Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Hot car baby death, Doc killed by patient's wife, 'Killer Clown' victim named

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Hot car baby death, Doc killed by patient's wife, 'Killer Clown' victim named · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel
0:10
Speaker 1: one thirty two. A Gatliber couple behind bars in Severe
0:15
Speaker 1: County facing murder charges after their two year old son
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Speaker 1: was left in a car overnight. Investigators suspect that that
0:21
Speaker 1: child was left Thursday afternoon, but that child wasn't found
0:25
Speaker 1: until two in the afternoon on Friday. A two year
0:28
Speaker 1: old child was left locked in a vehicle for at
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Speaker 1: least twelve and maybe as much as twenty four hours.
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Speaker 1: The parents can face fifty one years in prison, life
0:37
Speaker 1: without rule, or even the death penalty. It's not a
0:40
Speaker 1: legal stretch for a stated a to charge felony murder.
0:44
Speaker 1: The state is sending a message to parents, you have
0:47
Speaker 1: to be more responsible. The worst thing a parent could
0:50
Speaker 1: ever do is think that this wouldn't happen to them.
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Speaker 1: Found dead shortly before two p m. In the tour
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Speaker 1: ist mecca in the middle of the Smoky mountains, Gatlinburg, Tennessee.
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Speaker 1: What happened? The home where the baby was found coincidentally
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Speaker 1: belongs to Jerry Kirkman, the mayor of Westmoreland. It's a
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Speaker 1: small town in middle Tennessee. I Nancy Grace, this is
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Speaker 1: crime stories. Thank you for being with us. How did
1:27
Speaker 1: a todd boy die in front of the Mayor's house?
1:32
Speaker 1: How did that go down? The two year old little
1:36
Speaker 1: boy apparently died a heat stroke? Or did he? What
1:43
Speaker 1: will the autopsy reveal? And why was the baby abandoned? Well?
1:47
Speaker 1: For one reason, it was the mayor's grandson. Now does
1:52
Speaker 1: that clarify what happened? Or muddy the water? A two
1:58
Speaker 1: year old child found dead after apparently being left in
2:04
Speaker 1: a car overnight. Now let's imagine that just for a moment,
2:09
Speaker 1: and I say apparently dead from being left in a
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Speaker 1: car overnight. But how is it that nobody for an
2:18
Speaker 1: entire evening night, all night long until the afternoon, after
2:25
Speaker 1: lunch two o'clock the next day, nobody notices the baby's gone?
2:32
Speaker 1: Is that really what happened? Um? I don't know, but
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Speaker 1: I'm having a tough time in my world, in Nancy
2:39
Speaker 1: Grace world, understanding how your baby can be gone what
2:43
Speaker 1: twenty four hours and nobody notices? Then it turns up
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Speaker 1: dead in front of the Mayor's house with me senior
2:51
Speaker 1: news anchor from the Blaze Radio Network. Longtime friend Robin
2:57
Speaker 1: Willinski also joining me for the sick expert Joe Scott Morgan,
3:02
Speaker 1: professor at Jacksonville State University and death scene investigator who
3:07
Speaker 1: has traveled all around the country investigating homicide scenes. Both
3:13
Speaker 1: of you. Thank you for being with us. Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: I want to del v in with you, but I've
3:17
Speaker 1: got to establish the facts first, Robin, what exactly am
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Speaker 1: I missing? How does that happen? This is really bizarre
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Speaker 1: and it's heartbreaking. And I think that your theory that
3:26
Speaker 1: the baby might have been killed elsewhere and then been
3:29
Speaker 1: put in the car is definitely a possibility. What strikes
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Speaker 1: me about this story This is a neighborhood full of
3:36
Speaker 1: vacation rentals, as you mentioned, you know, and when you're
3:39
Speaker 1: in a neighborhood with vacation, Robbin, Robin, Robin, let me
3:43
Speaker 1: tell you something. When I was a little girl, all
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Speaker 1: the way up through high school, that was the big deal.
3:50
Speaker 1: Of course, you know, my dad worked for the railroad
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Speaker 1: Alan Alan Deep, just like your dad forty plus years.
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Speaker 1: My mom worked as an accountant for a big comp me.
4:00
Speaker 1: They would get off on Friday, Robin would get would
4:04
Speaker 1: get off five o'clock. The car would be packed and
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Speaker 1: would start driving, and our vacation was the weekend. We
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Speaker 1: would drive to Gatlinburg, Tennessee, would get there that night
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Speaker 1: just enough to walk up and down the strip, get
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Speaker 1: a caramel apple or a candy apple, see the smoky mountains.
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Speaker 1: Then would wake up there the next morning and we'd
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Speaker 1: spend all day Saturday and all day Sunday looking at
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Speaker 1: the smokey mountains and being every and every nook and
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Speaker 1: cranny of Gatlinburg, Tennessee. And then Sunday afternoon we drive
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Speaker 1: all the way back and that would be our family vacation. Okay,
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Speaker 1: And now my twins go to the beach for ten
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Speaker 1: days and they're like, I'm like, I cannot believe you
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Speaker 1: people anyway, So Gatalinburg, Tennessee. I haven't been there in
4:52
Speaker 1: a long time, but it was just yes, just what
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Speaker 1: you said. It's full of tourists because it's beautiful and
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Speaker 1: how could you miss a baby in the car, that's
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Speaker 1: the thing. I mean. I've been to the area myself,
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Speaker 1: and you know, you have the people. People are coming
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Speaker 1: and going, as we stated, Okay, so that's that's painting
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Speaker 1: a picture of the neighborhood of people coming and going,
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Speaker 1: vacation rentals, people are into their own thing. They don't
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Speaker 1: know who they don't know who's living next door, they
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Speaker 1: don't know what cars are parked in the driveway everyday. Nancy.
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Speaker 1: That's really the issue here, Robin Willinsky, You're right, people
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Speaker 1: coming and going, and there are a lot of rentals
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Speaker 1: and a lot of tourists, but in that kind of neighborhood,
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Speaker 1: which is very very nice. I mean, this home is
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Speaker 1: it's like a dream home up in the mountains. I'm
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Speaker 1: just very surprised that no one knew that. But forget
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Speaker 1: about the tourists or the neighbors. What about the family.
5:42
Speaker 1: What about the mom and the dad and the grandparents
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Speaker 1: or whoever put the baby in the car to start with.
