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The Thai Restaurant Conspiracy · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the Man,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: the Myth, the Legend, Max pad Tie.
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  Speaker 2: Williams, Max pad see you Williams.
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  Speaker 1: May uh the good deal Williams.
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  Speaker 2: That's a good one. I like padra Hey, there you go. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: that's not on topic. Max, that's not on brand.
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  Speaker 1: Max Man Williams not none other than the one and
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  Speaker 1: only mister Noel Brown. They call me Ben Bullen in
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  Speaker 1: various parts of the world, and Noel, I think it's
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  Speaker 1: fair to say that we love thy food, right, you
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  Speaker 1: love a good lie food.
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  Speaker 2: I love it. Yeah, no, sorry, that wasn't really an
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  Speaker 2: escalation at all, no big fan. One of my favorite
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  Speaker 2: things to cook. I got my start employment wise working
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  Speaker 2: in a kitchen in a restaurant in my hometown, and
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  Speaker 2: they had a handful of tie things on the menu,
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  Speaker 2: including a pad tie, and that's where I kind of
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  Speaker 2: cut my teeth cooking, and a lot of those things
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  Speaker 2: have served me well to this day. I love making
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  Speaker 2: a green curry, veggie or meatd you know, whatever, whatever
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  Speaker 2: you got I'm here for it. That's awesome.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we hope that a lot of us tuning
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  Speaker 1: in tonight also enjoy Thai food. If you have not
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  Speaker 1: tried Thai cuisine, oh, friends and neighbors, you are missing out.
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  Speaker 2: What are you doing? What do you do your life?
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  Speaker 2: Get out there, get into it, to a Thai restaurant,
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  Speaker 2: this this instant. Put this episode on pause and come back,
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  Speaker 2: and then it'll be much more fun for you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, come back with some noodles. Come back with with
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  Speaker 1: a flat noodle you like. I love a flat wide noodle.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Uh. Thailand is located in Southeast Asia, and the cuisine
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  Speaker 1: of the country, Thaie cuisine or ahan Thai, is regularly
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  Speaker 1: breeded as one of the best types of food on
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  Speaker 1: the planet. In fact, several poles just recently found that
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  Speaker 1: Thailand is the world's best country for food travel.
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  Speaker 2: It just has such a vibrant mix of ingredients. You know,
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  Speaker 2: you got your lime, bright flavors, you got your your
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  Speaker 2: your curries, you got your spice, you got your crunch
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  Speaker 2: from the peanuts, your noodles, bean sprouts, even even sometimes
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  Speaker 2: you'll see basil and cilantro. It feels like such a
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  Speaker 2: grab bag of ingredients from other types of world cuisines.
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  Speaker 2: It's just it's my favorite.
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  Speaker 1: You nailed it, man, and I'm nodding like, uh, take
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  Speaker 1: me to church style or take me to the watt
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  Speaker 1: the temple. Here is the issue, folks. This is a
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  Speaker 1: country that has historically been at a cultural crossroads, which means,
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  Speaker 1: like you were saying, Noel, there's nothing quite like Ty food.
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  Speaker 1: We also want to give a big shout out to
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  Speaker 1: all of our fellow ridiculous historian heat loving gormands, including
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  Speaker 1: friend of the show Matt f who regularly requests the
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  Speaker 1: hottest food possible whenever you and I eat Thai food
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  Speaker 1: on the road. He's like a heat seeking missile.
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  Speaker 2: That good.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, is yes, that's another thing about it, man, Hi
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  Speaker 1: hot well talking about Ty We'll get there, We'll get there,
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  Speaker 1: We'll get there, well, Matt Surewell, oh boy, really, here's
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  Speaker 1: the thing I was thinking about this earlier.
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  Speaker 2: Man.
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  Speaker 1: Wherever you and I go, in our many adventures on
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  Speaker 1: the road, we always find a tie restaurant. Isn't that strange?
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  Speaker 2: It is? I mean it will not once we get
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  Speaker 2: into the deats today, but I will tell you that
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  Speaker 2: I think you know I've been spending a good amount
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  Speaker 2: of time in Germany over the last few years, in
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  Speaker 2: Berlin specifically, and it has some of the best Thai
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  Speaker 2: food I've ever had anywhere, period, full stop. Now, I've
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  Speaker 2: never been to Thailand, so reserving judgment there. But in
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  Speaker 2: New York City, you know, Los Angeles, other parts of
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  Speaker 2: the world, Berlin has it beat.
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  Speaker 1: Also, folks, just to peek behind the curtain. Not to
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  Speaker 1: gas you up too much, Nol, but you are pretty
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  Speaker 1: big deal in Germany, and I hope that you will
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  Speaker 1: agree on air to take Maxim myself with you at
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  Speaker 1: some point.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, I'd love to. I wouldn't say a big deal.
