Latest / New Thinking for a New World / Unboxing the Music Business

Transcript

Unboxing the Music Business · New Thinking for a New World

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to New Thinking for a New World, A Tilburg Foundation podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I am Alan Stoga your host.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Each week i bring you conversations with people who think differently about the great issues that are shaping our world Geopolitics Disruptive Tech Mass Migration The Changing Climate Culture Wars.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: All of it is grist for our mill!
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: and that you join the conversation at tellbergfoundation.org.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: And now for today's episode of New Thinking For A New World.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: On this episode of New Thinking for a New World, I want to discuss both those aspects of her life as a wildly talented musician and has someone who definitely is thinking differently about the business of music.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Let me start though by congratulating Yixin on her recently awarded Doctorate Of Music from Yale.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Congratulations!
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: And welcome to the podcast.
• 1:23
  Speaker 0: Thank you so much Alan
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Yujin, I've listened to some of your music and we plan to play some for our listeners during this podcast.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: So let's start with the music side of your life.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: you trained in South Korea Australia Germany and United States And you perform both Western classical repertoire and contemporary interdisciplinary work.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: When you compose or perform do you feel those different cultural traditions pulling in different directions?
• 1:58
  Speaker 0: Yes, absolutely.
• 2:00
  Speaker 0: So when I'm playing the traditional Western classical music The system is already built.
• 2:08
  Speaker 0: We are part of this.
• 2:09
  Speaker 0: big can and audiences are organized by big institutions.
• 2:14
  Speaker 0: we're a part of that.
• 2:15
  Speaker 0: so i don't really have to build something new.
• 2:18
  Speaker 0: I just need you be selected?
• 2:21
  Speaker 0: I had to blend in with ready-built systems Whereas when I'm creating something new, I have to create an avenue for my music to be heard.
• 2:33
  Speaker 0: Basically i have to be my own entrepreneur... ...I have to become a marketer and producer.
• 2:41
  Speaker 0: but the exciting thing about creating my own new music is that from the creation can imagine how it could be consumed by the audience.
• 2:55
  Speaker 0: I can, from start do something differently and creatively which i love.
• 3:02
  Speaker 0: about
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Which do you enjoy more?
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Your classical work or your new creative work?
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: And Do they interact with each other?
• 3:12
  Speaker 0: Oh They absolutely interact With Each Other.
• 3:15
  Speaker 0: So I do Enjoy being part of both worlds.
• 3:19
  Speaker 0: so we Western classical music, there is a built library of all these masterpieces I can learn from and i can hone my skill as a musician.
• 3:30
  Speaker 0: because classical music... There's always a way to perfection.
• 3:35
  Speaker 0: You know you're always striving for perfection when you are being a classical musician whereas in contemporary music scene ...you don't have to be perfect or every mistake becomes part of the creation because it has never been done, you know?
• 3:56
  Speaker 0: And yeah.
• 3:57
  Speaker 0: I love creating new experiences to the audience and bringing some of those technical masteries off Western classical training to The New Music
• 4:09
  Speaker 0: Scene.".
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: There are different norms in those two worlds, I would assume.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: when you're in a classical world people remember that great performance of X, or the time that they Boston Symphony did this.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Or the Melbourne Symphony did that and you're always compared.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: I would assume somehow in that way In creative space The norms are different almost by definition.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Is that confusing at all?
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: And in terms view as a performer
• 4:46
  Speaker 0: Really?
• 4:47
  Speaker 0: So when people are going to classical music concerts, they already know the music.
• 4:59
  Speaker 0: They're expecting great performance from the orchestra of certain repertoire and that is a very valuable experience for the audience whereas new musicians show up without knowing what is going to happen, and I think there's an aspect of fun on that as well.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: I want to come back with the thought in just a second because it was where i was going next.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: but something you said...
• 5:30
  Speaker 0: You
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: perform both In The East And In The West.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: Are audiences different?
• 5:36
  Speaker 0: Yes so audiences surprisingly are not that different.
• 5:42
  Speaker 0: Of course, there are extremes like music enthusiasts and classical music enthusiasts who are more nerds.
• 5:51
  Speaker 0: But people in the middle of demographic is surprisingly wide.
• 5:56
  Speaker 0: they're just therefore good time.
