Latest / Outdoor Journal Radio: The Podcast / Episode 243: Fertile Grass Carp in Ontario? How Worried Should We Be...

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Episode 243: Fertile Grass Carp in Ontario? How Worried Should We Be... · Outdoor Journal Radio: The Podcast

• 0:22
  SPEAKER_05: This episode of Outdoor Journal Radio is brought to you in part by the Invasive Species Center, protecting Canada's land and water from invasive species.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_05: Freedom Cruise Canada, rent the boat, own the memories, and JMB Cycle a Marine, your home for all things power sports, boats, and equipment.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_05: And now, another exciting episode in the adventures of Outdoor Journal Radio.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yes, everybody.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_05: What are you gesturing at?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Don't confuse yourself.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: You got an old script.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is it script?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_05: No, yeah.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_05: I was looking at something in particular, though.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: I thought you were gonna get all confused and introduced last week's show.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_05: No.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_05: Besides, why are you looking over my shoulder?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: You should.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't look into your should be in the garbage.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_05: I don't look into that phone.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_05: I don't see what you got going on there.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, ladies.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_05: See what I mean?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_05: Hello, ladies and gentlemen, as well.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Good one.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_05: Good one.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_05: Uh welcome to the program.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_05: Um we finally may have some answers for you today.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_05: Over the last several months, uh, there's been all kinds of speculation about uh the invasion.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_05: Come on now.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_05: The grass cart.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_05: Uh as to who saw, who, where, how many, uh, how, and all kinds of stuff.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and we've been trying to get somebody on from DFO to give us the goods on it.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_05: We finally got uh her today.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_05: She'll be joining us in a few moments.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Trisha.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_05: You know I'm gonna I screwed up last time uh you were on, Trisha, so don't expect anything different this time.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Tugaday.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, my close?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_05: Tugade.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_05: But isn't it Tugaday is kind of nice?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_05: It's got a bit of a role.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's very, very quick, yes.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: I like Tugaday.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_05: Tugade.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_05: Trisha Tugade will be joining us.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_05: Uh she is the aquatic biologist uh with DFO uh on Canada's and basic carp program uh with DFO.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_05: She's gonna give us the lowdown on exactly where this the where we stand.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_05: The numbers.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_05: She's gonna give us the numbers.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_05: Numbers.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the biggest thing, right?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: We we need to know it's all about numbers.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: If it's uh because we've been hearing more about the odd one or two sneaking hands.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_05: And of course, people like us, too.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, if just uh just enough information to us is enough for us to screw it up, right?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_05: Because we've been saying there's five, there's nine, there's a hundred and forty-eight, God knows how many.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna screw it all up for sure.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_05: Not that we would embellish stories purposely.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_05: No, no.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_05: I'm saying inadvertently, we are that it's in our nature to sensationalize things.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_05: So maybe it's not as big a deal.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe it's not as big a deal as we're making it.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_05: How's that?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_05: Trisha will help us out.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_05: Can't wait to hear what's coming up.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_05: Me neither.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, what's happening?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_05: Uh shop.fish and canada.com.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know where this episode is going to air on the timeline.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_05: It's gonna air immediately, I think.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, is it like a week from now in real life?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_05: Well, then I can say that there's some exciting things coming down the pipeline.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_05: Stay tuned.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_05: Stay tuned.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, listener feedback, Mr.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_05: Bellman.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: In response to our conversation about using frogs as bait back uh not too long ago, we were talking about our history of using frogs, and we talked about the migration of frogs that I encountered for walleye fishing at night, et cetera, et cetera.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, at Todd Cohat via YouTube says, I have to admit you made me a little teary-eyed today, boys.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I hope that's good.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a lot of memories came flooding back.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's good.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: I spent countless hours as a kid fishing riverbanks and as an adult.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'd always go uh way further than I planned because I just had to see what was around the next bed.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: How true is that?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Where I that's so true.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so true.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Where I lived, it was the walleye run in the spring and the smallies all summer.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I caught my biggest largemouth ever fishing from a riprap shoreline.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I taught my kids to fish on the banks of a flooded quarry full of sunfish and rock bass.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: I remember that in Aponye.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: We did that Rockcliffe quarry quarry, used to fish and swim there.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I still fish from the riverbanks and trout pond shorelines here in BC, but it isn't quite the same uh somehow.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you want to talk frogs.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: I remember camping every summer in Bancroft, catching leopard frogs and selling selling them to the adult anglers that immediately and then immediately spending the money at the campground store for candy and pop.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: That is awesome.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Great times.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for bringing back uh thanks for bringing that all back to me today.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's cool.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Selling the leopard frogs to anglers and then buying goodies.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's smart.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: That is the smart kid right there.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I wish I could remember the name.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_05: There was a great live bait shop uh in Port Perry, Ontario.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um my God, just before you.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_05: Just as you're coming into town today.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_05: Um from the south?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_05: Going like going north, going straight north into town.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_05: Simcoe street there.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_05: Just just at the lights there, yeah, yeah.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_05: That general area, there used to be this great tackle and bait shop.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_05: Really?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_05: And their claim the fame is their frog assortment and and uh collection that they would sell.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_05: Really?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_05: And they had these.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_05: I think I mentioned it to you before.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_05: Back then, uh bait places used to take old refrigerators and they would sink them in the ground on their backs.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_05: Take the doors off, sink them on the ground, on their backs, and remove, you know, all shelves and stuff.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I'm going back to the old refrigerators that didn't have a whole lot of little nooks and crannies, right?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and basically they have a big um tub that was well insulated to keep cold in it, right?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_05: And so they would use it for their bait, mostly minnows.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_05: But this place, if anybody out there is from my era and you know the place I'm talking about, and you have a name, let me know.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_05: Because it's killing me right now.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_05: But it was like it's not, but it was like Tommy's or Bobby's or something.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_05: Anyways, they had these refrigerators sunk in the ground with screen doors on them.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_05: That's how you access them, full of frogs, and they would have leopard frogs, they would have these brown frogs, they'd have these.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, they had every type of frog you can imagine for sale.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_05: And as kids, you know, we we we weren't buying for the most part because we were catching our own.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_05: But I remember talking to the owner, you know, on a regular basis as a kid, and they would always be trying to um to um get kids to contribute to the to the catch some frogs.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, catch some frogs, kids, and I'll give you a nickel, you know, that kind of stuff.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_05: So I wouldn't be surprised if that's how they got most of their inventory, actually, is from the local kids.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_05: Why wouldn't you?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Why wouldn't you?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: If it was perfectly legal back then, why not, right?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_05: And boy, were they good for bait, though.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Look at that little sucker up there.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's like that.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's a leopard frog.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_05: Food, probably the most prevalent food that shallow water fish will ever encounter, right?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good, probably high protein, a nice, easy meal, like a quick meal with lots of food uh base to it, yeah.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And as a matter of fact, our news story's got a little bit of frog news in it, too.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that's uh coming up today.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: But um, thanks for that.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: That was good.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I was actually, I'm glad we brought back good memories, and that was a good story.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_05: We're uh conservation corner.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_05: We're not going to dwell into this other than to tell you that coming up in a couple of minutes, uh, will be a DFO official that will be able to shed some light on the fish that have been captured, the uh grass carp that have been captured to date, and hopefully give us uh an outlook.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe look in a crystal ball, tell us where where this is headed.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_05: And um I can't wait.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_05: And basically shed some light on the program.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, for sure.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_05: So we will bypass that.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_05: Uh in the news, you mentioned in the news brought to you by J and B Cycle and Marine, Ontario's largest Prince Crab Mercury boat motor trailer packaging facility.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: I like that even better.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_05: And uh now, although they haven't officially announced it, I will do it for them.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_05: They are working on uh programs where you can buy these wonderful products online and they will ship them to you.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_05: No, they will deliver them to you.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_05: I won't say they'll ship them to you, they will deliver them to you.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_05: Doesn't matter where you are.