Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Sins of the Father - The Death of Dylan Redwine

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Sins of the Father - The Death of Dylan Redwine · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: To lose someone whom you love is one of the
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: toughest things that a human being will ever endure. I
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: know that for a fact because I've had loved ones
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: that have passed on, and I've also been present when
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: I have had to tell people that their loved ones.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Have passed on.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: But you know, some say that next to a death
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: of a loved one, that a divorce is one of
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: the most brutal things a human being can go through.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: You tie a lot of emotion up in it because
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: you see perhaps a failure, you see an end to
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: things that you thought had great possibilities, and there it
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: just crumbles right before you.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: And of course the.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Really sad part is not necessarily going your own way
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: from the person that you thought you were going to
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: spend the rest of your life with. But if you
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: have children, they're left in the wake many times to
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: be battered up against the metaphorical rocks of life. Today,
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about one such child. And this
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: case is special to me because it's a case that
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: I covered early on in my media and it impacted me,
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: I think probably like no other. Today we're going to
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: talk about the murder of Dylan red Wine. I'm Joseph
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Scott Morgan and this is Body Packers, Dave. You know
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: when you're when you're a little boy, and you and
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: I used to be little boys. We spend our time
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: playing and having adventures, getting together with our friends, tossing
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: the ball around, some of the coolest times that you
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: can experience. But I know that for myself, I'm I
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: am a child of divorce. And you, yeah, and you
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: pay a price for it, don't you. I mean, it's
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: not just mom and dad that might pay a price,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: you know, us kids that have been through it pay
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: a price as well. And sometimes those those things go
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: unseen for years and years, and they sometimes manifest themselves
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: later on in life.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: It's interesting how most children that grow up in a
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: nuclear home where divorce is not president. You just have mom,
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: dad and the kids, and all the children have different
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: stories to tell about their own upbringing based on the
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: when they were born, whether they're first born, middle last.
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: And it's the same thing.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: Happens when if you're a child of divorce, except now
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: you extend it out because whereas in a family that
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: is just mom, dad and the kids, they argue about
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: the attention they got, or mom loved you more, Dad
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: loved liked you more, of that whole thing. Well, now
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: it's expanded because now you've got mom and dad, plus
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: oftentimes they're extended spouses and other half brothers and half sisters.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: That it becomes a big pray and some kids have
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: a way of maneuvering through it better than others.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, i'd agree you. And it's like a race
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: you're you're jocking for. I never know what validation actually means.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: People use that term all the time. I never really
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: know what it.
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: Is, ohocke Yeah, approval, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've always thought
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: of that. We all want to approval.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: We want it from our we want it from our
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: mom and dad first and foremost. And the fact, you
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: know what I wondered, Joan in this particular case, because
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: I've covered it too, when when it first began as
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: a missing person, what happened to this thirteen year old kid,
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: A thirteen year old boy, Dylan red Wine goes to
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: visit his dad. Now his mom and dad were divorced
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: and Dylan did not want to go. That was made
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: pretty public fairly early in this whole case, but it
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: was Thanksgiving. He had to go there to be with
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: his dad for Thanksgiving. It was court ordered, so Dylan
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: red Wine went. He arrives at the airport in Colorado.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: Dad picks him up. We have CCTV coverage. That's how
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: intense this case got. We saw him at Walmart, we
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: saw them at McDonald's. You don't see them being overly
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: warm with one another. There was a little distance while
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: they were walking, but you couldn't really see a whole lot.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: But the bottom line, always being the bottom line. Dylan
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: red Wine did reach out to a friend and was
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: going to meet him the next morning. Now he's at
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: dad's house. And one thing to point out, Mark RedWine,
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: the father. His home had burned about six months earlier,
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: and it had recently been remodeled, and this was the
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: first time that Dylan had really been there since it
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: had been remodeled. And that means something, by the way,
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: as we go further into this case, forensically speaking, So
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: Dylan red Wine is at this house. It wasn't unfamiliar territory.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: He did have friends there and he called a friend.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: He reached out to a friend in the evening and
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: they made plans for the next morning at six thirty am.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: They were going to get to get now something thirteen
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: year old boys. Do you know when you're thirteen and
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: you've got the woods open area, you can get out
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: there and just I know I did it, but oh
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: that's an age, you know what as a man now,
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: I want to make sure. I wanted to make sure
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: my boys got it, and I want to make sure
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: my grandson gets it that there is something beautiful like
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: going out in the woods at thirteen and challenging yourself
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: to you know, what can you do.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: I'm in a tree trying trying to get back without
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: an open wound, bleeding.
