Latest / Success Story with Scott Clary / Richard Fain - Royal Caribbean Chairman | How Culture Took Us from $550M to $90 Billion

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Richard Fain - Royal Caribbean Chairman | How Culture Took Us from $550M to $90 Billion · Success Story with Scott Clary

• 0:00
  Why are you failing at retirement?
• 0:01
  I thought life was going to be so simple and so quiet.
• 0:04
  It seemed to be involved in so many things.
• 0:06
  This feels very good.
• 0:07
  All those people who say that retirement is difficult, nonsense.
• 0:10
  It's just choose the things you want to do and do them.
• 0:13
  He was handed the wheel of a modest cruise line
• 0:15
  and transformed it into a global travel empire
• 0:18
  with fleets that dared to dream bigger than the horizon.
• 0:21
  Richard Fane, the man who re-imagined what a cruise could be.
• 0:24
  The most important thing I had was good luck.
• 0:26
  I was in the right place at the right time.
• 0:29
  When I had good luck, it was in the right place at the right time.
• 0:32
  I worked hard to take advantage of.
• 0:33
  If all you do is what you did,
• 0:36
  then you're not going to get anything different.
• 0:37
  A vision is almost like saying I have a hope.
• 0:40
  The vision is important,
• 0:41
  but it also needs how am I going to get there
• 0:44
  and what am I going to do to make that happen.
• 0:46
  Introducing mega ships, pioneering experiences,
• 0:49
  and building a culture obsessed with good enough
• 0:51
  isn't good enough.
• 0:52
  For over three decades,
• 0:54
  he steered through storms,
• 0:55
  innovation,
• 0:56
  and entire industry revolutions.
• 0:58
  Particularly, if you're on a longer-term course,
• 1:01
  keep in mind the longer term
• 1:03
  and accept that there are going to be bad things that happen along the way
• 1:07
  and don't look back except them,
• 1:10
  but it isn't going to take me off of my path.
• 1:12
  It will make your life both more fun and more successful.
• 1:17
  Why are you failing at retirement?
• 1:28
  That's my wife's line.
• 1:32
  I don't know.
• 1:33
  I thought I was life was going to be so simple and so quiet,
• 1:37
  and yet I seem to be involved in so many things
• 1:40
  that I'm having trouble doing all that I want to be doing.
• 1:45
  But I must say, this feels very good.
• 1:49
  I'm feeling I get to do things I like to do.
• 1:52
  I get to choose when to do them.
• 1:54
  So I'm busy as I want to be,
• 1:55
  but I'm enjoying what I'm doing.
• 1:58
  I love that.
• 1:58
  So I think that, by the way,
• 2:01
  for all people that are super ambitious,
• 2:02
  I think it is very hard to actually retire
• 2:06
  and to actually turn off.
• 2:07
  No, it isn't.
• 2:08
  No, I've heard that from so many people and it's nonsense.
• 2:13
  This is the best thing I've done.
• 2:15
  It's just it's so much fun.
• 2:17
  I get to spend more time with my family,
• 2:19
  but I also get to do the things that I love to do.
• 2:22
  So I had the best job in the world.
• 2:25
  I worked with the most wonderful people in the world,
• 2:28
  and I enjoyed every day I went into work.
• 2:30
  But now I'm enjoying a different kind of life.
• 2:33
  And no, all those people who say that retirement is difficult
• 2:37
  and that you don't have enough to do nonsense.
• 2:41
  It's just choosing things you want to do and do them.
• 2:43
  It's great.
• 2:44
  So you spent 33 years, correct?
• 2:47
  33 years as CEO.
• 2:49
  And that is one of the longest ten years in public companies.
• 2:53
  Very fortunate.
• 2:54
  It doesn't happen often.
• 2:55
  No, it doesn't.
• 2:56
  And I kept pinching myself.
• 2:59
  And one of the things that's interesting is I would go through,
• 3:02
  you know, over that time,
• 3:04
  we completely turned over our board a number of times.
• 3:07
  And somehow they still put up with me over the period.
• 3:10
  So I was very fortunate to have it for 33 years.
• 3:13
  And I also think it allows you to complete more.
• 3:18
  So you actually see the results of your work.
• 3:20
  You see what you did right, what you did wrong.
• 3:22
  And you keep building on it.
• 3:24
  So I have to say it was not only did I love what I did,
• 3:28
  but it also gave me a chance to do it
• 3:30
  and to see success when we had it.
• 3:33
  And failure when we didn't.
• 3:34
  It's interesting because I think a lot of...
• 3:38
  I actually agree with you, obviously, completely.
• 3:41
  I think it's smart to have this long-term vision.
• 3:44
  But especially in public companies,
• 3:45
  a lot of companies have very short-term.
• 3:48
  So focusing on the next quarter and they're focusing on
• 3:50
  what does that next quarter look like.
• 3:54
  Was now, like, looking back,
• 3:56
  you understood that longevity has a huge advantage.
• 3:59
  But is that mindset of long-term thinking?
• 4:01
  Is that something that you've always had
• 4:03
  in your career across everything you've done?
• 4:06
  Well, I've been fortunate that I've been in businesses
• 4:08
  that encourage that and that I've had mentors
• 4:11
  and associates who support that.
• 4:14
  So that actually is lucky because there is so much pressure
• 4:18
  from so many sides to focus only on next month, next year.
• 4:23
  It really is strong.
• 4:25
  And I think that's one of the advantages
• 4:27
  of having been in the position so long
• 4:30
  because I actually was able to point to some successes.
• 4:36
  And so when I argued we should do something
• 4:38
  that may not pay off for five years or seven years,
• 4:41
  people were willing to put up with that and see,
• 4:44
  oh yeah, well, that's been the approach and it's worked so far
• 4:47
  so they're willing to continue it.
• 4:49
  So I was very fortunate to be able to do that.
• 4:51
  But I think it's essential for success.
• 4:54
  Yeah, I agree.
• 4:55
  I just, I wish more people thought like that.
• 4:57
  I mean, we're talking about a very specific sort of circumstance
• 5:03
  when you're running a public trade company.
• 5:05
  But the thought of long term towards anything
• 5:09
  is one of my favorite ideas.
• 5:10
  I think that it, I think that of course,
• 5:12
  it plays out in companies of the size of what you were running.
• 5:16
  But I also think that it plays out
• 5:17
  if you're starting a company, if you're at any point in your career.
• 5:21
  Like just playing the long game is something
• 5:23
  that I feel like we're getting worse at as a professional society.
• 5:29
  I think we are getting worse at thinking long term
• 5:32
  because the pressures are overwhelming.
• 5:34
  But choosing who you work with,
• 5:39
  and being able to actually talk it out.
• 5:42
  I think one of the things that helped me was,
• 5:45
  and people say I talk too much,
• 5:47
  but one of the things that helped me was
• 5:49
  we actually dialogue about these things.
• 5:52
  And people almost take it what you can't do that
• 5:55
  because my God next year is really going to be a problem.
• 5:59
  When we talk it through and say,
• 6:00
  well, yeah, next year is going to be a problem.
• 6:03
  But two years from now, four years from now,
• 6:05
  we really see where that's going to lead us
• 6:08
  and being able to actually have the discussion
• 6:11
  and really look at it from different angles.
• 6:14
  And eventually, even people who started out thinking short-term
• 6:19
  come around and say, you know,
• 6:20
  if this really works and it has before,
• 6:23
  then that'll be fantastic.
• 6:25
  So I think it's a question of not accepting
• 6:29
  and just saying, oh, okay, I agree with you.
• 6:31
  We'll go, we'll worry about next year.
• 6:33
  But no, let's have a discussion.
• 6:35
  So this is, I mean, when you first started working
• 6:40
  at Royal Caribbean, obviously,
• 6:41
  it was a very different company than it's evolved to today.
• 6:46
  So walk me through a little bit
• 6:47
  so people just know your origin story
• 6:48
  because again, 33 years in one company
• 6:50
  is a very, very long time.
• 6:54
  Was that something that you had set your mind to
• 6:56
  that you wanted to work in the travel, hospitality,
• 7:00
  cruise business, or where did you start
• 7:02
  that sort of pushed you down this path?
• 7:04
  The inflection point that eventually got you to CEO.
• 7:07
  Well, of course, the most important thing I had was good luck.
• 7:14
  You know, I was in the right place at the right time.
• 7:17
  I worked with people.
• 7:18
  I had mentors who were supportive and knowledgeable
• 7:21
  and really inspiring.
• 7:25
  I also, when I had good luck,
• 7:27
  it was in the right place at the right time.
• 7:29
  I worked hard to take advantage of it.
• 7:31
  But the main thing I had was luck in having
• 7:35
  happenstance into an industry.
• 7:37
  I didn't expect to go into this industry,
• 7:39
  but I was working with a company
• 7:42
  that had a small interest in a cruise line.
• 7:44
  So I started to get a little involved in the cruise line
• 7:47
  and what I saw there blew me away.
• 7:49
  So I was just lucked into that.
• 7:51
  Never expected this to be that long period.
• 7:55
  The founder of the company,
• 7:57
  who was then the president,
• 7:58
  was a terrific guy who had created something very special,
• 8:02
  created a culture.
