Latest / The Leader in You / 103. Why Conflict Isn’t Really About the Content: 5 Years of Emotional Connection

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103. Why Conflict Isn’t Really About the Content: 5 Years of Emotional Connection · The Leader in You

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Experience work interactions in a different and refreshing light.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is the Leader in You podcast brought to you by EMC Leaders, taking care of the teams you care about.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: We bring the signs of attachment and emotional connection with insight from the last 20 years to share how you can overcome conflict issues at work and build strong team relationships as well as the connected culture.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leader in You podcast.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to be here.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Paulina, and um the Leader in You podcast is brought to you by EMC Leaders, and I co-host this amazing podcast with the wonderful Dr.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Lola Gershfeld, who we have here today.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Dr.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Lola.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, hello, Paulina, and I'm very excited about today's episode.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: We have a special guest.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we do, and that was coming next.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love to introduce to you, all of our listeners, and those of you who watch us on YouTube.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: We are so excited to welcome Ramin to our podcast today.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Ramin.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Talking to Lola and to you, Paul Anna.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're so excited to have you here.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Today is a very exciting day.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Today is the five-year anniversary of your book that you guys wrote together called Emotional Connection: Building Trust and Resilience in the Workplace.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a five-year anniversary.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, it's come back.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: And we have the launch of the second edition of the book.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we are excited to have you here to talk about kind of the process of how this all evolved and the impact that this has had in your life.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Wanted to start off with something that I read.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, I love this book, by the way.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: It is a guide that I used with my kids and with everything that I do in my life.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I was reading the forward of the book, and there's one thing that you say here that I thought was so wonderful.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of wanted you to speak a little bit about this part.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a section here, and you say, I have come to learn that it is not the content that drives most complex, but rather the emotions that have been triggered and the cycle of negative events that follow automatically and with consistency, they widen the rift, making it difficult to reconcile.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: So tell us about like your experience and how has that impacted your life and like what motivated you?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: It what was like the drive that got you to write that.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you for for uh picking up on that.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and and really that I think that's the essence of the book.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh as Lola and I kind of began to talk to each other about uh uh these topics and and the fact that that a book could come out of it, and uh it really is that unfortunately we always start out with the negatives, right?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: We we see people in conflict, we see people not able to work together.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: I certainly have had my share of uh not only personal uh issues, but also seeing um the organizations that I have led um come to a halt sometimes because of these things.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: And um what happens is that I think our basic training, our basic educational models uh focus so much on our cognition, on our content.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it makes a lot of sense because what separates us from other animals is really our frontal cortex, and which is kind of much larger.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so you would naturally think that our logic uh um is what drives everything.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and the reality is that in conflict, logic isn't the driver, it's the emotions that are the driver.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and I think you know, we'll talk about this some more today, but uh part of it is that in business we are um, and I would say maybe even in everyday life, we are averse to talking about emotions, we're averse to making emotions be the center stage of the uh uh as Lola calls it likes to call it, kind of the third party that we should all be focused on as opposed to each other, because we both all all people are generally well-meaning.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that this this thing gets in the middle, triggers a lot of uh reactions, and then boom, we're off to the races.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so uh to me it's it's it's really one of the major um values that I hope this book has brought to people and continues to bring to people.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not just this book, but there are others who talk about these topics, which is that emotions really matter, and they are there is not the content that drives um in some ways both negative as well as positive.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: It is not the content that drives the deep positive, meaningful connections, it is the emotional connections that people have that drives uh that uh that that that value.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Lola and I've talked about it in different ways, but you know, where one plus one is equal to many, three, four, five, six.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's not bad math, it's actually good math, uh, in the sense that it creates uh much more than we would expect because people have trust, because people are emotionally connected.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it it both helps repair as well as inspire.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: So beautifully said.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Lilla, do you want to add anything to that?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think um from our journey together with Ramin as we were writing this book, it was um interesting to put emotion as the core concepts that people have been missing.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: People went from cognitive understanding to behavioral understanding, and then they kind of skipped emotions and went to the brain to you know how the brain works.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I I love that Ramin um saw the importance of putting that in a book.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember as we were working through it and writing it together, how many times we would uh kind of like pause and say, wow, emotions are so powerful and really drive our behavior and drive our responses.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I was um listening to Les Greenberg, he was the originator who developed the emotionally focused therapy with Sue Johnson, and he he put the emotion is the core organizing element that creates connection and creates disconnection in relationships.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And he recently um said this quote, which I really liked that when people are disconnected and have uh relationships that maybe um was broken or damaged, in order for them to heal that relationship, they have to feel their emotions.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: So in order to heal, you have to feel.