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What Lindsay Clancey's Case Reveals About The Gaps In Postpartum Care | Capítulo 280 · Locatora Radio [A Radiophonic Novela]

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Her defense says that she was in the grips of
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: bipolar disorder and postpartum psychosis, which, for those listening, is
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: a rare post pregnancy condition that can alter a woman's
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: sense of reality, and in fact, a forensic psychiatrist diagnosed
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Clancy with those conditions after the killings.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: This case definitely shines a light on what postpartum psychosis is.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: What this case has also revealed is that there's very
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: little research, very little funding, very little information about postpartum psychosis.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: It does affect one to two one thousand people after
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: giving birth, so that is a considerably low number, but
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: because of lack of resources and funding and research, the
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: women and people who do have postpartum psychosis are not
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: receiving the proper dignosis or care. Ola I'm Theosa and
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: I'm Mala. You're listening to Loka Thoa Radio.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: A radiophonic novella.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Which is just an extra way of saying a podcast.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Today's episode is rather heavy, so a quick content warning
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: for all those listening and watching. Today we are going
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: to be talking about the case of Lindsey Clancy. This
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: episode will include discussions of postpartum psychosis, violence, infanticide and
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: the like. So if you need to take a break
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: or skip this episode for this week, please take care
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: of yourself.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: So we don't often cover national, nationwide cases, but I
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: think this one in particular, we felt really cold to
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: talk about because there's so many layers when it comes
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: to women's health, postpartum care or lack thereof, and I
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: think that was one of the reasons we wanted to
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: pay extra attention to this case on Look at Thora
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: this week. And like many things they gain nationwide attention,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: there's somewhat of a virality that happens to these types
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: of cases. We talked about this phenomenon a couple seasons
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: ago during the Johnny deubcase and how we saw folks
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: online talking about Amber heard even though she was not
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: the one on trial.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: When women have been at the center and have been
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: victimized or maybe unfairly blamed, and there are broader societal
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: questions at play, we bring it onto the show to dissect.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, So that's what we'll be doing here today.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: And today's conversation is a mix of questions and observations
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: based on what's happening with this mother. Lindsay Clancy thirty
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: six years old from Massachusetts. She has pled not guilty
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: to murder charges in the death of her children. Caylin
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Dawson and Cora Clancy had children ranging from eight months
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: to five years old, so three kids under the age
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: of six, and unfortunately, she was suffering from a series
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: of depressions and mental health issues after the birth of
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: her youngest child. She was seeking out psychiatric help, inpatient treatment,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: outpatient treatment, and eventually she killed all three of her children.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: And at play here is the question of whether she voluntarily,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: knowingly maliciously killed her children or if she was suffering
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: from a postpartum psychosis that was improperly treated and improperly
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: managed by her team of health care professionals. So there
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: are big conversations about women's health, the health of mothers,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: mental health for mothers, the village that it takes for
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: women to raise their children safely, and also the culpability
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: in cases like this of mothers who do unfortunately take
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: the lives of their children. And the trial is being
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: broadcast out of Masschusets.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: I think one of the really striking things about this
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: case in particular is that we see a woman and
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: there's a couple of cases where there are women who
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: have access to healthcare, have access to psychiatric care in particular,
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: they're still improperly diagnosed or they're misdiagnosed. And I think
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: that is also one of the striking things, because we
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: know that there's health inequities in this country, So when
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: someone like Lindsay Clancy who has the care and is
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: still failed, it really raises up a mirror, I think,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: to the US, to the healthcare system that we have
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: in the society that we live in, and how we
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: really don't care for mothers when someone with this much
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: access and privilege is still failed.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and Lindsay Clancy was a labor and delivery nurse,
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: so she herself is a healthcare professional in labor and
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: delivery and is a middle class white woman from Massachusetts
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: at the time, with a husband and a family support system,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: and like you said, access to mental health resources, to
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: a team of psychiatrists and nurses and in patient treatment facilities. However,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: things get complicated with her care because, as we're learning
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: throughout the trial, she was attempting to receive help and
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: was also being turned away that she wasn't qualifying for
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: certain programs and certain types of treatment, and although she
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: was expressing these desires to harm herself and harm her children,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: she also wasn't meeting the criteria for suicidal ideation or
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: for like a fifty one to fifty psychiatric hold. So
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: it's like she was clearly reaching out for help. She
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: was clearly seeking out psychiatric help. She was trying to
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: check herself in, but was also not being received completely
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: and wasn't completely meeting criteria for more severe interventions. Her
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: defense says that she was in the grips of bipolar
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: disorder and postpart psychosis, which, for those listening, is a
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: rare post pregnancy condition that can alter a woman's sense
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: of reality, and in fact, a forensic psychiatrist diagnosed Clancy
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: with those conditions after the killings.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: This case definitely shines a light on what postpartum psychosis is.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: What this case has also revealed is that there's very
