Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Col. Vijay Chadda on Leadership Lessons from a Life of Service (#021)

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Col. Vijay Chadda on Leadership Lessons from a Life of Service (#021) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: When you go now and you believe that people, you know, not because you're CEO, but they welcome you and they value you still, right?
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: And they ring you up for advice, whether if it's from the army or from the industry, right?
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_03: I would believe that uh what you've left behind is a legacy.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: If that is positive and you made a difference in people's lives, that that really is success.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Hey everyone.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to a brand new episode of Contramines.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: In this episode, I are in Contraction.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Kernel Chand Vijay Chandra.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Great to have you as a guest and thanks for taking time to talk to us, sir.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Swami.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Vignesh.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: Just Vijay will do.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's uh Vijay Chandra is just very I'm the official title.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm very happy to be called Vijay, and uh and thank you so much for having me here and giving me an opportunity to share my thoughts.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh thanks, uh thanks, Vijay.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I want to start this conversation, Vijay, with uh something that I saw you talk about and uh uh which I found very inspiring, which is in 1968 you actually went into the NDA, right?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: And uh uh you know what were the learnings that something you had there for life that you then had, you know, you followed it throughout your career.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: So what was it like at the NDA and what are the learnings that you had for life?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, 1968, that's 53 years ago.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean, you know, in those days, uh, you know, we really didn't have too many career choices.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: When you're in school, you know, you you either aspire to become a doctor or an engineer, right?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: Or you you know look at going into the armed forces or you know, the government service.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: There even the uh aspirants for ISIFS were were actually lesser in number.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: It was uh the bright ones became doctors and engineers, and then you know it was the armed forces and NDA was you know where you appeared in school.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, it was one of those macho things.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: So from our batch, I think we had quite a I mean we have we were in a co edge school in Delhi.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't have anyone in the armed forces, I mean, from my family that way.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: My grandfather was uh in the British Indian Army, but I mean I never knew him.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: He died before I was born.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I just you know went went to appear for the NDA examination with a whole bunch of guys, got selected and uh you know uh landed up in NDA.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: But when you say, what did it do to me?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think uh age 16, you pass out of NDA at 19 and then you go to your respective academies, whether Air Force, Army, or Navy, to do your final training before you become a commissioned officer.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I joined the army, so I went to Terradoon.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: But I think those three years in NDA made a boy into a man, right?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: Clearly.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: It gave us everything.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: I I would I would say that, you know, like when you all go to college, you remember your alma mater, your graduation degree.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: So, along with our academics, we did whole whole host of other stuff around you know the armed forces training, physical, weapon training, etc.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: etc.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: But more importantly, you know, the instilling of values, the uh you know the grooming, telling you what needs to be done.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's it's an it's an outstanding institution.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's uh it's something where I believe every youngster should go and spend one year, the first and second term.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, your life will change.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's one of the finest institutions in the world.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, hats off to those who built it in India.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's what has been the you know uh bedrock of our armed forces.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's produced officers for generations, right?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: And uh the spirit, the camaraderie that it builds up is unbelievable.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, it's it's it's like like the alumni of uh of a great school, you know, that kind of bonding which you don't find anywhere else.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: So so it's not only that it made you physically stronger, it made you mentally stronger, it it gave you you know your value systems in life, it taught you so much.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that really is what uh primed me for life, if I may say that.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: So when you really say every angster should go through this, what really was the discipline and regimen that you thought uh was something that left an indelible memory in what uh you carried forward in life?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: You see, clearly, one of course there are learnings in terms of you know how do you adhere to discipline, a code of conduct, most importantly, right?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: A regimen, right?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: But more importantly, the uh the uh spirit of camaraderie that it builds, and the fact that you know they push you to extremes, and and then you realize that you know there is nothing that you can't do.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, the weakest of people also become strong because of the of the training.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: So, really, you know, what it does to the mind is amazing.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: So it gives you a sense of discipline, it gives you a sense of ethos.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, there is you know the patriotism that it instills in you because you see so much of what your you know your predecessors have done and contributed to the nation, what's taught to you.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I mean it's it's it's a kind of an overall grooming and you know uh development of your personality as an individual.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about the armed forces or anything else, it's about you know what it does to you, gives you as an individual.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, what are the leadership traits?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you are somebody who uh you know who was in the armed forces for 20 years, then you moved to a corporate job, uh, you know, and uh in the travel and hospitality industry.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you are somebody who transitioned like what you call from the uh you know from the army to the CV street that you talk about, right?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, uh what are the leadership traits that you learned at the NDA, at the military, which you applied in your corporate job, which uh which is something that you're very proud about?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_03: You see, uh possibly this is not what many people would talk about, but I would believe that leadership, wherever you may be, right?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's the same.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: Leadership is leadership, right?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: You've got to you've got to lead your teams, you've got to lead your people, right?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: So while they say that no, in the army leadership is different because you know you give a word of command and they're supposed to obey that word of word of command, right?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that is just one part of leadership, right?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: The other part of leadership is where people will follow you with blind faith.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: That is a leadership that you've got to build, and that's a trust that you've got to gain by what you do.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's leadership in battle when you say, okay, follow me, guys, and they know that we are many of us are going to get shot, some of us will not be alive, right?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's where everyone follows, right?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: But for that to come on a day-to-day basis, right, you've got to get accepted as a leader.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: And it's about how you lead your people, how they see you.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: What I was taught was that one, you know, we say in the army, we say the Indian Army always leads from the front.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: And statistics also define that because when you look at the casualties that we've suffered in our wars, in Kargil, in Sri Lanka, in in counter-insurgency, right?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: Wherever.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: The officer-to-man ratio of casualties in the Indian Army is probably the highest in the world.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: That shows that our our our officers lead from the front, right?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing is as a leader, you know, you don't ask someone to do what you yourself would not do.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: And the third and most important trait is integrity, transparency, and honesty.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: You want to gain the trust of your people, right?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to be willing to learn.