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Mega Edition: The Many Theories Surrounding The Motive That Drove The Murders in Moscow (10/10/26) · Beyond The Horizon

0:00
Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome back to the program. One
0:04
Speaker 1: of the main questions I have, and I'm sure most
0:07
Speaker 1: people have, is what motivated Brian Koberger to allegedly commit
0:12
Speaker 1: these crimes? And at this point, we don't have any
0:16
Speaker 1: solid answers. All we have is a lot of speculation
0:20
Speaker 1: and a lot of opinions from experts in the various
0:24
Speaker 1: fields that deal with these sorts of crimes. And on
0:29
Speaker 1: today's episode, we're hearing from another one of these experts,
0:33
Speaker 1: this time a forensic psychiatrist named Ian Lamoureux. So let's
0:38
Speaker 1: get into this article from Newsweek and let's see what Mr.
0:42
Speaker 1: Lamoureux has for us. Headline, Idaho murder was chasing a
0:48
Speaker 1: thrill kill, says forensic expert. This article was authored by
0:53
Speaker 1: James Bickerton. The murder of four University of Idaho students
0:58
Speaker 1: in the early hours of November 13th, 2022, was likely
1:03
Speaker 1: a thrill kill, according to a leading forensic psychiatrist. And
1:08
Speaker 1: for those of you wondering what a thrill kill might be,
1:11
Speaker 1: here is what it says in Wikipedia. A thrill kill
1:16
Speaker 1: is a premeditated or random murder that is motivated by
1:19
Speaker 1: the sheer excitement of the act. While there have been
1:22
Speaker 1: attempts to categorize multiple murders, such as identifying thrill killing
1:27
Speaker 1: as a type of hedonistic mass slaying, actual details of
1:30
Speaker 1: events frequently overlap category definitions, making attempts at such distinctions problematic.
1:37
Speaker 1: Those identified as thrill killers are typically young males, but
1:42
Speaker 1: other profile characteristics may vary. According to Jack Levin, director
1:47
Speaker 1: of the Brodnick Center on Conflict and Violence at Northeastern University.
1:53
Speaker 1: The major common denominator among those who commit thrill killings
1:57
Speaker 1: is that they usually feel inadequate and are driven by
2:01
Speaker 1: a need to feel powerful. To a certain extent, they,
2:04
Speaker 1: thrill killers, may make their victims suffer so that they
2:07
Speaker 1: can feel good, said Levin. Sadism is fairly common in
2:11
Speaker 1: thrill killings. The killer might torture, degrade, or rape his
2:15
Speaker 1: victims before he or she takes his or her life.
2:19
Speaker 1: They frequently have an ideal victim type who has certain
2:22
Speaker 1: physical characteristics. Thrill killers have been frequently romanticized in films.
2:29
Speaker 1: So just using that basic description of what a thrill
2:33
Speaker 1: killer is certainly could see Brian Koberger being categorized as
2:37
Speaker 1: that if he is the person responsible for these murders.
2:41
Speaker 1: Certainly could be a situation where you have a thrill
2:43
Speaker 1: killer who decided that now is the time that I'm
2:47
Speaker 1: going to go and live out my fantasies. And to
2:50
Speaker 1: normal thinking folks, that sounds just completely batshit insane. But
2:54
Speaker 1: these people aren't wired the same way that most of
2:58
Speaker 1: us are. And when the facade of normalcy snaps for
3:01
Speaker 1: these people, forget it. It snaps. Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan,
3:07
Speaker 1: Zanna Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin were all stabbed to death
3:11
Speaker 1: when an intruder broke into a shared student house in
3:14
Speaker 1: the town of Moscow, Idaho. Brian Koberger, a 28-year-old criminology Ph.D. student,
3:20
Speaker 1: was arrested on December 30th and has been charged with
3:23
Speaker 1: four counts of first-degree murder along with burglary. Koberger's legal
3:28
Speaker 1: team have indicated he will plead not guilty and he
3:32
Speaker 1: will seek to clear his name. Good luck with that.
3:35
Speaker 1: There is a ton of evidence against this dude and
3:37
Speaker 1: it's going to be a challenge for him to clear
3:40
Speaker 1: his name. And then you add in the situation with
3:44
Speaker 1: Ann Taylor and the possible conflict of interest and Brian
3:48
Speaker 1: Koberger might even be looking at having new legal counsel
3:51
Speaker 1: at some point. Speaking to Newsweek, Ian Lamoureux a forensic
3:58
Speaker 1: psychiatrist and clinical assistant professor of psychiatry at the university
4:03
Speaker 1: of Arizona said initial evidence suggests the murders could have
4:06
Speaker 1: been a thrill kill. And look, we just don't know, right?
4:11
Speaker 1: If we're being honest, all of these experts, all of
4:13
Speaker 1: these legal scholars, they're just given their opinions as well.
4:18
Speaker 1: Now their opinions are grounded in more education than most
4:22
Speaker 1: of us as far as the topic at hand. But remember,
4:26
Speaker 1: These experts don't have access to all of the case files.
4:29
Speaker 1: They don't have access to all of the evidence. All
4:32
Speaker 1: they're doing is looking at the circumstantial evidence that's been
4:35
Speaker 1: provided and giving an assessment based on that. What I
4:39
Speaker 1: will say, though, is a lot of these experts end
4:42
Speaker 1: up being spot on. When you hear what they say,
4:45
Speaker 1: the way they break down the profile, what the person
4:48
Speaker 1: was motivated by, a lot of these experts, as far
4:51
Speaker 1: as these clinical psychologists, criminal profilers, They know what they're
4:56
Speaker 1: talking about and they know their business. So for me,
4:59
Speaker 1: I like to consume as much information as possible and
5:02
Speaker 1: get as much context as possible from as many people
5:05
Speaker 1: as possible. That way we're well armed and we're equipped
5:09
Speaker 1: to deal with this story as it evolves. He said,
5:13
Speaker 1: I have not seen sufficient information to establish a motive
5:17
Speaker 1: at this stage. Currently, this appears to be a thrill kill.
5:21
Speaker 1: The thrill could be emotional excitement or sexual. It could
5:25
Speaker 1: also be the thrill of executing the perfect murder. And
5:29
Speaker 1: that's certainly something we have to keep on the table.