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  Speaker 2: I was, however, once a small German boy and that
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  Speaker 2: has served me well in my travels to deutsch Land.
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  Speaker 2: I love it there. I love Berlin. It's got such
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  Speaker 2: a vibrant, you know, music scene, and cultural scene and
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  Speaker 2: culinary scene that isn't just schnitzel and donors, which are
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  Speaker 2: also great, but yeah, excellent Thie and Vietnamese food there
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  Speaker 2: in Berlin, specifically in the neighborhood of friedrich Heim friedrichs
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  Speaker 2: Hein not shy Hein, Yes, yes, all.
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  Speaker 1: Right, take notes, folks, write that one down and this,
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  Speaker 1: This mystified us originally as we were traveling around. You
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  Speaker 1: might be familiar with Germany, you might be familiar with Thailand,
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  Speaker 1: and you might realize that those two countries are very
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  Speaker 1: far away from each other. So why is there such
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  Speaker 1: a strong tradition of Thai cuisine across the planet. Thailand
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  Speaker 1: has a population of well less than eighty million people,
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  Speaker 1: and it's not a particularly wealthy country, but Thai food
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  Speaker 1: and Thai restaurants are somehow a global phenomena. If you
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  Speaker 1: go anywhere except Antarctica, the odds are that you're going
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  Speaker 1: to be pretty close.
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  Speaker 2: To a Thai restaurant one hundred percent. And this is
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  Speaker 2: not for nothing. This is not for nothing. We started
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  Speaker 2: asking ourselves. We put our noggets together and we said, hey,
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  Speaker 2: how did this come about? How did this one relatively
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  Speaker 2: small area of Asia become a dominant force in the
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  Speaker 2: world of food? And the answer, we kid you not, folks,
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  Speaker 2: is a conspiracy. I don't know what sound but what
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  Speaker 2: sound cue?
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  Speaker 1: Can we use?
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  Speaker 2: Some sort of dump dum dumb? Perhaps, I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: We leave it to mass aside, but it's true, this
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  Speaker 2: is not something that would be too out of place,
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  Speaker 2: and our sister shows stuff they don't want you to know,
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  Speaker 2: which is now available on Netflix, two episodes a week.
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  Speaker 2: Can you believe it? It's out, It's out there in
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  Speaker 2: the world. I watched a little bit of it. It looks
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  Speaker 2: really good.
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  Speaker 1: Hey.
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  Speaker 2: You video team that we work with here at iHeart
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  Speaker 2: did a fantastic job sending us toys and lights, cameras, action,
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  Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. And it's very real now.
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  Speaker 2: And the fine folks at Netflix have been really delightful
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  Speaker 2: to work with. So if you're interested in seeing our
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  Speaker 2: mugs plastered across the screen, do get ye to Netflix.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, high v fourth and toss us, toss us a light,
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  Speaker 1: toss us a double like a little thumbs up or
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  Speaker 1: whatever the newmen cleature is. And you know what I'm thinking.
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  Speaker 1: Our video team worked so hard that they doubtlessly had
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  Speaker 1: a couple of late nights, which probably meant they ordered Thai.
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  Speaker 2: Food, I would like to think. So it's a very
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  Speaker 2: good delivery option wherever you are, right.
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  Speaker 1: It's so fast, it's so versatile. Anyway, to understand how
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  Speaker 1: this became a global thing and why it's part of
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  Speaker 1: our ridiculous history exploration, we have to look at the
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  Speaker 1: beginnings of what we call Thai food today, and Noel,
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  Speaker 1: I think we would both not be surprised to learn
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  Speaker 1: that Thai food dates back thousands and thousands of years
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  Speaker 1: and has a lot in common with China.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely does. You can trace the origins of Thai food,
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  Speaker 2: as you said, been back thousands of years when the
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  Speaker 2: area that we now refer to as Thailand experienced a
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  Speaker 2: huge influx of people from neighboring regions, including modern day China,
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  Speaker 2: and just like nearly anywhere else in the world, the
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  Speaker 2: folks living there worked with the available ingredients.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And the interesting part here is that, unlike
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  Speaker 1: other parts of the world, Thailand was absolutely brimming with
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  Speaker 1: all kinds of tasty cool stuff, especially produce. Right Historically,
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  Speaker 1: the majority of meals would feature aquatic plants or animals, herbs,
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  Speaker 1: herbs for days. There's a great deal of biodiversity, for sure,
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  Speaker 1: which lends itself to a strong tradition of regional cuisine.
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  Speaker 1: And unlike some of the perhaps less hospitable climates are there.
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  Speaker 2: You go, well, yeah, yeah, for sure. What is it
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  Speaker 2: called lutfisk? No, that's different. I'm talking about the shark.