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: You just because you're a leader doesn't mean that you know everything.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: You have the ability to lead, probably it's an authority invested in you.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: Even in corporate, when I became a CEO, I mean I was a CEO, so you damn well listen to me.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean I'm your boss, right?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: But I landed up in corporate as a green horn.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, I will I've used to dabble in the share market.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: I used to read about read the economic times, I had to read news.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: In those days, nothing was online.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: You read magazines and you know, you you read newspapers, right?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: So you had some idea.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: I had a, I mean, uh, I would say I was I was numerate, right?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: I won't say I was a financial whisky, but uh, but I understood finances, right?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_03: But uh most importantly, I had to learn everything from scratch, right?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: So how do you do that?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: There you are.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: You're the you're the I mean in those days a general manager.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: Now you call they transition to being called you know presidents or CEOs and or whatever, but there you are, you're the number one guy there, right?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: And there are a host of businesses which are there, all of which you got to learn from scratch.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, of course, before we joined, because I was joining in a company and I was recruited.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: So I did an induction of a week in each business, right?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: So whereas DHL was one of our divisions, so uh I went with the Korea boys to deliver packages, I went to the operation center to see how how packages are dealt with, I went to the airport to see how how loads are uh, etc.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: etc.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: You went you went to the customs clearance wing to see how cargo is cleared, etc.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: So while you do all that, but when you sit down to run business and you give instructions, and when you're going to start questioning people who are actually the the leaders of the business, yeah, so how do you do that?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: So that was the greatest challenge.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, how do you adapt yourself to being a leader and yet not being ashamed of saying, guys, I need to learn and you you've got to teach me, right?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: I will teach you some things that you probably don't know, but I will learn a lot from you also.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: So the the the ability to to uh to to uh accept that yes, there are things that I don't know, and I need to learn that is also one of the very important traits for each.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, the most important thing is is the the ability to identify and utilize talent that you have at your disposal.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's a that's a great answer, Kradhra Chadha.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think as a follow-up, I would like to ask that you know, based on what you just described, leadership almost seems like a fine line between being empathetic and being decisive.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, based on your own background, being in the armed forces and um you know transitioning into CBC, um, what are some things that you had to unlearn and you had to relearn to actually ensure that as a culture the values are upheld and uh you're also growing in the right direction?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: So so to be to be honest, Vignesh, like I said earlier also, you know, I did not find the transition in terms of leadership very difficult because I didn't have any major issues on which one had to compromise.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: People leader, you come out from the armed forces and you come to CV Street, you've got to compromise.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: I don't believe that that I had to really sit down and you know grapple with my value system.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: Husseiki, you know, this is going to be a I knew it's gonna be a big change.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: I knew that things are gonna be different.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the armed forces any longer, right?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: In the armed forces you have a degree of protection.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: Here you're on your own.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: If I've been given a job, I can lose that job also, right?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I've got to deliver, right?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: And uh one really did not have to make many compromises.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: My leadership style did not change, right?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe I had to understand that I have got to, you know, it's not only all about authority, it's also about, you know, uh leadership through different ways.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, authority always remains because you you've been designated leader, right?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: But uh it doesn't need to be authorit authoritarian.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: And and between decisive and empath empath empathy, right?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: I don't believe you know there is a choice to be made.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: As a leader, you always need to have empathy and you have to be decisive.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: You're made a leader because ultimately you know it's a decision that you take which will make a difference.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you you would get involved when there are key operations happening and you would you know oversee implementation, but someone else is implementing on ground, right?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: But the key thing, whether in war or in business, right, is the decision that a leader takes and how he carries forwards that decision, right?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: And empathy is a must because everywhere you know you're dealing with human beings, right?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: Today, of course, there's a machine component also to leadership.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: But when I came came to the to CV Street from the army, it was it was still all human beings.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: Computers were relatively few and unknown, and you know, they were in a different room with an air conditioner, right?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: And they were there for data whenever you sought it.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: It was not part of our lives that like we're using it today, right?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: But clearly, people are people, right?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: Even if you're in the army, we have to remember that our wives, children, families are civilians, right?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: You get posted to a Delhi or a Bombay, you live outside, you're still dealing with people outside.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: You still have those problems, right?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not that you're always insulated, right?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know what's going on outside, you know that that there are areas where you know your telephone line is not working in those days.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, telephone was a big thing, you people probably will not know, but you know, 80s, 90s, you couldn't get a phone connection for uh uh for the love of life, you know.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: If you had a phone connection, you were a VIP.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_03: And if that doesn't work, the the MTNL guy, the telephone guy, if he had to come, right?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, until unless you uh gave him some gratification, you're not gonna set your phone right.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: So those kind of things would happen because you want your phone to work, right?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: So so nothing should actually shock you, right?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because you knew that these things happen.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's a question of how you use it, right?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: Do you use it to run your business?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: Are you breaking are you breaking law?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Are you conforming to rules and regulations?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I made it a point that you know we will not compromise on on rules and regulations, we'll not compromise on personal integrity, right?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: And when we run business also, we will not compromise on trust with our customers and with our people, right?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: But do you have to, you know, did I did I not know that my customs clearance team, right?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I didn't know how to handle it, right?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: That uh they said just sign chits for expense because they had to bribe those guys who are doing clearance, right?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: The standard job.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: No, I don't know.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: I can't I have to trust them.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: Are they actually paying that money?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: Where is it going?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because I would check with people, find out what's happening.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: So either I stop business or allow it to happen.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: So what I would do is that you know it's stupid, but say how do I do it?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: Delegate it, give it to the accounts team, say there's there has to be at least internally some transparency.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: That is whether this is where the money is going, this is where people are recommending.