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: little research, very little funding, very little information about postpartum psychosis.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: It does affect one to two one thousand people after
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: giving birth, so that is a considerably low number, but
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: because of lack of resources and funding and research, the
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: women who the women and people who do have postpartum
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: psychosis are not receiving the proper diagnosis or care.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: And in this case, although she did seek out a
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: team of psychiatrists, she was prescribed a variety of medication
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: and different parts of the trial, we're learning up to
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: eleven to thirteen different types of psychiatric medications were prescribed
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: to her at different times over the course of several months.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: The trial includes cross examination of her healthcare team psychiatrists,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: nurses whose role in her care and the eventual murder
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: of her children are being called into question, and Clancy's
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: attorneys say that Clancy did everything she possibly could to
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: seek out help. She turned to multiple outpatient providers, she
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: tried the drugs that they prescribed, she called a suicide hotline,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: She went to the emergency room, and wasn't accepted into
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: a hospital based full day treatment program for women with
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: post pregnancy mental health problems. She even checked herself into
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: a psychiatric hospital for several days, and instead of improving
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: her condition, worsened under the cocktail of psychiatric medications she
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: was prescribed, and some of them have been identified as
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: problem for bipolar patients. And that's something that her attorneys
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: and family are very adamant about that she was being
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: mistreated in her course of care.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel it's really important to also state,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: and you know, on a personal level, I've shared on
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: this podcast that I have I'm newly on medication. I'm
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: on an antidepressant, and it took several months for me
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: to feel like myself again or to feel better and
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: trying different medication. So this woman who was trying these
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: different medications is different combination as well. At the same time,
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's really hard to track when you're taking
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: multiple things that are brand new. You don't know which
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: one's affecting you if you're taking multiple new things. So
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: there's I think also considering the time that it takes
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: for different medications to really take effect. Psychiatric medication usually
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: takes up to five weeks, up to six weeks to
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: really see a difference, and so it's clear that in
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: the immediate the medication was not making a difference for her,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: and so I think that is another a thing that's
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: being highlighted in this case as well.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: Right, were they prescribing too many new things too soon?
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: Was she not giving the medication a chance to adjust
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: to her system, or was she being rushed into trying
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: new meds. Were her doses being adjusted prematurely, was she
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: following the doctor's orders and taking the meds as prescribed.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of questions about not only
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: the way that her doctors were prescribing, but also if
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: she was following through with the medical recommendations. Yeah.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: I mean to be clear, we are not psychiatrists, we
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: are not doctors. But from my personal experience, I can
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: say sometimes they make you feel worse before you feel better.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: And so I think that a lot of just anecdotal
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: examples that I've heard from folks that are on medication
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: is that you feel so so bad that you do
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: want to get off of it, and you're not giving
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: your brain and your body a chance to really adjust
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: because it feels so bad. And I think that that's
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: often the case for folks that get on and get
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: off without even letting their doctor know, Like I'm getting
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: off of it because it feels so horrible, right.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: It also seems to me that there's also the piece
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: about the stress and the burden in this case of
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: taking care of three children under the age of six,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: And I just wonder if there was relief for her
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: because over the course of this trial. What we're learning
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: is she was writing like long Facebook posts pleading for
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: help and trying to find people who could relate to
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: her and her difficulties that she was facing raising her
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: three children. She was journaling about how exhausted she was
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: and how stressed out she was. And I am curious
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: to know, aside from the medical piece at home, like
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: what sort of help was being provided to her. Was
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: she being given breaks, Was there some other form of
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: help from her husband, from the father of her children,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: from their extended family, their support system to give her
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: time to rest and to help with the childcare. Because
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: I think that, of course, right now, the question is
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: about the mental illness, the psychosis, the meds. But I
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: think that there's a bigger picture to be painted here
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: about what mothers need when they're struggling, and it's not
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: just mental health care and treatment and meds. I think
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: it's also the at home support system.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and I think it highlights not just
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: the mental health piece that you just mentioned, but also
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: like the societal failures right from the supposed village that
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: we are supposed to have, right or. I think there's
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: also this expectation for mothers to just suffer in silence
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: to just deal with it. And from what you know,
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: my own research right about motherhood vote from what I've
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: learned about mothers sharing their experience is that they don't
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: necessarily want to talk about publicly about the quote downside
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: or just the challenges of being a mother, especially to
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: a newborn. And so I can imagine a situation where
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: she's was completely siloed. Maybe she was talking on social media,
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: but was she talking to her direct circle of support?
