Latest / Divorce Dialogues / Divorce as a Second Chance with Holly Moore
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- Holly Moore (00:00): Divorce is really a unique opportunity because oftentimes it happens later in life when you do know who you are and you do know more about who you want to be and the kind of life that you want to live. And now I think you feel a little bit more free to actually become the person that you want to be and live the life that you want to live. Katherine Miller (00:19): Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Katherine Miller. This is where we have honest, thoughtful conversations about divorce, emotional, financial, legal and family questions no one prepares you for. From deciding whether to separate to navigating the process with dignity to rebuilding what comes next, divorce dialogues is here to help you find clarity, perspective, and a better way forward. One of the most disorienting parts of divorce is that it often shakes much more than the relationship itself. It can disrupt your identity, your routines, your confidence, your sense of stability, and even the story you've been telling yourself about your life and certainly the plans you had about it. For many people, the loss of identity doesn't suddenly begin when the marriage ends. Oftentimes people have been slowly disconnecting from themselves long before the divorce starts and they're trying to hold everything together, meet everyone else's needs and survive inside lives that no longer feel fully aligned. (01:26): My guest today is Holly Moore. She's a family law attorney and founder of the Moore Family Law Group and she's the host of the podcast Made For More. Holly has built a powerful online following by speaking honestly about divorce, motherhood, healing, and rebuilding a life that actually feels authentic after major life transitions. Through both her legal work and her content, she explores what happens after the life you planned falls apart and how people begin reconnecting with themselves on the other side of it. Today we're talking about identity after divorce, emotional survival, the shame and grief that so many people carry silently and why rebuilding your life is often much deeper than simply ending a marriage. Welcome, Holly. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Holly Moore (02:15): Thank you, Katherine. Wow. I'm excited for this topic, this discussion based on that intro. Thank you so much for having me. Katherine Miller (02:22): Well, I really think that the question of identity following divorce is the most important question. I think it's more important than the division of assets and the cashflow and what happens with the house and the schedule for the kids because who we are really is at the basis of our life. And I know that's really important to you. So what was it that made you decide to bring that level of personal connection and honesty to the work you do and the content you create? Holly Moore (02:49): As you said, it's so important. It's much more important than all the sort of legal technical stuff. I think that's one part of it. But the other part of it is I just think it's such a unique opportunity when you've gone through a divorce after you've gone through a divorce to really actually become the person that you want to be because I think so many times people get married in their 20s and we don't even know who we are at that point. And a lot of times we're operating off the set of rules, quote unquote, rules that we were raised with. We're doing the things that we thought we should do. We're being the person we thought we were supposed to be. And I think a divorce is really a unique opportunity because oftentimes it happens later in life when you do know who you are and you do know more about who you want to be and the kind of life that you want to live. (03:40): And now I think you feel a little bit more free to actually become the person that you want to be and live the life that you want to live. Katherine Miller (03:46): Mean, I'm going to tell you something personal about myself is I decided to divorce when I all of a sudden had this epiphany that I was leading a life that was what other people wanted me to do, what I was defining as being successful from the outside and not the inside. And I was like, "Well, wait one second. I don't want to do this anymore. I'm not happy living this life." The idea of living it till the end of my life seemed really stressful. And I did not want to do that. Holly Moore (04:15): I would think that would also be depressing. How old were you when you had this epiphany? Katherine Miller (04:21): 38. Holly Moore (04:22): Right. So that's like a lot more years to live where you're like, "This is not for me.” Katherine Miller (04:29): " Yeah. I realized that my children were going to grow up and leave home. My parents were going to die and I was going to be left alone with this guy. I was like, "Whoa, no, no." That doesn't sound great. And so another thing that I like to think of is that divorce lies at the intersection between what was and what will be and whether or not you chose it like I did or you didn't choose it's still an opportunity to choose a path coming off of where you are now, not where you were in your 20s or 30s when you got married and to set you having all that life experience forward in a direction that you want, but you have to figure that out. Holly Moore (05:11): Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think most good things in life, the times when we really become really intentional and deliberate about who and what we want to be happen after really hard things. So to your point, even if the divorce isn't something that you wanted or a decision that you made, the decision maybe was kind of thrust upon you. Yeah, you're still presented with this beautiful opportunity Katherine Miller (05:38): And yet it can feel like grief. So what is it do you think that people are actually grieving during divorce besides