Latest / TWRS-Leadership Straight, No Chaser / Building Teams That Thrive Without You
Transcript
- Scott Brandt: Have you ever been in a situation you look, you look at the individual and you think I could have done it better? Welcome back to Together We Are Stronger, Leadership Straight, No Chaser. And tonight we have Mark Andreon with us. Mark, I you sent over your book. I was reading the first part. There was in the first chapter you had highlighted how I think the fire chief, somebody in line, was injured. They pulled up, there was a f ⁓ house fire going on, and they pulled up the chief passed it on to somebody else. Mark: Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: And then looked at the individuals like, I think it's a a basement fire. And the guy's like, No shit. And then you're like, When I saw that, I was like, That's not gonna ever happen for myself. So based off of that, I'm thinking that's probably the starting point for you where you're like, things have to change. And if we don't change, things don't change. George R Dovolis: Yeah. Mark: Yes. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. F in fact, it was ⁓ it was a captain whose job was to be the leader of the engine crew. And where it became egregious was he was the first do. And so his job should have been him and the firefighter off the back of the engine, grab some tools, grab a hose, go to the seat of fi the fire and start hitting it. And everybody else starts grabbing the other jobs. We're gonna open some windows, we're gonna send some people up. the roof, we'll send a crew in to search the bedrooms, ⁓ but we're not delaying that fire attack. And so when the first do, due to just age and injury, just goes, let's just wait for the other crew to get here. I don't feel like doing this today. it just yeah it's it's to me sent the wrong message of leadership. George R Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: Yeah, no, it it's a very interesting thing because people get put in leadership positions, maybe after time efforts. But is that the ideal fit for them? Because there are times where people you show up and people are like, ⁓ this is perfect. This is where you go. And then we start missing out on people actually beating in their proper zone of geniuses and then actually having a strong team because they're in the proper position. And so when you look at that. Mark: Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: Wh where do you think it really is the collapse where we don't have strong leaders? And leaders are leaders, but they're not true leaders. George R Dovolis: Mmm. Mark: I have seen it in prior jobs in ⁓ the ⁓ before the fire service, I I I work for an airline I ⁓ and ⁓ they're not around anymore. And they had a thing where they paid the supervisors less than the senior workers. So once you got about four years on, you were making more than the supervisor. So if you took the supervisor promotion, it would be a pay cut. So none of the people with job skill or talent would ever do it. And so you ended up with just a lot of people who wanted it for the title. ⁓ they wanted it for the promotion after this promotion, but you didn't really get the cream of the crop of people with job skill and talent in a deep understanding of how this airport worked. ⁓ and then I'm in the fire service and it's completely different. The job pays very well. ⁓ we're never gonna be rich, but we're taken care of. George R Dovolis: Now. Hmm. Yeah. Mark: And you would sometimes see people take the officer route for the money and it's terrible. Sometimes people would take it because they wanted the status and that's terrible. ⁓ you gotta take these leadership jobs for the right reasons. And to me, those reasons are things that that echo into almost every single episode of your podcast. It's it's you gotta wanna make teams stronger. You gotta care about your people. ⁓ you gotta make it better for the people to come after you. George R Dovolis: Mmm. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned right here, realized leadership in the firehouse is not about rank. It's about taking responsibility. And that's something that you're just you guys are just talking about is that responsibility because as leaders when they are they feel like they're entitled or you know, they got it because of this. the responsibility part relies on the main people taking care of it's not always the person in charge. And that's something that I've looked up and read and it's like, wow, you really don't realize that until you have someone like yourself. on that really just explains everything. Mark: Right. And I learned about that taking responsibility and it's another story that's in the book. ⁓ I I learned that absolutely right in the moment. I ⁓ had we had a project. The ⁓ the chief of our shift assigns it to our captain. The captain tells the lieutenant, take care of this. The lieutenant offers to the senior firefighter, which was me, hey, do you want to lead this project? George R Dovolis: else. Mark: Yes, I'm looking forward to run some projects. I gotta start learning this job. I'm gonna build my own leadership skill. I gotta learn that the details of administratively how this job works. And we do this administrative spreadsheet thing with scheduling and it all gets botched. And then all these people's days off got canceled. Everybody's mad. They're calling the union local. But then I figured out, ⁓ it's a