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360: Giftedness and Identity: What We Get Wrong About Smart Kids, with Mark Talaga · Beautifully Complex

0:01
Speaker 1: But it's more of their own recognition that I know
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Speaker 1: I have something within me that's big, and I want
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Speaker 1: to do something with it, and I feel like I
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Speaker 1: could be great, but I don't know the way, I
0:12
Speaker 1: don't know the path, and it gets so overwhelming that
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Speaker 1: I just tend to shut down or I want to
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Speaker 1: dismiss the idea that I have a level of intelligence
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Speaker 1: or have giftedness in me, and that's always hard for
0:22
Speaker 1: these kids.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
0:28
Speaker 2: means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
0:32
Speaker 2: Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
0:36
Speaker 2: this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
0:39
Speaker 2: to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
0:45
Speaker 2: if you want more support, join our free community at
0:48
Speaker 2: hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back to Beautifully Complex, everyonean.
0:58
Speaker 2: I'm really excited to have Marked Loga here with me
1:00
Speaker 2: today to talk about giftedness and identity. I think this
1:07
Speaker 2: is such an important topic because so many gifted individuals
1:11
Speaker 2: struggle with how that shapes their identity, what does it
1:15
Speaker 2: mean for them? And especially our two e kids who
1:19
Speaker 2: have some hurdles and roadblocks sometimes to achieving in that way, Mark,
1:26
Speaker 2: will you start by letting everybody know who you are
1:29
Speaker 2: and what you do and then we'll jump into it absolutely.
1:32
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, and yeah, I am the director
1:36
Speaker 1: and owner of the Center for Identity Potential. We're in
1:39
Speaker 1: the Metro Detroit area. We have an office in Chicago
1:42
Speaker 1: as well, and really our main expertise is working with
1:47
Speaker 1: gifted neurodiversion, very asynchronous, you know, complicated kids that maybe
1:53
Speaker 1: don't tend to react as well to maybe normative therapies,
1:57
Speaker 1: and so you know, our goal is to really support
2:00
Speaker 1: families and the kids themselves and their development. And it's
2:04
Speaker 1: not about finding out what's wrong with them, but more
2:06
Speaker 1: about how we adjust for people don't like this word,
2:10
Speaker 1: but the deviants that they come into this world with
2:13
Speaker 1: so that they can get what they need in life.
2:16
Speaker 1: And as well as that, I am the host of
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Speaker 1: the Hopelessly Gifted podcast where I talk about a lot
2:22
Speaker 1: of the work that we do and just helping parents
2:24
Speaker 1: understand on a more granular level, you know what this
2:28
Speaker 1: giftedness thing is all about.
2:30
Speaker 2: I think as a parent, we go yay my kids gifted,
2:33
Speaker 2: they're smart. Hooray. This is a great thing, right, And
2:36
Speaker 2: we don't think about all the other things that come
2:39
Speaker 2: with that, the emotions, the identity, the sometimes struggle in
2:44
Speaker 2: school to live up to Oh, that expectation that the
2:48
Speaker 2: word gifted automatically creates. I think often we think high
2:54
Speaker 2: achievement that they have to equal each other. If a
2:57
Speaker 2: kid has a gifted label, they must be a high achiever.
3:01
Speaker 2: They have the potential to be a high achiever. How
3:04
Speaker 2: would you define giftedness? Because I know that isn't correct, RIGHTT.
3:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, you nailed it. So, yeah, I don't like the word.
3:11
Speaker 1: It's not a perfect word. But no matter what word
3:13
Speaker 1: we ended up using for these kids, it'd probably be misused.
3:16
Speaker 1: So you know, the way we understand giftedness at the
3:19
Speaker 1: center is it's really just typical human development in some
3:23
Speaker 1: level of extreme So it's not necessarily always related to
3:27
Speaker 1: intelligence on some level. You can be gifted athletically or physically.
3:31
Speaker 1: You can be gifted artistically. You can be gifted in
3:34
Speaker 1: the sense of moral justice and your sense of right
3:37
Speaker 1: and wrong. But if it's in some level of extreme meaning,
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Speaker 1: it's just outside the norm. It is well beyond a
3:44
Speaker 1: child of that age in the normative. Then yeah, that's
3:47
Speaker 1: what I would consider giftedness. The flip side really is
3:51
Speaker 1: that when you have these extremes on a person's developmental profile,
3:55
Speaker 1: you tend to have other areas that are maybe more
3:58
Speaker 1: in the norm or even delayed, and so you have
4:01
Speaker 1: these gaps all over how a person, you know, develops,
4:06
Speaker 1: and we call that asynchronous development, and that's really what
4:09
Speaker 1: we're dealing with when we're dealing with with giftedness typically
4:12
Speaker 1: mm hmm. Yeah.