5:33
Speaker 1: In my opinion, considering we don't know what the motivations were,
5:37
Speaker 1: I think that we can't discount anything that sounds logical. Obviously,
5:43
Speaker 1: anything that's out of there in fantasy land, that's something
5:46
Speaker 1: that I just discount right away. I don't want to
5:48
Speaker 1: hear about psychics or aliens or spirit boxes, any of
5:52
Speaker 1: that bullshit. But when we get the opinions of these experts,
5:55
Speaker 1: clinical psychologists and stuff like that, I think that that's
5:58
Speaker 1: worthwhile and certainly something that needs to be explored. And
6:02
Speaker 1: when all is said and done, it's going to be
6:04
Speaker 1: something like this. A thrill kill or he had some
6:08
Speaker 1: kind of obsession, something like that will end up being
6:11
Speaker 1: the motivation. Lamoureux, who emphasized that Kohlberger has yet to
6:16
Speaker 1: be convicted of any crime, continued, it seems as though
6:20
Speaker 1: there is some speculation, given his background in criminal studies,
6:24
Speaker 1: that this could be the motive, the thrill of outsmarting
6:27
Speaker 1: the authorities. I've always thought that that was a plausible scenario,
6:32
Speaker 1: that this guy thinks he's smarter than everybody else, thinks
6:35
Speaker 1: that he's going to get away with it, planned it
6:37
Speaker 1: for all of these months, stalked these girls allegedly. Cased
6:41
Speaker 1: the house, knew where they worked, developed patterns, and he
6:45
Speaker 1: really thought he was going to get away with it. Well,
6:47
Speaker 1: breaking news, you're not as smart as you think, my friend.
6:51
Speaker 1: The adrenaline rush and excitement of the killings is the
6:55
Speaker 1: end goal. His online encounters with the victims, if guilty
6:58
Speaker 1: and accurate, could represent stalking hunting behavior that killers of
7:02
Speaker 1: this category exhibit as a way of stoking excitement in
7:07
Speaker 1: anticipation of the murders, the thrill of the hunt. And
7:11
Speaker 1: it lines up. If you look at what happened here,
7:14
Speaker 1: according to what the probable cause affidavit tells us, then
7:18
Speaker 1: it lines up with this possibly, possibly being a thrill kill.
7:22
Speaker 1: Certainly not something that can be discarded or discounted as
7:26
Speaker 1: a theory right now. And in my opinion, a top
7:28
Speaker 1: contender for what the motivation is going to be when
7:31
Speaker 1: all is said and done. According to the psychiatrist, the
7:36
Speaker 1: murderer likely took sadistic pleasure and in the suffering inflicted
7:40
Speaker 1: on their victims. He explained creating fear, terror, and or
7:44
Speaker 1: pain in their victims will increase the intensity of the
7:47
Speaker 1: pleasure derived from their acts. The intensely personal and unusually
7:51
Speaker 1: violent nature of the murders, a large fixed blade such
7:54
Speaker 1: as a K-bar military knife, supports this. This process of hunting,
8:00
Speaker 1: stalking their victims, culminating in violent homicides is intensely pleasurable
8:04
Speaker 1: to these individuals, similar to the rush of narcotic drugs.
8:10
Speaker 1: The actual act sometimes is the aphrodisiac for these people.
8:15
Speaker 1: And usually you'll hear about a killer like this engaging
8:19
Speaker 1: in sexual assault or sexual abuse, something like that. But
8:22
Speaker 1: some of them, the act itself, the murder itself is
8:26
Speaker 1: the sexual gratification. And I'm not saying that's what happened here.
8:30
Speaker 1: I don't know. But we have seen many, many, many
8:34
Speaker 1: killers in the past exhibit these same sorts of behavior.
8:38
Speaker 1: Lamoureux emphasized that his comments were speculative as information regarding
8:44
Speaker 1: the defendant is extremely limited at this time. And there's
8:48
Speaker 1: no doubt. Everything that we talk about is pure speculation
8:51
Speaker 1: at this point. And it's going to stay that way.
8:55
Speaker 1: until either the gag order is lifted or we get
8:58
Speaker 1: to the trial portion of what's going on here. Because
9:01
Speaker 1: with that gag order, no official sources are going to
9:04
Speaker 1: come out and talk about what's going on behind the scenes.
9:08
Speaker 1: That's over and done with. But there's going to be trickles.
9:12
Speaker 1: There's going to be leaks. And you're going to hear
9:14
Speaker 1: from a lot of these experts who are building profiles
9:18
Speaker 1: on the alleged murderer, Brian Koberger, and using their expertise
9:22
Speaker 1: to do so. He added the authorities have been uncharacteristically
9:27
Speaker 1: non-forthcoming with information, which suggests they are very concerned about
9:31
Speaker 1: protecting the integrity of the investigation itself and subsequent prosecution. Well,
9:37
Speaker 1: if that's the case, they better make sure they deal
9:39
Speaker 1: with that potential conflict of interest because that could end
9:43
Speaker 1: up being real bad for everybody involved, the state, the defendant,
9:48
Speaker 1: and the victim's families. So if the integrity of the
9:50
Speaker 1: case is so important the way they say it is,
9:53
Speaker 1: then they need to make sure that they're doing everything
9:56
Speaker 1: in their power to protect the integrity of the case
9:59
Speaker 1: and not just stamping out transparency. Police have yet to
10:04
Speaker 1: recover the murder weapon used to kill the four students,
10:06
Speaker 1: though they did recover a knife sheath at the crime scene.
10:10
Speaker 1: Cara Kernodle, the mother of Zanna, has indicated she does
10:13
Speaker 1: not want Kohlberger to face the death penalty if convicted.
10:17
Speaker 1: Speaking to News Nation, she said, I want to see
10:20
Speaker 1: him pay for what he's done. I'm not interested in
10:22
Speaker 1: a death penalty. That's not who I am. I don't
10:25
Speaker 1: believe in that. But I do believe he should spend
10:27
Speaker 1: the rest of his days in prison. The city of
10:30
Speaker 1: Moscow Police Department has been contacted for comment. And I
10:34
Speaker 1: don't know why they continue to do that. They're not
10:36
Speaker 1: going to comment on any of this at this point,
10:38
Speaker 1: considering that gag order. So until we either get that
10:43
Speaker 1: gag order lifted or we get to trial, we'll continue
10:46
Speaker 1: to rely on the opinions and the breakdowns of these
10:50
Speaker 1: various experts. All right, everybody, that's going to do it
10:54
Speaker 1: for this one. All of the information that goes along
10:57
Speaker 1: with this episode can be found in the description box.