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: I think is a big question as well.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, And because so we're talking about postpartum psychosis, which
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: is I think the most severe on the range of
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: postpartum mental health issues. And before you get to a
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: postpartum psychosis, there are mothers who experience postpartum depression. And
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: my understanding is at a big piece of the postpartum
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: depression is feelings of worthlessness as a mother, feelings of failure.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: There's isolate involved because a lot of mothers are spending
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: most of their day alone with their new baby while
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: their partners are working and other people are out doing
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: their thing. New moms tend to be alone with their
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: babies for long periods of time, and that depression can
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: make it very difficult to do everyday tasks and it
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: can be very debilitating. And then before the postpartum depression,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: there's postpartum blues, which is more like a change in
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: mood and feeling maybe agitated, and that might have a
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: little bit more to do with your hormonal changes in
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: the days after giving birth, and it's not quite as
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: debilitating as a depression. So there's like a range of
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: experiences that new mothers might encounter after giving birth, and
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: it's really really common. It's really common, and I think,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: like to your point, when you're a new mother, I
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: think there's this expectation that this is the happiest time
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: in your life, and this is your new baby, and
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: your new baby is the love of your life, and
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: it's a love like you've never felt before, and it's
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: supposed to be nothing but joy. But then there are
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: these other factors that come into play that I think
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: can probably be very i don't know, difficult for a
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: woman to acknowledge that I'm not that happy. I'm struggling,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: like I need help and my baby is stressing me out.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think this new generation of mothers who
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: are creating content at least or writing about motherhood in particular,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: are really speaking to that of the challenges and it's
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: not just this beautiful bliss, it's this change of identity,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: even acknowledging pregnancy as a type of trauma, and how
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: it takes years for folks who give birth to feel
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: like themselves again and feeling like there was a huge
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: transformation that happened. And so I think that is one
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: of the things I've seen online in particular, is how
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: this generation of mothers are really shining light and really
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: speaking to their own experience that pushes back against this
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: narrative that motherhood is like the most beautiful thing in
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: the world it can be.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: But also it's this, Yeah, it's a trauma to the body,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: and it's a complete change in your social life. And
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Lindsay Clancy, apparently over the course of this trial, we've
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: also learned that she was writing and expressing that she
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: just wanted to go back to work and be herself
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: again and feel like herself again. So I think that's
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: speaking to that phenomenon. Yeah, it's a complete change and identity.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: And I can't imagine I haven't done it, we haven't
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: done imagined.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, let's name the elephant in the room.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: We're both not mothers, but we have loved ones who
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: are mother We have mothers, and we have friends who
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: have become mothers, and we care about women's health. Don't
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: go anywhere locomotives can be right back, and the lack
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: of care that mothers and children receive in particular in
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: this country. And so this is why this also matters
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: to us. We don't have to have the identity to
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: also care about mental health and postpartum care.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Oh absolutely. And it's sort of the path that we
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: might be on one day and who knows, like we
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: might have kids one day, and then we will be
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: faced maybe with similar circumstances and experiences and facing our own,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: you know, issues in light of new motherhood. So I
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: think like when it happens to one woman, the possibility
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: is that it could happen, oh yeah, to any other woman.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: It can happen to you, It could happen to me,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: It could happen to our listeners. And I'm sure that
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: we have listeners because I know we have listeners who
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: our mothers, who perhaps can relate to some of the
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: things that we're talking about today, whether it's the postpartum
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: blues or full on postpartum depression, or just feelings of isolation,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: feelings of being a completely different person and adopting a
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: new identity and how hard that must be.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I read this article that was just published in Vogue,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: and the writer talks about her own experience with postpartum psychosis.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: A few months after giving birth, she was taking the
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: train home to New York City and she started to
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: feel like everyone was following her. Everyone on the subway
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: was like out to get her. And then when she
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: got home, she felt like her husband was out to
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: get her. And she had a very supportive partner where
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: he immediately jumped into action called her psychiatrist. She was
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: able to get incredible care. She was treated at a
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: psychiatric hospital and every few hours her doctors would ask
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: her a question. And she really believed that she was
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: a prophet, and so when they were asking her, these
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: questions would go by and her answer wouldn't change. They
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: knew like, Okay, we haven't found exactly what it is yet.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Eventually they were able to give her the diagnosis of
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: postpartum psychosis, and she was able to get better and
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: she's able to identify so much with Lindsay Clancy, and
