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Episode 030 Workflow Options: Irys · AI Tools for Practicing Lawyers

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to AI Tools for Practicing Lawyers.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Practical, no-nonsense guidance to help attorneys put AI power to work in their practice right now.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_03: There's a strange thing happening in legal AI right now.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: On one hand, lawyers are building more than ever.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: We're building Claude skills.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: We're building custom GPTs.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: We're automating intake.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: We're connecting our documents and our email and trying to turn all of this incredible new technology into something that actually works in a law practice.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: But there's a pretty big difference between building a cool AI tool and building infrastructure.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: My guest today, Sabiz Siddiqui, knows that difference firsthand.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: He left Big Law to co-found Iris, a legal AI company that started with what looked like a fairly conventional off-the-shelf AI product.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: But then something interesting happened.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: Customers started asking for more.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: Iris started connecting systems, customizing workflows, and building deeper into the actual operations of law firms and legal departments.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: And that led us into a much bigger conversation.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: Should lawyers be building their own AI tools?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: Should they buy them?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: What happens when the big foundation models can suddenly do things that entire legal tech companies were built to do six months ago?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to another episode of AI Tools for Practicing Lawyers.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Ron Drescher.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Heather Gardner.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: And our guest today is Sabi Siddiqui, a former big law litigator and outside general counsel who left behind the world of drafting NDAs and resolving disputes to become a legal tech builder and now CEO and co-founder of Iris.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's IRYS, a general-purpose legal AI tool that's offering a more accessible solution as opposed to the Harveys of the world.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: Sabi, welcome.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Ron, Heather, thank you so much.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And pleasure to be here.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, before we went live, you said something that was very interesting.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: You said we're behind relative to AI.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: What did you mean by that?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, Ron, you know, as I was mentioning on a weekly basis, right?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: I go to conferences, talks here in New York City that have to do with legal tech and just AI generally.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily that law lawyers are behind.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's that because, I mean, look at the nature of the business.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're very risk-averse people.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: We take our time with things.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, tech isn't exactly top of mind for lawyers as well, either.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I mean by we're behind is in the sense of well, somewhat of a bit of adoption as well, but also understanding what AI means and what it can do for us as practitioners for the business.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of catching up that needs to happen.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: What was the data or the information that you were perceiving that caused you to conclude that we're behind?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there's more so the less so the data, more so the rhetoric.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Just what's being talked about when I go to some of these conferences, it's still trying to understand whether it's the ROI, whether it's some of the more primitive data privacy concerns.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Data privacy is a huge issue and aspect of it.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: But there's certain ways to think about this because there's been a lot of advancements, whether it's at the larger big AI model down to even our company, right?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you go to, let's say, an AI native conference, there's different conversations happening.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just a matter of at least people in my seat, people that are either founders or leading tech companies, to obviously educate the people that we're selling to.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't fault lawyers for it.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're doing a phenomenal job and we're being rightfully cautious, but there is some catching up to do.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, where because we do the podcast, Heather and I are seeing lawyers involved in tech in the AI world all the time.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: And it seems to us, or at least it seems to me, that there are so many lawyers out there that are like building skills in Claude, or, you know, trying to turn their law firms AI native, or going out like you did, to create AI tools in the legal field.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: Is that perspective skewed?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: I just last week was at a legal AI summit, as you know.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I am all I'm often at this at similar events that that you're discussing, Sabi, where we hear the rhetoric and the the doubts and the fears and just the there's something we've talked about many times on the podcast.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Legal maybe a little behind, but we operate with abundance of caution in our industry for very valid reasons.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: But we are three years in now.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I understand where you're coming from.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're starting to really get behind.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it has been smart to have hesitation, to have caution, but we really do need to take advantage of and start learning and using these tools and helping more people, serving more consumers.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Heather, that that's absolutely right.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: And Ron, to your point, it's the red car analogy.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: You talk or think about a red car, and then all you see is red cars.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of there.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, you have this phenomenal platform and podcasts.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm assuming that you're getting in some of the some of the tip of the top people that are doing exactly what you're talking about.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: But to to even double tap on one of the things that you'd mentioned, people, lawyers in particular, building on clawed, clawed skills and things of that nature.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we have to understand and ask ourselves as lawyers when we're doing something like that, what is going to be sustainable?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, AI is moving so fast.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm saying that from the builder's side.