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Methods, Truth, and the Creator–Creature Distinction · Reformed Thinking

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Welcome everyone to another deep dive.
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Today we're going to get into something really interesting.
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I think we're looking at how different Christian thinkers,
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different approaches go about defending the faith apologetics,
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but not just the arguments themselves, more like the the
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foundational thinking behind them.
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We've got some great material here that contrasts key methods,
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and it really shows how our basic understanding of God
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shapes, well, everything about how we talk to the world.
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That's right. And this really offers a, a good
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way to grasp the different camps, you could say, in
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Christian apologetics. We'll touch on some maybe
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surprising ideas and some very distinct ways of thinking.
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We'll look at people like John Fram, William Lane, Craig Kelly,
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James Clark, and see how their views give us different angles
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on why we believe what we believe and maybe how we should
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articulate that. It gets to the core of these
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methods. OK, so First things first, when
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we say apologetics, what are we actually talking about?
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It sounds a bit like saying sorry.
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Yeah, that's a common thought. But no, it's really about
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offering a reasoned defense of Christianity, giving an answer,
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you know, for the hope we have now, the sources we looked at,
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they make it clear the Bible doesn't hand US1 single official
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method like a formula, but it absolutely gives us the building
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blocks, the instructions, the raw material to construct our
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defense. It points toward a system that's
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grounded in, well, all the Scripture understanding God,
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humanity, the world as he's revealed them in His Word.
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It's not about just grabbing a verse here or there.
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It's about the whole picture God paints.
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Right. So it needs to be consistent
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with the whole testimony of Scripture.
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And what about the person doing the apologetics?
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What kind of foundational beliefs are needed to even start
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doing this properly? It's not just intellectual
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horsepower, is it? No, not at all.
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And that's a really key point for someone doing apologetics.
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It actually starts with their own heart, their own standing.
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It begins with regeneration. You have to be a believer
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yourself. The material stresses that you
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need to be committed to the Lordship of Christ.
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He has to be ruling in your life and thinking, and you need a
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solid grasp of the word of God as the ultimate authority, not
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just an authority, but the final word.
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Greg Bonson, we'll talk about more, but it's strongly, he said
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God's word is the foundation for all knowledge.
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It has absolute epistemic authority.
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That's the highest standard for truth, and it's the necessary
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presupposition, the thing you have to assume for any real
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knowledge humans possess. So genuine understanding starts
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there. Without God's Word, you're
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building on shaky ground. OK, so it's grounded in personal
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faith and the authority of Scripture, which means it's not
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really about just winning arguments.
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Then? That's kind of the stereotype
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sometimes. Not at all.
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And the sources are very clear on this.
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It's not about debating someone into the Kingdom, you know, you
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can't argue anyone into heaven. The purpose is much broader,
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much richer. First, yes, it defends the
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faith. It answers objections, corrects
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misunderstandings, pushes back against false ideas.
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Second, it does contribute to evangelism, not by forcing
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belief, but by laying out the truth that people are actually
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responsible for. God's made himself known, so
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apologetics helps articulate that clearly.
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People are accountable for how they respond. 3rd, it's
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Drainson's believers. It helps us understand our own
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faith better. Why we believe what we believe
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gives confidence. And finally, especially for some
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methods, it helps show the well, the internal problems, the
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foolishness even of worldviews that try to operate apart from
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God shows they don't ultimately hold together.
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That makes a lot more sense than just scoring debate points.
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Now, you mentioned these different methods developing.
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To really get where they come from, we probably need to touch
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on the Enlightenment, right? That seems like a major turning
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point. Oh, absolutely.
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The Enlightenment, you know, late 16 hundreds, 1700s, was a
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massive shift in thinking, a real watershed moment.
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Before then, generally speaking, authority came from divine
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revelation, scripture, maybe tradition. the Enlightenment
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flipped that. It put human reason on the
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throne, made it the ultimate judge.
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The dominant idea became, if you can't prove something rationally
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with your own reason, you don't really have a right to believe
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it. And that led to this big quest
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for rational certainty. Think of Descartes trying to
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doubt everything, to find that one unshakable point.
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I think therefore I am. It was all about finding a
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foundation for knowledge purely with inhuman thought, separate
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from God. And how did that thinking reason
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as the ultimate standard, filter down into apologetics?
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Well, the classical and evidential list approaches often
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work within that kind of framework, or at least engage
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with it directly. They try to find what they see
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as neutral common ground. Usually that's human reason and
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observable facts. The goal is to build a rational
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case for Christianity, starting from principles or evidence that
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supposedly anyone can accept, believer or unbeliever.