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: she writes this essay and she's one example of how
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: she got the care that she needed and it didn't
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: lead to this tragedy. And she had the supportive partner
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: and the right care team that really gave her not
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: only the emotional and mental support, but the psychiatric support
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: that she needed.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so tough to look at these two women
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: side by side because it looks like Lindsay Clancy tried
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: so hard and sought after that care and just didn't
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: get She didn't get what she needed.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: I think that's one of the reasons this case has
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: really caught the attention that it has is that I
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: think women in particular are really seeing how sad this is.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: I don't think I've seen anybody deny her guilt right
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: or deny her actions of what she did. I think
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: more so really understanding and having a lot of sympathy
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: for what she was going through and of course for
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: the children and their lives, but also considering that she
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: tried so hard to get care and it failed.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Part of this is the legal piece of it, in
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: that there is the legal question of intent, and in
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: this country, women who kill their children the question is
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: was it malicious and on purpose or were they suffering
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: from a postpart of mental health issue? And it's that's
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: what they're teasing out, is was she sick enough that
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: she be we can find her guilty by reason of
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: insanity or is she not meeting our legal criteria and
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: standards for being considered like legally insane and incapacitated in
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: the moment when she killed her kids. And in my
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: research for this case, what I found is that most
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: other countries that are considered like developed nations, when a
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: mother kills her children and the child is under the
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: age of five, it is assumed that she was suffering
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: from a postpartum psychosis or depression and is put into
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: a treatment facility and is not criminally charged like in
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: places like New Zealand, South Africa and the UK, when
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: these things happen, the woman is not put on trial
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: and charged with a crime. Here, However, in the United States,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: like our legal system and our medical definitions are two
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: very different sets of criteria. So while there is a
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: medical criteria for what qualifies someone as able to be
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: diagnosed with like a postpartum psychosis, like this forensic psychiatrist
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: diagnosed her with postpartum psychosis. You know, the medical professional said, yes,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: she has it, she had it. But the legal definitions
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: for insanity are different than the clinical like diagnoses for
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: a psychosis. So although it's been determined by a doctor
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: that she has the thing, the law still has to
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: find for itself whether or not she's legally culpable for
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: what she did, which I think is like a really
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: key piece of all of this, and like why a
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: mother is on trial and she's not the only one.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: There have been other mothers who have been taken to
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: trial for killing their children. In twenty fifteen, here in California,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: in Torrance, a Latina, Carol Coronado, was convicted of a first
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: degree murder for killing her three daughters. There's a twenty
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: twenty article from NPR kqed the California report was recently republished,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: and there's renewed conversation around not only postpartum psychosis, but
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Carol Coronado and her case because, unlike Lindsay Clancy, Carol
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Godonado didn't seek out mental health care, she didn't seek
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: out psychiatric help. I think back then even more so,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: there was even less awareness around postpartum issues and postpartum psychosis.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: So she pled not guilty by reason of insanity for
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: the murders of her three daughters. And it was only
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: after she was in custody that several psychiatric experts said
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: that Carol Godnado was psychotic when she killed her three daughters.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: But in California, proving insanity is a moral test and
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: not a clinical one. And this actually has really interesting
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: legal orgs that go all the way back to the
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: killing of Harvey Milk and the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Because those men who like the man John Hinckley, who
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: attempted to assassinate Ronald Reagan, he pled not guilty by
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: reason of insanity, and he was not put into prison,
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: he was put into a mental health facility. And there
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: was like outrage all over the country, and then laws
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: throughout the country in different states were changed to make
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: it much more difficult to use insanity as a defense,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: and in the state of California was something similar happened
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: when Harvey Milk and the mayor of San Francisco at
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: the time were killed. But the man who killed Harvey
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Milk also pled not guilty by reason of insanity and
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: also did not go to prison, and at the time
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: there were riots in San Francisco because of it. So
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: in California, it's very, very, very very tough to use
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: that as defense. And in the case of Carol Coronado, again,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: where the doctors found her to have been psychotic at
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: the time that she killed her kids, that wasn't enough
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: for her to be found not guilty or for the
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: insanity plea to kick in, and she was convicted of
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: murder and sent to prison. And what I think is
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: really interesting is Carol's husband, Rudy Goronado, he stood by her.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: There's footage online from the press conference outside of the trial,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: outside of the courthouse, and the reporters are asking him,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: you know, did you see signs that there was something
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: going on with your wife before she killed the girls?