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: The it the joke inside of our company is really every day in the real world is three days in our company.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's because something new is happening all the time.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we have to understand if you're creating a skill, okay, is Claude going to be the best place to actually deploy that?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Can I have an environment in which, you know, from start to finish, I'm going to get the end result or work product?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Or am I still going to have to be involved?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Am I going to have to do certain checks and balances?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, as lawyers, we should always, always be checking the work.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but again, we have to think a little bit deeper about where, where and what we're building on.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I became a founder this summer, much to my chagrin.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: I never wanted to be a founder.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: I barely wanted to be a builder.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I discovered that there's a universe between building Claude skills, which are great to have in your practice, and actually trying to create a web app that's going to be available to lawyers just all over the world.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: How would you advise lawyers to bridge that gap if it's something they're really considering doing?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's something they're really considering doing, I'm not going to say, hey, come over to Iris.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: We are a solution.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: We're a phenomenal solution.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's in the data that we can talk about, whenever.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, if you have that drive, that impetus, yes, try your hand at the skills.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: But just keep in mind, skills is it's a basic feature.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: What you're doing is you're providing Claude or an LLM a layer to operate on.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, again, for example, we've just done last week a complete entire intake process for a team, a certain announced team.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: They had thought that, hey, we're using skills right now in Claude.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, they're on Claude.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: And they had thought that, hey, the skills can get us to where we need to get to.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: But for their intake with the systems, the integrations, while Claude had all the integrations, in fact, they still still were not able to piece together the right funnel or foundation, right?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: We put in 36 engineering hours, and now we're saving them close to, I think it's like 125 hours per month.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just a star, right?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what they were getting with Claude.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's because, again, we've built a whole ingestion pipeline.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: We have the memory, we have all of these support systems that are behind a real live application.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: So, okay, so maybe I had a misperception about your company.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: I got the feeling that Iris is an app that you buy off the shelf, you get your password, your login information, you pay your$299 a month, and you get to play around in this, you know, AI playground.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm hearing that it's that maybe your company is a little bit more hands-on with its customers.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it custom for each client?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: We have a bit of a dirty little secret where we started exactly with what you just mentioned, an off-the-shelf application.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the thing is, the way that we are built, think about it this way.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you have a, if you're a competitor, if you're building on top of a Chat GPT, you're building a certain scaffold, just like a New York City skyscraper.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're building on top of a foundation.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you there's some things that you just cannot move or you can't get off of.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: What we've done is we have think about it like Jenga blocks because it's our own infrastructure, it's our own harnesses.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're able to complete like actually be model agnostic, and we don't even start with the LLMs.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we can take things out, move things around pretty rapidly, extremely rapidly.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: So what we realized is that the legal platform, the legal tool that you're talking about, the 299, that has been an entryway.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: This specific in-house team that I'm talking about, I don't want to name them just Shep because we've done such a phenomenal job for them.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: I want there to be a larger splash around it.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: But um they started off with that 249 platform when it was 249.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was two that grew into their legal ops, then their compliance team, and now a bit of their accounting and finance teams are on it as well.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about 77 people on the platform.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, and then as to Heather's point, what we did is we took the existing platform, white-labeled it slightly, but what we gave back to them is the existing product.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we productized this entire process.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit of this palantier approach plus the new way of building, which if you have your own infrastructure, you can do whatever you really want.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we are.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: How does that kind of conversation develop between a law firm and a vendor?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: They think they're buying something off the shelf for$249 a user a month and they're doing it.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: And how does it become apparent that, wait a second, there's a custom solution available for this company?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was a bit of discovery for both of us.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And where did the discovery even start first?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: I practiced for close to eight years at the law firm.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, even before, obviously, becoming a lawyer, before going to the firm, we're being sold to as law students, literally since day one.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we're used to a certain cadence, we're used to a certain sales cycle, a certain sales process, certain pitches, all that sort of other stuff.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: For whatever reason, even before the advent of AI, I was kind of part of some of our buying decisions as well.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, I was getting emails, cold emails on a daily basis from certain vendors.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I personally just hated all of it.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I hated it for two reasons.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: I thought the tech generally was not that good.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then on top of that, there wasn't really an aspect of proper support.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: It felt like every time I spoke to one of the representatives from a company, my comments were falling on deaf ears.