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: Right, get in trouble. But you you're usually you have
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: a knife though, just in case.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you have a knife. You're gonna you know,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: you're gonna chop wood or yeah, you know, do some whittling,
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: or you're going to play army.
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Just an adventure.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. It is a grand adventure. And you
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: you look at that and you think and and for
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: kids of divorce, that's uh, that's the ultimate. Uh, that's
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: the ultimate fantasy world, isn't it? Because you can get
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: out there and you can.
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: I never put that together, Joe, and you.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Can Yeah, you can escape. You can escape from the
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: tension that's in the house. And interesting, just kind of
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: a little here.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: I used to be.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: I used to watch the show Inside the Actors Studio
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: where the guy would interview that James Lipton. He's passed
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: on now, but he would interview these actors and there
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: was one thing that he would always start off with
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: in these interviews, and he would say, we're going to
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: come to a common theme now that that is a
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: thread that runs through all of our guests.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Here.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: You are a child of divorce, and I would think
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: about that and I thought, wow, you know, where does
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: some of this you know, because I don't really know
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: that many actors. I've got some friends that are but
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: not close friends, but you know, you think about where
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: do they get all this raw emotion from and all
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: these things? And I know as a divorce kid, there
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: is a lot of raw emotion. There's a lot of
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: stuff that you have to work out, work through in
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: your mind. And I don't know. Maybe some are you know,
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: are drawn toward the toward the theater because just for
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: a moment, you can escape whatever your perception of your
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: reality is. At that moment and at Thanksgiving. Imagine Dylan
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: having to be away from the safety of his home
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: with his mother.
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: Where he wanted to be, where he wanted to be.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: And it's joe interesting to point out not only did
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: he not want to be with his dad, the last
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: few times they had been together had been very tension filled,
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: to the point where Dylan no longer felt comfortable around
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: his dad. Plus, Dylan and Corey Corey is Dylan's brother,
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: they had found pictures on a computer of their dad. Yeah,
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: this divorce was already ugly, Okay, just throwing it out.
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: It was already ugly, and apparently Dylan and Corey both
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: had seen some legal documents that painted a very direct
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: picture of what was being claimed by their dad by
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: their mom. But it was the pictures they saw on
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: this computer that actually made them realize, this is not
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: a guy we want to be around. And Dylan did
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: not want to be there, and he had this in
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: the back of his head. And by the way, Mark
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: knew it.
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: He knew it.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the father had a complete and total awareness. And
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: I just so you know, you know, I made reference
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: to how and I don't want to make this about
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: me but just to kind of give you the background
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: when I was asked to cover this case, and I
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: was actually, you know, I cover cases on Court TV.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: I cover cases on a Long Crime network. And I
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: have friends at both places whom I care for deeply,
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: and I'll be friends with many of them for life.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: They asked me, Long Crime asked me to cover this case,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: and they send you this kind of this big packet.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: You know, when you're going through it and when you
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: begin to look at the notes of what you're going
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: to cover, and I begin to read through the scene,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, okay, missing young boy remains have been
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: found in you know, two separate locations. They're skeletonized, he's
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: missing for a time. Oh and then there's these pictures
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, oh, okay, well what are the pictures?
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: And then I had to do a double take when
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: I began to read about them, because you know, these pictures.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: When you're thinking about forensic psychology, there are certain roles
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: that people think about from a sexual standpoint. People have
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: I don't want to call them call them predispositions. That's
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: not necessarily what they do, but they are what are
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: referred to as paraphilias, and there is a particular paraphilia
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: that is out there that's actually called corporophilia, and it
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: is a fascination. I hate to say this on my
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: own show, but it's a fascination with feces, and particular
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: human feces. And if you can imagine, you're a divorced kid,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: you're scared, You've got tension between your parents, and you
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: travel along with your brother Corey, to your father's house
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: months prior to your disappearance, and you're digging through your
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: dad's computer, as you had mentioned, and you come across
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: a file and you look at that file. You're in
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: the bathroom with your brother. The door is locked, and
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: you click on it and there are images of your
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: father dressed in women's lingerie with makeup on and human
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: feces spread all over his face, eating from a diaper. Dave,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: have you ever heard of someone saying I almost died
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: of embarrassment?
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: You ever heard that phrase before?
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: I've used it before. Yeah.
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: I actually you're talking about theater and actors a minute
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: ago and I was thinking, okay, now your name in
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: my life?