• 8:03
  You could already see the importance of that culture.
• 8:06
  And so I was able to take what he had built
• 8:09
  and just build on it.
• 8:12
  But I started really standing on the shoulders
• 8:15
  of others who had come before me and done well.
• 8:18
  What in your opinion?
• 8:19
  Because you mentioned words.
• 8:20
  I want to go through some of these words that you mentioned before,
• 8:22
  but you mentioned what you mentioned.
• 8:27
  Culture is a catalyst.
• 8:28
  That's interesting.
• 8:29
  Like how does culture translate into actual
• 8:32
  like business metrics, KPI's, revenues,
• 8:36
  a net promoter score, whatever you want to measure
• 8:38
  for your customers,
• 8:39
  but also intentional.
• 8:41
  Intentionals are a word that comes up repeatedly.
• 8:43
  So there's something that you're doing specifically
• 8:46
  that's driving that and letting everybody believe it
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  and buy into it.
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  Not just have words on a website.
• 8:52
  And I think you put your finger on something
• 8:54
  because the intentionality of going after something
• 8:57
  is critical.
• 8:59
  As we both said, people say, oh yeah, ethics.
• 9:03
  That's one, ethics or culture.
• 9:05
  It's in our DNA.
• 9:07
  But it isn't, and that almost implies that it's inherent.
• 9:10
  We've hired people who have this in their DNA
• 9:14
  and they make it happen.
• 9:17
  Intentionality means, no, it doesn't happen by itself.
• 9:21
  It's not a natural evolution of things.
• 9:24
  It is something that you work at every day.
• 9:27
  And so if you want a culture of innovation,
• 9:30
  if you want a culture of integrity,
• 9:32
  if you want a culture of long-term thinking,
• 9:36
  you actually have to talk about it.
• 9:38
  You can't just take it for, oh yeah,
• 9:39
  of course everybody is a person of integrity.
• 9:44
  No, you have to think about it.
• 9:46
  You have to talk about it.
• 9:47
  You have to discuss it.
• 9:48
  You have to say, how does this advance
• 9:51
  if it's integrity?
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  How do I make sure?
• 9:54
  How do I talk about it?
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  How do I make sure my people understand
• 9:58
  that I feel this way?
• 9:59
  Not just assume that that's the case.
• 10:01
  If I'm talking about excellence,
• 10:03
  how do I communicate that?
• 10:05
  So you actually have to discuss it.
• 10:07
  You actually have to focus on it.
• 10:09
  You actually have to do things that demonstrate it.
• 10:12
  So part of it is by leading by example.
• 10:16
  And so when you're making a decision
• 10:19
  and other people see it,
• 10:21
  then that's, they learn from that.
• 10:24
  So Royal Caribbean, which day is more than 100,000 employees
• 10:28
  versus a couple of thousand just a few years ago,
• 10:34
  we actually talk about these things
• 10:37
  and it permeates through the organization.
• 10:41
  And by the way, that also goes up to the board.
• 10:44
  The board, the management, the executives,
• 10:48
  the officers, all the people throughout the organization
• 10:51
  have to be aligned on these things.
• 10:53
  And the way you do that is by discussing them in general
• 10:57
  and by discussing them in the context of specific decisions.
• 11:00
  And then that's what allows an organization
• 11:04
  of 100,000 plus employees,
• 11:05
  which is a wild amount of employees.
• 11:08
  That's how they all start to move towards the same North Star.
• 11:11
  And they understand not just how to move towards the same North Star,
• 11:14
  but the way that they move towards that North Star.
• 11:17
  Yeah, you know, I don't care what organization,
• 11:20
  you know, I don't care how careful you measure everything
• 11:23
  and how careful you are about articulating what the things are.
• 11:26
  There's still a lot of unspoken expectations.
• 11:31
  And everybody knows in any organization,
• 11:36
  but especially in a large organization,
• 11:38
  costs are important to keep under control.
• 11:42
  But what does that mean?
• 11:44
  It's very easy to be, I'll just take this example.
• 11:47
  It's very easy to be the cheapest operation around,
• 11:53
  because you just do the minimum that you have to do.
• 11:55
  And it's relatively easy to define if you want to be,
• 11:59
  I don't care about costs, I just want to be at the best.
• 12:02
  But to find, and I always love the comparison,
• 12:06
  if I say I want the best car in the world for the price,
• 12:10
  is that a Lada, which is a piece of junk
• 12:14
  or is that a Rolls-Royce?
• 12:15
  Both meet the criteria,
• 12:17
  but because one can be the best in the world,
• 12:21
  I don't care about the price,
• 12:23
  and that's true if it's a very high price or a very low price.
• 12:27
  But having a clear understanding
• 12:31
  so that each decision you make
• 12:32
  fits in with the long-term goal, that's the key.
• 12:35
  Because that's the other question, too,
• 12:37
  you want to be intentional about every decision you make.
• 12:39
  You want to make sure that there's a framework
• 12:42
  or a lens, I don't know if that's the right word,
• 12:45
  that each decision passes through when it's made,
• 12:48
  but that has to be the whole organization
• 12:49
  that sees the decision framework the same way.
• 12:53
  Because it's hard to be intentional
• 12:54
  when not only yourself is making thousands of decisions
• 12:57
  every single week, but every single person
• 12:59
  is making thousands of decisions.
• 13:00
  Is that, is there a framework,
• 13:03
  or because you mentioned you speak about it,
• 13:05
  and you talk about it, but when people are pressured,
• 13:10
  they're only human.
• 13:11
  So how do you make sure that even in high pressure situations,
• 13:14
  like culture is maintained when you're making endless
• 13:16
  amounts of decisions across 100,000 people?
• 13:18
  Well, that's basically you've put your finger on exactly
• 13:23
  what I wanted to write the book about.
• 13:25
  How do you do that?
• 13:26
  How do you communicate that?
• 13:28
  How do you end up getting alignment
• 13:30
  so that you're all understand what you're trying to do?
• 13:35
  One of the famous stories that I love
• 13:37
  was when JFK went to NASA and was visiting at NASA.
• 13:42
  And he saw a janitor and he said to the janitor,
• 13:47
  what's your job, what do you do?
• 13:49
  And the janitor's response was,
• 13:51
  I'm helping get a man on the moon.
• 13:55
  That, that purpose is what you want every organization
• 14:00
  to have, and you can have it.
• 14:03
  You talk about it, it's a culture permeates.
• 14:06
  It's not one person saying,
• 14:08
  I want a culture of this, that, or the other thing.
• 14:11
  It's, you all bleed it, you all understand it.
• 14:14
  And it's, by example, I don't make thousands
• 14:19
  of decisions a day, I make some decisions,
• 14:22
  but actually there are thousands, hundreds of thousands
• 14:25
  of people making individual decisions.
• 14:27
  And so you do it by example when an issue comes up,
• 14:31
  how do you respond to it?
• 14:34
  And one of the examples when I given the book
• 14:37
  was when we decided we were discussing whether or not
• 14:40
  to put an ice skating ring on a ship.
• 14:43
  And the simple answer was to do it on Teflon,
• 14:48
  on artificial ice.
• 14:50
  But it was a compromise, it wasn't very good.
• 14:53
  An ice skater on artificial ice doesn't have that amazing
• 14:57
  gracefulness, that frictionless move that you see
• 15:00
  when you see them skating on real ice.
• 15:03
  So we made that decision, and it was a very tough decision
• 15:06
  because it was staggeringly expensive.
• 15:08
  I have no doubt, I have no doubt.
• 15:11
  And it's only expensive to do, but it's expensive to operate
• 15:15
  because now you have to maintain the ice
• 15:17
  and you need the world-class skaters.
• 15:20
  And we've been able to do that, but everybody sees,
• 15:23
  oh, they didn't compromise here, they made the choice
• 15:27
  if we're providing an excellent vacation,
• 15:30
  every aspect of it has to be excellent.
• 15:32
  Another buzzword is vision, and you point out
• 15:35
  that vision is very different than intentionality.
• 15:39
  What does vision mean?
• 15:41
  Why is it not the thing the people should be trying to achieve?
• 15:44
  Achieve a vision, I have a vision for the company,
• 15:46
  whatever that is.
• 15:48
  What's the difference?
• 15:49
  Well, I do think vision is important.
• 15:51
  I didn't intend to minimalize it.
• 15:54
  It is important that you have a vision
• 15:56
  and you know where you're trying to go.
• 15:57
  It's not enough, but it's not enough.
• 15:59
  A vision is almost like saying I have a hope.
• 16:03
  Every organization I see, including ones
• 16:06
  that I don't think are successful
• 16:08
  or are likely to be successful, say,
• 16:10
  oh, we're going to be the best in the world at this.
• 16:13
  But if they don't go at it with intentionality,
• 16:16
  it's not enough just to say that.
• 16:18
  People aren't going to say, oh, the boss says that,
• 16:22
  so that's what we're going to do.
• 16:24
  If it contradicts all the other aspects
• 16:27
  of the culture and the organization,
• 16:29
  you really need somebody to say that's the vision
• 16:32
  and here's all the things we're going to do
• 16:34
  to make that vision a reality.