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And in the back of my mind, I was thinking, like, damn, if they just did this one thing, if they just connected the dots here, this could be a whole item inside their business.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: This could be a business center.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of the reason also why I started the company.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: But what we realized is, hey, if you just be transparent, if you provide really good support, if you listen intently.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's also one of the reasons why we didn't want to do this massive marketing campaign right in the beginning with our dollars.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: We wanted to grow in what we thought was a sustainable, very fast, but very sustainable way, so that the same exact gripes that people had with whether whether it's the legacy vendors or the newer vendors.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm, I know those newer vendors as well because again, I was part of the buying team at the firm before I left.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: But we didn't fall in, want to fall into that trap.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: We wanted to build something that actually mattered, that we could actually change practices.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's happened on a daily basis with the limited, so to speak, clients we have granted, or close to 400 law firms and in-house teams now.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: We, if you, if a client emails me, like I'm gonna respond, right?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and if I can't respond, I'm forwarding that off to my support team.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: In our support channel on Slack, everyone has access to it, whether you're an engineer, whether you're on product, whether you're in sales, whether you're part of the support team, there's a phenomenal way in which we answer everything.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: We're getting you an answer.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna be bot that's responding either.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: So you're just talking about a customer base of about 400 different law firms.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: How did you penetrate that market?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: We exactly what I just mentioned.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and to build off of your earlier question, how did we, you know, grow from two to 77 or whatever?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was by offering that level of support, literally listening, like on the phone, someone calling them and understanding what they're what the pain points are, us understanding like, hey, we don't have to be just an application.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: We can move things around.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: And while we're moving things around, we can also then provide so much more to our existing clients as well.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: So again, everything that that we're doing for someone might just go back into the product at the end of the day, unless it's truly, truly white-labeled.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that 400 law firm and in-house team penetration came quite literally from word of mouth.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing else.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: We did no marketing, no nothing.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: We, you know, I saw some of the Facebook groups that attorneys are in, some of the bar association um channels.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's where we were talked about.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's where we spread like wildfire.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just customers referring other customers.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's literally it.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Only in the last few months we've spun up a GTM, a good market team.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: That sort of scale is just amazing.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: Are you are you in any particular practice area that stronger than others that enabled that kind of word of mouth?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Ron, so I I think what you'll probably want from me is as much candor as possible.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like this this is the way it's yeah.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: So a little bit of an anecdote.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when Devanch, my co-founder and I, when we pitched Iris, and it was called a kidis back then, when we pitched Iris to the specific VC, there were like, guys, you gotta, you gotta specif specify as far as your practice area is concerned.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe do just plaintiffs, maybe just do defense work or whatever.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: But like you gotta be more specific than just this general thing you're talking about.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now, my co-founder, Devanch, is he's a phenomenal AI researcher and implementation engineer.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: He's literally always been ahead of the curve.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And him and I together, we realized like, hell no, we're not just gonna go into concentrate on one specific practice area, grant it that would have done wonders, maybe even sold the company by now, who knows?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: But the breadth of what we're doing and the breadth of what AI can do, if you take a look at Astra for law, it's not just focusing on, let's say, one specific or niche practice area.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: AI generally and models generally can do so much more.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: It depends on what you're feeding into the system.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, with us, if you are a law firm that's been in business for about five or 10 years, you have this plethora of data, you plug that into our system, give it a few hours for the maintenance and everything else to kick in, it'll come back to a very specific iris for you at the end of the day.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And now with harnesses, the be the ability to call tools that previously weren't able to call, websites and things of that nature, concentrating on specific practice area, no.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: We've also been getting into some of the more IP stuff with T Tab litigation, stuff like that.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: But that's where our clients are taking us.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's becoming very easy for us to do now, especially.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: So do you think the mega companies like Harvey and Lagora had to answer the same questions when they went to get their VC funding?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because they they're a general, they're both general purpose AI legal tools.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we've we've we've spoken to some of their teams, not only from a buyer's side, but I mean, literally spoken to either engineering, we've spoken to their investors.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: We understand what and why they did and how they did it.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: There is a huge or was a huge, huge first mover advantage.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: They did exactly the right thing that I would have done if I was first to move like they were.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: We are wave two, and we'll talk about what wave two is.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: They, I think, had a leg up in the sense of their Harvey specifically, OpenAI was one of their first investors.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: GPT generally is not specific to any one practice area, so to speak.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: So they were likely able to show that, hey, this doesn't apply to just one thing or place.