Latest / This Week On ICE / No more fast-track ICE trainings, landlords weaponize ICE against tenants, and U.S. border migration developments

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No more fast-track ICE trainings, landlords weaponize ICE against tenants, and U.S. border migration developments · This Week On ICE

0:06
SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to This Week On ICE for May 7, 2026.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm Kelly Kimball.
0:11
SPEAKER_03: And I'm Ben Camacho.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I say this every week,
0:14
but really this week is really special because Ben and I are
0:17
recording and meeting
0:19
SPEAKER_01: for the very first time in the flesh here in Los Angeles.
0:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's happening, finally.
0:25
SPEAKER_03: I know.
0:26
SPEAKER_03: You know, I feel like we've been in communication for months already.
0:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
0:29
SPEAKER_03: From speaking at your class to a recording booth in LA.
0:31
SPEAKER_03: Literally.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: Like,
0:32
SPEAKER_01: we've known each other for several months,
0:34
SPEAKER_01: and I'm like,
0:34
SPEAKER_01: wow,
0:34
SPEAKER_01: like,
0:34
SPEAKER_01: I wonder how tall Ben is.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
0:36
SPEAKER_03: Not that tall, if anyone's wondering.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: Well,
0:39
what's hilarious about this is that when I tapped Matt to
0:43
co-host the show with me,
0:44
SPEAKER_01: I had known Matt for three years.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: And when I met him in person,
0:48
SPEAKER_01: it was fully like,
0:49
SPEAKER_01: holy shit,
0:50
SPEAKER_01: you are six foot five He's six foot five Anyway,
0:56
it's such a pleasure to record this with you in person And I'm
1:00
happy to be back in
1:01
LA after quite a long time I haven't been back here in over a
1:04
decade So thank you
1:06
and happy to be here Happy to see you and thank you so much to
1:09
Eddie Aguirre Yeah,
1:11
SPEAKER_01: thank you,
1:11
SPEAKER_01: Eddie,
1:12
SPEAKER_01: for letting us use your sound booth here
1:14
SPEAKER_03: Kelly, why don't you kick off the show for us?
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: So yesterday,
1:19
Politico broke the news that the Department of Homeland
1:22
Security is axing its fast
1:24
SPEAKER_01: track training process for new ICE agents.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: So this comes after a year defined by brutal,
1:29
SPEAKER_01: messy ICE crackdowns in major U.S.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: cities from Minneapolis and Chicago and L.A.
1:34
as well as a massive dip in approval ratings toward the Trump
1:37
administration across
1:39
SPEAKER_01: party lines.
1:40
So Ben is going to explain how popular resistance may have
1:43
played a part in this,
1:45
SPEAKER_01: what ICE training may look like moving forward,
1:47
SPEAKER_01: and how we may see all of this reflected in the streets of America.
1:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
1:52
SPEAKER_03: and next up in late April,
1:54
the New York-based publication Documented reported that New
1:57
York City landlords are
1:58
SPEAKER_03: allegedly using ICE threats to intimidate immigrant tenants.
2:02
SPEAKER_03: But this isn't the only instance of this.
2:04
SPEAKER_03: Kelly is going to dive into how across major cities in America,
2:08
SPEAKER_03: some landlords are weaponizing ICE against their tenants,
2:11
SPEAKER_03: and with some landlords even facing criminal charges for harassment.
2:15
She'll also look into the ways some cities are fighting back to
2:17
protect renters
2:18
SPEAKER_03: from having this happen to them.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: and after the break,
2:22
the ghost of our co-host Matt Kendrick brings us an exclusive
2:25
interview with
2:26
SPEAKER_01: Colleen Putzel-Kavanaugh of the Migration Policy Institute.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: Stick with us.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: So Ben,
2:37
SPEAKER_01: just yesterday,
2:38
political broke news that the Trump administration is no longer
2:41
going to expedite
2:42
the training process of the tens of thousands of ICE agents it
2:45
was once rushing to
2:46
SPEAKER_01: put out on the streets.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: So can you bring this into context for us?
2:51
SPEAKER_01: What's happening and why now?
2:53
Yeah,
2:53
so I think for this one,
2:55
we really have to kind of go back a year or about a year ago.
2:58
SPEAKER_03: You know,
2:59
SPEAKER_03: when Trump comes into office,
3:00
SPEAKER_03: or even just a couple months before that,
3:02
he's coming in saying we're going to essentially deport
3:05
everybody or deport all of
3:07
SPEAKER_03: the people that are here legally.