just the relationship itself? Holly Moore (05:47): I think so much of it is wrapped up in all of our shoulds. Marriage should last forever. This should be the person that I was supposed to grow old with. Or maybe on paper, this person should be someone I want to be with. Maybe they have the outside appearance of success or a standup person or something like that, the type of guy that your parents would want you to marry or all of those things. I mean, I think that's part of it is sort of the outer stigma part of it. As far as we've come in terms of society and our views and sort of being more open and accepting to all sorts of different things that happen in life and decisions that are made, I think there is still a stigma that goes along with it. I think there is still a sense of failure, which there shouldn't be. (06:35): I mean, originally marriages just based on lifespan, we're not supposed to last this long, like 20 years and we're just all dying off. And I mean, now my grandparents were married for like 75 years. That's a really long time to expect something to last. And so I think we need to let go of the idea that if a marriage does not last forever, it's a failure. I have never been through a divorce, so I'm careful not to be too like, "Well, sure, it's easy. Just get out of it. It's not a failure. There's no shame. It's fine." I haven't walked in those shoes. So I would imagine it's hard to let go of those feelings of shame and failure, but I hope that people are able to. Katherine Miller (07:18): I was the first person in my family to ever get divorced, having told you my little story there. And my grandmother told me before I got married the first time that I could never get divorced because family comes first. And so for her, that meant staying together regardless of whether or not it meant you were having affairs or drinking or taking drugs or whatever you needed to do just to grin and bear it and make it work. I think to have a relationship that successfully works over decades, you need to grow kind of in the same direction. You need to maintain common interests other than just your kids or your finances or your house and that's not easy to do. And Margaret Mead said at the end of her life having been divorced three times what it felt like to have three failed marriages. And she said, "I had no failed marriages. (08:01): I had three marriages that ran their course and ended." And I think that is a really interesting way of looking at it and still the stigma or the perceived stigma, it's often like, "Oh, what will people say?" Holly Moore (08:16): Absolutely. Katherine Miller (08:17): Yeah. And there's going to be blame. But you know what? Other people move on. Don't you think the neighbors and the friends and the family, they move on to other things they're interested in Holly Moore (08:25): We think other people think about us much more than they actually do. We think other people actually care what we're doing and what's going on much more than they actually do. It's really just a moment of gossip or, "Oh, did you hear about so- and-so?" And then it passes and who cares? Katherine Miller (08:41): It's true. And especially if you don't make a big drama of it. I mean, I've had clients say, "Well, it's going to be on page six." And I'm like, "Okay, so it is for a day and next week somebody else will be on page six getting divorced. And as long as you don't make a spectacle of yourself, people will get bored." Holly Moore (08:57): Yes. Katherine, I know you've represented high profile clients as well and that has actually been one of my biggest epiphanies because even when they are on page six, these higher profile people, even when they are on TMZ, my friends don't know about it. There's still a whole section of the world that is not paying attention to it even when it's high profile and doesn't care. And when I realized that, because sometimes in certain cases it's like the press is thick and they're calling me every day for comment and in my little world it just feels like it's everywhere and it's like I'll talk to my parents and like they have no idea what's going on. And it's such an epiphany for me that it's like, okay, if this celebrity can be getting a divorce and be all over TMZ and all the publications and everything and my parents still don't even know about it and don't care, I'm going to be just fine. (09:54): Or Sally Sue on the corner is going to be just fine. Katherine Miller (09:58): Exactly. And ultimately people are going to be just fine. It's just a sense in the moment that it's so disruptive. And I think part of that is because people really lose themselves inside the marriage and their identity is to be the spouse of this person in part or the parents to these people. And so what are some of the common ways that you see people losing themselves or their own identity inside of the marriage relationship? Holly Moore (10:21): I think that is more common in women, although I've seen it in both. I mean, I definitely think it does exist across all genders, but I do see it in women, particularly in women that have been stay-at-home moms and devoting your life to your spouse and kids is such a noble cause. I never want to minimize that. But when suddenly your entire existence doesn't revolve around your kids and a spouse because you got a divorce and now you're not with your kids 100% of the time and you don't have a spouse, that can cause real issues. And I mean, I'm just such a big proponent of women in particular, because again, my lived experience is seeing this happen in women so much more often than I do men, but get your own thing going on during the marriage. It doesn't have to be a big career. (11:10): You could do volunteer work, you could have a cause that you really care about, but you have to have something outside of your spouse and kids. I always say if God created women to just be devoted to their kids and their spouse, he would've made kids that never grow up. But in fact, kids grow