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The underlying idea is that facts are just facts out there,
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neutral, and can be assessed objectively by anyone using
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reason. It's like saying let's both just
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look at the evidence rationally without bringing our world views
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into it yet. OK, so let's dig into one of
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those classical apologetics. What does that look like in
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practice? Right?
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A major figure here is someone like William Lane Craig.
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His approach is pretty representative.
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Typically it's a 2 step process. First, they aim to establish
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theism, the existence of a God, using philosophical arguments
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and evidence. So you get things like the
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cosmological argument. You know the universe had a
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beginning, so it must have a cause.
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Like the Kalam argument? Exactly.
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The Kalam Cosmological Argument is a big one for Craig.
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Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
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The universe began to exist, therefore the universe has a
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cause, which they argue points to God.
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Or the teleological argument, looking at design or fine tuning
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in the universe and arguing for a designer once they feel
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they've rationally established God's existence.
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The second step is to argue for specifically Christian claims.
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Things like miracles, the historical reliability of the
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gospels, and centrally the evidence for Jesus's
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resurrection. It's like billing a case
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logically, piece by piece, starting from common ground.
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And how do they see reason in all this?
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Is reason the ultimate judge or just a tool?
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That's a good distinction. They would generally say they
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use reason in a ministerial way. Meaning it serves the truth.
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Right. Reason is a tool, a servant that
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helps us understand and demonstrate God's truth.
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It's like using logic to analyze Scripture.
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They distinguish this from a magisterial use of reason, where
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reason sits above Scripture and judges it.
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They wouldn't want to go that far, but they do see reason as a
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neutral meeting place where believers and unbelievers can
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supposedly assess arguments objectively.
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They believe the arguments themselves, based on reason and
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facts, should be compelling to any rational person.
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OK, I see the logic there, but you mentioned tensions.
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What's a major point where this classical approach clashes with
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others? Well, a really sharp point of
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disagreement comes up regarding presuppositional ISM.
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Craig, for instance, admits he has pretty low tolerance for it.
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He often dismisses it as just circular reasoning.
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He calls it Logical Howler, basically saying it argues God
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exists because God exists. Which sounds pretty bad if
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that's all it is, right? Any questions how anyone could
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seriously think that proves anything?
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Now, our sources point out that this dismissal can come across
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as a bit, well, dismissive. Maybe not fully engaging with
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the presuppositionalist actual argument about ultimate starting
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points. It definitely highlights a deep
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disagreement about how argument should even begin.
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Beyond just the method, are there other core ideas where
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Craig's classical view differs sharply from, say, the
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presuppositionalists or others? Maybe something about human
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nature? Yes, absolutely.
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And this is a really fundamental difference.
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A key fault line is Craig skepticism about the census
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divinitatus, that innate sense or awareness of God that Calvin
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talked about. He doubts that exists.
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He expresses significant doubt about it.
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Now for the other approaches we'll discuss, especially those
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rooted in Reformed thought. This is huge.
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They point to passages like Romans one saying God has made
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his eternal power and divine nature clear through creation,
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so people are without excuse. If that internal sense and
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external revelation are already there, denying it seems like a
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foundational flaw in your starting point.
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It changes the whole apologetic task, right?
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If people already know God deep down, you're not proving his
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existence from zero, you're addressing their suppression of
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that knowledge. So Craig's doubt about the
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census divinititus really effects how necessary he thinks
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it is to build these proofs for God's existence for unbelievers.
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OK, that really sets the stage. So let's pivot to
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presuppositional apologetics. You mentioned it takes a very
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different starting point. Who are the main figures here?
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Right. The pioneer was Cornelius Van
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Till. Working from the late 1920s
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onwards, he developed it, reacting against what he saw as
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compromises and other methods. Interestingly, he wasn't
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initially thrilled with the label presuppositional, but
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accepted it to make the distinction clear.
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His student Greg Bonson really took Van Till's ideas and
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applied them, especially in debates with atheists.
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He was known for being incredibly sharp and consistent
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and showing how it worked in practice.