3:09
SPEAKER_03: As we know,
3:09
it was a brutal summer of raids that started here in Los
3:12
Angeles and continued
3:14
SPEAKER_03: throughout the country,
3:15
SPEAKER_03: right?
3:16
SPEAKER_03: And
3:16
SPEAKER_03: A lot of the agents that they were hiring last year were put into this,
3:20
I guess like a fast track training program to essentially rush
3:25
them out onto the
3:26
SPEAKER_03: field to meet these demands of Trump's agenda.
3:29
SPEAKER_03: And so we all know how long
3:31
last year ended with multiple summary executions of citizens
3:36
who were resisting
3:37
SPEAKER_03: against the ICE terror that they saw in their neighborhoods,
3:40
SPEAKER_03: whether they were filming or just,
3:41
SPEAKER_03: you know,
3:42
SPEAKER_03: legally observing.
3:43
SPEAKER_03: We saw the shooting deaths of Renee Nicole Good and Alex Preddy.
3:47
There was also one involving an off-duty agent here in LA who
3:50
killed up Keith Porter.
3:52
SPEAKER_03: And these are all instances where
3:54
the agents essentially it's been argued that they weren't
3:58
acting with proper
3:59
de-escalation protocols that's just one of the major things
4:02
that we saw last year
4:03
but the killings aside the raids themselves were extremely
4:07
brutal with you know
4:08
SPEAKER_03: many many many
4:10
SPEAKER_03: 4th Amendment violations being called out by civil liberty organizations,
4:14
SPEAKER_03: immigrant rights defenders,
4:16
and multiple lawsuits filed in federal court challenging the
4:20
raids with one
4:21
SPEAKER_03: reaching all the way up to the Supreme Court,
4:23
SPEAKER_03: right?
4:23
SPEAKER_03: The Perdomo case.
4:24
SPEAKER_03: And so...
4:26
SPEAKER_03: Coming into this year,
4:28
there's been a lot of pressure on Capitol Hill essentially to
4:32
fix or change what we
4:34
SPEAKER_03: see when ICE is doing its operations.
4:36
SPEAKER_03: And so that's why we're seeing this change now.
4:39
SPEAKER_03: Trump is essentially walking back this plan to push people,
4:43
SPEAKER_03: push his agents out onto the streets without enough training.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, just to add on to this, on top of the really
4:51
SPEAKER_01: brutal ways in which ICE raids were conducted across the country.
4:55
I wonder too if,
4:56
you know,
4:56
back in February,
4:57
there was that ICE whistleblower hearing.
5:00
A man named Ryan Schwenk,
5:01
he was a former ICE attorney and training instructor.
5:04
And he kind of came forward really alleging that ICE has really
5:07
reduced training in
5:09
SPEAKER_01: ways that were severely consequential to
5:11
SPEAKER_01: the quality in which they treated U.S. citizens.
5:14
And also they were actively being trained to work against the
5:18
Fourth Amendment.
5:18
And I'm wondering if that whistleblower hearing really
5:21
dovetailed with everything
5:22
else you had just explained here about why they're axing the
5:25
fast track trainings
5:26
SPEAKER_01: now.
5:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so that was one aspect of why this is happening right now.
5:30
SPEAKER_03: The whistleblower essentially came forward saying that he has watched the
5:35
Department of Homeland Security dismantle the training that DHS
5:39
has in place for
5:40
SPEAKER_03: ICE agents.
5:41
SPEAKER_03: I think another factor here is the shutdown.
5:46
SPEAKER_03: The DHS shutdown.
5:49
During that shutdown there were negotiations that were made and
5:52
I should highlight
5:53
SPEAKER_03: that the wanting to reform for
5:57
SPEAKER_03: how ICE is trained was kind of a bipartisan issue on Capitol Hill.
6:01
SPEAKER_03: Major push from the Democrats for sure.
6:03
SPEAKER_03: But I think overall,
6:05
a lot of the lawmakers saw that there needed to be changed to
6:09
essentially reel in
6:10
ICE because there's just been a huge declining support across
6:15
the country from the
6:16
SPEAKER_03: people against ICE.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: So,
6:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:19
it was announced that the Trump administration will act these
6:21
fast track ICE
6:22
SPEAKER_01: trainings,
6:23
SPEAKER_01: but it's still up to question as to what that means,
6:26
SPEAKER_01: right?