4:14
Speaker 2: And when we add in then ADHD or autism are
4:18
Speaker 2: learning disabilities, right, then we create this very asynchronous profile,
4:24
Speaker 2: you know, kind of all over the map. Like my
4:27
Speaker 2: own neurodiversion kid, Like, you know, verbal fluency was off
4:31
Speaker 2: the chart, but he has dysgraphia, so written expression was
4:36
Speaker 2: very very low, very challenging, and that created a lot
4:40
Speaker 2: of misunderstanding and the adults in his world, especially at school,
4:45
Speaker 2: And I'm wondering, like, what should parents do to try
4:48
Speaker 2: to really understand where their kid is in a lot
4:51
Speaker 2: of different areas. Wouldn't that be beneficial then to also
4:55
Speaker 2: address the giftedness, but in a way that I think
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Speaker 2: honors where the kid is in all areas not just
5:02
Speaker 2: in that one area.
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Speaker 1: Right, And so you're looking at both the strengths that
5:06
Speaker 1: the kid has naturally and then what we like to
5:09
Speaker 1: call it our work their vulnerabilities areas where they're particularly
5:13
Speaker 1: vulnerable around performance, achievement, all this kind of stuff, you know.
5:16
Speaker 1: But the issue is if you root it in development,
5:19
Speaker 1: that means that almost any skill that a child that
5:23
Speaker 1: is gifted struggles with can become better, and in some cases,
5:27
Speaker 1: across the life span of a child's life, it becomes
5:30
Speaker 1: their greatest strength. The thing that they, you know, kind
5:33
Speaker 1: of suck at the most actually may be where they
5:36
Speaker 1: have an enormous amount of potential. But if it's not scaffolded, right,
5:40
Speaker 1: if it's not supported in a way that's in line
5:43
Speaker 1: with how that kid learns and integrates it, it can
5:47
Speaker 1: be one of those things where the kid, you know,
5:49
Speaker 1: gets the message of, oh, well, you're never going to
5:51
Speaker 1: be a writer because writing such a struggle for you,
5:53
Speaker 1: when in reality they might be an excellent writer, but
5:56
Speaker 1: what it takes for them to produce is so much
5:59
Speaker 1: more complicated that the kid's identity is like, well, that's
6:03
Speaker 1: not me when I like to challenge it. So I
6:06
Speaker 1: like to tell parents, I'm like, look at it more
6:08
Speaker 1: as if it really bothers them that they're not good
6:11
Speaker 1: at something that typically is a sign that they have
6:14
Speaker 1: a lot of potential in it, and it means more important.
6:17
Speaker 1: It's more important to scaffold at that point.
6:20
Speaker 2: Support growth absolutely, to give them opportunities to grow in
6:24
Speaker 2: those areas if they're interested in that. Yeah, and it
6:28
Speaker 2: does change as they get older too, you know, I
6:31
Speaker 2: think so many things are different now with my kid
6:34
Speaker 2: as a young adult. And you know, writing was so
6:36
Speaker 2: hard for him for a long time, but then he
6:38
Speaker 2: learned to really love creative writing and actually choose to
6:42
Speaker 2: do it there you go sometimes when he was supposed
6:44
Speaker 2: to be doing math or other things in class. But
6:46
Speaker 2: you know, like it did change for him over time.
6:50
Speaker 2: And so we don't want to hold our kids back.
6:51
Speaker 2: We don't want to try to define those things for them, right,
6:57
Speaker 2: How do we help them though? With this it's going
6:59
Speaker 2: to shape identity, Like naturally, when we tell somebody something
7:04
Speaker 2: about them or we label it, it's going to start
7:07
Speaker 2: to shape their identity. We want it to be a
7:09
Speaker 2: positive thing. But I think sometimes it's a real struggle
7:12
Speaker 2: for kids who are gifted because they feel so out
7:15
Speaker 2: of sync.