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_05: That's what the Rob says.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: And we have him coming on the show very soon, so you'll hear right from him.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: Right from the horse's mouth.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_03: How that's gonna work.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to hear him from the last time you guys talked about this with me.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, okay, this is gonna be interesting.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: All right, what's the story, buddy?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: What's the news?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: The story is uh I just read this the other day on uh yesterday on um on a news feed sort of thing.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Most used baits of the 2026 Major League Fishing Season revealed.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Frogs.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it's part of it.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's part of it.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: MLF published that the most used baits across the nine scheduled events that they have through the year, including the Red Crest, which is the same as the Bassmasters Classic, kind of like the accumulation of the end-all tournament, and the heavy hitters, which is a it's a special event where they take the biggest fish from each event, and they kind of bring those guys, whoever caught the biggest fish from each event throughout the year and bring them together for this big fish.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a really interesting concept.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like that too.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um but so they have 11 uh different fisheries from different fisheries that they've worked this from.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And this they just brought in uh a little uh surmization of the baits.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: And number six, we'll go from six down to one.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Number six was frogs, was artificial frogs.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was uh obviously they're still throwing a lot of frogs.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Why not?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, why wouldn't you so well in the shallows?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh probably in the deep too, but I mean they're using mostly these weedless frogs that are uh in smung.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can fish the most nasty water with a frog.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: You can't do it with anything else.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: You just can't.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_05: And still get a hook in the fish.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: You still get a hook in the fish and land them too, because they use the right equipment to use it.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: So number five is not a bait, but it's uh an idea.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's a rig.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's called the Carolina rig.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think we all know about the Carolina rigs, you know, that's how they're putting their favorite plastics on the Carolina rigs.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Number four was Ned Rigs.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I could see that because a Ned Rig is a great all-rounder, you know, smallmouth, largemouth, spotted bass, which they fish for all three of those in those tournaments.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: So uh number three was crankbaits.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_05: People obviously surprise us three.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: You thought it was higher or lower?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_05: Higher.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_05: I'd have put it higher, and I'd have put number one down to three.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_05: That would have been my switcheroo.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: But you gotta remember these guys are they're they're shallow water crazy.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just a big sh.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: More we'll we'll go through these baits, then we can kind of compare it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Number two was the jig head minnow, which is uh one of the latest craze, not the latest crazy, the latest crazy is an urchin, which is not even on this thing.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_05: Is there why is that not on?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: But because it didn't show, it didn't wow.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't, you know, they're the talk and and this and that and the other, but it's not there yet.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the jig head minnow still was number two, and that's a lot to do with forward facing sonar, too, right?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: The jig head minnow is like the number one with forward facing for the for the American guys out there.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, the bladed jig or chatterbait.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_05: I'm surprised.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Bladed jig or chatterbait?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh spinnerbait isn't even on that.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: No, you know what I mean?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: So the bladed jig is kind of taking the spinnerbait and throwing it out and out and you know, get out of the way and all that.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_05: All right, let's talk about each one.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_05: And let's start from the top.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_05: Let's start from the top and go back.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_05: I think a few episodes ago, we just lightly touched on the chatterbait phenomenon that it is, and we said basically it's a jig.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_05: It's a jig head that we've been throwing for vertical presentations for a thousand years, dropping it straight down in the humong, and now we attach a little piece of metal to it and we swim it horizontally.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_05: I cannot, for the life of me, because the it's not a brand new bait, by the way.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, that's a little chatter bait.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_05: It's been around since the beginning of time.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a very long time.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_05: And it was not heavily used because, if I remember correctly, once again, I could be wrong, it was not a very popular bait in terms of catching fish.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember that.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_05: And they were always the sort of gimmicky, low end, uh not on the end uh of the of the gondolas, the shelves.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_05: They they you know, it'd always be in a bin somewhere, and it was like$3.99.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I had no idea it was old.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: I thought this just came along with that.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: You see how many different like Z-Man, the company itself, how many different models they have?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you look at that OG, the original.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: It and it and then there's I think there was something else before that.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody else put one out at another company.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: I put one out before that.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's been around a long time.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_05: Gives you an idea how old it is.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, but it never caught on, it was always there.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I always compared it in terms of popularity.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_05: And um to me, you know, if it sells, it's popular and it gets used and catches fish.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_05: If it doesn't sell very well, it's not very popular.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_05: And chances are if it's not very popular, it's not being used, therefore, it won't be catching a lot of fish.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_05: And I put that one, the chatterbait, in the same box as the what I call the tourist worm.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_05: The company was called cream, and it was a lifelike worm, looked, you know, it was brown in color, about the same length as a as a dew worm, and it had three embedded single hooks in it.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_05: That's right.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_05: Remember?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_05: Because I thought that was a great bait, but nobody bought it, and therefore, it wasn't catching a whole lot of fish.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_05: So at the end of each season, you'd see them in the clear out bins, you know, buy two of this, buy two tourist worms and get one chatterbait free of charge, you know.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_05: So when this first started rearing its head again, which was about I'm gonna say three, four years ago, that really chatterbait started all of a sudden.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe a little longer, but yeah, maybe five, but it was post-pandemic.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_05: It wasn't pre-pandemic.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_05: Pre-pandemic, there was very little in the news about chatterbaites.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, that's a good question.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have to look into that one, but you don't I don't no, I don't because it's uh I think it's uh I'm talking about as a mainstream bait, it was post-pandemic.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_05: Which which means what, six years ago?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_05: Anyways.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_05: So I was a little bit shocked when all of a sudden it became the big deal again.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_05: Because uh I wondered, okay, it wasn't selling through two previous cycles because everything is cyclical in this business, right?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it wasn't selling and now all of a sudden it's catching fish, which means it's selling, people are buying it.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_05: Is that what happened?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_05: Or is it the fact that the pros back in the cycles that I'm talking about?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_05: So my the cycles I'm talking about, the pros would have been the Roland Martins, the Bill Dances uh uh of the world that were fishing tournaments, Alvinder was fishing tournaments, and they weren't using chatterbaits, they were using worms, and they were using and they were using spitterbaits, right?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_05: And therefore it wasn't given a chance, right?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_05: But now all of a sudden, somehow it got into that cycle of pros now in in what 2026, and now it's a big deal.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_05: It's number one, it's number two it's number one, it's not just a deal, it's number one.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_05: I couldn't give them away.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_05: I I could honest to God, it was like you buy two of those and we'll throw this in free.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what to say.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't know what to say either because it like honestly, I used to be a spinnerbait guy.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even bring my spinnerbait box out anymore.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: I throw chatterbait all the time.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_05: When was the last time you threw a spinnerbait?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I did throw, I throw it every now and then, but it's a different one.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: There'll be a little Colorado, like a finesse thing.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: It won't be the double willow leaf uh that I used to throw all the time.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the the chatterbait, between a chatter and a crankbait for me are my two number one all-round fast baits.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And chatterbait would be my go-to for everything because it's more weedless, et cetera, et cetera.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: But thing catches largemouth, smallmouth, walleye, pike, musky.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: It catches every fish out there, you know what I mean?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, and it's so easy to use.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I think maybe one of the biggest things for this popularity, now we'll get a little bit deeper into here, but the this Z-Man company, they worked with a company called Evergreen, and they came out with um the jackhammer.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's this is a 25, now it's 30 bucks for a chatterbait.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it was$25 when it first came out.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking, who the hell?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I gotta buy one or two.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna try it, but what the hell?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And there is something about that bait.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: What I figured out, what it does, it does it runs different than a regular chatterbait.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: It does this boom, boom, it kicks out all the time because the blade's hitting the head.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it does it every now and then.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that some bitch catches a lot of fish.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: So these guys are all, I'll guarantee you, they're all throwing, even if they're sponsored by somebody else.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're throwing a jackhammer.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: I guarantee it.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're that's the number one.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that jackhammer is a chatterbait or a bladed jig.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So all of a sudden, it makes the whole thing, the whole, you know, uh line of all the chatterbaits popular, sort of thing.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it brings popularity back to that.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a feeling that's what's making a lot of noise in the in the world of popularity is the jackhammer.