5:49
Speaker 1: I've got another question, and I want to go to
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, how can we tell if
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Speaker 1: the baby died of heat stroke or the baby died
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Speaker 1: of some other reason and was set in the car. Well,
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Speaker 1: they're gonna play They're gonna play their cards really close
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Speaker 1: to the best here, Nancy. Relative to the examination, I
6:07
Speaker 1: can imagine that the that the state police are are
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Speaker 1: conducting toxicological examination on the child, they're not going to
6:14
Speaker 1: release a lot of information to begin with. But just
6:17
Speaker 1: from a practical standpoint, you're gonna be looking for signs
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Speaker 1: of first off dehydration, UH, the signs, for instance, that
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Speaker 1: the child was restrained and was probably vomiting in the car,
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Speaker 1: probably gas or intestinal problems relative to UH hyperthermia. UH.
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Speaker 1: The temperature at that point in time for both of
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Speaker 1: those days was in the high eighties outside of the car,
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Speaker 1: So you can add generally about I don't know, probably
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Speaker 1: a twelve to fifteen degrees internal temperature. Couple that with
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Speaker 1: the anxiety of being strapped into a car and being
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Speaker 1: abandoned by your parents potentially, and this becomes a nightmare scenario. Well,
6:53
Speaker 1: I hear that, But that's all about the hot car death.
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Speaker 1: My question is if the child died from some other
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Speaker 1: reason and was then put in the car to look
7:03
Speaker 1: like a hot card death, how can we tell that. Well,
7:06
Speaker 1: what we're gonna be looking for if the child was
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Speaker 1: killed elsewhere by some other means. The first thing is
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Speaker 1: going to be postmortem changes. We're gonna be looking at
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Speaker 1: how has the body changed since that point in time
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Speaker 1: of death. And there are a lot of different factors
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Speaker 1: that will look at relative to things like rigor mortis
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Speaker 1: and postworm lividity, and even slow it down, Slow down
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Speaker 1: the train. Don't just throw out rigor mortis and lividity,
7:30
Speaker 1: break it down. Break it down well. The stiffening of
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Speaker 1: the body after death takes place in a very a
7:37
Speaker 1: very regimented manner. And so if the body if if,
7:41
Speaker 1: what they're gonna have to do relative to the information
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Speaker 1: that's coming to the police via the family and per
7:46
Speaker 1: their interviews, They're gonna match up those changes in the
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Speaker 1: body relative to the timeline that the parents are giving them.
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Speaker 1: And this this is where people generally screw up when
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Speaker 1: they're trying to conceal a death. They don't lies that.
8:00
Speaker 1: We will read into what we're seeing at the scene
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Speaker 1: and try to marry that up with what they're saying
8:05
Speaker 1: and see if it makes sense. That is the degree
8:07
Speaker 1: that the body is stiffened lybra mortist, how has the
8:10
Speaker 1: blood settled in the body if the child is in
8:12
Speaker 1: a seated position, they find the child okay right here,
8:15
Speaker 1: let me talk to you about that, because ingra mortists
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Speaker 1: can mimic it can rigor mortists can look the same
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Speaker 1: whether the child died right there or the child died
8:24
Speaker 1: in the house, depending on the position of the child
8:27
Speaker 1: at the time of death. But what you just said,
8:30
Speaker 1: the pulling of the blood. Child died sitting right there
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Speaker 1: in a car seat, you'll find the baby's blood pulled
8:41
Speaker 1: in the rear end, the legs, the toes, the feet.
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Speaker 1: The body sinks like if you're lying flat, the body
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Speaker 1: sinks to your back, your buttocks, the back of your legs.
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Speaker 1: It sinks down with gravity. That's what he's talking about.
8:55
Speaker 1: What else can we tell if the child died anywhere else? Well,
8:59
Speaker 1: if the child anywhere else, I think probably the most
9:02
Speaker 1: obvious thing, Nancy, are going to be the signs that
9:04
Speaker 1: we're gonna be looking for relative to trauma. Okay, uh.
9:07
Speaker 1: That is if this was, say, for instance, some kind
9:10
Speaker 1: of airway block, it's like a suffocation or a mechanical
9:13
Speaker 1: asphyxiation where the literature was used, We're gonna look for
9:17
Speaker 1: signs in the eyes, like what about ever child was
9:19
Speaker 1: suffocated with a pillow and then set out in the
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Speaker 1: car with that. Well, one of the things that we'll
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Speaker 1: look for is when when people are suffocated, many times
9:30
Speaker 1: that means that the mouth and the nose will be
9:33
Speaker 1: depressed a tremendous amount of way will be placed. There's
9:36
Speaker 1: a little attachment in our mouth that a lot of
9:37
Speaker 1: people don't know about, called a frenulum. It's at the
9:39
Speaker 1: bottom and the top, and and it kind of connects
9:42
Speaker 1: our upper lip and our lower lip to our gum line.
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Speaker 1: And what happens many times is that area gets a
9:46
Speaker 1: tiny little laceration in it, and it is easy to spot.
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Speaker 1: Also in certain cases of suffocation, we can still pick
9:54
Speaker 1: up on Patikia and Nancy. As you well know, patiki
9:57
Speaker 1: I just doesn't miraculously appear. There has to be some
10:00
Speaker 1: type of pressure applied. What that means is the tiny,
10:04
Speaker 1: tiny little veins in your eyes. Have you ever woken
10:08
Speaker 1: up one morning and you've got a big red thing
10:12
Speaker 1: in your eye? Something like that, except sometimes it's some
10:15
Speaker 1: microscopic They have to see it under a microscope during autopsy.
10:19
Speaker 1: When you're strangled or asphyxiated, those blood vessels explode in
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Speaker 1: your eye and they're so tiny um they're not always
10:28
Speaker 1: visible to the naked eye, but medical examiner can't see it.
10:32
Speaker 1: So with that in mind, would see those kind of
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Speaker 1: particularly explosions in the I n as. Joe Scott Morgan
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Speaker 1: was describing other edition of another type of death, be
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Speaker 1: it innocent or nefarious, And we don't know. We don't
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Speaker 1: know if it was heat stroke, which it seems that's
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Speaker 1: what everyone's thinking, or that's suggested because the child's in
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Speaker 1: the car. Okay, we don't know what happened one way
11:00
Speaker 1: or the other. Back to Robin Willinski. Now the neighbors
11:04
Speaker 1: are saying the mayor of Westmoreland was not living in
11:08
Speaker 1: that home. Who if anyone Robin was living there at
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Speaker 1: the time the baby was found dead. Well, well, here's
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Speaker 1: what we think. The parents the names are Anthony and
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Speaker 1: Jade Phillips. The woman, Jade is the daughter of the mayors,
11:23
Speaker 1: and she is a working person. She was apparently at work,
11:27
Speaker 1: and the dad is a stay at home dad. And
11:30
Speaker 1: we are we know from the police situation that one
11:33
Speaker 1: of the parents actually called police, but they're not saying
11:36
Speaker 1: if it was mommy or daddy. So the mom was
11:38
Speaker 1: out to work. Let's let me just think this thing through.