• 5:59
  Speaker 0: basically whether that's listening to Boston Symphony playing Beethoven V or walking into a new space not knowing what the experience, but walking out with wow that was new and fun.
• 6:17
  Speaker 0: You know we had a good time!
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about that aspect of your work.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: I've watched some of you recordings on YouTube...of your experimental recordings And you are clearly trying to expand the concert experience into something That is more immersive or interdisciplinary More socially connected Probably more fun, in the sense that fun.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: That's integral to what you're trying to do.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: it appears
• 6:46
  Speaker 0: Yes absolutely.
• 6:49
  Speaker 0: So there is one thing I noticed Like two hundred years ago when subscription concert was actually first created or sort of like consolidated by Mendocen.
• 7:04
  Speaker 0: It wasn't new thing You know.
• 7:05
  Speaker 0: before then The programs were everywhere.
• 7:09
  Speaker 0: There was like a movement of Sonata here, and then there was like the lousy symphony orchestra trying to reach through Beethoven in second rehearsal... And then Mendelssohn created that subscription model!
• 7:24
  Speaker 0: That became a norm.
• 7:26
  Speaker 0: but it was repeated over-and-over again and some people replicated that.
• 7:31
  Speaker 0: now do it sort of habitually.
• 7:35
  Speaker 0: So first of all, I wanted to create a program where there is an narrative rather than just putting a sonata and symphony there.
• 7:45
  Speaker 0: You know chamber music because you have the feel those sixty to seventy five minutes.
• 7:51
  Speaker 0: And it was actually at The New York Symphony Where i Was A Fellow That I got To Do My First Immersive Concert Which Is Like A Pilot Concert For Unboxed Musicians.
• 8:03
  Speaker 0: I wanted to create a program where audiences are, you know part of the program.
• 8:11
  Speaker 0: they're just experiencing this huge flow of narrative and music.
• 8:18
  Speaker 0: So that's why i came up with some themes related to nature.
• 8:25
  Speaker 0: between pieces there was a soundscape so clap break and then people are coughing, there's awkward silences but it's flowing as a whole.
• 8:40
  Speaker 0: And I was really lucky to be able to have access to your symphony hall because they had all these technical resources like immersive projection um and surround speakers where we played the soundscapes from And I composed one of my first public pieces then because we wanted the audience to be part of these musical experiences.
• 9:08
  Speaker 0: So, I composed a piece where audiences were humming along the drone as they were playing.
• 9:16
  Speaker 0: and last piece I played Terry Riley in C which is like minimalistic work.
• 9:24
  Speaker 0: All the performers are playing these little cells at different times, so it is improbable music which means you cannot recreate that experience.
• 9:35
  Speaker 0: It's only happening once if not through recording.
• 9:40
  Speaker 0: So I had all of the performers play among the audience, so everyone have different experience depending on where they're sitting and there's this whole soundscape going on.
• 9:55
  Speaker 0: And yeah I had incredibly overwhelming me a lot of positive feedback after that experience.
• 10:06
  Speaker 0: um Yeah...and then that's why i thought oh maybe do these things more and more seriously, you know?
• 10:16
  Speaker 0: Just continue this.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: And is that as in the next phase of your work—you've just moved to Australia—the next phase or your work are going to focus more on that kind of innovative experimental integrative kind-of work?
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah,
• 10:43
  Speaker 0: I think i would continue on both as much As I could.
• 10:48
  Speaker 0: Western classical music always inspires me.
• 10:50
  Speaker 0: there's so much to learn and You know still.
• 10:54
  Speaker 0: I have to hone my skill as a violinist.
• 10:57
  Speaker 0: if I don't practice it gets worse.
• 10:59
  Speaker 0: So I will definitely continue.
• 11:01
  Speaker 0: I love doing this but also I would love to continue these kind of interdisciplinary works because that also where I could be as creative, which i'm really passionate about.
• 11:16
  Speaker 0: So let me just continue on what I did at Unboxed Musicians after that concert.
• 11:25
  Speaker 0: After that, I was actually trying to do more projects like that.
• 11:30
  Speaker 0: I did an all-new music concert at this art gallery where audiences can walk around the gallery and musicians were stationed in different places And i also did this uh collaboration with robotic artist Dr.
• 11:46
  Speaker 0: Medley Gunn Where I was choreographing the robots and creating music for it.
• 11:52
  Speaker 0: It was Very satisfying work, you know high artistry but then I realized Money-wise it wasn't working.
