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REWIND: Hero, Bum, or Meh · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, and welcome to another exciting edition of Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: On today's episode, we'll be discussing whether they are a hero, bum, or ma.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: As usual, I'm joined by my uh trusty co-host.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Tim Hammond.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Alrighty.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: And uh here's my best Marlon Brando, Tim.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I could have been a contender.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: I could have been somebody instead of a bum.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Which one is that I am?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Fun fact: Marlon Brando has won two Academy Awards.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think super best actor.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: One of the few people have.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that was Marlon Brando from On the Waterfront, which uh won Best Motion Motion Picture and Best Actor in 1954.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody doesn't know that.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, what's what's the difference between being revered or reviled?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um we're just kind of gonna look at the different coaches, athletes, and owners of the uh Pittsburgh sports landscape, and um we'll see what their lasting legacy is, and of course, we'll be the final arbiter on that.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, once I say this, it can never change, and you know, it's like written in stone, like the hieroglyphs in ancient Egypt.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: So just be forever, right, Tim?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: Pretty much.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So um, so we'll start with uh one Frank Peter Angelo.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: He had uh 46 wins, 59 losses, and six ties in 141 games.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: He played for the Penguins.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: He had a goals against average of 4.12 and a save percentage of 8.72.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: He wasn't the greatest goaltender of all time.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: After 1994, he only played in the minor leagues.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um he did start with the penguins in 1988, so he played from the penguins from 88 to I think 92, 91, 92.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so obviously, why the reason for his hero ness in this town is he made a save on was that Peter Stasney in game six, I do believe.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: He was like, it was a bad play by I don't know, it was a turnover, and he went to give the Paul the puck back to is it Bob Ary or I forget who the defenseman is, and it went right to Peter Stasney.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Peter Stasney literally had like the whole net to shoot at, and when he shot it, he literally shot it in the Peter Angelo's glove, which he was like behind the net when he made the save.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it was pretty cool.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it launched the Penguins into their um Stanley Cup run that year, and they which ended in their first Stanley Cup.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: So he's become somewhat of a folk hero.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm giving a final status of uh hero, Tim.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: What do you what do you think?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: What say you?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great, great guy to start with for this theme, Steve, because no one will ever remember how much this town hated Frank Peterangelo before that play.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he was the guy that you never wanted to come in.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: If Tom Barrasser got hurt, oh oh god no, here comes Frank Peter Angelo, we're giving we're about to give up six goals, right?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: People couldn't stand Frank Peter Angelo, and then he makes that say, so he was a bum, and then he makes that save, and like you said, he's forever immortalized.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and and deservedly so, that was an amazing play, and like you said, it launched the playoff run that led to a Stanley Cup.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but such a great example of the thin line that separates people between hero status and bum status.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: So a great, great example to start with.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, um, the next guy up, we're sticking with penguin goaltenders for 200, Alex.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Louis Deming, if anybody remembers him.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'll start with his hero status.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he won a um triple overtime game against the Rangers in that series, and um he had the Penguins up three games to one on the brink of eliminating the New York Rangers and their Vesna winning goalie.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: Who's it?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: What's what's that guy's name?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: Igor Shisterkin.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, it just has a bunch of consonants in it, you know.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Center live joke.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so and then here's kind of more of the reason like he was a career minor leaguer.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: He'd spent most of his league the most of his career in the minors.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: He had done some time with I think Tampa and some other teams, but I mean he he really hasn't had like a terrible like NHL career.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: He really has barely been.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: So they're they're kind of down.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think um Tristan Jaria gotten hurt and Casey DeSmith had gotten hurt, so this is their third string goalie, so they are kind of down to the last of the last here.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: And um, like I said, he won that one game.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: They had them up three games to one, and it goes to a game sick after six after Crosby gets hurt in game five.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: And this is probably the biggest reason he's a goat.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: This shot by I think it's it's Kreider.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll play it for you right now.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_04: the bad jab for Kreider wines shoots to minute lost it.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_04: They score it hit off to Megan crossed the goal line with a minute 28 remaining.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_04: The Rangers take the lead.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that was a minute 28 left in third in the game.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: Was that game six?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: So the Penguins are on the brink.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Once again, the game was tied, but they could have definitely beaten the Rangers there.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: And um, what happened was like Kreider shoots this shot from like what would you say, five feet inside the blue line?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: And like it's not that hard of a save.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: It was a pretty easy save, and it bounces off of Deming's blocker and goes way up in the air and goes over his head for a goal.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: With in the worst, it's like there's only a minute 28, so the penguins don't really have any time to recover, and it forces a game seven, which Tristan Jari starts, but you could tell he was hurt and they end up losing the series.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know what to say.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm calling him a more of a meh, I'm not gonna go total bum on him because he probably played about as well as you could expect the minor league goalie to, and he almost beat the Penguins, but the Rangers, and I think the bigger reason the Penguins lost was probably Sidney Crosby got hurt.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: So let's say you, Mr.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Tim.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that makes sense.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, he was he was just a guy that got thrust into a situation that he had no business being in, and he he did, like you said, did as well as you could expect.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: He he almost had that hero status because of though of that game one, because yeah, he wasn't expected to play.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And didn't he eat like a huge meal or something in the middle of the game?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: He ate spicy pork and broccoli.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I imagine maybe he had to go to the bathroom halfway through Well, he wasn't expecting like the game was in overtime.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: It went up going to like two overtimes, and he just was like, Well, I'm not playing the night, I'm I'm hungry.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then the Smith gets hurt, and it's like, uh, dude, you have to go into the game.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, holding us.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, like, ooh, maybe I can eat in that gigantic spicy pork and broccoli meal.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: But then he won us the game.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, he he he actually came very close to a hero status, but you're right, he doesn't deserve a bum status.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's not fair.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I tried to be tried to be here like fair here.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um next up on the list is one James Connor.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll start with reasons for bum with him.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um he was hurt a lot, and he had some key drops and fumbles in big games.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: I remember he dropped a pass against the Jacksonville Jaguars that they ended up winning anyway, but I remember he was open again and Ben wouldn't throw him the ball.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um and people like he was hurt a lot, so people start.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: I remember like, oh, he's not an NFL running back, and da-da-da-da, this and that.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Just you know, a lot of complaints, he can't catch the ball, he you know, just a lot of complaints from people I would describe as Penn State fans.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um so the the reason for hero was he beat Cancer and a um had had a solid career of four seasons with the Steelers.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um he always he'll always be a hero to me.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: He he I mean he had a really good season just to prove all those uh Penn State fans wrong.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: He went to the Cardinals and um he had a really good season with them, not last year, but the year before.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: Last year he he kind of had some injuries again.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think he's having like I kind of I would say he's like a Yancey thig pen where he's like good every other year.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: So and that was even with Cliff Kingsbury as coach.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean he's gotta be pretty good, right?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: I I I think he's a hero.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: What what what do you think, Tim?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Are you joining the Penn State fans and calling them a bum?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, geez, I guess I can't now.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, no, I'm I love James Connor.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: He'll he'll always be fondly remembered by me for his days at Pitt.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And he was he was good for the Steelers.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: He he had injury problems.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's just the way it was.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: And he could he have been better had he not been injured all the time?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, he could have been.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's really the end of the story there.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And his story of of his triumph over the over having cancer when you're in college, and like, my goodness, I uh yeah, you he's a hero.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I just I I hate it when people, oh, he's not an NFL running back.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like, get the heck out of here.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's like this guy's an NFL running back, whatever.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: So moving on to somebody who we probably have all forgotten about, and maybe it's like denial, maybe we just don't like to talk about him too much.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Tim McKay.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Tim, do you remember Tim McIr?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: How could you forget Tim McIr?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: I was there for the 1990s AFC Championship game.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: You witnessed Tim McKayre in all his glory.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: So reason for hero in well, I this isn't really in Pittsburgh, but he won two Super Bowls with San Francisco's in the eight in San Francisco in the 80s.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then he went late Denver late in his career and got another one with Denver in '97.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess that's his general overall hero.