Latest / Human Equilibrium: Wise Leadership in the Age of AI / Don’t Automate the Human Layer: Trust in the Age of AI – with Adam Rosendahl
Transcript
- speaker-0: like really big changes happen and then it's not acknowledged and there's no ritual or way for people to actually recognize like what how things were and how things are now. It c creates a lot of compartmentalization and perhaps resentment and like even like a disillusionment and then ultimately like receding from the role and then just kind of doing the bare minimum. I think it's extremely challenging for a leader to acknowledge these kind of like huge changes. If they're not acknowledged, like the cost of it is incredibly unproductive. speaker-1: Welcome to Human Equilibrium, a podcast about leadership at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom. I'm Dan Molly, a leadership advisor, executive coach, and facilitator. On the show, I talk with founders, people leaders, and experts in AI and transformation. Together, we explore how AI is changing leadership, organizations, and the experience of being human. In these conversations, we step beneath the hype and the doom to explore what leaders are really experiencing with AI and how we can leverage increasingly powerful technology while strengthening the human leadership capacities needed to guide it wisely. This is Human Equilibrium. My guest today is Adam Rosendahl. Adam brings connection and creativity to the places that need it most. He's the founder of Late Night Art. And creator of Human Trust Protocol, a method that uses art, music, and dialogue to interrupt old patterns and build trust quickly. Over the last 14 years, he and his team have led more than 800 experiences across 28 countries, working everywhere from Google and Nike to the California Department of Public Health, universities, and probation officers in Kentucky. In 2026, he brought his work to Ted. Adam is a lifelong artist based in San Francisco. And Adam, hey, welcome to the show. speaker-0: Alright. Thank you so much Dan for having me. speaker-1: Glad to have you. So I'd love to start off just by hearing a bit of your story. Like what's the short story of how you came to do the work that you're doing today? speaker-0: I feel like it in some ways started when we met when we were both living in Seattle in 2010. I was an AmeriCorps member working for an amazing nonprofit that did youth empowerment work through the arts. And ⁓ I had a deep belief around the power of the arts to build connection with people across differences and to help people find direction in their life. And I was working with young people in middle school and high schools. ⁓ and what I was doing in the classroom setting. sort of organically became something that I was doing with adults in more of a nightlife format. And I I ended up developing this methodology that used music and storytelling and collaborative art ⁓ as a tool to connect people across differences, to straddle challenging conversations and ultimately to kind of shift people's perceptions and ideas about each other. and that work went from the classroom to this nightlife event to becoming a a team development program and ultimately a leadership development program that I've been leading for the last fourteen years. So it's had a really organic life to it. And it's hard to even describe like how one step led to the next, but where I am now, as you mentioned, is that we have eight facilitators ⁓ across the world, one in Germany, one in the UK, in the East Coast, the Midwest, and in the Bay Area. And we mostly kick off Leadership and executive off sites with this two hour experience. That's all about humanizing people beyond the roles they play at work ⁓ and creating the trust and collaboration in a really short period of time that allows them to make really big decisions and solve problems in the room. speaker-1: Yeah, I love that Adam. And I've had the privilege of getting to be part of one of these events and it is really special. But I wonder for those who haven't yet, can you bring us into a little bit of the visceral experience, like the feeling, the sight, the sound of what it's like to be part of Late Night Art. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean I was leading an event two days ago in Menlo Park with an eighteen person team that it was the the sales enablement team of a a large company and they had just gone through a significant reorg and there was a new leader ⁓ and there is a lot of change and so part of what I was doing is creating a fresh page and creating a new opportunity for this group of people to Build a new culture and to have a sense of cohesion and trust and empathy and understanding with who's in the room, who do they actually work with. Since so many teams are remote now, it also when they are in person, it's this rare moment to actually create a sense of the human beyond the square on the screen. ⁓ and so they walk into the room and there's these long banquet style tables that are covered with drawing paper and art supplies. I'm at the front of the room with a podium playing music and they immediately have some idea of what's gonna happen. A lot of people have an immediate kind of judgment around like, I'm not creative, I'm not an artist, what is this? and as I'm running them through this two hour process, they they pretty quickly realize that if this is not actually an art class or an art program, it's really about connection. And it's about understanding each other in a very different format and way that kind of like s pushes beyond the normal pattern that we have of Interacting with each other, especially if we have a perception of this person's in accounting, this person's in sales, this person's in marketing, and we have like a certain association with them. it could become really powerful when we kind of push through that and we have a totally different sense of