Latest / The You Project / #1742 Play Therapy vs. Medication - Dr. Sam Casey

Transcript

#1742 Play Therapy vs. Medication - Dr. Sam Casey · The You Project

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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's Craig Anthony Harp. It's you project,
0:02
Speaker 1: It's doctor Sam Casey. What's your middle name? Sam? I
0:05
Speaker 1: have this bad habit. What is it? Sherry Sherry, Doctor
0:09
Speaker 1: Sam Sherry Casey, Craig Anthony Harper, Sam Sherry Casey. Hi, Doc,
0:15
Speaker 1: How it's Thursday afternoon? Well, it's Thursday evening here in
0:19
Speaker 1: the Eastern States. It's afternoon where you are? How you?
0:23
Speaker 1: How's your week been so far? We're sliding towards the
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Speaker 1: big fat red feller in the suit and the reindeer.
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Speaker 1: It's only six days away.
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Speaker 2: Six days away, and I have like a box of
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Speaker 2: presents that have arrived from my kids and I haven't
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Speaker 2: wrapped yet. So that's this weekend's plan is to wrap
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Speaker 2: all the present. So yeah, just.
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Speaker 1: For my audience who has not met you yet, because
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Speaker 1: you've only been here once. So this is your this
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Speaker 1: is your follow up appearance. Just tell my listeners just
0:56
Speaker 1: a quick revisit of who you are, what you do,
0:59
Speaker 1: your job, your PhD, and just a quick snapshot of
1:02
Speaker 1: you so they understand who they're listening to.
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Speaker 2: Yep. Great, Super hard to put into a sentence, right
1:08
Speaker 2: because it's much faceted, but.
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Speaker 1: I'm make stuff.
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Speaker 2: I'm a therapist wait as children families. For over nineteen years,
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Speaker 2: I've created the play Prescription Methods, so wanting to teach
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Speaker 2: parents and professionals how to use therapeutic play to solve
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Speaker 2: common childhood issues and parenting stuff. And my PhD was
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Speaker 2: in play therapy and psychology, so I'm really passionate about
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Speaker 2: all things like therapy and psychology. And yeah, that's me
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Speaker 2: in a nutshell.
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Speaker 1: Has it been Has it been really well received by
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Speaker 1: people who are in the field who are kind of
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Speaker 1: not exactly do what you do but kind of adjacent,
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Speaker 1: you know, working with kids therapy, like helping kids with
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Speaker 1: mental health issues and socially shoes, And how is it
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Speaker 1: received by other people who don't do what you do
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Speaker 1: but are in the space.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, good question. I feel like, you know, when I
2:10
Speaker 2: was doing my PhD, right, I was calling out a
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Speaker 2: lot of like therapists fives and their own I guess
2:19
Speaker 2: stuff and how that comes into therapy. And it was
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Speaker 2: obviously really controversial thing. And you know, one of my examiners,
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Speaker 2: I think I mentioned this on my previous episode, but
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Speaker 2: it was much of the top five percent, and she
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Speaker 2: said you call out like the elephant in the room,
2:31
Speaker 2: the stuff that no one wants to talk about. And
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Speaker 2: I feel like that's kind of been my experience since
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Speaker 2: doing my PhD in the industry, where a lot of
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Speaker 2: the therapists, you know, do say that to me, I'm
2:41
Speaker 2: not kind of talking about generic stuff, and I don't
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Speaker 2: sound like other therapists. I'm talking about things that people
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Speaker 2: feel really uncomfortable to talk about. But it's important stuff.
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Speaker 2: So I definitely feel like there is good, good stuff,
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Speaker 2: and I also think it probably really does trigger people too,
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Speaker 2: So yeah, it's either gonna love it.
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Speaker 1: Or hate It's the age change generally of the kids
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Speaker 1: that you work.
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Speaker 2: With, so play therapy is really from three to twelve.
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Speaker 2: But you know, my shift has really been on the
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Speaker 2: parents with these age kids, because ultimately that's what's going
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Speaker 2: to make the most sustainable changes is when you give
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Speaker 2: parents the insight into understanding their child more and being
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Speaker 2: able to use all these strategies that I would use
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Speaker 2: in the playroom in the therapy room at home.
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Speaker 1: H What's interesting about when you think about helping kid
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Speaker 1: like therapy, right, So there's there's a therapeutic intent that
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Speaker 1: is to help the kid in some way. What are
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Speaker 1: I've got another point I want to make, but before
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Speaker 1: I get to that, what are some of the mental
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Speaker 1: health or behavioral or sociological issues that you deal with? Like,
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Speaker 1: what are some of the typical problems. I don't know
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Speaker 1: if that's the right word, but let's just go with that.
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Speaker 1: Some issues that you deal with.
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Speaker 2: I think the main ones really are anxiety, so whether
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Speaker 2: it's separation anxiety, or anxiety at school, which can come
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Speaker 2: off as like perfectionism, or even kids not even wanting
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Speaker 2: to try because they're so worried about getting it wrong,
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Speaker 2: you know, school refusal, anger, which is a big one,
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Speaker 2: especially for young boys. Self esteem issues. So really I
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Speaker 2: feel like I categorize them in the internalizing presentations and
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Speaker 2: the externalizing. So externalizing is the stuff that we see
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Speaker 2: that it's coming out to, the aggression, the anger, you know,
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Speaker 2: behavioral stuff. DeFi it all of that outwardly, you know,
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Speaker 2: what parents would see as disruptive behaviors. But then the
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Speaker 2: internalizing stuff is the anxiety. It's the stuff that's really
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Speaker 2: happening on the inside that really feels like it's shoved down.
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Speaker 2: And then you know, children will have an outbased and
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Speaker 2: parents like where did that come from? Like, they're not
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Speaker 2: normally like this, but it's obviously been bubbling away. So
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Speaker 2: that's the anxiety stuff. Yeah, So I would say that
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Speaker 2: that's the most common presentations.
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Speaker 1: And so I guess some of that outward stuff that
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Speaker 1: you see is almost the byproduct of the problem, not
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Speaker 1: really the problem itself.
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Speaker 2: It's like definitely the underlying.
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Speaker 1: Stuff, which is the cattle like, this is the issue.
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Speaker 1: It's like, but now what you're seeing is little Johnny
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Speaker 1: acting out, But you need to figure out what's underneath
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Speaker 1: that to stop the acting out or to address that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I try and explain that to parents when
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Speaker 2: they're talking about say little Johnny, and they're like, all
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Speaker 2: he does is head other people and he's you know,
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Speaker 2: really like mean to everyone. And I'm like, so where
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Speaker 2: that starts is Johnny being mean to himself, Like he's
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Speaker 2: heading on the inside. And often there's that kind of
5:33
Speaker 2: critical self talk that's actually going in first. You know
5:36
Speaker 2: that saying hurt people hurt people. So we really want
5:39
Speaker 2: to get to the underlying pain and to be able
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Speaker 2: to empathize with that and to connect children with that.
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Speaker 2: And a lot of the time, especially boys, they have
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Speaker 2: some really critical self talk, like no one wants me around,
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Speaker 2: I'm always doing bad things, no one likes me, you know,
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Speaker 2: just really like really really struggling with that shame and
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Speaker 2: being able to come back from you know, when they
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Speaker 2: do that doesn't feel good.
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Speaker 1: Why do you think that's more boys? You say a
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Speaker 1: lot of boys. What is that about?