problem with the way these documents are shared across multiple computers. It was before Google Docs. George R Dovolis: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: Mm. Mark: So I'm all happy that I figured out the solution. ⁓ the chief was not as rose colored glasses as I was. And so he calls up the station and it's it's like the the the admiral in Top Gun, you know where he's chewing out the captain. He goes, I want some butts. and so he calls up and I could hear the chief yelling at the lieutenant. And the lieutenant goes, Yeah, here, here, here, just a minute. George R Dovolis: Yeah. Mark: Here you better take this call. And he hands me the phone. And I'm What you doing? Yes, sir, sir, sir. Of course, sir. It won't happen again, sir. What do you think you're doing? And the the lieutenant says to me, goes, Well, it was your mistake. This is your job. You take this call. Sir, sir, sir, sir, sir. Of course, sir. Won't happen again, sir. What in the world do you think you're doing? And I just said, ⁓ my God. Right there, right there in the moment I said, If I ever have the chance to be lieutenant, I will never do this to a junior person. I George R Dovolis: Ow. Mark: We'll take that phone call every single time. Scott Brandt: Mm. George R Dovolis: Yeah. ⁓ well, and there's that. of the one of the reasons when you gone into writing a book leading through the heat. Mark: Yes, it was. Yes. ⁓ I I started to get near the back half of my career and I realized how many times me and a lot of my peers were talking about leadership, leadership style. we're comparing ⁓ books we've read and podcasts we've listened to and advice we've seen, and we've talked about managers who were doing well and managers who were struggling. George R Dovolis: You Mark: And what can we learn from this? And I I realized, boy, this is a topic I'm actually kind of interested in. And so ⁓ I ended up ⁓ getting a GoPro helmet ⁓ helmet cam. And I got some footage that I put on my Instagram page, and all of a sudden all these fire podcasts are calling me. Hey, why don't you come on and we'll talk tactics, strategy, and sometimes leadership and management. And so I said, Yeah, let's do it. And then I realized, man, I got a lot of really cool notes here. George R Dovolis: Mmm. Wow. Mark: Well let's just knuckle down and do this. George R Dovolis: I think that's truly amazing and to to really be on a podcast talk about things a lot of people don't talk about right you don't you don't see what what what happens behind the scenes and one of the things I want to know when that alarm sands off what does real leadership look like in that moment when that alarm hits and everyone's running around what does real leadership look like when that happens Mark: To me, it has to look like the way you've trained. It has to be a reflection of the groundwork you've laid weeks to months to years ahead of time. So when we get called for a fire in an industrial building or a car rollover, and man does Dearborn, Michigan get a lot of rollovers. ⁓ we get called for just a regular house fire. Sometimes the dispatcher will even say George R Dovolis: Mmm. Mark: We're getting reports, there's a victim. All right. This is the real thing. We don't get one of these every day. We get one of these every few years. we've already mentally through tabletop training, ⁓ physically trained in practice houses, reviewed SOPs as a crew. ⁓ so we're now in a place where I don't have to stand at the scene and bark orders. George R Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Mark: ⁓ they generally know their standing orders well before we get there. So for me when the alarm sounds, that's the time to be calm, trust your training, trust the crew. And then if you got to get on the radio a little bit, hey guys, I'm gonna park, we're gonna park the engine over here. We're gonna stretch in this direction. And then they'll know, ⁓ well then I should park over here and I should do this. Because it was already part of kind of a semi structured plan anyway. George R Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: Yeah, so right now to highlight one of our partners, ADP, as a business owner, there's probably things that you didn't get into business for, back roll or payroll, compliance, the back end stuff. And so ADP is here to be a team member of yours to allow you to focus on your strengths. They take care of what they ⁓ are best in, which is that back end stuff. So that way you can go and function as business, really go impact the clients that you're meant to impact. George R Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: And so if that's something that you're struggling with, you don't know what to do, in the show notes there will be a link, reach out to ADP and have that conversation with them. And Mark, it's it's very interesting how you had talked about as a group, you guys would pass on stories of, hey, this is what's worked out well George R Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: This is probably something that hasn't worked out well. Here's podcasts that we've listened to. Here's books. Here's different things to share with each other. And that's one that I see a lot of people struggling with on really passing on information, sharing information. And some of it comes down to the fact that they think they have an idea. And so if they share something, somebody's gonna steal it, run off with it, and then go and claim it