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: And in the same thing happens in our relationships at work.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: When people get sometimes a message that somehow they're not important or not valued, they first have to recognize and understand their emotions, what happened for them in order for them to heal that particular situation or that injury.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I think emotions play a very big role, and I appreciate that Ramin uh was there with me to write it in such a way that makes sense for people to understand that before we have to fix the content or talk about the content, we really have to organize our emotions and share them in a professional and safe way.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we do have a lot of new listeners and a lot of um a new audience since you've been on the podcast, Ramin.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I would love for you to just share what is your background and how did you find yourself in this space?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And how did you meet Lola, Dr.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Lola?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that's always a wonderful uh story.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, I've spent most of my career um running institutions, uh academic, academic medicine uh institutions, uh, both in the US and and and abroad.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and now I um I lead a group of uh colleagues uh in a humanitarian organization called Chemists Without Borders.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: And um but all of it uh has always been about transformation.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: All all of my work has always been about kind of moving from X to Y, sometimes not even knowing exactly where Y is, but knowing that we're not happy at X, so therefore we got to go somewhere.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: And um and all transformations require uh trust, trust in each other.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because it is it is literally going to a land you don't know, it's literally going to a place you haven't been before.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: And that um that's that's scary uh for all of us.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so how do you build trust?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and uh and I guess unknowingly, I I've always built them around emotions, but uh uh but now I'm more educated, so I I I can you know put it out there as a as a concept, but it really is around that.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um how we met is um is that um I was running one morning.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we we we used to live, we we used to be neighbors kind of.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: I was running one uh one morning and I saw uh this uh this woman walking and writing on a piece of paper.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it kind of seemed odd that uh if you're walking, walk.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: If you're gonna write, go to your office.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: But she was doing both at the same time.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: So we stopped, we talked, and we started to realize how similar our experiences are.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um I used to teach leadership at the University of Pennsylvania, and um and it was always about emotional connection because that's what leaders do.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: They connect, uh they connect beyond the transactory or the content or cognitive basis, they connect at a deeper level.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, so that's kind of how we got to to the topic of well, why don't we try to put all this together so that we can help people um do this more regularly?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really the purpose behind this book is to uh first shine a light on why it's important to have emotional connection.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, second is to create an accessible approach, you know, so that people can do this.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't, it's not magical.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to have you know um multiple degrees to do this.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: People have been doing this since the beginning of time.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um and um uh they also equally important how to repair and correct when something has gone off the rails, which happens a lot, because if we're trying to build connections, that means we're doing something new, which means that there's always something that doesn't go right, someone um feels one way or another.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, as it related to the book, one of the biggest factors was to take away the stigma of emotions at work.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: I cannot tell you how many times I've heard one of my managers or one of my directors say something to their employee like, emotions don't have a place here.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: When I tell you to do something, just do it.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And and I cringe, you know.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm of course I'm their boss, but I try to support them, but I cringe and it's like, yeah, but it actually has everything to do with what they're talking about, and um, and then on a larger scale, when you look at society, which is the work that I do now, I look at society as a whole, it is the disconnection that's driving the divisions, and so we'll talk more about that.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: But that's kind of how we met, that's kind of how we got to this book, and and um, and that it is even though it's oriented toward business, it really is oriented toward life.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because yeah, the the whole point is to break down the life versus business concept.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's all one life, it's all one life just spend in different times times of the day.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Some of it is sleeping, some of it with people.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: You build something together, some of it is family, some of it is alone, hopefully.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and um, not loneliness, but alone.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's all one life, and it all builds around the way we interact with each other, and um, so I think uh I I love this book for many reasons.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I understand that businesses want to use them, that's great, but it's really about life.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: That is so beautifully said.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much for sharing all that.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I want I have a few more questions, but I know Dr.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Lola wants to address it.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love this concept that it's all life.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: You are so right.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I remember going, you know, reading leadership books, and we're always trying to figure out congruency.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: How can we be congruent with what we are at work and when we are off work?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it that that is always a question for people to say, like, why do you behave differently at work than at home?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, the more congruent I think people can be, the more happier they will be, because then they will be themselves.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Then then themselves they can be at work and at home.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: As I work with teams and organizations, and through my journey, learning about that when you are emotionally connected, you can be yourself, you can be congruent.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think that's a great, great concept.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is life.