Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Exploring History and Adventure with Susan Dragoo

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Exploring History and Adventure with Susan Dragoo · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I am
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: your host, Scott Brady, and I am joined by a
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: great friend and one of the regular contributors to Overland Journal,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Susan Dragooth. Susan, thank you so much for being on
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: the podcast with me today. Thanks for having me, Scott,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: absolutely so. We have lots of fun things to talk about.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: We've been enjoying a couple of days here in Oklahoma
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: doing some training with Bill and learning a little bit
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: about adventure motorcycles. Tavia's learning some about riding motorcycles off road,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: and I know that motorcycles and vehicles have been a
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: rich part of your time together, but I really want
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: to learn more about you. You were just featured in
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: the fall issue of Overland Journal, where you were featured
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: as one of our modern Explorers, and a lot of
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: that came about because of your passion for history. And
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: it's something that I think many Overlanders appreciate, is the
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: idea of learning more about where we came from, learning
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: more about the places, the history of the places that
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: we're visiting. I mean, for me personally, I love nothing
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: more than buying a history book about the country that
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: I'm about to visit and then I read it on
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: the plane on my way over. It's just something that
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: I like to do. I like to learn a little
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: bit about the culture and about how they live their
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: life and maybe the things that I can avoid doing
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: that might be considered offensive, or things that I could
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: do that might be considered, you know, endearing or kind
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: to someone in a place that you're visiting. How would
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: you say that the pursuit of history and knowledge about
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: historical events and places really kind of rooted itself in you.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: The special thanks to Hunekook Dona Pro Tires for supporting
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: this week's podcast. Visit expedition Portal dot com to see
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: content series in partnership with Hankook, where you learn about
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: this year's Jeep Beach event in Daytona, Florida, get tips
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: on exploring the O'calla National Forest, and take a tour
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: of the Motorsports Hall of Fame of America at the
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Daytona International Speedway. We also take a close look at
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: how to choose a mud terrain, all terrain or a
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: hybrid rugged terrain tire using the Hankok Guina Pro Tire
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: lineup as examples.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: As a child, my grandfather was immersed in history, and
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: I was around my grandparents a great deal, and I
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: just I think I acquired a lot of that from
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: listening to him. Sure, And as I got older, I
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: was I was an avid reader in high school. I
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: would go to the public library and pick up biographies
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: and various histories, just reading on my own. And so
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: it started very young. And as I've gotten older, and
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: especially in the last fifteen years or so, I've had
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: the time to really indulge that and to go out
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: and put the history together with the outdoor adventures. And
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: so that's that has inspired me to dig even further
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: into history.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: And that's something I've noticed about your work. I mean,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: you just one of your more recent books, which you've
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: You've put together some great not only great articles, but
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: books through the years. But your recent book was about
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: the butter or is about the Butterfield Trail. And that's
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: one of the things that I found really exceptional about
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: your interest in history is that it's not just I mean,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: for me, I find an interest in history, like I
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: enjoy learning about history, but for you, you've actually been
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: working as a historian in the traditional sense of that
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: you want to find out things that people haven't figured
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: out that you want to dig into the records and
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: fill in the blank spaces in the story. So let's
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit like specifically about the Butterfield Trail.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Tell the listener, what is the Butterfield Trail, where is
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: it located, where does it go to and from, and
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: what really sparked your passion for that particular trail.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: Yes, it's the Butterfield is a twenty eight hundred mile
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: long stagecoach route that originated in eighteen fifty eight. At
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: that time, the United States had just acquired most of
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: what is west of Oklahoma, so at that point in time,
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: the whole of the continent was part of the United States,
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: and that triggered a great desire to connect the two
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: coasts for communication and for transportation. So everyone looked at
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: that as well, we need a railroad, and everybody agreed
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: that a railroad was really needed. However, the decision about
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: where to put the railroad was very difficult because of
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: sectionalism over slavery. So the north one of the railroad
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: in the north, the South and the South, and they
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: could not agree. And as it was, the Transcontinental Railroad
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: wasn't completed until after the Civil War, but in the
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: meantime because they needed a more efficient way of delivering
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: the mail. In particular, it had been going by steamship
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: down the Atlantic Coast, across Panama, over land on Panama,
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: and then up the Pacific coast to San Francisco, a
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  Speaker 3: very long and could be sometimes dangerous journey. So a
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: more efficient route was needed, and in eighteen fifty seven,
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  Speaker 3: Congress finally said, Okay, we're going to fund this postal
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: route by stage coach, and it's got to be done
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  Speaker 3: within a year. It's got to be ready to go
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: within a year, and the stage coach has to get
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: across the country into twenty five days or less.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Oh wow.