7:16
Speaker 1: Right, And so the trick is you're trying, you know,
7:21
Speaker 1: lell me back up a little bit. When we talk
7:23
Speaker 1: about identities in my work, you know, we have multiple,
7:27
Speaker 1: you know, dozens of identities that are expressions of who
7:30
Speaker 1: we are. Right. I have an identity as a father,
7:33
Speaker 1: I have an identity as a counselor, I have an
7:35
Speaker 1: identity as a podcast host. But each and every one
7:37
Speaker 1: of those identities has to fit me on a very
7:41
Speaker 1: unique individual level, so that I'm expressing who I really
7:44
Speaker 1: am through that work, right, So that the challenge is
7:48
Speaker 1: we tell kids, oh, you're so smart, Oh you're so
7:51
Speaker 1: good at this, which is, you know, that's fine, it's
7:53
Speaker 1: a nice thing to say. It's not like it's a
7:54
Speaker 1: bad thing. But the idea is if we don't have
7:58
Speaker 1: them understand that that identity of being smart is more complicated.
8:03
Speaker 1: You know, you're smart in a lot of context, but
8:05
Speaker 1: in other areas there's challenges based on how your you know,
8:09
Speaker 1: brain develops and you know what you might need and
8:13
Speaker 1: you know, relation to your processing in relation to your
8:15
Speaker 1: you know, understanding and experience of the world. So it's
8:18
Speaker 1: more like, you know, if we're creating an identity around learning.
8:21
Speaker 1: We don't want to say, oh, your gifted. We want
8:24
Speaker 1: to say, you know, you're a gifted learner that you
8:27
Speaker 1: know has ADHD and is struggling with some level of processing.
8:33
Speaker 1: But when you get what you need, you really start
8:35
Speaker 1: to get a sense of who you really are and
8:37
Speaker 1: what you're really capable of. So it's more about how
8:39
Speaker 1: you run towards how complicated it is, rather than try
8:42
Speaker 1: to simplify everything with like a label.
8:45
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I think often we label them as
8:51
Speaker 2: the smart one, right, and then without that other layer
8:56
Speaker 2: that you were just describing, that becomes this identity that
8:59
Speaker 2: they have to live up to. And I would imagine
9:01
Speaker 2: that then perfectionism becomes a thing possibly and can be
9:07
Speaker 2: a struggle. Do you want to talk a little bit
9:09
Speaker 2: about that.
9:10
Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely. I mean it's a really good point because
9:13
Speaker 1: if they have this expectation of themselves that's smart equals fast,
9:18
Speaker 1: or smart equals smart across all aspects of life, then yes,
9:23
Speaker 1: you start to have certain things pop up. So perfectionism
9:26
Speaker 1: for me, you know a lot of people try to
9:28
Speaker 1: treat it as like a personality trait, like, oh, you're
9:30
Speaker 1: just a perfectionist, and I honestly don't hate the word.
9:35
Speaker 1: Like there are certain people in life I want to
9:37
Speaker 1: be perfect, like the people building the planes that I'm
9:39
Speaker 1: flying on, Like, yeah, go ahead and be perfect, go
9:42
Speaker 1: ahead and don't make a mistake ever, yes, please, So,
9:46
Speaker 1: you know, and for some kids that's perfectly fine to
9:48
Speaker 1: have some level of you know, perfection desire. However, the
9:52
Speaker 1: way I typically tend to view it is more of
9:54
Speaker 1: a defense mechanism. They are relying on perfectionism or procrastination
10:00
Speaker 1: as a way to not face the reality of where
10:02
Speaker 1: their struggle might be on whatever it is they're facing.
10:05
Speaker 1: So for some people, they really struggle with how to
10:09
Speaker 1: initiate right. ADHD executive dysfunction makes really you know, starting
10:14
Speaker 1: something very difficult, and so they might rely, I know,
10:17
Speaker 1: I'm a procrastinator, rather than I'm struggling with the skill
10:21
Speaker 1: of initiation, or you know, maybe they actually don't know
10:24
Speaker 1: how to do what it is they're doing. They have
10:26
Speaker 1: a vision in their head, but they don't actually have
10:28
Speaker 1: a step by step process or framework to finish whatever
10:33
Speaker 1: it is, and so they say, well, I just want
10:34
Speaker 1: it to be perfect, rather than I don't know how
10:38
Speaker 1: to actually get there. You know, I don't know the
10:41
Speaker 1: step by step, micro level of what I'm doing to
10:44
Speaker 1: get there, and so sometimes these perfectionism procrastination issues can
10:48
Speaker 1: come up for these kids.
10:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of striking me too. I think often
10:52
Speaker 2: there's anxiety with affectionism. Yeah, you know, I'm anxious to fail.
10:57
Speaker 2: I'm anxious to not live up to you. The ideas
11:00
Speaker 2: that people have of me, these standards that they think.