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: Did you get my bio as? Yeah?
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: And it was during one of those times where I
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: thought I was going to be so embarrassed I was
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: going to die.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it does happen.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: And look there we commit any number of faux pause
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: in life, you know, things we say things we shouldn't do,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: or we exit the bathroom and toilet paper is hanging
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: out of the backside of our pants, are stuck to
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: our shoe, or we've got spinach in our teeth, or
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: you know, or in my case, when I saw a
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: friend of mine I hadn't seen in years and years,
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: this lady that I was dear friends with when I
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: was a child, and she she I saw her and
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: she said, oh, I'm pregnant. I said, I know, and
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: she said I just found out yesterday. And so the
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: meaning is is that she had physically changed greatly and
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: I hadn't seen her in years.
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: So oh she was that. Okay, I got she had.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Increased in size, and I felt, you know, I turned
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: fifty shades of red. And it was very embarrassed for
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: having said that, And you know, I followed it up
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: with telling her that I love uh, that I thought
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: that she looked lovely, and of course I'm I'm tripping
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: over my tongue.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: The entire time. But when you get.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: When you get to the degree that Dylan's father was at,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: particularly with these this paraphilia that he engaged in, and
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: you document it photographically, you save it, You save these
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: images so that I guess that you can live out
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: this kind of fantastical life when it's not going on,
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: and then suddenly your children find out about it. I
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: would think that that would be, I don't know, an
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: impetus for a rage field event.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: Perhaps there was an interesting twist on this that the
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: boys Corey and markur Dylan rather Corey and Dylan are
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: the boys. They kept it to themselves at first. They
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: didn't immediately challenge Dad. They didn't immediately go to him
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: and say what are you doing?
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: Who are you in it? They held it. They didn't
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: know what to do. I mean their kids.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how's a kid going to know what to say?
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: So imagine here's Dylan. And by the way, Dylan and
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: his father were together on a trip to Boston to
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: play baseball. It was a little league thing that Dylan
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: was a part of. And it was on this trip
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: when Mark, Dylan and Corey both had been talking about
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: confronting their father about these pictures, and Dylan apparently had
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: decided he was going to use this trip to Boston
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: to confront him. He texted, Corey, send me the pictures.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: Corey didn't send him the pictures. I don't know whether
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: he decided I'm not going to let Dylan do it.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna do it. Corey didn't send the pictures Dylan.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: He sent these pictures to their dad on this trip
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: and he wrote some pretty they were from an insulting standpoint,
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: they were pretty awesome. I don't realize I don't remember
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: how old Corey is. Dylan was thirteen, but Corey wrote
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: you are what you eat to his dad with these
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: pictures that he showed him. So now on this trip
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: to Boston, Mark RedWine realizes that both of his sons,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: or at least Corey, knows about the pictures because Corey
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: sent them to him. All I could think of is
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: that at some point in time you mentioned that it's
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: an actual issue. It's a I didn't realize that, Joe.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: I thought, you know, there's all kinds of perversions and
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: things that people get into, but apparently, you know, he
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: was in the closet with this. Didn't want anybody to
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: know about it, and you've got pictures of him wearing
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: a red bra makeup and a diaper filled with Indian food,
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: you know, eaten by a child burst. Yeah, and I
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: just it boggles my mind.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's actually horrible.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: I've seen not just the crime scene photos, but I've
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: seen these seen these images that are you know that
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: that are essentially the little spark that created the flame
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: for everything. And here's an interesting bit of forensic data
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: that arose because there's a whole line of texting messages
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: that went through that kind of ran up the spine
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: of this whole case. When Corey, the older brother, sent
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: that text to his father, Interestingly enough, Mark wrote back
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: and responded to Corey and yeah, and he said, uh,
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: you know, and this is after, uh, after Corey had
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: told him that he's a coward, that he was nothing
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: more than a sperm donor. And then Mark actually texts
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: back to Corey the father and says, uh, telling him
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: not to hurt his brother. Now he's telling the older
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: brother not to hurt the younger brother.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: And you know, I.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Guess he's he's he's saying, you know, don't show him
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: or you know, don't show him these photos, thinking that
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Corey's only won't see him. But you know, going to
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: what you had said earlier, you know, there's kind of
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: disconnecting these these follow up visits that he was having.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Dylan had already seen him, right, This child already had
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: these images, you know, in his mind.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: And that's why I ask you, Joe, because you've covered
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: this more. I thought I had covered it a lot
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: until I looked at what you've done with this case.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: And I hate it for you because I've had nightmares
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: about this one. But when I saw this, and again,
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: my brother and I were he's two years older than
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: I am, when my parents were going through a divorce.