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: And so it was. It was a huge thing at
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: the time.
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  Speaker 3: It was really really welcomed, especially by the people in
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: California who had migrated out there for the gold rush
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: or to support the gold rush, and so it was.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: It was a very positive thing from the standpoint of
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: the people at the time, except that the choice to
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: put it in the South was not welcomed by everyone.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: As you can imagine, it was very very close to
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: the Civil War when this all happened, and the route
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: ended up being from Saint Louis, Missouri down on a
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: very steep angle south to El Paso, Texas, and then
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: across the southern border of the United States California and
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: from Los Angeles to San Francisco. So it was it
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: was often called the Southern Route or the Oxbow.
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: Route because of its curved shape.
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: So it ran from It was very successful, ran from
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: eighteen fifty eight to eighteen sixty one, and it was
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: although it was looked upon as a precursor to the railroad,
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: it was successful in its own right, and they carried
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: a lot of passengers, and those passengers left a lot
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: of really colorful first person accounts of their travels, which
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: has really contributed to our understanding of the region at
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: that time.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: And was that contemporary to the Pony Express.
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: The Pony Express came into being during the life of
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: the Butterfield, but it.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: Was on the more northern route, which was called the
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: Central Route, and it only was operating I think a year,
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: very short period of time for how.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Much notoriety it still has.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and they were in a sense with the Pony
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: Express testing that route. It was actually approximately the route
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: where the Transcontinental State Transcontinental Railroad ended up going okay, Yeah,
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: farther north.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: And when was the railroad completed eighteen sixty nine, okay,
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  Speaker 1: and is that kind of what wrapped up most of
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: the Butterfield stage route, Yeah, the benefits.
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: Actually, the Butterfield stage route on the southern route was
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: ended in March of eighteen sixty one, and that was
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: a couple of reasons, partly because it wasn't a financial
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: success from the postal service perspective, but probably a bigger
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: factor was that there were difficulties with secessionists in Texas
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: who were harassing the stagecoaches. Oh they were going through
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: Texas so as it was just on the eve of
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: the Civil War.
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  Speaker 4: And finally in March of.
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  Speaker 3: Eighteen sixty one, they moved it to the Central Route,
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: the same route as the Pony Express and the railroad,
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: so it was moved to the north and close down
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: in this part of the country.
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  Speaker 1: So from the overlanders perspective, how much well, first of all,
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: how much of the entirety of the route have you done?
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: And then the second question would be how much of
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: that route is still would still be of interest to
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: overlanders because I know you've done some long sections of
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: dirt on.
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  Speaker 3: That as well, so the Oklahoma section is two hundred
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  Speaker 3: miles and I have done that many, many times over
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: the last nine years, and a majority of.
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  Speaker 4: It is dirt roads, is very rural.
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  Speaker 3: It's really fun to be out there and not hard
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  Speaker 3: to imagine that you're one hundred and fifty years in
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: the past.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Wow.
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  Speaker 4: So it's not difficult.
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  Speaker 3: And there are a lot of segments of the trail
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  Speaker 3: that are on private property that run adjacent to the
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: county roads. So when you're on the county road, you
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: might not be exactly on the Stage Goes route. It's
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: an approximation, but it's always a county road. And I've
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: done the Arkansas segment of the trail, which is beautiful.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: I've not really done much in Missouri, a little bit
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  Speaker 3: in Texas, and there's a lot that is in Arizona
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: in New Mexico.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Oh yeah, how far south does
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: the Butterfield go? Oh you know, actually I do. I
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: do remember driving there's actually a really beautiful part of
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: the Butterfield Stage round. I just remembered it just this moment.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: That's just south of Phoenix, and I've driven that and
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: it's gorgeous. Those mountains are stunning. So Bill, and you
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: make it to Arizona, let's go do part of that.
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: That'd be great together, that'd be really fair. That would
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: be a.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: Lot of those segments are drivable and like you said,
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: and inaccessible on public land. That's one of the challenges
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: in Oklahoma is that most of it is on private land.