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Speaker 2: I think? And this definitely, you know, is obviously prevalent
6:12
Speaker 2: in our society for men. But you know, parents, you know,
6:15
Speaker 2: there's obviously there's probably like biological reasons here too, but
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Speaker 2: I think if we just talk about the sociological reasons,
6:24
Speaker 2: the expectations for boys and girls are very different. So
6:27
Speaker 2: parents parents their children differently. So when there's girls, there
6:31
Speaker 2: is a lot more talk around feelings and you know, understanding,
6:35
Speaker 2: you know, when girls are struggling or they're upset. But
6:37
Speaker 2: for boys, it's like you'll be right, You're okay, like
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Speaker 2: tough en up. So there is definitely those differences in parenting,
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Speaker 2: and I think this is why boys really struggle with
6:46
Speaker 2: being able to talk about their feelings. And I counsel
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Speaker 2: a lot of men too, and yeah, that's something that
6:51
Speaker 2: they also talk a lot about. You know, girls often
6:54
Speaker 2: have friends where they can cry to and you know,
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Speaker 2: and have their feelings validated, and men don't have anyone
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Speaker 2: that they can do that too, and when they do
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Speaker 2: try and reach out, they kind of shut down, like
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Speaker 2: you'll be.
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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I think it's I mean, I hope it's
7:07
Speaker 1: getting better. We're definitely talking about that more. But yeah,
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Speaker 1: And it's interesting because I don't think anybody's setting out
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Speaker 1: to fuck up their kids, right, but the reality is that,
7:20
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I've written this post on my Instagram,
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Speaker 1: my current but it's something like, when I was young,
7:29
Speaker 1: I thought that grown ups had their shit together, they
7:32
Speaker 1: understood everything, they knew everything, Da da da dada. They
7:34
Speaker 1: basically had it all together. And then the second part
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Speaker 1: is my hypothesis has since been amended, right. And it's
7:42
Speaker 1: funny because when you're little, well, when I was little,
7:45
Speaker 1: I'd look up to my mum and dad like they
7:46
Speaker 1: were perfect. They had all their shit together, they knew everything.
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Speaker 1: Dad was the smartest guy, Mum was the best mum,
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Speaker 1: every you know, whatever. And then you grow up and
7:55
Speaker 1: you see, you know, the curtain gets pulled back a
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Speaker 1: little bit and you go, oh, no, they're just they're
8:00
Speaker 1: fucked up as well, Like it's not like everyone's got
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Speaker 1: fucking issues. Mum and dad are just as fucked up
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Speaker 1: as their kids, if not more fucked up. So you've
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Speaker 1: kind of got you know, sometimes not all parents, of course,
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Speaker 1: but you've got this person who's perhaps themselves, you know,
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Speaker 1: mentally and or emotionally struggling, which is part of the
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Speaker 1: human experience, and they can't even really help themselves sometimes
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Speaker 1: because understandably there's stuff going on. And then so it's
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Speaker 1: very hard to be you know, Superman or super Dad
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Speaker 1: when you're trying to fix yourself in inverted commas.
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Speaker 2: Definitely, And I think this is actually a good thing
8:42
Speaker 2: because you know, so I've got a post on my
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Speaker 2: Instagram and it's like the Candy Hearts, and if you've
8:46
Speaker 2: seen that by Tommy Siegel, I think it is. And
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Speaker 2: it's like one like the mom candy Heart's like I
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Speaker 2: will not mess up my child, and the other one
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Speaker 2: that other parents like in the same way my parents
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Speaker 2: mess me up, and then the little child one. It's
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Speaker 2: like a whole new kind of fucked up. And I
8:59
Speaker 2: think that that really relates to the reality, which is
9:02
Speaker 2: all children have childhood conditioning. Like like you said, we're
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Speaker 2: all fucked up. You know, this is what's going to happen, like,
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Speaker 2: this is the human conditioning. But what's I think what's
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Speaker 2: really good to know is that it's actually good that
9:14
Speaker 2: children see us as human because what it does, So
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Speaker 2: what happens in the previous generation, what's happened is that
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Speaker 2: children have grown up with parents who try and be
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Speaker 2: robotic and pretend to be perfect, right because they think
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Speaker 2: that they're actually protecting their kids. So children grow up
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Speaker 2: and now they're adults and they're like, no, Mum was perfect.
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Speaker 2: Dad was okay, it must have been me. It's because
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Speaker 2: I was too much. It was because I was too sensitive,
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Speaker 2: it was because I was too annoying, versus a child
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Speaker 2: that grows up where they're like, no, Dad really struggled
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Speaker 2: with anger, and Mum, you know, was stressed. And when
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Speaker 2: they actually have parents who admit to their own humanness,
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Speaker 2: I guess in their own limitations, they're able to separate
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Speaker 2: that and so then they realize, Okay, that's their stuff,
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Speaker 2: what's mine?
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Speaker 1: Yep?
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Speaker 2: And I think that's what we really need to understand
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Speaker 2: more of, and in fact, we need to stop trying
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Speaker 2: to be perfect in front of children, because they grow
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Speaker 2: up thinking it's them problem. They're not just having feelings
10:01
Speaker 2: because they saw their parents manage all the things with
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Speaker 2: zero reaction.
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Speaker 1: What about the idea dr Sam of you know, let's
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Speaker 1: say I'm a dad and I fuck up. You know,
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Speaker 1: nothing horrendous, but I do you know, it's not my
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Speaker 1: finest hour as a parent, and I apologize to my children.
10:22
Speaker 1: Is that a good idea? Parents apologizing to their children.
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Speaker 2: Oh, it's so good. That's a rupture and repair. So
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Speaker 2: every relationship has ruptures, and like I said, the previous
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Speaker 2: generation ignored that and denied that, like they just didn't
10:34
Speaker 2: talk about it right or they were like no, I'm fine,
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Speaker 2: and they're like body languages saying that they're not. And
10:39
Speaker 2: so when we when we repair a rupture, we're first
10:42
Speaker 2: acknowledging that there is a rupture. So children actually go,
10:44
Speaker 2: I'm sensing this right, you know, like there was something
10:48
Speaker 2: here that's disconnected us. And then a parent's owning their stuff.
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Speaker 2: They're like it wasn't you know you like this is
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Speaker 2: my stuff. I was stressed or I was this and
10:56
Speaker 2: then it's like, well, what do we need to do
10:57
Speaker 2: to reconnect? And that's amazing. It's actually showing children that
11:00
Speaker 2: there is a way to come back from when we,
11:03
Speaker 2: you know, have moments like that where we regret what
11:05
Speaker 2: we've done, we've said things we don't mean, and it
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Speaker 2: gives them a bit of a blueprint, you know, that
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Speaker 2: they can do that too, and then they won't going
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Speaker 2: to the spiral of shame.
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Speaker 1: That's so good, so smart. I mean, it's kind of obvious,
11:16
Speaker 1: but we don't talk about it that much, like, yeah,
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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I'm not hanging around observing
11:20
Speaker 1: parents doing a whole lot of parenting too much. But
11:22
Speaker 1: you see a lot of it anecdotally. I mean every
11:25
Speaker 1: morning I'm in the cafe doing work and drinking coffee,
11:28
Speaker 1: and I get to the cafe early, and I see
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Speaker 1: just lots of mums and dads and kids. And I'm
11:33
Speaker 1: not judging, but you just it's like, oh, you know,
11:36
Speaker 1: I live on a main street as well, and I
11:39
Speaker 1: just got back from a walk now just a little.
11:41
Speaker 1: I just walked to one end and the other because
11:42
Speaker 1: it's undercover and it's super hot here. But yeah, I'm
11:46
Speaker 1: constantly seeing parents doing parenting and you know, some of
11:50
Speaker 1: it's brilliant, some of it's, you know, maybe not so brilliant.
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Speaker 1: But I think and I'm not an expert at anything,
11:56
Speaker 1: but I'm definitely not at parenting. But I wonder if
11:58
Speaker 1: I was a parent, if I would have the self
12:01
Speaker 1: awareness and courage and humility to go, hey, this just happened.