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  Speaker 2: The shark. That's the only way they can do it,
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  Speaker 2: they's got to bury it in the ground until it Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: it's interesting. No, no, no daning on Scandinavian cuisine. But
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  Speaker 2: I was just recently in Denmark, and while they have
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  Speaker 2: some fabulous food options, the local regional cuisine not my bag.
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  Speaker 1: Denmark has has a grand tradition of Indonesian cuisine.
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  Speaker 2: So Thailand, on the other hand, unlike some of those
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  Speaker 2: colder and more arid regions, has an absolute embarrassment of
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  Speaker 2: delightful culinary riches and has. You know, since Thailanders were
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  Speaker 2: Thai landing, it was also far from isolated, surrounded by
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  Speaker 2: other regions with vibrant cuisines and cultures of their own,
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  Speaker 2: places like India, Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, which goes back to your original point, right, because
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  Speaker 1: now Thailand or the area that becomes modern day Thailand,
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  Speaker 1: is amalgamating and sort of remixing all these dishes to
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  Speaker 1: fit local taste, availability of ingredients. And there's also a
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  Speaker 1: really interesting tradition of Buddhism, which means there's not a
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  Speaker 1: huge emphasis on meat. And I thought you would love
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  Speaker 1: this too, because you know, here in the West, we
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  Speaker 1: often treat meat or your protein as the big tent item.
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  Speaker 2: PLoP it on down like a chunk. That's your big
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  Speaker 2: old piece of piece of beast. There. No, they treat
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  Speaker 2: it with equal import and respect as they do to
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  Speaker 2: other ingredients. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so now it's like instead of meat being the
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  Speaker 1: lead guitar in a song, it's an instrument that goes
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  Speaker 1: into this complex kind of harmony. We've got four I
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  Speaker 1: guess we could call them rough categories of traditional tie puisine.
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  Speaker 1: And it's going to make sense when you hear.
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  Speaker 2: It, folks, especially when you combine the strong cultural influence
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  Speaker 2: of Buddhism that adds to that lack of emphasis towards
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  Speaker 2: meat as being the center of the attraction and ben
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  Speaker 2: real quick aside, have you been watching or have you
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  Speaker 2: watched Culinary Class Wars on Netflix?
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  Speaker 1: I've heard of it. I haven't checked it out. Actually
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  Speaker 1: I thought of you, but as you know, I'm in
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  Speaker 1: a place right now where I don't get the best
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  Speaker 1: Netflix choices. But it's also.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can know. Yeah, sometimes VPNs are not the
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: catch all fixer upper that they used to be. A
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: lot of these apps now detect you're using one, and
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  Speaker 2: they will not play nice. But the thing that's so
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  Speaker 2: cool about Culinary Class Wars is believe it's based in Korea,
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  Speaker 2: but it has representation from all of these other types
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  Speaker 2: of cuisine, from Chinese to Japanese to even like you know,
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  Speaker 2: fusion type cuisines. And speaking of the Buddhist influence, one
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  Speaker 2: thing that I learned about that maybe would be an
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  Speaker 2: interesting episode on its own sometime is the culture of
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  Speaker 2: temple food. There is a very specific culture around food
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  Speaker 2: prepared by monks at these sacred places of worship, which
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  Speaker 2: of course are to lean entirely vegetarian. And one of
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  Speaker 2: my favorite contestants in the new season of Clinic Class Wars,
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  Speaker 2: I forget her name, but she's referred to as the
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  Speaker 2: Venerable and then whatever her name was, And she's this
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  Speaker 2: delightful little monk and consistently kicks the butts of some
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  Speaker 2: of these meat heavy dishes with her wonderful, purely vegetarian
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  Speaker 2: and occasionally vegan offerings.
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  Speaker 1: Beautiful, beautiful, and we see it often for any current
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  Speaker 1: vegans or vegetarians in the crowd. I had put my
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  Speaker 1: time in as a vegan in the past. I was
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  Speaker 1: vegetarian for several years and I gotta tell you, vegetarian
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  Speaker 1: food can slap. It's all about the sauces, it's all
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  Speaker 1: about the spices. It's probably better for you.
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  Speaker 2: It's definitely great. I will cook vegetarian cuisine just out
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  Speaker 2: of love of it, not for any kind of health reasons.
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  Speaker 2: I quite often, if I'm making a Thai dish, will
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  Speaker 2: leave the meat out, or if I'm making a nice chili,
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  Speaker 2: will do like a meatless chili, just because so many
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  Speaker 2: wonderful ingredients that have so much flavor that they can
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  Speaker 2: add that are meatless. Yeah, nice papaya salad for instance, right, Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: green papaya salad. Not to say that I don't love
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  Speaker 2: a larb ben, I love a larb. I love a
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  Speaker 2: lob that's like sort of like a meat salad kind
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  Speaker 2: of thing with like, yeah, mince minced mincet, like pork
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  Speaker 2: or beat. I think it's usually pork, and it has
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  Speaker 2: lots of lime in it, and it's just such a vibrant, wonderful,
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  Speaker 2: bright flavor.