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: But as for Pittsburgh, um the reason for bum, that uh that late touchdown covering Tony Mar Martin in the uh you know, the aforementioned uh 1994 uh championship game, um, not a good look for uh Tim McKayre.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: And he was pretty upset after the game, and you know, there's always shots of him kind of crumpled on the ground, like, oh, I lost us the game.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's that that that one hurt for sure, Tim.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I you know, looking back on that, it's it's we always need a scapegoat, right?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and the Steelers were winning barely that game in the fourth quarter.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was a third and long, and he was one-on-one with Tony Martin, and Tony Martin just beat him.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Tony Martin was a good receiver.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Tony Martin beats him on a 43-yard touchdown pass, and the Steelers still had a chance to come back and win that game, and their offense couldn't do it.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Their defense had also given up a big play, too.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Alfred Papuno, who was like the tight end, they left him wide open.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: That was how San Diego scored their first touchdown.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: The offense, you know, they they scored one touchdown in that game.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, there were pl there was plenty of blame to go around, but Tim McKay kind of became the scapegoat.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I agree he's a bum because that's how everybody sees him, but I I don't think it's entirely fair.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with you, Tim.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: He he's a bum.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think I saw he had the nickname of Tim Frequent Flyer Mackir because late in his career he like was free agent.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: He went a lot of different places.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: So and everybody forgets too, he actually had a decent season before all that.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and he would I think the reason they got him was because the year before that Rod Woodson got hurt, and they were like, okay, we need somebody in case Rod Woodson gets hurt.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, the reason they got him is because the the two cornerbacks, the the the the year before the cornerbacks were Rod Woodson and DJ Johnson.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And DJ Johnson left, didn't they?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And DJ Johnson left.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And they had drafted they had drafted Dion Figures.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: So Deion Figures and Rod Woodson were supposed to be the starting cornerbacks.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: McCarry was supposed to be like the nickelback figures, if I remember correctly, had some injuries.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: He had he had, I don't think that was before he got shot.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: But but that he was just supposed to be a he was a veteran.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, he played on all the San Francisco teams.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: He was a veteran guy that provided depth.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: He made a big interception in the playoff game the week before that against Cleveland.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Again, he was very solid.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: He it was one play.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: The best cornerbacks in football get burnt by receivers sometimes.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: It happens, right?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: It I just I have always thought it was unfair that his whole time in Pittsburgh was defined by that one moment.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, he took it very, very hard.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: He he was crumpled on the ground.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: They had to carry him off the field because he felt like he blew the whole season, which again, I I never thought was fair.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: And he did get the last laugh on Pittsburgh because he won a Super Bowl with Denver.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: So good for him.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: So yay, Tim McCarr, I guess.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: You're still a bum in my book.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the final word on it.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: So next for uh next on our list is uh Mr.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Steve Peterson, and we kind of referenced him in uh our one episode of 2008-2010 seasons.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh here we go.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: This guy is definitely falls solidly on this list, Tim, huh?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's definitely a mixed legacy kind of guy.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Reason for Hero, he was responsible for bringing Pitt out of the Dark Ages.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: He hired Walt Harris and he got Pitt into the ACC.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: Reason for Bum, he hired Todd Graham.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: He moved out of Pitt Stadium, getting Pitt into the ACC.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: It just he has such a mixed legacy, and I wonder if it's more a factor of his first stint versus his second stint.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: His first stint was probably more successful than his second stint.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I I kind of went with his first stint, he was a hero, and his second stint, he was a bum because he fired Dave Wonstadt and yeah, all that other stuff, and he was kind of just desperate to get pit into the ACC.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: So what say you, Tim Hannon?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's a good summary.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I would agree with all that, and uh and we we covered that in way more depth in the the Tale of Two Seasons episode that we did recently.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and we talked about Peterson's legacy.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I think you're right, it's it's very much a mixed back.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I like how you classified that is half hero, half bum.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: He's not even a meh because like he had the the his two tenures are so like exactly opposite.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's so weird.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: So go figure.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, next up on our list, and this should be another fun guy for us, uh, Antonio Brown.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Here we go.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Reason for Hero.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: He was really good.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: He he had a he was really good overall, he had a really solid career.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: He had a clutch catch against Baltimore in the championship game to get them to Super Bowl 45.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: You remember the helmet catch, Tim?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then um, you know, he he had a lot of other good seasons.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: He he like made a lot of good catches.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: He even had a clutch catch against Baltimore.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Was that a Christmas Eve or day game where he like went in there and got knocked around and scored a touchdown?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: That was Christmas that was Christmas and that won them the division in 2016.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean he really did some really quality stuff.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the only problem was is he he went totally nuts.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I always thought, and I still think this to this day, he's a bum.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: He's a bum because he's a stats guy and he never won anything.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: And when he the only reason he got to that one Super Bowl or the other Super Bowl with Tampa was there were other strong leadership people, and he wasn't a leader guy.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: He was just a guy on the team.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: He's kind of like a said a more talented Cedric Wilson.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: I it just he just he never won anything, and you have to win anything, win stuff.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: He and people love this guy and think he's just the greatest wide receiver ever, and he's definitely talented, but I I just don't I don't think of him anything more than just a stats guy.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: I I just always hated that play.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of the half, the Steelers will get the ball with five seconds left, and instead of like having Ben just chuck it into the end zone, oh we gotta throw it to Antonio Brown so he can get his stats, you know, so he can get like 30 meaningless yards and a catch.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: It was just so dumb.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: It just I don't know, Tim.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: I know you probably disagree with me on this.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I agree.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the lesson the lesson here is that in football, and probably in every sport, you you can't win Super Bowls with guys like that.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's the lesson learned.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well you can.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: You can, he just can't be the main focus.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: He can't like because he won with Tampa, but he would like I said, Tom Brady was the leader on that team.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: There are there were other players on that team that were the leaders.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and when you're and when you're such a uh cancer on the team that you're you're bringing everything else down, which is what he ended up being, it it it works in direct opposite of you trying to win a championship.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's unfortunate.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: The the only like hesitation I even have a little bit is I I've said this on the show before.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: I I I've been watching Pittsburgh sports for 40 plus years.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: If I had to name the three most exciting players to watch, he'd be one of the top three.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Him, Mario Lamie, and Larry Fitzgerald.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like watching those three guys play is was you could sit there and watch highlights of them all day.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: They were just so dominant, so good, so fun to watch.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's such a shame that he was who he was, and it worked out and it ended up the way he did because he could have been so great and he could have won multiple championships, but in the end it just it didn't play out that way, unfortunately.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's I I don't know, it's just a lot of these guys just like wasted talent, you almost feel like like they just didn't get it together completely or as much as you thought they should.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: So unfortunately for Antonio Brown, I I mean I don't and then you know he's burned out every place he's been.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: He he got himself kicked out of Pittsburgh, got himself kicked out of Oakland, got himself kicked out of New England, and then finally melted down in Tampa Bay and got himself kicked out of there.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, I'm sure all those other people were the problem, and he wasn't, so he's a bum.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that's one thing that was a little bit satisfying about all that was all the stuff about like you know, people criticizing Ben and Tomlin.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it's like well, well, uh Chucky couldn't handle him, uh uh Belichick, Bill Belichick couldn't handle him, Bruce Arians, Tom Brady, you know, these are these are all pillars of the NFL that that couldn't couldn't, you know, handle them either.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: So this idea that Tomlin or Ben or somebody was responsible for him and supposed to like set him straight, and uh that was just a bunch of BS.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Amen to that.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's enough about him.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um moving moving on to another guy, um, Chuck Tanner.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: We have you know, we have not mentioned Chuck Tanner much in the history of our podcast.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good point.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have not.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we'll have to do an episode here eventually on Twitter.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Tell folks who Chuck Tanner is, Steve, if they don't know.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: Chuck Tanner.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: He's the guy who sells peanuts down on the corner.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Chuck Tanner was the manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates the last time they won a World Series, believe it or not.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: That was in 1979.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so obviously the reason he's a hero is he got uh the Pirates over the hump to their last World Series win in 1979.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: He was like this ultimate optimist, and I think he took over in 77 to I think his 86, 85, 86, yeah.