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The guy atheists fear debating. That's the reputation he gained,
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Yeah, because he wouldn't let them start on supposedly neutral
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ground. He pushed them on their own
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assumptions. Today, John Frame is probably
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the most well known scholar systematizing and defending this
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approach. Gordon Clark was another key
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figure, too. So what is their absolute core
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principle? If they don't start with neutral
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reason, where do they start? The absolute non negotiable core
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is this. The Christian apologist must
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presuppose the truth of the Bible and the entire Christian
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worldview as the starting point and the ultimate standard for
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all truth and reality. God's Word has that absolute
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epistemic authority we mentioned.
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It's the necessary foundation, the necessary presupposition for
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all knowledge. So you don't try to prove the
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Bible using some external standard like human reason.
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The Bible is the standard all thinking, all facts must be
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interpreted through the lens of scripture.
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Trying to start neutrally is seen as dishonouring God's
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authority and giving human reason a place it doesn't
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deserve. OK, that's a radical difference.
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And this ties into a concept you mentioned earlier, the creator
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creature distinction. Why is that so central for them?
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It's absolutely fundamental. The Creator creature distinction
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is the basic biblical truth that there's an absolute categorical
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difference between God, the independent, eternal,
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self-sufficient Creator, and everything else which is the
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creation totally dependent on Him for its existence and
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meaning. God's CIA, his self existence.
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Exactly. God needs nothing.
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We need everything from him. Now this is vital because
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presupposition lists argue that the root of all non Christian
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thought is a failure. To honor this distinction,
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unbelievers either try to make God dependent on creation
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somehow, or more commonly, they try to make creation, especially
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humanity, independent from God. They act autonomously, as if
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they can define reality, truth, and morality on their own terms.
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Our sources say this denial of dependence, this assertion of
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atomic, is the one uniting factor among all non Christian
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worldviews, the fundamental rebellion against the way things
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actually are. And how does creation itself fit
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into this? If we're dependent, what about
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the world around us? The creation itself is
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constantly testifying to God. It's shouting His existence and
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His nature. Think Psalm 19, The heavens
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declare the glory of God, or Romans 1, Again, God's invisible
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attributes are clearly seen in what he has made, leaving people
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without excuse. This means there's this
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unavoidable 247 witness of the universe pointing to God as the
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Creator. You can't escape it.
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Every star, every atom, every law of physics implicitly relies
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on and points back to the Creator.
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So genuine ignorance isn't really possible, it's more a
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matter of suppression. So if God's existence is that
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plane and everything depends on him, then the idea of neutral
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ground really goes out the window, doesn't it?
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Completely. If God is creator and sustainer
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of all things, then there simply are no neutral areas in God's
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universe. Every fact is God's fact.
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Logic is God's logic. Morality finds its source in
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God's character. Physics works because God
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upholds it. Trying to find a neutral spot to
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stand where God's authority doesn't apply is like a fish
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trying to find a dry spot in the ocean.
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It doesn't exist, so true knowledge is impossible.
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Apart from acknowledging him, any attempt to reason neutrally
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is already starting from a false premise, A rebellious stance.
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OK, but if there's absolutely no neutral ground, how do you even
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start talking to someone who fundamentally disagrees?
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Don't you just end up shouting past each other from different
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planets? That's the logical question,
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isn't it? But here's the subtle point.
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While there's no neutral ground, presuppositionalists insist
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there is an ever present common ground.
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What's the common ground? It's God's ground.
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It's the reality that he created and sustains the world that both
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the believer and the unbeliever inhabit.
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An atheist might deny God, but they still live in God's world.
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Use God's logic to argue. Rely on the uniformity of nature
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that God provides. Appeal to moral standards that
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only make sense if God exists. So you use those things they
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rely on as a starting point. Exactly.
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Any fact, any aspect of human experience, logic, science,
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morality, beauty can become a point of contact to show that
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these things only make ultimate sense within the Christian
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worldview. So denying neutrality doesn't
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destroy conversation, it actually secures rather than
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destroys commonality by grounding it in the shared
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reality created by God. Recently saying let's look at
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the world we both live in and see which worldview actually
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makes sense of it. All right, now the big charge,
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the one you mentioned, Craig, raises circular reasoning.
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You believe the Bible because the Bible says so.
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How do presuppositionalist get around that?
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It seems like a knockout punch. It seems like one, but they have
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several responses. First, they challenge the
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premise that reason is neutral ground in the first place.
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They argue unbelievers have an epistemic bias, a leaning in
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their thinking due to sin that makes them truth suppressors.
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They don't want to see the truth about God, so to grant their
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autonomous reason the status of a neutral judge is already
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giving away the farm. Biblically speaking, it's
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letting the creature judge the Creator. 2nd, and this is maybe
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the main point, they argue that every worldview necessarily
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involves circularity at the level of its ultimate authority.