• 16:36
  It's the vision is important,
• 16:39
  but it also needs how am I going to get there
• 16:42
  and what am I going to do to make that happen?
• 16:45
  And if everybody is working to make that happen,
• 16:48
  that's where you get success, not just the vision.
• 16:52
  One of my favorite quotes, it sort of sums up
• 16:55
  what we were just talking about.
• 16:56
  True intentionality requires unwavering focus
• 16:59
  on the long-term objective
• 17:00
  and not being distracted by easy compromises.
• 17:03
  It's beautiful.
• 17:04
  It makes a ton of sense.
• 17:06
  Now I'm going to not challenge you,
• 17:07
  but I guess play a little bit of devil's advocate.
• 17:10
  So how do you have, because that quote,
• 17:13
  I love playing devil's advocate, so absolutely that.
• 17:16
  That, by the way, that's the way you create culture
• 17:19
  because if nobody is playing devil's advocate,
• 17:22
  you just have group think.
• 17:23
  Well, that's what I was going to ask.
• 17:24
  I was going to say, so how do you have that?
• 17:26
  But also encourage an organization and a company
• 17:29
  that has how else to describe it?
• 17:31
  Like the psychological safety for somebody
• 17:33
  to put up their hand when they don't think
• 17:35
  what is going on, it should be what's going on.
• 17:38
  Well, that is the culture.
• 17:40
  And I wish I knew there was some great secrets out there.
• 17:43
  You do this, that, and the other,
• 17:44
  and you create a great culture.
• 17:46
  But it's what you do.
• 17:48
  And what we do is we keep trying things.
• 17:52
  We have a dope in dialogue.
• 17:54
  And again, it's by example.
• 17:57
  So if somebody comes up and says, wait a minute,
• 18:00
  you said you were going to do this,
• 18:02
  but is that really what you want to do?
• 18:04
  Is that really going to achieve your objective?
• 18:06
  And maybe they're playing devil's advocate.
• 18:08
  Maybe they just really feel you're wrong.
• 18:11
  And you have that discussion.
• 18:14
  That's what creates confidence
• 18:16
  that you've come to the right answer.
• 18:18
  When you think about the people that you work with,
• 18:21
  those people will make or break an organization.
• 18:23
  And for any successful company,
• 18:26
  they have to have people that are independent thinkers
• 18:29
  that challenge the status quo.
• 18:32
  How do you find those people?
• 18:34
  How do you get them aligned with the culture,
• 18:37
  but not sort of dim maybe the experience
• 18:42
  or the devil's advocate that they can bring to the table?
• 18:45
  Because somebody who is, I've always thought about this.
• 18:48
  How does somebody who is an entrepreneurial minded person
• 18:51
  who can be very beneficial to an organization
• 18:54
  work within the confines of a public company
• 18:57
  that has structure and order?
• 18:59
  And this is the mandate.
• 19:00
  How do you find and retain and help those people
• 19:04
  thrive without killing their spark?
• 19:06
  Well, that's our challenge every day.
• 19:09
  And that's one of the things
• 19:12
  that I think has made us so successful.
• 19:14
  We have been successful in attracting unbelievable people.
• 19:18
  I mean, it is the people, it's the people,
• 19:20
  it's the people, it's the people.
• 19:22
  But then, when we're together, we gin each other up.
• 19:28
  We encourage each other.
• 19:32
  I still remember one of the examples
• 19:35
  that thrilled me at the time was we had an architect
• 19:39
  make a presentation.
• 19:41
  And she had a very difficult area.
• 19:45
  And she made a presentation and it was transformational.
• 19:48
  It was just so different than everything else.
• 19:51
  And everybody, when she was finished, applauded.
• 19:54
  And that never happens.
• 19:56
  And then she was followed by another architect
• 19:59
  who was used to going into presentations
• 20:02
  and having everybody said, oh yeah, that's very nice.
• 20:05
  Because an architect's presentation is always very nice.
• 20:08
  Hers was extraordinary.
• 20:10
  His was about to be very nice.
• 20:12
  And so he stood up and said, I'm about to give you
• 20:18
  my presentation, but it's not at the level
• 20:22
  that's going to attract your applause.
• 20:25
  But I'm going to leave this meeting
• 20:27
  and at our next meeting, I will learn that applause.
• 20:31
  And so it becomes a competition.
• 20:34
  You understand that people are looking for
• 20:38
  and willing to listen to new and different ideas.
• 20:42
  And we do that internally.
• 20:45
  And so we get, everybody loves to play Devils of.
• 20:48
  I enjoy it.
• 20:49
  And it's interesting and you learn from it.
• 20:53
  Eventually you have to reach a decision.
• 20:55
  But you are rewarded by either promotion
• 21:01
  or just by kudos for innovative thinking.
• 21:05
  And people begin to learn that
• 21:07
  and then everybody feels empowered.
• 21:09
  One other thing that I thought was interesting
• 21:10
  because another really good quote is alignment
• 21:14
  is not synonymous with consensus.
• 21:16
  And consensus often leads to the least objectionable outcome
• 21:19
  rather than the best possible outcome.
• 21:22
  So how do you know when it's alignment versus,
• 21:26
  I guess consensus would be somebody saying,
• 21:29
  like fake agreement, like, oh fine, right?
• 21:31
  Like, oh fine, I guess we'll move in that direction
• 21:33
  or oh fine, I guess I'll buy into this project
• 21:36
  even though I don't actually believe in it.
• 21:42
  So how do you actually get alignment
• 21:43
  and not just this sort of this water down consensus?
• 21:47
  So I think the consensus often is
• 21:51
  just a constant series of compromises.
• 21:54
  And it's a little like somebody's taking something
• 21:58
  that is clear, because clarity is important.
• 22:01
  But somebody's thinking clear direction
• 22:03
  and then saying, well, okay, but we don't have to do quite this.
• 22:06
  And consensus, when I've seen
• 22:09
  that organizations work towards it,
• 22:11
  well, okay, I need your support.
• 22:14
  So I'm going to accept your change.
• 22:18
  And I had one person I've worked with him in years
• 22:22
  who used to call that creeping crud.
• 22:25
  So you take a really clear, unequivocal,
• 22:32
  uncompromising direction.
• 22:34
  And you say, well, okay, but I'll make a compromise here,
• 22:37
  which by itself isn't terrible.
• 22:39
  And I'll make a compromise here,
• 22:41
  but that compromise gets you to buy in.
• 22:43
  And in the end, we all sit around the table and say,
• 22:46
  ah, we like where we've ended up.
• 22:48
  But where we've ended up is a compromise.
• 22:51
  It's watered down a little bit, yeah.
• 22:53
  It's exactly, it's watered down, if I may use the term
• 22:57
  half-assed, it is, it's not consistent as opposed to,
• 23:05
  okay, let's talk about these things,
• 23:07
  but let's understand exactly what it is.
• 23:09
  And let's look at whether your suggestion
• 23:13
  really makes this substantive you better.
• 23:16
  And if we don't think it does, let's be honest about it.
• 23:21
  I'm not going to say yes just because I the group,
• 23:24
  just because I want you to sign onto this.
• 23:28
  We're going to look at this together.
• 23:30
  And what we find is everybody has their voice,
• 23:34
  everybody is heard, their opinions are respected.
• 23:38
  But in the end, we need to move forward
• 23:41
  with clarity, with intentionality,
• 23:44
  and without ambiguity.
• 23:46
  Quick question, what's your go to
• 23:48
  when you got 10 minutes before a meeting or a workout?
• 23:51
  For me, it just used to be whatever I could grab,
• 23:53
  which usually meant skipping meals entirely
• 23:55
  or just grabbing something that left me crashing
• 23:58
  an hour later because it was just full of garbage.
• 24:00
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• 24:14
  I always keep a few of these in my fridge.
• 24:16
  And honestly, it's solved the whole back-to-back meetings,
• 24:19
  go, go, go, non-stop, no time to eat problem, super well.
• 24:23
  And this one's new for me.
• 24:24
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• 24:25
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• 24:32
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• 24:34
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  I throw one back first thing,
• 24:40
  before my morning calls, every single morning.
• 24:42
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• 24:43
  time is the most valuable asset.
• 24:45
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• 24:47
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• 25:14
  They really make healthy living tastes amazing.
• 25:16
  Even if you're on the go, healthy eating,
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  healthy lifestyle, doesn't have to taste bad,
• 25:20
  it doesn't have to suck.
• 25:21
  HubSpot is a success story partner.
• 25:23
  Now think about listening to this podcast right now.
• 25:26
  You're probably multitasking,
• 25:27
  you're probably catching 70 to 80% of what we're talking about,
• 25:30
  but let's flip that and imagine you're only catching 20%.
• 25:33
  That'd be crazy, right?
• 25:33
  It's really not a good use of your time
• 25:35
  if you only remember 20% of what we're talking about,
• 25:38
  but most businesses, most entrepreneurs
• 25:40
  are only using 20% of their data.
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  All the most important details and call logs, emails,
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  chats with their customers,
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  it's just left floating in digital space,
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• 25:57
  of your business today.
• 25:58
  NetSuite is a success story partner.