6:26
SPEAKER_01: But from what we know right now,
6:29
SPEAKER_01: what could this mean for future ICE raids,
6:31
SPEAKER_01: ICE arrests across the country?
6:32
SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
6:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
6:34
SPEAKER_03: you know,
6:35
I should preface this by saying it's a bit tough to kind of go
6:39
off without seeing
6:40
SPEAKER_03: the actual plans on how they're going to move forward.
6:43
SPEAKER_03: I believe the drafts are still being worked on for these plans.
6:46
SPEAKER_03: But if we can read the room and see how Tom Homan has been speaking,
6:51
saying that we haven't seen anything yet and that we're going
6:54
to see mass arrests
6:56
SPEAKER_03: or mass raids coming again,
6:58
I think that's a very strong indication as to the direction
7:01
they're going.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: By Tom Homan you mean the acting boarder czar?
7:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
7:06
And I think also to seeing the concrete steps they have taken
7:11
with expanding their
7:12
SPEAKER_03: detention capacity,
7:13
SPEAKER_03: right?
7:13
We know that they're buying warehouses across the country or
7:16
trying to buy
7:17
warehouses across the country and there has been pushback on
7:19
that on the local
7:20
SPEAKER_03: levels.
7:21
but this is all to increase their detention capacity yeah and
7:25
you know Tom Homan
7:26
quite famously said that these detention facilities are going
7:29
to be Amazon Prime
7:30
but for human beings so this is the same man that is also
7:33
saying we're gonna flood
7:35
the zone with ICE agents to increase arrests so you know it
7:40
remains to be seen what
7:42
the scope and content of these trainings are going to look like
7:45
moving forward
7:47
But what Tom Homan has said over the last year and recently
7:50
indicates that there
7:51
SPEAKER_01: will be some change.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: It will be consequential.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: And we're going to keep following the story as it comes along.
7:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Ben, for sharing the latest on that.
7:59
SPEAKER_03: Of course.
8:01
SPEAKER_03: So pivoting over,
8:02
SPEAKER_03: Kelly,
8:03
SPEAKER_03: over the past year,
8:04
there have been reports across the country that some landlords
8:06
are weaponizing
8:07
SPEAKER_03: threats of ICE arrests against their tenants.
8:10
You came across a recent report from the New York City news
8:13
source Documented.
8:14
SPEAKER_03: Tell us what's going on.
8:15
Absolutely a big fan of this local news source documented they
8:18
report on immigrant
8:19
communities all over the five boroughs of New York City and
8:22
this is a piece by
8:23
Eileen Grinch where she reported late April that landlords in
8:28
New York City are
8:29
allegedly using the threat of ICE arrest to basically harass
8:33
immigrant tenants if
8:34
SPEAKER_01: they so much as ask for apartment repairs if they try to unionize
8:38
SPEAKER_01: or if they complain about building or apartment conditions.
8:42
And so this is all according to various advocacy organizations
8:45
and elected
8:46
officials who testified at a joint oversight hearing of a city
8:50
council committee on
8:51
SPEAKER_01: housing and a city council committee on immigration.
8:55
so this case is interesting because the same way that we are
8:58
seeing the Trump
8:59
administration weaponizing the letter of the law against really
9:03
vulnerable
9:04
communities especially immigrants we're also seeing that happen
9:07
with landlords who
9:09
have a certain level of power over the tenants especially if
9:12
they're immigrant
9:12
tenants and to be sure there are laws protecting immigrants in
9:15
New York you can't
9:16
SPEAKER_01: retaliate against a tenant for reporting housing issues
9:21
But advocates say immigration enforcement is regularly used
9:25
against immigrant
9:26
SPEAKER_01: tenants who report landlords for bad conditions.
9:30
And these are only the reported issues that this city council
9:33
committee hearing had heard from.
9:35
For every reported issue there are countless more that fall
9:39
into the shadows.
9:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah Really scary stuff Is New York City the only instance of this?
9:45
SPEAKER_03: Are you seeing this anywhere else?
9:46
No So basically I kind of looked at every site of major ICE
9:49
raids So there was
9:50
Operation Midway Blitz in Chicago last year There were the
9:53
anti-ICE raid protests
9:55
SPEAKER_01: in Los Angeles as well
9:57
And so I looked toward those major cities and found the
10:00
blueprint to be quite similar.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: So let's take us to Chicago.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: Last year during Operation Midway Blitz,
10:07
there was quite notably a high profile ICE raid of a south side
10:12
building and it was
10:13
SPEAKER_01: raided.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: And this was an ugly raid.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: There were 37 people arrested.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: It involved the FBI.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: It involved Border Patrol.