up, people move on. So I think we are all meant to have something that matters to us and that we feel meaning and impact to do it that is outside of our families. Katherine Miller (11:40): Yeah, 100% agree that having your own thing going on that isn't ... So you have something to talk about other than your spouse and children. And I actually think that, and this might be counterintuitive, it I think contributes to a successful marriage when both people have their own interests and they bring something dynamic and separate to the interaction in the marriage. Holly Moore (12:02): I could not agree more. Yeah. I was going to add to that too. It's also much sexier if both people have their own thing going on and you come home to your spouse at night and it's like they have a whole other side of their life to tell you about and to have discourse about and all of that rather than everything just sort of being focused on what's going on inside the home. I mean, that can get kind of boring. Katherine Miller (12:26): It can and can feel naggy. Oh, are you going to pick up at the birthday party? Can you get milk on your way back? I mean, stuff like that. It's just like, I'm sure you've had this happen too, a client sometimes coming in and they said, "Well, we've been kind of like roommates and I knew it wasn't good, but I didn't think it was that bad that they would leave, but it is that bad because the spark is gone and it doesn't have to be a spark of your first date or your honeymoon, but really something. Holly Moore (12:53): Absolutely. Yeah. Katherine Miller (12:55): So how do you think that people do rebuild their lives intentionally after a major transition like divorce? What does it look like? Holly Moore (13:02): It really starts with getting clear about what you want. I think that it sounds so simple and so easy and yet I think it's really hard for a lot of people because I think a lot of people have gone through their entire life. They could be 40 years old and never have really been honest about themselves about what they truly want. They might think they know what they want, but when you really drill down on it, it's still what their parents wanted for them. It's still what their spouse wants for them. It's still what they think they should want. And it's not really an honest conversation with themselves about what they truly want for so many different reasons. They have shame around it. They just haven't really taken the time to think about it. They don't think they're worthy of what they truly want. I mean, it's so layered, but I think it really starts with getting honest and clear about what you truly want for your life. (13:56): And then I think the next step is just relentless pursuit of that and recognizing it's not necessarily going to be easy and just all peaches and cream, it's going to be hard, it's going to be discouraging, but I don't think there's truly any limits to a person achieving what they want unless they put them on themselves. Katherine Miller (14:21): Divorce dialogues is brought to you by Miller Law Group. We believe divorce isn't just a legal process, it's a human transition. At Miller Law Group, we help people navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and respect, focusing on conversations that lead to better outcomes for families. Learn more at miller-law.com. What do you think surprises people most emotionally about divorce once they're actually in it? Holly Moore (14:48): I think that they are surprised that it doesn't feel better every day. I guess I'm really speaking more towards a person who was the one to make the decision like, "I want a divorce." And I think maybe they have this notion that once they make that decision and they take the first step, every day after that is going to feel good and like, yes, this was the right decision and this is amazing. And I think most people get to that place where they have more days than not that's like, "This is amazing." You'll joke about divorce. Why is it so expensive because it's worth it? So I think a lot of people get there, but in the trenches of the actual process of the divorce, I think people maybe don't anticipate the level of grief that they have. I don't think they fully think through, I'm going to have a Christmas without my kids. (15:45): I'm going to possibly have to not be with one of my kids on their birthdays or my birthday or all of those things that maybe we take for granted prior to a divorce. I think they suddenly go, "Oh my gosh, this is my new reality and it doesn't feel so great." Katherine Miller (16:02): Yeah. I also think it's a very confusing cocktail of emotions and it's sort of like grief. It is grief in a way and there are days where you feel sad or anxious or worried and other days where you feel elated and free and filled with possibility and it could be like hour to hour and that all those things exist all at the same time and that can be a surprise. Holly Moore (16:32): Yes, I could not agree more. I mean, even just, I'm sure you've had the experience of just talking to clients from day to day. I mean, you can tell one day they're like, "Yes, let's just settle. Whatever they want is fine." And the next day it's like scorched earth, like we're taking this to the mat. They're riding those roller coaster of emotions. And then you start plunking in things like a new significant other that you just learned about or what they told the kids about this or that. And it's just like, yeah, it is definitely a rollercoaster of emotions. Katherine Miller (17:07): Divorce dialogues is brought to you by Miller Law Group. We believe divorce isn't just a legal process, it's a human transition. At Miller Law Group, we help people navigate divorce with dignity, clarity and respect, focusing on conversations that lead to better outcomes for families. Learn more at miller-law.com. Yeah. So how do you help clients separate who they are from what's happened to them? Holly Moore (17:33): It starts with just getting them out of the