11:04
Speaker 2: You know, if I'm the smart one, then what would
11:06
Speaker 2: it mean? What would happen if I didn't do a
11:10
Speaker 2: really great job with something. There can be a lot
11:13
Speaker 2: of fear in that.
11:14
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, the other idea is that they can have
11:16
Speaker 1: fear and success. What if I do well, then what's
11:19
Speaker 1: expected of me? Now I have to go to another
11:21
Speaker 1: level of skill and development, and I have to manage
11:24
Speaker 1: more and I have to you know, what happens if
11:26
Speaker 1: I do start making friends? How do I do that? Right?
11:28
Speaker 1: So there's and so I like parents to first understand anxiety,
11:33
Speaker 1: for the most part, is really a sign that there's
11:36
Speaker 1: a lack of skill somewhere. Right. If we're less anxious
11:41
Speaker 1: when we know how to do something, now the people now,
11:44
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to dismiss psychiatric anxiety that
11:47
Speaker 1: is just either you know, in our genetics or when
11:49
Speaker 1: it gets so bad. I'm not asking you to ignore
11:52
Speaker 1: it and say, well, get your skills better, kid. It's
11:55
Speaker 1: more like, you know, sometimes you have to bring the
11:57
Speaker 1: anxiety down in order to focus on the root issue.
11:59
Speaker 1: But it's typically I'm facing something I don't know how
12:03
Speaker 1: to manage, or I don't have the skill set or
12:05
Speaker 1: the framework for how to proceed. So even like how
12:08
Speaker 1: a child wants to manage everybody's expectations, but they don't
12:13
Speaker 1: know how to verbalize that. They don't know how to
12:15
Speaker 1: say how difficult it is for them to perform at
12:18
Speaker 1: a certain level, and so they just, you know, behaviorally
12:22
Speaker 1: start to shut down, or you know, for some people
12:25
Speaker 1: they overcompensate and burn the candle of both ends. But
12:28
Speaker 1: we want parents to be able to understand that anxiety
12:31
Speaker 1: in your kid is some level of struggle with something,
12:35
Speaker 1: and we want to be very curious about exploring everything
12:40
Speaker 1: in that kid's life about where they might be feeling
12:42
Speaker 1: like they're struggling to make something happen.
12:46
Speaker 2: Do you think if the kids struggle with the idea
12:50
Speaker 2: of living up to their potential. I think the adults
12:54
Speaker 2: often use that word when we shouldn't. I kind of
12:56
Speaker 2: hate it, to be honest, But do you think that
13:00
Speaker 2: they're internalizing that that they're you know, some of their
13:05
Speaker 2: identity is shaped by that fear.
13:09
Speaker 1: One thousand percent. And so you know, in our practice,
13:12
Speaker 1: we don't say you reach your potential, we say you
13:14
Speaker 1: activate it. And you activate potential when you're living in
13:19
Speaker 1: identities or you're expressing yourself through identities that fit. That's
13:22
Speaker 1: when you start to want to do more, or you
13:24
Speaker 1: feel motivated, or you feel like I want to take
13:27
Speaker 1: on another challenge, or I feel okay with myself. But
13:30
Speaker 1: a lot of times, you know, kids don't know, you know,
13:33
Speaker 1: they just ascribe what the normative identity is to them, like, well,
13:38
Speaker 1: that's what I'm supposed to be, or this is how
13:40
Speaker 1: social people are supposed to be, or you know, this
13:43
Speaker 1: how smart people are supposed to be, rather than finding
13:46
Speaker 1: what it really means for that kid. But yeah, parents
13:50
Speaker 1: will well I mean, I can't tell you how many
13:52
Speaker 1: times kids I'm in a session with them and they're like,
13:55
Speaker 1: I hate it when my parents tell me I'm smart
13:58
Speaker 1: or that they have a lot of potential because what
14:00
Speaker 1: they hear it as is a critique like I'm doing
14:03
Speaker 1: something wrong and they're saying they see it within me
14:06
Speaker 1: and that kid knows it. But what I try to
14:09
Speaker 1: do with that kid is to get them to own
14:11
Speaker 1: how much it bothers them. Keep it off of the parents. Right.