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: We can do so much more.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, are they answering the same questions that we are answering right now for our clients?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes and no.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be honest, and both of those teams know this as well because we won their clients over.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's that the way that we're able to work is is deeper than them because of how we're built.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: They have done a phenomenal job.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: They're not bad companies whatsoever.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: We are just very different, and we're also going in a very different direction right now.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So listen, the the tech at the end of the day, the underlying infrastructure, granted, if you open the 299 application, right, it might look very similar.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of attorneys say, like, holy, oh wow, this is better.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's built by lawyers, and we're actually listening to our customers.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, the ingestion, the memory, the permissions, all of that is vastly different because we're not just, we're not starting with the models first.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're starting with our own pipeline and then bring in the models to do the job as far as the natural language processing is concerned.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: That is the last step in what we do.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the answers tend to be vastly different or better.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: The amount of information you're able to put in and have really good quality output is because we have our own systems.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's the underlying tech.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: What we're doing right now, as I mentioned earlier, it's not that we're pivoting, it's that we're fitting into our shoes now.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And our shoes are not just an application layer.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Our shoes truly are you start with the application, but then you do all these deployments at large scales and at cutting edge cost.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: What I mean by that, for example, is this specific company that I was talking about, they had earmarked certain, they they thought it was going to cost them a certain amount.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: They thought it was gonna take a certain amount of time because they had gone and done their diligence with some larger competitors for this custom intake that I'm talking about.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: We came in at 75% of the cost and 90% 90% of the time, 36 engineering hours versus whatever.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: I've discussed this with other lawyers, both on the show and off the show.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it seems to me that the legal field is racing at a breakneck pace to adopt AI as kind of part of its overall presentation.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, look, I see you're you've got a little skepticism, and I I respect that.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: But at the same time, every CLE in the United States in the last six months and the next 18 months is going to be about AI.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: Every single, you know, and in fact, in you know, I'm looking at other CLEs like uh, you know, we're we're Heather and I are both really bankruptcy guys.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I saw a CLE for subchapter V bankruptcies, and I'm saying, who's going to that?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody's going to the AI CLEs.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: But so that's what I'm perceiving, which I think is counterintuitive because lawyers are so risk averse, and AI carries with it so many, you know, fundamental risks.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: How do we reconcile those two kind of seemingly disparate trends?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to just clarify because I'm doing a lot of those, you know, CLEs.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on these panels, and I just want to clarify they're racing to the CLEs.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: They're not actually all implementing it in their offices, and they are still scared to.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we've had so many attorneys on that have talked about a lot of the reasons.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And as we've talked to several bankruptcy attorneys who don't want to buy one off-the-shelf thing, what he's talking about is offering something that is custom, which seems to be what attorneys want.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, Heather and Ron, excellent, excellent question.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because it depends on kind of who you're talking to as well, whether it's an N-house team, whether it's lawyers at a law firm.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: What we have realized at the end of the day, it comes down to the business of law, which is what is scaring people the most.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: When we speak to partners, whether they're at a AM Law 100 or mid-sized or even smaller firms, boutiques, it's it's about the ROI.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: If we talk to an N-house team, it's about the ROI.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: The ROI on the in-house side is much easier to realize.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because as I mentioned before, sticking with that one same example, if this team is saving 100 plus hours, they're also saving a quarter of that that's that was going to their outside council.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the ROI for them is huge.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the best part is what they're doing is They're not hiring less than this NOS team.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: They're actually going to hire a couple more attorneys to join their team.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because now those attorneys, much like our engineers and our team, are 100x, what they could do before.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: So while they still may be viewed as cost centers, if they are saving the larger organization money on the tail line, whether it's outside council fees, whether it's being able to do processes faster or get to more deals, that's that's a phenomenal place to be.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it comes down to the ROI.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: There are absolutely risks with privacy and with things like, you know, hallucinations and stuff like that.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: We can talk about that as well.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: But the reason that we have seen that people are scared really is the ROI and then the hesitation to adopt something new or do something new.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's really always.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and not to drone on, but you know, I literally remember before I left the firm, while I did dispute res.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I was outside Council World Bank as well.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: For this one larger client that had a subsidiary that was going into bankruptcy.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was weird.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: We were thinking about liquidation forms as well, chapter seven, stuff like that.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I was doing some of those forms.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: I had used a particular platform, an AI platform to actually do those forms.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, shit, that would have taken me at least 45 minutes.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: But guess what?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: It took me 10.