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  Speaker 1: And the fish sauce is a big deal. And I'm
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  Speaker 1: glad we're mentioning salads because that's one of the primary
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  Speaker 1: four loose categories of Tai cuisine. It's called yam spicy salads.
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  Speaker 1: Then you got tam pounded foods, you know, with a
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  Speaker 1: mortar and pestle.
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  Speaker 2: That would be like a green papaya salad where you
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  Speaker 2: use a mortar and pestle to smash all that stuff
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  Speaker 2: up or to make to make your pastes as well.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, just so your some thumb and stuff. Then
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  Speaker 1: you have kang Those are pretty much the curries, very
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  Speaker 1: heavy Indian influence. And then you have the tom boiled dishes.
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  Speaker 1: This brings in soup as well. You've got deep frying,
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  Speaker 1: stir frying, steaming. Those all come from Chinese culture. India
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  Speaker 1: got there first. Weirdly enough, in fifteen eleven, European cultures
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  Speaker 1: entered the menu because the Portuguese arrived and the people
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  Speaker 1: of modern day Thailand just started folding in Portuguese influences
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  Speaker 1: as well, similar in some.
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  Speaker 2: Ways to Vietnam.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the origin story of the bond me right.
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  Speaker 2: Ever, sent was gonna say the same thing, which is
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  Speaker 2: like got French baguettes and you know, various other more
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  Speaker 2: indigenous ingredients. But it really does show the influence of
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  Speaker 2: those good old colonizers. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the way to see it sure, mad Hey,
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  Speaker 1: we're talking about diplomacy here, gastro diplomacy.
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  Speaker 2: I just figured I would set the tone.
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  Speaker 1: You nailed it. You nailed it by Fred. So it's
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  Speaker 1: strange because we consider all of this ancient history. In
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  Speaker 1: a very real way. We could say that Thai cuisine
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  Speaker 1: has been global since the sixteenth century, but it doesn't
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  Speaker 1: quite answer our original question, which you've set up so
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  Speaker 1: beautifully here, Noel, why are Thai restaurants everywhere? The answer
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  Speaker 1: is gastro diplomacy.
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  Speaker 2: Well, can I also say been leading into this, I
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  Speaker 2: definitely remember a time where there weren't Thai restaurants everywhere, right, Yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: And it may well be that I was young and
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  Speaker 2: wasn't aware of that as a cuisine as an option,
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  Speaker 2: maybe until I started working in that restaurant in my twenties,
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  Speaker 2: but I'm pretty sure I'm right that. Like you know,
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  Speaker 2: I distinctly remember going to lots of Chinese food places
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  Speaker 2: growing up, and Japanese you know, hibachi type places, but
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  Speaker 2: I do not remember there being nearly as many Thai
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  Speaker 2: restaurants as there are today.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the thing, Okay, This global popularity is
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  Speaker 1: not organic, and it is not accidental. We've mentioned the
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  Speaker 1: phrase a couple of times. Gastro Diplomacy is the idea
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  Speaker 1: that the easiest way to win hearts, minds, global support,
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  Speaker 1: and tourism dollars is not to send a military to
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: a foreign country. Hm, it's to go through the stomach
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  Speaker 1: of the people who live there. And you nailed it
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  Speaker 1: with saying that you don't remember right in your younger days,
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  Speaker 1: you don't remember a bunch of Thai restaurants because this
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  Speaker 1: gastro diplomacy of Thailand didn't really begin in until the
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  Speaker 1: early two thousands. And shout out to our friend of
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  Speaker 1: the show and guest Ross Bettish who persuaded us to
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: move our limit of ridiculous history up a little bit
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  Speaker 1: the nineties. This is the two thousands.
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  Speaker 2: And also a shout out to friend of the show
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Alex French for taking us on a culinary journey. It's
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: one of my favorite restaurants and all of New York City,
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: which is called way La, which is a mega We've
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: been there a couple times together. Ben. It is a
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: kind of mega plused up fusionie Thai restaurant that does
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: things in a traditional way sometimes but also does some
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: interesting spins on it, and I find it to be
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: one of my favorite restaurants that I've ever been to.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: So if you're ever in New York City, it's in
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: the Lower East Side, right on the edge of Chinatown.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Do check out Wayla. Really love those.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Guys, love them too, man. We've got to do the
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: story just for the respect of Alex French, writing partner
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: of mine on a couple of different projects, and also
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: I think a huge friend of ours and a friend
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  Speaker 1: of the show. Noel, you use the word journey. Can
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: you please share our can you? Can you please share
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: our story about Alex, our buddy.