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Everyone has a starting point they can't prove.
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Precisely. You have to have an ultimate
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standard by which you judge all other claims, and you can't
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prove that ultimate standard by appealing to something more
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ultimate, because then that would be your ultimate standard.
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Think about it. How does a rationalist prove
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that reason is the ultimate authority?
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By using reason. That's circular.
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How does an empiricist prove that sense experience is the
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ultimate source of knowledge by sense experience also circular?
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So if using your ultimate standard to validate your
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ultimate standard is circular, then everybody is guilty of
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circularity. The real question isn't if your
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reasoning is circular at the ultimate level, but whether your
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ultimate starting point, your circle, is the correct one, the
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one that actually corresponds to reality.
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So it's not necessarily a vicious circle, just the nature
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of having an ultimate authority. Exactly.
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John Frey makes this point. Clearly it's not viciously
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circular like saying A is true because A is true.
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He describes the sequence more like this.
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God's rationality is the rational basis for human faith,
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which is the rational basis for human reasoning.
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It's a linear progression starting from God, not a tight
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self-contained loop. Faith in God's revelation
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provides the foundation upon which human reason can then
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properly operate. This fits with classic Christian
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ideas like Augustine's Believe in order to understand or
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Anselm's faith seeking understanding.
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Faith comes first, providing the framework.
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And what if someone tries to avoid having any ultimate
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starting point to dodge the circularity chart altogether?
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Well, the alternative is an infinite regress of reasons.
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If every belief needs to be justified by another belief
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which needs justification and so on, you never arrive at a
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foundation, you just keep going back forever and knowledge
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becomes impossible. Every coherent worldview needs
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an ultimate, unquestioned, self authenticating starting point.
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Otherwise you're stuck trying to justify your reasons forever.
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For the presuppositionalist, the Bible is that ultimate standard.
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Like the ultimate meter stick, it defines truth.
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It doesn't get measured by something else.
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It's the final stopping point. And denying the Bible is the
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starting point undermines the very thing the Christian
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apologist is trying to demonstrate, that people should
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submit to the Bible's authority. You can't prove that by starting
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somewhere else. So if they don't use reason and
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evidence as neutral ground, how do they use them?
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Do they just ignore facts? Oh, not at all.
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That's a caricature. They absolutely use reason and
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evidence, but always interpreted through the lens of the
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Christian worldview. They aim to show the
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foolishness, the internal contradictions and ultimate
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irrationality of non Christian worldviews.
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Often they use transcendental arguments that sounds technical,
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but the idea is simple. They ask what must be true for
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things like logic, science, and morality to even make sense.
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What are the preconditions for intelligibility?
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Exactly how can you account for universal, unchanging laws of
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logic in a purely materialistic random universe?
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How can you rely on the uniformity of nature for science
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if there's no rational basis for that uniformity?
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Where do objective moral laws come from if not from God?
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They argue that only the Christian worldview with a
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rational sovereign God who created an orderly universe and
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moral beings in his image provides the necessary
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foundation for these things we all take for granted.
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So when someone argues from a non Christian perspective, the
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presuppositionalist tries to show they are being
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inconsistent. They are borrowing capital from
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the Christian worldview, like using logic even while trying to
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deny it. They are being irrational
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because they're fighting against the grain of reality as God made
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it. That's a really different way of
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engaging. OK, let's shift to the third
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perspective, Reformed epistemology.
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What's its distinct claim about believing in God?
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Reformed epistemology associated with philosophers like Alvin
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Plantinga and Kelly James Clark makes a claim that sounds quite
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surprising to many people, especially those influenced by
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Enlightenment thinking. It argues that belief in God can
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be perfectly rational, perfectly reasonable, even without being
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based on arguments or evidence in the traditional sense.
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Rational without proof. Essentially, yes.
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Not that proofs are bad, but that they aren't necessary for
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belief in God to be rational. It challenges the idea that you
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must have evidence for relief to be properly held.
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So how does it push back against that enlightenment demand for
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evidence for everything? Well, it critiques that very
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demand. Clark argues that the rule only
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believe what you have evidence for.
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Can't even meet its own standards.
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What evidence do you have for the rule itself?
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More fundamentally, think about all the things we believe
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rationally without explicit proof.
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That the past is real, that other people have minds, that
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our senses are generally reliable, that the sun will rise
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tomorrow. We can't prove these things with
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absolute deductive certainty, yet we rationally believe them.