who people are. So the whole point of the program is leading people through a series of steps where they're taking risks, they're they're talking about aspects of leadership and collaboration, and every step of the way, is an experience that leads to a debrief where they can go deeper into their their own understanding of how people work and what shaped them to become who they are. So by the end, ultimately people are talking about a challenge that they're faced with in their work or in their leadership. ⁓ and where the guard is dropped down enough where they can really generously share and help each other solve their challenges in real time. speaker-1: That's incredible. And you know, one of the things that I love about that is just how quickly that trust is built and that vulnerability becomes possible, where so often we're moving so quickly that it may not feel as accessible to be so real together. And so you sort of drop the armor by inviting them into this possibility that a limitation they've had around who they are, not being an artist, not being creative. that that's actually not true and that there's more space for them to expand and grow into and own and claim for themselves, right? And so by doing that, it seems like you're inviting them to also get curious about how they could be more connected with one another. speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. And people just have really they have really strong i like ideas about who other people are on their team. You know, this person is you know it's just who they are and they you know and so a couple of days ago there was this beautiful moment between two people. One of them lives in Singapore and one of them lives, I think, in Australia and they you know, they spend one day a year in person. ⁓ and they didn't know each other very well. And they had this really deep moment where they're they f the The woman ⁓ felt really deeply seen by this this other man who lives in Singapore, ⁓ to the point where it brought her to tears. And they had this like beautiful moment of ⁓ I guess like feeling seen and heard by each other, that I'm almost positive they'll never forget. And I think like what is the impact of that on a business ⁓ and their collaboration and how they actually show up with one another in a work environment, I have no doubt that it will lead to like an incredibly different relationship as they're working together moving forward. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, so of course this podcast is about the intersection of leadership and artificial intelligence. And one of the things that I'm really interested in is how you think about leadership. So both for you as a leader, as a founder, but also the leaders that you work with all around the world. ⁓ tell me a little bit about that. speaker-0: Yeah, I have the honor of getting to walk into the room with the leadership teams of a lot of the biggest companies in the world and to lead this program as a way for them to connect with each other and solve problems in this really unique format. So I also get to see a lot of different types of leaders that are modeling a style of leadership ⁓ in different organizations. ⁓ and I also have had the opportunity to build my company and now to have a team of eight facilitators and to be doing this work across the world. And so when I think about leadership, I'm a I'm a huge fan of leaders that are able to identify the strengths in others and like allow other people full agency to lead ⁓ and not to necessarily be have one person who's completely running the show. So my style is very collaborative. I'd say like as a facilitator and a leader I'm more collaborative and relational versus authoritative and top down. and so I have a lot of respect when I see leaders where there's really deep friendship and relationships that have been built across the team. And those are the leaders I feel like I respect most is when when they leave the room when people like really just can't say enough about them as people and how they kind of show up. And so sadly I feel like it's very rare. But in some ways I feel like I'm also like collecting models of leaders inside of the companies that I work with that are like inspiring w like ways of countering the the current leadership narrative, which is very for me there's a lot of really scary and toxic models of male leadership right now in the United States. it's easy to look and it's being emphasized all over. So when I find leaders that are modeling kindness and relationality and Really like a human way of leading, that's that's something that I am always looking for and trying to model my best. speaker-1: Hmm. Yeah, I appreciate that. So collaborative leadership rather than top-down authoritarian leadership. And I think something you said was really interesting, which is like it matters what are people saying when you're not in the room, you know, and are they proactively talking about their appreciation for you or your leadership or are they hiding their feelings because you know they they feel otherwise. So I appreciate that you have such a view and a lens into leaders today. And what I want to understand a little bit more about is like, have there been any specific role models for you, like a specific leader or two that has helped you understand and step into more of that collaborative leadership? speaker-0: Yeah, there's there is one, ⁓ his name is Nick Meta and he was the CEO of Gainsight, which is a a customer success company that has gone public and has grown quite significantly and he recently stepped down and is now the chairman of the board. but one of their values is childlike joy and creativity and he really was ⁓ adamant on modeling these values at every single off site and every single gathering that they would do. So part of it is that he would always have really fun shoes that was his signature, you know, and