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: And he said that he saw the signs, but he
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: didn't know what they were. He didn't know what to
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: do with them. He didn't have any awareness, He had
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: no idea that postpartum issues were a thing, or that
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: postpartum psychosis existed. And he identified like a lack of
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: education and a lack of awareness as being the culprit
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: and the key problem here, like he didn't blame her
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: because he knew basically she was out of her mind.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: And in that press conference he speaks to the need
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: to raise awareness and to make parents aware of the
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: signs and symptoms so that people can seek out help,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: which I think is really amazing for him, but also
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: extremely sad, you know, because these two cases are so
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: different in that Lindsay Clancy sought out treatment, she was
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: receiving treatment, but it wasn't enough and it still ended
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: in tragedy. And this woman, Carol, she didn't know, she
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: didn't seek out treatment and it ended in tragedy. And
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: so like what is the solution? You know, these are
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: two extremes. And I think about like new parents and
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: expecting mothers, how people have to take like Lama's classes
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: and parenting classes. And I think a case like this
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: could be a watershed moment where this type of prenatal
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: education is required to be made aware of the signs
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: the symptoms of postpartum blues, postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis so
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: people know when to seek out.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: How Yeah, definitely, I mean yeah, I think I mean
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: the case that you mentioned, and then of course this
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: case with Lindsay Clancy, and also my research, I saw
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: how there is like a racial disparity in sentencing and
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: who gets nationwide attention. And there was this write up
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: in The New Yorker from twenty twenty three where the
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: journalist talks about the rights about the Lindsay Clancy case,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: but also references and talks to black mothers and their
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: spouses who also were experiencing postpartum psychosis. And in one case,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: in particular, the this woman in New York, she does
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: kill her three children. She's a black woman, and the
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: same thing, her husband stands by her and he crowdfunds
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: for her. Of the fifteen thousand goal on GoFundMe, they
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: only reach eight thousand, and he very much echoed the
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: same sentiment he didn't know what the signs were and
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: he was going to stand by her. Now we have
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Patrick Clancy, who actually received like a million dollars in
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: support by the public. Because one got national attention and
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: another didn't. And so there are we talked about at
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: the top of the episode, the health equity piece, and
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: there's also a racial equity piece too of who gets
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: to even be seen as like a victim of psychosis?
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Right and who is instead incarcerated and not given that
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: same sympathy or empathy or even reason of insanity.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, there's a disparities at all angles here curtently, and
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: it's so scary and difficult to digest and difficult to
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: tease out, difficult to understand. And I hope that there's
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: some some shift nationally.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, I mean, it would be great
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: if we in this country could get paid parntal leave
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: in a substantial one because I think even what does
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: exist now, and if you do have it, it's like
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: six weeks, and I think a lot of it is
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: dependent on like the company that you work for and
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: what they're able to give you. So I think one
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: is like paid parental leave, right, health care for all, right,
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: access to psychiatric care for everyone. And I think until
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: we have those systemic shifts, we have to call back
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: in community care. And if you have a mother in
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: your neighborhood, in your community, a new mother, like how
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: can we show up for her? How can you also
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: be part of her village?