12:05
Speaker 1: That was all me. That's my fault, and you didn't
12:08
Speaker 1: do anything that was one hundred percent of me. So
12:11
Speaker 1: I'm sorry and moving forward, I'm going to do my
12:13
Speaker 1: very best not to do that again. Are you okay?
12:16
Speaker 1: Like that seems to me like a good idea.
12:19
Speaker 2: Definitely because they feel like it. Like I said, it
12:22
Speaker 2: really models to them that you're taking own a ship firstly,
12:25
Speaker 2: but also that you've noticed that there is a disconnect
12:27
Speaker 2: and you're kind of making amends. But then I think
12:30
Speaker 2: it's that's the immediate thing right where we're repairing. But
12:32
Speaker 2: I think also taking responsibility. It looks like this is
12:35
Speaker 2: a recurring thing for me, I'm stressed. What do I
12:37
Speaker 2: need to do to take that stress off in my
12:39
Speaker 2: life as a parent? Right So, being able to look
12:41
Speaker 2: at the patterns of going this is like what do
12:44
Speaker 2: I need? And I think a lot of parents don't
12:46
Speaker 2: do that. They just feel like they need to keep
12:47
Speaker 2: sacrificing their needs and go, go, go, And that's where
12:50
Speaker 2: that shame comes. And so when they have those moments,
12:52
Speaker 2: they're just like, I should know better. I need to
12:55
Speaker 2: go to a parenting class. No, you don't. You actually
12:57
Speaker 2: need to have space to get your needs met, because
13:00
Speaker 2: really take off the loan. A lot of the time
13:01
Speaker 2: parents know what they need to do. It's just they're overloaded,
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Speaker 2: they're overwhelmed, they're tired, they're hungry.
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Speaker 1: Did you see that that research that came out of
13:12
Speaker 1: unis A last year? It was about this time. I've
13:14
Speaker 1: spoken about this a few times. I apologize, but it's
13:16
Speaker 1: relevant to this conversation where they compared exercise as a
13:23
Speaker 1: treatment for anxiety with it was either anxiety or depressional.
13:29
Speaker 1: Both might have been both, but they used exercise as
13:33
Speaker 1: a treatment protocol compared with medication. And of course, you
13:39
Speaker 1: know what I'm going to say, So the exercise, the
13:42
Speaker 1: exercise outperformed, you know, the medication. And I'm thinking about,
13:47
Speaker 1: you know, like with children, how many children are medicated
13:50
Speaker 1: now for fucking everything? Right, I'm wondering, you know, So
13:55
Speaker 1: you said the core of a lot of what you
13:57
Speaker 1: deal with with kids is anxiety, which manifests in a
14:00
Speaker 1: range of ways and all the first cousins of anxiety.
14:03
Speaker 1: I guess that if you know, so what a medication
14:09
Speaker 1: does changes you know, brain chemistry, right, what does play
14:14
Speaker 1: do changes brain chemistry? Like it's physiologically altering the child
14:24
Speaker 1: without the potential side effects of a drug.
14:29
Speaker 2: Oh exactly. And I think even when you were saying
14:31
Speaker 2: actso plays that because it brings us into the present
14:34
Speaker 2: moment and like you said, it's rewiring our brain. But
14:36
Speaker 2: also exercise, and I think that that's a huge tool
14:39
Speaker 2: for parents that we just don't talk about enough, especially
14:43
Speaker 2: for parents. I mean, whether you've got anxiety or not,
14:45
Speaker 2: becoming a parent is very anxiety provoking. You're so worried
14:48
Speaker 2: about messing up your child. But if you didn't have anxiety,
14:50
Speaker 2: you know, you come away with having some anxiety about
14:53
Speaker 2: how you are showing up as a parent. So I
14:54
Speaker 2: think exercise is such an important way as stress relief.
14:58
Speaker 2: But also, like you said, it performs better than anti
15:01
Speaker 2: depresidants and anti anxiety medication. It's just not I don't
15:04
Speaker 2: think we talk about that as much as we should.
15:07
Speaker 1: I would imagine also that like play with kids that
15:10
Speaker 1: requires them to focus on something, it means now they're
15:15
Speaker 1: not focusing on something negative, or now they're not distracted
15:19
Speaker 1: with something negative. Like this requires your attention, you know.
15:23
Speaker 1: It's like there's this old kind of kind of what
15:29
Speaker 1: is it. It's like a puzzle. It's like, so, Sam,
15:31
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you a million dollars if you
15:33
Speaker 1: don't think about the number seven for the next thirty seconds, right, Yeah,
15:37
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh fuck, I don't think. Oh I
15:39
Speaker 1: just thought. I don't think about them. I just thought
15:41
Speaker 1: about it. Right, And so the answer, the answer to
15:44
Speaker 1: that puzzle is not to try to think about to
15:49
Speaker 1: to not try to think about the number seven. It's
15:51
Speaker 1: to think about a cheeseburger, Like you just focus on
15:55
Speaker 1: something different rather than try to not focus on a thing.
15:59
Speaker 1: And so, yes, you know, when I know when I'm
16:02
Speaker 1: feeling if which is not often, but if I'm sitting
16:05
Speaker 1: there and I start to feel a bit I start
16:07
Speaker 1: to go down an emotional end or psychological rabbit hole
16:10
Speaker 1: that's not positive, I'm like, ah fuck. If I get
16:13
Speaker 1: up and I go and do something like that requires
16:17
Speaker 1: my energy and my attention and my focus and my
16:20
Speaker 1: brain to be drawn to a particular task or whatever.
16:24
Speaker 1: Now I'm out of that thing. Like now I'm moving
16:28
Speaker 1: my body. I still haven't necessarily solved a problem, but
16:32
Speaker 1: I've just stopped ruminating by giving my attention to something healthier.
16:39
Speaker 2: Yes, And this is why I think play is such
16:40
Speaker 2: a good talk for parents. And you know, we talked
16:42
Speaker 2: about that repair. You know, for parents, they spend a
16:45
Speaker 2: lot of time in their mind in the past, so
16:47
Speaker 2: ruminating over past mistakes, how they handle things, how they
16:49
Speaker 2: wish they could have done it better, or in the future,
16:52
Speaker 2: which is all the worries of how maybe they've messed
16:54
Speaker 2: up their child or all these things that could go wrong.
16:56
Speaker 2: And so when a child wants to play with you,
16:58
Speaker 2: that's an invitation to be in the present you are
17:01
Speaker 2: like and it's really hard to by the way. That's
17:03
Speaker 2: why a lot of parents are like I bought or
17:05
Speaker 2: you know, thinking about all the things that they need
17:06
Speaker 2: to do. But to actually be present with the child
17:09
Speaker 2: is really you being in that moment. And I think
17:11
Speaker 2: a lot of the times we think of mindfulness as
17:14
Speaker 2: just quiet and calmness and yoga. No, mindfulness is also
17:18
Speaker 2: not running yourself down, not judging yourself, not thinking of
17:21
Speaker 2: West Kate scenarios, and actually being able to enjoy to
17:24
Speaker 2: be present, enjoy that moment for what it is, and
17:27
Speaker 2: be fully there. And I think that's why I play.
17:30
Speaker 2: It can be really triggering for parents, but I think
17:32
Speaker 2: it also can be really healing.
17:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to circle back a little bit
17:37
Speaker 1: to what we were talking about the impact that we
17:40
Speaker 1: have on our kids. You know, when we you know,
17:42
Speaker 1: we have our own shit, right, we have our own issues.
17:46
Speaker 1: I literally talk to people about issues and behavior and
17:48
Speaker 1: psychology for a living, and I've still got all my
17:51
Speaker 1: own bullshit, right, Like knowing stuff doesn't necessarily fix you,
17:55
Speaker 1: does it.