just kind of dress in like a creatively playful way. But there was a huge emphasis around bringing like infusing joy and having a sense of wonder at their team gatherings and not having it be business as usual. So infusing like a a layer of surprise and delight ⁓ and just And kind of in really like taking people out of the the the kind of like corporate business as usual format. And so we worked really well together in that way because that's in some ways my specialty. But I just loved seeing how he would I mean there's there's just there's so many layers to it of like calling people by name, knowing their families, like like bringing in like fun little like surprises, ⁓ like musical interludes and gifts and like you know, he would always do like like kind of covers of Taylor Swift's songs but using customer success language that was just like ridiculous but also really fun. So these are just a couple of examples, but I'd say like across the company when I talk to people, they just adored him. speaker-1: Hm, yeah. That's a great example. And then I guess I'm curious, like, as AI acceleration is hitting harder and harder, you know, and there's so much pressure to automate and augment and sort of the race to efficiency, how do you see that impacting the way that leaders are showing up, if at all? speaker-0: What I see right now in most offsites is that it's about AI adoption and most people are getting instructions that they need to learn AI like faster. They need to do it yes like by yesterday. And so there's a level of intensity around it that is really disorienting and scary for people. so most off sites are focused completely on AI adoption and I tend to play the role of being the human component. For the first two hours of like a two or three day ⁓ off site, for instance. So yeah, I think that there's a level of like urgency and just kind of like scrambling as fast as they can to try to learn. which doesn't I don't think it bodes very well with like the team dynamics and feelings right now. So I think that there's Yeah. There's just a lot of people that are just trying to catch up and feeling really overwhelmed. That's kind of what I'm noticing as a theme. speaker-1: Yeah, it's interesting. And it seems like there's a bit of a domino effect of pressure in the system now where you have investors or boards putting pressure on CEOs or founders, putting pressure on exact teams, putting pressure on managers, down to frontline workers. And it's like all along the way they ha they're sitting in their own questions. They're sitting in their own disruption of their role, maybe even their identity, right? And then how do you then support the team beneath you? to navigate change even as you're very much in it with them. speaker-0: Yeah. And s sadly, you know, I think that I I we had talked about this, but I have a client ⁓ and a friend who is I'd say one of the most engaged people that I know in her company. ⁓ and I think that because of a lot of factors around change and layoffs and like different different kind of directions from leadership, like this person who was previously an incredibly engaged like full-on leader advocate is now just like stepping into a little bit of beyond beyond un there is I think there's just like a level of not sure what's gonna happen and there's so much confusion from leadership that people are feeling like way less clear or sure about their jobs. And so in this example, you know, there's a there's a kind of a like, let me just pretend like I'm working and just like l continue on as yeah, it's funny, I'm like in some ways not sure how much to share. But yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. I mean I I think that's probably something that a lot of people can relate to, whether you're a leader trying to work with your teams and keep them engaged despite teams feeling afraid or worried about AI in the macro sense, but also in the micro reality of is my role being automated away? ⁓ and I think it's it's really interesting from a leadership stance to try to embrace this technology at the same time that you kind of need your best people more than ever. You know, you can't let it be either or. It really has to be like a deep investment on the human side in order to get the most out of the tools because AI deeply empowers individuals, but at the team level, you need something else, right? You need engagement, you need effective ⁓ strategy, and you need to be listening and paying attention and present with the people around you. That's what I've been experiencing. And so I'm curious, are are yeah, like are you noticing that leaders are grappling with that even in some of these offsites? speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, I think in in some teams there's like a very strong awareness that the trust and connection that's required right now in the midst of all the change is the foundational block. ⁓ and without that, ⁓ there's just a huge amount of wasted time and energy and money, like when people don't fully trust each other and they're just making decisions without ⁓ having that layer. So yes, I'd say in a lot of the companies that I work with ⁓ already have an emphasis around culture and a really strong value around treating people well. ⁓ and so I am part of that layer. ⁓ I don't tend to get brought in by the companies that are more around the like maximizing profits at all costs without really thinking about the human trust layer. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. So what about you and your own leadership and your relationship with artificial intelligence? Are there ways that you are using AI today? speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, so I I grew up as an artist and as a facilitator and I've always been interested in human dynamics. ⁓ and I find a lot of inspiration from a lot of these courses at universities that focus around interpersonal dynamics. So, you know, like the the interpersonal dynamics course at the Stanford Graduate School of Business has been a big inspiration for me, which is nicknamed Touchy Feely. and there is There's a lot of these programs that really focus around like how do we how do we create exceptional relationships in work and in life and that these like quote unquote soft skills are actually the most important skills that any business leader can can can take on and continue to develop in themselves. I still really deeply believe that. So throughout all of the AI like wave of what's coming, ⁓ I still think, you know, developing trust and connection on a deep level with people is still one of the most important things for me as a leader. And with that, I yeah, I use I use AI all the time from a business standpoint, from you know, proposals and contracts to just creating operating procedures and like helping me hone my curriculum design for some of the workshops that I'm leading and customizing things. yeah, but I have you know some skepticism around how one might use AI to facilitate a group, for instance, ⁓ or to like create yeah. I I I have imagined that. What would that be like to have like a robot or an AI voice that is trying to facilitate a group of people and create like a positive ripple in the room and kind of like have the intuition and awareness to be able to work with different personalities and cultures and On one hand, I think that it probably could be possible, but I personally would feel extremely strange and not very good about being facilitated by a robot, that's for sure. speaker-1: Yeah, it's interesting. I imagine you wouldn't be the only one. But it would be quite fascinating as an experiment to have like Claude on audio, you know, co facilitating with you with a group and just see like what insights does do they does it bring forward, right? anyway, yeah, I I speaker-0: True, I I didn't I didn't think that AI could be a good therapist and now that is that has definitely been proof wrong. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, I mean certainly it's well used for that for that function, though I don't recommend it as a replacement for human therapy. But yes, it's ⁓ it's so fascinating how, you know, pattern recognition and ⁓ context of your life and like the the ways people are sharing really deeply with AI that they may not even feel comfortable sharing with humans in their lives, it's producing new insight. And that is supporting supporting their you know, their healing or their development. So but yeah, I guess I'm curious, like just to go back to you then for a moment, are there parts of your work where you deliberately choose not to use AI? You just said facilitation. Are there any others and why? speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, ⁓ growing up as an artist, I always chose to do things by hand and I had my own there was a little bit of a ⁓ a resistance towards the Adobe Creative Suite and going all in with digital art and I still have that desire for human imperfection and like having like, you know, hand prints and like the tactile nature of things just feels so important to me. At the same time, I started using Procreate on my iPad and drawing digitally, and now those tools have become incredibly powerful where you can actually smear with my finger and I can have that imperfection and it really looks hand done, which is cool. I think with AI there is a similar thing around sometimes the the perfection of language and the perfection of things that are edited by AI can have this like ⁓ inhuman quality to me that feels like like soulless. ⁓ and so yeah, like as the guy who represents trust and connection and humanity in business, like I do feel a pretty strong resistance towards using AI in certain parts of my business. ⁓ I mean I just think about just in terms of like my how important it is to build relationships with the different people on my team and what So yeah, I think I just think like there's a lot of things that I'm doing that I feel like it's it's very difficult for me to imagine like how I would replace that. again, this like the human the human layer is like an essential part of what I do within my own team and then also with my clients. So yeah. The business efficiencies are all like can be supplemented with AI. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it sounds like you're leveraging the tooling in the areas that don't actually require that human touch and the human connection. And then I'm wondering if you're starting to are you feeling like you have more time, energy, presence for those moments like with your team, where you really do want to be present. speaker-0: Well, it's tricky. In some ways it's like you could say all these other business sides of the business don't require the human element and we can just use it. But it's like then it it gets a little it's like it it's dicey for me because in some ways I feel like every email interaction, like every moment that I'm engaging with a client, like has the potential to have that human element. And that's that's my desire is to be that that's that's like how my business runs is like with that level of thoughtfulness and intentionality versus trying to automate it all. so I I I feel I feel a little bit like it's it's hard to some again in some ways I think I'm using AI too much right now and I'm gonna like step back. Yeah. Whereas like some some businesses I think it totally makes sense for them to automate everything. But I think for what what I am doing and what I represent, I feel like it's it's important to continue on with the h like the human touch is such a key part of what I do. speaker-1: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean it makes sense that you want a first impression, for example, like an outreach touch to feel connected to that ultimate experience that they're