14:15
Speaker 1: They may be internalizing it from the parents, and that
14:18
Speaker 1: definitely happens, but it's more their own recognition that I
14:23
Speaker 1: know I have something within me that's big, and I
14:26
Speaker 1: want to do something with it, and I feel like
14:28
Speaker 1: I could be great, but I don't know the way,
14:30
Speaker 1: I don't know the path, and it gets so overwhelming
14:33
Speaker 1: that I just tend to shut down or I want
14:35
Speaker 1: to dismiss the idea that I have a level of
14:37
Speaker 1: intelligence or have giftedness in me. And that's always hard
14:40
Speaker 1: for these kids.
14:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And that is kind of the flip side too,
14:45
Speaker 2: of fearing that they're going to fail is disengaging not trying,
14:52
Speaker 2: and I think that happens a lot too, which I'm
14:55
Speaker 2: sure drives the adults in their lives crazy. It's like, well,
15:01
Speaker 2: I see this potential that I don't want to use
15:03
Speaker 2: that word, but you know, like that's how we think
15:06
Speaker 2: about it, that's how we're taught to think about it, yep.
15:08
Speaker 2: So what can we do to help kids who are like,
15:12
Speaker 2: that's too much pressure, right, that's too much work. Right,
15:16
Speaker 2: I'm going to do the opposite.
15:18
Speaker 1: So, you know, I like to rely on this old
15:20
Speaker 1: phrase and I don't remember the origin of it now,
15:22
Speaker 1: but it's, you know, the normative way of thinking about
15:24
Speaker 1: it is if they try harder, they'll do better, And
15:28
Speaker 1: it's really the opposite. If they do better, they'll try harder.
15:32
Speaker 1: So what that means is what we're dealing with. When
15:35
Speaker 1: you have a kid that's like avoidant, task avoidant around
15:39
Speaker 1: certain things. You want to start with your assumption of it.
15:42
Speaker 1: Maybe it's not that they won't, but maybe they can't.
15:45
Speaker 1: Maybe they actually, even as smart as they are, may
15:48
Speaker 1: really be struggling with some aspect of this, whether it's
15:51
Speaker 1: the emotional regulation piece of it or the actual skill
15:54
Speaker 1: sets involved, whatever it is, and you're wanting to find
15:59
Speaker 1: ways where you help them understand that it's harder for
16:03
Speaker 1: them than they realize that they actually it's not that
16:05
Speaker 1: they don't want to do something, it's that they're struggling
16:08
Speaker 1: without difficult it might be, and trying to just align
16:12
Speaker 1: with them first and foremost that you're starting to become
16:14
Speaker 1: aware because again, parents get caught in like just just
16:17
Speaker 1: do it right, like please, please, And it's hard for
16:22
Speaker 1: parents to regulate and say, Okay, I don't need to
16:25
Speaker 1: have expectation on this kid. I don't need to push
16:27
Speaker 1: them into anything. But what I am going to reflect
16:29
Speaker 1: is it might be a lot harder for them than
16:31
Speaker 1: I realize. And now a kid might dismiss that, so no,
16:34
Speaker 1: it's not that hard and be like, well, isn't that
16:36
Speaker 1: interesting Because as much as you said that's something you
16:40
Speaker 1: want in your life, it feels like your ability to
16:42
Speaker 1: get started or you know, initiate into it has been
16:46
Speaker 1: such a challenge and I'm starting to think that maybe
16:48
Speaker 1: it's harder than you think, even and trying to keep
16:51
Speaker 1: it on the child's understanding that, oh is that what's
16:53
Speaker 1: going on with me? Just to have them think about
16:55
Speaker 1: it a little differently. But it's a process. It's going
16:58
Speaker 1: to be a slow and steady process of evaluating what
17:01
Speaker 1: are the real challenges here, Where does support need to
17:04
Speaker 1: be there, what does the child need to understand about themselves?
17:09
Speaker 1: And for a parent, how can I relate to it?
17:12
Speaker 1: Because I guarantee you somewhere in your life you.
17:14
Speaker 2: Relate, yeah, tonally, Yeah, can you provide maybe some examples
17:34
Speaker 2: of some language that parents can use to talk about
17:40
Speaker 2: giftedness without reinforcing like a performance based identity, without talking
17:48
Speaker 2: about potential and reaching their potential? What other ways do
17:53
Speaker 2: we talk about it in a more really healthy way
17:56
Speaker 2: for our kids?
17:58
Speaker 1: So, you know, I always like to frame it, and
18:01
Speaker 1: you know, as asynchronous development. It's like, look, there are
18:05
Speaker 1: part of yous that have grown in an accelerated rate.