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: But another great segment is near Guadalupe Peak in Texas, Okay.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: And there was an article in Overland Journal before I
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: did my article on the Indian Territory segment that was
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: I think John Solberg was one of the ardors where
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: they did part of that Guadaloupe Peak segment, and that
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: sounds like a really good segment to do. There are
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: some really fun places to go for overlanders well, and
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: it makes you.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: Think about, you know, really wonderful trails like the Trans
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: America Trail. Of course, you know you can do almost
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: the majority of it is on the dirt, but it
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  Speaker 1: doesn't it's not a historically significant route because it was
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: put together in the last twenty years or so, whereas
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: if you can piece together, like you think about routes
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: like the Route sixty six or the Butterfield is another
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: one that comes to mind. That you know, like when
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: we leave here on the motorcycles, maybe we go take
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: all these new found skills riding on the dirt and
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: go run a section of the butterfield. That'd be kind
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: of fun. That'd be kind of fun.
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So what would you say for you is your favorite
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: part of the route that you've done that you would
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: recommend in Overlander to do.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: I'd recommend the route or the segment between Spiro, Oklahoma,
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: which is the easternmost station.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: There were twelve relay.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: Stations in Oklahoma and from there down to a Tooka,
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: So that's about one hundred twenty five miles and most
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: of it is dirt nice, and part of it goes
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: through the Atoka Wildlife Management Area. And actually I have
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: mapped out some of those segments that are on the
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: wildlife management area not on a county road. There are
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: still some really good segments there.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: And there are some segments that are hikable as well,
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: and those.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: Are few and far between.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: But there's an area in near Atoka that is a
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: reservoir and it was inundated in nineteen fifty nine and
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: around it is a short leaf pine and post oak
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: forest old growth it's part of the ancient cross Timbers,
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: and it's very difficult to get to, although it's on
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: public land, and there are some just pristine segments of
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: the trail over there, So if you're intrepid enough to
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: hike around.
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: To it, which is kind of a.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: Challenge, or just get in the boat and go across
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: the lake to it, you can see some really good
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: segments there.
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  Speaker 1: And what would you say, has been a couple of
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: the real surprises, like have you come across some artifacts
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: in your travels that really surprised you? Or were there
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: some historical findings that felt really maybe surprised you or
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: delighted you in your research?
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: Oh? Yes, all of that.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: One of the things that I've learned is that there
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: are so many physical remnants of the trail still there
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: after one hundred and seventy years, and those are wells
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: and walled springs and have.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: To be watering those horses so regularly.
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: That's right, that's right.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: There are cisterns and cellars and the rubble of foundations
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: of the stations, some of them.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Are any of the stations still intact.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: There's not an actual official station still intact, but there
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: is one structure along the road that was a meal stop.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: There was a log cabin and it is still there,
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: which is so unusual because they usually burn down. Sure,
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: and it is still there. It's called the Edwards Store, Okay,
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: and it's a great place to stop.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: And it's being restored.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Oh amazing.
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's a really neat art of fact.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: And then what were some of the historical foundings findings?
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Because if I remember correctly, there were actually some things
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: that you discovered that had not been discovered by any historian.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: That you filled in some of the gaps in the story. Yeah,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: so tell us a little bit about what you found.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: One of the fun stories that I learned more about
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: and made a bit of a discovery on was the
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: one that took place at a station called Mountain Station.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: It's in Latimer County, Oklahoma, and it's on top of
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: a mountain hill and it relates to the inventor Edward
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: my Bridge, who originated stop motion photography. And he also
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: invented a device called the zoopraxiscope, which was the precursor
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: to the motion picture projector.
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: Oh wow, so he.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: Is called some times the grandfather of motion pictures. Well,
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: he was involved in an accident there. But the history
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: books and the biographies of Edward my Bridge say that
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: his accident was in Texas, and so I did some
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: research and learned that actually it was in Indian territory
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: and not in Texas. So that was kind of a
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: nice thing to discover because the interesting thing about it
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: is that it was the only it was a very
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: bad stagecoach accident that took place there, and everybody was
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: injured and one person died, and it was the only
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: accident in the entire life of the overland mail route
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: where there was a passenger death. But the other thing
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: is that my Bridge, who was severely injured in the accident,
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: was believed to have and so changed by this head
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: injury that it may have prompted some of his eccentricity
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: is risk taking and his creativity and contributed to his
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: ultimate inventiveness.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: So sometimes it just takes a good kick to the head, yeah,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: to change your life. Yeah.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: He was a very interesting character.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So that was an interesting thing and a story
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: that's fun to tell, even though it's sad for the
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: people who were injured in the man who died. But
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: there's another one that my research has continued. I you know,
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: I published the book about a year ago.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: But let's let the listener know. What's the full name
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: of the.