10:20
It involves Helicopters Trump alleged that there were Tren de
10:24
Aragua gang members
10:25
in this building which by the way to this day DHS has not given
10:29
an update on any
10:31
official charges of the 37 people arrested in this building
10:34
well right but this
10:36
building was in such terrible shape that everyone had to vacate
10:41
that building at
10:41
SPEAKER_01: the end of last year
10:44
SPEAKER_01: Now,
10:44
there's an investigation happening by the state of Illinois
10:47
that's saying,
10:48
we think that the landlord of that building called ICE on its
10:56
own tenants.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: And so the allegations here are that the building was in terrible shape.
11:02
Maybe he wanted to vacate the building to do some renovations
11:05
or demolitions.
11:07
And so he allegedly called ICE to vacate the building and get
11:12
rid of his tenants.
11:13
it's an investigation so everything is open but that is that's
11:17
a really significant
11:18
way to weaponize the letter of the law to weaponize ICE in ways
11:21
that leave tenants
11:23
whether or not they're immigrants or citizens or undocumented
11:27
they kind of leave
11:28
them in the lurch in ways that are it's brand new language and
11:32
a brand new reality
11:33
that we're seeing there's also a report from Los Angeles this
11:36
is a piece reported
11:37
SPEAKER_01: by The Real Deal
11:39
there something really consequential happened a landlord was
11:41
charged under the LA
11:42
tenant anti harassment ordinance for a slew of wrongdoing
11:46
against her tenants
11:47
including allegedly threatening to call ICE agents to arrest
11:50
them after some of
11:51
these tenants complained of a lack of sanitary conditions like
11:55
broken plumbing and
11:56
a lack of safe doors the wild part is that the landlord in this
12:00
particular case is
12:01
SPEAKER_01: herself an immigrant from Romania
12:04
so in each of these instances in New York and Chicago and LA
12:07
there are allegations
12:08
that landlords are using ICE to get rid of tenants to
12:10
intimidate tenants so that
12:12
they can either skirt responsibility over their properties or
12:14
they can maybe even
12:15
vacate the building to do renovations or to develop it further
12:19
in ways that really
12:20
skirt the law jeez so is there anything being done to hold bad
12:25
actors accountable
12:26
yeah oh I've only seen a couple of things this is all brand new
12:29
as I mentioned this
12:30
we're developing brand new language for this we're developing a
12:32
brand new reality
12:33
SPEAKER_01: here
12:34
SPEAKER_01: In New York, they're going for the buildings.
12:36
So city council is looking to make permanent a pilot program
12:40
that they've recently
12:40
SPEAKER_01: expanded called the Certification of No Harassment Program or CONH.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: So basically,
12:46
SPEAKER_01: if a landlord wants to do any construction projects on their property,
12:51
SPEAKER_01: do building alterations or even demolition,
12:53
they have to opt into this program that would require them to
12:56
be investigated into
12:58
to see whether they had participated in tenant harassment
13:01
before getting these
13:02
permits so they can't like harass their tenants or say hey
13:06
we're gonna call ICE if
13:07
you don't get out of this building or whatever it is they can't
13:09
harass them to
13:10
leave the tenants have to leave on their own accord and then
13:13
from there a landlord
13:15
SPEAKER_01: could then get a permit to do whatever they want to their own property
13:18
The buildings that are on the list right now for the current
13:22
version of this
13:22
program are buildings that are already quite run down or
13:26
buildings that have
13:26
experienced a high level of ownership change in certain parts
13:30
of the city.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: So from there,
13:32
they're going to expand the list of buildings that will be part
13:34
of this pilot
13:35
SPEAKER_01: program that they hope to be permanent.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: There are other laws that they're looking into as well.
13:40
So there are other laws that are similarly trying to protect
13:45
immigrant tenants.
13:45
SPEAKER_01: So let's look now to LA County.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: County wants to raise the threshold for eviction.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: So right now,
13:52
SPEAKER_01: if a tenant misses one month's rent,
13:55
SPEAKER_01: a landlord has the right to begin eviction proceedings.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: They want to raise that bar to two months rent.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: And here's why.