victim mentality of like, "This has happened to me. " It's like, okay, let's just all recognize that everyone had a role in where you are today. You had just as much of a stake in this situation and a role in however it evolved as did the other person. And that conversation is a hard conversation to have because a lot of people don't think that way. A lot of people just think, "Well, it was all my spouse. My spouse did X, Y, and Z, and now here we are not really sort of getting under those layers and thinking, okay, how did I contribute to this? " So I think first it's let's just completely take personal responsibility for everything we can because I think that's very freeing to do that because once you take personal responsibility, then you have control over how you can move forward. (18:29): If everything is just what has happened to me, what burdens have been placed upon me, you're completely without control in that situation. But once you sort of take your power back, then you can make better decisions, you can do better, you can make the next relationship something better. And then second, I think it is about sort of looking at this as a beautiful opportunity and sometimes it's too soon for that, right? Sometimes the emotions are very raw. There's a lot of hurt, there's a lot of resentment, there's a lot of fear about what the future may hold. It's important to allow yourself the space to feel all those things, feel the fear, feel the hurt, all of those things. But then I think there comes a point where you can get excited about even just like the little things like, okay, I'm getting a new apartment and I get to decorate it however I want. (19:22): My wife always had to have it this or that way. I'm like going completely man cave style here. And I think it's just like that song right now, Ordinary by Alex Warren. There's a line in that song that says something about make the mundane the masterpiece. And I think I love that line because it's like, yes, take the mundane things of life. Take you having to move out of the family home and getting a new apartment and make it your masterpiece, make it really exciting, romanticize it, make it fun, make it you. And I think taking those little building blocks of building a new life, like the very practical aspects and sort of getting excited about them, getting excited about how this is all the building blocks to redesign your life is really healthy and fulfilling. Katherine Miller (20:05): I agree with that. And I'd like to add one other thing that I'd like you to consider and that I think is when you're coming from a victim mentality, you're always in reaction. And so you're looking for retribution. And when you do that, you allow the other person, whether or not they intend to do this or not, but you allow the other person to frame the conversation and frame the negotiation. And in doing that, you lose because you're not thinking through proactively what it is that works for you. You're thinking about what a victim you are and how hurt you are and how you're owed and how you need to punish and all of that stuff. And maybe you do and maybe you don't, that's totally separate conversation. But if you do that thinking about how you are a victim of someone else, you give control of the negotiation over to them and that is a strategic mistake in divorce. (20:52): What do you think about that, Holly? Holly Moore (20:54): I love that. Strike my answer insert yours as mine because you know what I love about that, Katherine, is because the way I talked about it was very fluffy and maybe that resonates with some people, but the way you talked about it, it's like, okay, if you want to be strategic and you want the best possible outcome, get out of the victim mentality. I think that's a more concrete way to think about it. Katherine Miller (21:16): I think both are true. Going forward, if you think about what it is your own participation was and the relationship and what went awry in it, you're less likely to repeat it. And you and I both have had repeat customers I'm sure where people are like, "Well, it happened again or happened again or whatever, but you don't need to do that as so long as you examine yourself. But I think that in this moment it's a wake-up call. It's a cold shower of reality. In this negotiation today, it's a much more strategic choice to stop thinking of yourself as a victim and start thinking about what future you want and that future is going to be without the person who's victimized you in your mind. Holly Moore (21:55): Yes. Yes. That's really good. I agree. Katherine Miller (21:58): What other mistakes do you think that smart, well-intentioned people make when they're trying to hold everything together during the divorce? Holly Moore (22:05): Mean, just having control over your emotions is a big one. If you can't control your emotions, it can be a huge mistake. Then we end up with evidence against us of text messages where you lost it and it doesn't look good. I think controlling your emotions or the lack thereof is a huge mistake in a divorce. I think also sometimes in high asset divorce in particular, if you're used to investing and moving money around and all of that, it's just not a good idea to do that during the divorce and people still do that and I'm like, okay, just wait. Are you able to wait six months? Or can we just let the dust settle a little bit before you make all these big money moves? I think because even though it may be completely legit, it's not nefarious, it's not malicious, it's not hiding money, it still looks bad. (22:57): And then we got to explain it and we got to defend it and we hope that the explanation makes sense to the other people and judges aren't always the most sophisticated financial investors and don't necessarily understand that it was better to move this investment over here for the return on it. Just things like that. I just think people should just cool their jets and resist making any sort of big money moves during the divorce