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: I saw the writing on the wall up until the day that I left.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a matter of how we want to integrate AI into our practice.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: We still have not figured that out on a law firm side entirely.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: What we have seen anecdotally and tangibly from our own clients is if you're doing things like opinion letters, things that are more routine or based on precedent.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And let's say you get an email or you have this an agreement that you got to base this new opinion letter on, that's very easy to do on a fee basis.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: So a client of ours that did that on an hourly basis, now doing it for fee, they charge a flat rate of 3,500 bucks.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: It takes them no more than one hour to do these opinion letters, but they're the clients are paying for this firm's years, decades of judgment that's going into this opinion letter.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we're not necessarily seeing them lose money, but they're not losing money whatsoever on this.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's taking them one hour max.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: But it's having the wherewithal to actually take a step back and understand what is it that I'm providing?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: What are the services that I'm providing?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: What can I productize as a law firm?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm providing an outcome.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Can that be a product?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a mindset shift.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a ton of my own business before I left the firm as well.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: One of the bigger reasons why I left was not just because I wanted to do product, but I saw the inefficiencies firsthand.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Was I always worth, you know, whatever, 1,100 bucks an hour or whatever?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is that always I don't think so.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: But now By the way, I I think there are babysitters that are worth$1,100 an hour.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think teachers should get a million dollars an hour.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I completely agree with it.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: I completely agree.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, if if AI is delivered in such a way that maybe it's our company, maybe it's not, but we really do want to get to the core of the business and practice of law.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because we think that it can change.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: We know it's not going to be an overnight change, but for the betterment of society or whatever you want to call it, like that is something that's actually really top of mind for us.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: The efficiency can be value-driven.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: That can provide a change in pricing.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: We have seen our attorney saying that, hey, we're not working less, but we're doing so much more better work for our clients, which everyone's really happy about.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I was talking to an attorney uh yesterday, the day before, and the attorney said, this attorney from a big law firm, and said, Well, our in-house counsel clients, they they know we use AI, they want us to use AI, they insist upon us using AI, and then they insist upon us documenting how we use AI and how that's saving them money.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: How would you advise that lawyer to implement a response to that demand?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: And does your company provide those metrics for your clients?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: So even better.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: But that's, and again, I do not want to be just plugging, but there's so much anecdotal evidence for what I'm going to say right now.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Another N-house team that's on our platform, they're a fintech company.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: They basically asked us, it's September right now, earlier in the year, hey, you know, we want to be able to connect with our law firms.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: We want them to start adopting AI.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: We want to understand how they're using it because we're using it.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're still getting the same level of bills, though.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: They're saying they're using it, but we don't know.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Can you help us in some ways?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Funny enough, I talked to my sales team about this.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we we might have even missed this if we didn't go so deep.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: But one of their outside counsels is or was and still is on the platform.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it was, we had, we wanted to broach the conversation, like, hey, can we bring the parties together here?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: And what we did for them is we actually created a bridge where this fintech company that does a ton of regulatory reports specifically with this one outside firm, it's a very, it's a relatively routine process.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: And giving them that bridge, basically a client portal on steroids, allow them to understand how this specific firm is using AI because, again, they're literally on the same platform with them.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that is, I think, the most ideal way to do this, where the in-house teams and lawyers are in the same workspace, actually.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, what we've also done, and Heather, to your point, we send month end, if you are an enterprise client, your basically ROI report.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: We literally call it an ROI report.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: And what we've now done for three larger clients, and because they have like droves of their attorneys on it and practice groups, because practice groups, we're able to break it down by practice groups.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what we did as a pilot with one specific firm, the way that we've set up the platform, the online platform, is you're working in matters.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: So whether you're at an in-house or or at a law firm, you can work in a matter.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're working in matters, they've organized all their matters in our client folders.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: We were able to give ROI reports per client folder, basically.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that has been a hit for the specific firm.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Query as to whether every single firm is going to want that.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: The thing also is we're kind of a little, our hands are kind of tied right now.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: We've grown faster than we anticipated.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: So part of the reason of what we're we're going to be doing with our with our upcoming raise and stuff is literally just getting more support, people, bodies.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Not everything can be AI-ified whatsoever.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: You still need that human touch.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's not going to go away.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: So what can't what can't be AI-ified?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Judgment.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Judgment.