as their own. And in today's day and age, there's No originality, so there's a book it's called Still Like an Artist, and so as an artist, you take different ideas and you combine them, and it's the same thing here. There's really no original ideas, it's just finding where the choke point is and creating a solution to give it to somebody. ⁓ so when you were in that, people are sharing. Why do you think that's important to have that type of structure where you're sharing resources, sharing information? Maybe there's something that you haven't thought about that somebody's sharing your Mark: Yeah. I love that point. ⁓ because you're one, you want the teams prepared because there could be a medical patient's health or safety on the line. There could be our safety on the line if we're out of fire or a car extrication. So I want everybody to h perform highly because the goal is to be able to go home at the end of the day. ⁓ for me, those trainings are are the way to to get that. George R Dovolis: Hmm. Mark: But I found some of the best leadership examples I had were from the bosses who would say, here's this scenario that we're gonna tabletop, what are your guys' thoughts? And then somebody would say this, you know, that's a really good point. And I I remembered to do that myself. Always throw it out to the crew. ⁓ if if we've got ⁓ a house fire video and we're gonna break it down, ⁓ I would say, here's what I'm seeing. Are you guys seeing anything different? George R Dovolis: Yes. Mark: And then one person would say, I saw this construction style once, and here's how it affected things. That's a really good point. Why aren't you going deeper on that? ⁓ because it it's got a multifaceted benefit. One, we're getting the information. I don't know at all, and I want more opinions because there's more ways to look at it. Some of these people are coming from different departments and could have seen different towns or different construction styles or different tools. And ⁓ so I need the information. Scott Brandt: Yeah. Mark: The other is so multi-layered. It's now when I take their ideas and not only listen to them, but implement them, I'm now empowering them to want to do better because they could see they're being appreciated and rewarded. Whereas I've seen it in the past, ⁓ somebody somebody at a fire, and I've seen this two or three times. ⁓ hey boss, ⁓ I saw some smoke coming out the back. I George R Dovolis: this. Mark: think we've got extension heading in the other direction. See this badge? You think you could talk to me? You go sit over there. Look at this gold badge. You know who I am? Whoa, ⁓ my God, we're we're really doing this in the middle of the street. And ⁓ I ⁓ can only imagine ⁓ just how horrible that is for that young person's morale to have to have heard that. George R Dovolis: Hmm That was one of the questions that I had about leadership that tries so hard to prove that they're in charge and they do more damage putting people down instead of leading by example. And I think... Mark: Mm-hmm. Yes Yes You're right. George R Dovolis: I think that's in all business and especially when you're in that type of service, police department, fire department, you're saving lives, you're doing everything you can to save families houses and do have someone who is manipulating a system by I'm in charge, look at my badge and not leading by example as a poor leader, ⁓ definitely a poor leader into showing their team what to do. Mark: Yeah. Right. I hear s horror stories in the corporate world of that. Yeah. Just it in whether it's Fortune five hundred companies or ⁓ mid level government jobs, ⁓ just people in an office full of cubicles, and God forbid you find just some middle manager director and you say, Hey, I got this idea and then all of a sudden one of two things will happen. He'll sh he or she will shout you down or take your idea and run with it and I'll give you the credit. George R Dovolis: Yeah. Exactly, yeah. Mark: Yeah. And so here's a here's a question for both of you. Do you mind if I turn the tables a bit? ⁓ I th the both of you this is what I found interesting, is the both of you are entrepreneurs, which meant you started a business. You started having to do everything. And you've talked in multiple podcasts before. There is ⁓ a time where your business expands and you need more people and you're gonna turn this into now hiring employees. Scott Brandt: Yeah, so Yeah, go ahead. George R Dovolis: Yeah, go ahead, please. Mark: And then how did you grow to that you called it the gap in leading versus doing? because you don't want to be doing too much. And so for us, it's just baked into the system that as you go up, you should be a team player, you should be rewarding the younger people. It's it's baked into how we're taught. How does an entrepreneur do that when you're solo and then you decide, you know, I'm gonna bring on seven people? Is that an adjustment? George R Dovolis: Go ahead, Scott. I'll let you know. answer later. Scott Brandt: I yeah, it is. It is because what you're really you're having to look at and say, okay, what is it that I really need to focus on? What is the strength that I have? Because if I'm doing things that don't benefit me, that aren't my passion, I'm not gonna wanna do it. And then that's gonna get the balls dropped there and we're gonna be in trouble over there. And so it's the fact of okay, what do I really need to focus on that's gonna 10 