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: It was 85.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because yeah, because Lee was took over in 86.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: That was the really bad year, were they almost less town that we talked about in another episode?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: So he was always an optimist, always upbeat, and he kind of came up with this great philosophy on like he would call like what would he call it, lightning and thunder or something.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like they would have guys steal a base.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: He had like a bunch of fast guys in front of like Willie Starjell, and who else did they have Parker on the 79 team?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: So like you would have your power hitters and you would have a bunch of guys get on base before him, and then they would steal another base, and so then you would have another guy just you know that would hit like you know, home runs or doubles or whatever.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, he he was the guy who used Kent DeCalvey in that creative way, put him in left field so he could pitch him without taking him out of the game, you know, because he wanted Grant Jackson to pitch to another guy.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a very very creative manager, very optimist, very likable guy.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: If you've ever seen interviews, he's he's a very good interview.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, the reason he's a bum, not he the reason for he might be viewed as a bum, is like Tim said, he led a bunch of drug dealers in the clubhouse.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: He honestly should have been more vigilant.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I understand like when people are out on the street doing their own thing, like you can't, these are adults, you can't babysit them, but like seriously, if like who's that strange guy?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, doesn't that part of the drug tiles?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I didn't know that strange guy in the clubhouse.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's your you're the you're the you're in charge there.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: You can't like Tim at your workplace, if like a manager saw like some strange guy come in and he's like obviously doing something shady, wouldn't they kick him out?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it's just common sense.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: And but he never adjusted it, he never addressed it.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: And the problem is it got out of hand, like Tim Raines was like, Yeah, road trip to Pittsburgh.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: To get some drugs.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: Woo! Yeah.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it got really bad.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so what happened was there were the drug trials.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody got in trouble.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Chuck Chiner got fired because of it.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: The Pirates almost left town over it.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we almost lost our baseball team all of this.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, the only thing good was they kind of cleaned house and they brought in Jim Leland, which ended up being a very good hire.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: But the problem was the final verdict on this guy, I think he's a hero because nobody else has won a World Series with the Pirates since him.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: And um he's just he's just like a very, very solid manager.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a shame that like he couldn't have controlled his like the actual clubhouse a little bit better.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think to him there?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Am I off base on that one?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think he's still a hero, though.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I agree.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and this goes back to kind of what you were just saying about Antonio Brown.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: That you're right.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: This this so so on one hand, I I can't stand this this mentality that some fans still seem to have over like the head coach is like you know, the the this is like the Vince Lombardi or Newt Rockney days where it it's it's some kind of drill sergeant boot camp where they just have total control over the players and they have a curfew at night and they you know they don't do anything anytime because coaches are watching.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that that's an era that will never come back.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: When you're paying these guys gazillions of dollars, they're adults, they can do whatever they want.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that was even true in the 80s.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Dave Parker was a was the first million-dollar baseball player, right?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So so I I hate that idea of the coach or the manager should control everybody on the team.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: That being said, to Steve's point, this was literally happening in the clubhouse.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: If this was if this was happening out on the street, yeah, Chuck Tanner can't control all that.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: He should have he probably should have done more.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: However, that does not nullify all the good things he did.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm with you.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: He's a hero, not a bum.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: And he's a nice guy, he's a good guy.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: He's he really is.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: He just probably the nice guy didn't act.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: He should have, you know, like I said, you know, we see the guy in a trench coat hanging out over there.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, who is that?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: Get the hell out of here.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, seriously.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: So moving on to the person who's probably the exact opposite of Chuck D would be Michelle Terrion.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: Michelle Terrion would not have let you deal drugs in his locker room, for sure.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: The reason for his a hero, he was really the best thing that happened to the young penguins.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like they had that one season with Eddie Olcek and like all the veterans, and everybody ran amok.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: And remember that, Tim?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: And they didn't really have much success.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: I do remember that we did a whole episode on it.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, so what Tyrion did is he came in and he got this young team some discipline and he turned them around and he got them all the way to the Stanley Cup final in his would that be his third or fourth year, maybe?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: It would have been his it would have been his second full season because he it was he came in in the middle of that 2006 season.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: And they fired Oltech.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: So like two and a half seasons, he's it has them in the finals.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty impressive.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so unfortunately, the middle of the next year, the Penguins really like are stinking.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: They are almost on the verge of being out of the playoffs, and so they fire him, and the Penguins that year actually go on to win the Stanley Cup that year.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just it's just so weird that like he had such a like meteoric rise and fall, but I think he's just one of those coaches, and I've said this before about him, he's like a good turnaround coach, but his message, he's like Mike Keenan.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: He has like a shelf life, like all that yelling and screaming, after a while, people tune it out, and I think that's what happened to him.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm still gonna call him a hero.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think the Penguins win their first Stanley Cup without him.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think with in even though Dan Balsma was the coach after he had been fired, as a lot of people credited him, and I think rightfully so, in winning that Stanley Cup.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm gonna say he's a hero because that was a big turnaround.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, the Penguins hadn't made the playoffs in a couple of years, and he got him back to the playoffs, then he got him all the way to the final.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's just I think his message started to wear off by the end of that.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's a good summary.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: He he definitely laid the groundwork for that first title, so he deserves he definitely deserves credit there.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, he just he was there for a season, and that was the our season of time, not the season of hockey, and that season was over, and the the penguins needed that for a time, and then they didn't, so it is what it is.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: He he did his job and did it well, and I I think he still lived in Pittsburgh for a while.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: He might still live in Pittsburgh.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: He he's really like he really is attached to the area, so good for him.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: And the best is like that time he cussed uh the locker room out in English and French.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: So just in case you didn't catch it in English, you can catch it in French bilingual cuss out.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that doesn't happen every day, huh?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Moving on to another coach who left town.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but this like this guy on his own, um, Ben Howland.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: And um the reason for a hero was he got pit basketball to respectability, and that's unbelievable because do we remember the pits, the state of pit basketball pre-1999?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was horrible.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: There were people robbing people, and they never made the tournament.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't think they had won a game in the Big East tournament before that.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was a dumpster fire of a program.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: It absolutely was.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Just a total joke before.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it really was.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so Ben Holland shows up and he gets into the Sweet 16 a couple times, and then all of a sudden he decides UCLA comes with like a truckload of money, and they're like, hey, I I like money, you too?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow, cool.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: So he goes out there.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: Was it the head of Nike or something that paid him a bunch of money?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: One of the shoe companies.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: So every time you buy a Nico shoe, you're contributing to the leaving of Ben Holland.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Y'all straight shame.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so the final decision, I know I totally respect that he got Pitt to respectability, but I'm calling him a bum because he he should have stayed at Pitt and saw it through.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: If he if he stays at Pitt, maybe he lasts forever.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe he's still coaching Pitt Basketball.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe he realized that Pitt only had a limited amount of resources and they were never going to go any farther than he could get them, and he decided it was time to catch cash in and get that big paycheck.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think he just got fired again from Mississippi State just this last spring.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you know he's bouncing around out there, Tim.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean Am I in the minority on the uh hating Ben?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't hate Ben How.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: I just I just think it's annoying how he left for a bunch of money and then I don't know.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't really he had success, but he didn't win a national championship.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he got them to the championship game, though.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean he he came very close.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I I yeah, this one's tough.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I I was really upset when he left.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people were.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I remember being at a restaurant and I went to use the men's room and they had taken all the the little urinal things that you put in the urinals and they had put pictures of Ben Hallen on it.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um so people were very upset when he left.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I I but you know, it's it's we could be accused of a little hypocrisy here, Steve, because we're saying Michelle Terrian was a hero for laying the groundwork so that somebody else could take over the team and do well with them.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: But he got fired.