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: Book, Finding the Butterfield, A Journey through time in Indian Territory.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, And it focuses primarily on Oklahoma, if I understand.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it focuses on the two hundred mile segment that
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: went through Indian Territory and specifically it went through the
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: Choctaw Nation and a small part of the Chickasaw Nation.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: And in my work, it's been great to work with
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: the folks from the Choctawn and Chickasaw nations in the
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: research and we've got a great cooperative relationship in that
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: and they're engaged in amazing this work as well.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: That's we're going to pivot the conversation a little bit
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: because as I understand, you started you started your life
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: living on a reservation, is that correct? Or near one?
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: Well, it's what they call now a reservation since there
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: have been a Supreme Court decision that the reservations were
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: never dissolved. So I'm from Oak Maulgi, Oklahoma, which is
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: the capital of the Creek Nation. So I actually lived
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: in what was the Creek Nation and it's it's not
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: truly a reservation in the sense that we would generally
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: think of a reservation. And when I was growing up,
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: it was I mean, it was just where I lived in.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's just a town, and the Creek Indians
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: or other Native Americans who I grew up with were
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: just you know, my friends or people I went to
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: church with, or I mean, it was sure, there was
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: not they didn't live someplace else.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: And that's because eastern.
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: Oklahoma was an area where assimilation of the tribes took
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: place very early after statehood, and so by that time,
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: it was, you know, they.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: Were There was just no difference.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: But there's a beautiful Creek Council House in the center
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: of town that we certainly take pride in, and it
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: was it's always been a source of pride to live
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: in the capital of the Cree Nations.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would think so. Yeah, and what kind of
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: kicked off your interest in because I'd like to dig
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: into some of the hiking and trekking that you do,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: including your hike up to the Everest Base camp. But
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about like what what sparked
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: your interest and then ultimately a lifelong passion in exploring
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: the outdoors. Is it just because you grew up in
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Oklahoma or what were the things that were your parents
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: really into that kind of thing or what kicked it
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: all off for you?
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: They really weren't.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: When I was a kid though, I lived on the
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: edge of town, and my friends and I would go
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: out and just explore in the woods. I mean we
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: just ran around in the woods a little bit feral. Huh, Well,
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: we'd go home at I but yeah, so we would
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: just go across some fence. We weren't worried about anybody
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: getting onto this. It just wasn't a concern and explore.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: And so that was something I was very comfortable with,
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: just being out and with Sometimes I would go by myself.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: I was I was a loner to some degree. My
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: daughter in law keeps asking.
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: Me, didn't you do band or didn't you do you.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: Know this or that, because my grandchildren are very involved
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: in the extra extracurricular activities, and say, no, I just
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: went to the library.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: And I've always You've always impressed me very much as
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: an intellectual, and you you're a voracious reader, Like even
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: in the last couple of days we've all spent together.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: You and I've tossed a bunch of different books recommendations
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: back and forth to each other. And I do find
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: that there's often a correlate between people who are adventurous
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: travelers and people that are readers. That's not always the case.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: There are certainly voracious readers that choose not to engage
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: as much in their own physical discovery, but they discover
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: constantly through books. But there I do find that there
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: are people where there's that crossover, and it's fairly common
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: in the in the overland community that you end up
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: with these people that are passionate about history, They're passionate
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: about cultures different from their own, about reading, about seeing
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: the world, And so talk us through a little bit
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: about like how did that happen? How did you get
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: to the point where you're trekking to Everest Base Camp
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: and hiking across Iceland and exploring the world, Like, help
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: us go through that process that you went through.
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: Well, I really started with hiking. It's probably been twenty
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: years ago.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: I was always outdoors and locking and everything, but it
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: started kind of small. There was an outdoor adventure store
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: here in Norman called Backwoods and the manager there started
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: a little hiking club perfect Yeah, and so we started
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: going hiking with them, and I kind of took you know,
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: grew from that and began hiking all around Oklahoma and
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: finding more and more trails I wanted to do. And
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: I became very, very familiar with Oklahoma because at that
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: time I was also doing scenic photography for the Oklahoma
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: Tourism Department. So I would go out to a state
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: park and do photography of the park for them to
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: use in the lodges for the guest room. And so
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: I did I don't know, five or six state parks
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: and through that, I mean, I'm out hiking and taking
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: pictures and I'm getting paid for it.
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: What could be better?
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So over the years, that's one of the things
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: that really got.