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: And I think the realities of being a part of
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: someone's village is sometimes being inconvenienced, like being providing care
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: is not always like fun and beautiful and like instagrammable.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: You know, it's like showing up like even when you've
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: had a bad day, but you know, like that person
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: really needs your support right now. And I was also
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: thinking about a birth worker and postpartum worker, postpartum care worker, Banketsani,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: who we've had on Senora Sex and folks may know
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: her as Indie Himama, and she published a book about
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: She published a book about postpartum and it's called Thriving
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Postpartum and it's about la guarentina and so in indigenous
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: practices and it's still practiced today, there's this concept of
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: being like under quarantine if you're a new mother for
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: forty days, and it's one like relinquishing like your self
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: to like complete and total care buy your community, and
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: it's there's there's quite a few rules, but the ones
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: that I know, it's like you can't take cold showers,
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: you have to eat warm food, you have to have
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: your feet covered, you have to have your your tummy wrapped,
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: your faha, your faha, and so there's all these different
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: things that you do during the quad and thina. And
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: so I think this book in particular is a resource
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: for one new parents. But two, like if you have
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: a homegirl that's going to have a baby, like, how
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: can you show up for her? You know, how can
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: you really be part of that system of care and
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: support when we know we have systemic failures, you know,
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: And I think that that's it's still on the individual,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: on the community, when there's no systemic change, when we
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: know we don't have you know, health care for all.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: We know, we don't have paid parental leaf for all.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: These are ways that I think we have to step
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: up as individuals. Don't go anywhere looking is We'll be
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: right back, you know.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting. And my mom did that when she
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: was recovering from childbirth, and she talks about it like,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: you know, you stay home for at least thirty days
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: and you don't like take the baby out for at
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: least thirty days so that the baby can like get
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: its bearings and get strong. And it's the same for
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: the mother. And it's a also protection from like you know,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: getting sick, right, and just like the elements. But the
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: way that you describe it kind of reminds me of
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: the way people show up after a death in the family.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: It's like the process for taking care of someone in
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: mourning and after delivery are very similar when life ends
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: and when life begins, going to the home and bringing food,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: helping to clean, you know, taking care of the person
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: in question who has lost some one or who has
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: just gained a baby. And it's just so fascinating the
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: way those two processes have so many similarities and how
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: the community is required the family is required to show
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: up in very very similar ways.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and not to be too tangential, but
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: there are death dulas. You know, we know birth doulas,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: but there's also a practice of death dulas, right, and
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: so being that the dula is that person helping the
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: dying one transition out of this realm and also helping
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: the family with the transition. So there is that life
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: and death, that energetic I think cycle that there's also
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: care workers who are enacting that and supporting the families
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: with that absolutely.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: And I think there are other models for how women
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: can be supported in a community setting when they're dealing
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: with their postpartum blues or their depression. So there's actually
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: a new documentary from BBC Louis Thureau spend some time
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: in UK specialist psychiatric units, which treat mothers experiencing serious
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: mental illness while also allowing them to live with their babies.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: So these women are able to take their babies with
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: them and live in a sort of community hospital setting
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: with other women and learn how to cope but also
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: how to mother through their illness, their depression, their anxiety,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: which I don't think and I have never heard of
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: anything like that here.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: I don't think that exists. And if it does, it's
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: probably very expensive. And you're a certain type of person, yeah,
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: someone with money, Yeah, a wealthy person.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: And so I encourage you guys to look into this
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: documentary if this topic is of interest to you, and
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: to read the book that Yosa just plugged, because I
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: think there are other ways of doing things, and the
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: way that we're doing things here, like so many other things,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: is just not working.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Work.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: There's other models, like, there's other ways to do things
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: and to fix this this.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Wound absolutely, and I think, you know, there's my friends
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: who have had babies, like I've joined like meal trains,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: you know, and that's I think one way that you
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: can support a new parent is by feeding them literally,
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: like if it's either dropping off meals or sending gift
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: cards so they can order food. I think that that's
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: one really big way that you can help. And I
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: think also establishing what that is before right the person
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: gives birth right, because then like everything changes, and so
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: I think having those expectations like of a friend of
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: your community member, I think is important so that you
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: can show up in ways that are needed.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: So important, and there's other resources out there. If you're
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: struggling yourself or you know somebody who's struggling, you can
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: reach the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at nine eight eight
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: and the Samaritan Statewide Hotline at eight seven seven eight
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: seven d hope. There's also the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: which can be reached at one eight three three TLC.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: Mama, well, this was a heavy episode.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Very heavy episode. Take care of yourselves. Thank you for listening,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: and we will catch you next time.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: Bans Us look Alumnia