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't leave for the I I know.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying that Ben Hallen kind of did the same thing.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: He took he took a team that was was totally irrelevant, totally turned them around, set them up very well.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Pitt fortunately had a good successor in place who is a guy that Howland groomed.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: So he you know he did leave them in good hands, and Pitt had success after that.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, I'm kind of on the fence on this one, even though I don't like him and I really didn't like the circumstances of him.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: You're going more with a meh, a meh.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'll go meh on that one.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, fair enough.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh speaking of uh guys that replaced guys, uh Dan Balsma.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um Reason for Hero.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: As we mentioned, he was the guy who replaced Terrion and got the pens to a Stanley Cup.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um after that, boy, he didn't do much of anything else, did he, Tim?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um he reason for uh bum, he never got the penguins back to a Stanley Cup.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: He was the coach when they lost to that ridiculous Flyers playoffs.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: He was the genius with Team USA that kept sending out TJ Osy, Oshi like five times in a row in a shootout.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: I just I just feel like his team's always underachieved.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: I I never felt like they did what they are expected to do.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: He had so much talent on those teams.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: And even there was one year where Crosby and Malkin were hurt, and then like he makes it to the playoffs, and I thought, well, if he wins a playoff series, because they were playing Tampa, and I didn't think Tampa was that good that year, and they lost to Tampa in like the first round, and I was like, I don't know about that.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I just felt like he he should have done more with the talent he had, and that's why I kind of list him as a little bit of a bum.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: And quite honestly, he hasn't had any success since then.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think he's a minor league coach for the Seattle team, like whoever the Kraken have as their minor league people.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: He's back to being a minor league coach, which was what he was before he came to the Penguins.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: And uh your thoughts on uh Mr.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Dan Balsma's bummer hero status there, Tim?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I uh another tough one because he won a Stanley Cup and man, we all loved him for a while there.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: But it was with Terrion's team, I'll say it.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but but Terrian couldn't beat Detroit and Balsma did.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I I'm not gonna take that away from him.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: I I think the thing that the thing that bothered me more than the like underachieving was, and we talked about it in this episode we did about that um 2012 playoff series against the Flyers.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just that they underachieved, is that they they were not likable.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: They they they whined and they folded easily.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like when something went bad, they just collapsed and folded.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: That series against the Flyers, they folded.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: The series, the conference finals against Boston, they scored two goals in the entire series.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: The the series against the Rangers, they had a three games to one lead and they and they threw it away because they just they folded super easily.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they were undisciplined too.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: They would take a lot of stupid penalties with him.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: They would take a lot of stupid penalties, they would whine and cry and and complain, and it just wasn't a likable team under Bow's mother's last four or five years.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I'm not gonna argue with him being in the bum category.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Nice, nice.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Look at us.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: Who'd have thought?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you mentioned this guy earlier, uh, Dave Parker.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, reason for hero, great pirate, was a great hitter, and a great fielder.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: People forget that.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: Dude, do you ever see the highlights of him throwing people out at home plate, Tim?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: They're on YouTube.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's one from an all-star game in the 70s where he guns down, I can't remember who the American League Pete Rose?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, it wasn't.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: It would have been it would have been somebody from the American League, but he I mean it's an amazing throw, yeah.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's true, he was a tremendous fielder.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: And he won the batting title in uh 1979, I think.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: And he was at the league MVP in 1978.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: And he won the World Series with the Pirates in 79.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: He was a great player.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: And um, reason for bum, um, unfortunately, he got in the drugs, and he would be very he was very confrontational with the fans.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it was like deserved or not.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't live through it.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like I was much too young for all that.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, people were throwing batteries at him and stuff from the from the stand, so maybe Dave Parker had a point.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I I'm putting him as a hero because he helped win a World Series and he was very good.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't realize he was the first million-dollar player.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Was that with the Pirates or was that with somebody else?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: I was with the Pirates, believe it or not.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hard to believe.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um Dave Parker, hero, I I think that overshadows, even though the drugs and stuff, he did waste some of his career.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: I bet if he doesn't get into drugs, he's a fur he would have been a first ballot Hall of Famer.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's probably like that diminished his stats, and I think that's a big reason.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like people complained that he's not in the Hall of Fame, and that's he just just needed like a little bit more, I think, to put him over the top.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: I forget how many, I I forget he has like I don't think he has 300 home runs.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: He might, but he definitely doesn't have 400.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, we we talked about so we did an episode uh about the Pittsburgh drug trials, and we called it how two fans nearly destroyed the pirates, because that's kind of a that's a very interesting story behind all that.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and Dave Parker was really hated for a while here, and it feels like time has kind of healed all those wounds.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: They bring him back to PNC Park and people cure him.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think I think he'll be fondly remembered.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: He had 339 home runs.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: And normally, like, you gotta get to like 400 or 500.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's I think it's the drug stuff that kept him out of the Hall of Fame, honestly.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, and and he had over he had 2,000 hits.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean But but what the arc of his career, Steve, was he was super dominant in in the early part of his career.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: He was winning MVP and batting titles, and then he had a lull there for the early part of the 80s through the middle part of the eighties, where he was not a good baseball player, and that was when he was really addicted to cocaine.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then he had a little bit of a resurgence later with Cincinnati, and he had some good seasons.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think he made a couple All-Star games with the Reds.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: So he but imagine had he just been good for all those years.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: He'd be a first ball at Hall of Famer.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: He probably definitely, I think he'd have over 400 home runs.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, his career, I hate to compare it to like Kurt Warner because Kurt Warner wasn't, you know, didn't fade away for the same reasons.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it was very good.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Kurt Warner's thumb got messed up.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's what happened to Kurt Warner.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right, yeah.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: But but Kurt Warner, like really good seasons, league MVP, all that stuff, then kind of like faded into obscurity and then came back and was was had a very strong end to his career.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and there was debate about him getting into the Hall of Fame for that same reason.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's like, well, he kind of was like really good, then not really good, then really good again.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is that is that enough?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually, you know, the the football voters decided yes, baseball baseball voters are a little more stingy uh on who they put in the hall of fame.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so maybe he'll get there someday, who knows?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he's very sick now, too.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it'd be nice to see him get in before he you won't be alive to enjoy it.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: Next up on our list, another pirate that uh maybe not as uh more infamous than Dave Parker.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: That would be uh Stan Belinda.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Reason for Hero, he was a great setup man and a pretty good closer in the even in the playoffs the year before.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: He set up Bill, I think they had Bill Landrum before him.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: And he was good.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: He was good at that role.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: He was even decent as a closer.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think we we'd mentioned him in the uh they baseball died.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: He he gotten out of based load jams before, but unfortunately, the reason for his bumness is uh that one playoff game against the Greys, he gave up a hit to Francis Cabrero.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: That was bad.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I I don't I don't want to be too hard on Stan Belinda.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's like kind of the Louis Deming territory.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like he is who he is.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: He wasn't like this great player that squandered it all, and he wasn't like a jerk about it.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: He stood up and took the rep.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I give him a meh.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: He's not the reason the pirates, he's not the only reason the pirates lost.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe Jose Lean should have fielded an easy ground ball.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: And he's not the reason the pirates have stunk since then.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you know the ownership should have uh spent some money.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll let him off.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna let him off the hook.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not calling him a hero because he's definitely not that, but he's not a bum either.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: So he's definitely a solid meh.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's fair.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe maybe kind of like the McCarra guy that was maybe a little unfairly scapegoated.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he came into that game, game seven, with uh oh, I I believe zero outs.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: So he got the first two outs.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: And in the second out, people never remember this, but it was huge.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: The second out, he got Brian Hunter to pop up, but the basics.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's what you want to happen.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you want to pop him out.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: All Brian Hunter had to do was hit a fly ball there and the game's tied.