11:01
Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome back to the program. As
11:04
Speaker 1: the days tick by and we get closer to the
11:07
Speaker 1: Brian Koberger trial kicking off, we're learning a lot more
11:10
Speaker 1: from the prosecutors and the defense in the new filings
11:14
Speaker 1: that continue to hit the docket pretty much on a
11:16
Speaker 1: daily basis. And we're learning now that cameras trace Brian
11:20
Speaker 1: Koberger and the victim's alleged routes before the Idaho homicides.
11:26
Speaker 1: So today we have an article from the Idaho Statesman
11:29
Speaker 1: and the headline. Cameras trace Brian Kohlberger victim's alleged route
11:33
Speaker 1: before Idaho homicides. This article was authored by Kevin Fixler.
11:39
Speaker 1: Surveillance camera video that investigators used to build their case
11:42
Speaker 1: in the University of Idaho student homicide is expected to
11:46
Speaker 1: be played at defendant Brian Kohlberger's upcoming murder trial, with
11:50
Speaker 1: prosecutors planning to show jurors how footage and the resulting
11:54
Speaker 1: timeline point to him as the lone suspect. Police canvassed
11:58
Speaker 1: the Moscow neighborhood near the off-campus house on King Road
12:02
Speaker 1: where the four U of I undergraduates were found dead
12:05
Speaker 1: in November of 2022 and obtained recorded video from homes
12:09
Speaker 1: and area businesses to help narrow the possible time of
12:12
Speaker 1: the crime. The victims were seniors Kaylee Gonsalves and Madison Mogan,
12:16
Speaker 1: both 21, juniors Zanna Kernodle and freshman Ethan Chapin, both 20. Kohlberger, 30,
12:23
Speaker 1: is charged with four counts of first-degree murder, and prosecutors
12:27
Speaker 1: intend to seek the death penalty if a jury finds
12:29
Speaker 1: him guilty at his capital murder trial this summer in Boise.
12:34
Speaker 1: At the time, he was a graduate student at Washington
12:37
Speaker 1: State University on the other side of the Idaho State
12:40
Speaker 1: line in Pullman, Washington. The four students' stabbing deaths were
12:44
Speaker 1: initially thought to have happened in a 25-minute window between
12:48
Speaker 1: 4 and 4.25 a.m., the probable cause affidavit read. But
12:52
Speaker 1: after further law enforcement review of surveillance cameras, From more
12:56
Speaker 1: than 20 locations, prosecutors allege the four victims were killed
13:00
Speaker 1: in a 13-minute span between 4.07 and 4.20 a.m., according
13:05
Speaker 1: to recent court filings. And that, of course, has brought
13:08
Speaker 1: out all the weirdos. Oh, there's no way somebody can
13:10
Speaker 1: kill four people in 13 minutes. Meanwhile, the four people
13:14
Speaker 1: are drunk and sleeping. Not exactly what I'd call ready
13:17
Speaker 1: for a fight. And I think that with the element
13:21
Speaker 1: of surprise, there's no doubt that somebody could do what
13:24
Speaker 1: happened here and could do it on their own. So
13:28
Speaker 1: I think the whole entire scenario or the theory that
13:31
Speaker 1: people are pitching that there was more than one murderer
13:33
Speaker 1: is ridiculous. There is zero evidence pointing to that. Now, look,
13:38
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I wouldn't look at the evidence.
13:40
Speaker 1: I most certainly would. Just like in everything else we cover,
13:43
Speaker 1: I don't have an ax to grind with Brian Koberger.
13:45
Speaker 1: I don't know the dude, but the facts are what
13:47
Speaker 1: they are. And the evidence that's been compiled against Brian
13:51
Speaker 1: Kohlberger is very, very strong when you braid it all together.
13:55
Speaker 1: Led by attorney Ann Taylor, Kohlberger's public defense team has
13:59
Speaker 1: maintained his innocence throughout court proceedings since his arrest in
14:02
Speaker 1: late December of 2022. That police canvassed for video footage
14:07
Speaker 1: to help the investigation included local businesses in downtown Moscow,
14:11
Speaker 1: where Gonsalves and Mogan, college roommates and best friends since childhood,
14:15
Speaker 1: were out together late on November 12th into early November 13th.
14:20
Speaker 1: Surveillance video from 14 cameras at a local bar showed
14:23
Speaker 1: that they left at about 1.37 a.m. and arrived at 1.43 a.m.
14:28
Speaker 1: to a food truck parked near Friendship Square. Footage showed
14:32
Speaker 1: the two women spent about 10 minutes there before they
14:36
Speaker 1: headed home to 1122 King Road, the court filings read.
14:40
Speaker 1: And when this was all first breaking, there was a
14:42
Speaker 1: lot of talk about that food truck and what was
14:45
Speaker 1: going on with the people around it who were interacting
14:48
Speaker 1: with Kaylee and Madison. Now, obviously, that all turned out
14:51
Speaker 1: to be a bunch of nothing. But the way people
14:54
Speaker 1: were speculating and the things people were saying were just crazy.
14:58
Speaker 1: People were sure that so-and-so was responsible because of his
15:02
Speaker 1: body language or because he was looking sideways at Kaylee
15:07
Speaker 1: during the interactions at the food truck. All kinds of
15:09
Speaker 1: crazy shit. But whenever there's a tragedy such as this
15:13
Speaker 1: and there's no answers, there's going to be people who
15:16
Speaker 1: fill the void and come up with their own speculation
15:18
Speaker 1: and their own theories, right? And I certainly have no
15:21
Speaker 1: problem with that. People are going to speculate. People are
15:23
Speaker 1: going to theorize. It's when people act like they have
15:26
Speaker 1: the absolute information. When that information isn't available, that's a problem. Oh,
15:32
Speaker 1: I know so-and-so. No, you don't. How do you know that?