• 12:03
  Speaker 0: so Right now.
• 12:06
  Speaker 0: I'm actually starting a new project that is Going to create more revenue for unbox musicians which is mini music box.
• 12:15
  Speaker 0: It's the childrens music Project and one of the reason why I shifted two Children's Music is First of all, because I felt that rather than knocking on the grown-up market where i have to compete so much with already given music markets there is a popular music and you know.
• 12:44
  Speaker 0: There's so much other music there they can go.
• 12:49
  Speaker 0: Whereas with Children's Music Market, there is not much high-quality art I feel.
• 12:55
  Speaker 0: Or if there are any it's outdated like Peter and the Wolf was almost a hundred years ago.
• 13:02
  Speaker 0: So i felt that need to supply more High Art To Children's music market And I would love Not just looking for audience but grow The Audience For Us In The Future.
• 13:18
  Speaker 0: In the market, there's like Ping-Fong who is creating baby shark series.
• 13:24
  Speaker 0: And there's Coco Melon and Miss Rachel.
• 13:27
  Speaker 0: by the way they're great but I feel rather than creating artistic value those are more focused on educational values.
• 13:37
  Speaker 0: so kids growing up listening to these simplistic songs or media arrangements.
• 13:46
  Speaker 0: I read somewhere the children's musical tastes are formed by age five.
• 13:53
  Speaker 0: So, by neglecting that window and simply supplying those midi-arranged simple nursery rhymes we're missing a critical window to actually grow future audience for classical music market.
• 14:09
  Speaker 0: so yeah i saw the gap but...we can do something artistically satisfying here as well, teaching them music as music itself.
• 14:24
  Speaker 0: And there are a lot of institutions who already have community outreach programs but for a lot is just a box to tick you know?
• 14:38
  Speaker 0: So with this project I'm doing mini-music box.
• 14:41
  Speaker 0: we're not creating repertoire audiences like that speed to see.
• 14:48
  Speaker 0: We're gonna have animations and some engaging episodes on YouTube, but also we are trying to create a package so they can use those to minimize the prep time for their children's music program concerts and experiences with less than, I would say less then one-tenth of cost in prep time.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Sounds like a fabulous project.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: what i'd like to do is take that and put it into context for unboxed musicians.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: let's start the conversation this way What problem is Unboxed Musicians designed to solve?
• 15:43
  Speaker 0: The classical music concert are so formalized, there's nothing new to expect.
• 15:50
  Speaker 0: And we have a big competition YouTube!
• 15:54
  Speaker 0: Anyone can experience belly and feel from youtube at home for free right?
• 16:01
  Speaker 0: So when they're going into the concert hall I feel obligation to create something new on top of just listening to music.
• 16:18
  Speaker 0: So that is what I'm trying to give the audience as well, and there's some prejudice against contemporary music.
• 16:29
  Speaker 0: like when people think about contemporary music they think Schoenberg which was a hundred years ago right?
• 16:37
  Speaker 0: And i feel with more help interdisciplinary elements, whether that is a talk or arts or visual projection or anything else.
• 16:51
  Speaker 0: It could help them understand new music a lot more.
• 16:55
  Speaker 0: I personally experienced this at New York Symphony where i was giving up pre-concert talks to the audience about Schoenberg and then after that they were just laughing understanding the music more, why Schoenberg wrote such terrifying music for example.
• 17:14
  Speaker 0: So I think right context is very important to understand contemporary music and for musicians or artists we exist to achieve two things simultaneously.
• 17:28
  Speaker 0: one is financial sustainability.
• 17:32
  Speaker 0: second thing is artistic sustainability.
• 17:37
  Speaker 0: What do war lessons from GASA, Rethinking Education, Peace in Ukraine and Visionary Leadership have in common?
• 17:45
  Speaker 0: They are all themes from recent episodes of this podcast.
• 17:49
  Speaker 0: Check out more episodes on tellbergfoundation.org or a platform over your choice.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: So the problem is changing audience experience given all competition available And from the artist's point of view, making new music creation sustainable in a financial sense but also in marketing sense.
• 18:23
  Speaker 0: Yeah exactly
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: How does unboxed musicians try to solve those problems?
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: for not just you But presumably other unboxed musician?
• 18:33
  Speaker 0: So Alan how familiar are with this commissioning system or old model?