• 39:15
  unknown: Yeah.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or or even ground a shortstop in a fielder's choice.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like Brian Hunter had an easy chance to tie that game and he got him to pop up, which meant that all he had to, if he could have got Francisco Cabrera to ground out, fly out, anything that was an out, the Pirates go to the World Series.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or if Jose Lee fields that ground ball cleanly, then that pop-up would have been the final out.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Stan Belinda was very close to being in hero status, but I agree.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: He does not deserve bum status.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, moving on to another guy that's kind of there's a lot of guys like this, just I don't know, one-hit wonders or whatever, but it's weird how some people are bums in that category and some people are heroes.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: But like I said, this is all about your perception, and this is just my perception, which is obviously the correct one, Tim.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um Jeff Zatkoff.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: Does anybody remember this guy?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, let's rind the clock back to 2016.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's game one.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Matt Murray has been concussed, and uh Marc-Andre Fleury is still hurt.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so it's he's much in the same situation, and it's weird against the Rangers again, Tim.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's weird.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: He's pretty much the same situation that uh Louis Domingue was, what wasn't he?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty much, yeah.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, except except he started that game.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Louis Domingue came in in like the first overtime.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't think Zakkoff had spicy broccoli before then game either.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: But other than that, yes, very similar.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, he he wins the game.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought this is a tremendous performance by because I when he was coming in, I thought, oh, the penguins are done here.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: But the penguins played good defense in front of him, and he needed the saves he needed to make, and the penguins won.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then unfortunately, his reason for bum, um, the next game, he kind of went back to he was like, hey, wait a minute, I'm Jeff Zackoff.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not that good.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um and he gave up a bunch of goals and the penguins lost.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: But it didn't matter because they had won one game in New York and that's all they needed out of him.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: And um the final decision, I think he's a hero.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: He won the one game we needed in the win, which is more than Doming, which I think is the difference.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, we just need one game out of you, and that that's like okay.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, he's a hero.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: He won that game.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: He got replaced by Bat Murray, who was done being concussed, I guess.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, and the rest is history as we rolled onto the Stanley Cup from there.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I don't know.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how I can call this guy a hero and Louis Deming a bum, I I don't know.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: I just think that goal was so egregious by Deming, it's like I can't get over it.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I think too, uh the end result matters, right?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: With with Louis Domingue, they lost that series.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: With Jeff Zakkoff, not only did they win that series, they went on to win the Stanley Cup.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe that's why.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: If if if the Penguins win that series in 2022 against the Rangers, even if they don't go on to win the Stanley Cup that year, maybe maybe Doming's a hero because they don't win that series if he doesn't win that game.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's Zakkoff.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: They don't win that series potentially if he doesn't win that game.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if they don't win that series, they don't win a Stanley Cup.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I think it's fair to put Zakkoff in the hero category.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, moving on to Pirates Management.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Neil Huntington, I think this is a good one.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: This is another really good mixed bag here.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, reason for hero.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: He saved the pirates from a 20 consecutive loss seasons.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: He found a loophole and exploited it, which was that paying over draft, he would just pay like all these draft pickets a bunch of money.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the one time the Pirates money spent money and started exploiting it, Major League Baseball got mad.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: What a shocker, huh?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, reason for bum.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: He couldn't sustain the winning, and the pirates have gone back to their losing ways.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think um I don't know.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: I I I don't think he's a bum because uh I'm I I think he's I think he's a hero.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm going out with that because he at least got the pirates to a couple winning seasons.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: It would have been nice if he could have found another loophole or found a way to sustain it, but he just couldn't.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just it just was forces beyond his control.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe if he had better ownership that could have voted down, would have voted against or formed alliances against those rule changes, you know, he he would have been better shape.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: But as usual, Bob Nutting signing with um major market teams doesn't help your cause.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I I think hero is fair for him.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's not not his fault.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean he he was climbing he was always climbing an uphill battle no matter what.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and he had more success with the team than anybody else has in the past thirty years.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and it's not his fault that they had.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: To had to gut it.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: It was like you said, it's the ownership.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and especially like if you see your winning this way, wouldn't you have enough sense to like okay, go to Cincinnati and all the other teams?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, let's have an ally, you know, let's hold up the vote until we get something we want that can keep us competitive.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: But that's not how baseball works, and you know that.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's just stupid.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's stupid how it works because it's like it's the same thing with like the giant salaries, like, oh well, these big players will never vote for a salary cap.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if it's real easy to sell it to the players, a salary cap if you're a Bob Nutting, you're like, hey, we're gonna put a salary minimum, which means you're gonna make more.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, Scott Boris doesn't have enough pull enough players, you can vote against them.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's more of the mediocre to just barely in at players than there are the Clayton Kershaws of the world.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, the you're making two big assumptions there.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: One is that the owners of baseball teams all want to do what's good for the sport and not what's good for them.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's number one.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: But it would be good for him.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like you gotta imagine, I gotta think more people would watch you if you're competitive.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh they don't.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: They don't care about that.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: And number two, the the the the assumption that um they don't you know that they they want a more competitive market, they don't.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, you would think it's it's it's like the same argument we always have about college football.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like what like why wouldn't college football have a um a playoff?
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't wouldn't more people watch?