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's not that you know we are being taken for a ride.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: So in those days, whether it was a travel business or a cargo business, fairly poor.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of airlines would give you would give you kickbacks in cash.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I said, How do we do it?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: They said, no, we won't give check.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: So I told the uh my uh CFO or head you know the head of finance that please keep a a notebook which which could have killed us ignored and whenever you know appoint a committee to take cognizance of it and then destroy it, you know, so that you have it's it's not just one person handling it, right?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: So there is it's it's the organization which is handling it because and when I'm talking airlines, I'm talking of international airlines, too.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: That was a norm.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: So what do you do?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, was that right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that was right, but all those things change over a period of time.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like in today's world, governance is a different story.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: In those days, governance was another story.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Which uh, as a follow-up, uh, I would like to take you back to 1997, uh, which was a major turning point uh in your life, and which I believe you have stated that has changed that did change your life forever.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to know, can you tell our listeners what happened and what went through your mind during that time and what were some of the goals that you set for yourself then and how they played out today?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: 1997 is talking about the time when I donated that car, right?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: Which I won.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, correct, correct.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, okay, all right.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, this was a we used to we used to have these travel industry conventions, which were big ones always, and a lot of fun partying, you know, good times.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: And in in one of those conventions, I was suddenly told that you know you're being called on stage because you won this car, and I said, I couldn't believe it because I'd never won anything in my life.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: Even if I'm one of two, you pull out a shit, you know, it can't be me.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: So some of the other conventions I was convinced that no, there's something wrong.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's because uh you know the the sponsors vehemently deny it, but I believe that I was being given that prize and I didn't want to take it.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's there that I asked them this question that you know, say supposing I don't uh want this and I don't want the car, will you give me cash in lieu of car?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, of course, no problem.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: Then of course I had to, my wife was there, I had to talk to her.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: We came back home with two daughters, so we said, look, we want this car.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: It was an air-conditioned Maruti in those days, 97.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean that was uh I mean almost a top end kind of car, you know, and and worth over close to two and a half lakhs.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: So so I so I I I I told the kids that look there's something wrong, and you know, I think you know at least they're giving us money, so let's keep half the money and you know we can uh donate the other half to the money.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: So far as I convinced them.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: Then suddenly they said, Why half?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: If you're not happy, then you know let us let us donate the full car.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: The whole you know the family came on board and they said, Let's uh give this to charity.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: So that's when we started looking, when you give it to charity what to do.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: That we started looking at, and I said, My my heart is in you know uh education of underprivileged children.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: I do believe that that's an area where all of us need to help.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where the donations went in two tranches, you know, and uh we decided to donate that money.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: That actually you know opened my eyes in the sense that you know you can make a difference to people's lives.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: So it took a couple of years more when I became financially comfortable and and felt that you know uh it's time that now I started uh you know doing something to give back in near full time, right?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I was trying to do it on my own, but then the Bharati Foundation opportunity came, which was a a lottery again.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like I said, life is all about lotteries, you know.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: I spoke about it's the lottery of birth as to where we all are born, which you know makes all the difference, and then that's what I say that for people who've been born in the wrong place.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: We we we all have to make to uh may work hard to ensure that they are not denied the privileges that we got in terms of uh education.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's what's going to make a difference, that's what's going to give them the opportunities in life.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why I believe that you know primary schooling, government schooling, you know, access and quality is so very important.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: That you know, millions of kids who are denied that schooling, you know, look at what they're losing out in life.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: Why should they not have an equal opportunity to everyone else?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's What needs to be done.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what it is.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: And rest is all a matter of chance, matter of luck.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, a job like Bhati Foundation, where I would have done for free, and Sunil, my boss, Mr.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: Sunil Mittal, said, Vijay, you always say Vijay took such a huge salary cut to come and do this.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: I said, Sunil, you've paid me a salary which was more than what I ever expected.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: I would do this for free.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I was still very, very fortunate that you could do so much good and yet get paid for it and run an organization be part of corporate.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: So Vijay, uh, you talk about uh the school education in our country, and uh you you have said that you know it is in a crisis, critically ill in an ICU, uh requires life support.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, can you elaborate more on this?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, given the fact that you ran such a huge institution with across six states.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, what ails school education and what are the challenges?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: You see, I think we have lots of things around school education, and unfortunately, you know, I still believe that you know we are we're not doing enough to set it right.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: So there are the very fancy schools, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: To which a mini school you know, percentage of our population can get in or can afford to pay, right?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: Then there are private schools, so to say, where a lot of people pay and they give uh you know a top dollar to put their children in that school, right?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's uh 75 around percent of our schools which are in the government system, where the majority of children are you know uh in our country go to.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: So when you look at the quality of schooling right across, including the top four schools, I do believe it is what it is, but you know, there you can still get through because you know the quality schools still have a lot going for them.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: There are still good teachers and bad teachers, right?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: There are still parents who can give a lot of inputs to their children.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: Children, you know, in these private schools in big seasonal children go for tuition, they do this.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: There are lots of ways in which their you know uh lack of right things happening in the school gets made up.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: It cannot happen in the government schools.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: The school is not good enough, the parents there are you know they are earning a livelihood.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: Besides, most of the kids are first generation learners, so parents cannot give them those kind of inputs at home.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: So where do they go?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: And uh what is a problem?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the teaching profession, the quality of teachers that we have in our country, right?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: I would believe a teaching profession has should be right on top.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: But unfortunately, teaching is a fallback profession.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: There are very few who come to teaching because of their love for teaching or their wanting to become a teacher, right?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: There are.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying there's no one.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: But basically, it's because of lack of other options or because this is an easy option for for a wife who's married and does a B yet, the husband is working, so I can teach, my children can go to school with me, various other reasons.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: Government teachers, great job.