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the congruency too is like people could think one thing, you know, say something else, and then their actions are different, and that misalignment of their thoughts and their, you know, words and their actions, because they get disconnected in that path that causes a lot of stress, you know, it causes a lot of stress for themselves, and then they get that thrown off balance and unable to be themselves everywhere and anywhere at work in their house, in their work, whatever in their life.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you just said something very interesting because um I remember uh reading about Mahatma Gandhi, and he would uh say that uh he would give two-hour speeches and he never used any notes.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that I always I always what what I thought I delivered through my words, I used to think, wow, that is amazing, how free it is to be yourself in moments of time, and how how it is uh satisfying to share your thoughts and ideas as who you are everywhere you go.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that's always inspiring.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Paulina?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: I know you brought up Gandhi.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but Gandhi is an example of many leaders who, through their lifespan, spend what I call considerable time in the wilderness.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, if you study the life of any leader, um, you see that there are periods of time where they were, you know, kind of successful doing things, people listen to them, they listen to people, and so on and so forth.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then they enter a period of wilderness.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: For some, it's a long period, for some shorter, but where interestingly they're irrelevant.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody wants to hear what they have to say anymore.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: Gandhi went through that.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and this period of wilderness uh is actually intended, and it's not that anyone um uh engineers it, but it happens to all of us, is that when we lose connection, when we start to say words and and do things that we feel are important to do, and then we must do them, and that's how it works, and we lose connection with the very people that we're trying to lead.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't understand them really because we've now kind of gone to this other plane.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: And Gandhi spent 30 years in in uh in the wilderness, if you will, um, uh, before he emerged as the Gandhi that we know, and he emerged out of that because he was able to connect at an emotional level with the very poorest of India.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: He no longer saw them as intellectually poor because that's what he used to see them as.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: His intellect said, you know, there's poor, there's he was one with them, and that's what changed the dynamics of India and and through him.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Now, of course, there's a lot of controversy about what he did, what he didn't do, and so on and so forth.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: But what we but there is no controversy in the fact that leaders who emerged out of wilderness, they emerge almost all of them with one thing in common.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: They have built an emotional connection with the very people that they intend to lead.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: Even if they don't know it yet, that's what the transformation has caused them.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and that is part of what happens.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we got to get hit over the head um to do that emotional connection.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks to Lola, you don't have to be hit over the head, just read the book and you could do it without having to um go through the wilderness necessarily.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and if you do, you have a guidebook that helps you come back.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's so funny because I left to Maui, you know, like eight almost eight years ago on that same kind of reason, just connecting from all the people that I wanted to be connected with.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then in the eight years I was there, I spent a lot of time working on my relationship with my kids and my my mom and other people in my life, and then came back to reality, or I should say California, um, just less than a year ago.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's it is really it's like you're transforming to the other side of what you know, what it looked like before where you were struggling and felt like there really wasn't a way out that you really understand now after after that work.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, I think I did both.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I got hit by I got hit on the head and I used the book, you know.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: The hit on the head sent me to the book, you know.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, that's a really good, that's a really good point.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: I did, I do remember uh reading about that actually when I was in Maui because I felt like very kind of lost, you know.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, what am I doing?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and I read about how, you know, yeah, there was like this period of time where people just like these leaders, these really great leaders, just like disconnected and were out in nature and out in the wilderness and kind of took time off, and people didn't even know like who they were then became they became known after that that designated amount of time that they were gone.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very interesting to hear that.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I think that the hitting over the head happens with that negative cycle, right?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: The negative cycle hits people over the head and they are just scattered.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they are they have lost away to each other, they have lost uh connection and they have lost um uh communication.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember with my days when I when Jack and I we were building companies, we had like a hundred people working, right?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we were always worked so well together, and then something hit over our heads and we got lost.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: We got lost in this um difficult conversations where we would just have the same old pattern come back, you know, long meetings, no progress, somebody shuts down, somebody becomes angry, and then people cry.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was just talking to Jack and saying, like, my gosh, I remember how many people cried in our companies.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the purchasing department manager cried, and the engineering manager cried, and this person cried.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you just see people really, really struggle, struggle with all different uh ways of connecting with each other and not knowing that we actually using to protect ourselves in that moment because we just don't know how to deal with emotions.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it is very painful, and uh it is also very freeing once you learn the process and you understand what's going on, and you can actually restructure your patterns.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's that is very empowering.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I have another question, Ramin.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us do you have like a transformational experience that you have had in your life after learning the EMC process and writing this book and implementing some of those processes into your life in the workplace?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Did you have a transformational experience?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um sure.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh I I I I think it would be false to say that there is a experience.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: There are they're basically continuous set of experiences.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Experiences as as we live.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I think it's good to separate the kind of relationships.