15:34
Speaker 1: What you mean is, I think. Because with the nature
15:37
Speaker 1: of this case and the gag order and the lack
15:39
Speaker 1: of official information, we're all at the mercy of what's
15:42
Speaker 1: in those court documents. So as far as information goes,
15:45
Speaker 1: it's an even playing field, basically. Video retrieved from nearby
15:49
Speaker 1: Main Street businesses Cafe Artista and Moscow Bagel and Deli
15:54
Speaker 1: helped fill the gap, prosecutors said. Other security camera footage
15:58
Speaker 1: that leaked in December of 2022, about two weeks before
16:01
Speaker 1: Kohlberger's arrest, appeared to show Gonsalves and Mogan walking with
16:06
Speaker 1: a male companion from the local bar, Corner Club, to
16:08
Speaker 1: the Grub Truck food truck. And when all of this
16:11
Speaker 1: was first breaking, I thought that the person, who ended
16:14
Speaker 1: up being Jack, that they called a bunch of times,
16:17
Speaker 1: was responsible for what happened. But as the evidence rolled in,
16:20
Speaker 1: it was apparent that that wasn't the case. Because it
16:23
Speaker 1: was just straight up chaos in the early hours of
16:25
Speaker 1: this investigation. Nobody knew shit. Sure, everybody had a theory,
16:30
Speaker 1: everybody had some speculation, but nobody really knew what was what.
16:34
Speaker 1: So at that point, pretty much everybody was a suspect. Still,
16:37
Speaker 1: more surveillance video from a farmer's insurance branch assisted police
16:41
Speaker 1: in understanding on Salvas and Mogan's movements before they received
16:44
Speaker 1: a ride home from a private party at about 1.56 a.m.,
16:48
Speaker 1: police said. And all of this is going to be
16:50
Speaker 1: crucial for the prosecution when they're building that timeline in
16:53
Speaker 1: the courtroom. And when you add that up with all
16:55
Speaker 1: the other work product that they're working on, all the
16:57
Speaker 1: other exhibits, all the other evidence, it's going to lead
17:00
Speaker 1: to a timeline that is not only on paper, but
17:04
Speaker 1: they're going to have a video that recreates the timeline,
17:07
Speaker 1: recreates the pathway that the alleged killer took. And that's
17:11
Speaker 1: really strong evidence. You get that kind of evidence in
17:15
Speaker 1: front of you as a juror and you're saying to yourself, man,
17:18
Speaker 1: there is a lot here. There is a lot to
17:21
Speaker 1: go on. We have all this circumstantial video. We have
17:24
Speaker 1: all of these pings. We have the purchase history of
17:27
Speaker 1: the knife. And then you add it all up and
17:29
Speaker 1: you glue it together with the DNA on the sheath
17:32
Speaker 1: of the knife that Brian Koberger allegedly purchased. That, my friends,
17:37
Speaker 1: is pretty strong evidence. And when you start talking about
17:40
Speaker 1: the DNA portion of it, forget it. Once you have
17:44
Speaker 1: DNA like the DNA we see here, unless his team
17:47
Speaker 1: can find a way to get it tossed... that's going
17:49
Speaker 1: to spell doom for Brian Kohlberger. Just like I told
17:52
Speaker 1: you that the Cassie video is going to spell doom
17:54
Speaker 1: for Diddy. Same shit here. And if you remember back
17:58
Speaker 1: to the Alec Murdoch trial, it was the digital evidence
18:00
Speaker 1: that sunk him too. And when all is said and
18:03
Speaker 1: done here up in Moscow, I think that this digital
18:05
Speaker 1: evidence is going to end up writing the tale. It's
18:08
Speaker 1: going to tell the story. The question is, is that
18:11
Speaker 1: story going to match up with what the government's telling
18:14
Speaker 1: us and lead us to Brian Kohlberger? Matt Manderville, who
18:19
Speaker 1: operates one of the two Farmers Insurance offices in Moscow,
18:22
Speaker 1: told the Idaho Statesman Police called him in the weeks
18:26
Speaker 1: after the student homicides to ask whether he had any
18:29
Speaker 1: security footage from his building, which sits just off the
18:31
Speaker 1: main road connecting Moscow and Pullman, but he did not. Kelly.
18:37
Speaker 1: Kimberling Gilder, the city's other farmer's agent, whose office is
18:40
Speaker 1: on Main Street, where Gonsalves and Mogan were walking early
18:44
Speaker 1: on November 13th, declined to answer the question and directed
18:47
Speaker 1: the statesman, the Moscow police, for anything further. So that
18:51
Speaker 1: means that their footage was used. But the gag order
18:55
Speaker 1: means they can't say shit about it. So they have
18:57
Speaker 1: to refer people to the police or the prosecutor or
19:00
Speaker 1: the court. But it's certainly a tell that they didn't
19:02
Speaker 1: say anything and the other person, Mr. Manderville, did. Prosecutors
19:07
Speaker 1: say they no longer plan to rely on the farmer's
19:09
Speaker 1: insurance surveillance video during trial. Meanwhile, Kernodle and Chapin, who
19:13
Speaker 1: were dating, were at his fraternity Sigma Chi from about
19:17
Speaker 1: 9 p.m. on November 12th to about 1.45 a.m. on
19:20
Speaker 1: November 13th, the affidavit said. They arrived back. about the
19:25
Speaker 1: time to the King Road property, located about 400 feet
19:28
Speaker 1: away from the fraternity house as the crow flies, where
19:31
Speaker 1: Kernodle lived with Gonsalves, Mogan, and two other female roommates
19:35
Speaker 1: who went unharmed in the early morning attack. Kernodle and
19:38
Speaker 1: Chapin actually returned to the King Road house after 2 a.m.,
19:42
Speaker 1: according to recent court filings, and still to this day
19:45
Speaker 1: there's two nods out there that say that the fraternity
19:48
Speaker 1: had something to do with these murders. I'm convinced that
19:51
Speaker 1: people just say shit to say it. Now, look, I
19:53
Speaker 1: understand talking about that in the very beginning when we
19:55
Speaker 1: didn't know anything. But to continue on with your bullshit
20:00
Speaker 1: when there's evidence that points clearly to somebody else is
20:02
Speaker 1: just crazy, in my opinion. Suspect vehicle number one circled
20:06
Speaker 1: King Road area at least five times. Investigators obtained hours
20:10
Speaker 1: of footage from at least five cameras around Pullman, including
20:13
Speaker 1: the WSU campus, to track a white sedan believed to
20:17
Speaker 1: be the same vehicle recorded near the King Road house
20:19
Speaker 1: the morning of the homicides, the affidavit said. An FBI
20:23
Speaker 1: vehicle identification expert determined the car to be a white
20:27
Speaker 1: Hyundai Elantra from 2011 to 2016, police said, and labeled
20:32
Speaker 1: it suspect vehicle number one. Koberger owned a 2015 white
20:35
Speaker 1: Hyundai Elantra, and the FBI expert initially believed the vehicle
20:41
Speaker 1: to be a 2011 through 2013 model, but later revised
20:45
Speaker 1: it to extend to 2016, police said. And the weirdo
20:49
Speaker 1: Koberger fans, they'll latch onto that and say, look, it's
20:52
Speaker 1: not the right vehicle, you got the wrong guy, you
20:54
Speaker 1: got the wrong bushy eyebrows. Unfortunately for them, the evidence
20:59
Speaker 1: points directly to their guy. The only question is, will
21:02
Speaker 1: the prosecution be able to make that evidence stick? Kohlberger's
21:05
Speaker 1: defense pushed to bar the FBI expert from using the
21:08
Speaker 1: phrase Suspect Vehicle 1 about the car seen in different
21:11
Speaker 1: surveillance videos while testifying at trial. His attorneys argued that
21:16
Speaker 1: doing so was unfairly prejudicial to their client because labeling
21:19
Speaker 1: the cars from various bits of footage as the same
21:22
Speaker 1: vehicle is speculative. But Judge Stephen Hippler denied the request,
21:27
Speaker 1: ruling that there was no legal basis for its exclusion.
