Latest / Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews / Kyle Idleman on The Missing Messiah and the Jesus We've Redefined

Transcript

Kyle Idleman on The Missing Messiah and the Jesus We've Redefined · Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Life audio pastor Kyle, thanks for joining me.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: So good to be with you. Michael, thanks for having
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: me on.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Kyle Idelman, Senior pastor of Southeastpriit Church in Louisville, Kentucky,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: and co author of the your book The Missing Messiah,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: The Jesus We Can No Longer Ignore. Tindell is the
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: publisher pastor. This book immediately hooked me because you include
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: a Michael Jordan illustration. I love that you say we
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: have turned Jesus into a product. What do you mean
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and what led you guys to want to write this book?
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: You know, understanding how we kind of contextualize our faith
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: based on where and when we live in history. I mean,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: it's not new how we've done this, but where we
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: take Jesus and put him in that kind of culture box.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: And so maybe that is a Jesus as a political
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: mascot where he kind of supports our agenda and it's
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: on our side when it comes to political or social issues.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Or maybe it's Jesus as a you know, life therapist
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: who focuses on self actualization and makes us feel better
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: about ourselves. And you know, mix Jesus in with a
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: you know, a cold plunge and got salvation. You know,
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's how we attach things to him that
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: may not be bad but aren't complete. And then the book,
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: I hope, just challenges people to think outside that Jesus
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: box that maybe they've built their faith around, and taking
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: a fresh look at Okay, this is what it means
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: to follow the Jesus of the Gospel. So I think
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: the word Messiah helps us with this a lot. Like
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Christ is the New Testament version of Messiah, and so
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: like when you say Jesus Christ, Christ is not his
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: last name, Christ is a is a way of saying
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Messiah anointed one, that he's king. And so helping people
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: while continuing to embrace Jesus's savior, also recognizes that Jesus's
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Lord absolutely.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: You know, we're kind of in a cultural moment right
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: now where Jesus seems to be more cool than ever.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: You have people of all walks of life for claiming Christ,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: and that's wonderful. But I mean, I'm just curious, is
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: that one of the reasons maybe you feel lad to
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: write this book that Jesus is super cool right now,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: but not everybody calls him lord.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And helping people understand that, you know, to use
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: your language of calling Jesus cool, I would say that
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: that would be maybe in the past, thought of as belief, like, Okay,
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: I believe in Jesus. Yeah, of course, yeah, it sounds good.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: But understanding that in scripture like belief and following go together,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: and following Jesus has implications that may not always feel cool,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: right Like there implications that are challenging and uncomfortable. And
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: you know, if your faith in Jesus, if your belief
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: in Jesus isn't isn't challenging you in some ways, then
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: that doesn't reflect the invitation to follow Jesus, which is
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: to take up your cross daily and follow him. So
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: how do we follow him as Messiah? How do we
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: follow him as king? How do we follow him in
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: a way that costs us something and requires something of us?
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: What are some common misunderstandings about Jesus in the culture today.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: You know, if I had to put one word on it,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: I think I would put the word comfortable on it.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: That that we have let me use an illustration. We
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: have kind of this netflixification of our faith where we
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: have our you know, viewing preferences are kind of our
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: algorithms that match up with our lives, and then we
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: want a relationship with Jesus to work the same way.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: And so whatever doesn't fit that doesn't seem to make
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: the cut. An example of this would be, you know
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: a guy in our church who not long ago said, Hey,
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: I'm not coming back anymore. I'm done. And in his
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: email to me kind of laying that out, he said,
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: how do you say? He said that when I come
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: to church, I feel like it interferes with my life, right,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's the way it's supposed
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: to work. But I think culturally it seemed to him
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: like that was something must be wrong if I if
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: I'm coming to church and it's interfering with my life.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: And I talked about this in the books. If you
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: if you think of faith as like being a drawer
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: in the dresser of life, and you know, maybe one
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: drawer's money, one drawer is you know, I don't know,
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: romantic relationship, one drawer is politics, one drawer's faith. That
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: we don't mind people at church or faith like digging
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: around in that spiritual drawer, but that biblically, you know,
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: following Jesus as Messiah means that he's the dresser that
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: all the drawers of life fit into. That means that
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: following him is invites you to, you know, open up
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: the money drawer and look around and see if that
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: aligns with him as Messiah. To think through your marriage
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: and you know, as a husband, my following Jesus as Messiah,
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: so I then begin to look at every area of
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: my life through that lens of Jesus as King, not
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: just Jesus as Savior.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: I think you included that Netflix illustration in the book,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: if I remember correctly. And also this Michael Jordan illustration
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: in the book really struck me. I don't know if
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: that was your illustration or or your co author, but
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: it struck me as how it's true because so many
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: people think of Jordan as a logo and Jordan was
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: a person, And is that not similar to what we
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: have today and that you're that you're talking about in
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: terms of Christ being kind of a logo and not
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: a not an actual person or you know, a savior
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: in someone's life.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And to maybe think about this in terms
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: of like the Jordan idea is that you you can
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: feel connected to somebody like that through you know, like
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: through the shoes or through following the career or knowing
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: the stats. But that's a lot different than having a
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: relationship with someone. And so it can give you this
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: false sense of connection. And but if he said, if
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: you know, if he walked in, he's like, I have
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: no idea who you are, Like he doesn't, he doesn't
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: feel connected to us. We're just kind of connected to
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: him through kind of these cultural, you know, connections, and
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: so understanding Jesus as more than that for us, like it, Yeah,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: do we want to know about him and be associated
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: with him?