• 18:39
  Speaker 0: for composers to create new music.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: The existing system, of course is commission driven?
• 18:47
  Speaker 0: Yes!
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: That requires a commissioner and a commissioned... And the whole process of getting known and having commissions
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: etc.,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: which is difficult.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Entry level is complicated.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Question is given that reality you seem talking about a packaged commission model.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, which I suspect is new thinking.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: what?
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Is they package vision model?
• 19:19
  Speaker 0: Yeah So as you said there the existing model is a Commission model Which has given to top one percent of the composers who already have substantial portfolio.
• 19:32
  Speaker 0: and another problem with that existing model it's one-time commission.
• 19:39
  Speaker 0: There is not much follow up after that.
• 19:42
  Speaker 0: So, After the composers create their music and then there are a premiere maybe three ten if they're big composers They have to sort of let the music follows its fate right?
• 19:57
  Speaker 0: It's quite different from pop music model.
• 20:01
  Speaker 0: In classical music models it's quite passive And takes years for the piece to be known if it is rediscovered.
• 20:12
  Speaker 0: So, unbox musicians tried to solve both of these problems.
• 20:17
  Speaker 0: so this package commission model is designed to support early career composers especially those composers who never had commissioned before!
• 20:30
  Speaker 0: First we are providing educational opportunities with a twelve-week workshop on Zoom different composers and librettists, I'm part of the faculty as well.
• 20:44
  Speaker 0: So they can really have assistance in creating a level of art that both help them with their portfolio but also guarantees mini-music box to have high quality art at the end.
• 21:03
  Speaker 0: Secondly we are providing professional portfolios So they will have a really cool recording and people can Google you out basically.
• 21:13
  Speaker 0: That's very important now, And the one line in their resume that had their commission from MiniMusicBox.
• 21:25
  Speaker 0: It gives them credibility to open doors for many more opportunities.
• 21:32
  Speaker 0: Lastly we are trying bring some financial incentives to them.
• 21:37
  Speaker 0: So, you know for early choreo composers it's very common for them to work for free basically or they have to pay to get their pieces played by professional ensemble.
• 21:52
  Speaker 0: and here I'm trying to get a little bit of money upfront as honorarium but also keep paying out royalties continue to market this music and creating different versions of music that we can supply it to the institutions I told you about within that package.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: So, to drill down a little further who pays?
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: what do they pay for?
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: And how did the artists Earned money over time which you identified earlier as one of the problems.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: One off is a difficult way to make A living.
• 22:37
  Speaker 0: so mini music box, it's a beat-to-beat to see model.
• 22:40
  Speaker 0: So we have two target audience here.
• 22:44
  Speaker 0: We had be too sea audience through YouTube channels and ebooks.
• 22:51
  Speaker 0: There will be some materials available online and globally And BtoB partners will be the institutions who are already providing these children's music program.
• 23:04
  Speaker 0: They're in desperate need of new repertoire and for classroom as well, they don't really have much resources out there.
• 23:15
  Speaker 0: so we are trying to create a really nice package and turnkey solution for these institutions, so that will be our primary revenue.
• 23:28
  Speaker 0: And then as it builds out we're going to consolidate this BtoB-to-C model because the more these music are known and played there would demand a live concert as well.
• 23:44
  Speaker 0: So this is like positive feedback loop that is reinforcing each other.
• 23:50
  Speaker 0: Yeah, and I forgot to tell you there are two really cute characters And we're gonna have colorful paintings with them.
• 24:01
  Speaker 0: When creating these children's music series We also consider parents as well because they are the audience and primary caretakers.
• 24:12
  Speaker 0: They choose what they are going to play for kids, right?
• 24:17
  Speaker 0: So that is another aim.
• 24:20
  Speaker 0: We also satisfy the parents with high artistic quality.
• 24:25
  Speaker 0: so yeah... That's our plan!
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: And do you see this as in terms of markets?
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Do You See This As A Global Phenomenon?
• 24:37
  Speaker 0: One of the perks being a musician Is Your Friends Are Everywhere In The World.
• 24:44
  Speaker 0: So yes, I am aimed to have this available globally.
• 24:52
  Speaker 0: Um, I already had friends in Montreal um In Miami and Korea And of course here in Australia will be myself who are interested in bringing these packages and trying.