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: Me immersed in hiking in this region.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: And then started, oh gosh, it's been again, I don't know,
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: sixteen seventeen years, started backpacking, started doing long trails. My
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: friend Mary McDaniel has been my hiking partner throughout all
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: of this, and many other people, but we hiked the
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: Washitaw Trail together. It's the only long distance trail that
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: is in Oklahoma. Starts in the eastern part of the
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: state and goes all the way to Little Rock, Arkansas.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: And so we backpacked that over a few years, you know,
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: a section at a time, and then we backpacked the
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: Ozark Highlands Trail in Arkansas. And so I really got
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: into backpacking and began looking for other adventures, other hiking adventures,
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: because I just love to hike. Hiking is just a big,
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: big passion for me. So I guess I'm stating the obvious,
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: there aren't I be. In twenty twelve, Backwoods, the store
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: that had the Hiking Club, they had this Ultimate Outsider
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: contest and the winner would get a trip to every
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: Space Camp Wow, because it was one of the tours
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: they offered. Sure, and so I signed Bill up to
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: be the Ultimate Outsider because he was so you know,
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: doing all these cool outdoor things into motorcycles and all
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: the things. Yep, So I signed him up for that.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: I said, guess what, I signed you up for this contest. Well,
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: he ended up kind of he tied with this other guy,
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: but he had put so much into it and it
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: was such a close decision that they went ahead and
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: gave him the trip. And so that was what got
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: us into that ever.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: Space Camp trip.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: I just I just yeah, I thought, well, here's a
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: chance to go hike to Everston base Camp.
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: Let's go do that.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: Yes, And so they I had to pay for my trip,
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: but I think I got a discount anyway, But it
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: was a bargain and it was quite an adventure.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: And what were some I mean, what an incredible place
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: in the world to go see and just and you
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: you came in from the Nepalese side, or you come
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: in from the Tibetan side. Okay, So now what were
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: some of the takeaways and experiences from that? Because so
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: many people are fascinated by Everest, what were some of
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: your learnings just because that's what fourteen thousand feet at
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: base camp or seventeen gotcha?
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I learned that that is a very high elevation.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: I am prone to a cute mountain sickness, and I
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: learned that I could get there, and I did, but
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: that it really took a lot and had a great
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: guide who made sure that I took it slow. And
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: did you know, if I were to feel too badly
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: then then he would have sent me back down. But
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: that's one of the things I really learned is how
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: severe altitude.
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: Sickness can be. Sure Bill wasn't bothered by it.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: It depends on that depends on the person.
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but it was.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: It was spectacular and it was It's probably the most
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: challenging thing I've ever done. And I think not because
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: of the hiking, because the hiking wasn't that hard, but
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: the elevation is just it's such.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: A challenge, so taxing.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so taxing, and and it was cold, and
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: we went in late October. It was but it was
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: just the fact that we were there was so amazing.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: And is that kind of is October kind of the
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: end of the climbing season, Yeah, gotcha.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: When we were at gork Shep, which is the last
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: lodging before you get to base camp, and we're staying
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: in a tea house there and there were always all
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: these climbers there and people. Yeah, it was just fascinating
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: that the people were just fascinating and the culture and
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: it was but it was, it was it was physically
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: very challenging.
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: Bill and I both lost a lot.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: Of weight just from I mean, at that altitude, my
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: appetite is gone and it's and you know, at the
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: same time, your body is just kind of eating itself
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: from not having enough oxygen. So but I would, I mean,
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: I'm so glad we did it. It's it's definitely a
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: once in a lifetime thing.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no question. And you've done a lot of overland
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: journeys around the world, you know, as has Bill. But
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: what were what were some of your favorite vehicle based
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: adventures because you have a motorcycle license and you've driven
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: four drives all over the place, and what were some
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: of your highlights of your overland journeys.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: Gosh, one of them, that is one of my favorite
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: trips ever, was our trip to Baja in oh was
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: it twenty eighteen?
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Maybe we ran into you, that's right, you sure did. Yeah,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: that's what we had. We had a lunch at a
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: canteena or something along the way, yeah, right.
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: We were in our Tacoma and it was all set up.