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Government teachers are probably, you know, of course, there are a lot of temporary teachers, but the permanent government teachers are very well paid nowadays in comparison to other private school teachers.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: They are amongst the highest paid, leave aside the elite schools, government teachers are highest paid.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: So there's no reason, and yes, yes, absolutely.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: And the selection system is not easy.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: So definitely there are a lot of good teachers in the system, but somehow, the way we are organized and structured, the majority of schools are not running the way they should.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: The schools are dysfunctional, it cannot happen.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: There are some states which are doing better than others, and within that, there are some schools which are doing better than others.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: So there are a lot of government schools which are very good.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: I think you know you look at Delhi government schools.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: When I was in school, a lot of toppers used to come from the Delhi government schools.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: The current government there, I mean, I'm not a political guy, I don't I don't you know support anyone, I have no issues with anyone because for me, politicians are the same.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: But since we worked with them, I do believe that the Delhi government, current government, has done a lot of good work with the government schools, right?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: So, and in Kerala, a state like Kerala, it was always good.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: Hemachal was a good state.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there are a lot of states which are doing good work.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: There are a lot of schools within other states where you know schools are running well, but every government school needs to run well, and every government school should at least give adequate quality.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: When I say adequate quality, it means I mean, both of you, I mean, I now have grandchildren or my grandchildren, we should be happy to send our grandchildren to the government school, to the neighborhood school.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: As opposed to, you know, you know, going to a Dune school or a Sannar or a Modern School or uh you know Sri Ram school in Delhi or you know Don Bosco or St.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: Xavier and stuff like that.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: Why not?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's possible.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: So if we put pressure and government schools start working, and people can send the children to government schools, look at the load it would take off.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: One, look at the benefit that would accrue, because the majority of children will start getting good basic school education.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: That would mean that they would be primed to explore opportunities in life.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: Even in villages, you'll be surprised.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: Poor parents, those who can't afford, just because a school calls itself private and English medium and the kid has to wear a tie, they send the child there to pay a thousand rupees a month and not to the government school, even though the meet the quality of instruction would be equally bad.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's a private school.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: Why should they do that?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: Look at the amount of money which can then be saved and used for other purposes.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: Look at cities, even even in uh in a Mumbai, in a Delhi, in a Calcutta, in Hyderabad, Bangalore, Chennai, Lucknow, you know, A B cities.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: There are enough and more parents who are uh what do you say, uh depriving themselves or their families of something to pay the children's school fees.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: If they can save that school fee, send the kid to a neighborhood school knowing fully well that is assured this you know the same quality of education.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: It may not be a dune school, may not be a mod school, but at least a B-grade public school, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: If you can assure that, and and that's what you know most parents are getting, right?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: And you get that in a government school or better, and the system puts pressure for those schools to perform, look at the difference that can be made.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: This is a it's a long process, there's no overnight solution, right?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: People say simple things I love, guys, I'll heard saying, make it mandatory that every government official has to send their ward to a government school.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: Think of a district uh a district magistrate sitting you know in uh in any district, and his or her son or daughter goes to that government school, right?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: In that district chosen, the ADM, the district magistrate, the Tessildar, the Sarpanch.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: Can you imagine that government school not functioning?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: We have access, we have schools, government schools are on enough land, infrastructure is there, teachers need to be there, they need to be made to come to school, right?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: And they need to be made to teach and perform and be made accountable.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: So at every level, if if if Sarkari, Off Sarka, Bacha, central school is a government school.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: They work so well, right?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: There's so many other versions of government schools which are running, right?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: Which do well.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: So why can't a normal government school do well?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: So we have to work to change that.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's the only, I mean, I believe that's the only answer for our nation because you start doing that, the children have access to schools, they have access to quality education, they can make their lives, right kind of instruction happening in schools, they become aware.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's the way for the nation to change, not not the way we are going.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: I think we need to at least the 2080 ratio of government schools today, 20% working, 80% not working, that has to change to 80-20.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that's my belief.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I believe that everyone can make a difference.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: So when when people say, okay, what should we do?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: I want to start a school in a village, I tell them don't start.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: See, go to your village, interact with the government school, see what you can do to make that government school better.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: Because everything that we do as individuals, we can't assure sustainability.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: But a government system is an institution, right?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: And that can run forever.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: Even a Bahati Foundation, a Tata Trust, and all you can do only this much if you want to do sustainability forever, but you can't impact the masses.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: To impact the masses, we have to look at how we can make you know the government system work.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you are somebody uh you know uh who adopted almost 1300 government schools, and uh you know uh you started bringing that change.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: So you're not somebody who just talks about it, but you actually went out and did it.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, what are the challenges that did you face there?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: And tell us some uh interesting uh you know uh tips for actually saying how should it be done?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: You are somebody who's done it.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: So one is you know, we were we didn't adopt these hundred you know, thousand plus schools.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: This is what we call you know the quality support program that the foundation runs along with government schools, right?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: So adoption is a different thing where you know you take over a school, right?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: We didn't take over school.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: We did initially take over 49 schools in uh the district of uh in Ameir in uh in Rajasthan, right?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: Where we took over the buildings, we put in our teachers and ran those schools for close to 12 years.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: And we did believe that that was not the right way to go because you've got to make the government system work.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: You can't bring in your own system to say we'll run the government system.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: So that is a quality support program where we started program with school to institute best practices in those schools.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: So engage with the principals, with the school leaders, first with the state administration to tell them as to what we can do, share our program with them, and then talk to the school leaders to see you know how they would be willing to join this program.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: Some of whom would join, then we run pilot programs, and then we see more and more schools becoming part of this.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: So this is just a transfer of best practices.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: And what do you mean by best practices here actually?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: Things which are happening in normal schools don't happen in government schools.