X us? Mark: Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: And the things that are two X things that don't benefit me anymore, who can I hand that off to that is their strength? And so it is confronting and saying, Okay, drop the ego. I don't know everything. This is my strength. This is where I'm weak at. Okay, now who do I need to come and bring in that's gonna complement that weakness with their strength? George R Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: And so it is really giving up the ego and saying I can't do everything on my own, but I need to make sure I'm in my zone of genius. Because if I'm not operating my zone of genius, then you're gonna start burning out. And so there's multiple different facets. Like one that I've talked about is the working zone of genius. And so that's a assessment that you can take. There's six different geniuses there. And you might come to find out that as the business owner, you might not be the ideal one to be the owner of the business. Mark: Yeah. George R Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: It's like, okay, who do I need to bring in that can bring these ideas to life? I can feed the gasoline to watch it grow. But that's also a sad day for some people because they're like, ⁓ that means this I'm not the one at the top, even though I had this idea. ⁓ so for my part, that's one that I think a lot of people overlook, but it's the ego piece that they've got to let go and say, I suck at this, I need to find somebody that's strong in it to come and compliment so that way I can save my zone of genius and make. Mark: Yeah, so we occasionally run across ego with people in the fire service. ⁓ it's generally pretty rare. We're fortunate that it it's baked into your training as you're coming up from the ground level, promoting through all the ranks. It it's taught to you to ⁓ be a team player. Scott Brandt: Mm. Yeah. George R Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: But I think a little a little bit of that though too, because coming from the military, it's also understanding that you don't know everything. So you may have come up a certain way and have learned certain things, but you have the younger generation coming up, they're dealing with different things, technology and different things of that nature. And so it is having that open mind saying, I don't know everything. Is there something that they see that they know that I don't know about that I want to go and look at? But that's the other thing though too. It's also saying, Okay, is this gonna Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm. Scott Brandt: move us forward or is it potentially gonna derail us? But it's having that open mind is let me listen because there might be something that I'm not aware of because I'm an old head and I'm used to doing it this way. New generation comes in, they're doing things differently. It's scary because it's not your way, but it could be advantageous to you to cut something down to cut your learning curve and say, okay, yeah, that's cool. That wasn't something that I knew, so let's go ahead and implement it. But it's that curious piece and kind George R Dovolis: Mm. Mark: Sure. Mm-hmm. Right? George R Dovolis: Thank Scott Brandt: kinda let the ego down and saying, Yeah, I don't know everything and sometimes my way doesn't work anymore but that's scary because that's now giving up your comfort zone. Mark: There's a leadership author and podcastos out of Australia, and I had a chance to read his book and and and meet him. His name is Mick Spires, and he's got a passage in his book about exactly that. He goes, I was burning myself out. When I got promoted to vice president in a corporation, career goal, this is what I achieved wanted to achieve. I'm 20 years in, and I'm I've got a team of a thousand people, and I've got this entire district of the country. Scott Brandt: Yeah. George R Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Mark: And I didn't trust anybody. I did every project and then all of a sudden I realized I'm working seven days a week, 18 hour days, I'm physically gassed. He goes, and it still didn't register with me. And then I had to take a trip to another country and leave the the team alone and nobody had to knew how to do anything and it all fell apart. And he goes, I realized in that moment, never do anything in isolation ever again. George R Dovolis: you Mark: Everything I physically do will be training or learning. And I said, Wow, that's a really good ⁓ tactic. George R Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: Mm. George R Dovolis: And for me to add to it, when I my first company, I was almost 20 years old when I owned Palm Desert Upholstery. And I have 14, 14 people working, right, my team, I never called employees, 14 individuals working for me. And the one thing that I tell I tell everybody I can't sew. I would sew my two hands together better than taking two pieces of fabric. But I was good at is ⁓ taking the team and having that synergy with the team, going out, doing customer service, going out, meeting people. What I created was three of the, out of the 14, when I sold the company, broke off. and start their own company, follow the footsteps. I just talked to Frank Jr. His dad is at Chapala Lake in Mexico. He lives in California and then he goes back to Mexico where he's from. it's all about, for me, it's about team. It's about showing. If I ask you