17:55
Speaker 2: It's like doesn't unfortunately, Yeah.
17:58
Speaker 1: Like do I still have self esteem issues a little bit?
18:00
Speaker 1: Do I still overthink a little bit? Do I still
18:04
Speaker 1: feel like a fraud a little bit? You know? It's like, so,
18:07
Speaker 1: you know, there's knowing something and then there's you know,
18:11
Speaker 1: benefiting from that or yeah, you know, being human for sure.
18:14
Speaker 1: But I'm thinking, you know, because we all have our
18:18
Speaker 1: own bullshit, which we'll call, you know, psychological or emotional
18:22
Speaker 1: or behavioral issues. And you know, let's say I've got
18:26
Speaker 1: a self limiting belief that's somewhat irrational, and I believe
18:32
Speaker 1: A B and C A B and c that's my
18:34
Speaker 1: irrational self limiting doesn't make sense, fucking up my own
18:38
Speaker 1: life belief. Now, if I'm always living in a version
18:43
Speaker 1: of that self limiting paradigm, and I'm talking about that,
18:47
Speaker 1: and I'm expressing that my kids are witnessing that, there's
18:50
Speaker 1: a fair chance that's going to become their reality as well,
18:54
Speaker 1: I'm going to pass my I guess my long winded
18:58
Speaker 1: point is, I'm going to pass us on my own
19:00
Speaker 1: bullshit to my kids unless I become more aware around them.
19:06
Speaker 2: Definitely, because if you think about it, if you're trying
19:07
Speaker 2: to be a perfect parent, then you will expect a
19:09
Speaker 2: perfect child. So you're right, and also knowing that we
19:13
Speaker 2: all have our own demons, but figuring out a way
19:16
Speaker 2: to continue to move towards your values and live in
19:20
Speaker 2: the way that you want amongst that, so I think, Oh,
19:22
Speaker 2: psychology professor gave me this just best analogy while I
19:25
Speaker 2: was doing my PhD and I was getting to the end,
19:28
Speaker 2: and I was saying, to have done all this work,
19:30
Speaker 2: like internally, like I've gone to therapy and you know,
19:32
Speaker 2: learn all the things, and yet I feel like it's
19:34
Speaker 2: getting harder the closer I get to this endpoint. And
19:36
Speaker 2: all is like you said, limiting beliefs came out and
19:39
Speaker 2: I'm getting in my own way and I'm like, what
19:41
Speaker 2: else can I do? I feel like I've overthought this
19:43
Speaker 2: so much. And she was like, well, we've all got
19:45
Speaker 2: our own demons, and that's what you go to therapy for.
19:46
Speaker 2: You you solve one demon, another one pops up, you
19:49
Speaker 2: solve one like this is just a never ending process.
19:51
Speaker 2: But what you kind of need to learn is learn
19:53
Speaker 2: how to coach yourself, lead yourself where you can get
19:55
Speaker 2: your demon, put it on the couch next to you
19:58
Speaker 2: and say you chill here. I'm going to go like,
20:00
Speaker 2: you're out of my way, chill here. I'm going to
20:02
Speaker 2: keep doing the thing. And that's a really important skill
20:05
Speaker 2: to have to show children where, yes, these things can
20:07
Speaker 2: be running our head and we can have these limiting beliefs,
20:09
Speaker 2: but how do we get out of our own way
20:11
Speaker 2: and how do we take responsibility for our lives? And
20:14
Speaker 2: the more that they see us do that which has
20:15
Speaker 2: been grave with our lives, taking courage right, talking about
20:18
Speaker 2: our values and moving towards that and really imperfect ways,
20:22
Speaker 2: the more they learn how to do that rather than
20:23
Speaker 2: going and to either all or nothing, and a lot
20:25
Speaker 2: of people do that. I need to solve all my
20:27
Speaker 2: adeemons before I can do the thing. I need to
20:29
Speaker 2: have perfect conditions before I can do the thing, all
20:32
Speaker 2: the reasons why they can't do it, versus going I
20:34
Speaker 2: just need to learn how to get out of my
20:35
Speaker 2: own way.
20:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes complete sense. I reckon, if I was
20:41
Speaker 1: a dad, there's every chance my kid or kids would
20:43
Speaker 1: have had food issues because I had food issues, you know,
20:47
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking I've thought about that. I'm like, wow,
20:51
Speaker 1: like imagine because I was more with the ib skid
20:53
Speaker 1: all this stuff, you know, fat kid eating issues and
20:56
Speaker 1: like eating lots of food I didn't need, then hating
20:59
Speaker 1: my body and hating myself, and then you know, becoming
21:02
Speaker 1: fucking a maniac about exercise. And you know, I wonder
21:06
Speaker 1: if and it took me, you know, I mean I
21:09
Speaker 1: owned multiple gym sam and I was still doing dumb
21:12
Speaker 1: shit to my own body like I was an ext
21:14
Speaker 1: size scientist. I'm working with elead athletes, i own multiple gyms.
21:19
Speaker 1: I'm like well known, I'm all this shit, and I'm
21:22
Speaker 1: still shoving food in my face when no one's looking
21:25
Speaker 1: at not these days, but for a long time, you know,
21:28
Speaker 1: maybe till I was in my mid thirties, when I
21:30
Speaker 1: was well and truly educated and informed, but still fucking
21:35
Speaker 1: out of control.
21:36
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, and it's a journey, right, And even
21:38
Speaker 2: if you and that's the problem I think with a
21:40
Speaker 2: lot of these things, because parents are so worried about
21:43
Speaker 2: transferring that onto their child, they will see it. So
21:46
Speaker 2: for example, you'd have a child, and then your child
21:49
Speaker 2: might I don't know, have a preference for one food,
21:51
Speaker 2: or you start to see some kind of concerning things
21:53
Speaker 2: and you will go, wow, I've done. It's projected, and
21:57
Speaker 2: you'll try and fix it and make it perfect. And
21:59
Speaker 2: so if the issues weren't already there, they will be
22:01
Speaker 2: there because that's a lens that you have, right, which
22:03
Speaker 2: is I'm causing this, And every time your child has
22:06
Speaker 2: anything to do with food, you're in a story is
22:10
Speaker 2: I've caused this, I'm projecting I haven't got my shit together,
22:13
Speaker 2: versus going in some ways, we actually all have issues,
22:17
Speaker 2: you know, with our body image in some ways, so
22:20
Speaker 2: your child's not going to be immune from that. You're
22:23
Speaker 2: still struggling with that. You can use that experience as
22:26
Speaker 2: empathy in going, I don't need to fix this for
22:28
Speaker 2: my child, but I can share my own journey. I
22:29
Speaker 2: can share that I also haven't figured it out and
22:31
Speaker 2: I'm still learning things, and I'm experimenting with what works
22:34
Speaker 2: for my body, and I fall off the track and
22:36
Speaker 2: then I get back on it. And that's a very compassionate,
22:40
Speaker 2: curious way to approach that versus that shame based, which
22:43
Speaker 2: is I need to get it right. I don't want
22:46
Speaker 2: to stuff up my child, so I think they should. Yeah,
22:49
Speaker 2: a lot of parents can really look at it in
22:50
Speaker 2: two different ways, which is, I don't want to project
22:52
Speaker 2: versus this can actually give me empathy. So if I've
22:55
Speaker 2: got anxiety, my child's got it, or if I've got body
22:57
Speaker 2: issues and my child's got it, I'm going to have
22:58
Speaker 2: this empathy knowing I know what it's like to have
23:01
Speaker 2: this struggle when it's not going to be just fixed
23:03
Speaker 2: straight away. So let's be more kind to ourselves while
23:06
Speaker 2: we do that work.