14:03
It's because ever since ICE raids happened in Los Angeles over
14:08
the last year,
14:08
advocates have been saying that financial pressure has really
14:11
fallen on tenants,
14:13
SPEAKER_01: especially immigrant tenants.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: These ICE raids were brutal in Los Angeles.
14:16
some people have been discouraged from going to work going to
14:18
school some people
14:19
have been discouraged from walking the streets of Los Angeles
14:22
to then conduct
14:22
business or purchase things at different stores or other
14:25
businesses and so there's
14:26
been a dwindling kind of economy as a result of these ice rates
14:31
is what advocates
14:31
are basically saying and so this new rule should it come to
14:35
pass would give
14:36
families more time to catch up on rent during a period of fear
14:40
and financial
14:40
SPEAKER_01: disruption
14:42
SPEAKER_03: I see.
14:43
SPEAKER_03: Thanks for taking us into that, Kelly.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: And there's definitely more to come to this.
14:46
We're just at the early stages of what these tenant landlord
14:49
relationships could look like.
14:51
So we're going to take a little break and be right back with an
14:54
exclusive interview
14:55
SPEAKER_01: with a seasoned researcher from the Migration Policy Institute.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: Stick with us.
15:06
SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, Ben Camacho here.
15:08
I've hosted this show for only two weeks and it's already
15:10
apparent to me the heart
15:12
SPEAKER_03: and dedication that both Matt and Kelly pour into the show.
15:15
SPEAKER_03: Today,
15:16
SPEAKER_03: independent journalism is in the middle of a renaissance,
15:19
SPEAKER_03: with over one-third of journalists now working outside traditional media,
15:23
driven by layoffs at legacy outlets and a passion and readiness
15:27
to fill key
15:28
SPEAKER_03: coverage gaps.
15:30
SPEAKER_03: That's exactly what we are doing with This Week On ICE.
15:32
Kelly and Matt founded this show because they saw the need to
15:36
contextualize the
15:36
SPEAKER_03: cascade of headlines about ICE.
15:39
SPEAKER_03: but we need your help.
15:41
SPEAKER_03: By sharing this podcast with others,
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SPEAKER_03: and pledging your support via Substack,
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our small but
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mighty team of three deepen the analysis and original reporting
15:57
that goes into the
15:58
SPEAKER_03: show.
15:59
SPEAKER_03: Thanks for listening.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to This Week On ICE.
16:08
SPEAKER_02: We are now joined by Colleen Putzel-Kavanaugh,
16:10
SPEAKER_02: an analyst at the Migration Policy Institute,
16:13
SPEAKER_02: where she focuses on communities and migrations along the U.S.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: border.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: She also has a deep connection to the largest border city,
16:19
SPEAKER_02: San Diego,
16:20
SPEAKER_02: California,
16:21
where she spent years conducting field research and
16:23
humanitarian work with
16:24
SPEAKER_02: migrants,
16:25
SPEAKER_02: and also worked in the office of Mayor Todd Gloria.
16:27
SPEAKER_02: Colleen, welcome to the show.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for having me.
16:31
SPEAKER_02: Of course,
16:31
I wanted to start by discussing the role that municipalities
16:36
and states have taken
16:37
in certain areas to protect people who are vulnerable to abuse
16:40
and harassment from
16:41
SPEAKER_02: federal immigration authorities,
16:43
SPEAKER_02: given that the federal government seems to be totally aligned,
16:46
SPEAKER_02: at least in the executive branch,
16:47
SPEAKER_02: on this crackdown.
16:49
I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about some
16:51
roadblocks that cities
16:52
SPEAKER_02: and states have tried to throw up to increase accountability.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
16:56
so one of the biggest distinctions that we see with localities
17:02
is really if they
17:03
have an agreement with the federal government to share
17:06
information with ICE.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: So those agreements mostly look like 287G agreements,
17:11
which are individualized agreements with a state or local law
17:15
enforcement and ICE
17:17
SPEAKER_00: and an agreement to share information.
17:19
So we've seen a huge proliferation of those agreements under
17:23
the second Trump administration.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: and they continue to grow daily.
17:27
If you check the website with them,
17:29
every day is a different and growing number.
17:31
Part of the reason for that is the Trump administration has
17:35
been really vocal about
17:37
SPEAKER_00: wanting state support for this.