• 26:00
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  If you ask nine experts, you'll get 10 answers,
• 26:03
  bull market, bear market, rates are up, rates are down.
• 26:06
  At the end of the day,
• 26:07
  it just be easier if somebody invented a crystal ball.
• 26:09
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• 27:06
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• 27:08
  Now if you're hiring, indeed is all you need.
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  Let me give you an example.
• 27:11
  If I needed to hire a new editor for this show,
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  I'd go to indeed and be super specific.
• 27:14
  Not just can you edit audio,
• 27:16
  I'd say I need someone who's edited a conversational podcast
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  for at least three years,
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  gets our style and knows our software.
• 27:22
  Someone who's done this before.
• 27:23
  And here's the thing with indeed sponsored jobs.
• 27:25
  I'd get people who fit that description.
• 27:27
  I'm not digging through resumes
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  when people who've edited one YouTube video,
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• 28:21
  And where does, I mean, I think ego is probably
• 28:25
  one of the worst things across the board.
• 28:27
  Ego, ego kills ideas, ego kills projects,
• 28:29
  ego kills alignment, ego kills a lot of different things.
• 28:34
  But when you have very high performing people
• 28:36
  that have been successful for the majority of the career,
• 28:38
  they do sometimes come with ego.
• 28:40
  So how do you get rid of ego
• 28:43
  while still maintaining alignment?
• 28:45
  I don't think we ever get rid of ego.
• 28:49
  And frankly, I don't know anybody
• 28:53
  that doesn't have a little bit of egoistical
• 28:59
  or evotistical views.
• 29:03
  And frankly, we've had very successful people
• 29:09
  at War Caribbean and they are rightly proud of their success.
• 29:12
  So I don't say we should eliminate ego.
• 29:17
  I'd say we should build on it
• 29:20
  and give them more to be proud about.
• 29:23
  So when you come with an idea
• 29:27
  and it's successful, terrific.
• 29:31
  And you should be proud about it.
• 29:33
  And maybe that will also encourage you
• 29:36
  to come up with another good idea next year.
• 29:39
  And so I don't think in our case,
• 29:43
  ego is necessarily, now if the ego can go too far
• 29:47
  and then if something is a good idea
• 29:49
  simply because it's mine,
• 29:51
  that's really destructive
• 29:53
  and exactly the way you said.
• 29:55
  But generally, I think one of our attitudes
• 30:00
  at War Caribbean has been passion
• 30:03
  and passion also can discourage alignment
• 30:09
  because I'm passionate about my idea.
• 30:11
  But if I understand that if we're all together on this,
• 30:14
  we end up in a better place, that works.
• 30:17
  And that's where the North Star really does matter.
• 30:19
  That's where the North start.
• 30:21
  Because you also have this idea,
• 30:22
  this philosophy of continuous improvement,
• 30:27
  never being satisfied, constantly seeking better,
• 30:29
  which I think is that's a very important idea to have.
• 30:35
  Continuous improvement, it really means
• 30:37
  that you're not happy with,
• 30:39
  it's not that you're not happy, you're not satisfied.
• 30:42
  How do you make sure as a leader of an organization?
• 30:48
  You strive towards what's next,
• 30:50
  the next thing, the next innovation,
• 30:52
  the next milestone.
• 30:53
  But how do you constantly do that without
• 30:55
  sort of tiring out the people that you're working with?
• 30:57
  Because that means that there's always this moving target,
• 30:59
  right, you're always moving the goalposts,
• 31:01
  which is it can be a good thing,
• 31:03
  but it can also be tiring for people
• 31:06
  that are always trying to do the next thing.
• 31:08
  It can be tiring,
• 31:10
  but the thrill of improvement,
• 31:13
  the thrill of seeing it,
• 31:15
  overcomes all that.
• 31:17
  I don't think I was ever tired at War Caribbean.
• 31:22
  I was never tired.
• 31:23
  It was so exciting and it was always something new.
• 31:27
  It was whether it's food or a ship
• 31:31
  or an ad campaign or employee benefits program.
• 31:36
  These were exciting things.
• 31:38
  And everybody throughout the organization
• 31:41
  had the satisfaction.
• 31:44
  I think satisfaction overcomes fatigue any day of the week.
• 31:48
  So I don't see that as a problem.
• 31:51
  I saw that as an opportunity.
• 31:53
  Is perfectionism a good thing or a bad thing?
• 31:55
  Well, I think there are pros and cons.
• 31:59
  I'm not sure the insatiability is the same thing
• 32:01
  as perfectionism.
• 32:04
  And in fact, continuous improvement helps
• 32:06
  because I don't have to reinvent the needle
• 32:09
  or the fire or whatever it is.
• 32:11
  I just need to know that I've made it better
• 32:14
  and that I can continue to make it better.
• 32:18
  And one of the advantages of continuous improvement
• 32:21
  is, and I think this is very important,
• 32:23
  is it's not looking back, it's looking forward.
• 32:26
  So I say, here's the way I can improve this.
• 32:31
  Doesn't mean that I've been doing it badly.
• 32:34
  It just means that I can do it better.
• 32:36
  And by the way, now that I've gotten it better,
• 32:39
  I hope you do better still.
• 32:41
  So it can be tiring, but it can also be energizing
• 32:47
  because it creates the energy of I can do even better
• 32:51
  and I'm being applauded,
• 32:54
  because giving credit is a part of this.
• 32:57
  I'm applauded for the changes I've made, whoever I am.
• 33:01
  And again, that's whether that is a cabin steward
• 33:06
  or a head of marketing, whatever your position,
• 33:10
  you can do that job better.
• 33:12
  I like that.
• 33:13
  I think that that's probably where,
• 33:15
  if I was going to think of how perfectionism could be toxic,
• 33:19
  it's striving towards perfectionism
• 33:23
  without actually saying that the work that you've done is good.
• 33:26
  And perfectionism also kind of implies criticizing
• 33:30
  because there's no such thing as perfect.
• 33:32
  And actually, one of the ironies is,
• 33:34
  the continuous improvement really says,
• 33:36
  there is no such thing as perfect.
• 33:38
  I can do better and I'm not,
• 33:40
  it's not because what I did was bad,
• 33:43
  it's because we can always do better.
• 33:45
  And perfectionism is there is a perfect answer.
• 33:48
  And I think there's never a perfect answer.
• 33:51
  Roll Crimin is better today than it was a year ago
• 33:55
  or four years ago when I stepped down a CEO
• 33:58
  or 10 years before that.
• 34:01
  We're continuously improving,
• 34:03
  not striving for perfection,
• 34:05
  but striving for excellence.
• 34:08
  That's so important.
• 34:10
  I see this a lot with founders,
• 34:12
  obviously, that are just starting their business
• 34:14
  for the first time and they feel like it's never enough.
• 34:18
  Like what they're doing is never enough
• 34:19
  or what they've accomplished is never enough.
• 34:21
  And I think that it's a little bit,
• 34:24
  this is more of an entrepreneur discussion
• 34:25
  but it's very isolating when you're alone in your building
• 34:29
  and you don't have a team or a group or a board
• 34:33
  that's saying, no, we were incredible 10 years ago
• 34:36
  but now we're even better.
• 34:39
  If I may, just to build on your point,
• 34:42
  I often use the word North Star
• 34:44
  because I think North Star is what you're going at.
• 34:47
  But one of the things to remember about the North Star,
• 34:49
  the North Star is a great navigation tool.
• 34:53
  You, there's the North Star, I know where North is,
• 34:56
  that gives me a direction to go in.
• 34:58
  But nobody thinks they're going to get to the North Star.
• 35:01
  The North Star is beyond your ability to reach.
• 35:06
  It is a direction and you never get there.
• 35:09
  And so that's why I would argue continuous improvement
• 35:12
  is not seeking perfection, it's seeking improvement.
• 35:16
  And when we look at NPS
• 35:20
  or when we look at employee satisfaction or engagement
• 35:24
  or guest satisfaction, we're actually,
• 35:29
  we're not looking to get to 100.
• 35:31
  That's an impossible goal and not even a particularly good one.
• 35:35
  But we're looking to constantly do better
• 35:37
  and to have a continual upward trend.
• 35:40
  And that's what's been successful for us.
• 35:42
  And I think that's the difference
• 35:44
  between what we do and perfectionists.
• 35:47
  Who influences the decisions the most?
• 35:49
  Is it something that the people that speak with the guests?
• 35:52
  Sort of they have that in boots on the ground
• 35:55
  that can understand what's actually going to make
• 35:56
  the experience better?
• 35:57
  Is that is there some sort of framework
• 35:59
  for filtering ideas up from the people that work with the guests?
• 36:02
  I'm assuming that's probably a smart idea
• 36:04
  because they're the ones that experience it.
• 36:06
  But also how do you make decisions
• 36:08
  on what to actually focus on and spend time and energy
• 36:11
  and money on to, again, move closer to that North Star
• 36:13
  when you do have a million different options?
• 36:17
  Well, that of course is the biggest challenge of any leader.
• 36:23
  And as I have, and you've quoted me before
• 36:27
  saying the first job of a leader is to lead.
• 36:32
  And it is to make sure that you're hearing all the input
• 36:36
  from the people that have it.