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Human judgment cannot be AI-ified.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: AI can give you reasoning.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: It can give you a output on the basis of what's been inputted.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: However, human reasoning and judgment is just vastly different, and that will not be AI-fied.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: That is what a client is paying SCADN to do, right?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that is what a client is paying any other big law firm to do.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: AI can assist to getting to that judgment quicker, better, being more informed.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: But that judgment is what AI is not going to do away with at the end of the day.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about dollars because your price point is so impressive.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: We look when we talk about the gap between big law and law firms having access to tech like this.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Starting at$299 a month, your team starting at$329 a month, Harvey, I believe, is what,$1,200 to$1,500 a month per user, and you have to have 100 seats or something of that nature.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, they don't go public with that.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I you can find it.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can find it.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can find it.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: I found that information.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've I found that information.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: What was that?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: So to add a little bit of color.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: The I don't know how much trouble I'm going to get in for this, but whatever.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: We'll take it on the chin if we didn't.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, through clients and other people, we we know the pricing of Harvey and what it used to be.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: At least it was$1,200 to$2,600, depending on if you had the Lexus integration.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time, both Harvey and Lagora have been going down market.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: However, you know, the the cautionary tale for all of that is if you take a look at the customer agreements, what they're doing is they're doing two things.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: They're moving certain customers and segments onto lower tier models.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not getting the best intelligence.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're wrapping around another model and that's where you're providing us intelligence, that just means you're getting lower quality responses at the end of the day.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's not to, you know, we're not trying to slap them on the we're not we're not trying to bash anyone, but that's just the reality of the situation.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's why the smaller firms are kind of mad.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: On top of that, what they're doing is uh they're use, they're moving to usage-based pricing.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of companies are saying, oh, usage-based pricing is good because maybe not all of your, you're not all of your users are going to use it.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: So just pay us this nominal fee.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: One of our clients, I mean, you take you can take a look at the Claude anecdote that we had.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: One client that, you know, seven of their attorneys were using Iris, two of their attorneys were using Claude.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: They ran up a 4K bill in two weeks using Claude.
• 31:04
  unknown: Totally.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Their bill on Iris was their bill.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't, that wasn't the question, though.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: This my question wasn't how much does it cost versus Harvey?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because the the gap is there.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, we know that it's huge.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: My question was when you're doing a custom build, which is what we what I think is amazing because every attorney we have on the show talks about, they don't want the off-the-shelf AI tool.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: They want their own.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's why they're all building their own quad skills.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's why they're building their own verticals, because they want what they want.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: So if you provide that, that's gonna be a that's gonna be a, you know, which we've had another vendor on that provides a similar thing.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: That is going to be what I feel like is the most valuable AI tools for attorneys.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're building out that custom build, are you getting a lot closer to that Harby or that uh that monthly?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is because I'm guessing that's not gonna be in your$329 a month per se range.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it really depends because even what Ron had mentioned earlier, the skills can certainly, and we have a phenomenal workflow and skills library, that can get you really, really far.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: But if you have disparate systems, if you are, for example, there's one larger firm we're working with, they have a I don't know if I can name the DMS, they have a DMS provider.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: However, they have their documents in other places as well.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's not easy to do.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: No one can do that.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: We can do that because it's an easy ingestion question for us.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: So the way that we price it for this specific firm is you know, the sales team plus engineering plus product worked out a number and that came out to$399 per month for this specific client.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't even basically we said, like, hey, we know quite honestly, this is going to take us X amount of hours.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's not exactly the end of the world for us.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: However, there's gonna be maintenance costs on the back end because we're tying together these systems.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is the price that we think is gonna be best suited for this job.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do an annual contract and then go forward from there.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: That was a custom build?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Custom build.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: That was a custom build.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I'm not so sure I agree, Heather, that I mean, yes, the attorneys that we get on the show all want to build their own stuff because they've already kind of established their place as a, you know, kind of an AI maven.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: But is that really true amongst so many of the rank and file lawyers that you sh that show up in court, you know, every morning for their 30-second hearings and and then go back to their office?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: But I I kind of get the sense that lawyers would be more than happy to get a solution that's off the shelf.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Specifically, if we were talking about mid-size and smaller boutiques, it's a time thing.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: And they're busy as hell.