paying for, right? speaker-0: Yeah, that's why I've had like a really conflicted relationship with like drip email campaigns, you know, and like like automation ⁓ in general. ⁓ and even like the idea of having like a like an automatic kind of response on like a LinkedIn message or, you know, when like when I get these automated responses on LinkedIn, you know, just like just makes me s so it like kind of like pains my soul. So it's like I just I do have like a sort of tricky relationship with ⁓ with marketing and like how to maintain like the human touch, like but like to actually have a broad impact is is a important question for me. speaker-1: Well I hear you very much as a coach and a facilitator. Similar questions for me around the human touch, the first impression, and all the work that I do is very much about integrating these elements of AI acceleration and human wisdom, human leadership. And it's like, you know, if I'm not starting off with the kind of impression that I want them to take away from our work together, then how how will they even know, you know, kind of what I'm inviting them into. speaker-0: Yeah, which goes deeper into like, yeah, how are we modelling our own values and like kind of walking our walk, ⁓ you know? speaker-1: Exactly. Yeah. So I'm curious, like, I'm gonna zoom out again for a moment and just looking at the leaders and the teams that you work with, like how are you seeing AI change the pe the way that people are leading, relating to one another, etc.? We talked about this a little bit, but if you get like a little more specific around a couple examples of do you see it affecting the quality of presence people are bringing or the kind of judgment they're bringing to decision making or any other area that's standing out for you? speaker-0: I I think it's like one thing that comes up is sadly a lot of my clients I'll show up to a a sales call or a design meeting and they just got laid off this week. Or they just did a ten percent, twenty percent, thirty percent like layoff. Which is means a lot of people that I'm talking to are in the biggest stress of their life, or some people say this is the then the worst week of my life, or this is you know, so like this is pretty consistent. And so Like how is AI affecting how people show up? I'd say like there's a lot of people, I mean, who are using really intense language around like the level of fear and uncertainty that they're faced with in their job right now. So it's not specifically because of like how AI is being used in their company, but ba the co the dynamics are like really, really heightened right now, I think, in terms of like survival. ⁓ and so that affects everything. like the way that AI is actually being used and how that's impacting people's relationships within a company, I think that there already is a level of s sort of dehumanization, just not in like a super negative way, but it's just the the kind of like automated email response. People are just like a little box on the screen and we just do the bare minimum to like get the job done without really understanding or knowing each other. I think is now even intensified. So yeah, I think like for a remote team that doesn't know each other that well, that is like really just using like automated tools to get work done versus actually investing in the relationships with each other before they do that. I think there's just even more of a need to like actually have the human layer before they kind of automate their whole role and business and speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And to get into the human psychology realm for just a second, when you're in that survival mode, like there's a fight, flight, freeze kind of response, right? The parasympathetic nervous system kicks in and it's a lot harder to learn or grow or be open or vulnerable in those moments, right? And so here we have this macro moment that we're in that doesn't seem to be slowing down anytime soon. If anything, it's accelerating exponentially, where you have layoffs and you have, you know, changes in roles and whole companies are gonna be, you know, falling apart basically in the face of all these these massive transformations in our economy. ⁓ like what would be your advice to people who find themselves feeling that fear right now? But also deeply know that they wanna be connected with their coworkers. They wanna do well at their job, you know. speaker-0: Yeah. I think there's just every single time there's a change on a team, I feel like there's a need for like a a c a reset, like a kind of like flipping the light switch. And, you know, especially with leadership changes, ⁓ it's hard to just keep going forward without acknowledging like what has happened. and I think so people can c like hold on to a lot if it's not acknowledged. And so figuring out these cultural rituals for a team to be able to acknowledge the changes as they're happening and like like metaphorically kind of let like the the liquid out of their cups so they can like be empty and and like ready for whatever's coming feels pretty essential right now. So like what I do with Late Net Art, I see as one of these cultural rituals, which is like a ninety minute or a two hour experience that could be virtual or in person that allows people to have more honest conversations and talk about some of the challenges that they're facing in a more like candid way. ⁓ and be able to like really see and feel the energy of an entire team, ⁓ and then move forward with like a deeper understanding of being part of something bigger. I think that, yeah, yeah, when like really big changes happen and then it's not acknowledged and there's no ritual or or sort of way for people to actually recognize like what how things were and how things are now. ⁓ it c creates a lot of compartmentalization and perhaps resentment and like even like a disillusionment and then