• 36:38
  And the key part of that is the people
• 36:40
  who are on the ground who are dealing every day with the guests
• 36:44
  who, of course, have a great deal of insight.
• 36:46
  And we look at that all the time.
• 36:50
  That's a key part of a driver.
• 36:52
  But it's also important to look outside of that.
• 36:56
  I very focused on the quote, which I ended up using a lot
• 37:01
  that was attributed to Henry Ford.
• 37:04
  Don't know whether he actually said it or not,
• 37:06
  but it's too good a quote, so I'll use it,
• 37:09
  which was if I asked people what they wanted,
• 37:12
  they would have said they wanted a faster horse.
• 37:15
  And so part of it is to understand what people want,
• 37:19
  but part of it is also to understand
• 37:21
  what they might not yet have imagined.
• 37:24
  And I think that's part of the success that Royal Caribbean
• 37:27
  is that we have people who can bring both to the table
• 37:29
  and fight it out.
• 37:31
  I mean, one of the best things that Royal Caribbean
• 37:35
  is the passion that people bring.
• 37:38
  One of the worst things that Royal Caribbean
• 37:39
  is the passion that people bring,
• 37:41
  because they don't give up.
• 37:43
  This is the right thing, and there's this is the answer,
• 37:45
  and this is what we should go with,
• 37:46
  and how can you not go this way?
• 37:51
  But we get to hear all of that,
• 37:53
  and then we get to work it together
• 37:56
  and reach alignment on a clear and unambiguous path.
• 38:00
  And it's reaching that alignment.
• 38:02
  So the process of reaching the alignment
• 38:04
  is key to our success, and then the determination
• 38:09
  to stick to that alignment with intentionality.
• 38:11
  What is the, that's a very, I love this idea
• 38:14
  of like going outside and finding things
• 38:16
  that people have never even thought of before,
• 38:18
  because the obvious, the obvious thing is to speak
• 38:22
  to the gas you figure out what they want more of
• 38:23
  or want done differently, that's a great signal.
• 38:26
  But when you think about true innovation,
• 38:28
  it's again, doing things that have never been done before.
• 38:30
  So how do you go outside and find things and new ideas?
• 38:34
  Like, is there a strategy or a framework or something?
• 38:38
  So, first of all, that is a constant challenge.
• 38:41
  And so one of the things we have done is we have,
• 38:46
  again, with intentionality.
• 38:48
  So we don't want to just ignore what people want
• 38:53
  and say, well, you don't know what you want.
• 38:54
  We know, and this new thing.
• 38:57
  So we set a framework for ourselves, for example,
• 39:00
  on a new ship, that every new ship will have one-third
• 39:04
  traditional, one-third innovative, one-third revolutionary,
• 39:09
  one-third evolutionary, one-third revolutionary.
• 39:13
  And so it allows us to try totally new things.
• 39:19
  The ice skating rink happened to be one
• 39:20
  of the rock climbing wall, flow rider, skydiving simulator,
• 39:27
  North Star.
• 39:28
  We can do all these things that nobody ever said to us.
• 39:32
  I'd like to see an ice skating rink on a ship.
• 39:34
  I'd like to see a flow rider where I can
• 39:36
  those surfing simulator.
• 39:37
  I'd like to go skydiving on a ship.
• 39:39
  Nobody ever said that to us.
• 39:41
  But we put them on knowing that if they didn't like it,
• 39:45
  we've given them everything else.
• 39:46
  So we make sure that we cover the traditional.
• 39:49
  We make sure that we put in the evolutionary.
• 39:51
  So this is traditional but better.
• 39:55
  And then we put in these revolutionary things,
• 39:58
  which we think they're going to love.
• 40:00
  And so far, we've been extraordinarily lucky
• 40:03
  and successful at that.
• 40:04
  But there are exceptions to that, and we try it.
• 40:08
  But we constantly are moving,
• 40:11
  but without giving up what we know works.
• 40:15
  So it's a bet, but it's a safe calculated bet.
• 40:19
  That's a good way to put it.
• 40:20
  That's the way I wish I had known that language
• 40:22
  when I was writing the book.
• 40:24
  It's a bet, but it's a calculated bet.
• 40:26
  If you think about the stakes with the company,
• 40:30
  with not the company, with the product that you have,
• 40:36
  the product you have is a multimillion dollar product.
• 40:39
  So the implementation of a bet is expensive.
• 40:43
  It's not like changing an ad set on Facebook
• 40:47
  and seeing if it converts at a higher row as
• 40:50
  than what we're doing last week.
• 40:51
  It's sometimes tens, probably tens of millions,
• 40:54
  if not more, for some of these bets, right?
• 40:57
  So it does have to be safe, it does have to be calculated,
• 40:59
  and it can be expensive if it doesn't work out.
• 41:02
  Well, first of all, in some cases, it's not an M, it's a B.
• 41:06
  That's very true.
• 41:07
  It's not millions, it's billions.
• 41:10
  Because remember, our new ships there
• 41:12
  costing a couple of billion dollars each,
• 41:14
  and we're ordering multiples of them.
• 41:18
  So it's a big bet.
• 41:20
  It's one we do carefully calculate,
• 41:25
  and we have enough experience to be able to understand.
• 41:29
  But yeah, we do need to make sure that we are learning
• 41:34
  from what we've seen in the past.
• 41:37
  But also, it's a bet not to do these things.
• 41:41
  I think that's the other thing I would just emphasize.
• 41:44
  If all you do is what you did,
• 41:47
  then you're not going to get anything different.
• 41:49
  And if you want to, with our North Star,
• 41:52
  has been to provide such an amazing vacation
• 41:56
  that we became, that we become,
• 41:58
  not the best cruise line, but the best vacation provider.
• 42:03
  Jason, my successor, has coined the term, I love it.
• 42:07
  He said, we don't want to be the vacation of a lifetime.
• 42:11
  We want to be a lifetime of vacations.
• 42:14
  And I think it says it so well.
• 42:16
  So our North Star was always to provide something so wonderful
• 42:21
  that we would expand our horizon
• 42:23
  and not just be a great cruise line,
• 42:25
  but be a great vacation provider.
• 42:27
  The result is we've gone from a company
• 42:30
  that was worth the 1988, $550 million,
• 42:36
  to now overall worth a little more than 90 billion.
• 42:39
  So it's been, it's worked.
• 42:42
  And it's worked because we have focused on
• 42:45
  not just taking some risks, but carefully gauged risks.
• 42:53
  One thing I wanted to discuss,
• 42:56
  you speak about a culture of wow.
• 42:59
  Now, I guess that started as an acronym, wow,
• 43:03
  but explain what that is,
• 43:04
  because a lot of the ideas that we're discussing
• 43:06
  feed into this culture of wow,
• 43:08
  but where did this first idea come from?
• 43:10
  Because this is, I mean, it's a title of the book.
• 43:12
  So obviously it's important.
• 43:13
  But what does this culture of wow really mean?
• 43:16
  Well, as you say, we had started out.
• 43:19
  We wanted to provide certain guidelines to our employees.
• 43:23
  What is it that they should be doing?
• 43:25
  And we came up, we wanted an acronym.
• 43:27
  We wanted to call it gold anchor standards.
• 43:30
  And so we had a G and we had no, and I have a D,
• 43:35
  an L-rather, and we hadn't yet figured out
• 43:38
  well, we couldn't come up with a D that fit in.
• 43:41
  And we were actually agonizing over
• 43:43
  because we liked the gold, but we wanted a D.
• 43:47
  And somebody then said, deliver the wow.
• 43:51
  And I mean, it was, the room just went silent.
• 43:54
  I mean, I do remember this very vividly.
• 43:57
  And she just said, deliver the wow.
• 44:01
  That's a D word.
• 44:03
  I mean, it was really the W word,
• 44:04
  but she got it into a D.
• 44:06
  And everybody said, my God, that's what we do.
• 44:10
  And a wow is something special.
• 44:15
  And we do so many special things.
• 44:18
  And it is the cabin steward that makes this fancy towel image
• 44:24
  for you.
• 44:24
  It is the waiter that provides an extra dessert
• 44:27
  because they know you like meringue or what have you.
• 44:32
  But it's also the supply chain, the logistics person,
• 44:39
  who one year says, you know, we've got people queuing up,
• 44:44
  the trucks queuing up at the pier
• 44:46
  because we have a lot of trucks supplying the ship
• 44:48
  on a Saturday morning.
• 44:49
  We can spread that out and do it this way.
• 44:52
  So one year she makes it so that that's more effective.
• 44:56
  And then a year later, she comes back and said,
• 44:58
  well, we'd slashed here, we solved the truck queuing problem.
• 45:01
  But now we have so that the stuff is stored on board
• 45:05
  in a way that makes it harder for the crew member to get to.
• 45:08
  So we solve the truck problem.
• 45:10
  Now let's reorganize the way we store the food,
• 45:13
  or not food, or whatever the supplies are,
• 45:15
  so that it makes it easier for the crew on board to get to it
• 45:18
  and therefore provide a better service to the client,
• 45:21
  to the guest.
• 45:22
  And so that's delivering the wow.