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't you actually make more money instead of having you know these ridiculous pools and things like that?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, because yeah, because Ohio State can't get it in.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: See, and that's the same as bait, the same thing with baseball.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: The Red Sox and Dodgers wouldn't be in it or or or whatever.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it the NFL is by far the most popular sports league in the country and an unstoppable force for a reason.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because way back when I don't think the current group of owners would make the same decisions, but way back when they decided to do some things that weren't necessarily good for individual teams, but were good for for the league.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: And Pete Rosell and Art Rooney and George Hallis and people like that made those decisions.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: The Maras.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: The Maras, right?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all those people made those decisions, sacrificed some things, and that's why the NFL is where it is, and Major League Baseball is where it is in college football and everything else.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, but you know, major league baseball, college football, doesn't mean you still make uh barrels of money.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: So they're so until it gets bad enough that they don't make money anymore, they're on what they're doing.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, um moving on to the next guy on our list, the old Mr.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Phil Kessel, Tim.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um reason for here, part of that HBK line that was unstoppable in 2016-2017.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um reason for uh bum.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um he's just an enigmatic player.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: He why doesn't he play defense?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: He he turns the puck over.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't I don't know, but he's so good on that line, and they were so dominant, and we won so many Stanley Cups.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: I I went with hero for uh Phil Kessel because he's a like Obama said, he's a Stan Cup champion, and he likes to eat hot dogs out of the Stan.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm alright with that.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: He looks like a guy you would see in a rec league hockey game, but he's an NHL talent, that's for sure.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I have to disagree with you on this one, Steve.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Phil Kessel's not a hero.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: Phil Kessel's an American treasure.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: American treasure.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: Hero is far beneath what Phil Kessel is.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: Looks like a looks like a rec league hockey player, plays like Morty Howe.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Phil Kessel will be beloved in this town 30 years from now.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's no way anybody's gonna see him as a bum.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and he's kind of like what you said about Terrian.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's guys who have shelf lives.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's that was Kessel.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: He just he had a shelf life and that was used up and he moved on.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: And to bring in a cold coach, just like they used to call like Rick Talkett the jerk whisperer.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: Just come in.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it wasn't it's funny, it wasn't the same as like an Antonio Brown.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: He just wouldn't play defense.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not blocking a shot.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like well, Phil Kessel, like you said, American treasure and hot dog lover extraordinaire.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: So um uh moving on to mediocre pick quarterbacks uh being Nathan Peterman.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um reason for hero, he got picked to an improbable wins over Clemson and Penn State in 2016.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: He was a pick quarterback for a couple of years.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um reason for bum, he lost the navy in the military bowl, which I witnessed in person, and he was pretty bad.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: His arm didn't look right.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think he was hurt or something because he just could not throw the ball well that day.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: So um I rated him as a meh because James Connor really was the star of that offense.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, he was just kind of he had some good games and he he performed when they needed him to, but I don't know that he was the straw that stirred the drink on that offense.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think of our friend Nathan Peterman?
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I think that's by process of elimination, that's a good rating because he's he's neither a hero nor a bum.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I I very much don't care what happens in bowl games because college football has rendered them meaningless.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but again, I'm not gonna go down that path.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: Again, so yeah, he's he's he's mad.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and kudos to him.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: He's somehow still playing in the NFL.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: He's he's on Chicago now.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: He's he's managed to and he'll be playing in week two of next year whenever what's his name?
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: Dustin Fields gets hurt.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: Justin Fields gets hurt, yeah.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because he runs every single down.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: So he'll be starting by week two or three.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh your brother your brother should uh should be looking forward to that, huh?
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: The well, I mean, it's Chicago.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like they're gonna get much worse.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: So so uh, you know, like kudos to him for somehow having a long NFL career.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and his NFL career is very much the in the MAC category, too.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: So well, didn't he have like the four intercept or two interceptions in that game in the playoffs for Buffalo?
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: He he there was some infamous game where he I think he threw four or five interceptions in the first half.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't believe it was a playoff game, but yeah, but that was pretty bad.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: But other than that, it's just been he's he's your standard journeyman backup quarterback, so good for him.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh moving on to other mediocre pick quarterbacks, uh Bill Stahl, um reason for hero.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: He got pit within a point of going to the orange bowl.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: Wasn't his fault they missed the extra point.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um reason for bum.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he just was not all that clutch.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um he was just kind of like another mediocre quarterback on a run-heavy pit team.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: He was kind of like hand the ball off to Dion Lewis kind of guy.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: But he he was good when he needed to be.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, he wasn't a bad player.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: He's probably another like meh kind of guy like Peterman.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: Good enough, but but just not great.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: I like Bill Stahl, though.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: He he's a nice guy.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it seems okay.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean him and Peterman are really the same person, quite honestly.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: The the only the only difference I'd say with Stahl is Stahl was never supposed to be the quarterback of that team.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they had recruited uh Pat Bossick, who was very, very highly recruited, and it didn't work out, and so Stahl was kind of thrust in as the quarterback of that team.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was I I compare him more to like Louis Domingue because it's like he he overachieved for a guy that really wasn't supposed to be in the spot he was, and he led them to their in 2009 uh really until the 2021 championship season, that was their best season of really uh since Dan Marino.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: So uh and and yeah, was he the was he he wasn't Kenny Pickett or Dan Marino, you know, leading those teams by any stretch, but he was pretty good.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and you're right, he wasn't clutch.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: That Cincinnati game, he threw a very key interception in the fourth quarter of that game.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, but uh I don't know.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: He was an overachiever, he wasn't a hero, he wasn't a bum, he was mad, but he was an overachiever.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um next up on our list is Yevgeny Malkin.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um reason for hero.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_02: He's probably like what the fourth or fifth greatest player for the Penguins ever?
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say?
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: Mario, Yager, Sid.
• 52:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: Who's after that?
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: Francis, maybe?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's he's he's he's in there.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: He's got himself up.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, he scored all kinds of big goals in the playoffs and gotten us the Stanley Cups.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean he he's he even plays good defense.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think he's a good defensive player, too.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: He's just a very good player.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the reason for Bum, it's mainly like sometimes um, I don't know, the uh the crazy just comes out in him.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: He just decides to take insane penalties, especially in the offensive zone.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think he just did this recently, didn't he take like four penalties and get kicked out of the game?
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, Vegetie Malkin, I'm going for hero because he's definitely he's won three Stanley Cups.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: He's a legend, he scored big goals, he plays good defense.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_02: He just every once in a while he he loses his mind.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: So um, and who among us hasn't?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: So he's hero who massively irritates you.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the ultimate, he's the ultimate no, no, no, yes, yes, yes guy.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, don't do that.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yes.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: So another guy that's kind of like in that same category is Chris Letang.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: So the reason he's a hero, he's probably the Penn's greatest defenseman of all time.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_02: He has 154 goals all-time, and that's good for 40th all-time.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: And uh here, I'll play one of his biggest goals here.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_05: Spins, hangs him under the puck again, through it in front.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_05: Hornquist is there in the battle.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_05: Crosby to Latin.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_05: He shoots, he scores! There's your answer from the Pittsburgh Penguins, Chris Letang.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: So you can watch the highlight we'll put at our uh website, but um, Chris Letang does this incredible spin move, skates behind the net, passes it to Crosby, and then he goes to like the side post kind of dot area, would you say, Tim?
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then absolutely puts a I mean, I don't know how that puck went in.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know?
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like literally, what would you say?
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: There was like a two-inch spot to put it in, and he put it right in the corner high, and it was the game-winning goal of that of game six for the penguins, which they won on the road, as they all as is customary with the penguins.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: They always win their Stanley Cups on the road.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: So um he's an amazing again.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_02: San Jose that year, yeah.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: That was the cup winning goal.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, reason for bum, he is a turnover machine.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_02: He he boy, he does like and he doesn't really play a physical game.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: Also, reason for heroes, boy, he's overcome some serious medical injuries.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_02: Talk about guys like he actually has a congenitive heart defect that causes him to have blood clots, and he's played a whole like how many years he's been in the league?
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: Ten years, something.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: So good for Chris Letang.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he's a hero.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_02: Come on.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: I hear people people complain about him, and I do too.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I he annoys me, but he's another no, no, no, yes, yes, yes.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he's like, oh my gosh, don't skate in front of the net with the you know, your own net with the puck, but then he like makes some spectacular play and you score a goal off of it.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: So let Chris Letang cook, I guess.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: Russell, I don't know.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: He he he's a very good player and he's a hero.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: He he scored big goals, same thing.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: He's only I was surprised he was a low on the all-time list as he was with is he the best Penguins defenseman?