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  Speaker 2: Alex definitely exercised a bit of a foodie flex when
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  Speaker 2: ordering for the table. Uh that some might might look
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  Speaker 2: askance that, but I think it's a it's a it's
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  Speaker 2: a brilliant move and you were skeptical at first, yielded
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  Speaker 2: excellent results. He just asked the delightful server to take
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: us on a journey.
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  Speaker 1: And Nolan and I both had these what uh these
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  Speaker 1: these incredible like almost telepathic uh looks at each other
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  Speaker 1: when we thought, what the hell is this guy doing? Uh?
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  Speaker 1: We thought the We thought the server and the staff
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  Speaker 1: would be mad, but lo and behold. The guy just
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  Speaker 1: nodded at our pal, Alex French, and then gave us
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  Speaker 1: one of the most amazing meals of our lives.
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  Speaker 2: Well, because a place like that typically the staff are
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  Speaker 2: invested in the quality of the place. They are invested in,
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  Speaker 2: you know, the nuances of the different dishes, and they're
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  Speaker 2: proud of it. So it gives them an opportunity to
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: exercise a little kind of creative agency. And we were
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: all utterly there for it.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: We were, And I've got to tell you, I don't
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: believe you or I could have pulled that move off
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  Speaker 1: on our own. Alex French has been a long time
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  Speaker 1: foodie and food critic for places like GQ, so he can.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Get away with it. He sure can. Let's see gastro
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: to plums. Oh, you know, this reminds me of It's
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: actually a pretty good companion episode to our recent exploration
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: of ping pong as being another kind of form of
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: diplomacy sport policy. I guess, right, with China and parts
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: of Asia sort of exporting their players and their love
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: of the game, you know, to the rest of the world.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Beautiful.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I started in England.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Right right, And do check out that episode that was
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: a banger, and I was still That was one of
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: the episodes where after we recorded it, I found myself
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: tempted to buy a table tennis kit.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, once I get my garage cleared out, I
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: may well actually do that. Currently, we should do economy fun.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: It would be so much fun. Like I said, we
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: can definitely get our practice in with Frank and his
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: new table tennis. Yes.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: And the term gastro diplomacy is so recent. I think
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: it was first popularized in an article by the Economists
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: back in two thousand and two, specifically discussing Thailand as
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: conspiracies go, this is wholesome and delicious. There was a
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: previous administration from like two thousand and one to two
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: thousand and six called the Thoscan Administration, and they launched
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: this program called Kitchen of the World, and they said,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: we're going to treat Thai food purposely as a cultural export.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: We're going to acquire soft power similar to you know,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Asiatic countries and Ping pong. We're going to do something
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: kind of like how the United States used Hollywood to
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: popularize American culture post World War two.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they put their money where their mouth was.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: They you know, funded it quite heavily. In the first
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: couple of years. They allotted a yearly budget a five
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: hundred million bot to provide loans and training to Thie
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: nationals or people of Thai descent who wanted to start
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: a Thai restaurant not there in their country but abroad. Yeah.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: So for comparison, folks, if you know your if you
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: know where your ancestors are from, which not everybody does,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: imagine that country, that origin country of your ancestors came
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: to you and said, hey, we want you to kind
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: of work for us and start a restaurant. Like Noel,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: you have a Swedish heritage, correct, I think.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: I was vaguely Nordic if I remember. Correct. That one
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: of the earliest days of ancestry dot com. So it
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: was a pretty underwhelming result. I think now it's more complex,
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: mapping of the human genome and all that stuff and
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: all of the new data. I'd probably get a little
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: bit more info if I spit a second time.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: So I'm for the sake of argument, let's imagine that
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: you got a letter from the government of Sweden that said,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Noel Brown, as a son of Sweden, we need you
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: to help US with diplomacy. We want you to start
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: a Swedish restaurant. We're going to give you interest free loans,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: We're going to train you to cook traditional Swedish cuisine.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, we'll give you a discount
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: on ingredients. That's what the government of Thailand did. They
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: even made a certification program called Thai Select to popularize
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: ingredients imported from Thailand, not just making them more affordable,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: but more available. And at the time, going back to
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: your earlier example, a lot of these ingredients were either
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: tremendously expensive or they were just stuff you had no
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: chance of finding outside of Southeast Asia.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and some of these, you know, are not the
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: easiest things to find today. We're really lucky here in
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Atlanta to be blessed with the incredible footy corridor of
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Beufford Highway where you can find things like kafir, lime
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: leaves and Thai chilis and stuff. But you're not always
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: going to find things like that at your local grocery store,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: even in the international food section. Right.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: And additionally, the government of Thailand uses its massive reach
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: to rope in high value investors domestically and abroad. They