17:39
And another reason is that they've changed the program slightly
17:42
to offer some
17:43
SPEAKER_00: sweeteners to states and localities who agree to these agreements,
17:49
SPEAKER_00: which could take the form of
17:50
SPEAKER_00: upgraded vehicles, paying parts of salaries, etc.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: That's a new phenomenon with these agreements.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: Previously,
17:58
there was no incentive offered other than a potential crackdown
18:03
on irregular
18:04
SPEAKER_00: immigration.
18:05
on the flip side we're seeing like you said a lot of states and
18:08
localities making
18:10
moves to sort of limit ICE's ability to carry out certain
18:15
enforcements or at least
18:16
use certain tactics and those are taking a variety of forms in
18:20
some places that
18:20
might be legislation introduced to keep ICE out of school areas
18:25
school zones it
18:26
could have to do with ICE masking or needing to wear some sort
18:32
of gear that
18:32
SPEAKER_00: identifies themselves rather than plain clothes
18:35
SPEAKER_00: And then,
18:35
SPEAKER_00: of course,
18:36
there's also places that have legislation or have introduced
18:39
legislation that says
18:40
that states and localities cannot enter into those data sharing
18:45
287G agreements
18:46
SPEAKER_00: with ICE.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: So we've seen sort of a mismatch,
18:49
SPEAKER_00: but also even within states,
18:51
you could go from one place to another and have entirely
18:55
different agreements.
18:56
And then,
18:57
of course,
18:57
we're seeing a huge states to state variation as well.
19:01
SPEAKER_02: Speaking about this jurisdictional problem,
19:03
SPEAKER_02: I think that's highlighted where I live here in Washington,
19:06
SPEAKER_02: D.C.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: with some of the police cooperation with immigration authorities.
19:11
So D.C.,
19:11
I know this is a very unique circumstance,
19:13
but maybe other metro areas have a similarly
19:16
kind of balkanized police system like I believe in the DMV
19:20
there's something like
19:21
30 different police organizations and so while our Metropolitan
19:25
Police Department
19:26
is supposed to not work with ICE directly not share information
19:28
with them well like
19:30
the park police does right or you know so we have these other
19:33
other jurisdictions
19:34
that kind of do and I'm wondering if you've seen that like
19:37
funnel the enforcement
19:38
SPEAKER_02: action into these friendlier communities friendly to ICE I mean to say
19:41
Well actually I think that the effect can sometimes be the
19:43
opposite and the reason
19:45
that I say that is because if a jurisdiction has a data sharing
19:50
agreement with ICE
19:51
SPEAKER_00: then presumably they need less resources
19:54
to actually carry out some sort of enforcement operation
19:57
because they have the
19:59
SPEAKER_00: added resources of that state or jurisdiction or locality.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: And so for example,
20:05
ICE may ask some police department to hold someone who is about
20:10
to finish their
20:11
SPEAKER_00: sentence
20:12
and they ask that they be held so that ICE can come and pick
20:15
them up to sort of
20:17
SPEAKER_00: start their deportation process.
20:18
That would maybe require,
20:20
you know,
20:20
a couple of agents to go and fulfill that request.
20:24
And most of the resources in that scenario are really reliant
20:28
on that state or local partner.
20:30
Whereas where we've seen ICE carry out larger operations in
20:35
terms of going into
20:36
SPEAKER_00: communities,
20:37
SPEAKER_00: patrolling streets,
20:39
SPEAKER_00: going into work sites,
20:40
those tend to actually use a lot more agents because they might
20:44
have a place in
20:45
mind that they're targeting there could be either an individual
20:49
or a business
20:49
that's being specifically targeted but in those instances they
20:53
also oftentimes
20:55
interact with the community at large maybe arresting more
20:58
people than they
20:59
necessarily were going in targeting or planning to arrest and
21:04
so those scenarios
21:05
SPEAKER_00: actually use more agents and more resources
21:08
SPEAKER_02: That makes a lot of sense.
21:09
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you clarifying that.
21:11
SPEAKER_02: I'm curious,
21:12
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:12
as we drill down to some of the policies that we've mentioned
21:15
states and localities
21:16
SPEAKER_02: taking to try and create more accountability,
21:18
do you have any data on what is proven most effective or where
21:22
we've seen maybe
21:23
SPEAKER_02: some pitfalls?
21:24
SPEAKER_02: Like I'm thinking,
21:24
SPEAKER_02: for instance,
21:25
about body cameras and the fears around surveillance networks
21:28
related to body
21:29
SPEAKER_02: cameras,
21:29
SPEAKER_02: things like that.