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: Simple things like the library is working, the computer center is working, teachers come on time, parents get involved, community gets involved, the toilets work, there's a games and sports period, there are children who are involved, there are teachers who are responsible for various things, you form clubs in school, you take them for little outdoor activities, etc.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: etc.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: You get them interested in science.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: So, all things which are normal to us in regular schools and which are not happening in government school, bring that in first.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then look at competency enhancements.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: Never go and tell teachers we'll train you.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: But if teachers say that we require training in this, this area, then you organize that kind of training.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: Schools don't have enough teachers, then you take it up with state administration that why do you know the school needs a science teacher?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: This class 10 doesn't have a you know, physics teacher, doesn't have a math teacher, make sure that you know the vacancies get filled, make sure that parent-teacher meetings happen, right?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_03: And these are little things that even the Delhi government focused on.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: That's the reason why we start to work with them because the mindset and approach was the same that you've got to support the government schools to make them work, and it has to become part of their life.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: The school has to become a matter of pride for the children, for the teachers, for the communities, right?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: And that's how it'll carry on becoming good.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a it's a process of revival, it's a process of resurrection, it's a process of you know ingraining what is right and what is wrong, and gradually getting all teachers to become part of it.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: Today, I mean, uh, a lot of teachers actually couldn't care because they get salary, no one can take away their salary.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: They're doing so many things outside the school, and in the villages, you'll find a lot of proxy teachers coming in in school.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, and uh so you earn 80,000 a month, but you pay 5,000 a month to some youngster who's standing in for you.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: And the school administrative setup is such that you know no one can be there everywhere.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: Tomorrow, when you have technology, you have you know uh cameras in each classroom and all, I don't know, things may change, but you know, there are there are huge issues which are there that can only be set right by the local people.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: In you know, why shouldn't why shouldn't a serpanch in every village you know be proud of the school that she or he has and try and make that the best school in the country, the best government school in the country.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's kind of motivation which needs to come.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: And this quality improvement program, while a foundation may do 100,000 schools, some may do 100 schools, you know, individuals can do one school.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: Small, you know, factories can do two schools, like your factories in a village, and then you have a government school there.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: Instead of a factory setting up a school for its own employees' children, why not work with the government school to make that good enough for your employee children to study there and get quality education?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: Easier said than done, but this is the kind of stuff that we need to see happening all across if we want to bring about systemic change.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: During our research uh preparing for this interview, we came across a statement that you had made, which is which goes like this I will not allow what is not in my control to prevent me from doing what is in my control.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you apply this principle in the work that you do?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Can you can you share some examples with us?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, surely one one this this this uh you know phrase is not mine, it belongs to a very dear friend of mine.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: And uh he's the one who shared it with me.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: You know, his name is Yahur Beg, and he's a great guy.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: He's a HR professional.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: We had colleagues once, and he writes books and he's a trainer and you know, he lectures in Hyderabad between Hyderabad and the US.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: So Yahweh told me that and it's stuck.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it just says that you know, we whenever we say that, you know, like when I talk about the school that you need to get, people say, No, I can't do this because you know the government doesn't support, you know, I can't do this because my neighbor is not doing this, because the policeman doesn't help me.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there are so many things which we blame on the system, and we say because the system doesn't support us and we can't make a difference.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: And what this says is that at least why not do what you can do, right?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: So, uh, I mean, just to give you an example, the the other day here we where I live in Noida, we have a lot of U-turns created, and there are enough and more cars and motorbikes which will take the wrong U-turn because they want to save 500 meters and not take the next U-turn.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I stopped at one two top guys to say, Why are you doing this?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, why don't you go there?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: Some people turn on and abuse you, some listen to you, that it's only half a kilometer, and you'll save your own life.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: You might meet with an accident, you might you're creating trouble for yourself.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: Then I saw a police car standing there, and uh I got those guys down and spoke to them, and they said, We've tried it, it never works, so I had to give them the same lecture.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: I said, just because you tried it once and it doesn't work, even if you change two people out of ten, you're making a difference.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: We need to continue to make a difference, right?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: When we are when we are managing garbage, throwing garbage that my neighbor is not throwing it, but why should I throw it right?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, this is for those little things that we can do.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, you can take it to systemic changes also, right?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: There are things which are in your control, so it depends on where you are, right?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: If I was a secretary somewhere you know in the government of India, I have much more powers to change.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm just a simple individual living in a flat or a house in a locality, there's only that much I can do within my.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm the president of RWA, I can do so much more.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: So within your own sphere of influence, right, there are things you can do, and there are things which will go wrong in case you don't do those things, right?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: So at least do the things that you can do, right?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_03: And don't say that I must wait for things to change before I start doing what is right.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: So that that that is clearly the you know uh the underlying current of the of this phrase.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: If I can make a difference, why won't I do it?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_03: Someone, you know, by the way, when I when I stopped the car, my daughter and wife were in the car with me, they got very upset with me.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: Why are you doing it?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: If this guy turned around and hit you, what would you have done?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: You're old, you know, you think you're a hero.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this, that.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to undergo all that, right?
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_03: But I felt that it needed to be done, so I did that.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, and I think everywhere where we believe something is wrong and we can set right, each one of us must step out and do a bit.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to spend some time on uh you know, you talked about this government schools and adopting, or you know, not the word adoption, but best practices sharing.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so uh what stops it from scaling it?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know what I see all the time is somebody somebody does it in one state in a couple of hundred schools.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but just to give you a perspective, we've got 15 million children uh in the elementary uh education in our country.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, two one and a half million schools out of the probably one point million schools.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: Probably very very high, very high.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: Give me some examples of in the second party schools and you know, in some of the collaborations that you did for best practices.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think uh, you know, if you were to say pick up these five six uh, you know, uh you know, drive us to change it, what would you think we need to do?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's a huge problem, right?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, yeah.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: So so one, you know, uh so I mean the magnitude of a problem because of COVID has now gone up manifold, by the way.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: No one is talking about it, but the fact that for close to two years children haven't been to school, whatever school, right?