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: They're providing value on a daily basis for their clients.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: So they don't want to get involved with whether it's custom or even talking.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's skepticism involved, a lot of skepticism.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the pricing is always a concern as well.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So the$299 gets them across the board or across the shelf.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then on top of that, with the support that we offer literally everyone, knock on wood, and hopefully we were able to continuously offer that to everyone, they're really able to get the job done.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, the hundreds of attorneys I've worked with in the past five years, and you know, many, many before the past five years, they all want what they want.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And just like we had that quote, uh, Teris Salinas said that I've never met an attorney that didn't want things done their way.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think that if they had the option to have someone build exactly what they want versus something off the shelf, and you're looking at a similar price point, it seems like a no-brainer.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: And but so one of the reasons why I started Iris was it felt continuously like, okay, you have these bigger companies out there.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Somehow, some way it just feels like was rewards actually behind this.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: The magic was lost as far as the tech is concerned because it was no different than ChatGPT, quite frankly.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, what we have been continuously trying to do, specifically with the off-the-shelf option, is look into the future, connect the dots.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: What do people want today?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: But what do they really want tomorrow?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: How can we make the practice better tomorrow?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're going to be able to do the base level functionality hands down.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: But for example, like even with button placement, even with things like the amplified prompt, even with things like how you can customize the jurisdiction and stuff like that.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're paying attention to all of that really intently.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I can't, I really can't say that for everyone else, but it it comes down to also understanding and listening on a deeper level that deeply deeper level for some reason.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're building your you're you're building your product and your company the exact way AI was built by learning pattern recognition and dumping information into it.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: That is genius, actually.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's what I would have wanted.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's really what I would have wanted.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the things that I've really appreciated about this movement in the AI world is that it has caused lawyers and law firms to focus on their systems and their processes for getting work done and for for managing their workflow.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I I want to get your take on this.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: All other things being equal, do you think a firm is going to be better off actually implementing some AI solution or actually having its lawyers and staff learn the tools that are already in-house?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: The phone system, Microsoft Word, all the features of Slack.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: Where do you think the best ROI is there?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, Ron, that is it's such a phenomenal question.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was that guy.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: He was the one.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I was part of the new innovation team that we had launched at the firm before I left as well.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: But for years prior to that, I wanted to take as much advantage of the tech that was available to us at that time.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Frankly, the the problem is that even with Slack, whether it's Skype, Microsoft, Team, Zoom, everyone's going on the AI route as well.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: So there's some learning with AI, but it's still the efficiency aspect, those are tools.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Tools can only do so much.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: A platform that unifies the way that you work, that's a different story.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you can become better and you can become slightly more efficient and deliver some more value to your clients by learning the tools, such as Skype or whatever it is.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm dating myself, maybe a little bit, but the platforms, I think, really is the way to go.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Sabin, this is just a wonderful conversation.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: I have, I have a list of about 50 questions I haven't gotten to, but uh I think it's time for us to move over to our practice signal segments.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: And this is a segment where we look at uh how lawyers in the wild are struggling and maybe potential solutions we have for them.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe that there's an AI solution, maybe there isn't an AI solution.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: They always come from Reddit because, you know, you can't have more fun than you can have, you know, scrolling through Reddit.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: So so here, this one comes.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we're trying to find a better process for opening new cases with our PI.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: Currently, we have a few people in the office that help each other out with the different stages of a new case.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: But as we get busier, this has created gaps in who owns the next step of the file.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: See, Sub Bee, this is going to be a softball for you.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: Would love to hear how others have found a good way to streamline process and ensure that a new case is opened efficiently, quickly, and without unnecessary bottlenecks.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: So if you walked into that firm tomorrow, Sub Bee, how would you diagnose the problem and what would Iris or any well-designed system actually do to make ownership, deadlines, and the next required action unmistakable?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Let me do this because I I won't be so self-serving.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: If I were to walk in tomorrow and I had no affiliation with Iris, right?