so that we just don't have to deal with it. Those are the two big things on the top of my head that the mistakes that people make. Katherine Miller (23:30): So we've talked a lot about identity and who you are as you go through the divorce. So if there's a listener out there and listener land who feels right now really disconnected from themselves, what do you think is something that they can do to begin to build self-trust or a new identity? Holly Moore (23:50): My brain is rapidly flipping through the catalog of podcast episodes that I've done on that topic and the one thing that's coming to my mind because I like it and it is truly just the most simple thing you can do is breathwork. Whenever we have a guest on that's talking about getting back in touch with yourself and just really being true to yourself, like so many of them say, just start with your breath, put your hand on your heart, take some deep breaths. And it doesn't feel like that would really do much, but it does. And I think it's just maybe sort of the exercise of getting in touch with the most basic function of our lives, of us being a living, breathing human being is breathing. And I think also just sort of being still. The world is so noisy and you can go on Instagram and you can get the opinions of 500 different people and you can get the guide to this and the guide to that and comment guide and it comes straight to your DMs about how to move forward and what to do and this is the top 10 things and all of that. (25:00): And I just think we're inundated with so much information that sometimes we lose ourselves in all of that. I think just being still and sort of tuning out the noise and just sitting with ourselves and sometimes that's really uncomfortable and maybe that's why we don't do that more, but I think it's immensely valuable. Katherine Miller (25:23): Yeah. Breathing is the first on my list of tools to pull it together in my book, The Emotionally Savvy Divorce. And it doesn't mean sitting there on the cushion with your hands sort of clasped in your heart space in the Lotus position. And just three deep breaths while you think about what it feels like to sit on the chair can really, really help. All right. So Holly, we only have a few more minutes left and I have a couple more questions for you. And one is a question that I really like to ask all my guests and I call it the reframe. So for you, what is one shift in thinking the reframe that changes how people move through divorce? Holly Moore (25:58): This is not happening to you. This is happening for you. Katherine Miller (26:03): Yeah, that's good. Yeah. All right. Last question. What is one thing that you wish more people knew before they reached the breaking point in their marriage? Holly Moore (26:13): If you want to save your marriage, it can be saved. That's what I would say. Katherine Miller (26:18): Yeah. But it's going to take work. Holly Moore (26:21): It's going to take work and sometimes it's easier to end the marriage. Katherine Miller (26:26): Yeah. And sometimes that's a better decision. That was for me. Holly Moore (26:29): Yep. Yeah. Katherine Miller (26:31): Well, Holly, thank you so much for being my guest and divorce dialogues. It's been a pleasure. Holly Moore (26:35): Thank you, Katherine. The pleasure has been all mine. Katherine Miller (26:41): I really love my conversation with Holly Moore and I have a couple of reflections on that conversation that I'd like to share with you before we wrap this episode up. And the first is so much about your identity, one's identity going through the divorce because it is so clear that when we couple, we marry, or even if we live together in a long-term relationship, our identities become intertwined and our sense of who we are is in part created by our relationship with that other person. And that's just how we're wired. It's not that you're doing anything wrong if that happens, it's just what happens. And so we need to redefine ourselves or redefine our identity as someone no longer in that kind of relationship with that person. And toward the end of my interview with Holly, we were talking about the victim, like feeling like you're a victim and understand that if you're a victim, you're still allowing your identity to somehow be defined by that other person. (27:44): And so it's important to have a successful sense of self going forward, and this takes time, to find a way through that sense of being, I really don't love the word victimized, but damaged, hurt, betrayed and left by that person and find a way to identify yourself as a whole and complete human being separate from the person you were married to or you were in partnership with for such a long period of time. And that is challenging. It's not something that happens overnight. It's not something that happens because you chose it to happen. Even if you chose the divorce as I did and many people do, you still have to find a way to define your identity and feel comfortable in yourself separate from that other person and that can take a long time and it's worth the effort. It's worth it to do it because it's not something that just happens. (28:44): It will be a better endeavor if you do the work, whether that means getting therapy or coaching or a group work or what meditation, whatever it takes to do that. This sense of identity and who you are going through and on the other side of divorce is so much more important than the more mundane and typical ways in which we think about divorce, about money and schedules and housing and all of that stuff. I am not minimizing how important those things are as well, but this piece of our own identity is often overlooked. It's certainly overlooked by the legal system and it is super important. Thanks for listening. If this conversation was helpful, share it with someone who might need it. And if you're navigating divorce yourself, you'll find more resources and episodes at miller-law.com. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.