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: We really don't know the enormity of the problem that we're going to have to deal with in terms of learning levels, in terms of the psych of children, in terms of you know how they are how how you're gonna you know bring them up to speed.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: We've spoken a lot about online learning.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_03: Schools say we're doing online learning, but we all know what you know how much of an impact online learning will have and would have had, right?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: And how many people have access.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: And if even if they have access, how many people, how many kids have actually been serious?
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: So so I've seen this happening because I'm involved with the school still.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm I'm chairman of modern school Bharakamba Road.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: We know what's happening in that school.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: I know I have grandchildren, I have kids all around, you know.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a it's a I mean, uh it's it's frightening actually.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, we're this is something that we'll have to cope with as a nation and as people, right?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: But leaving that aside, how do you scale?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a very relevant question that you've answered.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, thousand schools in the context of 1.2, 1.3 million government schools, nothing, right?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: How do you scale?
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: The only way that you can scale is by institutionalizing these processes.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: How do you institutionalize is by creating champions from within the government system, right?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: So while you may work with 200 schools in a state, 50 in you know, 10 districts, 500 schools, right?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_03: But then there has to be a desire on the part of that administration to create a team from within who will then take this to every government school because this has to become a movement.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_03: It cannot, I don't believe there is any private entity.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: While I keep saying that people need to get involved, we can do that, but that'll still be a drop in the ocean.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: But the government system needs to change.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: Someone somewhere needs to take cognizance of this fact.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I mean, you need to give it a thought, every government officer needs to send the child to a government school.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: Will that work?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: Is it doable?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: I would believe that that's that's possibly the simplest answer.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the SHO's son and daughter go to a school.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: I'll be damned if that school is not a great school.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know how can that school not be a good school?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: It may be a first year, it may take a couple of months, it may take a year, it may take two years, but he will between him and uh Civil administration guy, they will ensure that they get all the bloody government resources to pump into you know into that school to make that school worthwhile because their child is going to that school.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: So, so somewhere, something, some out-of-the-box solution has to come.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we're already too late.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: We're already too late because children they're missing education.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: That huge population of children is actually has actually lost the opportunity.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: They got to catch up.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: When are we going to stop playing catch up?
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_03: When we're going to give the kids a fair chance in life.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: It is something which should worry all of us.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm afraid to say that it does not seem to be worrying because I don't see this as part of any political political party's main plank of campaigning to say that I will improve government schools.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'll probably then fetch them votes, or that government schools need to function, right?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: Or I'll make sure that all every children, every child in this country gets quality education.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's one of the you know pillars of my campaign or of my party or the government that I will run.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's not happening, and why is it not happening?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: And if you can't fix primary education and school education, why talk about higher education?
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_03: In any case, the people who will become eligible for higher education are very small, right?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: That needs to be fixed also.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's a different issue altogether.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: How the higher education functions in our country, but at least basics to those.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the things uh you know, some uh you know some of the uh experts recommend is almost like saying uh take these government schools and build something called uh learning achievement contract model, which is like saying, you know, uh put something together where uh you know you uh you look at some kind of a learning outcome, look at incentivizing the government uh teachers, uh, you know, build uh uh you know a different pathway to actually doing this.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh have you seen any global examples of how uh this is done?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: And is there anything that we can pick up from there and adopt it here?
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_03: There are many such examples.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, in the USA there's something called charter schools, the UK has got a model also of stuff like that.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, one is making changes in the in the in the curriculum and in the methodology, etc.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_03: That can all happen, but for all that to happen, the schools need to work.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_03: We are dealing with a different problem altogether where by and large the schools are not working, right?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: They need to be the head teacher, the teachers need to be made accountable, children must come to school, we must have proper attendance, all teachers must be in school, teaching, learning must start happening.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's only then can you start working on upgrading quality?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: How can you work on quality when the majority of your schools are dysfunctional?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: So, my point is there.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, all this is very good.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, is there anything wrong with the national education policy?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think so.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone criticizes everything, there are some parts which can be changed, cannot be changed, each one has a different union education, right?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_03: But for all that to happen, right, you need to ensure that the schools are running and running well.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm now talking more about administration in those schools, right?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then we'll get on to the next step.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Can you please talk us through the current challenge that you have taken up, uh, which is the air pollution action group?
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, what are the problems that you're trying to solve there?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: Can you please talk a little bit about that?
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, surely.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I mean, I thought I should be retiring finally, but here I am for the last two years plus now part of Air Pollution Action Group, you know, which is a foundation set up by the founder is a gentleman called Ashish Dawan.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: And uh he was very passionate about this and spoke to me.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I have another colleague called Mohid Byotra, and we three of us spent about two months actually looking at the problem, you know, fake talking to various people, experts in the country, outside the country, seeing what's happening all over, you know, and realizing that this is a huge problem which is affecting all of us.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: We are all breathing this air, people in and around the NCR.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we are much worse off.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: People in Bombay, you have good days and bad days because you still have the benefit of being you know on the seaside.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: There are people you know in places which are you're lucky because of your geography, right?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_03: But majority of people are breathing air, which is actually killing them, right?
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's a it's it's a huge, huge issue, huge population.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's a huge problem for and and children are impacted.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if you look at the children, you know, the if you look at statistics, you know, the number of children who have a lung problem, who have asthma, who have breathing issues and all in a deli and NCR and you know in North Indian towns, it's unbelievable.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: We can't let that happen, right?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's a problem which has many dimensions.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_03: There's no one solution, right?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: The government has taken cognizance, the government has been talking about it.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_03: The government has something called the National Clean Plan, it's called NCAP, right?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: Based on that, every city has an action plan, a city action plan, right?