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: And then it's not just the divorce, it's the things
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: that happened after the divorce. And that's what we're dealing
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: with here, is the aftermath. Even though mom and dad
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: didn't seem to do a good job of keeping the
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: boys uninvolved in the divorce, they were very involved. They
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: knew everything that was going on. They're old enough to know,
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: I guess. But when I believe, based on what I
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: have seen, that Mark red Wine actually believed, Yes, Corey
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: has these, don't share them with your little brother. Don't
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: hurt him. Let's keep this between you and me and
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: we'll deal with it. He was trying to save face.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: I thought all the while, he doesn't know that Dylan
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: has seen these pictures and actually wants to confront him
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: about them. But they had already been having a bad
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: time together, as you mentioned. So was do you think
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: that their relationship was so off kilter that Mark RedWine
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: the father didn't realize that Dylan red Wine not only
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: saw the pictures but had formulated his own opinion and
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: that was what was causing the friction in the relationship.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: Or was he so deluded as to think I can
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: turn Dylan to be back on my side in this
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: divorce and you know, we'll just fight it that way.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: No. I think that at this point in Tom, you know,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: probably Mark RedWine realized that he had crossed the rubicon
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: with this, and I think that more than likely he's
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: trying to understand and figure out what he should do next.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: I think that along with this comes this this level
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: of humiliation and concurrently anger, and he's going to strike out.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Remember that, you know he had been texting you had
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: mentioned the Boston going to Boston for baseball, that was
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: back on August the fifth, twenty twelve. It's November the eighteenth.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Remember you talked about Thanksgiving. It's November the eighteenth. He's
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: had to make a trip to his dad. This is
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Dylan by himself, and he arrives at his dad. The
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: last time he's known to be alive is November the eighteenth,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: twenty twelve. So you've got all of this time August
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: to November for all of the stuff to bubble up,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: and who knows what's going on from a communication standpoint
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: during that period of time. Is communication becoming less frequent?
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Do you have you know, angry messages flying back and forth,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: what's being set on the phone for one another? And
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: so all of this plays into trying to determine where
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Dylan is at this point in time. You know, once
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: he goes missing on November the eighteenth, and he's under
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: the care of his father, you know, the dad, Mark RedWine,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: says he had left to go out and run errands,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: and in fact, you know, when he got home he
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: said that, well, you know, Dylan wasn't there. He wasn't
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: he wasn't there, couldn't find him anywhere. And so that's
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: that's troubling. There was some activity on Dylan's phone. I
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: think probably the last phone activity was about nine pm
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: on November the eighteenth, and you know, who knows who
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: was actually using the phone at that point in time
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: to communicate with his friend. You know, Dylan was supposed
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: to go meet up with his buddy, and of course
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: that that never happened.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: I would like to point out Cory RedWine is actually
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: several years older than Dylan. Cory red Wine actually was
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: twenty years old, give or take when when this was
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: going on.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he reached that age of emancipation where he if
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: he doesn't want to go to dad's house, he mightn't
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: have to go.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: Well, I looked at it because I was wondering why,
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: you know, why is it? Because that that had always
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: troubled me, And I was like, wait a minute. He
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: was considerably older, and that's a that's a big That's
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: also why he was so confrontational with his dad. And
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: it also makes sense as to why Mark would address
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: him almost as as a peer, as an adult, saying,
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: don't hurt your little brother, but you know, seeing him
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: as much younger, not realizing that Dylan's the one that
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: found the photos to start with, and told Corey about them.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: But now you've got the conference, the discussion where he's
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: we've got the text messages from Dylan to his friend
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: the evening before the next morning, Mark claims he goes
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: out to run errands and when he got home, Dylan
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: was gone. That's the scenario that he played out and
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: stayed with. This is where the world of forensics foggles
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: my mind, Joe, It really does, because I had no idea.
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: I had no idea of what you guys are capable
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: of figuring out, not just the next day, the next week,
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: the next month.