18:08
Speaker 1: They're a part of you that is, you know, just
18:10
Speaker 1: kind of in the norm, but compared to where you're
18:12
Speaker 1: at over here, it's a gap, and you know, so
18:16
Speaker 1: on and so forth. And it's explaining to them almost
18:19
Speaker 1: the neurology, the neurophysiology that can happen with being a
18:25
Speaker 1: gifted person. And you know, what I found is that
18:28
Speaker 1: most kids like to talk about it in that way.
18:32
Speaker 1: They realize that it's not psychological, it's not the way
18:35
Speaker 1: they're thinking about things. It's more about their own gifted
18:39
Speaker 1: nature and helping them understand that nothing is permanent. You
18:44
Speaker 1: are not delta hand and that's it for the rest
18:46
Speaker 1: of your life. Are there things you want to work on?
18:49
Speaker 1: Then you might need more support than you're willing to
18:50
Speaker 1: take on. And unfortunately, or fortunately, a lot of these
18:54
Speaker 1: gifted kids have a little bit of an ego on them, right,
18:57
Speaker 1: you know, and maybe that comes from outside sources, but
18:59
Speaker 1: a lot of it's just, you know, they got a
19:00
Speaker 1: little ego. And I don't mind a little bit of ego.
19:02
Speaker 1: That'll take you far in life. But when it gets
19:04
Speaker 1: so big that they won't accept help or it shouldn't
19:08
Speaker 1: be that way, or I don't need to do things differently,
19:11
Speaker 1: I'm just fine without facing the reality of what they're
19:13
Speaker 1: really up against. You might need to, yeah, enlist a
19:17
Speaker 1: little bit of extra help, find somebody like you or
19:19
Speaker 1: like me that can help navigate and you know, be
19:23
Speaker 1: another person in that kid's life that helps them see
19:28
Speaker 1: you know what the parents are already picking up on,
19:30
Speaker 1: but hearing it from another source sometimes that's helpful. But
19:33
Speaker 1: it's okay. What I guess what I'm trying to say
19:35
Speaker 1: is it's okay to really talk about it, maybe a
19:38
Speaker 1: more complicated level than you think, don't maybe it down
19:41
Speaker 1: for these kids, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Like you know
19:44
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like they kind of are like, like
19:46
Speaker 1: a lot of them are, like I don't like that.
19:47
Speaker 1: So it's almost like be direct. And again, if you're
19:50
Speaker 1: like I don't know what a synchronous development means, I
19:52
Speaker 1: don't even understand it, then yeah, you might have a
19:54
Speaker 1: little research to do as a parent of how do
19:57
Speaker 1: I really understand that, you know, because all it's all
20:00
Speaker 1: human behavior, we're not like human beings and then gifted
20:03
Speaker 1: kids like it's all humanity. Yeah, and so we're just
20:07
Speaker 1: trying to help them understand that what it looks like
20:09
Speaker 1: when humanity happens in extremes, that it can come across
20:12
Speaker 1: as quirky or weird or you feel like an alien
20:15
Speaker 1: or whatever it is.
20:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, and every human is a synchronous in some way.
20:19
Speaker 1: Right, nailed it, nailed it.
20:21
Speaker 2: There's no perfection, so there's no perfectly aligned person. We
20:27
Speaker 2: all have strengths and weaknesses, we all have differences, and
20:31
Speaker 2: I think that can help too. But yeah, like just
20:34
Speaker 2: backing off of the pressure. We talk so much here
20:37
Speaker 2: on this podcast about pressure and what it does to
20:40
Speaker 2: nervous systems. Yeah, and kids and how society tells us
20:44
Speaker 2: that that's what we should do as an adult to
20:46
Speaker 2: get a kid to be motivated and do the things
20:48
Speaker 2: we want them to do. And yet we're actually making
20:51
Speaker 2: it harder for them to do the things we want
20:53
Speaker 2: them to do. And so there's so much pressure too
20:57
Speaker 2: though in this idea that you're gifted, we tend too,
21:01
Speaker 2: you know, add to that amplify that pressure, and that
21:06
Speaker 2: can't be helpful. It just can't be helpful.
21:09
Speaker 1: It's not. And the thing is, it's a bit of
21:11
Speaker 1: a trap. And you know, I don't take the kids.