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: But and then it feeds down to you know the lower price models.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: They have all kinds of different models now.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Z-Man themselves have a ton of them, so but the original still works, too.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's it's it's I think that's the the main thing is that this new one came out and it brought huge popularity back to the the whole bait in general, I think.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: And what I found interesting too, just about the just back to the list in general, only two of these are really live scope focused.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like you the NED and the jig head minnow, you can see that's the forward-facing kind of cherry picking.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: The other ones are old school, like you and even the NED is not much like honestly, it's not it's basically a finesse jig, really.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that that jig head minnow is the one, and that's the only reason that became popular again, is because of the of live scope and forward facing.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: For sure, somebody got onto it in the tournaments, and all of a sudden, oh my god, boom, boom, boom.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then if in this tournament news, it spreads all over the nation.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now all of a sudden you can't buy a sock amata shadow for the life of you, sort of thing.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh yeah, it's funny how it works.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: But and there's gonna be something in another five years, there'll be something new on there.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe an oldie that'll come back, you never know, right?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_05: See, I I I'm just trying to figure this thing through here.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Urchins might be up there, by the way, in another five years, and maybe it'll get that much pop more popular, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_05: They might be.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_05: They might be.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_05: I'm just I'm going back.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_05: I'm going back to spinnerbaits when I re because I was I was in the middle of that phenomenon when it wasn't and then it was.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I mean?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_05: And it was definitely initiated by this fraternity, the professional bass angler.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Roland Martin's big bass spinnerbait.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, he met Ola Spinnerbait himself like that.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Jimmy Houston.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_05: He had uh so in terms of in terms of marketing, a bait to the general public, I question whether this information has any value to the general consumer.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_05: I'm talking to a person who's totally removed from professional bass angling.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: It would be a trickle effect.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: It would be a trickle effect.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because it'd be a guy like me and you that reads this thing and says, uh, oh my God, you know, hey, did you know, hey, uh buddy, there well, you should try a chatterbait out there.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: It could be like something like as easy as a word of mouth with that.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're right.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: It is, it's word of mouth for sure.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're right, most people don't even look at this kind of news.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, how many people that are watching this had had that come on your news feed?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Probably hardly any, right?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: So unless we're watching bass tournaments all the time, so that you know, kind of I hearken back to the uh Balsawood hard bait phenomenon of the 60s.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_05: No, I'm going I'm going Raplo.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_05: Oh Rapilo, yeah.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_05: The finished bait.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um from Raplo.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_05: There was a point in the mid-70s, probably to the early 80s, up to 81, 82, maybe 83, where more fish in North America were being caught on Rappa La Lures than all other fish baits combined.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm talking all other fish baits combined.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_05: And so on the surface, when you can make that claim.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: Consumers has got to go, wow, that has got to be, that has got to be the best bait on the market.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_05: And if I don't have one, I'm an idiot and I better go get me one.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_05: But that was their marketing ploy.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_05: I love that.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_05: And the reason that they could make that claim is because, yeah, more fish were being caught on wrap la lures because more wrapplures were being used every day than any other, than all other baits combined.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_05: And then of course the Prad Coast came into effect, and then you know, the cotton cordells, and I I go on and on and on, and they eventually found out that yeah, you know what those days are over.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_05: You're not going to be the most popular bait anymore because we're we're gonna dominate that category and eventually the end.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm saying that sometimes it's not, and probably most of the times, and maybe this bladed jig phenomenon is is a case in point.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_05: It's not about the bait itself.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_05: It's not about the fact that this bait catches more fish than all other baits.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes it's just the hype, and the hype develops a following, and a following develops fish.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: But it but in this case, it's these guys are fishing for 100k every time.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_05: They never used to catch fish because they weren't being used before.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: My point is they're using this thing and they're winning.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, obviously, with this being coming up as number one because of the popularity of how many fish you caught, this and that, and the other, there's there's something to it, right?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: So they're they're using it.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: They would not be throwing a chatterbait if it wasn't catching them fish.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Or it wouldn't be on this list.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Urchins, they caught fish on the urchins, but it's not even on this list.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_05: So plastic worms have completely fallen off the face of the world.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_05: That was surprising.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Carolina rig.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, most guys Carolina rig a worm.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's a rig.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's a rig.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I know, but they not necessarily a worm.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: But most the most popular baits used by the by the U.S.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: are a worm or a lizard.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_05: Uh creatures.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Creatures aren't as popular as worms still yet.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's good, uh it's a good idea, but it's not as popular as a worm.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_05: But the weedless Texas rig worm is nowhere to be found.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yet at one point, how often do you and I throw it?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_05: I don't even know.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_05: Do we have any?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_05: We might.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: No shit.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's crazy.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_05: Uh there was a time when if you didn't have, I don't know, a hundred pounds worth of plastic worms on the bottom.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Remember the when we were rice lake fishing, that six-inch culprit?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Can I just share a quick story?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_05: Can I share a quick story with you?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_05: And I've I don't I know we don't have a whole lot of time.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_05: We've got a great guest coming up.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_05: But um, speaking about that, so we were Reno and I were in a tournament on Rice Lake.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_05: Um I don't remember if it was pre-80s, eighties, mid-80s, somewhere in that era.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_05: And word got out that Al Linder and Ted Capra Capra were going to be in the event as well.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_05: They were coming up from Minnesota to come into the event.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_05: So it was it was kind of exciting.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_05: And back then, you know, we had fields of 150 boats was every weekend.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_05: Yep.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_05: And waiting lists.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_05: Anyways, here we all are on Rice Lake, and all the big Canadian names were there, and we'd all been pounding that water for like weeks.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_05: And word was that Al and uh Ted were coming up on the Thursday before the weekend event.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_05: So, in other words, they were not really they weren't pre-fishing uh because Friday was off limits, right?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_05: Friday they were close.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_05: So basically, they what we heard was that they weren't even gonna pre-fish it.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_05: So we said, what what's are you kidding?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_05: We're gonna smoke you guys.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_05: How can you not pre-fish it?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_05: Especially Rice Lake.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_05: You know how temperamental those weed edges are.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_05: If they're if they're here today in this weed bed, well, they might be over there tomorrow.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_05: So, anyways, the the other 149 boats pounded Rice Lake for two weeks.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, we pounded it.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_05: Every fish in that lake had been caught in the previous two weeks, right?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_05: So come tournament day, as usual, a cold front moves through.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_05: It changes everything.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_05: We'd had really nice stable weather the week before.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_05: Anyways, a cold front moves through, and we are struggling.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_05: We are struggling first three, four hours.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_05: But I mean, places where you should fill the boat up just aren't producing.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_05: And except for one boat.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_05: This was this fancy boat from the US with these two big hotshot Americans, and they were coming into our water, weed beds that that we claimed to be ours.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_05: We knew every little nook and cranny in that weed bed where the fish should be.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_05: They'd come in behind us on those same weed beds, and they were smoking fish.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_05: And this happened for two days.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_05: And then the big secret came out on the Sunday night was that they were using culprit worms.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Culprit, right?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, culprit brown, natural culprit worms.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_05: And we were throwing all the big purple flappy-tailed wigglywogs and warts and chartreuse eyes and everything else.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_05: And they completely cleaned everybody's clock with this culprit.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_05: We had never heard of a culprit worm before.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_05: And that's how, and so what happened.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_05: The reason I tell the story, because from that day forward, culprit worms were like, I don't know.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: You guys sold them, right?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_05: It was a commodity, it was like gold.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_05: And it wasn't a question of how much, but how many you got.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_05: And the rush, the gold rush started, and it happened.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_05: It went on for about five years.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_05: And it was all because of that one incident where where whether they did catch them all on culprit worms or not, I really don't know.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you wouldn't know.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_05: But from what I saw at least twice during that event, they literally would come up behind us and jump on the bow of the boat, make a cast, boom.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_05: The other guy made a cast, boom, two fish in.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you very much.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_05: And we just spent an hour throwing our stuff in there.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_05: So that's why we said, Oh, well, obviously, now we know what it was.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_05: We didn't have that worm.