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: But months and months. I mean, what.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: Can still be found out, what's left behind. There is
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: no perfect crime.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: No, no, there's not. There is no perfect crime. You
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: can't do anything in a vacuum. And I, you know,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I always reflect back. I know of references before you
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: know where the in the Book of Genesis where you know,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: you know, God calls out the cane and says, you know,
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: tells Caine, you know, your brother's blood cries out to
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: me from the ground. And in this particular case, you've
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: got Dylan's blood is actually found within the home and
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: it's not Later reports forensically indicate that it is it
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: is apparently not to the level or volume that would
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: necessarily be an event that is consistent with incompatibility with life.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: You know, where you've just got a tremendous amount of
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: blood that's there that maybe there was an attempt to
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: clean up, but they found They found some on a
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: coffee table, they found some on on on on a sofa,
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: there was actually some beneath the carpet. And interestingly enough,
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: it was a dog that found the blood, you know,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: with in the home, and dogs are so fascinating. You know,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: you talk about us as forensic investigators, but you know
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: when you have an animal at your disposal that has
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: this incredible all factory I call it an all factory spectrum.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: I know that people that are working.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Optimology will probably laugh about that, but that's what I
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: refer to it as it's a spectrum of smell that
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: they have that we we as humans can't even begin
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: to touch. And they are especially trained and on a
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: side that folks might not know. When I worked worked
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: with a medical examiner, we would have a lady that
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: would come by periodically and she would go back into
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: our decomp area and she had rags that she would
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: soak up decomp fluid out of the trays where the
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: body sat and seal them and then take take those
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: rags out into the woods and smear the trees with
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: decomp fluid to train her dogs with so that they
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: would know what decomposing human remnant smelt like. And so
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: these dogs are trained. You've got two separate groups of them.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: You've got them that will track the living. Okay, you
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: think bloodhounds and those sorts of things, and then you
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: have couldaver dogs. And so what's considered to be a
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: cadaver dog, Well, postmortem, there has to be some level
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: of decay that's there, because it's on a different all
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: factory spectrum, if you will. And they hit on these things.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: They can even pick up on the smell.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Blood actually has has a foul.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Odor in and of itself even as it decomposes, and
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: so they'll hit along that spectrum and they'll be able
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: to track. But just within the house alone, they found
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Dylan's Dylan's blood. And here's the thing we're talking about.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: This is not like this would have been necessarily old
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: old blood, because what did you say in the beginning day,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: this man's house had burned, it had been renovated, so
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: this sample that would have been in there would have
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: been something that probably would have been placed down in
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: that area or would have been introduced into that environment
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: post renovation, post fire. So that narrows it down. Because
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: the fire, if I remember, took place like back in
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: March of twenty twelve, and Dylan goes missing November the twelfth,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: and you're left, You're left wondering, well, why would you
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: have multiple spots of this child's blood in this home
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: that you know he does it. He's not domiciled there,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: he doesn't live there all the time, so you know
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: you can explain it. I mean, I've had a spontaneous
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: bloody nose over the course of my life. Heck, I've
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: I've busted my head on different things, and you know,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: had an open bleeding wound. Yet that does happen, and certainly,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: you know, being a qualified former little boy, I know
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: that I have spouted blood any number of ways. But
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: you know it from an investigative standpoint, how do you
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: get past that? This is one of those moments in
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: time where you have to ask bigger questions. And one
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: of the things that we do know this little boy
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: was nowhere in that house. But something tells me the
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: dogs are going to play a.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Key role in discovering diligre Lane Dave.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: I think if I ever do a podcast, maybe as
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: an adjunct to two Body Bags, where we just do
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: a little separate one, I think I might use the
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: title corpus DELECTI. I've always liked that term. It comes
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: from the Latin and it means the body of the crime,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: but many times it is.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: It is in fact the body.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: And there's been a lot of people that have said,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: you can't prosecute a homicide without a body. And I
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: think that for investigators in the Dylan RedWine case, they
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: were wondering if I think that they suspected something was up,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: but they knew that they had to find this child's
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: body if they were ever going to move forward with
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: a case, and certainly moving forward with out a body
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: is a problem.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: So Dylan goes missing November nineteenth, twenty twelve. They don't
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: find him. There was weather situations to deal with with
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: regard to being able to put out a search for him.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: It wasn't until the following year in twenty thirteen when
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: and it was the femur, but it was both femurs, right, yes, yeah,
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: Now what are the odds of finding that, you know,
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: something so specific legbones? Yeah, without finding everything, it just
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: seems odd.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of does to me too.