21:13
Speaker 1: The kids kind of weirdly reinforce the parents wanting to
21:18
Speaker 1: go a little behavioral too quickly because they again they're
21:21
Speaker 1: trying to make it seem like, no, it's just the
21:24
Speaker 1: way you're asking me, or it's just this way. And
21:26
Speaker 1: so it's a dynamic thing. It's not all like, you know,
21:29
Speaker 1: it's all the parents doing it wrong, or it's all
21:30
Speaker 1: the you know, the kids, just this poor little kid,
21:32
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like, it's it's a dynamic
21:34
Speaker 1: issue and so you have to look at how that
21:36
Speaker 1: dynamic plays out and be a little more savvy when
21:39
Speaker 1: the child trust to deflect away from the real core
21:43
Speaker 1: challenge and struggle, and how you as a parent bring
21:45
Speaker 1: it back to it. But it's I like what you said,
21:48
Speaker 1: when you're like we all have asyncrony, which is one
21:51
Speaker 1: hundred percent correct. Everybody has gaps in their profile. It's
21:55
Speaker 1: just a matter of the degree of it and how
21:57
Speaker 1: intense it can get. Yeah, Like, one of the examples
21:59
Speaker 1: I try to share with parents is I had a
22:01
Speaker 1: kid that we worked with. This was years and years ago,
22:03
Speaker 1: who was masterful at physics. I mean, he'd visited every
22:09
Speaker 1: museum in the country, loved physics, was a whiz at it.
22:13
Speaker 1: He could not tell you his home address. And he
22:15
Speaker 1: was a freshman in high school. Right, That's how a
22:18
Speaker 1: synchrony can look. And so the school's like, well, well,
22:21
Speaker 1: this kid's not that smart. He's kind of you know,
22:23
Speaker 1: we shouldn't be accelerating him. And I'm like, well, it's both.
22:26
Speaker 1: He needs crazy amounts of support in areas like you know,
22:30
Speaker 1: writing and remembering and just you know, and also like
22:33
Speaker 1: maybe a little grace where it's like, all right, he
22:35
Speaker 1: said he forgot how to spell his name. Maybe we
22:37
Speaker 1: just you know, who cares, right, Like, is that really
22:40
Speaker 1: there or is it we just trying to highlight that.
22:42
Speaker 1: And at the same time, where do we challenge them
22:45
Speaker 1: appropriately and help them excel and it because it's so
22:49
Speaker 1: complicated schools aren't built for it, nobody's trained in it,
22:54
Speaker 1: and falls on the parents to have to advocate. And
22:56
Speaker 1: it's it's tough. So for all you you know, gifted
22:59
Speaker 1: parents there, I see you. It's hard. It's hard. I've
23:03
Speaker 1: lived it.
23:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have right. Our school system said we cannot
23:07
Speaker 2: support both. You have to choose a track, right, I
23:10
Speaker 2: choose giftedness or you choose special ed support. But you
23:14
Speaker 2: can't have both, ye, And I'm like, but the law
23:17
Speaker 2: says they're not built for it, right. And here in
23:22
Speaker 2: my area, the common thing around giftedness is more volume
23:30
Speaker 2: of work r which my kid could not keep up with.
23:34
Speaker 2: And the worst years or the worst classes were the
23:38
Speaker 2: gifted ones for him because there was so much more pressure,
23:41
Speaker 2: there was so much more of a volume than he
23:44
Speaker 2: just didn't have the processings be to keep up with.
23:46
Speaker 2: And so we had to choose the other track, and
23:48
Speaker 2: his giftedness was not nurtured in school. He didn't have
23:53
Speaker 2: a lot of those challenges like problem solving, creativity and
23:57
Speaker 2: things that he really loved. And yes, there's the law,
24:01
Speaker 2: and yes, our kids have rights, but also we live
24:05
Speaker 2: in an imperfect world and what do we do with it?
24:09
Speaker 2: And I coach so many parents who say, well, my
24:12
Speaker 2: kid is gifted and they deserve to have that nurtured
24:17
Speaker 2: as well, and they do, but also like, what's going
24:21
Speaker 2: to work for your kid? And in our reality here,
24:24
Speaker 2: the way giftedness is treated here, it was not going
24:27
Speaker 2: to work for my kid, and that's our choice. Like,
24:31
Speaker 2: that's disappointing, that's crushing.
24:34
Speaker 1: It's deflating. And yes, it puts a kid in a
24:37
Speaker 1: state of identity panic of like what does this mean
24:39
Speaker 1: about me? And it is hard to keep that child
24:42
Speaker 1: grounded in the idea of remember, you know, son or daughter,
24:47
Speaker 1: the world is not built for you. The world is
24:49
Speaker 1: built for the norm. It's built for the average, and
24:52
Speaker 1: there's reasons for that. It makes sense on some level
24:54
Speaker 1: why it's built that way. But it means that this
24:58
Speaker 1: kind of stuff can happen. And what I don't want
25:02
Speaker 1: you to do is take it away as something wrong
25:04
Speaker 1: with you. It's more that there is not a fit happening.