21:30
Speaker 1: And he's not wrong. That's what it is. Suspect vehicle
21:32
Speaker 1: number one. Nobody's saying that it's Brian Koberger's vehicle yet.
21:36
Speaker 1: Simply suspect vehicle number one. The white sedan was first
21:39
Speaker 1: recorded in Pullman at 2.44 a.m. on November 13th as
21:43
Speaker 1: it headed east on State Route 270 in the direction
21:46
Speaker 1: of Moscow, police said. It was recorded again at 3.02 a.m.
21:51
Speaker 1: by a surveillance camera at Floyd's Cannabis Company located just
21:54
Speaker 1: off Route 270, prosecutors said. Maybe whoever was driving that
21:59
Speaker 1: vehicle should have stopped over at Floyd's, got themselves a blunt,
22:02
Speaker 1: and calmed the fuck down. At 3.26am, cameras at three
22:06
Speaker 1: residences in the 700 block of Indian Hills Drive in
22:09
Speaker 1: Moscow picked up the same vehicle, prosecutors alleged. Two minutes later,
22:13
Speaker 1: at 3.28am, surveillance footage at Sunset Mart, gas station in Moscow,
22:19
Speaker 1: recorded the car, turned west about a half mile away,
22:22
Speaker 1: and headed in the direction of the King Road house.
22:25
Speaker 1: Footage from a security camera on the neighboring house at
22:29
Speaker 1: 1112 King Road first recorded the vehicle in the area
22:31
Speaker 1: at 3.30 a.m., prosecutors said in court filings. Over the
22:35
Speaker 1: next 34 minutes, it circled the neighborhood at least five
22:39
Speaker 1: times before it appeared at the park at 4.07 a.m.,
22:42
Speaker 1: they said. So yeah, not looking good for Brian Koberger, right?
22:46
Speaker 1: Now people are going to say, well, we don't know
22:48
Speaker 1: it's his car. How can you prove it? Trust me,
22:51
Speaker 1: the FBI is going to prove it. The vehicle matching
22:54
Speaker 1: the description of Vehicle 1 exits the frame traveling west
22:57
Speaker 1: in the direction of the victim's residence, prosecutors wrote. There
23:01
Speaker 1: is no subsequent vehicle activity captured for approximately 13 minutes
23:06
Speaker 1: after the headlights are seen. At 4.20 a.m., the white
23:09
Speaker 1: sedan leaves the King Road area at a high rate
23:12
Speaker 1: of speed and appeared to turn west onto Taylor Avenue
23:15
Speaker 1: to exit the area on the road behind the neighborhood,
23:18
Speaker 1: prosecutors said in court filings. So what was this car
23:21
Speaker 1: doing speeding away from the scene of the crime? And
23:24
Speaker 1: when you add that all together with everything else we know,
23:27
Speaker 1: all this other video, at least in my opinion, it
23:30
Speaker 1: paints a damning picture of Brian Koberger and his activities.
23:36
Speaker 1: At 5.26 a.m., a vehicle matching the same description is
23:40
Speaker 1: next recorded on surveillance footage at E & S Services
23:44
Speaker 1: at 1300 Johnson Road in Pullman, prosecutors said. Footage from
23:49
Speaker 1: security cameras at Sunset Mar gas station in Pullman showed
23:52
Speaker 1: the car headed north on State Route 270. Cameras on
23:56
Speaker 1: the WSU campus recorded the vehicle making its way north
23:59
Speaker 1: near Beasley Coliseum, which was about a mile from Kohlberger's
24:04
Speaker 1: student apartment. Kohlberger's closely watched case is scheduled for trial
24:09
Speaker 1: to begin with jury selection in late July. It's expected
24:12
Speaker 1: to extend into November. So look, the evidence continues to
24:16
Speaker 1: roll in. And I think that as we get closer
24:20
Speaker 1: to trial, obviously, we're going to get a better idea
24:23
Speaker 1: of what the prosecution is doing. And I think that's
24:26
Speaker 1: starting to formulate right now. And we're starting to get
24:28
Speaker 1: a much better idea from these court filings that have
24:31
Speaker 1: recently hit the docket. And then you add to that
24:34
Speaker 1: the orders that we've seen from Judge Hippler in regards
24:36
Speaker 1: to these motions. And I don't think it's looking good
24:39
Speaker 1: for Brian Kohlberger. And I think that unless something drastic
24:42
Speaker 1: happens before the trial, I think that Brian Kohlberger is
24:45
Speaker 1: in for a very rough ride. in the weeks and
24:48
Speaker 1: months ahead. And like usual, we'll be here the whole
24:50
Speaker 1: entire time following along with all the twists and turns
24:54
Speaker 1: as the state of Idaho continues to make its case
24:57
Speaker 1: against Brian Kohlberger. All of the information that goes with
25:00
Speaker 1: this episode can be found in the description box. What's
25:04
Speaker 1: up everyone and welcome back to the program. The situation
25:09
Speaker 1: up in Moscow with Brian Kohlberger remains fluid and things
25:13
Speaker 1: continue to evolve basically on a day-to-day basis. However, a
25:18
Speaker 1: lot of that's happening behind the scenes. And a lot
25:20
Speaker 1: of it's happening under seal and under the auspices of
25:25
Speaker 1: the gag order. So all we get really is a
25:28
Speaker 1: little tidbit of what's really going on. But every now
25:31
Speaker 1: and then, during one of these court proceedings, we'll get
25:34
Speaker 1: a little nugget of something that's very, very interesting. And
25:38
Speaker 1: in the recent proceedings that Koberger had last week, we
25:42
Speaker 1: got one of those little golden nuggets. And according to
25:45
Speaker 1: the lawyers... And the prosecutors? Well, Brian Kohlberger wasn't stalking
25:50
Speaker 1: any of those victims. So, let's dive into this article
25:54
Speaker 1: from the Idaho Statesman, and let's try and get some
25:57
Speaker 1: clarity here. Headline, Prosecutor Brian Kohlberger, Idaho college student homicide suspect,
26:03
Speaker 1: did not stalk victim. This article was authored by Kevin Fixler.