ultimately like receding from the role and then just kind of doing the bare minimum. And as I've been seeing with a lot of people just like describing like cosplaying work where they just like pretend like they're working every day. And like I can't imagine as a leader if you have a bunch of people who are just like pretending to work and then It's like there's there's there's a deeper thing that's happening that needs to be addressed. So I think it's extremely challenging for a leader to acknowledge these kind of like huge changes, but I think that if they're not if they're not acknowledged, like the cost of it is like i incredibly unproductive. speaker-1: Yeah. I think that's something that we skip past a lot in our society and our culture around loss and transitions that involve acknowledging what's no longer present. oftentimes in startups I've seen leaders won't even acknowledge when an employee is let go and then teams are just asking questions like do that person get let go? And it just creates so much more wasted energy than just a clear, honest acknowledgement. Right, and being able to stand in the power of here's why it happened and you know, we're moving forward. ⁓ so I think this brings in the importance of clear communication from leadership. not communication that necessarily is, you know, automated by AI and goes out in some generic flat sense, but in a way that you can actually feel and hear the care and the intentionality and the judgment of the leader through how they're communicating. And I'm just curious, like What are you seeing there in terms of the ways leaders are communicating that are most effective as their teams are going through all of this change? And maybe some ways that, you know, they could really do a lot better to be more effective. speaker-0: Yeah. Well, in the sessions that I lead, a big part of it is that there's always a power hierarchy in the room. You know, even even if it's a group of leaders, there's usually one person that people are looking to to see how they're engaging. And so one of the things that's always present is how is the the person who has the most influence in the room, how are they showing up? And so in the sessions that I offer, there's a lot of opportunities to share your personal story or relationship to what's happening and Just be a little bit more vulnerable in front of people and also share like what's not working and some of the ways in which things are not going well, perhaps. And that's the irony, is like when people share what's not going well, it builds much more trust than when they s th they talk about how everything is great, they're just crushing it. So yeah, when I watch leaders have that, like they ride that line of like appropriate levels of vulnerability where they're they're talking about some of the things that they're struggling with personally, that humanize them to the people around them. I think that is just a very effective way of just showing people that we all have stuff. And like that, you know, just be kind because we don't know the battles that people are fighting in their own mind, you know? And that it doesn't diminish their power as a leader or their influence. But like when you really can see them and like What they're doing beyond the role, it helps to really build a sense of like, ⁓ this is a real person and I I can actually get behind this person. speaker-1: Yeah. I think it's interesting that you brought up power dynamics, of course they're always at play in organizations. And oftentimes those who have the most positional power or even like just role-based power don't necessarily know all the impacts that they have on those beneath them in terms of that authority, that perceived authority, right? Or real authority. And then it's so interesting because then you have people who have sort of more soft power, who are influential but not necessarily having the the hard authority. And I guess right now it seems to me that we're kind of speaking to both of those audiences. Like, you know, when I think about leadership, it's not just something that you need a fancy title to be. Like, leadership is something that we all cultivate. It's like self-leadership. And the way that I think about this is we all need to be orienting as leaders now because we're all being asked to take on really complex, challenging, thorny, ⁓ work. You know, we're adopting AI super quickly. We're in the midst of a massive transformation process that is, yes, both technical but also deeply human and organizational and structural. And we're gonna be running these augmented workforces with humans and and agents working side by side. This future is full of unknowns, it's full of uncertainty, it's full of instability, right? And it's not going away anytime soon. So what does it look like to be a self-led leader, no matter what your position or your place, ⁓ to be able to embrace this change and adapt effectively in the face of constant disruption and acceleration. I'd be really curious your thoughts on that. speaker-0: It's it's tricky, right? Because I think like there's so many people that are losing their jobs right now. ⁓ and like that that seems that's like a big part of this conversation is like around leadership 'cause it's leaders too. You know, I just again like showed up for a meeting three nights ago and the chief talent officer of a very large company had just been laid off that week. So it's like even if you're like doing a great job of like rolling with the changes, I think Like this level of like shift in the job market is pretty difficult to like actually how do we you know, I think of like Aikido or being a martial artist and like how do you like kind of like move with the waves that are happening. I think that in some ways it's like a bigger relationship to change and I don't know. I mean I think it's I think it's tr extremely difficult. I don't think I can