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: But that's what they found in twenty thirteen.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was actually in June. So this is going
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: to be after everything is thought. Remember we're in a
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: higher elevation in Colorado. It's to say that that Colorado
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: winners of brutal is certainly an understatement. It's terrifying that weather,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: you know, during those periods of time, right, and you
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: know when Dylan went missing, they were right on the
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: cusp of that moment in time. I think that they
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: had already had some snowfall when Dylan had missed, had
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: gone missing back in twelve. But moving forward, you know,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: you have to get out beyond that period the thaw
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: before you're going to find anything. And what did occur
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: is that I think it was roughly ten miles away
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: from Mark Redwine's home that the left and the right
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: femurs are actually found.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: So if you and never found on a road, Joey, Yeah,
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: that was odd. They found it eight miles from his
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: house eight miles from his house. They find the bones,
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: but they're on a road. Why would they find bones
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: on a road in June.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so that to me, many times, if temperature drops, okay,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: you'll have the body that will go into it won't
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: stop decomposing, but it will slow the decompositional process down
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: a bit, particularly if temperatures at a high elevation really
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: start to dip. And so they could have been deposited
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: off of the road some distance, say on an ATV trail,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: And we do know that Mark or red Wine had
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: an ATV and they're deposited there and then once an animal,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: once an animal begins to smell these these decomposing remains.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Remember they're actually found in June. There's nothing to say
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: that an animal would not have come by grabbed this
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: lower portion of the body. And it's not just the
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: lower portion the body. When they found the left and
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: the right femurs, they actually found the right clavical So
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: if you will touch, if you will, if you're listening
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: to my voice right now, it's your collarbone, and it's
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: your right collarbone. That's what they found of Dylan's. And
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: in addition to that, they found the tibia, which is
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: one of the lower leg bones.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: There's two.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: You have the tibia and the fibula that are in
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: the lower leg. Well, they found the right tibia, so
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: you've got two, and it's an odd combination in it, Dave,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: You've got the left and the right femur, which are
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: the large robust bones in the legs. You've got the
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: right clavical which is the collarbone, and then you've got
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: this right tibia. So you know, as forensic forensic scientists,
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: you know, one of the things that you're thinking about
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: once this has been identified as human remains, you can't
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: necessarily say that it belongs to a specific person at
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: that point in time. But when you begin to examine
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: these and you're thinking, well, why do I only have
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: these items? Well, am I looking at a case where
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: we've got an animal that has torn a body apart?
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Or do I have a case where another animal, a
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: human has torn a body apart and deposited the parts
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: in various areas, And so, you know, you begin to
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: think about this. If it's a human, then one of
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: the things that you're going to look for on the
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: surface of the bones are going to be tool marks
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: because that's how that's what we do. We've got opposable thumbs,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: and we work with tools, and so if you're going
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: to take a part of human body, you're going to
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: need the tools.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: To do that.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: And it's very I don't know of any possible way
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: that you could dismember a human remain without utilizing some
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: kind of metal tool in order to do that. So
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: these bones would have to be carefully examined to you know,
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: kind of either rule that in or rule it out.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: One thing they did is after they found the bones
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: in June of twenty thirteen, it took a couple of weeks,
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: but in August, about eight weeks after they find those bones,
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: they're able to search the house and the truck. That's
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: when they find they bring in the cadaver dogs. A
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: human cadaver dog is brought into Mark Redwine's home and
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: that's where the dogs were hitting on saying that there
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: had been the corpse of a deceased person had been present.
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: That's the actual the way they wrote it out. It
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: had been present in that home, also in the uh
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: the bed of his truck. And this was after they'd
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: found those bones. But they didn't find all of them,
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: and one comment Mark RedWine made to a friend of
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: his that really came back to haunt him before they
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: found anything. Mark RedWine made the comment, I guess they
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: were talking about, how do you charge anybody, you know,
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: if he was killed, if he you know, just I'm
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: trying to picture a conversation you would have with somebody
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: that would include the term blunt force trauma from a
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: dad talking about his son when he doesn't know what
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: has happened to his son. Why, for the life of me,
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: I can can't figure out Joe. That's just not a
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: term I would want to use about a loved one,
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: much less would even think about using.