• 29:01
  unknown: Yeah.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's how nowadays the good thing about this is that there's cameras on every boat.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you see, they can't bullshit this, right?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's a a camera, they're all filmed every time, so they know, yeah, he can't be lying about a chatterbait.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_05: That's I'd be interested in know how they came up with this.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_05: Did they did they review tapes?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Or did they talk to the guys, probably, I would think.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm I don't know.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good, yeah, good question.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_05: Anyways, I I'm that's the one I'm really surprised at is the was the uh it's very quickly.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: This it's the one bait that has taken over or changed my fishing almost completely as a chatterbait.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like I never I'm not a shallow water guy to begin with, and that and but when I do it now, well, I tell you what, when I'm going into the weed bed, I'm throwing a chatter right off the hop.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_05: See?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_05: And now you just influence another hundred people.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_05: First thing they're gonna do, if Peter Bowman is using a chatterbait, uh I gotta get me one.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_05: And you're gonna get one.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_05: And some of you will catch fish with it.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_05: That's right, and some of you will not.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: The ones that are buying the jackhammer will catch fish.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, here we go.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: By the way, by the way, are you getting some residual?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then when they lose that$30 jackhammer, they're gonna give me shit forever.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: You asshole.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Fed question of the week, Mr.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Ball.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Woo-hoo, bruh.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Submitted by Simon Brigham via email.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a uh non, right?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: A non-contender.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Non, an NC, non-contender.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's another YouTube.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: We had that, and that was Nick.
• 30:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Nick holding that on uh Nagagami, was it?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_04: Oh the little guy that's a very tiny fish, yeah.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: We put up uh four small little fishies and uh was new to me.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Have you?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right here.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: There it is, right there.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_04: It's a good looking man right there.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's the fish.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Nick, we're looking at the fish, bud.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: The fish.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_04: It's a good looking fish, too.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_04: Fish.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: God like the way you hook him up there.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh have you ever caught something and had no clue what it was, or being sure it was one species only to find out it was something else?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: I had one recently last year shooting that no one's seen yet.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: But the saw guy.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: The saw guy.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'm almost so when we caught it, I thought I had a blue walleye that was totally beat up and weird looking, and we kind of talked about it on air.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: I always check when I'm fishing, because I used to uh work in a place that had a lot of sager.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: We don't have a lot down here.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: But the main teller, like besides if if they're not super colored up in like that camo pattern, is the spot on the tail.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: The sagar don't have it, and the walleye have the white strip on the tail.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: This fish had a strip on the tail, so as soon as I saw the white, I was like, okay, it's a walleye.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I started talking about how it's a walleye.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: But in the pictures afterwards, you notice the the cheek plate is all scaly, which is kind of weird.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: And if when I looked at the tail, I noticed the spot was maybe about half as big as it is on a normal walleye.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm pretty sure I caught a saw guy.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, which I had I'm sure I've caught them before, but I had never I I wouldn't be able to recognize one right now.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you put it in front of me, I'd say, Wow, what is that?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's one or the other.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say a saw guy.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it just looked like a super ugly walleye, but yeah, yeah.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Beat up, whatever.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: I did uh oh, go ahead.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_05: I once mistook a uh splake for a speck.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote that down, splake.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, for a spectrum.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_05: I once uh mistook uh and it was about That's an easy one to do it was about an eight-pounder.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_05: And the real travesty in the whole thing is had we known it was confirmed a confirmed speck, that fish would have gone back in the water.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_05: But because everybody in the group agreed that it was the biggest split they had ever seen, and we killed it and consumed it.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I remember you telling me that's it.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_05: And it wasn't until afterwards when the COs uh came into camp um and we showed them the remains, yeah.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_05: The carcasses, they said, Oh my god, that's a that might be the biggest spec we've had on record this year.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: Your jaws all dropped.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: Oh and the only way to tell on that was the tail.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: Is that right?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_05: But it wasn't completely square, right?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_05: So us it had a little bit of a little indent, right?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_05: Indent.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_05: And and and when they showed it, like they said, no, let's get straight.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_05: And and we me, I said, no, guys, I know a spec.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_05: That it that's not flat, that's not straight.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_05: Look, it's in here a little bit.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, No, that's that's the only way that you can like a biologist, let's say, can tell, or is there other way a visual then the skin also?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_05: It was definitely when they pointed out some of the markings on the fish itself.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_05: Definitely then because it it became a speck.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because a splake does have kind of lake trout spots, doesn't it?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: On it's ish lake trout is spot.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's something a little different.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: The shape of the spots, and you don't get the perfectly round circles like you do in a brook.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_05: If you have them side by side, we'd all be able to identify and say, oh, that's that and that's that.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_05: But if you only have splake, yeah, that's it's a tough one.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'd have a I bet you I'd get it wrong every time, especially if they were getting close, like very close to spawning colors.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because splakes do that same thing, right?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sure they do.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: And they take on that brook trout coloring, and I I guarantee I pretty much guarantee I'd get 10 out of 10 wrong.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_05: But the I'll bet you big telltale, haha, give me a drum thing.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you, is the tail.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_05: It's forked, it's definitely forked on a splake.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_05: And we all had saw a little fork here in this tail, but it wasn't.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_05: It was flat.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_05: But anyways, that was my little uh that's the only one I can think of where it was I was totally it's hard to remember.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: We've caught so many fish in our lives, right?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I did one in uh when I was fishing on um Pod Ash Lake with Keith Beasley the other time.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: We we one of the shoots we did there, and I caught what I thought was a chub.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: It looked like a sucker or a chub, and it ended up being a fall fish, which I had never heard of before in my life.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: So a fall F-A-L-L fall fish.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I had never heard of that before, and it bit a crankbait.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: It literally bit a crankbait, and it was not big, it was only that big.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was one of those things that I said, that's a chub, what it was a giant chub, man.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: What the heck?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Everything is gonna eat that, and had no idea even the species existed.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_05: So Nick, didn't we on um Isnagi?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, or was it Dean?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_05: One of you two oh the sucker.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I thought I had caught a white fish because we see them everywhere.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: So as soon as I hooked it, I saw it come up and I was like, oh my god, we got a whitey, and I was talking about how Angie and Pete have seen these fish up here all the time, but they never catch them.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: This is so amazing.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: And then I pick it up out of the water, I'm like, oh god, just a big sucker.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so disappointed.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't air that.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: We should air that is shit today.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, we gotta put that as a YouTube uh short.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: On camera hilarious because I saw it in the water and I knew I was like, oh no, but I just did this whole on camera, so like I held it up scale and was like pretending like it was really like.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: I gotta see that.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's friggin' awesome.