11:42
Speaker 1: The mom was out to work. Does she work regular hours,
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Speaker 1: like you know, eight to five, eight to six, nine
11:48
Speaker 1: to five, something like that, or does she work at night?
11:51
Speaker 1: That that's part of it is unclear. But the baby
11:53
Speaker 1: was found at two o'clock in the afternoon, So if
11:55
Speaker 1: she worked at regular day job nine to five, she
11:59
Speaker 1: was not home. But we don't know. That's for a fact.
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Speaker 1: The Gatlinburg Police Department and the tb I Tennessee Bureau
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Speaker 1: of Investigation both are declining requests to release the incident report,
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Speaker 1: citing it being an ongoing investigation. We don't know right
12:18
Speaker 1: now where the investigation stands, but we know that neighbors
12:22
Speaker 1: are telling us that the mayor did not live there. However,
12:26
Speaker 1: by all accounts, this is the mayor's grandson. Would that
12:30
Speaker 1: be correct, Robin Willinsky, Yeah, he is the grandson. But
12:33
Speaker 1: there's a couple of children's type toys that were out
12:37
Speaker 1: on the lawn. So perhaps and again you know, this
12:39
Speaker 1: is an assumption, perhaps the daughter and his son in
12:42
Speaker 1: law we're living there with the baby. Maybe they were
12:44
Speaker 1: just there for a couple of days. Um, it's very unclear,
12:48
Speaker 1: but we know for sure that the Jerry Kirklin was
12:50
Speaker 1: not actually in the home that he owns at the
12:53
Speaker 1: time when the baby was in the car found in
12:55
Speaker 1: the driveways. There was plenty of evidence of child lived there.
12:58
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't get up in even the morning
13:01
Speaker 1: without seeing the babies, things all over the yard. And
13:04
Speaker 1: I get that the mom was working and the dad
13:07
Speaker 1: was a stay at home dad, But how do you
13:10
Speaker 1: come home at night after work, and I'm assuming this
13:12
Speaker 1: is working the right hour, the normal hours, how do
13:15
Speaker 1: you come home at night and not notice your baby
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Speaker 1: is not there? I mean, when did the baby get
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Speaker 1: in the car? And how do you go all day
13:25
Speaker 1: and all night and nobody notices the baby is not there?
13:31
Speaker 1: How does that happen? Joe Scott, what do we know?
13:33
Speaker 1: I don't know. Scratching my head over this as well,
13:37
Speaker 1: how do you go for twenty period dancy and not
13:41
Speaker 1: having awareness that this child who you are responsible for
13:44
Speaker 1: taking care of is is not within Well, I'm not
13:47
Speaker 1: gonna stay within arms reach my children. It was the case,
13:51
Speaker 1: particularly at this age they were. But I don't understand
13:54
Speaker 1: how you can go missing a child when you have
13:57
Speaker 1: these two that are supposed to be responsible for the
13:59
Speaker 1: child and that period of time, that period of time,
14:01
Speaker 1: if in fact that child was trapped in that car,
14:04
Speaker 1: it's sufficient amount of time for that child to have succumbed.
14:09
Speaker 1: Potentially in this environment, people think that if we're just
14:12
Speaker 1: talking about a heat related death, we're thinking you know, Well,
14:14
Speaker 1: it's in the smoky mountains. It's nice and cool and all.
14:17
Speaker 1: That's that's ridiculous. Uh. These cars heat up tremendously. And
14:21
Speaker 1: here's another thing you've mentioned, this idea of maybe the
14:25
Speaker 1: child was placed there after another event. People panic sometimes
14:29
Speaker 1: they do, and they place the child in the in
14:31
Speaker 1: the car. But what else could be involved here? Well,
14:33
Speaker 1: let's think about you know, because I have to, I
14:35
Speaker 1: have to. I have to reach out and try to
14:37
Speaker 1: understand this as a parent. Are these people impaired some way?
14:41
Speaker 1: Are they? Are they, you know, impaired some way that
14:44
Speaker 1: would diminish their capacity to be able to go out
14:46
Speaker 1: and take care of their child and track the child
14:49
Speaker 1: down and say, gee, where's our child? Um, right now,
14:53
Speaker 1: I think there's they're far more questions than there are answers,
14:57
Speaker 1: you know. Uh. A neighbor who owns the near by
15:00
Speaker 1: Laurel Springs Lodge Bed and Breakfast says that he walked
15:05
Speaker 1: up to Laurel Avenue after he heard police and fire
15:08
Speaker 1: trucks go by, and he says he saw the first
15:12
Speaker 1: responders at the door of the house and then heard
15:14
Speaker 1: somebody shrieking, either from pain or misery. Screaming out of pain. Um.
15:23
Speaker 1: We also learned, as Robin Willinsky just said, people didn't
15:27
Speaker 1: know exactly he was living there because it's made up
15:30
Speaker 1: the neighborhoods, made up so much of rentals, so many
15:34
Speaker 1: people come and go, so they didn't really know who
15:37
Speaker 1: was there. But now we know it's the mayor's daughter
15:39
Speaker 1: Jade and husband Anthony. The mom works during the day.
15:43
Speaker 1: But still that doesn't explain to me, Robin, how she
15:46
Speaker 1: didn't notice at night the baby wasn't there. Yeah, you
15:50
Speaker 1: know again, was somebody drinking with somebody on drugs? Is
15:54
Speaker 1: this also I'm sort of a cover up? You know?
15:56
Speaker 1: People scream? Was it a fake scream? Did someone oh
16:00
Speaker 1: my gosh, you know, my my, my baby has been killed?
16:03
Speaker 1: And Nybie, they already knew that the baby was dead.
16:05
Speaker 1: I mean, who knows. It's It's very odd to me.