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Clark says a great deal of what we believe is based on faith,
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not on evidence or arguments. So demanding proof or belief in
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God, they argue, sets a standard we don't apply elsewhere, and
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which might even be impossible to meet from any basic beliefs.
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And this connects back to Calvin's idea of the census
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divinitatus, right? That innate sense of God.
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Yes, that's absolutely central. Reformed epistemology leans
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heavily on this idea, Calvin said.
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God implanted in all men a certain understanding of his
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divine majesty. It's naturally inborn, fixed
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deep within us in the very marrow.
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It's not something learned primarily through schooling or
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complex arguments. It's part of our creative
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nature, and the implication is massive for apologetics.
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People are accountable for unbelief not because they failed
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to grasp a philosophical proof, but because they have suppressed
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this innate knowledge and the clear witness of creation.
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Like Romans, one says this awareness of God doesn't depend
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on mastering the cosmological argument.
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It's more immediate, more intuitive.
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So because of this innate sense, belief in God is considered
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properly basic. What does that term mean?
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Exactly. Properly basic means it's a
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belief that is rational to hold without needing to base it on
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other beliefs or arguments. It's like your belief that you
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see a tree in front of you. You don't typically deduce that
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belief from other premises, you just form the belief directly
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based on your experience. It's basic.
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Reformed epistemology argues belief in God can function in
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the same way for many people. It arises naturally under
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certain conditions because of this census divinitatus.
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They also point out that most people aren't philosophers.
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Demanding everyone base their faith on complex arguments seems
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unrealistic and maybe even unfair.
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God made rational belief accessible more directly.
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Plus, they add, belief in God is more like belief in a person
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that belief in a scientific theory.
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Demanding proof upfront can feel inappropriate, like demanding
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evidence your spouse loves you before trusting them.
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Does that mean they think evidence and arguments are
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useless? Them are they anti evidence?
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No, Clark is careful to say he's not anti evidence.
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He thinks theistic arguments can provide some non coercive
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evidence. Non coercive.
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Meaning the arguments might be helpful, might point towards
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God, but they aren't logically airtight proofs that force every
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rational person to accept the conclusion.
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He thinks they can help remove intellectual barriers for some
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people, but he maintains that rational people could rationally
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reject the theistic proofs. So arguments are fine, maybe
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helpful, but not necessary for rational belief.
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Belief doesn't stand or fall on the success of those arguments.
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If it's not primarily arguments, how does this approach suggest
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belief in God might actually be well triggered or awakened in
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someone? They talk about belief arising
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when people are in appropriate circumstances and their
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cognitive faculties are functioning properly.
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These circumstances aren't arguments, they're experiences
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that evoke or awaken that innate sense of the divine.
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Examples would be things like experiencing the grandeur of
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nature, standing on a mountain, seeing the ocean, the sunset,
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the complexity of a flower. That sense of awe points beyond
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the physical. Or recognizing the incredible
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design in humans, fearfully and wonderfully made, as the Psalm
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says, witnessing the birth of a child, a profound experience of
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life and mystery. Or, conversely, facing the
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reality of death, which can shatter our illusions of
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self-sufficiency and awaken that dormant sense of the divine,
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these experiences, when our minds are working as God
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designed, can directly trigger a rational belief in Him.
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OK, that's a different angle entirely.
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What are some potential criticisms or challenges that
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get raised against reformed epistemology?
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Well, one practical point Clark himself mentions is that it
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doesn't offer a detailed strategy for defending Christian
22:20
belief specifically beyond belief in God in general.
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How do you get from a basic sense of God to the specifics of
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Christ, the resurrection, etcetera?
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It's less clear Critics sometimes worry the focus on
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properly functioning cognitive faculties might subtly give
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human intuition too much authority, perhaps overshadowing
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the work of the Holy Spirit or the role of scripture in
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producing faith. There's also that postmodern
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leaning. Some detect the skepticism about
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achieving rational certainty or universal agreement on big
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questions, which rubs against the confidence of other systems.
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And as mentioned, Clark's openness to evolution as a
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possible mechanism for origins raises red flags for those who
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hold to a more literal reading of Genesis, seeing it as
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potentially compromising biblical authority.
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We've covered a lot of ground here with these three classical
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presuppositional reformed epistemology.
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How do they stack up against each other directly?
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Where is the real nub of the disagreement?