25:09
Speaker 1: And what we're going to work on together as a
25:10
Speaker 1: family is finding that fit where we try a little
25:14
Speaker 1: bit better every time to create a fit, and that
25:16
Speaker 1: fit may change from year to year to year, because again,
25:20
Speaker 1: these issues are developmental in nature, they will shift, they
25:23
Speaker 1: will change, you will have a developmental leap that happens,
25:28
Speaker 1: you know, from time to time, as well as having
25:30
Speaker 1: the gaps and the struggles. So it's a heavy weight
25:34
Speaker 1: to bear, and you know, my passion in life is
25:37
Speaker 1: to train these schools and to help them understand. You know,
25:41
Speaker 1: when you embrace the complexity, not only does it help
25:44
Speaker 1: that kid and others like them, but it also bolsters
25:48
Speaker 1: your skill set so that when you bring it back
25:50
Speaker 1: into the normative environment, you're even better there. It lifts
25:53
Speaker 1: all boats. It's just a matter of breaking out of
25:57
Speaker 1: the system that is in place that maybe needs to
26:00
Speaker 1: be restructured. Yeah.
26:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there are ways as parents to foster that
26:06
Speaker 2: gifted interest. You know, we found science camps, and the
26:11
Speaker 2: local university here did a weekend class thing for gifted
26:16
Speaker 2: kids for years. We would do that twice a year,
26:20
Speaker 2: and so there are ways. But then, you know, it's
26:24
Speaker 2: disappointing that they can't get exactly what they need in
26:27
Speaker 2: all aspects. As complex as they are, they still deserve that.
26:31
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's so many things that we can do.
26:33
Speaker 2: But I'm really glad that we were able to talk
26:36
Speaker 2: about helping them shape the right identity around giftedness to
26:42
Speaker 2: not feel like that it's just this really high bar
26:45
Speaker 2: that they have to meet and there's this potential that
26:48
Speaker 2: comes with it that they have to meet, right, and
26:51
Speaker 2: all these ideas of perfectionism. So I love busting some
26:55
Speaker 2: of those myths and helping parents to really nurture what
26:59
Speaker 2: they're kids actually need from them.
27:02
Speaker 1: Oh one d P.
27:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, Mark, tell everybody where they can find you online
27:05
Speaker 2: so they can learn more about your work and what
27:08
Speaker 2: you're doing.
27:09
Speaker 1: Absolutely, if you're interested in our center and the kind
27:12
Speaker 1: of work we do there, you can visit us at
27:14
Speaker 1: Center for Identity Potential dot com. We meet with clients
27:19
Speaker 1: all over the country. We're able to do that because
27:21
Speaker 1: we don't take insurance, So just a little FI there.
27:24
Speaker 1: But the idea is we're there to support you in
27:27
Speaker 1: whatever way is helpful to you, and if we can't,
27:29
Speaker 1: we'll find somebody they can. And then you can listen
27:33
Speaker 1: to my podcast Hopelessly Gifted on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
27:39
Speaker 1: You can just search that up and you'll find that.
27:41
Speaker 1: But that's got a lot of great information and resources
27:44
Speaker 1: and does a little bit of a deeper dive into
27:46
Speaker 1: some of the issues that are pretty specific to gift.
27:49
Speaker 1: The kids love it, and.
27:50
Speaker 2: I'll link all of that up in the show notes
27:52
Speaker 2: at Parenting, ADHD and autism dot com. Thanks again, Mark
27:56
Speaker 2: for sharing some of your time and your wisdom and
27:58
Speaker 2: your passion for giftedness that shines through. And I really
28:01
Speaker 2: appreciate the work that you're doing.
28:03
Speaker 1: Oh it's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
28:05
Speaker 2: I'll see everybody next time. Take good care. I see you.
28:11
Speaker 2: You're doing hard and meaningful work and you don't have
28:14
Speaker 2: to do it alone. If you found this episode helpful,
28:17
Speaker 2: share it with someone who needs it and leave a
28:20
Speaker 2: quick review so others can find this support too. When
28:23
Speaker 2: you're ready for next steps, the Regulated Kids Project is
28:27
Speaker 2: here with the tools, coaching, and community to help you
28:31
Speaker 2: raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get more info at
28:35
Speaker 2: regulated kids dot com.