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: I hope so.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: But but knowing him is is different. And so one
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: of the ways I talk about this a little bit
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: in the book is like wanting to to not just
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: follow Jesus closely enough to be associated with him, to
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: you know, to have the name, but closely enough that
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: it's requiring something of me. That that's where this life is.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: A follower of Jesus really begins to have meaning and
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: purpose and give joy. Like we we think that by
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: holding back and kind of following from a distance, that
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: will be happier, more fulfilled, or complete. But the most
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: miserable people I know are the people who who take
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: that approach where they they followed Jesus kind of from
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: a distance and they're associated with them and they've got
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: the name, but they're not they're not close enough that
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: it's costing them something or requiring something of them.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: This might be a question maybe before a story end,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: but I'm just curious, is this an American problem that's
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: really unique to us? Because it seems like we have
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: such an individualistic mindset in America that everything has to
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: be our way. Do you think that's driving what we're
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: talking about in terms of people just wanting to make
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: their Jesus to fit their own He's a word. That's
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: a great question.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: What I would say is like the dynamic is not American,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: meaning like if you look at Crusade, you know they
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: kind of marched under the banner of Jesus while slaughtering people.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Or if you look at at slave traders, you know
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: they would you know they or even you know Christians
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: and Nazi people call themselves Christians and Nazi Germany, where
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: they kind of have this ary in Jesus, but they
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: stripped him of this Jewish identity. So the idea of
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: taking Jesus and making him into our own image. That's
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: not necessarily Western culture. What is Western culture is what
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: that looks like me. Like, what would be an example
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: of this, Like the individualized approach to following Jesus, very
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Western culture that, oh, it's my personal relationship with Jesus.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: I can follow Jesus. I don't need to with any
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: I don't need to do that with other people. I
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: just do it on my own. Like that approach to
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: following Jesus is a very dangerous Western culture or the
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: consumerism side of it, where Jesus is kind of this
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: product who exists for you know, for my benefit. That
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: is Western culture. But but the idea of looking at
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: him and kind of making him in our own image,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: I think that's I think it'd be fair to say
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: that's been around since Jesus, you know, since he walked
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: the earth. But the way we do it, some of
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: that is I think maybe uniquely Western.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: For someone who reads this book and or watches this
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: interview to realizes they've been following the wrong Jesus. They've
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: been following their own you know, Jesus, they defined themselves.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: What what's the first step toward embracing the real Messiah?
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: What do you want them to take away from this book,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: But I think.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: You know so much of this is a humility to
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: look in the mirror and ask yourself some questions, you know,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: like it like when's the last time following Jesus costs
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: me something? Or you know, you do I get more
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: upset about political outcomes that I do about you know,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: people not knowing Jesus. Do my bank statements reflect my
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: stated beliefs? You know? It's it's being able to look
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: at that and and and align your life with His
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: messiah ship. And I I would just say that no
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: matter where you're at on your faith journey, there's a
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: room for that. Like I personally feel very convicted around
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: these things when I stop and reflect on my life
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: and think through them and break through them. So my
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: hope is, let me go back to my dresser illustration.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: My hope is that this book will help people open
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: up every drawer of their life with this idea of
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: aligning my life with His lordship.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Maybe my final question way pastor we're seeing what many
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: are calling a spiritual awakening, some I'm calling a revival
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: across America right now, with college campuses filling arenas with students,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: you know, worshiping baptisms, Bible sales are up, so and
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: so on and so forth. I'm just curious, what are
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: you seeing you in your city right now? Do you
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: see the evidence of that at all?
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah? We do, And like this really is is written
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: with that in mind, that where there's a spiritual awakening,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: but that it's an opportunity then to take that awakening
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: and align that with life. Meaning that if if Bible
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: sales are up, but our Christian worldview doesn't match Bible sales,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: or if our implementation of gospel doesn't reflect Bible sales,
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: then you know we're going to miss a moment. So
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: so with this spiritual awakening needs to come spiritual alignment.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: And what I see is maybe a generation of believers
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: and I'm excited about this that have a spiritual interest
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: in awakening. But now's our opportunity to say, you know,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: just as Jesus did in the gospels, okay, now come
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: follow me, and here's what that looks like.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Here's what that means. Would you say, this is sort
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: of in the realm of synctification and discipleship. That's that's
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: kind of what your book is referencing. H yeah for sure.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: It's an invitation to say, Okay, this is a journey
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: that I'm going to be on. I'm not just I'm
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: not just going to step over a line of ye know,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: saying here's what I believe, but I'm recognizing that following
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Jesus is a journey of recognizing him as king.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: If you enjoy today's interview, please make sure to subscribe
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: and share the episode.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: With a friend.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: A big thanks to the team at life Audio for
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: their partnership with us on the podcast. If you go
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: to lifeaudio dot com, you will find dozens of other
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: faith centered podcasts in their network.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: See you next time.