to go out and shovel shit, I'm gonna be next to you shoveling. I was the leader that teaches people no matter if I'm an owner or not. And I was probably... Mark: Mm-hmm. George R Dovolis: I was the youngest. So I was the youngest out of my whole crew. I was 21, 20, 21. These guys are 25, 26. But what I developed was a team that really helped everyone out. When I sold the company, I had 75 live applications to work at my upholster shop. And it was, was the people that we met. Mark: Mm. George R Dovolis: You know, I've met ⁓ presidents, golf legends. basketball, football legends, movie stars, people that you see on TV. And here I'm in my 20s. But what I taught Frank and then Roberto Javier is that no matter where you come from, you can still do the same thing I'm doing. But what's great about you guys that you can do the work. I am relying on you guys to do the work for me to give to our clients. That's why they got paid in 19. $183.25 an hour. I was the highest paid upholstery shop. But again, it's all about team. It's all that synergy. It's all about teaching you learning stuff from them. What do all it's it's a learning. For me, it's all about learning. Yeah. And that's one thing Scott that we talked about is always being the student. And there's some things like I said down the road, I, you know, I thought I knew everything, right? But Mark: Yeah. George R Dovolis: as a leader and as a coach, I taught everything and learned everything. I learned how to do everything those guys did. I didn't go play golf every day and if I did, I did it after work. So really leading by example and taking care of the people around you. That's so important. It's so important. Mark: Yes. Yeah, le you're right. Leading leading by example is is is just key. And like you said, you gotta have a team, you gotta trust them, you gotta put them in place. to the they could do their best work, but you gotta lead by example. And that doesn't mean I gotta micromanage, it doesn't mean I have to physically do everything. Sometimes I've got my stuff to do in the office, and I'm gonna say, Hey guys, here's this project. Do you do you got it? George R Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mark: Absolutely, boss, we got it. And then they s they see that I'm trusting them and I know they're tr so I can I can physically get my stuff done, but then they got the mental image of of them being trusted. George R Dovolis: And that's it. Yeah. Everyone knew who the leader was in the shop. And I made it very, everyone knew. And then when Frank wasn't there, then it was Rego. And everyone knew the example of what we wanted to be done. So everyone had a mindset of what we expect to give to our clients, the sofas and chairs and all this stuff, the custom made furniture. So it really is laid by example and then giving that power to your employees, your team to lead by example, to teach and to do everything. It was a, it's an incredible experience to have when everyone's doing their deal. Mark: Yeah. For sure. When you talk about teams, that is a a benefit to the fire service is ⁓ my station had ⁓ had either eight or ten people every day, depending on the the staffing who was sacrification. So it'd either be ten or it'd be eight. And so ⁓ the crew ahead of ten ⁓ is the same crew every day for about a year. And then if we have a rookie probationary member, they might switch every six months and go to a different station until they've been all around the town. And so George R Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mark: The benefit to to building a team that way is not only can those people learn their leadership style, feel valued, want to come to work, ⁓ it's that rookie. They can now see, ⁓ this guy with five years on the job, he's trusted by the boss. He's been given not fake authority but real authority. I now can trust him because I see the boss trusts him. So when that guy gives an order on a medical run that I'm not even involved with, it will George R Dovolis: See Mark: carry the weight of the team because we've built that that that ⁓ mindset in like I said weeks to months to years in advance. George R Dovolis: Yeah. Scott Brandt: Yeah, so right now if you're getting nuggets from the video, hit the like button. If you're you're looking for these types of videos, hit the subscribe button. One thing as you're listening, you've got to ask yourself, are you open to exploring? Are you open to saying I don't know everything? And then building those teams out to complement your weaknesses with their strengths. But if you're not, then that's probably why you're stuck. So just something to think about. And Mark, when you look at You you talk about this idea of command versus inspiring. And it's it's a very interesting thing because as leaders a lot of times they're like, I've gotta demand this from somebody XYZ Mark: Yes. George R Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: And when we think about demanding something, commanding from somebody, it's very hard for them to buy in. The there's an interesting thing. George and I were going through some training and it was for life coaching. The the trainer was saying, if you tell somebody what to do, 80% aren't gonna do what they need to do because they didn't come up with it. But if you work with them, ask questions, and they figure out, ⁓ this is what I need to do, they have a higher George R Dovolis: Hmm. Scott Brandt: Likely it's like 90% that