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: But he did.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: Mark RedWine talked about blunt force trauma and well, they
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: need to find his head. Talking about police in order
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: to determine that his son had been murdered by blunt
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: force trauma, Well, they'd need to find his head.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: How is it that you're you're comfortable enough to make
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: that comment and it's so very specific, you know, you
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: can reformulate that to talk about well, you know, gee,
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: I hope they find my son's body and maybe there'll
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: be information can tained on it that'll let us know
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: what happened. Okay, that's that's kind of the sympathetic view.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: But then you begin to look at this from the
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: perspective of, well, you're being very specific here, very specific,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: because blunt force is something that we normally talk about
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: in the realm of forensics and specifically forensic pathology, and
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: it's it's so, it's so, it has such a fine
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: point on it, and not just fine point when you're
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: talking about method that is used, but also Dave, when
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: you begin to think about anatomical location, because he states,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: you know that you'd have to find the skull and
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: and you know, I'm sure, much to his chagrin, Dalan
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: skull was actually found, well, what turned out to be
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: Dylan skull. Hikers actually found the skull on November the third,
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: two thousand and five, fifteen, and it took them all
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: the way to May the twenty fifth of twenty sixteen
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: to get the skull positively identified. At that point in time, why.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: Would it take so long? But I do want to
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: add something to this too, Joe, Yeah, all right, they
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: made a note where his the first the partial remains
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: were found. In June twenty thirteen, they go and discover
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: the cadaver dogs hitting in the house and in the
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: truck bed, and then the hikers. Almost three years nearly,
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: I mean November third, twenty fifteen, is just about three
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: years after he goes missing. They find his skull and
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: it's now further away. It's two miles, it's about ten
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: miles from the house.
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: And the one thing.
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: That Mark RedWine had said out loud is he believed
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: wild animals had attacked and had drug him. And one
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: of the experts of wildlife expert actually determined that quote,
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: no animal known to be in the area would transport
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: a body up the mountain from mister Redwine's residence to
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: the first recovery site, or would transport the skull an
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: additional one point five miles through the terrain where the
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: skull was found. Yes, there's nony indictment.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're they're not going to do that. And I
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: concur with with the with the expert in this case
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: and in my experience with where you have what are
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: referred to as a surface deposition of human remains, which
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: means these are non these are non buried remains, These
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: are these are remains that are left on top of
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: the ground. Now I'm not saying that at some point
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: in time the remains could not have been buried and
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: then kind of dug up.
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: But the surface deposition, yeah.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: Surface deposition. And essentially what that means is that if
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: you think about Okay, I'll give you a good example,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: think about Brian Laundry. Okay, they found him in the swamps. Well,
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: when Brian Laundry's remains were found out in the swamp,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: his body was not buried. That's a surface deposition of
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: the body. In total. Now with with these remains, it's
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: over such a massive area. And David, it's not like
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: it's not like you know, here in the in the
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Deep South, we're gonna walk down a dirt road together
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: carrying something in our hand and throw out one item
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: here and throw it another. You're talking about undulating, uneven
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: terrain that rises and falls at pitches. We can't even fathom,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: particularly those of us that live that are flat landers,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: that live in these in these areas around here, the
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: terrain varies so much most animals when they scavenge. And
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: this is one other thing before I forget it, I
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: wanted to mention when Dylan died or was turned up missing,
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: it was shortly after that that I think that Mark
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: RedWine had had, you know, put forth this idea that
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: perhaps a bear had gotten it. But the experts, and
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: this gives you an idea of the temperatures at this time.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: The experts said that by the time that Dylan had
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: gone missing in November twelve, the bears would have gone
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: into hibernation by that time, so they're not out and about.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: And you compare this to the Morphew case. What did
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: Barry Morphew say about his wife? Well, Mountain Lion.
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: Got mountainline guy.
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's only three. They're very territorial, and the
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: three in the area, and that one was nowhere near
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: where he was.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Isn't it interesting how people blame animals for these sorts
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: of things. And with most surface depositions of skeletal remains,
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: where you have bodies, let's just put it this way,
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Where you have bodies that are you have bodies that
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: are intact, Okay, that means that nothing has been done
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: with them. As they decay on the ground, animals will
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: come and they'll generally start in areas that they can.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Get access to.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: So if you've got a closed body, they're going to
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: go for the face. They're going to go for the fingers,
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: all right, and they start to pull, and as the
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: body begins to deteriorate, things are more easily pulled apart
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: till they begin to tear at the clothing. Now, some
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: of Dylan's clothing was found. There were remnant of clothing
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: out there, including I think shoes as well. But here
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: here's the thing. You're not going to have them spreading
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: remains over this vast, uneven terrain, and I think the
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: skull what was okay, So the lower remains this this
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: deposition of the femurs eight miles away, along with the
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: clavicle and the tibia. That's eight miles away. You've got
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: to go another mile and a half up, you know,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: increasing in elevation where you're gonna find his head. It
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: just it, you know, as they say down here in
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: the South, that dog don't hunt, and so it's just
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: it's just one of those things that it just it
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: defies all logic. Animals are not going to drag if
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: they're in a particular area kind of scavenging. They're gonna
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: grab whatever they can grab. They're going to take it back.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: And the smaller animals you know, you can forget about
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: that because if you're talking about coyotes, these are not huge,
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: robust animals where they're gonna walk miles and miles and
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: it's not like the savannahs of Africa or a lion
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: or something. They're not gonna walk miles and miles and
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: miles with something that they're gonna they're gonna eat. They're
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: going to go very short distances, sit down, and they're
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: going to begin to ingest their food.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: So if that is what happened, this makes no sense.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: But what does make sense is you've got body parts,
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: you've got his remains found at eight miles away than
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: a mile and a half up the mountain, you find
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: his skull. But what did they find on the skull, Joe,
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: Because we remember Mark RedWine made the comment, well, they
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: can't do anything without finding, you know, without the head
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: because and he mentioned that's where the blunt force trauma
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: came in. By the way, still an unexplainable comment that
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: he made, and it has been brought up at court.