16:09
Speaker 1: Was the scream even faked or was it really someone
16:12
Speaker 1: screaming in a panic that their child was dead. I
16:15
Speaker 1: think the circumstances it just does not add up. It's
16:18
Speaker 1: too much time that this child is gone. This this
16:21
Speaker 1: little boy was only two years old. You need to
16:24
Speaker 1: tell me you lost track of them for twelve hours
16:26
Speaker 1: in a car. It makes no sense to now you're
16:29
Speaker 1: saying twelve, you're saying twelve, we're saying twenty four. Where
16:32
Speaker 1: are you getting the twelve? There were reports that he
16:34
Speaker 1: was in the car for in the car at least
16:37
Speaker 1: twelve hours. There are reports out in the media that
16:40
Speaker 1: he was in the car for at least twelve hours,
16:42
Speaker 1: is what they're saying. M hm. So if the baby's
16:47
Speaker 1: in the car twelve hours, that means overnight. But why
16:50
Speaker 1: would you put the baby in the car at night
16:52
Speaker 1: and then leave it? It makes to me it has
16:55
Speaker 1: to be from the end of the work day at
16:57
Speaker 1: least the day before, and the baby's found at two pm. Well,
17:00
Speaker 1: that's the thing. If you do the math, let's say
17:03
Speaker 1: at least twelve hours, Nancy, you're talking about someone putting
17:05
Speaker 1: the baby in the car. Let's say at two am
17:07
Speaker 1: and the wee hours when it's dark, and then the
17:09
Speaker 1: baby is found at two pm. What happened, And that's
17:13
Speaker 1: at least twelve hour at least twelve hour time frame.
17:16
Speaker 1: It's very concious to me. Why are you putting a
17:18
Speaker 1: child in the car at that at that time of night.
17:21
Speaker 1: That makes absolutely no sense. At this point in time
17:25
Speaker 1: the child's founded too, You're you're actually heading into the
17:29
Speaker 1: hottest part of the day by that By that period
17:32
Speaker 1: of time, if we backed that time up till the
17:34
Speaker 1: late afternoon or early evening the day before, you're still
17:38
Speaker 1: looking at a child being without a parent, being strapped
17:41
Speaker 1: in a car for that period of time, rebreathing their
17:44
Speaker 1: on air in this environment. They don't have access to water,
17:46
Speaker 1: they don't have access to food. Yeah, so this is
17:49
Speaker 1: very troubling, Nancy, very troubling. Well, this is what we
17:53
Speaker 1: know at this hour. We have confirmed that Anthony and
17:56
Speaker 1: Jade Phillips have been indicted by a grand jury on
17:59
Speaker 1: charges of degree murder, aggravated child abuse, aggravated child neglect.
18:06
Speaker 1: Now what does that mean about the cause of death?
18:09
Speaker 1: The case remains open. And now on crime stories, Michael
18:13
Speaker 1: Jarvis went to the St. Joseph Medical Center with the
18:16
Speaker 1: intention of killing doctor Todd Graham. Graham was orthopedic. Doctor
18:20
Speaker 1: Jarvis made that choice to take his life. Jarvis confronted
18:24
Speaker 1: Dr Graham in the parking lot when he would not
18:26
Speaker 1: prescribe opioids for his wife's chronic pain. He did what
18:30
Speaker 1: we ask our doctors to do. Don't over prescribe opioids.
18:34
Speaker 1: Now we head to Indiana where a will respected and
18:38
Speaker 1: much beloved doctor is shot dead. Shot dead. Why? As
18:46
Speaker 1: the evidence is being uncovered and the investigation goes on,
18:50
Speaker 1: it seems that the murderer may have been committed by
18:55
Speaker 1: a man angry. This doctor wouldn't not prescribe opioids, opioids, painkillers,
19:05
Speaker 1: dope like um, OxyContin, oxycode. Don't I think fentnyl all
19:12
Speaker 1: sorts of drugs equals opioids. Remember a Wizard of Oz
19:18
Speaker 1: where Dorothy tries to cross the big field of poppies.
19:21
Speaker 1: She got sleepy because they're poppies. Poppies make opium, opium,
19:26
Speaker 1: it's the natural derivative of opioid, that's where it comes from.
19:32
Speaker 1: Then they're synthetic opioids as well. But to shoot a
19:36
Speaker 1: doctor dead because he won't write a prescription? Okay? Robin
19:40
Speaker 1: will Lynskey joining me along with Joseph Scott Morgan, Robin
19:44
Speaker 1: senior news anchor Blaze Radio Network. Robin, it's hard for
19:48
Speaker 1: me to take in. First of all, I've never asked
19:50
Speaker 1: for opioids. But second, if a doctor, I remember when
19:54
Speaker 1: a doctor wouldn't give me what I wanted for John
19:56
Speaker 1: David's skin issue. Uh, it was like a death dating
20:02
Speaker 1: virus was eating his foot, okay, and I did not
20:05
Speaker 1: like it one bit. I didn't shoot her in the head,
20:08
Speaker 1: all right. In a couple of weeks. In a couple
20:10
Speaker 1: of weeks it went away, no thanks to her. But
20:13
Speaker 1: it kind of got well on its own. But what
20:17
Speaker 1: happened this is unbelievable in that this the shooter. Either
20:25
Speaker 1: his wife was in so much pain he was off
20:28
Speaker 1: the deep end and really wanted the pills for his wife,
20:32
Speaker 1: or he was on the brink because he was the
20:34
Speaker 1: addict and he was taking the pills. That's what I
20:37
Speaker 1: believe is what is in play here, that maybe he
20:40
Speaker 1: was dipping into his wife's little pill box and he
20:43
Speaker 1: went off the deep end wanting the medication. Uh. He
20:47
Speaker 1: tracks down this doctor Nancy uh Todd Graham fifty six
20:51
Speaker 1: years old. He's a married man with three kids, and
20:54
Speaker 1: he goes to this appointment and the doctor's like, Nope,
20:57
Speaker 1: no more medicine for you. And he was are upset.
21:00
Speaker 1: And apparently this Michael Jarvis character is lurking in the
21:05
Speaker 1: parking lot. You know how there's these medical office buildings
21:08
Speaker 1: and the next door is the rehab center, and it's
21:10
Speaker 1: all kind of like an office complex. He apparently is
21:13
Speaker 1: lurking and waiting in the parking lot, and when the
21:17
Speaker 1: doctor goes from one office building to the other, they
21:20
Speaker 1: have this big confrontation and argument in the parking lot,
21:23
Speaker 1: and there are other people around, and the guy actually
21:26
Speaker 1: says to the witches, ses, oh, you better get out
21:28
Speaker 1: of here, and then he goes and he shoots the doctor,
21:31
Speaker 1: whoa Dr Todd Graham, fifty six year old, very beloved
21:36
Speaker 1: doctor was shot dead by Michael Jarvis of Mishawaka. St.