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_03: There are pollution control boards which are which are looking at these things.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_03: There are major sources of pollution, right?
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_03: This air pollution, only one part in the entire environment issue, right?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_03: When you talk environment, there's so much more, you know, water, etc., this, that, you know.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_03: But what are the major causes of air pollution, right?
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_03: So there are the and whether 20%, 25%, 22%, that depends on city to city and study to study.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_03: But clearly, you know, there's vehicular emissions, right?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_03: There are industrial emissions, there are thermal power plants, there is uh construction and demolition dust, right?
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_03: There is uh the uh waste disposal, garbage burning, right?
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: There's household, what is called household air pollution, where you're using non-clean fuels for cooking, right?
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then what is seasonal in terms of North India is what is called stubble burning, which happens in Punjab and Haryana, where rice fields are burnt to actually get it ready for the next crop to be sold.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: So, how do you handle all that?
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_03: So there are lots of things which are policy issues, right?
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_03: Where government is working on it, some policy changes have happened.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: You've seen that you know, we've come into Euro 6 norms, we're looking at cleaner fuels, we are looking at electrification.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_03: All that is a long process, right?
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: We are looking at diversion of vehicles around highways and expressways, right?
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_03: We're looking at orders have been passed, there's a life to vehicles, etc.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_03: There are a lot of debate on that, but you know, in like in NCR, diesel vehicles more than 10 years cannot ply, petrol vehicles more than 15 years cannot ply, right?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_03: But they'll go somewhere else and ply, right?
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_03: So we need to find some solutions to all that.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: But that is one part of it.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of research has happened.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_03: We said, what can an organization like ours do?
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_03: So we said, how do we create a space for ourselves?
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: We said we will help government in implementing their plans.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: We realize that while there are city action plans, there's a national clean air plan, not enough is happening around implementation, operationalizing, and monitoring.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_03: So we said, let's go with this to say that we will support government by providing project management units and help them in implementing this around doable items.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'll not allow what is not my control, right?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: So we said we'll work on what is called disperse sources, right?
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: So disperse sources are everywhere, right?
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: So you know, dust here, broken road here, traffic jam in a particular point, you know, uh unauthorized construction happening, you know, brick hills burning when they're not supposed to burn, right?
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: And see what are garbage burning happening unauthorized, so how can we stop that?
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: So, what can the municipal corporation and the local administration do to identify these kinds of sources and stop them?
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, can that address at least 20-25% of uh the issue?
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: We felt it it can, and that's how we started work and we started offering our pro bono services to state governments.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: So, in two and a half years, we're happy to say that today we are we have uh project teams working in support of uh the city of Delhi with every municipal corporation.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_03: We did a pilot with South Delhi Municipal Corporation, and today we are with South Delhi, East Delhi, North Delhi, and the New Delhi Municipal Corporation.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: And our teams are there, so we're carrying out surveys, identifying such spots, working along with them.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_03: We also created a lot of training toolkits for you know junior level employees to sensitize them to make them understand what all this is all about.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_03: We also created a dashboard for monitoring.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, the Delhi government has its own dashboard, but people who don't have, we provide this dashboard to them for use to actually you know so that everyone can see where the problem is and can be tracked and traced and monitored.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: Plus, we have young kids, bright kids, you know, management degrees, engineers, you know, professionals, people from uh from industry, people who have worked in the social sector want to come here who are working to with the government providing you know the management skills in terms of how to do it.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_03: Every DC has got so many things.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: This if you look at their world, this air pollution part is a very small part of the world.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: But how to bring that onto the forefront, how to get their attention and how to get them to divert resources and dedicate resources to make sure that we can address it together.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: So while we've done this in Delhi, we've started working Lucknow in UP, we've got an MOU with the Bihar government, started working Patna.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_03: We'll be doing two more cities.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: We hope to extend it to other cities in UP and Bihar also.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_03: And with the Punjab government, we've got PMUs which work along with them to help in bringing down reduction in stubble burning by engaging with farmers.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: Many things around that, how they can get the implements, the wherewithal, the machines, how to create a software for that, how to get farmers to interact with you, to tell them pluses and minuses, you know, how to create communication clips which the government will run, telling farmers what is right, what is wrong, you know, why they should not burn, etc.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_03: etc.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, all that for two years we've worked with Punjab government.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately, due to the ground situation, we can't say that we've had a lot of success.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_03: But our degree of engagement from last year to this year has increased phenomenally.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_03: But because of the farmers' agitation, other political issues, I'm not sure we've been able to make too much of an impact and the suffering will still be there, right?
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_03: But this work will carry on.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_03: So, so our focus is to work with the government while we have a research team.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_03: We don't reinvent research, we look at what is available and see how we can use it for our work.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: We're currently setting up a project management unit with the Central Pollution Control Board to help them monitor the implementation of NCAP across the country.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_03: So these little steps have been taken.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_03: I do believe that you know we'll of course now look for funders also because the project has become huge.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: So far, Ashur is funding it out of his own money, right?
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_03: We have some other funders too, but you know, I think the program is going to multiply, we'll have people all over, you know, and uh and it'll be in a small way.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: Our intent was we said if we can bring down the level of pollution by 30 to 40 percent in in in three to five years, five years, so we are on the right track and we put in systems in place within the government, right?
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe a lot more will happen if we can handle the macro issues, right?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_03: And if that brings about a change, right?
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_03: But it's something which needs to happen, and and our work is there that we said we will assist and support government, we'll work along with government.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_03: We are not doing, you know, uh we're not doing any advocacy, we're not criticizing government, right?
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_03: We are working as part of the government teams and enhancing their ability to handle this issue.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_03: So, simply put, that's what we're doing.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_02: This is quite amazing, right?
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the stuff that uh you spoke about is not easy.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, it's not easy.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: So uh uh here are some closing questions uh that we wanted to throw you with.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'll start with mine.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: What does the word successful mean to you?