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: even get this, guys. They even leveraged Thailand's aviation industry.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Thai Airways would transport these materials and this equipment abroad,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: and then the Tourism Authority of Thailand got tapped to
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: emphasize how cool Thai cuisine is. They were basically going
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: around the planet and Madmen style making a pitch. They
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: would say, you can experience Thailand right in your own hometown.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: This is brilliant. It leads to another program called the
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Global Thaie Program. At this time in two thousand and two,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: there are maybe five thousand, five hundred Thai restaurants in
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: foreign countries.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Around the world. Not that many, right, No, No, it
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: certainly not. I mean, you know, Chinese restaurants would be
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: certainly in them.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: You know what millions, I mean, there were a lot more, say,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, like we know that the Chinese restaurants
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: have been a staple of American cuisine for many, many,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: many years, and they've probably only grown. So, yeah, this
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: is a fraction they drop in the bucket. Yeah, and
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: that makes sense because there are a lot of people
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: of Chinese descent in the United States, right and the
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: country of China itself is huge. It's one of the
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: most populous countries on the planet. Thailand is very different.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: A lot of people may never make it to Thailand,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of people may never learn the language of Thailand.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: But now it's making a splash on dinner plates, on bulls,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: on palettes all the world round. They are literally winning
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: hearts and minds, and the numbers prove it.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: And I'm sorry, millions is absurd, but you know, in
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: the close to one hundred thousand according to some figures
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: of Chinese restaurants in the United States. So we're going
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: to get to how Thaie stacks up to that in
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: just a little bit. So the Thai government wanted to
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: up this number significantly from in the five hundreds to
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: around eight thousand, and by twenty eleven their efforts were
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: paying off, with more than ten thousand Thai restaurants located
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: around the world. This does not count the many more
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Asian fusion restaurants like I think White Law would would
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: fall into that, even though they also do traditional tie
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: by that point, so we're not including more fusion e
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: type restaurants in that number.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now we're talking about restaurants that might have a
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: few Thai dishes on the menu. So, like you were saying,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: learning about pad Thaie, which we'll we'll get to in
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: a moment, because that's our that's one of our best
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: examples for the class.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: So there were certainly the one most people know about.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, in the West, for sure, there were restaurants
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: that were solely Thai restaurants, and then there were many
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: more restaurants that were also serving Thai dishes using Thai ingredients.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: And the boffins and the eggheads and the Nbas start
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: studying this success. Folks at the Kellogg School of Management
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: partner with Asasan Institute, and they say, holy smokes, it
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: turns out that Thai cuisine, because of this conspiracy, has
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: become one of the most recognizable cuisines on the planet.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: When people were asked what their favorite ethnic cuisine was,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: typically you'd see folks talking about Italian food, French food, Chinese, Indian,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: and Japanese. But suddenly Thai entered the conversation, and that
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: trend continues very much into the modern day. The Georgia
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Political Review had this to say about the Thai food explosion.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Despite high people making up just zero point one percent
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: of the United States population, there are ten thousand Thai
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: restaurants across the country, making the cuisine one of the
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: most popular choices among Americans. Boom, you know.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: It's there's no other way to say it. This is
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: a successful conspiracy. The Global Thaie program transformed this country's
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: cuisine from being othered and exoticized to becoming a part
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: of mainstream American culture. It was a clear indication of
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: gastro diplomacy at work and the at work and working
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: at work and working, yes, sir. Now, to be clear,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: some of the most popular Thai food in the West
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: is a result of these programs, and the stuff you
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: get in your local Thai restaurant may not be exactly
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: what you would get in Thailand. I think a good
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: analogy would be for us to say us to go
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: to comic books or Marvel films. Think about government nerds
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: in a secret lab. They're trying to build a super
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: soldier dish that the locals will love. In this analogy,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: like pad Thai is our Captain America.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: Maybe a little less nefarious than the Weapon X program,
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: though right, I love that reference. Pad Thai is a
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: lot like americanized Chinese food. You know, you go to
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: a Chinese restaurant, and you see things like General Soa
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: chicken and Sessme chicken and stuff, a lot of deep
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: fried things. But if you go to more authentic Chinese restaurants,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: you're not going to see those as much or as highlighted.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: And if you go over to China, you're certainly not
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: going to see a lot of those except for places
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: that maybe cater to American tourists.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: M Yeah, and pad thai is really interesting because it's
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: kind of like jazz. You know, it's got key established ingredients, right,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: canonical stuff. Typically you'll have some meat, tamarind for the sourness, palm,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: sugar fish sauce, eggs, dried shrimp, garlic. You gotta have
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: garlic tofu peanuts, rice and roles, bean sprouts, et cetera.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: But it is so open to interpretation that it leads
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: to all sorts of variations. That's why the pad thaie
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: we eat in Missouri or in San Francisco can taste