21:43
Speaker 1: Joseph County. Authorities say, and the shooting took places Robin
21:47
Speaker 1: Willinsky is telling us in the parking lot it's St.
21:50
Speaker 1: Joseph Rehab Institute and that is where near where Dr
21:54
Speaker 1: Todd Graham worked at South Bend Orthopedics. Now that's giving
21:58
Speaker 1: me a clue right there that he's an orthopedic surgeon
22:02
Speaker 1: or an orthopedic doctor. Where you go from back pain
22:06
Speaker 1: or knee pain. Um Jervis's wife had had a ten
22:11
Speaker 1: forty five am appointment that morning with the doctor. Graham
22:16
Speaker 1: told the couple that he would not prescribe any opioid
22:21
Speaker 1: drugs and Jarvis got crazy and they had an argument
22:25
Speaker 1: right then and there in the office. Jarvis came back
22:32
Speaker 1: while the doctor was going from the orthopedic building to
22:35
Speaker 1: the rehab right there, as Robin Wilinsky's telling you, they
22:39
Speaker 1: started an argument again, Well they didn't. I guarantee you
22:42
Speaker 1: it was the husband that started the argument. Then Jarvis
22:46
Speaker 1: follows Dr Graham as he went into the other building.
22:48
Speaker 1: That must have been a horrible feeling, you know, Joseph S.
22:52
Speaker 1: Gott Morgan Death Investigator, when you know the person is
22:57
Speaker 1: following you, when you know they won't quit arguing. But
23:02
Speaker 1: how could the doctor have known this guy was going
23:04
Speaker 1: to erupt into gunfire? He has he has no no
23:08
Speaker 1: idea that this is coming, I would imagine, Nancy. However,
23:11
Speaker 1: doctors in this environment deal with agitated families and UH
23:15
Speaker 1: and certainly patients on a regular basis, and many times
23:18
Speaker 1: they'll they'll remove themselves from circumstances to try to defuse
23:22
Speaker 1: the situation. Unfortunately, in this particular instance, that didn't happen.
23:25
Speaker 1: This guy actually tracked him down. And going back to
23:27
Speaker 1: what Robin said, I found it very interesting that prior
23:31
Speaker 1: to shooting and killing this man, the shooter actually stated,
23:37
Speaker 1: you guys better get out of here. So you know
23:40
Speaker 1: that that tells me. You know that he knows that
23:42
Speaker 1: trouble's coming, at least the shooter does. Now whether or
23:44
Speaker 1: not the doctor was aware of that, you know what
23:46
Speaker 1: that means. That means there goes any suggestion that this
23:50
Speaker 1: was just an angry argument. He pulls a gun that
23:52
Speaker 1: he happens to have stuck down his pants, but to
23:55
Speaker 1: tell people standing around, hey, you better leave right now.
23:59
Speaker 1: He knew he played in for this to happen. Now
24:01
Speaker 1: we look to the online obituary for Graham and it
24:05
Speaker 1: says that he is survived by a wife and three children.
24:10
Speaker 1: The doctor has a wife and three children. I mean,
24:14
Speaker 1: you go to work one day, Robin Wilinsky, and you
24:18
Speaker 1: come home your children or without their father. You're a
24:22
Speaker 1: widow or you're a widow bam because your husband wouldn't
24:26
Speaker 1: prescribe opioids. And that's how it happens, Robin. I mean,
24:29
Speaker 1: I remember I waved goodbye to Keith. He held his
24:33
Speaker 1: arm out in the window and drove away. I never
24:36
Speaker 1: saw him again. That that was it, And the shock
24:41
Speaker 1: this family must be going through. Robin, Yeah, you know,
24:44
Speaker 1: I get the chills when you when you talk about
24:46
Speaker 1: your personal experience, it's really chilling. You know. It reminds
24:50
Speaker 1: me of the people on the morning of nine eleven
24:52
Speaker 1: that never kissed their loved one goodbye as well. It's
24:55
Speaker 1: just a terrible feeling. Keep in mind, being an orthopedic
24:59
Speaker 1: surgeon or a dog as a pretty low risk profession.
25:02
Speaker 1: I mean, you think of professions that are high risk, Nancy,
25:05
Speaker 1: that being an orthopedic doctor is not on the list. Well,
25:08
Speaker 1: guess what I found out. Robin, a Notre Dame University spokesperson,
25:12
Speaker 1: said that Jarvis the shooter was an quote on call,
25:18
Speaker 1: part time parking attendant and groundskeeper and Notre Dame University,
25:23
Speaker 1: and that Dr Graham was a consulting physician at the school.
25:29
Speaker 1: So I wonder if somehow he as the grounds person.
25:34
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just thinking about at our school or
25:36
Speaker 1: my church, or I remember it um at hl N,
25:40
Speaker 1: CNN or and at the d a's office. I was
25:43
Speaker 1: friends with everybody that was in quote operations. They would
25:47
Speaker 1: fix you know, the cameras are in the d a's office.
25:51
Speaker 1: They would fix every all the machinery that we use,
25:55
Speaker 1: the copy machines, the everything, uh things you used at
25:58
Speaker 1: grand jury to present cass You get to know these
26:03
Speaker 1: people that you work with, their your colleagues. I wonder
26:06
Speaker 1: if that's how they met, and I mean they had
26:08
Speaker 1: to be. They both worked there and Notre Damon two
26:11
Speaker 1: very different capacities, and it's very it's very possible that
26:14
Speaker 1: he was stalking him, knew his schedule, knew that he
26:17
Speaker 1: went from one building to the next building, knew all
26:19
Speaker 1: the different places where he was a consultant and had
26:22
Speaker 1: his schedule, and you know, typical stalker behavior. And then
26:26
Speaker 1: think about this, he was probably really kicked off this
26:29
Speaker 1: guy if he's the drug addict and not the wife.
26:31
Speaker 1: If he's the one who's addicted, he's probably really desperate
26:34
Speaker 1: for his drugs and then takes the gun with him.