• 36:33
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• 36:36
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• 36:40
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• 36:48
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• 37:01
  SPEAKER_05: Alrighty, here we go.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_05: Let's get the final word on the on the issue.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_05: Uh we're talking uh today with um finally, it seems like months since we've had an expert on uh to talk to us about the carp situation.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_05: Uh joining us now is uh Trisha uh Tugade Tugade.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_05: Tugade.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_05: Tugade.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's Tugade Day last time.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_05: Tugade.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_05: All right, we got it.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Aquatic Biologist with uh Canada's Emacy Carp program at DFO.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome to the program once again.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_05: How are you?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Good, how are you guys?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for having me on again.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_05: Well, we're doing good and you're welcome.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_05: We've been saying when are we gonna get her back on?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_05: We gotta find out what's going on.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_05: We're hearing all kinds of stories about they did.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_05: They didn't.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we didn't we heard so much, so little for a long time, and then all of a sudden we're starting to hear stories again, right?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_05: Now, all of a sudden, so uh um let's deal with one thing at a time.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_05: Uh yes.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_05: So you now are in possession of two grass carp that were caught in uh the Welland River in Ontario, and they are both fertile.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_05: Is that correct?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, that's right.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: So the first one was captured in July uh on the 7th, and because it was uh fertile or diploid, we actually stood up our response operations and deployed strike teams in the area, and that's why we caught the second one on the 9th, and which was also fertile and diploid, unfortunately.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so we continued to stand up our operations and we sent crews in for another week of very targeted sampling, and we didn't find anything else.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, that's correct.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Two well-end fish this year.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Were you shocked that these were fertile diploid fish?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or were you or you just say, Oh, it's gonna happen?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Or uh I think it's always surprising, right?
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because we catch them in such low numbers here in Canadian tributaries.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's always some excitement and surprise when one is captured.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: The Welland is like those captures were the first time we pulled fish from the Welland, so that there's that as well.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so that that adds to the surprise.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_05: So let's set the record straight because when you're not on the program, there's all kinds of rhetoric going on about who caught what and where and how many.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_05: What's the tally?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_05: Can you give us a tally to date of the number of grass carp that we have physical evidence of in Canada and how many of those are fertile?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um since 2012, when our program first began, 39 grass carp have been captured in hand and processed in our lab by our program.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: And of that split, it's 24 that were sterile or triploid, and then um 13 were diploid or fertile, and then two were unknown because they were found dead onshore.
• 40:07
  unknown: Okay.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, that's a I'm trying to process that.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_05: Is that an alarming number?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_05: Is that what you're thinking?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I'm just comparing fertile, non-fertile.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, I guess as long as the numbers are are low, it's not an issue.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_05: But if we start using a multiplication factor, and I'm sure you guys have done this, I'm sure you've done the testing.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_05: Uh you you've built the model and said, okay, so based on this area, here's our findings.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_05: Now let's replicate that across the broad scale of potential waterways that are infected with these fish.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_05: And then all of a sudden, that two-thirds, one-third split is pretty alarming.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_05: Now you've got a very large population of grass carp that are reproducing in our waters, or at least that's the way I see it.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's be cautious in saying that there's a population here.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: We we don't consider grass carp established uh like having an established population in Canadian waters.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it could be alarming looking at you know 39 fish to date, but we are looking in tributaries that we know are really suitable and um where we're most likely to find grass curbs.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: So before we start extrapolating to all the Great Lakes, a lot of our in early detection and surveillance is informed by what are the best tributaries to look in.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where we've been where we have pulled captures or where there have been reports.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Have you found of your fertile fish?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if they can be infertile versus fertile, have you found any females that were fertile?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we have had fertile females that had eggs, unfortunately.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not the brightest person in the world, but if you put a male, fertile male and a fertile female in an area of the same species.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna I'm gonna guess there could be some hanky panky going on.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, I just guess call me crazy, but uh I mean the possibilities are there.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: The possibilities are there, but in order to say an established population, we have to keep building that full picture, right?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: And grab the different pieces of the puzzle and continue building the evidence for okay, is there an established population?
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Which we need, you know, continued detections and all of and repeated captures and the timing and everything as well.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_05: But but I would think that short of I don't know, finding uh, and I don't even know how these things uh distribute um uh like is it they scatter their eggs, do they uh concentrate their like do we know we know all this stuff?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_05: How how we we know that?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so I'm assuming you're also looking into that part of it to see if you can find any eggs that are uh gives us if okay.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh there's a lot we don't know about grass curb biology and a lot that we do know.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so we know that grass curp, in order to trigger spawning, they like high flow events.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: They like to, so when it rains and the water starts to like that flow comes up, then grass crop like to go into the tributaries and then they like to release their eggs because their eggs need to be suspended suspended and float in the water column and actually stay in suspension all the way till hatching.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: So we know that about them.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then with our larval program that look for eggs and larval fish, um, so we we try to target those high flow events in these tributaries that we we know are suitable.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we have had you know DNA detections in our larval samples, but again, it's kind of like putting the pieces of the puzzle together.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: We might have evidence of DNA in those samples, but we don't know how many fish or where, when, and whether they've left, you know.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: What about uh so these carp these uh grass carp get awful big?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: We know that, physically big.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just say if it was a big female, if the females get bigger, whatever, she's full of eggs.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: We always hear about the survival rate of walleye bass, whatever.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: They got 300,000 eggs in them, but only one or two survived to a year old or two.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the same thing with grass carp, or are they uh able to have bigger numbers at the at the end result?
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's a good question.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: We know that yes, grass scarp can produce lots of eggs, and all of the risk assessment and research shows that um they can survive and overwinter in Canadian waters, but I I don't have the exact numbers about what that conversion rate would be in Canadian waters since we don't have the population here.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_05: I would I would think the uh the spring thaw would create those conditions that you alluded to um perfectly for them, right?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_05: Where you've got water's flowing, it's high, and and and that would be like uh uh you know dinging the dinner bell to a hungry uh you know what I mean?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, talk about the perfect storm for reproduct reproduction would be our spring thaw.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_05: Anywhere along the north shore of of Lake Ontario, um it's nasty flow and water, so we'd be ideal, right?