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think I think successful means different things to different people, right?
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_03: But for me, successful means when you when you believe that you know uh you've left behind a legacy that you can be proud of of the work that you've done.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's immeasurable.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'll just give you an example that you know I worked in the travel industry for many years, right?
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_03: So now when I see so many of my colleagues, youngsters people who joined as trainees with me, and now who are CEOs and CEOs of organization, when there are senior people who recount little things that they say, sir, we you did this and we learned this from you.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_03: I had this problem and you helped me solve that, right?
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I think when you go now and you believe that people, you know, not because you're CEO, but they welcome you and they value you still, right?
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_03: And they ring you up for advice, whether it's from the army or from the industry, right?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: I would believe that uh what you've left behind is a legacy.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: If that is positive and you made a difference in people's lives, that that really is success.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: My next question, my next question, uh Colonel Chadda, is uh what are some of the books that have influenced you the most in your life?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_03: Let me make an honest admission that uh as far as that is concerned, I'm an anpar.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_03: I've I read a lot, I enjoy my reading, I read a lot of fiction, right?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_03: But uh I think I've learned from people.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_03: I can't say that you know there is a book which has changed my life.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: There are lots of books I've enjoyed, lots of books from which I've learned a lot.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_03: But but uh you know, but I mean I've worked with various people within the armed forces and outside and learned from them.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_03: And and this is both senior and junior.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's not only and and you know uh also your peer group.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_03: So learnings are from everywhere.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, I just can't say that you only learn from a boss, you learn from from so many people and so many instances, right?
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_03: Great.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my question to you is uh what's the one piece of advice, uh best piece of advice uh anyone has ever given you.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: I would think I've got so much advice, and that's that'd be so much good advice.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_03: So to to pick out the best piece of advice is a is a tough one, I think.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_02: But but tell us the top top one or two that come to your uh you know, come to you as you speak.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think I think clearly that uh you know uh it's don't believe that there is anything that you can do that will ever be hidden.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_03: You need to be transparent, you know.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_03: You can never believe that you'll make a make a fool of people.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_03: So that tells you that you gotta be honest, you've got to be transparent.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_03: And uh you can't duck issues, you can't hide things beyond a point, right?
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that that is really uh because I believe that you know that is critical.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_03: I tell people that you know always remember that uh you know your your reputation far outlives you wherever you've been, right?
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about how what results you achieved, it's not about what you did for the company, it's not about how much money you made, it's about what they remember about you as a human being and as an individual, which is most important.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: If you could invite four guests for your dream dinner, who would they be and why?
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, these are I mean, for a guy like me at my stage in life, you know, I I I really you know I would I would enjoy dinner with uh I mean my dream dinner would be with my dearest friends or very close family, right?
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_03: I honestly I you know uh no aspiration to do a do a dream dinner with any celebrities or anyone, you know, because uh the one one other reason is no, we are new, no, we are not even talking about celebrity.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think I think the fact that uh you're talking about close friends and family itself is something that is brilliant because I think uh you know Vignesh introduced me to something which is called uh how do you measure life, right, Vignesh?
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: And uh there uh it's a very interesting concept that he speaks about, which is therefore, you know, the value systems are built around your family and friends.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_02: So there's nothing wrong uh, you know, with celebrity dinner, but I think uh what you said makes a lot of sense.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and you know, in the earlier days, you wanted to meet celebrities, you know, the media, etc., was not like what it is today, right?
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_03: And you didn't have access to so much information.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_03: Then you know you sit down with a deal with people, you get to hear them, you get to you know get Gan from them, you get to meet them, right?
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_03: So so understanding and you know, getting information and all is not so much of a challenge nowadays.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_03: So that's maybe another reason why you know that aspiration, and of course, my age and life that you know that uh at this stage in life you look at uh what has real meaning for you.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: What would be the three or four things that you would recommend to an 18-year-old studying at a university today?
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's you know it's surprising that you should ask me this question because we were struggling with it.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_03: I have a 15-year-old grandson, and my wife and I were talking, you know, and and we're looking at his peer group, and we're looking at you know how how what are their priorities in life and how the world is changing, you know.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then, of course, you have now, you know, for whatever it's worth, you know, what happened to Aryan Khan and you know the whole drug scene, etc.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know how how to give the advice, but I think you know, one I would say the advice, whether you're giving it to an 18-year-old or a 25-year-old, doesn't change.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, be committed, right?
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_03: Set your goals in life, right?
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_03: Have fun, do everything within limitations, right, and have a code of conduct, right?
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_03: Be true to yourself, and remember that what is gained and what you achieve with hard work and by what you do yourself, right?
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_03: That'll that is far better than something which comes easily to you.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_03: So working hard, commitment, yet enjoying, staying within boundaries and limits, right?
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because there are so many distractions.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_03: Being true to yourself and remember that you know each one of us has a responsibility not only to ourselves but to our parents who have hope on us, to our families, and to our communities.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_03: So always have that sense of responsibility, and never forget that you you can always achieve.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_03: Each one of us can make a difference, each one of us can be what we want to be.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's absolutely brilliant.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh it's so so true and uh amazing.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so thanks a ton, uh Vijay.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was absolutely uh brilliant talking to you.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, some of the points that you made on some foundational changes that needed to be done uh in our uh government education and uh you know in schools and the work that you're doing on air pollution and uh your your ability to kind of uh you know drive this is something that is inspiring, and thanks a ton for taking time and talking to us.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, and I must also put on record.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've been I've said this earlier, I've been a very lucky guy.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_03: So wherever I've been, I've had fantastic teams.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, great teams who've actually helped me in what I set out to do, whether it was business, whether it was the foundation that I worked in.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I remain ever grateful to them because nothing would happen without a team, and that's what leadership is all about.