21:31
Right you know these these types of scenarios kind of always
21:35
have you know on the
21:37
one side there's an added benefit on the other side there's an
21:40
issue with it and so
21:41
SPEAKER_00: I think that
21:42
as these policies develop,
21:44
we're going to see trade-offs that are going to occur.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: So there's the issue of body cameras.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: One of the,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:51
the key issues that we've heard about is in terms of masking
21:55
has to do with the
21:56
safety of agents who have experienced threats to themselves or
21:59
their families
22:00
SPEAKER_00: because of their actions as part of the ICE agency.
22:03
And I think the other piece of it could potentially be that
22:09
people are concerned about
22:12
SPEAKER_00: the information sharing when it comes to jails.
22:14
And I think that a really big misunderstanding about it is that
22:20
there are places
22:21
that maybe don't have a 287G agreement or are considered a
22:25
sanctuary jurisdiction,
22:27
SPEAKER_00: which is of course a very amorphous word.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: It means a lot of different things.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: But they may actually still hand someone over to Immigration and Customs
22:35
Enforcement if that person has committed a really egregious
22:38
felony or presents some
22:40
SPEAKER_00: sort of national security risk.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: So in all of these situations it's not cut and dry.
22:46
SPEAKER_02: I wanted to hit on something you just said there.
22:49
This point that I think you were gesturing at that while cities
22:54
and states might be
22:55
SPEAKER_02: able to kind of limit the rate they're working with someone,
22:59
there is a degree to which if we were living in say 10 years
23:04
ago and someone was
23:06
brought in on a felony offense and they were also an
23:09
undocumented migrant or an
23:10
SPEAKER_02: overstated visa or something like that,
23:12
SPEAKER_02: we would probably want
23:13
SPEAKER_02: the justice system to be able to account for both of those things.
23:17
It's a dangerous criminal act that they're accused of,
23:19
and there's this immigration status.
23:21
And so I was wondering if you would say that perhaps there's a
23:25
limit to how far
23:26
SPEAKER_02: states and cities can go to not cooperate with ICE,
23:29
given that there are areas where those states and cities
23:32
presumably do want kind of
23:34
SPEAKER_02: that effective migration enforcement to be happening as well.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: Certainly, certainly.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: In any scenario, in any jurisdiction,
23:41
SPEAKER_00: a state or a local law enforcement agency cannot
23:46
SPEAKER_00: interfere with an ICE operation and so the level to which they support or
23:52
contribute resources or contribute personnel is typically the
23:56
barometer but a local
23:58
police force can't go in and block ICE from trying to carry out
24:01
their enforcement
24:02
operation perhaps that local police force doesn't necessarily
24:06
share information
24:07
with ICE but the word cooperate I think is often used to
24:11
describe these scenarios
24:12
SPEAKER_00: But it's not that a local police force is not cooperating with ICE.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: They're just not sharing information.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: They're not sharing resources.
24:19
But they're not actively inhibiting ICE from carrying out their
24:22
operation.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: So I think that that's, you know, kind of a big misunderstanding as well.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: That would be a federal crime.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: They cannot do that.
24:29
I also want to talk about the courts obviously with the Supreme
24:31
Court arguments and
24:32
birthright citizenship there's a lot of attention there but
24:35
local courts seem to be
24:37
this like huge huge focus of where for example habeas petitions
24:42
can be filed where
24:43
SPEAKER_02: some of these bond
24:44
SPEAKER_02: bond hearings might happen that might get someone out of custody.
24:47
I'm wondering if you could tell us about how the crackdown has
24:51
strained those
24:52
SPEAKER_02: systems or what role they're playing?
24:55
SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a really important question.
24:58
So there was a policy change last year that essentially changed
25:03
how various
25:04
SPEAKER_00: noncitizens were perceived when they were arrested by ICE and then put in
25:09
SPEAKER_00: detention.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: that essentially made them ineligible for bond.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: And that's a sort of a new interpretation of an existing law,
25:18
SPEAKER_00: but also a departure from decades of practice.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: And so what this meant is that people
25:24
were arrested by ICE and detained and then they weren't able to
25:27
post bond for their
25:28
release to then you know sort of be out of detention for the
25:32
duration of their case
25:34
so what we saw was both a huge rise in the number of people in
25:37
detention but we
25:38
also saw this huge rise that you alluded to of people filing
25:41
habeas petitions and
25:43
SPEAKER_00: so they are individually challenging the basis of their detention
25:47
and you know by and large we saw that a lot of federal courts
25:51
were actually siding
25:52
with the folks in detention and ordering that they may be
25:56
released on bond but we
25:57
SPEAKER_00: have also seen
25:59
SPEAKER_00: two circuits,
25:59
SPEAKER_00: I believe the fifth and the eighth circuits,
26:01
where they've actually sided with the administration on this
26:04
interpretation of the
26:05
SPEAKER_00: law.