26:08
Speaker 1: Brian Kohlberger, the man accused of killing four University of
26:12
Speaker 1: Idaho students, did not stalk one of the victims. Attorneys
26:15
Speaker 1: on both sides of the capital murder case said Wednesday,
26:19
Speaker 1: one of the few issues on which they agreed at
26:22
Speaker 1: a combative court hearing that appeared to be setting the
26:24
Speaker 1: tone for trial. And there is zero doubt this is
26:28
Speaker 1: going to be contentious. This is what I've said from
26:31
Speaker 1: the very beginning. Whenever you have something going on like
26:34
Speaker 1: we have going on up in Moscow, both sides are
26:37
Speaker 1: going to be firing salvo after salvo to try and
26:41
Speaker 1: get that narrative out. bouncing in the direction that they
26:44
Speaker 1: wanted to bounce in. Reports that the defendant followed one
26:49
Speaker 1: of the victims on social media also were deemed false
26:52
Speaker 1: as the lead prosecutor traded barbs with Koberger's defense about
26:56
Speaker 1: whether they had violated the judge's order not to make
26:59
Speaker 1: comments about the case outside of court. And definitely there
27:03
Speaker 1: was talk about Koberger following them on Instagram, following them
27:08
Speaker 1: on different social media platforms. So I think it's interesting
27:11
Speaker 1: that we're getting a little bit of confirmation one way
27:14
Speaker 1: or the other, at least as of now, according to
27:18
Speaker 1: the prosecutor and Kohlberger's lawyers. He wasn't following them on
27:22
Speaker 1: social media and he wasn't stalking them. New details emerged
27:26
Speaker 1: in the closely watched case during testimony from a trial
27:29
Speaker 1: consultant the defense hired to contact prospective jurors and help
27:33
Speaker 1: gauge potential bias against their client in the community where
27:37
Speaker 1: the crime took place. His survey work around the Moscow
27:41
Speaker 1: area drew the ire of prosecutors over questions that he
27:44
Speaker 1: included as part of the defense efforts to show that
27:47
Speaker 1: Koberger's trial needs to be moved elsewhere in the state.
27:51
Speaker 1: And again, look, they're not going to be successful here.
27:54
Speaker 1: Valiant effort, but it's not going to work out. And
27:57
Speaker 1: even if it does, does anybody out there really think
28:00
Speaker 1: that people in insert county here in Idaho have no
28:04
Speaker 1: idea what's going on when it comes to Koberger in
28:07
Speaker 1: this case? Of course they do. I don't think there's
28:10
Speaker 1: anybody in the state of Idaho unless you're Jeremiah the
28:12
Speaker 1: Mountain Man who isn't hip to what went down here
28:16
Speaker 1: and who isn't hip to the details. Now, that doesn't
28:19
Speaker 1: mean everybody knows every little minute detail, but people certainly
28:23
Speaker 1: are aware of what happened. The state is coming from
28:26
Speaker 1: a position of being practical and trying to use common
28:30
Speaker 1: sense here. Latah County Prosecutor Bill Thompson told the court
28:33
Speaker 1: on Wednesday, it seems the position of the defense is
28:37
Speaker 1: it's okay to risk tainting additional jurors in order to
28:40
Speaker 1: ascertain bias of other potential jurors. And I'm not sure
28:44
Speaker 1: that that's the way that this court should do business.
28:48
Speaker 1: And my guess is Judge Judge isn't going to allow
28:51
Speaker 1: the survey to continue. And not because a survey in
28:54
Speaker 1: general is bad. but the way that some of these
28:57
Speaker 1: questions were formed. So I think that when all is
28:59
Speaker 1: said and done, the judge will throw the survey out. Koberger, 29,
29:04
Speaker 1: is charged with four counts of first-degree murder and one
29:08
Speaker 1: count of felony burglary in the November 2022 deaths of
29:11
Speaker 1: the U of I students. The victims were senior Kaylee
29:15
Speaker 1: Gonsalves and Madison Mogan, both 21, junior Zanna Kernodle, and
29:19
Speaker 1: her freshman boyfriend Ethan Chapin, both were 20. At the time,
29:24
Speaker 1: Kohlberger was a graduate student of criminal justice and criminology
29:29
Speaker 1: at neighboring Washington State University in Pullman. The school is
29:33
Speaker 1: located about nine miles west of Moscow over the state line.
29:38
Speaker 1: And his lawyers are going to say that... the reason
29:40
Speaker 1: his cell phone pinged the towers was because, you know,
29:43
Speaker 1: it's such close proximity to Moscow. He was there handling business.
29:47
Speaker 1: He was there doing this or that or the other thing.