• 45:25
  It's just going above and beyond, working on a problem,
• 45:29
  agonizing over it and coming up with a new and better way.
• 45:33
  And when do you teach that to the person that you're hiring
• 45:37
  and bringing them in?
• 45:38
  Is it from the interview?
• 45:39
  Is it from the first time you ever speak to them?
• 45:41
  Well, that's what culture is all about.
• 45:45
  Yes, we try and search for that and find that
• 45:48
  when we're looking for new people.
• 45:50
  But the best education doesn't come from the top.
• 45:54
  It comes from your coworkers.
• 45:56
  Peer pressure is the best way of things.
• 45:59
  So people talk about bleeding Royal Caribbean blue.
• 46:02
  This is the way we do things.
• 46:04
  It isn't necessarily work harder longer,
• 46:07
  but smarter and with more focus on what you're trying to do.
• 46:11
  And it becomes, frankly, a self-fulfilling prophecy.
• 46:15
  We want to be the employer of choice.
• 46:18
  People here that working at Royal Caribbean is inspirational,
• 46:22
  so we get a better set of resumes to start with.
• 46:27
  And one thing leads to another.
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• 46:34
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• 46:42
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• 46:45
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• 46:47
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• 46:50
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• 46:53
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• 46:54
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• 46:56
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• 46:59
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• 47:01
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• 47:04
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• 47:05
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• 47:09
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• 47:11
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• 47:12
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• 47:14
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• 47:16
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• 47:18
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• 47:20
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• 49:21
  You wrote about even the fact that angry guest letters
• 49:25
  on when people had a negative experience,
• 49:27
  they still mentioned and praised individual crew members.
• 49:33
  Is that something that surprised you?
• 49:36
  Is that I feel like that's not normal.
• 49:38
  I feel like when somebody...
• 49:39
  I'm just thinking, my bad experiences,
• 49:41
  when I have a bad experience,
• 49:43
  maybe I should think about the good
• 49:45
  and the bad experience,
• 49:46
  but usually it's just the bad experience
• 49:48
  sort of blankets everything.
• 49:50
  That's exactly right.
• 49:51
  You know, of course, my wife and I have never argued,
• 49:55
  but when what I hear is that when couples argue,
• 49:59
  you know, you did this wrong and then you did this wrong
• 50:02
  and then you did this wrong and everything is wrong
• 50:05
  and you just get angry.
• 50:07
  And I remember, many years ago,
• 50:11
  I got a particular letter and it really did start out,
• 50:14
  dear Mr. Fein, you are an idiot.
• 50:17
  And your company is terrible
• 50:19
  and everything about you is awful
• 50:21
  and you know, it's kind of expect this
• 50:24
  and then they said, but wait a second,
• 50:26
  I have to tell you that these crew members were extraordinary.
• 50:31
  And that's when I knew,
• 50:33
  I mean, that really brought home to me.
• 50:36
  It's the people that make this special
• 50:39
  and they are so marvelous at that
• 50:44
  that it even overcome this incredibly angry person
• 50:48
  and even they had to balance their complaint
• 50:52
  with complimenting our extraordinary crew members.
• 50:56
  Just because that person or that crew member
• 50:58
  or crew members, they delivered this while.
• 51:00
  They delivered the while and by the way,
• 51:02
  it doesn't have to be exceptional.
• 51:04
  They delivered the while, they were friendly,
• 51:06
  they had a smile, they went that extra mile.
• 51:08
  Instead of saying, oh, you want to know where that shop is,
• 51:13
  it's down the corridor to your left
• 51:15
  and then take your first ride.
• 51:17
  No, they take them there, let me show you
• 51:20
  and just let me walk you to it.
• 51:22
  That takes 30 seconds of your time,
• 51:26
  but that's a wow, it's, but by the way,
• 51:31
  crew members don't think that's a wow.
• 51:32
  They think that's what they do and they do it every time
• 51:36
  and that's what gets people to come back
• 51:38
  and that's what makes our culture so successful
• 51:42
  and our people just so extraordinary, so wonderful.
• 51:47
  For somebody who's listening to this who that resonates with,
• 51:52
  obviously it's not just one thing that has to happen
• 51:55
  to move a company in the right direction,
• 51:57
  but where should that person start,
• 51:59
  that CEO of a company where people do kind of do mediocre,
• 52:02
  half-ass, if somebody asks for help,
• 52:05
  they do the bare minimum, but the company is,
• 52:08
  okay, it's working, however you define working,
• 52:11
  but they want to move it more towards people
• 52:13
  going the extra mile and taking the extra step.
• 52:17
  How do they start moving towards that?
• 52:20
  Well, this isn't something that happens overnight
• 52:23
  and one of the advantages that I've had is,
• 52:28
  I came to a company that already had
• 52:30
  a very excellent-striven culture,
• 52:33
  be I worked with some really extraordinary people
• 52:38
  and we also had alignment and I can't overstate
• 52:41
  how important it was that there was an alignment
• 52:44
  between the board, the top management,
• 52:48
  the executives, et cetera, that this was important
• 52:52
  and it's years and years and years to accomplish that,
• 52:57
  but it has paid off nicely.
• 52:59
  I know that you look at ships
• 53:03
  as sort of this physical manifestation of the culture as well.
• 53:06
  So it's not just the people, but it's the product.
• 53:09
  It's the thing that you deliver to the customer.
• 53:10
  So explain that concept, explain how you take the product
• 53:15
  and you turn that into a physical manifestation
• 53:17
  of this wow culture that all the employees,
• 53:20
  they're all living and breathing this
• 53:22
  and they're all going the extra mile for the guest,
• 53:24
  but how do you actually turn the actual product
• 53:26
  into a manifestation of this?
• 53:28
  You know, again, once you start out and articulate
• 53:34
  this is what we're trying to accomplish.
• 53:37
  The ships, for example, are tools,
• 53:40
  just like a carpenter has certain tools,
• 53:44
  we have certain tools and if you're going to give people
• 53:48
  a vacation, then the ship has to be consistent with that.
• 53:52
  And if you say to yourself,
• 53:54
  one of the things that people want today is more choice
• 53:59
  and the choice isn't good or bad or good or better,
• 54:03
  but maybe I want to go to an Italian restaurant tonight
• 54:06
  and a French restaurant tomorrow.
• 54:09
  Italian food isn't better than French food
• 54:11
  or French food better than Italian, but they're different.
• 54:15
  And at different times I want different things
• 54:17
  and different people want different things.
• 54:19
  And so you start out and say,
• 54:21
  how do I meet my guests needs better?
• 54:26
  And what are those needs?
• 54:27
  What is it they want?
• 54:29
  And if what they want is more choice, they also want beauty.
• 54:35
  I think people enjoy beauty.
• 54:39
  So we put a lot of effort into the artwork on a ship.
• 54:44
  Not because I think our guests or our people think
• 54:47
  our guests are art connoisseurs.
• 54:50
  And nobody takes a role Caribbean cruise
• 54:53
  because it has better art.
• 54:56
  But when you run board, the art enriches you.
• 55:00
  It makes you feel good.
• 55:02
  Beauty is something we all care about.
• 55:05
  And so basically you just break down
• 55:10
  what is it that people are looking for.
• 55:12
  And then you create a passion around everybody
• 55:17
  seeking that objective.
• 55:20
  And I'm very fortunate.
• 55:24
  We're all Caribbean.
• 55:26
  We have people who are really passionate
• 55:28
  about figuring out what will make people happier.
• 55:31
  And we keep getting better at it.
• 55:33
  We learn, we build a ship and everybody says,
• 55:37
  that's extraordinary.
• 55:40
  But the first question we ask is, what can make it better?
• 55:43
  First question, and we've been extraordinary fortunate
• 55:48
  with the ships we built.
• 55:50
  We are widely regarded as designing some wonderful ships.
• 55:54
  But when it comes out, we say, now what could make it even better?
• 55:57
  And what's the next step of that?
• 56:00
  And we've just come out with a number of ships.
• 56:03
  And now we're already saying, the team is now saying,
• 56:08
  what are we going to do next?
• 56:09
  And I know that they're going to come out
• 56:12
  with something that's even better.
• 56:15
  And again, part of continuous improvement
• 56:17
  is not saying, why didn't they come up
• 56:19
  without five years ago?
• 56:21
  The continuous improvement is that's terrific.
• 56:24
  And 10 years from now, we'll obsolete those ships.
• 56:28
  One story that I find incredible is your COVID story.
• 56:33
  Because I don't think that many industries were
• 56:36
  as sidelined as much as the cruise industry was, right?
• 56:39
  So you had zero revenue for 18 months.
• 56:41
  You had 40,000 crew trapped at C, 36 billion in financing.
• 56:47
  Just as a human being, as, like, listen, people,
• 56:52
  I think sometimes forget that CEOs are just people
• 56:55
  at the end of the day.
• 56:57
  How do you navigate that?
• 56:58
  We can talk about, like, you know, the strategy
• 57:01
  of how you navigate it, but how do you,
• 57:03
  as a human being, like navigate it?
• 57:06
  And you still have some hair too.
• 57:07
  That's not easy.
• 57:10
  Certainly one of the more traumatic parts of my life.