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: The penguins had uh Paul Coffey and Larry Murphy play for them, but I guess you know Chris Letang's played for them longer, so I don't know, Tim.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I think with yeah, so he's he's definitely in hero category.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think with with Letang and even Malkin, there's there's something that happens in in this town with sports fans.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you play here long enough, which Malkin and Letang have been here, I think, 16 seasons, which is a long time, eventually people are going to find a lot of your flaws, which are which you know, and and they're not made-up flaws either, to your point.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like these are fair criticisms.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: And they're and some people are just gonna hone in on that and get frustrated by it.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what happens is after these those guys are gone, you know, they're just remembered fondly as these all-time great players, right?
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: People forget about the flaws, and that that's probably happened with some of the 70s Steelers players.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's happened with a lot of guys, and I think um Flatang, yeah, you have to put them in that hero category.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, staying with the Penguins, um Tom Barotto.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um reason he made the saves, he played well in the Penguins Cup runs from 91 and 92.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: He's the first American goalie to 300 wins.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_02: And he has 369 wins, which is third all time by an American.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think he's behind um Ryan Miller and somebody else.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um reason for bum.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, well, Tim, here you go.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna make you relive this.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: He gave up that horrible goal in game seven.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_02: Was this the Florida game?
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_02: No, this is uh this is the Islanders.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_05: Turns with Corona.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_05: Here they come.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_05: Two on one bullet shoots two! David Bullock Islanders and the Big New Stanley Cup champion!
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was that was bad.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_02: That was an I think I actually that was an overtime, wasn't it?
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_02: The David Bollock goal.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_02: Game seven overtime, I guess.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was it was a two-on-one.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wasn't the wasn't the I honestly thought I thought you were gonna play the the Florida.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: So they were in the conference finals against Florida in game seven in '96, and it was tied, and he gave up a goal from like it was Tom Fitzgerald from like almost center ice.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: It felt like that one too, yeah.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: I always thought that was more egregious, but but yeah, both both of those were games that no one thought the Penguins were going to lose, and they lost, and Barrasso did not help.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he's kind of a jerk to the media.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of a jerk.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, he is a jerk to the media, whatever.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he's a hero.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: Come on.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: Two Stanley Cops, third most wins by an American goalie in a Vesna trophy.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_02: Dude's a hero.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: He can not talk to the media all he wants.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: Steve Carlton doesn't either, so you know, good for him.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I I don't totally disagree with you.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's just for all the good things he did, there's so much bad uh with with like the two things we mentioned, and just being a jerk to people.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just the media.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was his teammates too.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: They uh Patrick Laleem, when Patrick Laleem came to the Penguins, he he was really good as a rookie, and Barrasso uh like berated him and and just you know, he was so threatened by him.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that some people might argue that that's the reason Patrick Lim never had success after that, because Barasso just you know tried to ruin him.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: So he wasn't a good teammate, he wasn't a really a great person.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's hard for me to assign hero status, but then he did win two Stanley Cups.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, who who else has done that?
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: Matt Murray and Tom Barrasso.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's your list of penguin goalies that have won multiple Stanley Cups, so hard to argue with that part.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um moving on, back to the Steelers, a guy named uh Mason Rudolph.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um Reason for Hero, boy, um I don't know, he has good hair, Tim, right?
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that's kind of uh Reason for Bum.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he got in that stupid fight with Miles Garrett.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um I put him as Bum.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: He never achieved much of anything.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_02: He's had so many opportunities, and he just I know he's gotten some bad breaks, but you sometimes you just gotta prove yourself above that.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_02: And here I have a video clip.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure which one this is.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe this is him getting hit over the head.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, here it is.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's him getting hit over the head.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_04: Here's a flag as whoa, hello, whoa!
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_03: Mason Rudolph getting news get out of there.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_02: What in the world?
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: And Joe Buck is mystified by Mason Rudolph getting in a fight with Miles Gary.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know what to tell you.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_02: He he just he needed to do more.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: I really thought this guy was gonna be really good.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: I saw him play in college against Pitt and he lit them up, and I thought he was gonna be really good.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe he still has a chance.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think he's gonna go somewhere else.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: I get the feeling he's gonna be a pretty successful backup, but I thought James Washington was gonna be good last year, and look what he look where he is, not in the NFL anymore.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: So what say you, Tim, on Mr.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: Mason Rudolph?
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I wouldn't put him as a bum because of what happened with Miles Garrett.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that was more on Miles Garrett than on Mason Rudolph, but but I would say that you know you're right, he he had ample opportunity.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: He was really he was really groomed as Big Ben's successor.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then when it came time to succeed Big Ben, they went out and got two other quarterbacks to that weren't Mason Rudolph, so yeah.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's not been treated fairly, but well among us has he?
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean again he had that chance against the the the Lions, and I think if he does well there, maybe they give him a second look.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: The the Lions, he had that whole season where Ben was hurt, and I know he got hurt too, but it it's just at some point you have to step into that.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's the life of a backup quarterback.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have to capitalize on your opportunities, he never did.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, another Steeler backup quarterback from that same season, uh Devlin Duck Hodges.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh reason for hero, he beat San Diego in Cincinnati.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_02: Reason for bum.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_02: He couldn't get the Steelers to beat the Jets that year.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_02: They just him and Rudolph stunk that game, and they just couldn't.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: I knew going into that game they were going to lose because they just couldn't, you know, score enough points.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_02: So um here, we'll look at the uh TD real quick of Cincinnati.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_05: All right, Hodges looking deep again.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_04: Washington's open.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_04: Washington has it.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_04: One man to beat.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_04: Washington shoves one down.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_05: Touchdown.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, what a play! 79 yards!
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that's like Duck Hodges' big highlight.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think he he beat that, he beat the team in San Diego, and that was one of the most unbelievable wins.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_02: I that was just Mike Tomlin pulling it out there.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um reason, like I said, he just he was a minor leaguer.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he's probably a bum.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_02: He's just a minor leaguer who Mike Tomlin stole a couple wins with, but maybe he's more meh, like more in the Louis Denny.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_02: I have him as a bum, but I could be suede to meh.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_02: I just I just I held that again.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's like they just needed to score like literally two touchdowns against the Jets and they win, and they just couldn't do it.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that that really annoyed me.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's very similar to Louis Domingue, where like the longer you leave him in, yeah, the worse he's going to do.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: If if he if he needs to come in and steal you a win, then he's a hero.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of like Jeff Zatkoff.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: Again, if Jeff Zakkoff would have played that whole series, we don't remember him as fondly because he'll eventually, like you said, remember that he's Jeff Zatkoff, and that's what happened to Duck.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_02: The old Duck.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_02: Now he's making duck calls.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_02: He couldn't even make it in the CFL, so go figure.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how about Gary Anderson?
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_02: You remember Gary Anderson, Tim?
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love Gary Anderson.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, he's a re he's a hero.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know why he's a hero?
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because he eliminated Houston from the playoffs in 1989.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_02: I bet you all want to watch that, don't you?
