Latest / But We Had A Plan | A Disaster Nomad Podcast / Ep 06: George Building Collapse - You can't surge trust
Transcript
- Jessica van Schalkwyk: hello, and welcome back to But We Had a Plan. My name is Jess. I am your host for today, and I am joined by the wonderful Lavenia Nicholson. Now I spent good few years working with Lavenia at the Western Cape Provincial Disaster Management Center. And Lavenia, I know that you were a deputy director there for many, many years. You were also a member of UNDAC. And I know that you recently retired from government, but given how bad you are at sitting still, What is it that you are doing these days? Lavenia: Sjoe. Yes, I do really have an itchy side of me, so I retired at the end of April. I've retired a year or two earlier, which I think is a good thing. I think I retired at the right time in my career, in my life. So for the last six months or so, I've been getting up when I want to. I go shower when I want to. I walk my dog when I want to. It's very liberating. But on the serious side, I've opened up my own consultancy called Adam. So in 2015, on Nelson Mandela Day, 18th of July, my daughter gave birth to a beautiful son, and he was named Adam, or he is named Adam. And it had such an impact in my life emotionally, and just as a grandmother and as a mother to my daughter, I thought no I have to use his name somehow. And the most coincidental thing is Adam actually signifies humankind, you know, and don't we do that for disaster management? So I've taken his name and used these letters as Advanced Disaster And Mitigation Solutions. So that's what I've been doing for the last six months. So this has been quite a journey. besides Adam, which I've just started and very proud of. I've joined the International Association for Disaster Management, all very new to me. And they've appointed me as a secretary to the training and certification committee. So that also keeps me busy. Jessica van Schalkwyk: This is Lavenia: So it's also a whole new learning space, getting lots exposure. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: and besides that I I do my own I love gardening, I love mosaicing. I joined the ladies' rotary who does so much work with, you know, the underprivileged and with children and women in need. So I keep myself busy. my husband retired like three four years before me and I thought we were gonna kill each other but actually we d we we we coping we're coping. yeah we we're coping somehow. We're not killing each other. So that's what I've been doing, Jess. Jessica van Schalkwyk: No, that's amazing. And I was so excited when I saw that you were starting, Adam, because I think there is so much that you bring to the sector and so much that other people can gain from from your experience and the work that you've done with the UN, with the center. and I'd love to know what what area in particular are you passionate about when we talk about this sector and we talk about responses, for example. Lavenia: Yeah, so over the last couple of years in in government, it's it's always been fascinating to me what makes us click, especially in the Western Cape. And you you know, we we always brag in the Western Cape, we are the best run province and all that. but there's something in the culture of of the Western Cape government and the Western Cape Centre that that allows us to click. So for me, my passion is has always been preparedness and response. And I think the relationships that you make along the way is so important for that preparedness and response. But more so response has always been my passion. I I love the chaos. I I love my heart racing and you know that running kind of feeling that I'm gonna do good. and whether it's just a phone call or doing a situation report or even you know talking to other colleagues Jessica van Schalkwyk: talking Lavenia: about getting something right, you know somewhere you've made some sort of impact in somebody's life. So response has always been my passion and with the response obviously comes with the relationships that we've built up along the way. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. That's it's such an important part of of how we get anything done. And I know that there's an example that's close to your heart and and that's the the building collapse that happened in George in 2024. and for those who who aren't familiar with it, there was a five story building that collapsed in George in the Western Cape and it triggered a major multi-agency response. And I know that you were inv involved in that activation and the response. So can you take us into that moment, into that scenario and explain for people who who are unfamiliar what the scenario and coordination environment actually looked like from your perspective? Lavenia: you know, I've I've dealt with many responses. I've well, I'm not a first responder, let me just put it out there. I'm not a EMS person, I'm not a a search and rescue person. I'm a disaster manager. And so to be called to a scene like that was probably the one of the most emotional responses for me as a disaster manager, Because normally we coordinate from a distance. You know, we we're sitting in another space. But to be part of George Building Collapse was heartbreaking, but also amazing to see all the good work that so many people do. so we there were three of us, first the head of center, Mr. Colin. And then myself and another colleague that responded immediately. And also as a provincial disaster manager, you don't normally sit at the incident forward command post. But as a disaster manager, you need to be flexible with these things and and and just go with the flow and see how you can help wherever you need to help. So being at the heart of the rubble, basically, was eye-opening. At the same time, amazing to see how the George community can come together. You know, and how people respond to an incident of that nature. Also heartbreaking to witness the families that were so close by and their experiences. But Overall, I think if it wasn't for the relationships that we had built before the time, it it it would have been more difficult for us as a provincial disaster manager coming into a local space, Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: you know, and helping out. So I was the most highly paid personal assistant, driver, Jessica van Schalkwyk: Ha ha. Lavenia: coffee maker. besides all the other coordination because my head of center was in the rubble he Jessica van Schalkwyk: Thank you. Lavenia: was a search and rescue guy he comes from a search and rescue fire background, so he was on site and but that's what that incident needed from me at that time And I just wanna put it out there. Sometimes people always think disaster management's all this glorified, to do things that you're gonna do policies and you're gonna do strategic documents and sometimes it's as basic as supporting your colleague Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: by making his or her life easier. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: So yeah, it's it it was a horrific incident, but I think the coordination and the amount of EMS or or emergency response that we got, and the community volunteers was amazing. Was really amazing. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. It's incredible. It's that the relationship piece there and and having those those connections. And it's come up with a lot of the the guests that I've spoken with recently is like bringing it back to just being human and the human connection element that I think we are missing more and more as we get absorbed into the world of Trying to make things move faster and advancing things with technology is like when there's a response and you're on the ground, in that moment is like, what does it take to to really just be human in the moment to make everyone's lives easier? Yeah. And Lavenia: Hm. Definitely. Jessica van Schalkwyk: can like from from that experience, do you think that effective coordination can be created in the moment, in an emergency, or do you think that trust has to be there beforehand? Lavenia: You look the UNDAC through my UNDAC training as well, you don't know anyone when you respond. But they train you in a certain way that even if you don't know anyone, you still got the trust aspect between your fellow colleagues. They train you in a certain way that you need to be able to adapt to certain circumstances. But obviously having the trust and the relationship makes coordination a hell of a lot easier. A hell Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: of a lot easier. Instead of trying to phone somebody that you don't know, you don't know their Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: background, you don't know their personality. you don't know if he's coming or she's coming with all the egos and the rank and everything else when you when you, you know, reach Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: out to that person. So it does make life a heck of a lot easier if you've got that trust. And the only way you're gonna get that trust is obviously to be transparent with your with your organization and and colleagues. And to be responsive, you know. so for me trust comes hand in hand with your relationship building, which makes Jessica van Schalkwyk: Mm. Yeah. Lavenia: your life easier when you coordinate multi-stakeholders. Multi-stakeholders from the police to the Department of Social Development, to Labour, to NGO, who have come from all different walks of life, you know, so it's yeah. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. And if you had to choose, would you rather have an excellent plan with weak relationships or an average plan with very strong relationships? Lavenia: No, they have an average plan with strong relationships. You know, I I love your your naming. We have a plan, don't we? Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: I've never seen anyone run with a plan when they respond. It's never happened. And and Jessica van Schalkwyk: Exactly. Lavenia: my advice is while you were drawing up that plan, that's when you're learning. and Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: knowing and building the relationships while you're building that plan. And Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: while you while you're building that plan, you're establishing those connections. So nobody should be running with a plan. You should know the plan and you should know the people that are involved in that plan. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: So I I think average plan with great relationships will work better than an excellent Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: document that probably nobody's gonna look at when when the pawpaw hits the fan. You Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: and if I come back to George, if I think of George local municipality, there's a district in between Garden Route district. Their plan probably read something like, You gotta follow protocol and contact the district, and the district will contact the province. That never happened. The local Jessica van Schalkwyk: Mm. Yeah. Lavenia: municipality contacted us directly because of the relationship and because the Fire Chief knows Colin and knows what Colin can do in that situation immediately and quickly. And it's Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: not saying that Garden Route couldn't do their job. It's not at all. You know, it's Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: just about I know this guy is a firefighter and he's a search and rescue and he's gonna be able to pull lots of strings to get lots of people on site quickly. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: yeah, I'd rather have a average plane. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah, no, I I agree because I think how many of those two hundred to four hundred page documents do we have that's and they are so pretty and they are all well formatted and it's you know you've got it numbered perfectly and the spacing is accurate and I think my gosh, if something actually Lavenia: No, so Jessica van Schalkwyk: happens, who's gonna read this? Lavenia: So the funny thing is, is you come back to we have a plan, don't we? I I, you know, often help municipalities to draw up a plan. And often municipalities are very scared. Like they think it's this big thing that they've got to do. And I'm saying, but the information is there in your space. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Yeah. Lavenia: We're just compiling it and packaging it and making sure that you're following a process. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: You you talk about the formatting is correct and everything. I went to a municipality that's inland and had coastal erosion as a definition. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: So you're going surely you've copied pasted this So how how how did they get there? And it's because a lot of Jessica van Schalkwyk: Ha ha ha. Lavenia: municipalities are using plans as a performance Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: target or a indicator, Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. No, it it's yeah, it is one of those things that you you can't you can't not have a plan, but the plan needs to be built around what actually happens. What does your team actually have on hand? Resources, personal, finance, and then how do you carry this out day to day? and y you said something about creating the plans with with the people that are are are going to be affected. And a a big part of that I I think is doing those tabletop exercises. And I I'd love your perspective on this is whether or not we make tabletop exercises too tidy and if tabletop exercises are actually useful. Lavenia: I I think tabletop exercises are super useful. And it's also something that I got a lot of exposure in when Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: doing UNDAC. So with UNDAC you you are supposed to go on a refresher course every two years. And they put you in the most awkward, uncomfortable position in a simulation, they call it simulations, exercises. where they will drop you like in a tent. Understand? And you've got to now and then you've got a couple of flip charts and some stationary and you've got to make your tent look like a center. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Okay. Lavenia: where you've got to use portable loos and people got to take turns showering and those kind of things that you you need to consider when you're on site, you know, if you need to respond. So I think The problem with exercises is they cost money and they they take a lot of time. And I know in the Western Cape they have big wildfire exercises. I think one was just recently done. And they're pretty realistic. but what about floods? What about other hazards? You know? And I Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: I think it's more about We're so busy creating documents we we forget about actual exercising those documents and Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: running those simulations. So if I think in my previous experience, like Koeberg Nuclear Power Station, exercised yearly, great, every year. But should something really happen? It wouldn't be me in their centre. It would probably be Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: the head of centre in that center. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: So they try and make it as realistic as possible, but because of time constraints and senior managers and municipal municipal managers and politicians being pulled in so many different directions, it's unfortunate Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: that not everybody is participating that needs to post participate. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: So if you if you look at the George incident, we had the Premier there, we had our ministers there, we had high delegation, high senior officials there. But you don't necessarily see them when we're running a tabletop simulation. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: so I think it's important that they need to get pulled in, and we have we have, you know, tried in the Western Cape. And I would just require more. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: also the role playing with with UNDAC you will get trained for two days and then all of a sudden you're running an exercise. So and the exercise starts from the minute you get to the airport. So the airport is a makeshift room with an airport official that gives you a hard time about your visa or your passport. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: So every every single thing is role played because they have the Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: resources and they have the money and the time to do it. So Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: it it would be great if we could get to that kind of, you know, level of exercising. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Yeah. Where you're introducing the actual uncertainty and those kind of red Lavenia: The curve balls. Jessica van Schalkwyk: yeah, the red herrings that you throw in that it it helps you that you might get to the end of the exercise and you failed the exercise, but you know, okay, what what do we then do if this actually plays out? Lavenia: Yeah, and and people need to understand exercise is a time to learn. and it's not not time to point fingers, but we're learning from each other. And at the Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: same time, you're actually learning w where your strengths are. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Mm. Lavenia: so I mean I've admitted to you that I'm not a academic type of person. So if I during during activation, we need someone to write a strategy. Don't come to Lavenia. Go to Jess. You you you know? because Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: Lavinia's gonna take too long to write that strategy. Go to someone that's that's stronger in that in that area. Yeah. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Yeah. I I think it's it raises an another question which is it's slightly different point but very much linked to what you're talking about around when when we're developing these plans or we are in a response whatever it is and we talk about doing it in consultation, is it enough for us to just mention those people? So like you were talking about with George and saying, you had the ministers and you had the Premier there. Is it enough for us to just mention that those people need to be there in the plan? Or Should we be forcing the issue more and saying at some point, we know you're busy, but at some point you need to be part of this exercise because, in the moment you might be the person who's now delegated strategy and you go, no, thanks, I can't do that, or it's gonna take me too long. But you the person whose name is there, it's written down, it's black and white. Should we not be creating those things in more of a consultative environment? I know it's there's challenges around it, but where is the happy medium with it? Lavenia: No, definitely. There there has to be intense consultation. And the consultation will will only benefit you as the author Jessica van Schalkwyk: Cool. Lavenia: of the document and will only benefit the community when you do respond. I think a lot of the first responders, or I know a lot of the first responders, know their job. And we know that they know their job. We're not gonna tell them how to do their job, but Do they know how they fit into the bigger picture? And a lot of times we don't want to consult because we are rushed to develop a document, unfortunately. But if you go through a a longer process, the outcome is so much more to your advantage. So Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: instead of taking three months because we need a plan, quick, quick, quick, because somebody is asking for a plan. Rather say no, I'm gonna take a year to develop this plan. And when I develop it, I'm gonna be consulting with everybody in my space. So if I'm coming from the municipality and I'm developing a plan, I need to know what provincial role players are in my space. I need to Jessica van Schalkwyk: Mm. Lavenia: know what national role players. I mean, Jessica van Schalkwyk: Okay. Lavenia: there's nothing wrong with saying like Guys, can we you can we just come together and have a discussion regarding this? Jessica van Schalkwyk: Mm-hmm. Lavenia: and instead of worrying about our egos, because at the end of the day, through the consultation, you all also gonna learn what you are lacking in your organization. So Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: now I I think we we really need to go back and Take our time and not just Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: try rush to tick a box. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: Definitely. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah, and you mentioned egos there, but how much do personalities, egos, or unclear authority contribute to contribute to chaos when you're responding? Lavenia: Sjoe. we I I was lucky to work in a center that had, I want to say, quite a cool culture. in terms, and my head of center said to me years ago, rather ask rather apologize than ask for permission. And I've Jessica van Schalkwyk: Ha ha ha. Lavenia: I've taken that through the years and I've made decisions without him. Sometimes I got big hidings, but Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: You you need to create that culture where people leave their egos at the door. And I I think the only way you're gonna create that culture is for people to trust each other, to be transparent. No one's trying to, you know, I wanna say stick a knife in your back. and Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: if if I think of our political support that we get is also very important, in in the province as a whole. so Egos no, they don't work, they don't work in coordination. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: definitely they don't. And if what I like to see is also the during peacetime, your boss or your manager may take a certain type of leadership style. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Mm. Lavenia: But when you activate it to respond, that leadership style will change. And disaster managers need to adapt and be flexible for that. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: And and Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: you know, and being flexible with whatever leader, whatever incident commander Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: is put in place. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: because the leadership style will definitely change. And it has to change. There's no time for Jessica van Schalkwyk: Mm. Yeah. Lavenia: being diplomatic and being all democratic and being consultative. There's there's no time for Jessica van Schalkwyk: Item, yeah. Lavenia: that when you're responding. Jessica van Schalkwyk: No, someone needs to take the lead and your team needs to then follow suit and say we back you and we're here to support Lavenia: Yes. Jessica van Schalkwyk: you and yeah, follow you into the collapsed building, quite literally, some of the time. Lavenia: Yeah, definitely. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. And Lavenia, when when we no, let me ask a different question. If someone is listening to this today and they they're working in a municipality organization emergency team what in your opinion should they be doing now before that next incident to strengthen relationships that The next response will likely depend on. Lavenia: Just meet the person next door to you. you know sometimes we we are we are so protocol driven and I've seen that in some of the provinces and just go knock on your neighbor's door and say hi. and also what's important is your advisory forum. how are you driving your advisory forum? And do we really need a structured agenda? No, we don't. Why Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: can't why can't we just call an in-person advisory and say, surprise, we're running our exercise today? What what stops you from Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: doing something like that? when there are new disaster managers in a municipal space. Nothing stops him from reaching out to the local policeman. And I want to emphasize that you've got to reach out to those other role players, otherwise, they're never going to get to know who you are. And when you respond, they're going think, who are you trying to take over the scene? Because that's the impression they're going to get, because they don't know who you are, and they don't know what you stand for. So For me it's about really getting to know your role players and it doesn't have to be like a a super formal process. You can just pick up the phone and say, Hey, I believe you have an EMS hub here, you know, an ambulance center in my area. Do you mind I'm coming around for a chat and a cup of coffee? It Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: it doesn't have to be too formal because I think that also puts people at ease and it makes them very defensive and it Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Yeah. Lavenia: makes them feel like the disaster manager is now coming to see if they're doing their job right. and it's not it's not so complicated. I mean we deal with coordination and disasters every day of our lives. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Mm. Lavenia: And and I like to use the example when your geezer bursts Are we not coordinating that incident? Are we not phoning the plumber and phoning the insurance guy and shouting at your husband to bring the mop or whatever? Because it's gotta be somebody's fault, right? and if it doesn't get mopped up properly, obviously you've got go for some sort of training. but are you are you are you not doing that when when you arrange your wedding, do you not coordinate all those activities? So it's I always like to use that kind of example of this is not rocket science, guys. It's it's not scary. It's something we do every day. And I think the municipalities mustn't get bogged down by legislation and meeting targets and performance indicators. They must just focus on The people around them. Yeah. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. No, I I agree. I always say disaster management is not difficult. It is incredibly logical. If you just think about it logically, there is always Lavenia: Yes. Jessica van Schalkwyk: there's a pattern that follows. Doesn't matter if it's a fire, if it's a flood, whatever it is, there's a pattern that you just need to learn Lavenia: Yes. Jessica van Schalkwyk: and follow that and adapt it to the scenario. And have the right role players for that particular incident doing their jobs. Yeah. Lavenia: No, I totally agree. Completely agree. Look, obviously with Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: your other side of response, you know, your risk assessments and those kind of things are more scientific and and Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Lavenia: you know, more academic and that but that you need as as a basis to build. You Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: know, that's your starting point. And while you're Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: doing that, you're also gonna build relationships, hopefully. Yeah. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you need that information. And I think that's why I I really enjoyed working in the the risk reduction unit because doing the risk and vulnerability assessments, you're so connected to all the different role players before anything has happened and having that context Lavenia: Yes. Jessica van Schalkwyk: and the understanding of okay, I can now see all the hazards in front of me that could possibly happen. with an asterisk on it. Of course, there are the outliers who completely catch us off guard. but then using that information as as the base and saying, yes, I remember I spoke to Jaco about this and I spoke to whoever about Lavenia: Yeah. Jessica van Schalkwyk: that. And that makes such a difference then when we do have to activate that you pull up the risk assessment and you say, these were the stakeholders that were involved. Great. Bring them into the room. And it it it makes such a difference to have that that more technical piece of research done, but then you know, okay, slotted into how we carry these things out. And it it then actually just ticks so nicely. Lavenia: No, definitely. You there was a guy. There was a guy. There's always a guy. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Ha ha Lavenia: The there's a guy at Stellenbosch, he's an engineer that Professor Wall. Coincidentally, his name is Professor Wall. I've I've the his first name is now. I've it's left my fog brain. He Jessica van Schalkwyk: Okay. Lavenia: He was one of the first people that we called on, a private individual working at Stellenbosch University, because he helped the search and rescue guys to check the structural integrity of when they were searching and rescuing. So and and it comes back to you saying, this is a person that's more risk reduction, more risk assessment, kind of vibe, but yet he was used in a response nature. And it came back to the relationship that Colin had with him, that knew him, that he was willing to come and help. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Knew him and trusted him. Yeah. Lavenia: Yes, yes. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah, it's amazing. Lavenia I think I want to just give you the floor to share any final pieces that are on your heart, on your mind around this topic. Obviously, we use George as kind of the case study here, but talking about coordination, plans, relationship, is there anything else you want to share on this topic that you think people need to know? Lavenia: I think also, Jess, the ability to recognize everyone around you, that it's not about ranks and you know the the person that's probably getting paid a l the least in your organization has probably got the best idea because they're at the core of the issue. So if I come back to the the twenty ten World Cup that we never had cleaners during the twenty ten, after hours, we were missing a link. And we acknowledge Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: that. What did we miss? We missed the person that was actually responsible for the cleaning staff. We forgot to pull them in because We didn't think of them. So I I wan I wanna just emphasize that that no matter what the rank or the amount of money they're earning, everybody has a role to play. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Mm. Lavenia: And also everybody has decisions. Allow your organization to have the culture where people are allowed to make Jessica van Schalkwyk: Yeah. Lavenia: decisions. So I was very lucky to always be backed by a strong senior management team. So Jessica van Schalkwyk: Mm. Lavenia: if I did something wrong, they got me. You know what mean? And that's where also you build trust. So, like I said, there were many a times that I got hidings for decisions, but it was okay. I learned from it. But there were also times where you rely on your junior staff or your middle managers or for their experience and not their rank. So allow them to make those decisions and create that culture where people are open and transparent and you're not leave those egos behind. I just wanted to emphasize that. Jessica van Schalkwyk: Thank you. I think that is a perfect note to end this off on. So thank you for the time and Lavenia: Yeah. Jessica van Schalkwyk: yeah, for for sharing because there are a lot of brand new disaster managers that can learn from you, but also some more seasoned ones who I think still need to learn these lessons.