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: We try to get out there for our early detection and our in our larval sampling as well.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're exactly right during that late spring when temperatures start to fall, and it's the water temperature comes up, and then all of them melt with the flow and the rain.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is when we try to target our sampling.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_05: The origins of this fish I'm assuming would be tropical or subtropical climates, where it would originate from.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: They actually originate from Asia.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: So um I don't know if it's tropical per se, but they need a water temperature from 18 to 22 deg 22 degrees along with that high flow event to trigger spawning.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it can't be frigid cold, but it doesn't actually have to be super hot as well.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_05: Cause I was gonna say the only benefit of here that we'd have is cold, right?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: But they're obviously thinking they can get through the winter time too right now.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: So because yeah, that would be a nice defense if we say, ah, they're never gonna survive because they're gonna be dead by spring.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so earlier on you said, well, let's not jump to conclusions, let's not get ahead of ourselves, let's, you know, let's take a deep breath, and which is all cool.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_05: I I agree, I agree.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_05: That's good, good thinking.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_05: But at what point do we start saying, okay, we're now in full uh defense mode?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_05: This is not a matter of lockdown mode because unfortunately that didn't work.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_05: Now we're in total defense mode.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_05: What would that look like?
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_05: What would total defense mode look like?
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's a question we get often.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really good question.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to speculate exactly, and you know, I can't really speak to something that hasn't happened yet.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's because we're still in like that early detection mode, still, right?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I I mean, an established population, I'm sure we would start to say that we've shifted on the invasion curve, but right now we're so low on it in the arrival stage, so it's hard to say exactly what the future might look like.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_05: Would the lack of vegetation in an area that traditionally would have lots of vegetation, would that be kind of step one in detection?
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_05: Or do you even look that are you just looking for physical evidence of the fish itself as opposed to what it leaves behind?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we're trying to look for uh the physical fish in hand.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: And to to we're that's all about our early early detection work and uh deploying those gears to capture adults and doing our larval sampling to look for fish and eggs.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think those impacts of you know really decreasing the amount of vegetation in our wetlands, those are like the long-term impacts that we can expect to see according to like our risk assessments.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's Trisha, I got a question for you.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, now that we have them here, the common carp when it first got here was, I'm assuming, was an invasive species, classed as an invasive species, like a smallmouth bass, right?
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: They were dropped in like that.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: They've become what do you call naturalized or established or whatever.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: What would it take if we can't get rid of grass carp?
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Will they eventually become established and naturalized?
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: Will it be a different thing than invasive?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this might be 50 years down the road, but how does that work with a species?
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I that's a good question as well.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, common carp, I think when people say common carp and grass carp, they think carp carp is carp type of thing.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then yeah, they like to compare the two, but it's important to know that they are such different species.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: So they impose different um impacts to the environment.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: So grass carp will impose completely different negative impacts as an invasive species to the environment.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, eating their voracious eaters, eating up to 40% of their body weight and um their ability to outcompete resources from the population or from the native fish population, right?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: Did that kind of answer your question?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of, but kind of, but no, because like will we will we have to tap out to these bastards if they get in here?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're gonna say, okay, they're here now, and they're not we're not getting rid of them.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: So they're just a fish species that are in our lakes and we're dealing with them.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh I think uh I think we just because well, we're so low on the invasion curve, but should we shift or go into management, uh, I mean, we would still try to minimize the impacts to the the environment and to the our native fish.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: I would hope so.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_05: I think the I think what's uh giving them a shot at survival is the fact that they're vegetarians.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_05: I think if this critter was eating smallmouth bass, walleye, um muski, you know what I mean?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_05: I think there'd be a whole different different panic attack, like us as a whole different battle cry right now, right?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because people aren't equating the vegetation to which is ultimately the same.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_05: To me, no, it's worse.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's far worse.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_05: The fact that the earth consuming uh our green uh uh weeds and plants, etc.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_05: That's that's even worse than if they were consuming uh the fish themselves, but people don't understand that.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_05: I'm just wondering if they were um whatever that's called, it's not carnivores, but if they were uh fish eaters, I wonder if there would be a whole lot more noise out there.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question, right?
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_05: Because I can see the walleye groups and the muskie clubs and the you know what I mean, getting together and and using media to to make some noise.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I probably they they all should be together right now to make it.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_05: Because this is far greater than if if they were just eating uh young walleye, right?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_05: It's a good point.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_05: But I think that's what the problem is, is that they they're consuming something that we don't we know it's important, and and uh I think most uh outdoors people and anglers are in tune with that, much like wetlands for ducks, right?
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_05: Hunters are aware of the fact that that wetlands are are the vital element in duck reproduction, fowl reproduction.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_05: I wonder how many anglers really make that one of those things that's priority in their minds, you know what I mean?
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I have a feeling they don't.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_02: Not very much.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_05: You don't realize what 40% of your body weight consumes every day.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think they get it.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_05: It's huge.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think they get it.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: You raise a really great point, which is why we're talking about it today on this podcast, right?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like that that's exactly what it is, just because it doesn't directly feed on them doesn't mean that it doesn't not impact the important game fish people like to angle for.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: True, yeah.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: Trisha, where are you from?
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: Are you from you're Ontario, right?
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in Ontario, yes.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just say, do you know Rice Lake, for instance, or Lake Skug?
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know these these coartha lakes that are full of weeds, right?
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: Grass carp get into Rice Lake.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: Can they devastate and get rid of every bit of weed in that lake eventually?
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hypothetically, maybe, with high enough numbers.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the thing with the risk assessments and research is that it the Great Lakes look so diverse, or like all of our lakes in Ontario look so diverse and all those ecosystems.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be really extreme in one pocket, and then maybe medium level in another pocket.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, in theory, possibly.
• 53:37
  unknown: Wow.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_05: Do we know?
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_05: Have we narrowed down what their preferences are in terms of vegetation, or are they just non-discriminating when they eat?
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_05: They just anything that's green and alive, they'll eat it.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_05: And the reason I asked that, because I mean, this could play a big role in the final battle if we set this up that way, that if they have a preference for certain type of vegetable vegetables, something like that, milk oil, cabbage, or whatever the case may be, at least then we have a chance to kind of steer them in a certain direction and save habitat.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: Could you imagine if they were if they only ate Eurasian milf oil, which is an invasive weed?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: That'd be awesome.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: Get rid of all that weed, and then we'll kill the fish.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: That'd be awesome.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_05: But is are we that are we uh far enough down the timeline on this issue to know that they prefer A over B in terms of vegetation?
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: So there have been studies that came out, and unfortunately, it shows that they are kind of generalist herbivores.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they will eat all sorts of different types of plant and vegetation, and then even then, I think it's shown to show other types of um food in in whatever is available in the Great Lakes or trips.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_05: No, I I don't want to lessen the fear that this is putting in some of us, but you know, most vegetation is pretty hardy and most vegetation is very adaptable.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_05: I I've gotta hope, at least, if not think, that it would it's gonna be a long battle.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think the victory here is gonna come quick if if this critter gets a foothold and starts reproducing at the alarming numbers that we know they can reproduce.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think it's going to be a quick down and dirty battle and we're done, we're over.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's gonna be a slow progressive because plants are pretty hardy too, right?
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_05: I'm having a a struggle right now with plants and reproduction my crabgrass.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_05: You know, they're there vegetation is pretty hardy.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_05: It it doesn't just give up and die because you just pulled it out of the ground, right?