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: It was. It was so great, and we camped along
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: the way.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: And one of the things that was so neat about
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: that trip was after we talked to you, you you
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: had some ideas of suggestions about looking at the missions. Yeah,
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: and so we ended up making that our theme was
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: looking for missions, and in fact, I wrote an article
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: about it for Overland Journal and so that was so
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: fun finding those old missions. And yeah, we did that,
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: rode out to Santa Maruso. But what I didn't write
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: about was the secret that you that you kind of
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: hinted about but didn't only tell us, but I thought,
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: I thought, I'm going to see if I can figure
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: that out. And it was Mission Santa Maria.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's right.
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: And we went to Mission Santa Maria and that was
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: so incredible. Yeah, I love that. I mean it was
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: such a difficult road, yes, and but we we got
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: down there in camp down there, and it was it
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: was so eerie in a way.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Because you were all alone. I mean, they call it
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Mission Impossible for a reason. It's very difficult. It's very
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: very difficult to get down in there. And I did
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: the same trip. I wonder if you guys would have
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: been behind us, because we probably did that down into there,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe around the seventh or eighth of January.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know how long you guys were down.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: I think you were ahead of us, got it, Yeah,
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: because we were we were heading down and I think
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: maybe you were heading back up.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: At the time. Yeah, because I only went Yeah, I
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: only went as far south as Total Santos and then
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: came around.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we went down as far as Laredo.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that was as far as we went. Nice.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was That was really one of my favorite trips.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: And no, my other favorite place just to go anywhere
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: to overland is just the desert southwest, endless, endless, yeah, endless.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: And so for overlanding, that's been great. We did We
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: just did an overlanding trip in Iceland and that was
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: a lot of fun.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: We got hired some land land rovers, hired.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: Some land rovers and we we drove Fiord roads and
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: because we went up to the Westfjords region and just
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: drove up and down these roads and it was it
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: was a lot of fun. I've been to Iceland twice
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: before hiking, and so this was a completely different region.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Willful, what a beautiful country. It's just so
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: stunning there. What time of year did you go.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: It was at the end of July.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, got it. So you had that pretty much
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day of sunlight.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think we saw darkness. I mean, of
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: course we had shades for the windows and so on.
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: It got it. You know how it is.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: The sun drops just below the horizon, so there's a
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: little bit of light and before it comes back out.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: But it's such a fascinating part of the world. So
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: you've had a very successful career, and then you've also
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: over the last couple decades just really focused on your
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: photography and on the written word. I thought it would
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: be interesting to talk a little bit about what you've
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: learned as a photojournalist, Like how would if someone was
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: to sit you down and say, Susan, I would love
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: to write for Overland Journal or I'd love to write
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: for another magazine. I mean, you've written a lot for
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Outdoor by four, an Overland Journal, and many other publications,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: plus your own published books. If you were to if
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: a young person was to sit down with you and say,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: I'd love to make that a career, what advice would
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: you give them? What tips would you give them? What
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: things should they be looking for to kind of reach
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: that level?
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: Well, two things come to my mind. First of all,
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: if you don't have the photography, then it's your writing.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: You might be great, but you need good photographs to
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: make that happen. So, especially for overly in journal and
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: that's my standard.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, the number of articles. Even today, we had
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: an editorial meeting and we probably had ten queries and
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: only three of them were approved. And the majority of
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: the reasons why the other ones weren't approved is that
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: their photography wasn't up to standard. And it's one of
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: those things that I think is so difficult to Like,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: you can work with someone on their writing, like you
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: could say like, oh, look your grammar in this situation
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: or whatever, elaborate on this story, but with photography, it's
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: almost like you're telling someone that they don't have style
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: or that they can't dress themselves with style or whatever,
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: and people they really take it personally. And I think
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: it's that photography always feels it always seems like your
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: photography is great when you're taking photos of things and
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: experiences that you've had, because you get all of the
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: richness that comes from that you had your own experience.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: You felt the cold air coming off of the waterfall,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: or you were in the white out conditions, or you
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: were standing there at that beautiful lake. But a lot
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: of the reasons why people's photography don't work out is
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: that they take a photograph of that beautiful lake at
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: eleven o'clock in the morning or at three o'clock in
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: the afternoon, and you've got to work with a light
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: to your advantage. And so what I always recommend to
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: people is if people other than your mom are actively
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: telling you that you have beautiful photographs, then you're probably
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: ready to start doing some submissions. But you can't use
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: yourself as a judge of the quality of your photographs.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: You've really got to get feedback from others. Talk to
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: photographers that you admire and have them give you some
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: feedback on your work, and just be really open to
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: growing as a photographer. And photography is a very nuanced skill,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: as you know from all the places you've photograph done
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: photography in the world. So yeah, that's a really good
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: point about the photos, the number of submissions that we
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: get that Portina has to tell all these people that
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: her photos didn't meet she's braver than I am.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's it's in fact, wanting to contribute to
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: Overland Journal has had a big influence online photography, So
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: that's that's been a real opportunity for improvement over time.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: And I and you've got to you've got to be
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: getting out and doing things at the time of day
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: where you can get.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: That good light.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: The other thing that I would tell people is to
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: that you've got to have the adventure. And because I
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: was a copy editor for a couple of magazines for
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: quite a long time, and we would get these articles that,
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: you know, they weren't well written, but if it was
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: a good story, we could rewrite it. We could fix
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: that to a large degree. And so if there's a
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: good story, just do your best and then learn from
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: the feedback that you get. And it's a lot better
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: as an editor if you get really good quality writing.