26:37
Speaker 1: To me, it sounds like premeditation. You know, he's actually
26:39
Speaker 1: saw the wife that morning. Doctor Ta Graham saw Jarvis's
26:43
Speaker 1: wife there at South Bend Orthopedics that morning, but by
26:48
Speaker 1: all accounts, the wife had no idea what her husband
26:51
Speaker 1: was about to do. I mean, we can speculate, but
26:54
Speaker 1: I find it really hard to believe he did this
26:56
Speaker 1: because his wife was in so much pain. I mean,
26:59
Speaker 1: I would have just go onto a different doctor. You know,
27:02
Speaker 1: I'm not one for doctor shopping. If one doctor won't help,
27:06
Speaker 1: you're I mean, I'm constantly telling my mom. Both of
27:09
Speaker 1: you have met my mom, let's go to a different
27:12
Speaker 1: doctor because she's always in so much pain with her
27:14
Speaker 1: legs and back. Let's just try something else. Let's do
27:17
Speaker 1: something else. I would never dream of hunting down the
27:20
Speaker 1: one doctor in the parking lot and shoot him in
27:22
Speaker 1: the head for Pete's sake. So at this point we're
27:26
Speaker 1: trying to figure out was Jarvis a drug fiend, had
27:32
Speaker 1: he been getting illegal opioids? Was his wife involved in
27:36
Speaker 1: any way? As this mom prepares for life without her
27:40
Speaker 1: husband and the children face the rest of their lives
27:44
Speaker 1: without their father, what does what do we mean by opioid?
27:49
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Well, opioid. As you mentioned earlier, Nancy,
27:56
Speaker 1: most opioids are creating a lab. Now there their synthetic
28:01
Speaker 1: versions of the original opioids that you get from the
28:04
Speaker 1: poppy plant. This highly, highly addictive medication that's meant to
28:09
Speaker 1: knock down pain. When I say highly addictive, it is
28:13
Speaker 1: as addictive as many drugs that we see on the streets,
28:16
Speaker 1: particularly like heroin. People go on and on about the
28:19
Speaker 1: heroin problem in the country. Opioids, relative to prescription medications
28:24
Speaker 1: are just as dangerous. And this is the problem when
28:27
Speaker 1: people are denied these drugs. When you're telling someone that's
28:31
Speaker 1: dependent upon them no, this will cause them to take
28:35
Speaker 1: desperate measures many times. And so many people are on
28:39
Speaker 1: these meds. Now. Uh, it sounds like this Dr Jarvis
28:43
Speaker 1: uh took a step uh to say no to somebody
28:47
Speaker 1: that he dare tell this guy no. I'm with Robin
28:50
Speaker 1: on this. I think that uh, you know, thinking about
28:53
Speaker 1: this he you're trying to tell me that he stepped
28:55
Speaker 1: into the reach on behalf of his wife. It sounds
28:58
Speaker 1: like somebody was very, very desperate for drug and this
29:01
Speaker 1: absence of drugs can drive them to insanity many times
29:04
Speaker 1: and do things that they wouldn't normally do. But this
29:07
Speaker 1: guy had a weapon with him always. What are we
29:10
Speaker 1: talking about? Well, I think probably uh one of the
29:13
Speaker 1: things that comes to mind most frequently. People think about
29:16
Speaker 1: things like OxyContin, which is prescribed for instance, Uh in
29:22
Speaker 1: his case, this doctor's case, he would give this traditionally
29:25
Speaker 1: to patients that had undergone some type of orthopedic surgeries.
29:29
Speaker 1: Keep in mind, this guy works on knees and shoulders
29:31
Speaker 1: and backs and necks and all these sorts of things.
29:34
Speaker 1: He would give them these medications like oxyconton to knock
29:38
Speaker 1: the pain down, just so that the person can get
29:41
Speaker 1: into rehab and begin to strengthen that muscle and that
29:44
Speaker 1: structure around that bone that has been fixed and the
29:47
Speaker 1: This is intense pain that these people go through. I've
29:50
Speaker 1: had several surgeries on my shoulders and that sort of thing,
29:52
Speaker 1: and the pain is unbearable many times, and sometimes you
29:56
Speaker 1: need something to help. This is what I've learned. Opium
29:59
Speaker 1: is the hardened juice from the unripe seed pods of
30:06
Speaker 1: poppy plants. It's a yellowish brown or brownish black colored substance.
30:11
Speaker 1: It can be solid or sticky. Medical professionals prescribe it
30:15
Speaker 1: for pain killing, and now it's been being used for recreation.
30:21
Speaker 1: It creates a euphoric and calming state. I'm talking about heroin,
30:24
Speaker 1: big o, black stuff, block, gum, hot, dover powder. I mean,
30:29
Speaker 1: there's a million names, dope, smack ahs, train thunder, black tar, China,
30:33
Speaker 1: white horse, junk, and he Freese, brown sugar, Henry horse, skag,
30:36
Speaker 1: hero hell dust. It includes fetinol, which on the street
30:40
Speaker 1: is Apache, China Girl, China, White, Dance, Fever, Friend, Good Fellow, King, Ivory,
30:45
Speaker 1: Murder eight, TN T Tango Cash. I mean it goes
30:49
Speaker 1: on then morphine, which is a painkiller. It's a primary
30:54
Speaker 1: derivative of opien. M Miss Emma, Monkey White Stuff Dreamer.
31:00
Speaker 1: Then you got codeine, hydro, codeon oxy, code own for
31:04
Speaker 1: code own, Schoolboy coughs or T three's which is tailing
31:08
Speaker 1: all plus three with codeine. Then you got hydro codon
31:12
Speaker 1: VIGs vico norco hydro. Then you got oxycodon, ox oxycotton
31:18
Speaker 1: oxy set. I mean, there have you ever heard of
31:22
Speaker 1: any of those? Robin Willinski a few. I've heard of
31:25
Speaker 1: a few of them, and I had some couple of those.
31:28
Speaker 1: Let me tell you something. I had some massive dental
31:30
Speaker 1: work done in the last month, and the doctor one
31:32
Speaker 1: of the medications was one of those on your list,
31:35
Speaker 1: and I didn't even fill it. I was just afraid,
31:37
Speaker 1: you know, after my knee surgery, which you know, you
31:40
Speaker 1: know how that happened, I've have broken one foot trying
31:43
Speaker 1: to spy on the babysitter who was taking care of
31:46
Speaker 1: the twins. Okay, I did not learn my lesson, Okay,
31:50
Speaker 1: then flash forward a couple of years Lucay a soccer practice. Lucy,
31:53
Speaker 1: and I'm convinced someone will try to kidnap her, and
31:57
Speaker 1: um if I leave. But I needed to go John,
32:00
Speaker 1: That's my only chance to jog while she was at
32:02
Speaker 1: soccer practice. So I find a stretch of road where
32:05
Speaker 1: I can jog, and if I go back and forth
32:08
Speaker 1: over and over and over in the same spot, I
32:10
Speaker 1: can keep my eye on her the entire time. Little
32:14
Speaker 1: does she know, I stuck a bow in her head
32:15
Speaker 1: just so I could identify her at a distance. So
32:18
Speaker 1: anyway to get to that stretch of road, I had
32:21
Speaker 1: to jump over a fence. So I climb up the fence.