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_05: So we've got to hope, anyways, that our aquatic vegetation is the same.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's a great point.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe Tricia, you can tell us this.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: If they're eating cabbage, broadleaf cabbage, they eat whatever they eat out of it.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how they eat it, whatever.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is cabbage weed like a tree or a flower where it roots away down deep?
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: And can these fish actually get to the roots or will those will they regrow?
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: I actually am not very specialized in the aquatic plants.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, in terms of um like vegetation in the long term, like uh a lot of the studies do show unfortunately negative impacts, like 20 to 30 years out.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: So they will just continue to eat and impact these pockets of wetlands and vegetation.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: They might be rooting the stuff out, you know, like a like a pig.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: They may be down there and just rooting as much as they can.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I know common carp uh tend to root.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think everything I've read so far on grass carp, I don't think that's the case.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_05: They're like a filter feeder sort of thing, aren't they?
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_05: But it's not, it's not I don't I I don't know.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_05: I that's gonna be a great question when when it finally gets to the point where we say, okay, they're here now, let's watch and see what what they do.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_05: Then obviously we'll learn more.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_05: Is there a possibility?
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_05: Can we just sort of throw this out there as a Hail Mary for people who might be panicking right now?
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_05: Is there a possibility that those fish that you've found is it possible that they are not fish that have snuck through, but in fact, fish that inadvertently have been planted here by some twisted individual who had them brought in for aquarium purposes?
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_05: I'm grasping here.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_05: I'm I'm trying to figure out is there because I like to think that when we shut the door, it was closed and we're good.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_05: Like these things cannot break the door down.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_05: Is it possible?
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_05: Is it possible that these these few fish, because I mean at the end of the day, 39 is not that big a number, right?
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_05: In the big picture?
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh ultimately I I I don't know.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we really hypothesize any like bad players or actors out there that are planting these.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um kind of just look at the biology and the science side of things.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: So determining whether they're rep reproductively viable and then trying to do the analysis on um possible like natal origin based on like cool science stuff like odolith microchemistry, but we don't really talk about the the who sometimes, you know.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you know what?
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: People there are people in this world that are so nefarious that are so in that like I mean, it would be a horrible thing to do, but somebody could just say, ah, you know what, I'm doing this.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think it'd be more likely to happen with somebody who didn't know anything and they just released it.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's that's I think that's what's happening.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_05: That's what that's what I'm talking about.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not talking about something that is you know, a criminal mind.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_05: No, I'm saying somebody inadvertently had to get rid of some fish and they just didn't see anything wrong.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: Their heart bled for that fish.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe it.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_05: They didn't say anything wrong with with just dumping it in their local that's what happens with the goldfish all the time.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: It happens a lot.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm sure it happens more than anybody ever figures with aquarium fish.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, let's just dump them in the toilet or dump them at the lake or whatever, you know.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: It happens, we know it.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_05: So uh unfortunately.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_05: Is that a possibility at all?
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_05: Or you don't even you're not you're not giving us any hope on that one, are you?
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I because I really hope not, you know, like they're they're they're illegal to even like buy and sell and transport in Canada unless they're eviscerated, meaning they're completely gutted.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I would hope that that information is out there and that any individuals in Canada are not going against regulation or at least aware of it should they come upon this fish.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: I like that word.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: What's that inviscerated?
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: Inviscerated, eviscerated.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: I like that word.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's my we'll take credit for that one.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um, how are they doing south of the border?
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_05: You know, we keep talking about oh my goodness, make sure they don't get through the door, bar the the barn door.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_05: But how are they doing south of the border?
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_05: What's going on down there?
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: I can't speak to their specific numbers.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: They do have you know established populations of grass crap in the US.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's where you know they originate originated from because they were purposely brought over to the US to control the aquaculture ponds, and they've spread since then.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: So there are self-sustaining populations there, but in terms of numbers, I I don't have a sense of that.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we do work with the US in terms of best practices and research and the most up-to-date knowledge, and we sit on like a grass carp advisory committee with them, which is this bi-national effort with them.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the most I can say, in that we we like to share our our knowledge and best practices with them and trying to prevent these things or get rid of these things.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: Boy, oh boy, oh boy.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Trisha, moving to invasive carp in general.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: Has there been any black, silver, or big head or whatever the ones there?
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's three other ones.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_05: Have there been any snake is one of the snakehead is another one, yeah.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_01: But of these carp in Canada yet.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: Anything else of the species?
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, grass carp is our most immediate threat in what we've captured since the beginning of our program.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that doesn't mean that we downplay like the potential negative effects of the other three.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: Think of them like putting pressures on different aspects of our food web and ecosystem.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it isn't that grass carp is the worst, it's just because they're the most immediate threat, considering their proximity to populations to the US.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you haven't seen a heard of any in Canada yet of the other three species.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, fortunately not.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good that's a good one.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: The snakeheaded are there snakeheaded, you know, and I don't know if you guys study that, but are there snakeheaded in Canada?
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: Those are also prohibited in the federal AIS regulations to to transport sal and stuff, unless I believe eviscerated as well.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and not that I know of.
• 1:02:45
  unknown: Okay.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_05: All right, just to set the record straight here, so 39 have been documented.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: Four from this year.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_05: Four from this, and and and out of the 39, approximately one third were fertile.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_05: So they could and they were both male and female in that group.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um they're both fertile males, the ones from the Welland.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_05: No, the Welland, but I'm talking in in the the the big picture, the the the Oh, sorry.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, the 39 that have been captured, approximately one-third were fertile.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm assuming that that was both male and female, which means that, you know, in a if we're if we're mathematicians and we're doing the math and saying that was the gazintas.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_05: My gazintas.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, the whole the whole problem really we're talking about maybe 14, 15 fertile fish that we need to really be at this point, based on evidence that we need to worry about.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I mean those 14 fish have been removed from our Canadian tributaries, right?
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: And they when they were found in the tributary, it it's been often um just the one-off, or um, there have only been like that rare case of pulling multiple out at the same time.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_05: But but you probably use a formula just like we do in the media business, and that in the media business, if you get one person complaining about your product, that represents about 120 other people who dislike the product but didn't have the wherewithal to actually complain about it.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_05: Have you guys done that formula with saying, okay, we've caught 39, but really in the big picture, that represents X.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's getting into some modeling that uh honestly I'm not an expert in, but also our early detection stuff is really targeted to grass carp, which is why I, you know, I don't quite panic about that number.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's still a low number in my mind, and considering the amount of effort that we're putting in into these select tributaries where there have been repeated captures or that we know are very suitable to grass carp.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I I'm not quite as panicked about trying to extrapolate that across the entire Great Lakes.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_03: I have a question if I can about the uh triploids.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm assuming any fish brought into the US, because I think they're still allowed to bring them in, they have to be triploids by law, I'm assuming.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um for some of the states, yeah.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_00: So depending on the state, there's different regulations.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: So um uh I can't remember the exact states.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's like New York and Pennsylvania and stuff that you're you can stock grass carp, but they have to be sterile or triploid.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_00: But then there are some states where it is actually legal to stock diploid fertile grass carpet.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_03: So the because I was wondering if the ones that are here that are found to be fertile, they like second generation that kind of slip through somehow?
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_03: Or is it uh yeah, like is it possible that they are stalking or putting in um reproducing fish in the US that are just swimming over and this is the first generation that we're seeing?
