of people, that's
56:11
a hard one to accept that, you know?
56:15
Yeah, essentially because we all have a flaws, you know, there's
56:18
always going to be something essentially, you know, there's
56:21
no such thing as a perfect person.
56:24
There's no such thing as the ideal, you know, And with me
56:29
going through this journey, particularly because I'm going
56:32
to, I'm being in this career where I'm helping people with
56:35
their problems and it's like, Oh well, if I'm helping people,
56:41
surely I have to be 100% fine, no?
56:46
It's not like all therapists are in therapy I've heard.
56:50
Something about before, yeah. So it is something that's
56:54
actually recommended, Yeah. Because, you know, sometimes you
56:58
can be doing therapy sessions and you'd be fine.
57:00
Sometimes someone can say something as a client in that
57:03
session, and it actually trigger you in some weird way.
57:09
And so then you need to go and deal with that and figure out
57:11
why that triggered a response in you, why that made you feel that
57:15
way. And I have come to be able to
57:20
identify, you know, the things in my life that are, I'd, I'd
57:26
say flaws, but it's just, it's life experiences and so on.
57:31
And these are the caveats that I have due to those life
57:34
experiences. But I've come to accept them.
57:40
And, you know, sometimes they'll get the better of me, like any
57:43
normal human being. Sometimes I'm able to process
57:46
that and deal with it and move along.
57:49
It's just one of those things. Do you have any upcoming
57:53
projects or final thoughts that you'd like to share with our
57:55
listeners? At the minute I'm just studying
57:59
away, so working hard. Oh, bless you.
58:04
So I'm currently doing my masters.
58:06
I am trying to work on a new piece of body of work and stuff
58:10
at the minute. So we'll be doing that and
58:14
hopefully I'm trying to, I'm trying to do more stuff.
58:18
That's like advocating essentially the stuff to do with
58:22
art therapy, but also health in general.
58:24
That's been a big thing of mine. Women's house has always been a
58:26
big health of mine. So lots of stuff in there burner
58:30
with that. But yeah.
58:32
Thank you very much for coming on the show once again and
58:35
discussing art therapy with us. For those who don't know, Gemma
58:38
was on the show earlier last year.
58:41
I. Think so, yeah.
58:43
Time is a construct. I don't know.
58:46
It's been so many. It's been 6 years of this show
58:48
now. Six years.
58:50
Well done 6. Years.
58:52
That's an achievement in itself. Something, No.
58:59
Anyway, I implore you to go check out that show as well,
59:03
give you some sort of more background context on Gemma, her
59:06
work or her and everything in between.
59:09
Yeah, thanks again once again for being on the show.
59:11
Real, real pleasure. Thank you.
59:14
And to all the listeners of the Christian Reeve podcast, as
59:16
always, be safe, be well, and I'll see you in another life
59:21
when we are both cats. Goodbye.