32:24
Speaker 1: It's about four and a half feet tall, and I
32:26
Speaker 1: don't know what I was thinking and jump down from
32:29
Speaker 1: the top. Okay, goodbye. A c l that was ripped
32:33
Speaker 1: right along with the meniscus, and they offered me a painkiller.
32:38
Speaker 1: My husband went to the you know the doctor, I
32:40
Speaker 1: mean the pharmacy and brought it home. I'm like, ummm,
32:44
Speaker 1: if the twins see that, they'll be dope things by tonight.
32:46
Speaker 1: Just flush it right down the como, don't even put
32:48
Speaker 1: it in a trash. I was so freaked out about
32:52
Speaker 1: an opioid no oxy content, you know, so it gets
32:57
Speaker 1: ahold of you. Perfectly normal, everyday workaday people, parents, white
33:05
Speaker 1: collar executives, you name it, get hooked on this and
33:08
Speaker 1: they managed to function seemingly normally hooked on opi Well,
33:13
Speaker 1: this is what I know. Two families completely destroyed because
33:19
Speaker 1: of drugs and now on crime stories. Cook County Sheriff's
33:24
Speaker 1: officers identified James Byron Hockinson as a victim of notorious
33:28
Speaker 1: serial killer John Wayne Gaycey. With Hawkinson's discovery, there are
33:31
Speaker 1: now six gay Cy victims who still need to be identified.
33:35
Speaker 1: He was killing so many people that he was burying
33:37
Speaker 1: people on top of each other. Jimmy Hockinson was just
33:40
Speaker 1: sixteen when he left Minnesota, arrived in Chicago, and disappeared.
33:45
Speaker 1: John Wayne Gaycey a name that has instilled fear for years.
33:52
Speaker 1: How many little boys did he kill? Did he murder?
33:56
Speaker 1: Often called the clown killer because he would show up
34:01
Speaker 1: at birthday parties and events as a clown and then
34:04
Speaker 1: lure little boys to horrific molestations and death. Murder of
34:10
Speaker 1: little boys. The remains found all in the crawl spaces
34:16
Speaker 1: of his home John Wayne Gacey. Yes, we've heard of him,
34:22
Speaker 1: but now, believe it or not, breaking news connected to
34:27
Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacey. And who better to discuss it, to
34:31
Speaker 1: analyze it, to break it down and put it back
34:34
Speaker 1: together again then death investigator forensic professor at Jacksonville State University,
34:40
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan. You know, I try to put John
34:43
Speaker 1: Wayne Gayze's name out of my mind. Okay, I don't
34:47
Speaker 1: want to buy his art. I don't want anything to
34:49
Speaker 1: do with him. Why is he rearing his ugly head
34:53
Speaker 1: again now, Joe Scott, after all of these years, Nancy,
34:57
Speaker 1: a bright spot. We've got a young a young boy
35:01
Speaker 1: at the time, he was only sixteen, that has been missing,
35:05
Speaker 1: has finally been identified forty years later, been identified, and
35:11
Speaker 1: his family now knows what happened to him and where
35:14
Speaker 1: he wound up. It's very sad, but again it's one
35:18
Speaker 1: of the things that we're about in forensic science, and
35:20
Speaker 1: that is closure, closure, and the fact that this monster
35:25
Speaker 1: got his hands on this poor young man. Hopefully the
35:31
Speaker 1: family will have some peace and rest now after all
35:34
Speaker 1: of this time. John Wayne Gaycey is one of the
35:37
Speaker 1: most prolific serial killers in US history. From nineteen seventy
35:42
Speaker 1: two to nineteen seventy eight, he lured or forced thirty three,
35:48
Speaker 1: repeat thirty three boys that we know of, and let
35:55
Speaker 1: me stress that how many more are there that we
35:57
Speaker 1: don't know about? Lured or forced them? Many of these
36:03
Speaker 1: boys he employed at his so called construction business, lured
36:08
Speaker 1: them to his home in the suburbs outside of Chicago,
36:11
Speaker 1: where he murdered them, sexually assaulting his victims as he
36:15
Speaker 1: tortured them to death, and then buried all but six
36:20
Speaker 1: of them beneath his own home. Neighbors there in Norwood
36:25
Speaker 1: Park Township, Illinois, knew Gaycy for appearances at children's parties
36:29
Speaker 1: where he performed as Pogo the Clown, a character he
36:35
Speaker 1: later painted and sketched many many times behind bars. Now,
36:41
Speaker 1: he was convicted of killing thirty three people. But here's
36:45
Speaker 1: the problem. Identifying the remains of all of his victims
36:50
Speaker 1: has taken decades. Recently, we've been helped with advances in
36:56
Speaker 1: forensic technology and DNA deox ribo to cleric acid. This
37:03
Speaker 1: latest victim, I wish you could see his face. James
37:07
Speaker 1: Byron Hagginson, just had turned sixteen, was murdered by John
37:14
Speaker 1: Wayne Gacy in nineteen seventy six, and as we go
37:19
Speaker 1: to air here on Sirius XM today, his remains have
37:22
Speaker 1: finally been identified. Investigators using DNA evidence to i d
37:28
Speaker 1: one of seven remaining unknown victims victims of John Wayne
37:34
Speaker 1: Gacy serial killer who raped and murdered dozens dozens of boys,
37:42
Speaker 1: labeled the Killer Clown or the Clown Killer. Cook County
37:47
Speaker 1: Sheriff's Department say the newly identified victim, James Byron Hackinson,
37:54
Speaker 1: was killed the summer of nineteen seventies six. Police found
38:00
Speaker 1: the body in twenty six other dead bodies and gay
38:05
Speaker 1: Sy's crawl space of his home in December se All
38:10
Speaker 1: this time, all this time, his parents have wondered where
38:15
Speaker 1: he was. Joe Scott, can you imagine? No, no, I can't.