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: so incredibly different from the same dish in Singapore or
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: in Munich or what's that neighborhood you named in Berlin,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Friedrich Time or Friederic Thime or Santiago, Chile. It's nuts
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: and you nailed it too, because pad Thai originally is
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: a Chinese invention, but as there's a really strong argument
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: that pad thaie is.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: The it's like.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Waving the flag of Thailand. It is diplomacy.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and while you know, the jazz of it all
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: is going to yield different results depending on where you go,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: all of the flavors are distinctly thaie and highlighting the
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: cuisine of Thailand, you know, without like bastardizing it in
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: some kind of you know, gross way.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a story behind pat tai. It was mainly
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: despite the Chinese origin. It was mainly invented and popularized
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: way back in the late nineteen thirties in Thailand because
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: there was a rice shortage, so people wanted to promote
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: rice noodles. They used fifty percent less grain. It's like
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: the story of Fanta. Oh yeah, and well yeah, I
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: mean we talked about this.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Fanta was a direct result of shortages, wartime shortages of
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: certain ingredients. So they used like apple scraps to make
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: a type of bridge that was branded as Fanta. But
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: it was meant to be like a cola alternative, and
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: it certainly wasn't originally like the orange Fanta that we
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: know today. But there's just I don't know. I'm always
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: fascinated by scarcities leading to things that ultimately become something
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: else in and of themselves.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Would you say you're fantinated?
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, jump in, next, jump in, save me from
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: that pun.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: No, no, you already got the drum, but no Fanta.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: To Nor's point, Fanta was actually a creation in nineteen
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: forty in Nazi Germany because of embargoes, so they couldn't
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: get the actual Coca cola syrup in there, so they
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: had to create something new. Oh phonous backs, he drumm
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: in the knowledge just for you.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: So good there, we got you. And it's still really
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: popular in Europe today. I mean we have it over here,
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: but it's not nearly as popular as it is, you
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: know in say Berlin, Fata Eurovision in it can exactly
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: and honestly, I mean the Fanta over there hits a
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: little different. I don't know why. The bottles are shaped
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: a little different, and I swear the flavor is slightly
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: different and a little bit more refreshing. And we're not
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: saying that Patsai isn't fantastic. It absolutely is delicious wherever
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: you get it. I mean not to say that there
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: aren't some places that you get it where it is
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: bland as I'll get out, and it's not inherently a
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: spicy dish. But you also need to understand, or it's
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: cool to understand the backgrounds, the scarcity that led to
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: the creation of it as a Thai dish and the
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: far from accidental spreading of it as sort of a
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: centerpiece of typ cuisine abroad. Yeah.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Back in the late nineteen thirties, the Thai Prime Minister
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: at the time, Plate Pibin Soulcrum. He emphasized the importance
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: of this dish as a a piece of nationalism, a representation.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Before the initiative that we're talking about. This was still
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: like them saying we need a national dish, and this
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: is going to be the most palatable and recognizable that
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: we could maybe come up with.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the It's kind of like figuring out a
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: good hook or a good chord progression and saying you
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: can play all the let's send this to garage bands
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: across America and let them play that hook with their
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: own instruments and see if they dig it.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: And We've got a little bit of a wartime twist
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: on this story as well. The pad Thai also created
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: a sense of Thai nationalism during World War Two as
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: a cheap street food option that a lot of Thai
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: families really relied on.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And as a result, now the flavors and
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: the role of pad tie. By the way, pad just
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: means fried is weird because it isn't super fried.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: No it's not really, But the.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Name, the taste, the unique canonical ingredients, and the fact
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: that you can jazz on it makes this a dish
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: that connects people to Thai culture directly. And folks, we
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: know this may sound a little bit sketchy. This is
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: not our intent. We're arguing instead, it's a peak example
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: of ridiculous history. This is a country without a huge army,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: without a huge navy, without tons of financial heft like
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: say the United Kingdom, Colonial Powers or the United States.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Somehow this country managed to become a global superstar through
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: food alone.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Strengths.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Play to your strengths. That's a great point. We also
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: have a great quote. I think it's obvious that we
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: all love Anthony bourdet or at least no, you and
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: I love Anthony bourdein Max Max. Do you like Anthony
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Bourdin It's okay to say no.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: I don't know a ton about him, but a lot
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: of people I like really like him.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: So he's just he's a classic bonvivance, you know. He
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: was a classic like dude, just going out there and
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: trying stuff and trying his best to live his most
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: authentic life. Sadly, he had an inn life that didn't
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: translate to the you know, version of himself that was
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: on TV. While seemingly very authentic, and I'm not saying
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: it wasn't. You never really know when people are suffering