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: It was brought up in each stage.
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: Of along this way, because who would say that other
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: than somebody guilty of doing such a thing. But what
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: did that skull tell investigators.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Well other you know, well baseline they were finally able
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: to get Dylan's remains identified off.
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: Of oh yeah, okay, back to that you said, Okay,
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: they found the skull in November, but it was May
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: of the next year before they could even identify it.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the images that I've seen of the skull
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: seems like that it would make dental id very very
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: difficult on him. And by the time you're Dylan's age
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: in life, you will have had some type of dentistry performed.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: And many people might not know this. I'm sure that
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: DNA came came into play in Dylan's case, But did
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: you know that there are certain cases where we're trying
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: to identify bodies if we don't have teeth. Well, actually,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: forensic codentologists who look at the dental X rays, well,
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: we've I've been involved in cases where we use the
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: sinuses to identify people. So you can do a comparison
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: between sinuses of anti mortem X rays with post mortem.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: X rays of the skull.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: So if you've got you know, you've got sinuses throughout
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: your head. They're not just anterior, you have some posterior
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: as well. There are these little chambers in your body,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: and they have certain patterns when you look at them
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: on radiographs X rays. You can actually compare antimortem with
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: post mortem images and you can get X rays. You
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: can use that as a starting point to get the
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: identification done, and then a forensic anthropologist will take the
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: skull and they'll begin to do measurements in a very
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: broad sense. So when you're a thirteen year old, your
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: skull has not fully matured at that point to the
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: same size that it's going to be when you're a
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: full grown adult. So there are certain measurements that forensic
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: anthropologists will make in order to determine does this individual
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: fit it within this demographic that we're looking for. We're
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: talking about thirteen year old white male. Does this skull
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: that we have even begin to marginally fit into that?
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: And so you begin to narrow down from there. But
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: further examination by the forensic anthropologies found found four items
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: that are of significance. First off, they found evidence of
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: these kind of what we refer to as curvelinear fractures
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: on the skull. And when I say curvelinear, it's a
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: fancy way of saying that You've got these fractures that
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: are kind of in a line, but they also slightly curve,
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: and that gives you an idea that and they're separate,
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: they're not communicating, which means that they do not touch
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: one another. Those are two specific areas of blunt force
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: trauma that Dylan would have sustained, and these were located
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: in the back of the head. The skull fractures do
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: not appear to be depressed skull fractures where the plug
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: of bone has been knocked down in there, but it's
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: enough potentially of a concussive four that it could kill him.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: And here's the other thing that will send a chill
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: up your spine about this. Remember how we were going
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: on about how these remains were separated, Well, Dave, one
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: of the things that the forensic anthropologists found on Dylan's
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: skull were two tiny linear tool marks that are consistent
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: with a knife blade.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: So what does that tell us?
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Why would this child have knife blade marks on the
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: external table of his skull. Now, one of the defense
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: experts at Mark Redwine's trial actually put forth the idea, well,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: that's probably from an animal. The teeth marks of an
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: animal look completely different than a milled edge of a blade.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: And these things are very uniformed. You can tell that
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: this was generated by a tool. So the big question
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: you have to ask after Mark redwinelet was put to
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: shame as a result of what his boys had discovered.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: After he thinks about it for some time about what
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: he's going to do, did he allow that colonel to
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: be planted within his brain that drove him into such
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: a fit of rage that he would get his son
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: by himself on a Thanksgiving holiday, get him in that
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: house alone, beat him to death and destroy his mobile remains.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this his body backs