• 57:16
  But I think I would actually say the simple solution
• 57:22
  is the people.
• 57:24
  The people in this case would include
• 57:26
  the people I worked with who were as passionate as I
• 57:30
  about making sure that we come out of this properly
• 57:33
  and successfully.
• 57:35
  But the people, in this case, also, who's my family,
• 57:38
  who put up with me and my, you know, one of the problems
• 57:45
  with the pandemic was all the things you talked about
• 57:48
  took an amazing amount of time.
• 57:51
  And so I was immersed from early morning to late at night.
• 57:57
  And my wife, my children, my extraordinary grandchildren,
• 58:01
  my eight extraordinary grandchildren.
• 58:04
  If you'd like, I have pictures.
• 58:06
  But my extraordinary grandchildren were all very supportive.
• 58:13
  I think the fact, this is something else, which
• 58:16
  is not given enough respect in today's corporate world,
• 58:22
  which is the value of experience and longevity.
• 58:26
  The team at Royal Caribbean, we had worked together
• 58:29
  for a long time.
• 58:30
  The average senior officer at Royal Caribbean
• 58:33
  has been there for 15 years or more.
• 58:35
  So we shared the culture.
• 58:40
  The other thing, which I think was very helpful for us,
• 58:42
  was we articulated early on a North Star.
• 58:47
  And it was a North Star, which I think was somewhat unusual
• 58:51
  because most companies that went through trauma
• 58:55
  in very few went through zero revenue.
• 58:58
  Turns out that's a hard way to make money.
• 59:00
  A little bit, right?
• 59:02
  But we started out saying, our issue isn't how we're
• 59:06
  going to get through this.
• 59:08
  Our issue is how we're going to emerge from this,
• 59:11
  because there was never doubt we would emerge, weren't sure when.
• 59:15
  But the issue was, how are we going to emerge from this strong,
• 59:20
  vibrant, and with an amazing future?
• 59:24
  And by the way, we also recognize
• 59:28
  that we can't be alone in this.
• 59:30
  How are we going to come through with this strong?
• 59:33
  How are our travel agent partners going to come through it strong?
• 59:37
  How are employees?
• 59:39
  The suffering was unbelievable.
• 59:42
  And so how are we all going to come through this?
• 59:46
  So that was part of it.
• 59:48
  Now you asked about me personally.
• 59:52
  One of the problems is, which all of us in the senior management
• 59:56
  shared was we had to demonstrate confidence throughout.
• 1:00:03
  You know very well that if you walk around saying, oh,
• 1:00:06
  always me, what am I going to do?
• 1:00:08
  And isn't this terrible that this is happening to us?
• 1:00:12
  The one thing I rejected very early was victimhood.
• 1:00:17
  Why is the cruise industry a victim here?
• 1:00:20
  Well, everybody was a victim of COVID.
• 1:00:22
  The enemy here was COVID.
• 1:00:24
  The enemy here wasn't the government or this or that.
• 1:00:28
  It was COVID.
• 1:00:30
  And as long as we work together, we knew we're going to have a comment.
• 1:00:33
  And one of our jobs, all of us in the management team,
• 1:00:37
  was to express and to show confidence.
• 1:00:43
  So one of the things I did to make sure that I was confident
• 1:00:47
  was I ate a lot.
• 1:00:49
  I really had more chocolate in that two-year period
• 1:00:53
  than any other time in my history.
• 1:00:56
  I had to let my belt out.
• 1:00:57
  I mean, so that helped me.
• 1:01:03
  But I had learned, by the way, again, experience
• 1:01:06
  I had been through other crises in the cruise industry
• 1:01:10
  and learned that if you're going to lead,
• 1:01:13
  you also have to evidence the kind of confidence
• 1:01:21
  and leadership that you hope that all your people share.
• 1:01:26
  So this is not a time to complain, woe with me.
• 1:01:29
  This is a time to say there's opportunities here.
• 1:01:32
  How are we going to take advantage of those opportunities?
• 1:01:35
  One thing that you speak about is that fear makes people stupid,
• 1:01:40
  which I love.
• 1:01:41
  Maybe you shouldn't have said that, but OK, yes, I did.
• 1:01:44
  I don't disagree.
• 1:01:45
  I don't disagree.
• 1:01:46
  I think it does.
• 1:01:47
  Not in a negative way, in a very practical way.
• 1:01:49
  When people are stressed out, they just make bad decisions.
• 1:01:52
  Well, and they become afraid.
• 1:01:56
  And so what they fear is you only fear what's close.
• 1:02:00
  You don't feel somebody, nobody fears what's
• 1:02:02
  going to happen in five years from now, three years from now.
• 1:02:05
  So that fear, focus their attention so much
• 1:02:08
  on the short term that they lose the opportunity
• 1:02:12
  to see the longer term.
• 1:02:13
  So I do believe acting out of fear, I probably shouldn't have
• 1:02:19
  said it, but acting out of fear makes people stupid.
• 1:02:21
  One thing I thought was interesting.
• 1:02:23
  You mentioned that, unlike after 9-11,
• 1:02:27
  we stuck to our guns.
• 1:02:28
  So obviously 9-11, another major crisis period.
• 1:02:32
  And you said, we understood that you
• 1:02:35
  cannot overcommunicate the North Star.
• 1:02:39
  So explain to me, because what that's alluding to it,
• 1:02:42
  I don't want to put words into your mouth.
• 1:02:43
  So correct me for a moment, what you're alluding to there
• 1:02:45
  is the way that you reacted to another catastrophe.
• 1:02:49
  It was not as ideal as how you reacted to COVID,
• 1:02:52
  which COVID actually for the cruise industry
• 1:02:57
  specifically seems like it would actually
• 1:02:59
  be a much harder hit than 9-11 was, considering just
• 1:03:04
  the time that COVID lasted.
• 1:03:06
  So if you're going to look at lessons learned from 9-11
• 1:03:10
  versus what you did with COVID, what
• 1:03:12
  was the major difference in how you sort of navigated
• 1:03:15
  both of those incidents?
• 1:03:17
  Well, Scott, I think your point's a good one.
• 1:03:20
  COVID was multiples of seriousness compared to 9-11.
• 1:03:27
  9-11 was very serious, but it was very clear to me
• 1:03:32
  and to others that 9-11 was a fairly temporary kind
• 1:03:36
  of interruption.
• 1:03:38
  And it wasn't a terrible interruption.
• 1:03:40
  I mean, it was a terrible interruption,
• 1:03:41
  but it wasn't existential.
• 1:03:44
  This is really going to hurt.
• 1:03:47
  And we knew that.
• 1:03:48
  And coming back to where I said, I don't do say in the book,
• 1:03:52
  I don't think we did as well as we could have,
• 1:03:54
  is we knew it, but we didn't communicate it as well.
• 1:03:58
  And so people outside of the inner circle
• 1:04:03
  who were reading the newspapers and hearing
• 1:04:05
  that nobody's ever going to travel again believe that.
• 1:04:09
  And we didn't do enough to give them the confidence
• 1:04:14
  that those papers were wrong.
• 1:04:16
  And so they succumbed to the fear
• 1:04:18
  and then the thousands of decisions that they made
• 1:04:21
  weren't as good as they should have been.
• 1:04:24
  In COVID, we became hyperactive in communicating
• 1:04:30
  to our people, to our travel advisors,
• 1:04:34
  to our suppliers, to our employees, what we knew.
• 1:04:40
  And also to the public.
• 1:04:42
  And so we really worked harder.
• 1:04:45
  And did I think a better job of making sure
• 1:04:49
  that they knew what we knew about what the likely outcomes
• 1:04:54
  were going to be?
• 1:04:55
  And so I think that's one of the lessons from 9-11
• 1:04:58
  was that importance of over-communicating.
• 1:05:01
  I think that's a very important lesson
• 1:05:02
  because I think that too often, sometimes we make
• 1:05:08
  the incorrect assumption just because we believe something,
• 1:05:12
  everyone else is going to believe it.
• 1:05:14
  And I have never hurt a company
• 1:05:18
  or been worse off for over-communicating something.
• 1:05:22
  And then you start to realize like,
• 1:05:23
  oh, maybe not everybody's on the same page as me.
• 1:05:25
  So let's find a way to get on the same page.
• 1:05:28
  What's obvious to me may not be obvious to other people.
• 1:05:33
  And it's possible I'm wrong, in which case,
• 1:05:36
  over-communicating just helps,
• 1:05:38
  because now that we're going to get the feedback
• 1:05:40
  and maybe I'll realize I'm wrong.
• 1:05:42
  But if I'm right, then making sure they see it
• 1:05:47
  overcomes this issue that fear makes people stupid.
• 1:05:50
  And by the way, not having the full information
• 1:05:56
  makes people afraid.
• 1:05:58
  So I think in COVID, that was a key part
• 1:06:02
  of our success in getting through that.
• 1:06:04
  One more thing I thought was an interesting period
• 1:06:08
  of your life and your career.
• 1:06:09
  And obviously, this was huge for real Caribbean
• 1:06:13
  was your transition out of the CEO position after 33 years.