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_03: So it has come down to this.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh, on the call.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_03: Over here has connected six times from 50 plus.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_03: Six out of 15.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_03: He's hit from 49 on two occasions this season.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_03: This would win it.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_03: And Anderson's kick is good.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_03: The Pittsburgh Steelers have upset the Houston Oilers in the AFC wildcard.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_03: They have done it by the score of 26 to 23 and will advance to go up against the Denver Broncos Next Sunday.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, I wonder if they shook hands.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if uh Jerry Glenville and Chuck Knoll shook hands after that.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, um, yes, so he's a hero for kicks like that.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_02: He was really good on turf and really kick a reliable kicker on in Three River Stadium.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, reason for bum, he couldn't kick on grass.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then he left for free agency.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then um, I guess if he asked if this podcast was a Minnesota Vikings podcast, what he would definitely be a bum.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah because he missed that.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: He missed one field goal a year, and unfortunately that was the one that would have locked up the uh NFC championship for him.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_02: So um I think he's a hero in Pittsburgh, at least.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't I can't speak for the people great people of Minnesota.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, he's he's a hero.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: He was he was he was for almost a whole decade, he was the Steelers' best offensive player.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that that's that's the literal truth.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, he's hero.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um next.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: Stuff is uh Mr.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_02: Mike Tomzak.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he's a hero because he got to the Steelers to the playoffs in 1996, and he beat the Colts in that same playoff year in the wildcard game.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, reason for bum.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: He threw way too many interceptions.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think he was a little better than mediocre.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I I kind of rated him as another guy that's just kind of a meh.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_02: He was very up and down, was never bad enough to bench, was never good enough to win the game.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_02: But he's definitely better than like Duck Hodges or even Mason Rudolph, but he just wasn't you probably weren't gonna win like the Super Bowl with him.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I like Mike Tomzak.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_02: He was a very like solid quarterback, but once again, I I I think he's better than like Mason Rudolph or Doc Hodges, but he's definitely not you know maybe gonna win you a Super Bowl.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean fair assessment, Tim.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: Fair fair assessment.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: When when when he was backing up Neil O'Donnell, there were a couple of times where he had to come in for two or three games, and he beat one time he beat Dan Marino in a huge game at home.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_01: So so again, again, just like so many other guys on this list, what came in could steal you some wins, the longer you left him in, the worse it got.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think he had a longer, like you could leave him in longer than Jeff Zatkoff or Doc Rodges, right?
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: But eventually you just keep leaving him, make him start the whole season, like he did in '96, and then he turned into an interception machine.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds about right.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, sticking with the theme of Steeler quarterbacks that we'd probably like to forget.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um another guy that went to the Broncos and uh won a Super Bowl.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that would be one Bubby Brister.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I know you know this guy, Tim.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_02: This is the quarterback of your youth, huh?
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_02: Or was it Mark?
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have Mark Malone on.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have Mark on Mark Malone on this list, but I do have Bubby Brister.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um Reason for Hero, uh, we already played that highlight of Houston.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_02: He was the quarterback.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_02: He beat Houston that day in '89.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_02: He also had a career day in 1990 against the Broncos during four touchdowns.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Reason for Bum, throwing interceptions and making boneheaded plays.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_02: And he and uh after this, they were losing to Houston 31-6 in 9091.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_02: And like I guess um Neil O'Donnell got pulled, and Chuck Knowle wanted um the Bubster to go in.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_02: And this is the the Bubster's quote here.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't mop up for anybody after refusing to play in the fourth quarter of Sunday's 31-6 loss to Houston.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_02: So um that's from the Tampa Bay paper.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_02: So Bubby was no mop-up quarterback.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, then Bubby figured out that maybe he was a mop-up quarterback and he mopped up for John Elway in the Broncos all the way to a Super Bowl.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_02: So um he mopped himself into a uh a Super Bowl ring there.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_02: Good for the Bubster.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think he's a he's both.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_02: He he's like the Steve Peterson.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_02: He's a bum and a hero.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_02: What a big playoff, and then he was definitely a jerk about it.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_02: So um well, you you love Bubby, huh, Tim?
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he was just a character more than anything.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know how good of a quarterback he I was he okay?
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, he wasn't a good quarterback.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: But he, again, kind of like Bill Stall, some of the other guys, he he overachieved that 89 season.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: He really overachieved and had his moment.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_01: So good for him.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh, we're gonna go with another penguin, uh Brandon Sutter.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he had a decent, he was a decent center.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_02: He won a stand, no, he did not win a sneeze.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_02: He was a decent center, but he was traded.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_02: He was part of the trade.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_02: They traded Jordan Stahl to Carolina, we got Brandon Sutter.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_02: And um he was uh he was not Jordan Stahl, and that was the problem.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_02: He was very mediocre.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I'm saying he's a hero because he was a traded for Nick Benino in 2015.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_02: So he didn't do much with the Penguins, but um, he ended up being a hero because he brought Nick Benino here.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh hero hero status for uh Brandon Sutter.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_02: He's related to a great hockey player.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he to me he's a bum because he like you said, he was you know, he he this the penguins never matched what they had with Stahl until they until they had that HPK line, and he could never fill that void.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_01: So unfortunate for him, but it just never worked out.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_01: I will not have good fond memories of that guy, I don't think.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um how about Jim Rutherford sticking with the penguins theme here?
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_02: We'll finish up with the penguins here.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Reason for hero, he um he traded um, let's see, traded for Nick Benino, Phil Kessel, Trevor Daly, Carl Haglin.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_02: He won two Stanley Cups with the Penguins.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's his hero.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Reason for bum.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_02: He traded away Caspery Kapanen, and then I think he got him back too.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_02: He traded away Matt Murray, he lost Benino, traded away Haglin, then lost his temper and quit the Penguins on the spur of the moment, leaving them without a GM.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_02: So um I don't know.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_02: I gave him hero status because he definitely won two Stanley Cups in that HBK line is probably one of the legendary lines in hockey, if not the Pittsburgh Penguins.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, would you still give him hero status even though the way he left?
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, definitely.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he he, you know, you again anybody, any DM's gonna have their good moves and their bad moves.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't here long enough to see if you know if he would if he could eventually turn the the bad moves into good moves.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but winning the two stealing cups, it didn't it didn't matter after that.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_01: My favorite movies, he just kept trading for Casperi Kapan.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_02: He loved him some Casperi-Kapanan.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_02: And uh last but certainly not least, um, we're gonna finish up with Eddie DeBartolo Sr., not junior.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason for here is he owned the Penguins in the lean years and was smart enough to sign Mario Lemieux.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um D'Bartolo said this about the 49ers.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um he tried to run the 49ers like a family rather than a business.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_02: I viewed the players myself really basically as a partnership.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Our goal was to win the Super Bowl every year, and we had to do that together.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think he kind of ran the Penguins the same way.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um reason for Bum was he had to sell the team in 1991 because of the real estate collapse, and that was due to the housing market, if you remember Black Monday in October of '87.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_02: There was a big recession.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_02: So it really wasn't his fault, and that kind of killed the Penguins because you know he then he had to sell it to the guy who really is a bum.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't even bother on the list because this isn't even debatable.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_02: Howard Baldwin.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so the final verdict, I think he's a hero.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_02: He held the pens together through the lean years.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_02: He also created Century 3 Mall.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_02: You can't argue with that.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that was that was great way back in the 80s.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I like Eddie DeBarlow Sr.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_02: He the Penguins wouldn't be here without him.
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um the Penguins aren't own almost here because of Howard Baldwin, but um uh what's you, Tim?
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_02: Eddie Barlow Sr.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: A a hero or bum?
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I'd say hero, and Century 3 Mall had not one but two arcades.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_01: One on the first floor, one on the third floor.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's hero status.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that alone is hero status to me when I was when I was a kid.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you for listening, and hopefully you won't rate our podcast as a bum status, only as hero.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely not meh, but um, thanks for listening and check us out on all the usual uh podcast sources, and um, we'll catch you next time.