29:50
Speaker 1: The problem is there's no witnesses to any of that,
29:53
Speaker 1: at least that we know of. So I don't know
29:56
Speaker 1: how they're going to pitch that and think it's going
29:57
Speaker 1: to be successful, because I don't really think it's going
30:00
Speaker 1: to be. And just to add to that, if Brian
30:02
Speaker 1: Kohlberger's Wi-Fi was picked up by a router or a
30:07
Speaker 1: wireless network in the area next to the house, the
30:09
Speaker 1: house itself, then that throws all the pings right out
30:12
Speaker 1: the window, meaning they add to the foundation, right? But
30:16
Speaker 1: they really don't mean much if the Wi-Fi was connected,
30:19
Speaker 1: because that's a guarantee slam dunk home run that Kohlberger
30:24
Speaker 1: was at this property. Now, I don't know if they
30:28
Speaker 1: have that information. We haven't seen anything about that. But
30:31
Speaker 1: with all of the digital warrants that they've pulled and
30:34
Speaker 1: the geofencing warrants that were pulled, my guess is if
30:38
Speaker 1: there is anything like that, they most certainly have it.
30:42
Speaker 1: Prosecutors have already stated their intent to seek the death
30:45
Speaker 1: penalty if Kohlberger is convicted by a jury. Brian Edelman,
30:49
Speaker 1: co-founder of California-based Jury Consultancy Trial Innovations, did not dispute
30:55
Speaker 1: that some of his survey questions, specifically those concerning whether
30:59
Speaker 1: Kohlberger had stalked or followed a victim on social media,
31:02
Speaker 1: included false information. Mr. Kohlberger allegedly stalked one of the victims,
31:07
Speaker 1: Thompson said during cross-examination, referencing the survey question. That's false.
31:12
Speaker 1: You know that to be false. And your surveyors put
31:15
Speaker 1: the false information into the minds of people who were
31:17
Speaker 1: asked that question who may not have previously heard it.
31:20
Speaker 1: So he's saying basically that they're self-contaminating. And honestly, if
31:24
Speaker 1: you're putting that into people's heads, what else could you
31:27
Speaker 1: make of it, right? Why are you out there saying
31:29
Speaker 1: this sort of shit during a survey? Like it's not
31:32
Speaker 1: going to come back to the judge, like the court's
31:34
Speaker 1: not going to hear about it, and like you're not
31:35
Speaker 1: going to have to answer for your nonsense. But Edelman
31:38
Speaker 1: and the defense argued that the erroneous details already were
31:41
Speaker 1: widely available to the public in media reports about the case,
31:46
Speaker 1: and the way the questions were formed is important for
31:48
Speaker 1: collecting reliable data, he said. My focus is to assess
31:52
Speaker 1: whether or not media coverage is prejudicial, prejudicial, and whether
31:57
Speaker 1: or not it's led to opinions, Edelman said during the
32:00
Speaker 1: nearly three-hour hearing. It doesn't matter if it's true or not.
32:04
Speaker 1: Edelman affirmed that he wrote the questions and did not
32:06
Speaker 1: receive the defense's guidance on how to ask them. He
32:09
Speaker 1: testified that he has worked on several other high-profile cases,
32:13
Speaker 1: including with gag orders, and said his approach was standard
32:16
Speaker 1: practice for this kind of opinion research. Maybe standard practice
32:21
Speaker 1: in California, homie, but you're in Idaho now. And I
32:24
Speaker 1: don't know if you know this or not, but Idaho
32:25
Speaker 1: and California? Very different places. You can't taint what's tainted.
32:31
Speaker 1: The phone survey of 400 potential jurors in Latah County
32:34
Speaker 1: revealed that 45% of the respondents said that they had read, seen,
32:38
Speaker 1: or heard in the news that Kohlberger had stalked one
32:41
Speaker 1: of the victims. Of them, 81% said they believe Koberger
32:44
Speaker 1: was guilty versus 57% who said he was guilty if
32:49
Speaker 1: they were unaware of those reports. And Taylor, Koberger's lead
32:53
Speaker 1: public defender, argued Edelman's same survey needed to be conducted
32:57
Speaker 1: in at least two other counties as they continue to
32:59
Speaker 1: work toward justifying a change of venue for trial. She
33:03
Speaker 1: rejected Thompson's assertion that the defense, through its hired counsel,
33:07
Speaker 1: had violated the gag order. So if you want transparency here,
33:11
Speaker 1: and Taylor, let's just get the gag order removed. Tell
33:14
Speaker 1: Judge Judge, you want that gag order removed because Brian
33:18
Speaker 1: Koberger's getting railroaded. Then let's see what's what. That's not
33:22
Speaker 1: going to happen though, is it? And that's because this
33:24
Speaker 1: is all about the appeal later on. Mark my words,
33:27
Speaker 1: that's what's going on here. All of this bandying, all
33:31
Speaker 1: of this carrying on is all about an appeal. Later
33:33
Speaker 1: on down the road, after Koberger's found guilty... Ann Taylor
33:37
Speaker 1: is going to say he didn't get a fair shake.
33:39
Speaker 1: The jury was biased. They didn't change the venue. Yada, yada, yada.
33:44
Speaker 1: Need reference? Just go and take a look at Ghislaine Maxwell.
33:47
Speaker 1: Take a look at Alec Murdoch. Just keep going and
33:49
Speaker 1: going and going. That is how this works. And very
33:52
Speaker 1: rarely is this kind of strategy successful. Mr. Koberger is
33:57
Speaker 1: my client and his rights are the most utmost importance
33:59
Speaker 1: to me, she said, and placed her hand on the
34:02
Speaker 1: defendant's shoulder. while he was seated next to her. I'm
34:05
Speaker 1: his advocate. I want to help him. I believe in
34:08
Speaker 1: his innocence. Well, that's cool, and we're glad that you do.
34:11
Speaker 1: Everybody deserves zealous representation. In my opinion, it's very important
34:16
Speaker 1: that they get that, because of course, like I just said,
34:20
Speaker 1: the appeal is certainly on the way if they're convicted,
34:22
Speaker 1: and you don't want any kind of tomfoolery, right? You
34:26
Speaker 1: don't want an appeals court to overturn the decision made
34:29
Speaker 1: by the judge who heard the case initially. So you
34:32
Speaker 1: have to make sure everything's on the up and up.
34:34
Speaker 1: Make sure everything's locked in. That way, you're rocking and rolling.