give advice around this 'cause I think like the level of struggle that I'm like disc like that I'm really like receiving from people and like I don't know how I would do it differently, you know. I think that having strong relationships is probably the core of it all still. So no matter what happens, like there's like a a foundation of trust and relationships that like holds us through all of the different moments and changes. I watch so many leaders who go to different companies and then they bring back the same people that they worked with previously that were their anchor, you know. And so that still feels like kind of the the foundation of the job market is like just doing really quality work and just being being aware of our you know, our reputation and the way we show up and the way that we're kind of like building speaker-1: I think that makes sense. And I know that I've been putting you on the hot seat asking for your advice. And the reality is this is all stuff that nobody really understands. And ⁓ and like I don't expect a cogent answer. What I am excited about and you've been providing is just your your thoughts, right? And what you're starting to see and feel in these rooms. And it's so fascinating because I was speaking recently with a friend of mine who works in Fortune 100 type boardroom settings. speaker-0: Totally. speaker-1: ⁓ helping with AI tooling and adoption. And one of the things that consistently came up as a theme in those conversations, as he shared with me, is that people don't really know what to do. Like they they don't really know how to navigate this yet. And to be a top leader at a top company and say, I don't know is not something that many of them are well practiced at, right? They got there because they knew. They got there because they figured out The answer one way or another. And now it's so much more, you know, having to sit with the not knowing and navigate and still move forward, even in the face of that ambiguity. And so I think like one of the things that seems to be one of the most valuable human capacities is our capacity to be with the unknown. It's like our capacity to not just seek the quick resolution or the certainty, but to stay in that unknown and that uncertainty. And be able to operate in meaningful and effective ways, even in that that position. And I think that's something that does not come easily to many of us, right? That's not something we're trained to do. It often comes through in, you know, facing the friction and the tension and the pain of life. And one of the interesting things here to bring it back to AI, of course, is AI is a way that we remove friction. We remove tension in a way, right? From interactions, from language, from You know, all the things that are humans tripping over humans, but actually are kind of endearing, that we may not want to lose so fast because they're parts of our experience that bring meaning and purpose and connection. And here we are smoothing out all of that friction and we lose the generative friction that I argue is so important for human meaning and relationship. So I guess I'd just be super curious to hear your thoughts about where should we actually be retaining some of that friction and investing in some of that friction, even though it's antithetical to this idea Of racing toward efficiency. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean this this idea of friction is such a big part of growth and a lot of the deepest relationships have gone through friction and gotten to the other side of it and have built so much more trust because they know that they can like bat like navigate through rough waters. relationally it feels like it's it's a it's a part of It's a part of friendship, it's a part of relationship, it's a part of like tr building trust in on teams. So this idea of like completely eliminating friction feels like really scary and like I just don't think that that's actually like a good goal. and I think that in life also, you know, part of having empty space to let the dust settle in our life or in our work is essential for creative thinking. Having friction and having like challenges is what helps us grow and build the muscles to do other things. So it's like a frictionless life, which is what's sort of being promised to us, ⁓ feels like a pretty dull reality. speaker-1: Yeah. I mean, I think that's a really good way to put it. That what brings meaning, what brings excitement, interest, relationship, growth, connection, trust, all of these things that are so essential to being human and to building the relationships that bring often per times purpose to our lives, right? All those things are based on this idea that we have inefficiencies, that it life is not just about racing towards smoothing out those tensions and those edges. And in fact, we might lose the muscle, the capacity to be resilient and to navigate conflict in healthy ways and to receive feedback if we're not practicing being in these moments of tension and friction together. speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, it's part of it's part of how we grow. speaker-1: Yeah. So I'm curious, like what are you noticing about AI and leadership that you don't think we're talking enough about yet? Like is there something that is really percolating for you and your awareness and you're wondering where are the conversations actually happening about this? Is anybody talking about this? speaker-0: I still as I I you know, where I sit is more on the human and relational side of it all. And so, you know, I think this idea of how do you build a deeper sense of empathy for where people are coming from and understand the layers underneath the surface that you see in a work environment and how can you use that to help people work more powerfully together? Like what you know, so I think that My role has been this human element when people are like