38:20
Speaker 1: And his his mom is the age of your boy. Yeah,
38:23
Speaker 1: yeah it is. And I it's just absolutely heartbreaking. Uh
38:27
Speaker 1: this this Uh poor kids mom went to her grave
38:31
Speaker 1: I think in two thousand seven or two thousand eight,
38:34
Speaker 1: not knowing whatever happened to her son. But one of
38:38
Speaker 1: the really compelling parts of this is that there was
38:40
Speaker 1: a nephew in this family who had never met this
38:44
Speaker 1: young man. Uh, he wasn't even born yet. And amazingly enough,
38:50
Speaker 1: the young man uh just became fascinated with his case
38:53
Speaker 1: and kept pushing and pushing and pushing the rest of
38:55
Speaker 1: the family to get behind his efforts to get the
38:58
Speaker 1: body note identified in. What happened was they had an
39:02
Speaker 1: unidentified body. As you had mentioned, there were several of them,
39:05
Speaker 1: and because of this kid's mother, who was the sister
39:09
Speaker 1: to the victim and a brother, they got familiar DNA
39:14
Speaker 1: and compared it and that came to the conclusion that
39:16
Speaker 1: there was very strong evidence that the remains of this
39:19
Speaker 1: young man were actually actually their their long lost brother
39:24
Speaker 1: that had passed away at the hands of Gaysy, that
39:27
Speaker 1: was murdered, that was slaughtered and placed underneath this man's
39:31
Speaker 1: house with all of these other victims. It just it
39:35
Speaker 1: just hurts me so much for the mom to have
39:38
Speaker 1: gone her whole life not knowing what happened, just thinking
39:43
Speaker 1: her son must have run away, not having any idea
39:47
Speaker 1: where he was. I mean, it's just heartbreaking, and I
39:53
Speaker 1: wonder Joseph Scott Morgan, you're the perfect person to ask.
39:58
Speaker 1: I know so many bodies were found in the crawl
40:01
Speaker 1: space of his home. What a freaky feeling that must
40:05
Speaker 1: be to come home and know your murder victims are
40:09
Speaker 1: buried in your house. That must have been some sort
40:11
Speaker 1: of a sick thrill that he got from burying in
40:16
Speaker 1: all of them there. It is owned a home, But
40:20
Speaker 1: I can't help but believe Joseph Scott that there are
40:23
Speaker 1: other bodies in other places that are right now still
40:27
Speaker 1: not credited to him. Oh yeah, I would imagine, Nancy,
40:31
Speaker 1: that there are uh that you know that this person
40:35
Speaker 1: Gacy hesitated calling a man, would go and treat other
40:40
Speaker 1: human beings like pieces of garbage and discard them, uh
40:44
Speaker 1: and throw them away beneath his house and no telling
40:46
Speaker 1: how many are out just out there that no one
40:48
Speaker 1: will ever know about. He took that to his grave
40:51
Speaker 1: when he, you know, received the death penalty and finally
40:55
Speaker 1: was lethally injected. Um. Curious about this. He took all
41:00
Speaker 1: of these bodies and this is not a big house
41:03
Speaker 1: that we're talking about, Nancy. This is kind of a
41:05
Speaker 1: ranch style home. It doesn't obviously have a basement. We're
41:08
Speaker 1: talking about across space. He would have to enter in
41:11
Speaker 1: through a small hatch in the floor and dragged these
41:14
Speaker 1: bodies beneath the house. And after a period of time
41:17
Speaker 1: he had so many bodies then beneath his house, he
41:20
Speaker 1: had to begin stacking the bodies on top of one another.
41:24
Speaker 1: And interestingly enough, before this young man's body was identified,
41:27
Speaker 1: there was another body that was identified there was not
41:30
Speaker 1: too far away, uh from from this young man's body,
41:34
Speaker 1: and that that body was identified in two thousand eleven,
41:37
Speaker 1: and again these numbers began to be whittled down. They
41:41
Speaker 1: the police do not believe that all of his victims
41:43
Speaker 1: were beneath the four boards of that house. They still
41:45
Speaker 1: think that probably three or four are still out there,
41:47
Speaker 1: but they credit them too Gaycy. The problem with this
41:52
Speaker 1: is as the bodies begin to decompose, it's kind of
41:56
Speaker 1: like a layer cake, if you will, and if it collapses,
41:59
Speaker 1: it collapses in note itself. And this is a huge
42:01
Speaker 1: problem for investigators because it becomes what we referred to
42:04
Speaker 1: as stratified, and you get what's referred to as well
42:08
Speaker 1: as co mingling of remains, that is, when the skeleton
42:12
Speaker 1: becomes disarticulated. It begins, just by the nature of things,
42:15
Speaker 1: to mix and mingle with other skeletons, and it makes
42:19
Speaker 1: it a real nightmare for these investigators. Think back to
42:22
Speaker 1: when this happened DNA was not even on the horizon.
42:26
Speaker 1: It didn't come into even enter into our lexicon really
42:29
Speaker 1: as far as a crime solving tool until like eighty
42:32
Speaker 1: five when Sir Alec Jeffers over in England used it
42:36
Speaker 1: to solve solve a case of a double homicide ray
42:40
Speaker 1: homicide over there. And it's only been until recently that
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Speaker 1: we've been able to use this new science. I think
42:45
Speaker 1: it gives us a lot of hope moving forward that
42:47
Speaker 1: we can bring closure. Well what about this. There are
42:50
Speaker 1: still six unidentified victims killed by John Wayne Gacy, and
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Speaker 1: of course he's never given it up. Who you know,
42:59
Speaker 1: who the victims were, how he met them, how he
43:02
Speaker 1: kidnapped them or tortured them or lured them. Nothing. And
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Speaker 1: those are six bodies that we know of. I still
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Speaker 1: think that somewhere he's got another cash of bodies somewhere
43:15
Speaker 1: and then, for whatever reason, started hiding them in his home.
43:19
Speaker 1: I guarantee you that there are bodies somewhere else, but
43:23
Speaker 1: no one knows where or when a body is found.
43:26
Speaker 1: It's just like, oh we found this, by nobody connects
43:29
Speaker 1: it back to John Wayne Gacy. You know what I wonder,
43:33
Speaker 1: I don't think it's better that way, But I wonder
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Speaker 1: if it's better that way because the parents don't have
43:38
Speaker 1: to then think about what their child endured before his death.
43:43
Speaker 1: I mean, I still have cases that I investigated or
43:47
Speaker 1: prosecuted and or prosecuted or covered that's still to this
43:52
Speaker 1: day get me so upset. Like Shasta and Dylan Grony,
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Speaker 1: I will never ever get over what happened in that
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Speaker 1: case and many many, many other ones, what the little
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Speaker 1: victims endured. But for today, for today, we have the
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Speaker 1: resolution on one more case. Robin Lewinsky, Joseph Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: thank you, Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off, goodbye friend