they're going to go do whatever they pinpoint, and so I think with that command versus inspiration piece, it's a little bit of the same hand in hand piece, there too. Where if you command somebody to do something, and it depends on the situation, too, because that's the one thing, too. It all depends on the situation. Now, but if there's not life and death, it's not we gotta do this way because if we don't, we're something's gonna happen. But if we go and inspire somebody and George R Dovolis: You Scott Brandt: have that conversation, they're more likely to buy in, they're more likely to follow you as a leader instead of the one that's gonna drive and command everything. So when you look at that situation, the command versus the inspiring piece, what's that differentiation that you see when somebody really taps into really the inspirational piece over commanding? Mark: For me, the inspiration was really judged exactly like you said it, but I would look at it from a a larger above macro type viewpoint. ⁓ yes, I don't w I rarely had to give direct orders to people. Almost all the time I would say, Hey guys, ⁓ I'm seeing this. Why don't we go ahead and we're gonna attack from this side? ⁓ can you guys ladder the building? But what I won't do is tell them what ladder to grab, what tools to bring up to the roof, what side of the roof to go on. I will trust that they have been training enough that they could size up the construction style of the house and they could figure that out. Because I've seen bosses do that. Hey, I want the twenty-four foot ladder. I want you to carry the sixteen, but carry it in your left hand, 'cause I want your right hand to have a pickhead axe. You carry the halligan tool. And when you go up, I want you to go three feet to the right of that ridge. ⁓ my God, what are we doing here? George R Dovolis: and Scott Brandt: Mm. Mark: ⁓ so you gotta lay that groundwork. So you're right. and so most of the time they're inspired to want to do good work because they've been trusted. But in a bigger sense, inspiration to me was ⁓ because of that trust, because of the buy-in, because of me leading by example, or us as a team doing good work. We get this person out of a bad car wreck. We get this. George R Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: Yeah. Mark: trauma victim to a hospital quickly and stop the bleed. We helped deliver this baby. We found a person in a fire and we're safely able to get them out. Whatever the the positive outcome was, ⁓ if it happened because the team worked well together, you would see things in the fire service that to me are true inspiration. And that is a lack of absenteeism. Of we we had a a a crazy call with a great outcome. Nope. George R Dovolis: Hmm. Mark: Everybody's coming to work today. Nobody's calling insec. They can't wait to go back to work. ⁓ because of the adrenaline is still there. That inspiration of doing good work is still there. ⁓ and so ⁓ it's it's it's lack of absenteeism. It ⁓ you mentioned ⁓ applicants, that's a big one. ⁓ now ⁓ fire departments get applications all the time, but internal to the department, you could always look at a crew that's inspired because how many transfer requests George R Dovolis: Mm. Mark: are to get off the crew and how many transfer requests are to come join your crew. And so it's always a wonderful compliment to the team and the work that they do, not me, that somebody wants to transfer and join our team because they want to be a part of the work that they are doing without me taking any of the credit. George R Dovolis: ⁓ Scott Brandt: Mm. George R Dovolis: Mm. Yes. Yes. Scott Brandt: So I thought about that highlighting another partner of ours, Doctor Joey. If you have a team and they're stuck or you are a business owner, you're stuck at half a million to three million in revenue, Doctor Joey really works with you to help you out overcome whatever it is that's George R Dovolis: Wow. Scott Brandt: Keeping you stuck. Teams are important because if your team isn't performing, that's impacting you as a business. And we know the more revenue that we have that's coming in, the more impact that we can create. So if you're stuck, your team is stuck, and you just don't know what to do, reach out to Dr. Joey in the show notes. There will be a link to schedule your call. And that's really Dr. Joey's zone of genius to help you overcome that. So that way you're you're empowered as a business owner to do what you need to do. And it's very interesting because Tony Gonzalez, I know he Runs this podcast anymore, but I think his earlier episodes, he had talked about how coaches would yell at everyone. And he's like, For me, that's not how I operate. So I would go pull the coach to the side and hey, if you really want me to interact and do what I need you to do, you need to pull me to the side and talk to me one-to-one. This yelling, screaming doesn't do it for me. And so it is a very interesting thing how Mark: Yes. Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: leaders don't take the time to figure out who each person is as an individual because what works for one person may not work for this other person. This person may be driven by more money, but this person may be driven by having more time with their family. And so there's a lot of leaders that want to stick everybody in the box because it's so much easier. That means less brain power that they have to use. And then they're like, okay, here we go. Everybody here and it's like you can't do that because we're all individual. We're all unique. Mark: Mm-hmm. George R Dovolis: Mm-hmm. No. Scott Brandt: And if you don't understand that person and what really drives them, you're gonna lose them. But that's a lot of time and effort because you're having to take the time to know each individual. And it it's a sad thing to see how leaders just throw everybody in a box and then they're like, all right, here we go. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yes, ⁓ so when I came on, we still had a lot of the we had some some newer managers, ⁓ that that came from a more modern time. We still had some people that kind of came up in the fire service in the early sixties to where back then nearly one hundred percent of their employees were former would did four years in the army, four years in the navy, were deployed, not deployed, whatever it might be, and they came out, they had no other job skills. They got put through a basic EMT class. Nobody else hires basic EMTs. It's not a job skill you could take anywhere else in the world. So they knew they had them and they could lead through browbeating and intimidation because they knew there was nowhere else they could go. I have come to find out in a modern workplace, in terms of management theory, Maslow's hierarchy of needs is so exactly correct. It's as if the Dude was right inside my fire station predicting everything that was going to happen. It's so real. Everybody's got their own motivation. And yes, as the boss, you gotta you gotta learn your team and see what they need. Because almost all the time I found a problem with poor performance. It was almost never the worker. It was almost always a distraction. And if I could find out what the distraction is, I could be their advocate to the administration and provide them some help. George R Dovolis: Mm. you Mark: remove that distraction. I could change some assignments and give them some more time ⁓ to make some phone calls to home or to deal with a sick relative, whatever it might be. But some everybody's needs are different. The young guy needs the job and the money. I get it. The tenure guy wants to start having some buy in and be empowered. And the senior person getting close to retirement wants to feel truly, truly valued in the workplace. And so yeah, the needs change over time. George R Dovolis: you That was one of my questions. How do you inspire individuals who are tired, stressed, frustrated, and just really burnt out? And as a leader, how do you handle, and you just talked about it, but in more detail, how do you handle when people are going through those different things, especially frustrated and stressed and burnt out, just want to quit? Mark: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Burnout is a thing in the fire servant. It's almost always on the EMS and call volume side of the equation. So my station would do 20 to 25 calls a day, and there's 75% medical runs. And less than half of them, less than half are serious. Some are s actual sick people who do need help, but George R Dovolis: Yeah. Wow. Mark: For some reason they didn't want to go to a doctor's office, but that's okay. We're gonna get them some help. And then you get a few people that are just legitimately abusing the 911 system. Or we've got a homeless population and they're just calling because they have nothing else to do, and we're just giving rides to people to the ER circling around all day so they can get sandwiches. so for us, managing the stress of the job comes from that, rarely from the critical incidents. When George R Dovolis: Mmm. Mark: It's the serious run, there's ⁓ an adrenaline that goes with that. And there's also a reward that comes with knowing that we helped somebody. So there's less burnout from the serious stuff. As a boss, we have to manage the workload. Cause I just can't have the same guy balancing the workload where he's on the back of the ambulance doing the re he's the report writer, and then all of a sudden I didn't notice and he's now been on the back. George R Dovolis: Mmm, yes. Mark: 15 days in a row and he his eyes are about to bug out because he can't stare at the stupid computer anymore. ⁓ so I've got to be aware. So I talk a lot about that in the book. You've got to be present as a leader. If you're the boss who goes and hangs in the office all day and delegates everything, well it's good you're not micromanaging, but you could overcook it. And so yeah, if you're just never around, ⁓ that's when problems creep up. George R Dovolis: Well, you know, when you get new leaders in, what would you teach a new a what does a new leader need to learn before they start leading everyone else? Mark: I've always thought they got to be good at the job first. So if you want to be the boss, be a good worker and be a good teammate years before you promote up. And that's where ⁓ I give the two of you credit running entrepreneurial startup companies and then having to learn those jobs yourself and then just hire a bunch of people years down the road. I had time to make mistakes and have a senior partner and George R Dovolis: Yes. Mark: Go on medical runs, then I start going on more fire calls and car accidents. Now I'm on the fire truck and the ladder truck or the engine and the ladder truck a little bit more. So I'm expanding my role over the course of 10 years. Then at year 10, I started driving the