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the uh emotional connection work is one where I can use that as a way of helping my colleagues understand the difference between kind of a transactional relationship that we build with people, or a transactional connection, or even cognitive.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: In the case of scientists, you know, they they know a lot, they do a lot, they they they believe that just because they know a lot, everyone should listen to them.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, it doesn't kind of work that way anymore.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe there was a time when, you know, it did, but I would even venture to say that there really has never been that time.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: That there is that connection that's necessary that happens at a very different level, where trust is built.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: And once trust is built, then people can hear what you have to say, and you can hear what they have to say, which is the second and equally important part of connection.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: So um I I would say that uh the the biggest transformation, at least right now, is really that when I began to work at Chemist Without Borders, which is um the organization that I lead now, uh, which is you know, at one level is a humanitarian organization.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: We go out there and try to do good stuff out there uh in in various parts of the world.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: But at another level, it really is about building an emotional connection with society, because science is um uh is not trusted as much as it used to be.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: We have a widening gap between what science says and what society does, and um, and how do we build bridges?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: How do we get people to talk to each other again?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: And um, how do we get people to trust each other?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm talking about both sides of the uh the process.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that to me is our my entire work now is really built around that connection, and it all emerges out of, you know, I'm not gonna give it a label necessarily of EMC or emotions, those are all important.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's really more about getting people to connect with each other at a level that's deeper than content, that's deeper than transactions, deeper than expertise, and um and that's so couldn't think of any bigger transformation.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's the transformation of an entire view of how we proceed with our role in society.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's so beautiful.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And what about relationships that you have had in your life?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: How do you feel like the EMC process or what you have written in the book has helped, you know, build that close connected relationships in your life?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I say this book is not about work, this book is about life because it starts with the very, you know, how can you help anyone else?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: How can you do anything else if your very closest people you're not interacting with?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so, um, as they say, charity starts at home.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're gonna have connections, let's start at home first and then see how you can take those elsewhere.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, of course, I think you know, some of the uh there's several pieces to this.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think one piece is that recognizing that emotions exist in the room.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I know it sounds very obvious, but we think content exists.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: I said this, you heard that.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: So let me correct it.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: But no, it's emotions that are existing right now.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: The second aspect is realizing that emotions are at that point driving everything.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the harder part because we think our cognition drives everything.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's why we try to over-explain everything in a in a in a uh in an argument.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: The third is knowing how to take someone's emotion.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: That was the most important thing that I um learned in the book and from the book, and doing the book, uh, trying to outline this, is that how do we receive other people's emotions?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're actually pretty poor at that.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: We we we get afraid, we get scared, we don't even know what to say.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: Huh?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: We get offended, we take it personal.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: We and and or one of the things I used to do, and and I hopefully will do do a lot less of it.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: I guess you have to ask the people around me, um, is try to fix everything.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like, no, it's not about fixing, it's just about creating a space, it's about creating a a space where people can share their emotions.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because once they share their emotion, actually, much of the work is done at that point of the beginning of the connection process.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: Now we got to kind of go through the other parts of it, of understanding where that comes from, understanding how how we can respond to it, and so on and so forth.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say that the the greatest help in relationships for me has been the ability to not try to fix things, but rather just hear what's the emotions that are being said, and then and and then together exploring both how the the person is responding to me and how I am hearing it, and then trying to work through that.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's not very technical, Lola, but you know me.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it reminded me of a conversation uh long time ago.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: You and I, Ramin, we had this, and I keep telling you, Ramin, we need two people to do the process.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's always two people, and you kept saying it, well, Lola, I think people can do it themselves too.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: What if the other person doesn't want to do it?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and I said, Well, you still need to have the other person.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: And um, recently I worked with uh with a manager who um his colleague and him got into a terrible negative cycle, and the colleague was not available to do a session, and so I just did it with the manager, and after three sessions, the manager was able to create such a safety for the colleague that a colleague has transformed from being aggressive and intimidating for this manager to being calm and supportive and even, you know, um, a show of care.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and I and as I was working with that manager, I was thinking about you, Ramin, because I thought to myself, wow, Ramin is right.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, if the other person is not available, you still have the power to do something about your own balance, your own regulation, your own emotions, so that you can calm through your presence and through your uh responses and just holding that space, you can tune into the other person's emotions, as you said.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how do we receive, how do we respond to emotions and regulate them in a in a right, not in a manipulative way, but as a as a supportive way, because you care about that person, you want to have a relationship with that person, but that person may not be open to do this this work.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: So now I have to go back and say, Ramin, you were right.