23:08
Speaker 1: Is it tough for you? I was thinking about this
23:11
Speaker 1: last time we spoke, but I forgot to ask, like,
23:16
Speaker 1: is it tough for you in twenty twenty four, twenty five,
23:20
Speaker 1: almost twenty five? When you've got to I mean, you've
23:26
Speaker 1: you've got to be politically correct. Of course, got to
23:28
Speaker 1: be enlightened and all of these things, which I'm on board.
23:32
Speaker 1: But boys and girls aren't the same biologically and sociologically.
23:38
Speaker 1: And we know that girls mature generally speaking, quicker, their
23:42
Speaker 1: brains develop develop quicker, you know, their prefrontal cortex develops
23:48
Speaker 1: or is kind of set earlier than men. And you
23:52
Speaker 1: know there are these how do you navigate and negotiate
23:57
Speaker 1: these differences without getting in trouble? Like because I feel
24:02
Speaker 1: like it's you know, you can't go, oh, boys are
24:04
Speaker 1: this and girls are that. I feel like that's a
24:06
Speaker 1: slippery slope.
24:08
Speaker 2: It very much is. And I think you know, everyone's
24:11
Speaker 2: like ready to like bounce me, like what you said.
24:13
Speaker 2: But I think to even go more than that, which
24:15
Speaker 2: is even within girls, everyone's got different experiences. Every girl's
24:18
Speaker 2: different and same with boys. So I think, you know,
24:21
Speaker 2: we need to just just know that every human is
24:24
Speaker 2: unique based on their experiences and what's going on for
24:26
Speaker 2: them and their contents and their environment. And I yeah,
24:29
Speaker 2: the more that we can use research to in foremost
24:32
Speaker 2: but actually really connects with the child in front of
24:34
Speaker 2: us and what they're showing us, I think that's probably
24:36
Speaker 2: the best way to go.
24:38
Speaker 1: But I mean, we know we're not going to see
24:40
Speaker 1: girls out on you know, preppies and grade ones out
24:43
Speaker 1: on the playground wrestling the girls just wrestling, and you know,
24:48
Speaker 1: maybe some but yeah, I guess I get I don't
24:51
Speaker 1: know what I'm asking. I just feel like that's I
24:54
Speaker 1: would struggle with that. I just think, oh, I'd get
24:56
Speaker 1: myself in trouble because I'd probably say something that people
24:59
Speaker 1: go oh oh so hard these days.
25:03
Speaker 2: And the thing is, really there's not anything you can
25:05
Speaker 2: say that won't get someone to have an opinion about it. Right,
25:07
Speaker 2: You say something and everyone's like, well, it could be
25:09
Speaker 2: the other way, Like there's always going to be different
25:12
Speaker 2: in opinions. So I think, yeah, it's so important to
25:14
Speaker 2: keep that in mind too.
25:15
Speaker 1: You spoke before about you having a therapist for a
25:19
Speaker 1: period of time and you're doing therapy. What does that feel?
25:24
Speaker 1: Free to answer and not answer this or open the
25:27
Speaker 1: door as wide or as narrow as you want, but
25:31
Speaker 1: can you share with us what were some of the
25:34
Speaker 1: stuff without revealing you know you deep as darkest, But like,
25:38
Speaker 1: I love it when somebody like you who is you know,
25:41
Speaker 1: a therapist who's got a doctorate, who's smart who works
25:44
Speaker 1: with people. You go, yeah, by the way, I'm a
25:46
Speaker 1: little bit fucked up myself, Like what is right? You know,
25:49
Speaker 1: I'm still dealing with shit because I'm human, you know, Yes.
25:53
Speaker 2: So I've had different experiences. So what fair brought me
25:56
Speaker 2: to therapy? Going to be honest, I had to do
25:59
Speaker 2: it to become a play therapist, so we have to
26:01
Speaker 2: undertake it was like fifty hours of personal therapy. So
26:04
Speaker 2: I was in therapy for one hour a week for
26:06
Speaker 2: about a year. And because it's not saying it's force,
26:09
Speaker 2: but because there was obviously a reason to it, I
26:11
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I'm going to really be open to
26:13
Speaker 2: this experience, do the inner child work that I need to.
26:16
Speaker 2: And that was great. But what was really good is
26:20
Speaker 2: when I came to therapy by myself, and that's when
26:23
Speaker 2: I became a mum, and I was like, let me,
26:26
Speaker 2: you know my as mums do. Let me try and
26:28
Speaker 2: deal with my own my own shit so that I
26:31
Speaker 2: don't projected onto my child. And this is what's coming
26:34
Speaker 2: up for me. And you know, it did take me
26:36
Speaker 2: a few goes to find the right kind of therapist
26:40
Speaker 2: and one that was really honest. You know, I didn't
26:43
Speaker 2: want a therapist that would just tell me what I
26:44
Speaker 2: want to hear. I'm like, please, like, call me out
26:46
Speaker 2: of my blind spots here, What am I missing? What
26:48
Speaker 2: am I So? I think it was really good to
26:52
Speaker 2: have that experience as I entered parenthood. But then I
26:55
Speaker 2: used it for a while when I felt like I
26:56
Speaker 2: needed it to talk things through or to again get
26:59
Speaker 2: out of my own head a bit and about stuff back.
27:02
Speaker 2: And what was awesome about it was I had a
27:05
Speaker 2: therapist that was really good at actually uncovering my again
27:09
Speaker 2: really connecting to the child, but uncovering my unmet needs
27:12
Speaker 2: you know as a child, or my experiences as a
27:14
Speaker 2: child and how that's impacting me as an adult. And
27:17
Speaker 2: so it gave me this deeper understanding of myself. But
27:20
Speaker 2: it also showed me where I needed to take more
27:22
Speaker 2: responsibility for my life. And I think that's really the
27:25
Speaker 2: key to it. I think we can come to therapy
27:27
Speaker 2: to maybe get validated or to try and talk about
27:30
Speaker 2: you know, what horrible situation you know other people are
27:32
Speaker 2: aware in and how stressful all the external stuff is.
27:35
Speaker 2: But if you come to therapy with this, I really
27:37
Speaker 2: want to understand more of myself, Like the good, the
27:39
Speaker 2: bad all the parts, and then where I can actually
27:43
Speaker 2: make changes. That's the key to it, and that's what
27:45
Speaker 2: I did. I think more so in the self initiated,
27:48
Speaker 2: you know, being a parent. Part of the therapy is
27:52
Speaker 2: when I was so committed in between the sessions to
27:54
Speaker 2: do the work and to come back with this is what,
27:57
Speaker 2: this is what, this is what I was trialing and
27:59
Speaker 2: then continue to work from there. And so I really
28:02
Speaker 2: do believe. Again, so people come to therapy and they
28:05
Speaker 2: think therapists have the answers. I didn't come to therapy
28:07
Speaker 2: like that. I came to therapy going I know that
28:09
Speaker 2: this is my life. I'm the expert in my life,
28:11
Speaker 2: and they're here to maybe be a mirror to show
28:13
Speaker 2: me things, to help me reflect onto things. But I
28:15
Speaker 2: have to do the work outside therapy or nothing's going
28:17
Speaker 2: to change.
28:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like therapists, personal trainers, exercise physiologists, life coaches.
28:31
Speaker 1: I don't really like putting them in that. But you know,
28:34
Speaker 1: there's a whole group of people that, not so much
28:37
Speaker 1: doctors because it's generally in and out for twelve minutes
28:39
Speaker 1: or something, but people who work with people one on
28:42
Speaker 1: one for an hour or forty five minutes on a
28:44
Speaker 1: regular basis. It's like, you know, there are great therapists
28:49
Speaker 1: and terrible ones. There are great trainers and terrible ones.