34:38
Speaker 1: Judge John Judge of Idaho's 2nd Judicial District in Latah
34:43
Speaker 1: County acknowledged the challenge he faced in trying to find
34:46
Speaker 1: a path forward now that the false information had already
34:49
Speaker 1: been relayed to possible jurors through Edelman's survey. He indicated
34:53
Speaker 1: that the inaccurate details included in two of the nine
34:56
Speaker 1: questions asked of respondents do not exist in the court
35:00
Speaker 1: record and therefore brushed up against his standing gag order
35:03
Speaker 1: in the case. So, I mean, here we are. That happened.
35:07
Speaker 1: It's kind of unfortunate, he said, Wednesday. It's something that
35:10
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to struggle through and figure out
35:13
Speaker 1: what to do. And I understand that there's some urgency
35:15
Speaker 1: to get that out. Judge clarified that his ruminations at
35:19
Speaker 1: a hearing last week about possibly disqualifying the 400 county
35:24
Speaker 1: residents who were surveyed was not a viable solution. Thompson
35:28
Speaker 1: had suggested that That may be a potential option in
35:31
Speaker 1: addition to the defense using a revised survey without questions
35:34
Speaker 1: that include false information. Elisa Masluth, another of Kohlberger's attorneys,
35:40
Speaker 1: defended the survey work as necessary to convince Judge that
35:44
Speaker 1: an impartial jury cannot be found in Latah County. She
35:48
Speaker 1: said U.S. Supreme Court case law requires that media reports
35:51
Speaker 1: with false information be part of the analysis to justify
35:55
Speaker 1: local bias. Or it could be you're trying to get
35:57
Speaker 1: around the gag order. Let's remember the gag order throws
36:01
Speaker 1: a whole nother layer on top of this. We as
36:04
Speaker 1: a defense team have an obligation and frankly the privilege
36:07
Speaker 1: of defending Mr. Koberger and defending his right to a
36:10
Speaker 1: fair trial, Massoth said. And in doing so, in arguing
36:13
Speaker 1: the venue should be changed, we have to show you
36:16
Speaker 1: that there is presumed prejudice in this community. And look,
36:21
Speaker 1: I get it. I'm certainly not one of these people
36:23
Speaker 1: that's mad at Brian Koberger's defense team. I just think
36:27
Speaker 1: that the shots that they're shooting aren't going to find
36:29
Speaker 1: the mark. But what else are you going to do
36:32
Speaker 1: when you have a client and the evidence is piled
36:35
Speaker 1: against them? You have to take your shot. Some of
36:39
Speaker 1: the survey questions were based on the probable cause affidavit,
36:42
Speaker 1: which she said includes inaccurate details that news outlets have
36:46
Speaker 1: reported as facts. For example, the police narrative suggests that
36:50
Speaker 1: Koberger was suspected of surveilling the off-campus house on King
36:53
Speaker 1: Road where the victims were killed, including through repeat trips
36:57
Speaker 1: back and forth through Moscow and Pullman, Massas said. So,
37:01
Speaker 1: she's trying to infer that that wasn't him and that's
37:04
Speaker 1: all just inferred and those pings can't be believed. I'll
37:08
Speaker 1: reserve judgment until we get to trial there. Remember, she's
37:11
Speaker 1: trying to paint a narrative here, and her narrative is
37:14
Speaker 1: running counter to what the evidence has shown us. You
37:18
Speaker 1: can't taint what's tainted, she said. Latah County citizens have
37:21
Speaker 1: accepted the information placed before them by state actors. This
37:25
Speaker 1: is all information that's put out in the media, and
37:27
Speaker 1: having the state now claim this moral high ground is
37:30
Speaker 1: an oxymoron. See, that is a bit ridiculous, too, by Ms. Massoth.
37:36
Speaker 1: She acts like Bill Thompson was out there giving the
37:38
Speaker 1: media all this information. The affidavit was released as public information,
37:43
Speaker 1: and then from there, the media infers what the media
37:45
Speaker 1: is going to infer. But all of that bullshit ends
37:48
Speaker 1: the second court begins. And those jurors who were impaneled,
37:52
Speaker 1: they swear that oath and we're off and running. So
37:56
Speaker 1: you can talk about media bias till the cows come home,
37:59
Speaker 1: but that's not going to get you anywhere inside of
38:01
Speaker 1: a courtroom when the chips are down and those courtroom
38:04
Speaker 1: doors close. Judge said that he hoped to issue a
38:08
Speaker 1: ruling soon, but he was unlikely to deliver his decision
38:11
Speaker 1: this week. In turn, he pushed back the change of
38:13
Speaker 1: venue filing deadlines and postponed next month's scheduled hearing for
38:17
Speaker 1: arguments on the matter until late June. The deadline for
38:21
Speaker 1: Kohlberger's attorneys to submit their client's alibi if they plan
38:24
Speaker 1: to argue that defense at trial remains April 17th. In
38:28
Speaker 1: initial alibi filings, Kohlberger said that he was out driving
38:32
Speaker 1: alone overnight at the time of the U of I
38:35
Speaker 1: student homicides. Oh yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what happened.
38:39
Speaker 1: And it's convenient, right, that nobody's going to be able
38:41
Speaker 1: to corroborate that nonsense. Oh yeah, I was just having
38:44
Speaker 1: me a little drive. I was clearing my mind. I
38:47
Speaker 1: don't know about you folks, but I'm convinced. I mean,
38:49
Speaker 1: that's a great alibi. I was out having a drive.
38:52
Speaker 1: I mean, that one's going to really work with the jury.
38:54
Speaker 1: Might as well just say that a chupacabra killed these kids.
38:58
Speaker 1: Because that's how ridiculous your alibi sounds to anyone with
39:01
Speaker 1: a brain in their head. So it's going to be
39:03
Speaker 1: interesting to see what Judge Judge comes up with here.
39:06
Speaker 1: But I highly doubt that the venue is going to
39:08
Speaker 1: be moved. And if anything, I think Judge will split
39:11
Speaker 1: the baby and he'll bring a jury in from outside
39:15
Speaker 1: the county. So we'll see how that all evolves. But
39:18
Speaker 1: that's going to do it for this one. All of
39:19
Speaker 1: the information that goes with this episode can be found
39:23
Speaker 1: in the description box.