• 29:39
  unknown: You're right.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: You can use this process on your own with yourself, and you will still make a difference.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for teaching me that lesson, what, five years ago?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, of course, I think the most effective thing is when people are are interacting.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, we have forms of this.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: If you if you you know, you know, movies unfortunately form so much of our societal behavior because we kind of watch them, everybody watches them.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: And but in movies, we kind of have this very uh elaborate, uh, very uh visual ways of doing this, which is that people kind of vent, right?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the typical vent, right?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: They go through this venting process, you know, you see them going over to the batting cage and and hitting ball after ball, getting rid of whatever it is, you know, and um or you know, going off and screaming into the wind, or but some of this is just kind of regulation of emotions.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: But um uh it you don't have to do all that in that uh kind of visual way.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: Part of it is just simply recognizing that you have emotions in this process, that emotions were triggered by the other party, whatever the other party is, and that uh okay, well, let's figure out how you can go about repairing this.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but maybe sometimes the first step is just you.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: You just need to kind of get, you know, get yourself to a place where you can.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it actually is hard sometimes to hear the other person.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to kind of get yourself to a place where you can hear the other person.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe time does it, but we all know that time doesn't really do much.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh and then of course recognizing the patterns as we talk about in the book, between the between the people who kind of go at each other, the people who kind of you know run away from each other, and then the the combinations.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: And uh um, and just recognizing those patterns.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, that's a personal thing in the sense that you were asking, Paulina.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Just recognizing that you know, I tend to kind of want to be on the dance floor and please tell me what's going on, let me help you, let me fix it, whatever.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: And there are people in my life that would just like to say, you know what, I I I can't right now.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I need to process this on my own, or I need to, and then you kind of have to recognize that.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think that was one of the um the ways it which it personally has improved my relationships, just recognizing that not everyone wants to be on the dance floor at the same time.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, well, one of the things I really enjoyed working with you, Ramin, is that you were willing to be on the dance floor, you know, even with our with our moments when we disagreed and we had these uh, you know, like stressful uh conversations.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: I always knew that you would be there for me because you would always respond to me.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I always appreciated that a lot.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's so nice.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was also looking here at this book, it says you have questions for reflection in every chapter, which I really like because you know, the I think that once you are very aware of your cycle and the conflicts that you have with someone instead of like getting right into the negative cycle, you start to become more curious as opposed to getting into the cycle, right?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: You get to a point where the connection is so secure that you're more curious about what's going on as opposed to getting triggered and getting caught into the negative cycle.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that um uh, you know, we wrote the book uh in amidst the pandemic.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: And um what's what's fascinating about this book is that it applies today just as well as it did back then.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and it will continue to apply because I think all of us live within um several critical elements that throw us off course.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: One is adversity, things bad things happen to us, the other is complexity, which is that the things that happen to us aren't so simple, they're happening to us in a variety of things that we can't control, all the elements of which.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then the last of which is uncertainty, more and more uncertainty, and we are unsettled by that.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: But all of that have one thing in common as far as remedies, and that is trust.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: And trust can only occur when we're able to build those connections with the people that matter to us that we interact with.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think this book, along with other books that emphasize these issues, are really critical for our not only our survival, but our thriving as a society.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and that really matters to me, um, as as I hope it matters to everyone.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um the uh if we look at LinkedIn as an example, which is a professional kind of a site, um homo economicus seems to be the major point of every conversation, but over time, if you kind of look at it, it has changed.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: We we are now talking a lot more about people, about the Homo sapien in all of us, not just the Homo economicus in all of us.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that requires connection to be a human with another human, you have to connect.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: And um, maybe in the day of AI, we don't need to connect with AI, but connect with other humans, we have to connect at the human level, at the emotional level, and that's really what I think this book uh helps people do and brings issues to the forefront.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I love that.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to finish with the with a quote: When people are valued and cared for, they are capable of achieving extraordinary results, even at the worst of times.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what it does for us.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: The connection that we have uh creates such a resilience that we can achieve really and deal with anything that life throws at us.
• 35:58
  unknown: Yeah.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, that was beautiful.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, Remen, for joining us today on today's podcast.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: We're so excited that this book is now available for those of you who are listening.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can get it on Amazon and you can also go to emcleaders.com to get it as well, along with all of the materials that you need to learn how to create a thriving workplace environment.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, Dr.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Lola.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Rimin, for being uh here.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: Great, thank you.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, everyone, for listening.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's a joy to share these podcasts with you.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure to check out our previous podcast and subscribe to join us at our next podcast of The Leader in You, brought to you by EMC Leaders, taking care of the teams you care about.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Until then, be well and be focused on your relationships.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you soon.