completely focused on AI. Like let's like come back to the basics and actually like picking up like a colored pencil and like getting off all screens and being like hyper focused and present with people who are in the room in the moment. So I'm sure there are many ways that we can use AI to improve emotional intelligence and like have deeper kindness and empathy. I haven't done that yet. You know, I haven't really explored that and like seen very much of how people are really doing that in a good way. I have seen people plugging in their Clifton Strength Finder and their disc profile and their Enneagram and their human design into like you know, Claude and then figuring out like how can I more effectively work with my team and how can I as a leader like more deeply understand the nuances and the differences of each person. and how I can email them and communicate with them differently and like give them feedback in a way that is appropriate to how they would like to receive it. And I think that that's that's a cool and interesting way to use AI to like improve team dynamics. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I appreciate that. I've I've used that before as well and I think it can be interesting in creating a holistic picture of your leadership profile and you know best practices around communication. But at the end of the day, like a lot of that, even though it seems so accurate much of the time, ⁓ What's missing are the interactions, like the points of interaction with that other person that don't just give you an outcome, but give you a sense of being on the journey together. So maybe you already learned from their Clifton strengths, like, ⁓ this is somebody that I should be careful about giving feedback to and you know, whatever. But ask them, you know, because it could be really interesting to f to that first of all, it could be different than what the report says, but second of all, it gives them the chance to be the one to share that with you. And so I think this is one of the bridges that I I work with leaders to to navigate so that we don't just cut to the outcome and cut to the response, but we work with the process and the journey because that teaches us so much more about how to be effective when you're work when you're navigating the outcome. Right. So how to be effective in that relationship, how to be effective with the decision. ⁓ you have to grapple with it, you have to work with it, you have to wrestle with it. And in in the case of working with humans, building that relationship and that rapport, even if it leads you to the same response at the end, you have something together. Now we might call it trust, whatever we want to call it, but you have something that's fundamentally different than just the data, right, of the outcome. speaker-0: Yeah. And that's the hard thing about like cutting corners around relationships and understanding human beings is as much as we can like read about somebody's strength profile or or from their like 360 leadership review, like experiencing them in person and getting their actual thoughts in real time, since we're constantly growing and changing, like we might make a decision that's different than what the computer would think that we would make. So yeah, I think it's hard it's hard to cut corners. In that way. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So last question for you is what is a question that you're sitting with about your identity or growth as a leader in this AI accelerated world? speaker-0: I am sitting with a concern around like an over over stimulation and overly like a sort of an impossible amount of input that's coming in for me personally and for everyone and like how is that affecting us? And like there's just like a concern. So it's a question and a concern around like how can we like sh protect ourselves basically in a time in which there's like so much that's like demanding our attention and like like the the amount of information that's kind of pouring in all around us. So there's I think yeah I think there's this like a concern around people using AI and producing sort of ⁓ mediocre like slop work versus actually like having like a deep connection with what they're doing. So there's there's there's just a question around how do we maintain our humanity, the quality of what we're doing, the sort of like unique, imperfect, soulful thing that we're meant to be doing here and ⁓ avoid this like mechanical, like processed, like mediocre, extremely efficient alternative. So that's that's definitely the question that I'm sitting with in this as I like live in San Francisco and am part of this huge wave that's that's like flowing over us right now. I myself find myself going back and forth with AI, like with like looking at like even one email and end up spending way longer writing this email versus like if I had just like done it in a second. And so sometimes I'm like, is this really actually helping me? Or is it making me like less efficient with my own intuition and you know, so there's a lot of questions there. speaker-1: Hmm. Well that is a powerful question to end on. So thank you so much, Adam Rosendahl. So good to have you on the show. speaker-0: Yeah, thank you so much, Dan. I think that we're all still grappling with these issues right now. But it's fun to talk about with you and to really emphasize the human layer in it all. speaker-1: Absolutely. Thank you for bringing it. Thanks for listening to Human Equilibrium. If this conversation sparks something for you, I invite you to keep exploring with me at humanequilibrium.ai. There you can find the field guide on wise leadership in the age of AI, take the free human equilibrium assessment, and explore my work with leaders and teams to strengthen judgment, emotional clarity, and relational presence in an AI-accelerated world. Until next time. Stay curious, stay human, and lead wisely.