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Yeah, the core tension, the heart of the battle if you like,
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is often seen between the classical and presuppositional
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camps. It really boils down to the
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starting point in the role of reason.
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Classical starts with supposed neutrality, reason facts to
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build up the God, Then Christianity.
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Presuppositional ISM starts with God's word, is the absolute non
23:36
negotiable foundation and interprets everything else in
23:39
light of it, denying neutrality. Now between presuppositionalism
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and Reformed epistemology, there's actually more overlap.
23:46
Both strongly affirm the census to Vitatus.
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Both tend to agree facts aren't neutral but are interpreted
23:52
through a worldview. But a key difference emerges
23:55
around certainty. Presuppositionalists usually
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argue for the rational certainty of Christianity by showing the
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impossibility of the contrary that other worldviews collapse.
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Logically Reformed epistemology, influenced perhaps by
24:07
Plantinga's work and maybe postmodern thought, tends to be
24:10
more modest about achieving universal rational certainty
24:12
that convinces everyone so that. Census divinititis, the innate
24:15
knowledge of God, really is a major dividing line,
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particularly between Craig's classical view and the other
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two. Absolutely, it's a crucial
24:22
point. Presuppositional ISM and
24:23
Reformed epistemology build heavily on it.
24:26
Craig explicitly doubts it. For those who affirm it based on
24:29
scripture. Craig stance look like a
24:31
foundational flaw, ignoring a key aspect of how God reveals
24:35
himself and how humans relate to that revelation.
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It changes everything about why people don't believe in how you
24:40
should address them. And one last comparison point.
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How did these different views understand rationality and
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unbelief itself? That's another key contrast for
24:48
presuppositionalists. Deviating from the Christian
24:51
worldview is fundamentally irrational because you're
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operating contrary to reality as God designed it.
24:57
Unbelief isn't just an intellectual mistake, it's an
25:00
act of suppression of truth that is already known via creation
25:04
and the senses divinitatus. It's willful and therefore
25:07
irrational in a deep sense. Kelly James Clark, however,
25:11
representing Reformed epistemology, suggests rational
25:14
people could rationally reject the theistic proofs.
25:17
This implies that disagreeing or not being convinced by an
25:20
argument doesn't automatically make someone irrational, so they
25:23
have different takes on what constitutes rationality in the
25:25
face of disagreement or a lack of explicit proof.
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This has been really helpful in mapping out the landscape.
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What are some final thoughts or takeaways for listeners from
25:34
this dive into apologetics? Well, I think understanding
25:36
these different approaches first helps you appreciate the depth
25:40
and breadth of Christian thought on these matters.
25:43
It's not monolithic. It equips you to engage more
25:46
thoughtfully with others, understanding why they might
25:49
argue the way they do, what their underlying assumptions
25:51
might be. And it can help in clearing away
25:53
intellectual roadblocks for people exploring faith.
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Arguments don't save anyone. That's the Holy Spirit's work.
25:59
But God certainly uses our reasoned defense as part of the
26:01
process. And maybe the most practical
26:04
take away is the reality of God's constant revelation
26:07
through creation around us and that innate sense within us, the
26:10
senses Divinitatus. It means no one is truly without
26:13
a witness. Everyone has some knowledge of
26:15
God and is accountable for it. Unbelief isn't the lack of
26:18
evidence, but often a turning away from the evidence given.
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So. Thinking about that, what does
26:23
it mean for you, listener? Knowing that everyone deep down
26:27
has this awareness of God, even if they suppress it, how might
26:30
that change how you talk about your faith?
26:33
Maybe it's not always about having the perfect five point
26:35
argument, but about living in a way that reflects God's reality
26:40
and maybe gently showing how attempts to make sense of the
26:43
world without the Creator ultimately fall short.
26:46
Knowing these different starting points gives you a different
26:49
lens for those conversations. Understanding where people are
26:51
really coming from. Well, this has been incredibly
26:54
insightful, really mapping out how those starting assumptions
26:57
shape everything that follows in defending the faith.
26:59
It really does. Concepts like the creator,
27:02
creature distinction, the senses, divinititis, the
27:04
ultimate authority of God's word.
27:06
These aren't just abstract ideas, they fundamentally shape
27:09
how we understand and articulate our beliefs.
27:11
We hope this gives you plenty to think about, reflect on these
27:14
approaches and how they might inform your own understanding in
27:16
conversations prerecorded outro. You've been listening to
27:20
Reformed thinking. Join us next time for another
27:22
deep dive.