fire truck. And then I drove the fire truck for a couple of years. And then at year 15, now I'm getting close to making lieutenant. And that was the year that I was promoted. So by that time, I didn't have to beg people to respect my job skills. I didn't have to demand their respect. I just went about my job and then hopefully my work spoke for itself. George R Dovolis: That's amazing. And I got to ask you because people always want to know if I was sitting here and I was 17, 18 years old, and I want to be in the fire department, I want to be a fireman, what would you say to that individual, a young listener that is in their 20s, or 18 or whatever age want to go into the department? What would be the best thing to do? Mark: ⁓ one, I would say do it. It's a great job. like I said, we're never gonna be rich, but you'll be taken care of. It's a good living. ⁓ get into a municipal fire department, whether it's a big city or a suburb, because ⁓ there you're doing fire accidents and EMS calls. But it starts with EMT and paramedics. So I would go to a community college, get an EMT license, go work at a private ambulance company. George R Dovolis: Okay. Mark: Do some transfers, ⁓ go work in an ER as a tech, maybe and then go back to school, get your paramedic license. It's about a three year commitment. And then once you get that paramedic license, work in the private field a little bit, build up that resume. at any point in time, you could just go to a trade school or a community college and get a fire academy. just you pay for it yourself because the suburbs will expect you to have all of your certs in hand before you pick up the application. George R Dovolis: Yeah. Mark: So but if you're Detroit, Chicago, New York, Houston, they have they're so big that you could just come right out of high school. They have an in-house training academy. But so whichever way you want to go, you want to go big city or suburb, ⁓ I would highly recommend it. It's a wonderful career. But yeah, if I would I would get right out of high school, get into a community college that's got a basic EMT program and just start with that. George R Dovolis: ⁓ that's great information. And you know, I always asked the last thing in the sense is, at the end of the time, when the Lord takes you home, what does your what do you want to see your legacy be like? Mark: ⁓ I'd always thought that it would be I made a difference as a firefighter and we saved lots of lives and I was out there on the front lines doing it, and I've I've softened that because so so much of it is just coincidence of who's working on the day something terrible happens. ⁓ so much of it is truly just a barrage of routine medical runs. ⁓ so I've I've now l I was able to leave the career with the satisfaction of hoping that I left the workplace better than I found it. And so the the young people that are coming up behind me learned how to treat people with respect, how to be a listener as a leader. Listening is so important. And ⁓ how to empower their teams and truly care and be empathetic. George R Dovolis: Awesome, that was amazing. Scott Brandt: So Mark, I know you've talked about the book a little bit. ⁓ so if people wanted to go deeper, learn more about what you do, you have your book. ⁓ so where would that be for individuals to go check that out? Mark: Amazon and Barnes and Noble. It's called Leading Through the Heat. ⁓ and to touch on something George said about leading by example, don't ask your crew to do anything you're not gonna do. That is actually a picture of me on the front cover. ⁓ so it is me Yeah. And it just totally worked out. ⁓ I have my partner behind me coming with the chainsaw. I said, Here, let me cut a little pilot hole. And so I went ahead of him to sound out the roof for safety and then George R Dovolis: That is, that's awesome. Mark: ⁓ a little vent point ignition happened and then I stepped aside, he comes in and is able to make a bigger cut. But ⁓ that was one thing I wanted to h hammer that point home of lead by example is I wanted the the any of the artwork on the book to be me for real, no posed photographs, no staged ⁓ photographs. Scott Brandt: Hmm. That's awesome. George R Dovolis: That so cool. That is amazing. Scott Brandt: And one thing too, as you're listening to it, even with Mark writing this from kind of a perspective of the fire field, really if you have an open mind, there's things that you can learn, pick up a perspective from somebody else that you can implement into whatever career you're in. And so that's one thing I highly suggest when you're reading different books, just come with an open mind and then say, okay, what can I take from this? What's a nugget that I can take from this? Go forward with it, implement, and then come back and see what other nuggets you might not have been aware of. So ⁓ but other than that, we appreciate you guys coming along on the journey with us, allowing us to be part of your journey. And it does go to as you're ending here listening that if you're stuck, if you're trying to do everything on your own and you're setting your ways, that's not doing anything good for you. So you really want to say, okay, what is it that I'm strong in? And then build around yourself with people that have strengths that complement your weaknesses. And then if you're looking for these types of videos, hit the subscribe button, and we'll catch you on the next episode. George R Dovolis: Thank you.