28:52
Speaker 1: There are great dietitians and terrible ones, and good bricklayers
28:56
Speaker 1: and bad ones. You know, it's like that. You know,
29:02
Speaker 1: my background is owning gyms right and PT centers specifically,
29:06
Speaker 1: and like what I what I would have thought going
29:11
Speaker 1: into that, which is like, well, the most qualified, the
29:15
Speaker 1: most knowledgeable, the most skilled, they will be the most successful,
29:21
Speaker 1: And it just was almost never the case. I'm like, oh, like,
29:25
Speaker 1: some of my trainers had the most basic quality. I
29:29
Speaker 1: mean literally I had everything from PhD qualified people down
29:33
Speaker 1: to certificate three and four right and everyone in between.
29:37
Speaker 1: But probably at least half my trainers were a fitness
29:41
Speaker 1: industry qualified kind of fundamental quals right three and four
29:45
Speaker 1: cert but without doubt the probably the best five trainers
29:51
Speaker 1: I had, and I could qualify best. But just in
29:54
Speaker 1: terms of all round performance, client retention didn't injure people.
29:59
Speaker 1: People made good progress, they got good results, they loved
30:02
Speaker 1: the experience, they said positive things. These particular trainers had
30:07
Speaker 1: very very little drop off. They were all just awesome humans,
30:13
Speaker 1: Like they were all just funny, good people, good personalities.
30:19
Speaker 1: They cared. I mean, it's so basic, right, And they
30:24
Speaker 1: were just gave a fuck about the people they worked with,
30:27
Speaker 1: and they were consistent and they were good. And you know,
30:30
Speaker 1: I've said this. I don't think I said this to you,
30:32
Speaker 1: but I've said this a bunch of times over the years.
30:34
Speaker 1: But in all the years that I worked as a
30:36
Speaker 1: trainer and as a gym owner and as a high
30:38
Speaker 1: performance coach with athletes and teams and all those things,
30:42
Speaker 1: in all those years, I got asked once what my
30:45
Speaker 1: qualification was? Once? Wow, like, what is your qualification? And
30:50
Speaker 1: it was only a lady who was She only wanted
30:53
Speaker 1: to know, not because she was checking up on me
30:55
Speaker 1: or doubting me, but she wanted to do what I did.
30:58
Speaker 1: She's like, you know, and so not that we shouldn't
31:01
Speaker 1: be qualified or knowledgeable or skilled. Of course, we're not
31:04
Speaker 1: saying that all those things are, you know, imperative. But
31:09
Speaker 1: like if you've got a pH d in psychology, but
31:12
Speaker 1: you sit down with people and they don't enjoy being
31:14
Speaker 1: around you, well good luck.
31:17
Speaker 2: Oh exactly if you're like judging them and you're like
31:19
Speaker 2: criticizing them in your mind and you know, you're you're
31:23
Speaker 2: you know, not really present with them, and you're assessing
31:25
Speaker 2: them in a way that doesn't align right with what
31:27
Speaker 2: they're actually saying and what they're trying to in how
31:29
Speaker 2: they're trying to connect with you. Then you're right, you're
31:31
Speaker 2: not gonna You're not going to be someone that they'll
31:33
Speaker 2: want to come back to. And I think it's a
31:35
Speaker 2: really good point of what you said, like just generally
31:38
Speaker 2: caring about their lives and wanting to support them, and
31:40
Speaker 2: you've even see that in your industry. I think it
31:42
Speaker 2: then just shows how relatable it is, right, Like.
31:46
Speaker 1: This is, this is so fundamental. It seems like, oh,
31:50
Speaker 1: that couldn't possibly work. I used to say too, And
31:54
Speaker 1: I would say to any trainer listening, any professional listening,
31:59
Speaker 1: especially you know, people to do what you and I do, right,
32:02
Speaker 1: which is like one on one stuff, like apart from
32:05
Speaker 1: all the other factors and variables. Do they want to
32:08
Speaker 1: come back? Like? Do they like especially when you're a
32:12
Speaker 1: trainer and you see someone three times a week? Right? Yeah?
32:16
Speaker 1: I trained one lady who definitely didn't need me to
32:18
Speaker 1: train her after the first year, but I trained her
32:20
Speaker 1: sixteen years, like sixteen years, three, four, five, days a week, right,
32:26
Speaker 1: And she didn't need me, but she just would. She
32:29
Speaker 1: could afford it. She was wealthy, so it wasn't an issue.
32:32
Speaker 1: She went, I know I could train by myself, but
32:34
Speaker 1: I don't want to. I just get better results. I
32:36
Speaker 1: enjoy it more. I'm more consistent for these reasons. And
32:41
Speaker 1: if you will train me I want, I'm like great.
32:43
Speaker 1: And you know I ask bosses Sam when I go
32:47
Speaker 1: and I do corporate stuff or I'm consulting, or I'm speaking,
32:49
Speaker 1: or I'm kind of problem solving or doing team building
32:52
Speaker 1: stuff or you know, cultural or communication stuff, I ask
32:56
Speaker 1: the boss him or her, whoever that is. I go,
33:00
Speaker 1: do your staff like being here? Is this a place
33:04
Speaker 1: that they want to come to and that they don't
33:07
Speaker 1: even think about this? I go, is this an environment
33:10
Speaker 1: and a culture that your people get out of bed
33:14
Speaker 1: and look forward to coming to this place? And if
33:17
Speaker 1: the answer to that is no, that's where you need
33:20
Speaker 1: to start.
33:21
Speaker 2: Definitely. That's such an important question that I think a
33:23
Speaker 2: lot of leaders would not ask. And I mean for you, though,
33:25
Speaker 2: do you think the reason why you've been so successful,
33:29
Speaker 2: especially in that industry, is because you've had your own
33:31
Speaker 2: personal journey with exercise?
33:34
Speaker 1: I think, yes, I think like I have hund percent.
33:39
Speaker 2: Yeah.
33:39
Speaker 1: And so when I talk about whatever obesity or body
33:43
Speaker 1: dysmorphia or fucking self loathing or I'm not talking from
33:47
Speaker 1: a research perspective. I'm talking about experientially. I go, I know,
33:52
Speaker 1: I know what it's like to hate how you look.
33:55
Speaker 1: I know what it's like to get on the scales
33:57
Speaker 1: and be depressed. I know what it's like to look
34:00
Speaker 1: in the mirror and feel sad. I know what it's
34:03
Speaker 1: like to be picked last for a team because you're fat.
34:06
Speaker 1: I know, I know, right, And there's no self pity
34:09
Speaker 1: in this. But that's my experience. And so you know,
34:13
Speaker 1: I have a soft soft spot for people who struggle
34:16
Speaker 1: with all of it, which is what.
34:17
Speaker 2: You see them, right, like you actually see them because
34:20
Speaker 2: imagine if you didn't have that, you could see how
34:23
Speaker 2: you could have a trainer, right that's never had that struggle.
34:25
Speaker 2: And they may again not intentionally, but be like, it's
34:28
Speaker 2: not that hard, like and it's and when they say
34:32
Speaker 2: it's different, because it fact way you've always had that,
34:34
Speaker 2: But knowing your struggles, you're like, no, this is what
34:36
Speaker 2: the way that you would kind of speak that out
34:39
Speaker 2: would be so different.
34:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just dawned on me as you were talking.
34:44
Speaker 1: It's like, I, this is going to sound bad, but
34:49
Speaker 1: it's like people that don't have great genetics that really
34:52
Speaker 1: struggle to be in shape that you know, it's like
34:55
Speaker 1: they're my people.
34:57
Speaker 2: It's like that is your audience.