• 1:06:18
  So this is not something that everybody will go through
• 1:06:21
  in their life, being in a management leadership position
• 1:06:24
  for 33 years and trying to find a succession.
• 1:06:27
  But some people, I think, have a hard time
• 1:06:31
  after 33 years finding somebody to take the reins.
• 1:06:34
  How do you pass the reins on to the next person?
• 1:06:38
  How do you, I don't want to say give up control,
• 1:06:40
  but ultimately you get a control.
• 1:06:42
  Yes, it's giving up control.
• 1:06:43
  And what are the lessons that a leader, a CEO
• 1:06:47
  who's listening to this, a founder even,
• 1:06:49
  because I know, well, listen, you weren't the founder,
• 1:06:51
  but you had to take over control from the founder
• 1:06:54
  and then you passed on control to Jason Liberty.
• 1:06:57
  But what are the lessons that you've learned from succession?
• 1:07:00
  How do you make it work properly and not turn into chaos?
• 1:07:04
  Because from what I understand, your CEO transition,
• 1:07:08
  and it sounds like actually the founder transition to you
• 1:07:11
  and then you to Jason, both went relatively well.
• 1:07:15
  So what did you do right?
• 1:07:17
  What do many people do wrong?
• 1:07:19
  First of all, I think the most important part
• 1:07:22
  of the success of my transition to Jason
• 1:07:25
  was that Jason is an extraordinary leader.
• 1:07:28
  He is inspirational, he is knowledgeable,
• 1:07:31
  he is methodical, he is passionate,
• 1:07:33
  he's all the things that you would want in a leader.
• 1:07:36
  And so the most important thing is to have a good leader.
• 1:07:41
  I think, and he and I have worked together for over 20 years
• 1:07:48
  and I think, again, the most important part
• 1:07:51
  of the transition was the new team that took over
• 1:07:54
  under Jason's leadership were just wonderful people.
• 1:07:58
  Jason, the team working for Jason,
• 1:08:01
  the culture in the organization were fantastic.
• 1:08:06
  So I think that was a part of it.
• 1:08:08
  The other was a realization that I care about Royal Caribbean,
• 1:08:13
  I care about the company that I was involved in
• 1:08:18
  and participating in the development of it.
• 1:08:22
  And if you wanted to do well,
• 1:08:27
  the best way is to have good people in place
• 1:08:31
  and let them do it.
• 1:08:33
  It's, I think I have a little bit,
• 1:08:35
  this is, I would actually draw a very strong conclusion
• 1:08:39
  to my own experience with our four children.
• 1:08:44
  Once they go off, they are on their own
• 1:08:48
  and they will make their own mistakes
• 1:08:50
  and they make, they do some things
• 1:08:55
  which I just say, oh my God, how could they do that?
• 1:08:58
  They do other things where I say, oh my God,
• 1:09:01
  how come I never thought to do that?
• 1:09:03
  And so, but the one thing that you know,
• 1:09:09
  I mean, obviously I studied this before making the transition,
• 1:09:12
  the one thing that you know that doesn't work
• 1:09:15
  is second guessing.
• 1:09:16
  And there's no such thing as a clone.
• 1:09:20
  Jason Liberty is a very different person than I am,
• 1:09:25
  but he's terrific at what he does.
• 1:09:28
  And so, I think that's the part that has made it all successful.
• 1:09:35
  And I look at that.
• 1:09:37
  The other thing I would say is,
• 1:09:40
  and this is an important part of it,
• 1:09:42
  I look at it with pride.
• 1:09:44
  His success is my success.
• 1:09:47
  You know, he is building, just as my children's success,
• 1:09:51
  even when they make all the mistakes they make.
• 1:09:54
  And if they're listening, I want my children to know
• 1:09:56
  that they've made lots and lots of mistakes.
• 1:09:58
  And I'm prepared if they ask me
• 1:10:01
  to point out every single one of those mistakes,
• 1:10:04
  but their success and my children,
• 1:10:11
  each of my children has been successful in their own rights.
• 1:10:15
  And each of them is very different than me.
• 1:10:17
  And now that I see my extraordinary grandchildren growing,
• 1:10:21
  I'm thrilled every one of them is just better than the other.
• 1:10:24
  And again, if you want, I can tell you more about them,
• 1:10:29
  but they're doing it their way.
• 1:10:32
  What worked for me doesn't necessarily work for them,
• 1:10:35
  but they have to do it,
• 1:10:37
  and I can't be prouder to see how the team at Royal Caribbean
• 1:10:42
  is doing and how the company continues
• 1:10:44
  to go from strength to strength.
• 1:10:45
  I love it.
• 1:10:46
  I mean, what does it feel to let something go after 33 years?
• 1:10:49
  You know, it's an interesting thing.
• 1:10:52
  On one hand, I miss aspects of it.
• 1:10:56
  I loved going to work every single day, literally,
• 1:11:00
  even in the worst of the times.
• 1:11:03
  It was thrilling to go to work
• 1:11:05
  because of the people I worked with
• 1:11:07
  and to deal with problems like that.
• 1:11:10
  But now I deal with different things,
• 1:11:11
  and that's just as thrilling.
• 1:11:13
  And so actually, now I'm getting the best of both worlds.
• 1:11:17
  I get to see Royal Caribbean thrive,
• 1:11:21
  and I get to do other things that I love doing.
• 1:11:24
  The book, delivering the wow culture is a catalyst
• 1:11:26
  for lasting success.
• 1:11:28
  That's available this October,
• 1:11:30
  and it'll be available whenever this drops,
• 1:11:32
  because I think that when this is going live,
• 1:11:34
  you can get that book anywhere you get books, Amazon, et cetera.
• 1:11:37
  Yes, and the pre-orders are available today.
• 1:11:40
  Is there anywhere else that you want to send people
• 1:11:41
  or just go look at that book, find it on Amazon, go get it.
• 1:11:46
  Just go wherever you go that any bookstore will have it.
• 1:11:50
  You can pre-order it.
• 1:11:51
  And I do point out that all any of the proceeds for me
• 1:11:57
  go to a scholarship fund for the children
• 1:12:00
  of Royal Caribbean employees.
• 1:12:02
  I have to give that a plug,
• 1:12:03
  because I think education is so important,
• 1:12:07
  and to be able to give a little back to the families
• 1:12:11
  of the people that have made Royal Caribbean
• 1:12:14
  so successful to me is very important.
• 1:12:16
  If people read this book,
• 1:12:18
  we've gone through a whole bunch of ideas
• 1:12:19
  that have really helped Royal Caribbean grow over your tenure,
• 1:12:25
  and we'll continue to help it grow.
• 1:12:27
  But if you wanted them to read this book
• 1:12:29
  and just take one key lesson away,
• 1:12:31
  what would that one key lesson be
• 1:12:33
  or the most important idea that you want to leave them with?
• 1:12:35
  So I probably will refuse to come up with one,
• 1:12:38
  because I'm not sure I can do that.
• 1:12:42
  But I think the two things are the focus on people,
• 1:12:48
  the people are what makes the difference people
• 1:12:53
  are what make you successful.
• 1:12:55
  And how do you get the most out of people
• 1:12:57
  without damaging anything?
• 1:13:01
  And the importance of long-term thinking,
• 1:13:04
  I think we are so calibrated these days
• 1:13:08
  to focus on next month, next year.
• 1:13:11
  And I certainly know as a CEO,
• 1:13:15
  I often said that nothing I was going to do
• 1:13:18
  would make any difference for the next 12 to 24 months
• 1:13:22
  at any point in time.
• 1:13:23
  And you've just, it's hard to think of that long-term future
• 1:13:27
  because our society has moved much more short-term.
• 1:13:31
  Last thing I wanted to ask you,
• 1:13:33
  you've given over lots of wisdom,
• 1:13:34
  but if you could go back and tell your 20-year-old self,
• 1:13:37
  one piece of advice, what would that piece of advice be?
• 1:13:40
  Ask Colleen for her hand in marriage earlier.
• 1:13:43
  That's your advice, but say you only wanted to pass on
• 1:13:46
  one piece of wisdom to your kids or your grandkids.
• 1:13:50
  What would that piece of advice be that's helped you the most?
• 1:13:52
  It could be business or it could just be
• 1:13:53
  something that's really helped you in your life.
• 1:13:55
  Don't let short-term things bother you as much.
• 1:13:59
  Don't look back.
• 1:14:02
  Particularly if you're on a longer-term course,
• 1:14:05
  keep in mind the longer term,
• 1:14:07
  and accept that there are going to be bad things
• 1:14:11
  that happen along the way.
• 1:14:12
  And don't look back, accept them.
• 1:14:16
  This happened, but it isn't going to take me off of my path.
• 1:14:20
  I think even when people try and think long-term,
• 1:14:24
  something bad happens and it always does, always.
• 1:14:29
  But don't let that bother you.
• 1:14:32
  Say, okay, that was a distraction.
• 1:14:35
  That's not the substance.
• 1:14:38
  That's not going to change where I'm trying to be
• 1:14:40
  three years from now, five years from now.
• 1:14:43
  And if you can do that, and it's not easy,
• 1:14:46
  but train yourself to do that,
• 1:14:48
  and it will make your life both more fun and more successful.