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is there any it's it's a good question.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_00: We don't entirely know.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: And some of those studies are ongoing about determining some of these grass carps that were captured in Canada, like where they came from.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are still ongoing.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's uh to your point about like some states having the stock diploids we also have to remember there are um reproducing grass carp that are in Ohio like in the Sandusky Maumee and Huron that um again fish don't respect international borders right so that's also a potential source.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah yeah have we drawn any parallels between in terms of behavioral habits between common carp and grass carp do they kind of hang out in the same area do they prefer the same things that a common carp would?
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm asking that question because if we do want to spend a little more time maybe being vigilant uh you know spending time in areas where we know they could be hanging out during certain periods of the year might be beneficial.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah that's a really great point.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because we don't capture grass sharp very often we kind of want to look at okay how efficient are gears and are we looking in the right places and we actually have two species that are our surrogate species so common carp is one of them and buffalo as well.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: So when we're setting nets or we're doing electrofishing and we we see a lot of common carp and buffalo we kind of have a good gauge of like okay this is kind of where those larger bodied fish are like hanging out and inhabiting so we take that as a good sign.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if uh I wonder if to me it sounds like grass carp could be just in my simple head of thinking um suspenders a lot of floaters out there like I mean I don't I think I know we know common carp maybe always the rooting like you said rooting around or not in big water stuff not when they're out in big water.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well they use the shoreline a lot that you see them run big schools running along the shore of Lake Ontario and all that I'm just wondering if these if as a filter feeder or whatever they are asked carp if they're out in 300 feet of water and they're 30 feet down just cruising around above the salmon or something like that too, right?
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it seems like that's why these live scope anglers are going to be able to see they're gonna look at this giant thing on another 80 pounder on their screen and they're gonna say what the hell is that you can cast for it all day and you never get it.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_05: We saw one in Wabagoon.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah yeah we saw a gigantic grass carpet like sized like fish the locked nests we saw the locked nests yeah yeah uh anyways it's no laughing matter um still is a concern and I know sometimes we get a little complacent uh we the anglic community we always think well it's okay because there's a group there that's looking after that and there's another group there that's looking after that and there's another group there that's gonna make sure that that doesn't happen and then we've got government intervention so that'll always be sometimes we get complacent and we say somebody's gonna look after our our fishery but I'm I'm I'm getting the feeling that we need to on this particular in this case we need to band together.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_05: We need to say yeah we need to look after ourselves we need to make sure that this doesn't happen and as anglers am I correct in saying that probably the best thing that we could offer you and DFO would be a set of eyeballs in every I don't know whether it's back bays shallow water in the spring I don't even know that's why I was asking you if you knew where they hung out right but is that the best thing that anglers can do for you right now or is there something else that we can be doing?
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: No I think I think you hit the nail on the head like being able to have an extra set of eyes on the water is so helpful for us.
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_00: We we can't be everywhere all at once at all timings of the year.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_00: So anglers are the most likely to see these things because they're on the water around the water and you're right whether it's you're in a wetland or some backwaters or um in a flash fast flowing tributary like keep your eyes peeled and learn how to identify these things and distinguish them from something like common card which is a NISH report and then learn how to report it which is our hotline 1 800 563711 or even sending an email to info at invading species.com and um yeah don't release it.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_05: It's perfect because listen we are an army right when you look at anglers as soldiers we are the biggest army that you could possibly compile absolutely on the war field and and the field of war here is where we hang out.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_05: That's right so as anglers if we could just get a little more in tune with this I think we could move the needle.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_05: I think we can make a difference certainly in the reporting end of it and letting you know where they are and hopefully that would lead to some solutions.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and my goal my goal will be with my leathermen to eviscerate a grass cart I will put it on the shark use the word in a sentence and I'm gonna take that nice little serrated blade that I got I'm gonna put it in this hoop and I'm gonna go right up to the throat and say take that and then I'm gonna call Trisha and then let her go.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're so eloquent anything else we need to remind folks of uh Trisha um that yeah if you you capture one uh keep it with you don't re-release it um and we like to say don't bonk it on the head because there's some critical structures that we could use there for analysis.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've just learned something new but that's where my evisceration will come in and you know what I mean because I like to put titanium to the cranium a lot of times that's the way I do it with these fish.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh okay I've learned something very good I have my goal set now.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_05: All right Trisha listen thank you so much for uh taking the time to fill us in we now have it it's official we now can put numbers on paper and let folks know what uh what we're up against when you have some updates please please reach out let us know yeah yeah and uh we'll immediately uh disseminate that information to the army to our soldiers sounds good thank you guys so much for having me on it was so funny thanks for coming uh from DFO uh she is aquatic biologist with Canada's invasive carp program uh at DFO uh Trisha tougaday oh I like that it was like almost one word it's almost like no syllables whatsoever tougoday I have a hard time with that as I do with most people's names like unless you're Joe or Fred or Bob I bet you had a hard night a hard time with Joe's last name when you first met him though didn't you oh I still do I still we'd be a year later I still do 38 years later I still have this one oh my God anyways uh so that's it so we have uh 39 officially now 39 uh cases of uh Asian grass carp grass carp yeah here wow so the speculation part is over and one third and one third of those are in fact uh loaded guns possible breeders breeders yeah the the the the non-sterile fish I shouldn't say we don't need to worry about because I still think you do because the question has to be asked where did they come from?
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah yeah it's all the what are they doing here so we can we can say well there's only 14 that were sterile but yeah the truth of the matter is sterile or not somehow those fish got here don't know how and from where because a sterile fish yeah I don't know man it's it's a it's a an interesting conundrum.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_05: I still cannot get old I I I think somewhere along the line we're gonna find out that this was more of an accident than a break in my opinion.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_03: I have a feeling that's the case like you see I I used to play pond hockey on a pond that every year they would put uh um koi in it like people in the neighborhood would just come over and put koi in there and you'd see them swimming around under the ice and stuff.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_03: So people just do it and they don't think anything of it.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_05: Why why could we not think that much like in the US where this fish was originally brought in to control weeds uh in environments where they needed weed control, aquatic weed control why do we not think that that could have or is happening here unbeknownst to us I don't want to start painting these weird pictures but what if there is uh an aquaculture business somewhere that at the same time that the US was using grass carp they were using them here.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah sort of behind the scenes nobody really knows about it it's Canada's not that big and dagger so so you you know you've got a few hundred of these in the in that in pond and a couple of hundred in this pond and then through the years they've just slowly gotten into the waterway here too.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_05: It's just that we never knew about it.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_05: It's very possible absolutely you know very possible somebody needs to check in oh yeah we do have somebody checking in DFO yeah but it's true it can happen I agree you gotta open your mind up a little yeah absolutely I agree all right that are it holy moly boy we are official today aren't we well you know fish all fish all fish all see if I was control the buttons I'd have given you I hit one you guys are too loud oh can we hear it again thank you hit it I'll see myself out uh anything uh we missed today gentlemen I think we're good I think we're good nothing dude very uh good job show gentlemen nice job boys take the rest of the day off I just might Mr.
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_04: Bowman thank you it's going to that's my wonder thank you I it's for given us the permission but if you have both then it's even better on behalf of the whole team uh Nikki V, Dean Taylor, uh Mr.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_05: Bowman, and I'm Angel uh thanks for joining us.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_05: Talk to you next time this episode of Outdoor Journal Radio has been brought to you in part by the Invasive Species Center protecting Canada's land and water from invasive species Freedom Cruise Canada rent the boat own the memories and JMB cycle a marine your home for all things power sports boats and equipment