35:00
Speaker 1: People right now. I've worked with lots of elite athletes,
35:04
Speaker 1: national international athletes, Olympians, all that, and I can work
35:07
Speaker 1: with them, and I'm quite a good conditioning coach and
35:10
Speaker 1: all of that, XI scientists, but I can do all that,
35:13
Speaker 1: but I kind of feel in that environment or I
35:18
Speaker 1: have a capacity to feel like I don't belong because
35:22
Speaker 1: I was not a good athlete. I was not gifted genetically.
35:25
Speaker 1: I didn't have great sporting talent. And even though I
35:28
Speaker 1: can do that job and I can be a good
35:30
Speaker 1: coach and I can help people get better in that
35:33
Speaker 1: environment as well, but it's funny when I'm back talking
35:36
Speaker 1: to someone who just struggles with self esteem and self
35:39
Speaker 1: worth and body image and not very great genetics, and
35:43
Speaker 1: you know, I'm like, yeah, I'm in my natural habitat.
35:45
Speaker 1: This is where I belong.
35:47
Speaker 2: You're like, you speak my language.
35:49
Speaker 1: I'm like, I get it. I get it. You know,
35:52
Speaker 1: I just I just want to give them a you know,
35:55
Speaker 1: if not a literal hugger, you know, a virtual hug.
36:00
Speaker 1: So so if we're like from a just back quickly
36:05
Speaker 1: to the parenting thing and the kids thing. It's like,
36:08
Speaker 1: is there this is a very broad question, But how
36:12
Speaker 1: do I know if I'm doing a good job? Like
36:14
Speaker 1: what's the data telling me? And it's you know, not
36:18
Speaker 1: to be preoccupied with that, but it's like, well, clearly,
36:21
Speaker 1: if I'm a parent, I want to be a good parent.
36:24
Speaker 1: If I'm a good parent, what's happening? How do I know?
36:27
Speaker 1: And I guess conversely, not if I'm a shit parent,
36:31
Speaker 1: but if I need to maybe work on stuff, you know, how.
36:36
Speaker 2: Do I know what you define is good?
36:40
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know, you don't. I mean, like, do
36:43
Speaker 1: we need to like do we need to think about
36:49
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't want to overthink shit because we
36:50
Speaker 1: don't want to complicate shit. But at the same time,
36:53
Speaker 1: want it or not, like it or not. You're shaping
36:57
Speaker 1: this human like this, you're programming and training this human.
37:04
Speaker 1: And you're training this little human when they are the
37:07
Speaker 1: most malleable and they are becoming a version of you,
37:12
Speaker 1: like it or not. Yeah, yeah, so how do I Yeah,
37:20
Speaker 1: this is hard.
37:21
Speaker 2: To spit though, be kids. You're right, you know, the
37:23
Speaker 2: parent in ch our relationship. I mean they say it's
37:25
Speaker 2: one of the the most influential obviously relationship, right, it's
37:28
Speaker 2: setting the foundations for all the other relationships. The attachment,
37:32
Speaker 2: it's so so important. But at the same time, it's
37:34
Speaker 2: not the only input in their lives. You know, children
37:37
Speaker 2: go to school, right, They're getting influenced by other people,
37:39
Speaker 2: other teachers, other kids. So I think when we define
37:44
Speaker 2: good parenting, what we have to really kind of get
37:47
Speaker 2: to what is our definition of good? Because if it's
37:49
Speaker 2: a good a good parenting is having a child that's
37:52
Speaker 2: happy all the time. Then when your child is sad,
37:54
Speaker 2: you're going to feel like you're failing. When your child
37:55
Speaker 2: is angry, you're gonna feel like you're failing. And so
37:57
Speaker 2: then you're not actually being present with them in what
38:00
Speaker 2: they need to be present with, which is actually being
38:02
Speaker 2: able to experience life fully. And so I think that yeah,
38:07
Speaker 2: really getting to what is good versus yeah, how do
38:11
Speaker 2: we I guess, focus on what we can which is
38:13
Speaker 2: our relationship with our child, and what is the relationship
38:15
Speaker 2: It's a connection it's the emotional connection. So I think
38:18
Speaker 2: really being able to go back and do their inner
38:20
Speaker 2: work so that you are emotionally connected to yourself and
38:23
Speaker 2: you're getting your emotional needs met and then going how
38:25
Speaker 2: am I showing up in this relationship with my child?
38:27
Speaker 2: And so research you know, I always thought it was
38:29
Speaker 2: like if you most of the time, if you're you know,
38:31
Speaker 2: responding to your child, great, then you're good. But research shows,
38:35
Speaker 2: especially with secure attachment. So they have the safe of
38:38
Speaker 2: Security training and in that training, evidence based program and
38:41
Speaker 2: they teach you that only three percent of the time
38:44
Speaker 2: if you're responding to your child's needs, and that is
38:46
Speaker 2: what you know can lead to a secure attachment. So
38:49
Speaker 2: I think it's yeah important when we talk about those
38:51
Speaker 2: emotional needs. It's feeling seen, head validated, accepted, and understood
38:55
Speaker 2: for who they are. And I think play provides this
38:57
Speaker 2: amazing space for that because it's got these conditions where
39:00
Speaker 2: we can create that therapeutic environment. But also they're not
39:04
Speaker 2: overly worrying about constantly are we doing the right thing
39:09
Speaker 2: and did we respond in the right way twenty four
39:10
Speaker 2: to seven, because that can actually cause other issues that
39:12
Speaker 2: can cause a child that's struggling with anxiety and perfectionism
39:15
Speaker 2: because everything has to be perfect. So I think moving
39:18
Speaker 2: away from good versus maybe living a meaningful life, how
39:22
Speaker 2: do we help children actually be really connected to themselves
39:24
Speaker 2: in the world. How do we help our children live
39:26
Speaker 2: out values? What are our values? So I think that's
39:29
Speaker 2: probably more of a focal point.
39:31
Speaker 1: Is to.
39:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, be more aligned and being able to actually live
39:36
Speaker 2: that out with our kids.
39:39
Speaker 1: So every morning, as I said to you before, I
39:41
Speaker 1: go and sit in this cafe and there's a dude
39:44
Speaker 1: who comes in. His name is James will I'll give
39:47
Speaker 1: a shout out to James. Used to play footy for
39:49
Speaker 1: sin Kilda. He was a gun. Anyway, it's got the
39:52
Speaker 1: most gorgeous little girl called Rosie who for some reason,
39:56
Speaker 1: Rosie has taken a shine to Uncle Harps. And one
40:01
Speaker 1: day he was just anyway, he was sitting to one side,
40:05
Speaker 1: and she just walked over to me and put up
40:07
Speaker 1: her arms and I went okay, So then she just
40:10
Speaker 1: sat with me. Anyway, Now every time she comes in,
40:13
Speaker 1: she sits like on my lap and I get my phone.
40:17
Speaker 1: This is probably bad, but she sits on my lap
40:20
Speaker 1: and so she's she's got her little arms on the table.
40:23
Speaker 1: I've got my arms on the table. I'll get my
40:24
Speaker 1: phone out and I will put on like a Bluey
40:30
Speaker 1: cartoon or a clip from Bluey. Right, I'm all over.
40:33
Speaker 2: It anyway, Louie.
40:35
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right. So the other day she comes in and
40:39
Speaker 1: she because she knows what she wants. She just wants
40:41
Speaker 1: to come and sit with me and fuck around on
40:45
Speaker 1: the phone. And she'll pick up the salt shaker and
40:48
Speaker 1: hand it to me, and then the pepper shaker and
40:50
Speaker 1: hand it to me, and then it's this whole thing.