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: in silence, and he certainly seems to be doing that.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: So missed that guy. Really, we were all big fans.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Just an absolute legend, beautiful writer, a phenomenal chef as well.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: And he spent a lot of time talking about Thailand.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: And he noted something the government of Thailand noted when
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: they conspired to commit gastro diplomacy.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry make it it sound, but that sounds like
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: commit mad most foul.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: No, gastro diplomacy is great. I think it's the most
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: delightful thing. Yeah, he clocked this universal observation food is
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: one of the only things that unites all human beings,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: so much so that Anthony Bourdin himself once noted food
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: is everything we are. It's an extension of nationalist feeling,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: but not in like the creepy way right ethnic feeling.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Your personal history, your province, your region, your tribe, your grandma.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: It is inseparable from those from the get go.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: And what an amazing way to share those things with
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: others through flavor and actual sustenance. You know, I mean,
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: there's really nothing like it. It's truly a way of
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: sharing your cult sure and your pride and you know
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: your history and your heritage in a way that people
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: can literally stomach.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: There we go, well done. It humanizes all of us.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: If you want to learn about a culture a world away,
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: you can read all the books you like, you can
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: listen to all the podcasts you love, you can watch
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: all the films that country has ever made. You can
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: study it in college or university. But as Thailand has
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: proved beyond all measure of success, if you want to
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: really know a place, you got to eat what they eat.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, you got to eat.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, this episode is technically not brought to you by Checkers.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: A slogan, but we hope it.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Made you hungry and hungry as the country or as
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: in the sensation. We know that other people, other nations
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: picked up on this concept of gastro diplomacy and soft
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: power or a lot of the countries that we named earlier,
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: they saw the success of Thailand and then they started
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: instituting similar programs.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: There's like a whole laundry list, oh for sure, Korea, Taiwan,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: several Nordic nations have given it their best shot, to
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: varying degrees of success.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Why is Scander David?
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: I just don't know that it's really hit, That's all
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: I'm saying. It hasn't really hit the way Thai or Japanese,
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: you know, or even Peruvian we do. We are starting
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: to see, I'm not saying starting to see like it
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: hasn't been, you know, a thing for for some time.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: But there are a lot more Peruvian restaurants, Like there's
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: one at the damn airport here in Atlanta.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Peruvian food is great. We
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: also see Israel getting into the game. This is a
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: perfect way to communicate with people past diplomatic red tape,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: and with that before we Uh, before we go all
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: fanboy over the regional differences between cuisines of Thailand, we
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: want to hear from you. Tell us your favorite foods
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: to no On and wherever you find yourself in this
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: wide world. We'd love to hear what you think is
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: the top notch cuisine of your neck of the global woods.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: And what spice level do you enjoy your typhoon as?
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Is it mild, medium hot or tie hot right right?
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Or long for long spicy which is not spicy. It's mild.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Long means foreigner. You know who doesn't like spicy food?
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Who is the Germans? Oh? And me? And that's the condition.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: But also, yeah, it's a bolid thing.
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: And I've never been to eat spicy food. I was
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: at a my friend's party birthday party a couple of
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: years ago, and I was eating some mild wings. If
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: my friend Rob looked at me, goes, are you ok? Max,
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I want to eat anything with spice, and
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: it just kills me. I'm like, with faces on, you
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: get the sweats, you get all blushy, and it's like
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: the weakest stuff possible too. It's so pathetic.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, famous, the German people are not acclimated to spicy.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: Foods, another reason for us to join Noel in his
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: adventures over in Germany. A big, big thanks to our
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: super producer, mister Max mild Williams.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: Indeed, huge thanks to you, Ben for this incredible research,
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: and also to Jonathan Strickland, the diabolical quizter that he is.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: Where do you think he is on spicy food?
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: I think he doesn't? He also have a condition.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: He does, he is deathly allergic to shellfish.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: That's it. Don't already stands on spicy food. Can't really
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: picture him doing a hot ones though.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Let's just prank him. We'll text him after this episode. Well,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: let's put it in a work email and just not
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: explained the context and ask him where he's at with
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: spicy food. Absolutely and big thanks to our composer Alex Williams.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: Big thanks to Eve's Jeff Christopher hasiotis here in spirit
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: and who else?
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: No oh Man, all the hits, Rachel Big Spinach Lands,
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: the Red Dudes over at Ridiculous Crime. Gosh, who else
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: we got? Oh a j Mohamas Jacobs Huzzler.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Love that guy and we love you folks. Thank you
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: so much for tuning in We've got a run of
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: more fascinating sports episodes, as well as a long awaited
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: food episode. We're not gonna spoil just yet, but scatter,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: cover and smother yourselves.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: That came out weird.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: If you know, you know, We'll see you next time. Books.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.