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I just knew AI really, really well, what I would do is I would set up Claude or ChatGPT projects and I would have an integration to ideally Gmail.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and this firm would ideally, because I'm using ChatGPT or just Claude, there would be a G drive team.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: That would make it a lot easier.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: That way I can set up a process for that intake.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to require a little bit more of a manual effort with GPT.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: It can be a little bit easier with skills on Claude and routines that may start running up a bill.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, not may, it will definitely start running up a bill, specifically if you are prosecuting all of those PI cases within Claude.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't make sense to break up the system where you're doing work off of Claude or you're at least not feeding in your documents and drafts to Claude, because then you're not going to be able to go from beginning to end thoroughly, right?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you're going to want to be doing all that work there.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now, a system like Iris, which charges by C, obviously you're able to do all of that.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then the best part is not only are we releasing an intake, a whole new intake system, literally within the next 14 days, but we are already set up to basically do most of what I just talked about, right?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you're not going to be charged on tokens.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you can set up a matter automatically.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can assign your team members to that matter or that client.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: So there is going to be literally something for every single person at this firm, whether you are a paralegal, junior, senior associate, or partner.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Partner has visibility into the matter.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: A senior and junior associate can do the work along with the paralegal as well.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's in there setting up tasks, deadlines, things of that nature.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: And we made it extremely simple and easy for the whole team to be on the platform.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I would do if I knew about Iris.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: If I didn't know about Iris, I would set it up on Claude.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know, uh Claude has become the favorite of the legal builder community.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: OpenAI just came out with Astra for legal, uh, about four months after Claude came out for Claude for Legal.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is ChatGPT have they caught up?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: Will they ever catch up?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: Are we ever going to say, yeah, Claude for Legal, ChatGPT for legal, they're all the same?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I was at the Astra event and the announcement.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: I was literally in the front row, actually.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: I really liked their announcement.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: It is, I don't want to say it's very different, but it is different from what Claude for Legal is.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: What Claude did is they distilled down, as Heather mentioned, right?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Patterns, usage patterns.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: And they they came up with the concept of skills.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: They came up with the concept of projects, more refined projects, and a bunch of other things, specifically spawning from their use of Claude code, from developers' use of Claude Code.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: So they took Claude code, they turned it into co-work.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Cowork then became Claude for Legal.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and never started out as legal, neither did GPT.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: But what GPT has done, they've taken a lot of what Claude did well, but also GPT's users were doing well too.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: They did, they got to the same conclusion, and then they added a bunch of integrations, a bunch of partnerships.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: That really what's mattered, what matters the most.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: But on top of that, what we've seen is out of the box, GPT 6 Astra is quite good at legal work.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Specifically, it is quite good at not hallucinating either.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then you add in the legal integrations and plugins, you get a model that gets you high fidelity, high fidelity responses, quality responses.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think they've done a phenomenal job.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: It will always be an arms race with entropic with open AI.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think one might have the edge today, another might have the edge tomorrow, but that's literally how it's going to go.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that anyone, you know, you could be doing a specific job, Claude's gonna be better, or GPT is gonna be better on a given day.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think at the end of the day, the differentiation.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: Now, can you can an open AI or an anthropic buy a Harbor Lagora?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: The valuations are crazy, I think.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: But what you really then want is the workflows.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Product is really easy to create today.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's being commoditized, meaning the features are being commoditized.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: However, there is a lot of value in those workflows.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's where companies like our ours come in.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's where maybe an Eve legal or some other of these companies come into play in question as well.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's what we're seeing with the landscape right now.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: However, Claude and GPT have wiped out a number of AI companies, I think, and they're gonna continue doing that.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: That differentiation is vastly important, whether it's on the tech front and then it's gonna be the distribution and marketing.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's the those are the only things that matter today.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Sabi, this has been a really fascinating episode.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_03: Really enjoyed speaking with you.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: So if one of our listeners wants to reach out and see if it's a fit for them with uh with you and with Iris, what's their best way to do that?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Either you can go on our website, fill out the contact form, we'll give you a live demo on your work, or just shoot me an email.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't mind either.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Again, we're very personable and we try to get to literally everyone.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: My email is subby.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: My first name, S-A-B as in boyi-h at ikitas.ai, I-Q I D as in David I-S.ai.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's the old name of the company.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, we'll we'll we'll get you sorted at the end of the day.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: So all right.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I the way I know this has been a great conversation is I didn't get to ask you any of my prepared questions.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: And uh that's always a good sign.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, what was that?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: Or it means I droned on for too long.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: So not at all.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for being with us.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, this has been another episode of AI Tools for Practicing Lawyers.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: We'll see you next time.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's it for today's episode of AI Tools for Practicing Lawyers.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see you next time.