40:53
Speaker 1: But I was, I was. I don't know how old
40:57
Speaker 1: she's I should know, but I feel like she's no
40:59
Speaker 1: more than eight months, so she's little, right, But she
41:03
Speaker 1: just she gets my phone and she just she knows
41:07
Speaker 1: how to use that phone. Yeah, she's like finding stuff
41:10
Speaker 1: and scrolling. And I mean she's not typing in things,
41:13
Speaker 1: of course, yes, but to an extent she can navigate
41:18
Speaker 1: her way around that phone, which and I mean, I
41:21
Speaker 1: don't want to have this. Oh, screens are killing our
41:24
Speaker 1: kids and all that, because it's been so talked about.
41:26
Speaker 1: But when you talk about play therapy, yeah, does that
41:30
Speaker 1: involve that kind of play? Does that involve kids playing
41:34
Speaker 1: computer games or is this not really in the context
41:38
Speaker 1: of what you do?
41:40
Speaker 2: So in traditional obviously play therapy, you know, we don't
41:42
Speaker 2: have that. But I think what I'm and what a
41:44
Speaker 2: lot of play therapist society to do, is to really
41:47
Speaker 2: get these skills to be more applicable to this day
41:50
Speaker 2: and not just this day and age, but to other
41:52
Speaker 2: activities as well. So, yeah, there are principles that you
41:55
Speaker 2: can still use in the online world or in the
41:58
Speaker 2: in the gaming I mean, there's lots of therapist that
42:00
Speaker 2: have even combined like minecraft and therapy, you know, and
42:03
Speaker 2: kind of been really creative in the ways that they're
42:05
Speaker 2: joining the technology stuff into it. So I think, yes,
42:10
Speaker 2: if we can be more flexible and adaptable, then we
42:13
Speaker 2: can still use the therapeutic principles in the online space,
42:17
Speaker 2: and if anything, it opens up so much more. Doraws too.
42:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, my last one before we let you go,
42:25
Speaker 1: And I know you're young, you're young, you're a puppet,
42:29
Speaker 1: but do you think there's more anxiety in kids? You know,
42:34
Speaker 1: let's just say your group three. Did you say three
42:37
Speaker 1: to twelve? Is your group two to twelve?
42:38
Speaker 2: Ye?
42:38
Speaker 1: Do you think there's more anxiety in that group? Now?
42:41
Speaker 1: Then do you think there's more anxiety in that group
42:43
Speaker 1: now than say twenty years ago when you were a kid,
42:47
Speaker 1: or do you think we just have far more awareness about,
42:51
Speaker 1: you know, the anxiety that is there.
42:54
Speaker 2: Maybe a bit of both, really, I mean, I think
42:56
Speaker 2: that there is a lot more anxiety and even for
42:59
Speaker 2: parents as well kids, there's so much more pressure, like
43:01
Speaker 2: to be all the things to their child. And you
43:03
Speaker 2: know that that I'm influencing, you know, influencing this child.
43:07
Speaker 2: I'm raising a child. This is like a huge responsibility
43:10
Speaker 2: can get them to be very anxious. And like I said,
43:12
Speaker 2: a child, I mean, a parent trying to be perfect
43:14
Speaker 2: is going to raise a child that's trying to be perfect.
43:15
Speaker 2: So there's one part to it. But yeah, you're also right,
43:18
Speaker 2: a lot of things that parents won't even know in
43:20
Speaker 2: the previous generation was anxiety is now talked about. We're
43:23
Speaker 2: putting names to it, we're talking about those feelings in
43:26
Speaker 2: our bodies that you know are anxiety driven. We're talking
43:29
Speaker 2: about all these other things to do with anxiety. So yeah,
43:33
Speaker 2: I think it's a bit of both.
43:34
Speaker 1: I'd say, yeah, yeah, I also I wonder what you know,
43:41
Speaker 1: it's like we're talking about this to a little bit
43:44
Speaker 1: it's a bit of a dead horse, but I just
43:46
Speaker 1: like your take on it. I mean, like, we want
43:49
Speaker 1: our kids to be able to adapt and be flexible
43:51
Speaker 1: and to be able to socialize in different contexts, and
43:55
Speaker 1: we want them to be you know, within reason. We
43:58
Speaker 1: want them to be resilient and all of those things,
44:01
Speaker 1: but at the same time, we want to protect them
44:03
Speaker 1: from everything like this exactly, this dichotomy. It's like, I
44:09
Speaker 1: want my kids to be strong, but I don't ever
44:11
Speaker 1: want them to do anything hard.
44:13
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, and yeah, I want them to predict them
44:16
Speaker 2: from all the things, but then I want them to
44:18
Speaker 2: build like he said, this resilience. But also if you
44:21
Speaker 2: really look at a lot of parents' descriptions of what
44:23
Speaker 2: they want their child to be, it's like, well, how
44:25
Speaker 2: far away away from this idea idlows version of a
44:28
Speaker 2: human because you'll see you'll see parents put their child
44:31
Speaker 2: in three four, five extra reproductivities, but they don't have
44:34
Speaker 2: a hobby themselves. And so it's so easy for us
44:37
Speaker 2: as adults to sit on the sidelines and be like
44:39
Speaker 2: you go do this and like, you know, be this
44:41
Speaker 2: like perfectly well balanced human, while we're like not even
44:45
Speaker 2: on that path or not even seeing the benefit of that.
44:48
Speaker 2: So I think, yeah, we're having really unrealistic expectations of
44:52
Speaker 2: what the human can be like because it is our
44:54
Speaker 2: child and we're like, I want all the best things
44:56
Speaker 2: for them. But then yeah, that's a lot of pressure,
44:59
Speaker 2: a lot of press if they're not on the journey to.
45:02
Speaker 1: What's on the what's in the agenda for Christmas? For
45:06
Speaker 1: the good doc and the kids.
45:08
Speaker 2: Wow, I live in a small town, so we'll be
45:11
Speaker 2: having you know, a nice summers the Christmas, you know,
45:14
Speaker 2: with in the pool and lots of food. Of course,
45:17
Speaker 2: that would be really great.
45:19
Speaker 1: What about you did you did you say, Margaret River? No?
45:25
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's north That's wow.
45:29
Speaker 2: Ap Pilbra Christmas for me this year.
45:32
Speaker 1: Get that hot up there. I'm just going to see
45:34
Speaker 1: my folks. My folks, understandably, are pretty old and you
45:40
Speaker 1: get to a point where you don't know how many
45:43
Speaker 1: Christmas is you're going to have left with those people,
45:45
Speaker 1: you know, so God bless their little socks. So I'm
45:49
Speaker 1: heading up to see Ron and Mary and yeah, we'll
45:53
Speaker 1: see how that goes. So it's you know, it won't
45:56
Speaker 1: be any it won't be anything exciting, but it's nice
46:00
Speaker 1: I just like spending time with them. Like it's funny
46:02
Speaker 1: the older that I become and the older of course
46:06
Speaker 1: that they become. You know, you think a little bit
46:08
Speaker 1: like that. You think, I wonder how many they live
46:10
Speaker 1: two hours away from me. I wonder how many more
46:13
Speaker 1: times I'll drive up this road. You know, I don't
46:15
Speaker 1: want to have any.
46:16
Speaker 2: More Christmases that you have with them and all of that.
46:18
Speaker 1: So yeah, Hey, if people want to find you, follow you,
46:23
Speaker 1: connect with you, see you on social media, or shoot
46:27
Speaker 1: you an email or something like that, how does that happen?
46:31
Speaker 2: So my Instagram is just my name Dr Sam Casey,
46:34
Speaker 2: or they can find me on my website which is
46:37
Speaker 2: www dot dotor Samkacy dot com probably my two main ones.
46:41
Speaker 2: So yeah, they'll be able to contact me.
46:42
Speaker 1: And say that Sam your I appreciate you. Thank you
46:46
Speaker 1: for coming on again. We'll say goodbye once we sign off.
46:50
Speaker 1: We'll do that off air, but for the moment, thanks
46:52
Speaker 1: for being on the new project again.
46:53
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me again.