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: But sometimes you don't want to let go of a
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: really good story.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: And we'll do that. We'll we'll work with the contributor
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: to continue to craft a better told story. But it
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: has to start with a great experience. And I think
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: you're right, is that when someone goes on a big
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: trip or a vacation or whatever, like that experience was
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: so meaningful to them, but no one else wants to
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: know about the croissant that you had for breakfast, Like
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: we've all had a great croissant. We don't want to
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: know that. You know, you finally got to see the
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: wing victory in the louver and it changed your life
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: and everything, like we all like, you have to tell
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: us what went wrong? How did it change you as
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: a person? Tell me about that interaction that you had
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: with the local when they brought you into their home
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: and then you ended up fixing their tire in the morning.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Tell us about the experience, like what you'll learned and
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: how you changed you as you went along, not what
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: you had for lunch. Like people just don't care. They
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: don't it doesn't it doesn't matter to them. Yeah.
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And the other thing is to.
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: Review the work that's recently been published in that magazine,
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: to not repeat something that has already been there or
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: just there's so many cliched things in motorcycle magazines.
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: It's why I ride.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, another story about why I ride. And I
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: mean that's great that it's you know, trying to find
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: something that hasn't been done. Yes, And that's been something
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: that I have worked at, especially as I've combined the
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: history with the travel, finding a trail that hasn't been
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: retraced in the last one hundred years and finding things
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: that are historical treasures that I can talk about.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: And so there's something new.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: It becomes a treasure hunt when I'm out doing it,
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: and I want that treasure hunt to be part of
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: the story, and.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: People are fascinated by that idea of a treasure hunt.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Chris Collard was always so great at that in Overland
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Journal because he loved those old like the Applegate Lasson Trail,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: and he would dig into the history and he really
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: loved he loved being a part of traveling a historic route,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: and I think people resonate with that.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: I think, in fact, his work helped inspire some of
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: what Bill and I have done. And the first historic
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: trail that we did was in the area called Commancharia
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: and it was inspired specifically by sc Wind's book The
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: Empire of the Summer Moon. Oh sure, so we realized
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: that this is all right here in our backyard. And
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: having seen but what Chris had done with some of
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: the historic trails, we got out and explored the Commandity
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: Trails and wrote about them, and so that was kind
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: of a kickoff to some of the.
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: Historic trail work.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: That's funny because his early trips down Baja were totally
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: an inspiration to my early trips. Yeah, so's He's inspired
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: many throughout the years no question about that. Let's talk
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: a little bit about books, because it is something that
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: I introduce in mini podcasts, especially if I know the
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: person that i'm interviewing loves to read. But why don't
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: you share some of your favorite books, a couple of
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: them that come to mind, and then we'll talk a
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: little bit more about the other ones that you've done.
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: So.
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: Oh, okay, I have been into I read mostly nonfiction,
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: although I am reading a novel now, thriller by Preston
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: and Child, a kind of a guilty pleasure.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: That's okay, everybody's got one.
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: I really like the Arctic and Antarctic Adventures and others
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: see adventures, and I read all of those I can
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: get my hands on. And I recently read The Wager
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: by David Grant.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Unreal.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that was really a good way unbelievable. Yeah.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: And he also the exact opposite of Shackleton.
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: For those that are listening, like if you just throw
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: it on an audiobook on your truck while you're driving
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: to your next adventure, listen to the Wager. It's unbelievable.
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: It's really really good.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: And David Grant wrote Killers of the Flower Moon as
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: well about the murders in the Osh Nation in the
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: nineteen twenties.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: So that's a great one, suggests.
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great one too.
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: So things like that, and oh goodness, I tend to
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: have three or four things going on at the same time.