26:05
So we're again seeing a kind of bifurcation of how this policy
26:10
is being applied
26:11
SPEAKER_00: depending on where people are being held in detention.
26:14
The other piece of it is that federal courts were getting
26:16
inundated with habeas petitions.
26:18
There was a judge who actually called it a crisis because of
26:23
the number of
26:24
SPEAKER_00: petitions that were being filed.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: And so federal courts are being inundated
26:29
SPEAKER_00: with this kind of immigration piece of things.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: So when we see that immigration has become
26:35
SPEAKER_00: a sort of all of government problem.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: We mean every step of the way government,
26:41
SPEAKER_00: not just federal government,
26:42
SPEAKER_00: but down to the state level.
26:44
And so it's sort of a,
26:46
I would say a new phenomenon that has been growing for years.
26:50
Even going back to talking about the states that we were
26:53
talking about before,
26:54
SPEAKER_00: that's something that we've seen for decades.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: And the reason for this,
26:58
and I think this is kind of gets to just really the heart of
27:01
the whole thing,
27:03
SPEAKER_00: is that most immigration policy change,
27:05
SPEAKER_00: if not all,
27:07
SPEAKER_00: has happened at the executive level through policy change,
27:10
SPEAKER_00: through regulation change,
27:12
SPEAKER_00: through executive order.
27:14
And because that's not happening through Congress,
27:17
it's subject to challenge.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: And so we've seen policies,
27:23
SPEAKER_00: regulations,
27:23
SPEAKER_00: and executive orders be challenged both under the Obama administration,
27:27
SPEAKER_00: Biden administration first,
27:29
SPEAKER_00: Trump,
27:29
SPEAKER_00: and now again.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: And so this kind of back and forth
27:33
SPEAKER_00: has created a kind of mismatch,
27:36
SPEAKER_00: a confusing hodgepodge of different policies,
27:39
SPEAKER_00: but it's also made states take kind of more action,
27:42
SPEAKER_00: both in filing suits,
27:44
but also in creating their own state-level legislation to deal
27:47
with immigration,
27:49
because it's not being handled at the federal level in a way
27:52
that is appeasing to
27:55
SPEAKER_00: all of the states.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
27:57
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Colleen.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: It was a great conversation.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone, Kelly here.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: When Ben and I recorded this week's episode on Thursday,
28:13
news broke that the Trump administration is in talks to shut
28:17
down the Florida
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Everglades ICE detention center known as Alligator Alcatraz.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: So,
28:23
those who've been with our show for a while now will know quite
28:26
a bit about the
28:27
SPEAKER_01: financial entanglements that have defined Alligator Alcatraz.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: You can check out episode 3 for more.
28:33
per the New York Times Thursday morning while Ben and I were
28:36
recording these talks
28:37
are still preliminary with DHS officials having said it has
28:41
become too expensive to
28:42
keep operating the center which at one point burned 1.2 million
28:48
taxpayer dollars
28:48
per day to keep up it's also a facility that continues to be
28:52
mired and federal
28:53
SPEAKER_01: reimbursement delays meanwhile
28:56
SPEAKER_01: the U.S.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: State Department will begin revoking the U.S.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: passports of those who owe $100,000 or more in unpaid child support.
29:05
The revocations will begin today and will apply to about 2,700
29:09
American passport
29:10
SPEAKER_01: holders per the State Department.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: Moving forward,
29:14
this revocation program will expand to cover parents who owe
29:17
more than $2,500 in
29:19
SPEAKER_01: unpaid child support,
29:21
SPEAKER_01: which could encompass many more thousands of people.
29:25
so these are the latest two stories we wanted to update you all
29:27
with as ever thank
29:29
you so much for listening and we'll catch you next time that's
29:34
it for us this week
29:36
thank you for listening you can always reach us at
29:38
thisweekonice at gmail.com with
29:40
questions comments or tips if you like this podcast please go
29:44
ahead and share it
29:45
with a friend stay safe and look out for your neighbors we'll
29:48
see you next time see
29:49
SPEAKER_01: you