• 25:08
  Speaker 0: Yeah, and these packages have incredibly low localization cost about seven hundred dollars per episode.
• 25:17
  Speaker 0: So I can replicate this package in many different languages and, you know think of Baby Shark it has sixteen different versions in different languages.
• 25:30
  Speaker 0: so that is something i can do easily.
• 25:35
  Speaker 0: And the trend i see everywhere actually in Korea Australia in the US as well is that there are more and more interest in children's music program.
• 25:51
  Speaker 0: So I think people now shifting their focus to really growing, The next generation of the audience And i expect That There will be More demands for our project.
• 26:05
  Speaker 0: Aswell
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Come at all of this as a musician.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Your background is in music.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: I've read your interviews At Yale and elsewhere that you had to learn a new language.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: You had to think differently about challenges and problems.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: And obviously, as our conversation over the last half hour has demonstrated You have a business mindset As well as a Music Mindset.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Was it difficult?
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: to learn that new language, that language of business and a business framing?
• 26:43
  Speaker 0: Well for myself I think it was just moment when i shifted the perspective.
• 26:50
  Speaker 0: Like money-wise I was always aware because I started working when I was fifteen And I was quite independent since I was eighteen growing up so know about money, but then thinking of the business which is more like not just making money for myself to pay for living.
• 27:13
  Speaker 0: But also I have to create revenue for everyone else who's involved in my project right?
• 27:19
  Speaker 0: That's when i started shifting my thoughts and thinking how can I get this revenue?
• 27:27
  Speaker 0: How Can I Help other musicians shift their thinking?
• 27:32
  Speaker 0: because that thing is, classical musicians are so accustomed to be selected not creating revenue for themselves.
• 27:45
  Speaker 0: So what happens?
• 27:47
  Speaker 0: They're undervaluing work basically One of the projects I did in the past musician, artist.
• 28:01
  Speaker 0: And I was trying to get the money.
• 28:04
  Speaker 0: basically it's like guys i will negotiate and try to get you something at least...and then they were like well I don't need money!
• 28:15
  Speaker 0: I'm thankful that people are listening to my music..I can work for free because its new music ,it's their own music so creates value for the audience.
• 28:29
  Speaker 0: because they're so used to that, this kind of concert has to be free.
• 28:35
  Speaker 0: And on the other side... They are trying to get jobs which actually gives them real security and money.
• 28:44
  Speaker 0: So there's a custom to follow their security rather than what they really passionate about.
• 28:55
  Speaker 0: Yeah, there's also a culture of not paying for concert tickets or not paying these small concerts like you're paying for coffee.
• 29:10
  Speaker 0: There was an interesting data I saw where this organization shifted free concerts to pay what you wish and Interestingly, when the audiences were paying for their own tickets even if it's like five dollars.
• 29:33
  Speaker 0: The attendance rate was much higher by forty percent as I remember.
• 29:39
  Speaker 0: and yeah there satisfaction level is high here because people value more what they are painful.
• 29:48
  Speaker 0: so at end i want to create this culture of paying they're appreciating.
• 29:57
  Speaker 0: Not just because, you know I want money but then in capitalist society where clapping doesn't pay rent and people are giving gifts as appreciation right?
• 30:12
  Speaker 0: And i think giving money to concerts so the concert can keep going it can be also a way for people you know, keep the things they love going as well.
• 30:29
  Speaker 0: So yes those are two thoughts and experience that make me shift from my own entrepreneur to actual venture leader.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: so let me ask a last question fast forward.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: five years it's twenty thirty one.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: what would
• 30:52
  Speaker 0: prove
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: that unboxed musicians was a success?
• 30:57
  Speaker 0: Well, first of all I think it will look like having an engaged loyal audience base.
• 31:04
  Speaker 0: That allow us to operate without desperately relying on grants and then we would have built a creative ecosystem where we're generating enough revenue to consistently hire musicians and artists, pay them what they are actually worth.
• 31:27
  Speaker 0: Ensuring that the creation of new works never
• 31:31
  Speaker 0: stops.".
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: And on that notice... We will stop!
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Ye Jin Min thank you very much for this conversation.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: it's a fabulously interesting project.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: there is very few musicians I know who understand The price of zero means the value is zero.
• 31:48
  Speaker 0: Yeah,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: so I wish you the best of luck in on your crusade but a crusade with a purpose to make good business for.