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: And archaeologists won't like this, but I've been reading one
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: of Graham Hancock's books. I think it's America before his
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: theories fast me this old, old old civilization pre Ice
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: Age that left many of the artifacts and structures that
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: we can't explain now, and.
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: It goes, it goes really deep.
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: And sure he is ostracized by the archaeological community, and
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: I mean they may have very good grounds for that,
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: but it's very interesting, it's very intriguing. So that was
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: very a couple of That's the fun thing.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: About reading is it is it's meant to stretch us
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: a little bit and let us think outside the box,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: and we can take what serves us and we can
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: let the rest go.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely So Now you so you've written this new
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: book on the butterfield. What are some of your other
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: vaunt because you've had some other stuff that you've.
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: Worked on, well, I actually this is my first book
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: to publish.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, God, at least you've mentioned something to me that
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: you wanted to publish, so maybe we won't let the
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: cat out of the bag, right right.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's kind of taken over my life to
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: harge a degree.
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: This is this area of my research.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: So I have I have some responsibilities now as president
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: of the Oklahoma chapter of the Butterfield National Historic Trail Association,
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: but I am I'm looking for some some other field
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: of study as well. I need another area to to
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: focus on.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: But what is it that they say that, you know,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: if you want to really leave a mark, find something
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: that you love, and then let it consume you. Oh gosh,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: And I think that something like that is how you
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: you end up like you've done, finding new information that
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: was lost or wasn't wasn't well documented, and inspiring another
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: genera and the next generation to go see these places.
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: So yeah, and it's been it really became a mission
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: for me to document we now know about that trail
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: through Oklahoma because there's so much of it left and
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: is disappearing every day with the elements and just time,
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: and I wanted people to know about it, and there
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: hadn't been anything written about it for sixty five years
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: or so, and so it was a real opportunity and
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: I just want that to be documented. And that was
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: really part of my goal with publishing that book, is
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: I want this information out there because people need to know.
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: Now, people probably.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: Don't think they need to know that, but I felt
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: like they did well what they will.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there will be people that will find your work
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: and it'll change their life, or it'll expose them to
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: entirely new part of the state that they live in,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: or a passion that they have for that part of history.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: I remember when I was just out of the Air Force,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: I was living on my aunt and uncle's ranch. Great aunt,
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: she was very cantankerous, and she said, Scott, I got
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: something for you, And so I followed her back to
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: her little house that she was quite old at the time,
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: and she pointed over to this trunk and she says,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: I want you to have that. And I said, whoa,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: you know, Aunt Jeane, that's amazing. I'm like, why do
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: you want me? She's like, because you're a traveler. In
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: that trunk came across the United States with my great
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: grandmother and I still have it. She's like, I want
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: you to have it. And I still have that trunk
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: and it sits in my office as a reminder of
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: like the hardships that my family went through to get
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: to the west coast of this country, so much like
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: you described with the butter and who knows, maybe they
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: did come across from the Butterfield Butterfield stage route, but
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: in order for my family to make it to the west,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: they endured incredible hardships that I'll never see in my lifetime.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: And it's a reminder that, you know, human beings can,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: we can do hard things if we put our mind
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: to it, and we're actually way better off doing hard things.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I agree, And that's what you've done. I mean, Susan,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: I'm so proud of the work that you do for
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: Overland Journal. You continually come up with fresh and new
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: ideas to share with our audience and Bill and you
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: have set a standard not only in his training that
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: he does with Dart or the content that you produce
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: for Overland Journal and other publications. And you know, it's
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: just it's an honor to know you, obviously as a friend,
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: but I just I want our audience to know who
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: you are and this great modern explorer piece that we
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: have on you in the fall twenty twenty five issue
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: of The Journal. I mean, you know, look Susan up
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: and learn a little bit more about her life. So
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: how do people find out more about you and your travels?
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: And where do they Where can they buy your book?
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: My website is susandregu dot com. Perfect and so all
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: the information is there and there's a link to buy
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: my book there on that website.
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: So that's the easy, easy button susanter dot com.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: And then do you guys have a social media channel
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: that you keep up with or yeah?
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: I just do Facebook.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't really do much on YouTube, although I
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: have a few things out there on video.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: I think you'd be doing more of it with becoming
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: such a subject matter expert.
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: But I need to, I actually need to, I really do.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: Well, you did a great job in this interview, and
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate you being on the podcast with me. Susan.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Scott, You're welcome, and we thank you all
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.