Latest / Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth / 83: David McKeough, CRO at Trusona talks about being creative in how and when you describe what you do

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83: David McKeough, CRO at Trusona talks about being creative in how and when you describe what you do · Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth

• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: All right, welcome to the Bite-sized sales podcast, where we believe that sales at B2B startups should be easier than we often make it, and that it's plain wrong that sales teams at startups don't get the help to succeed like sales teams at their bigger and more well-known competitors do.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a seller or sales leader at a B2B startup, especially if it is in the cybersecurity space, you are in the right place and welcome.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to episode 83.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Our guest today is Dave McKeo, a multiple-time head of sales at Cybersecurity Companies.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Dave, it's awesome to have you on the podcast and welcome.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks for having me.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Before we get going, let's talk about the sponsor of today's episode, which is Primonio, P-R-E-M-O-N-I-O.com.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: If any listeners have been at a really early stage company, you'll know that a lot of the sales planning is done on homegrown spreadsheets.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of look in, you put in some targets, and you start building out what ends up being a pretty complicated spreadsheet, looking at what happens if I add some more head count in at this deal size, at this sales cycle length.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you start playing around and you build it out and you add in different types of reps, AEs and SDRs, and suddenly before you know it, you've got this kind of pretty big complicated spreadsheet that you're using to help get going.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Anytime that we do this ourselves, obviously it's prone to errors because we tend to be starting either from scratch or taking a some uh a model from a previous company that we were at and adapting it.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And usually these spreadsheets are not in depth enough, right?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're pretty good for very simple questions and planning, but uh when you get into more complex stuff, they're just not that great.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where Premonio comes in, and it is your growth architecting system.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: It takes in all the factors you might imagine you need to take in to do your planning and probably a few more.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's very rigorous in the approach it's taken, and it is tried and tested over many years.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: They start off essentially as a spreadsheet, and now Johannes, the CEO, is is making it into uh more of a SAS product.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: And to give you a sense of how in-depth it is, when Johannes was building out his spreadsheet, he realized a lot of the calculations actually couldn't be handled by a spreadsheet.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're thinking that your spreadsheet is good enough, just know that someone who's done this multiple times in multiple companies has realized that the calculations needed actually can't be handled.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And importantly for Probonio, you know, it gives you numbers you can trust, right?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can take them to the board, you can take them to the CEO, and there's a lot of rigor around those numbers that you can know and trust and defend.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And importantly, it's about forward-thinking planning.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is not historical analysis.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is not sticking a BI tool on top of Salesforce and looking at very sparse data and somehow drawing conclusions.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Johannes Hook is the CEO, he's a multiple-time CMO, very sales-friendly CEO, and uh, he's a sponsor.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Promonio is a sponsor of this episode.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Once again, it's P-R-E-M-O-N-I-O.com.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, Dave, let's go back to back to your world.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Before we get into sales and selling career stuff, let's talk about Dave McKeo, the person.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about Dave as he was seven or eight years old, and where in the world were you and what were you interested in and what were you up to?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, it's funny.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: When I was about eight years old, my parents separated, and you know, there was a little bit of uh a need for money, but just to buy regular things.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually went out and I got three paper oats and I uh save money.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: I live in the I'm from the northeast, right?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: North of Boston.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I saved money.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: I had my brothers chip in uh to buy a snowblower, and I told them if they chipped in, they never had to shovel my mom's driveway.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I used to take that out and I'd go up and negotiate the price for shoveling the driveway or snowblowing the driveway.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then I eventually uh developed like a little crew, like three or four kids that would come out with me and I'd have them shovel the walks on all the houses on the street after I negotiated, and I'd I'd do little snowblower stuff.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: How old were you this time?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Eight.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and what's funny is I always joke, I think I had more disposable income when I was eight, nine, ten, eleven than I do now, you know.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: But um, it was great because I got to kind of learn how to budget early, buy my own things early, get what you needed, sometimes what you wanted, and that was a good time.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: And got to bring my brothers out, help my mom when she needed, and then uh you know, kind of went from there.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh, you know, obviously you needed to do it, right?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of seemed like you naturally went from delivering papers to actually building out a little squad of kids who are who are under your wing.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's just great.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you're right.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, imagine those days your costs were almost zero, right?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, right now, lifestyle-wise, costs are not zero.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you'd walk away eight, nine years old, 10, you know, from shovel and snow all day, and I'd have four, five, six hundred bucks.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, you know, it was incredible.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then what did you do in your teenage years?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: How did you keep going with this?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's like who can say no to an eight-year-old, right?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know, right?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in the you know, so in my teen years, I continued to work different jobs.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was a camp counselor, but I also painted fences and built decks in the summers.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: I pumped gas, I I did all those sorts of things.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the same time, I continued that snowblower worked from like age eight, nine all the way through past high school.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I continued to do that as well all the way through.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's actually a kid in our neighborhood.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think he started off doing this when he was probably about 15, 16, and he has a crew of school kids who do yard work in the summer.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And now he's actually at college and he still has them, right?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: He he he he just goes to local high school, you know, in the sky in the spring and recruits a new crew every year, and he he runs them all around the neighborhood.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's sounds very similar to what you were doing.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you do that?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: How did you go from doing that to getting into any kind of sales type role or official sales role as opposed to what you were doing before, selling yards of uh pathway or driveway?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, from there, when I was in my late teens, I actually sold furniture for this guy who had a few furniture companies.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh it's interesting because my first sales interview ever, like when I say real, like you said, like real sales interview, it was for this company that sold handheld computers for beer distributors.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've never made a cold call in my life.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: I walk in to the meeting and he says, Hey, you know, you've never done this ever.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Why what makes you think you can do it?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Well, everybody always said I should be in sales.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I figured if everybody tells you something that's not bad, you should probably give it a try.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And even when I was a kid, I was the one who went up and negotiated prices at the door.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of sold my service, and I never forget he pulled out this thing called the Thornton Manual.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Back when you pre-web and flips, he goes flip through a page, I flip through a page, he goes point, I point.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: He says, Call them.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Never made a cold call in my life.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, I'm nervous, right?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is the VP, you know, sales.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Can I just ask a couple of questions about the company before I make a call?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he just wants to see, can I pick up the phone and call and say stuff?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I get a little more information.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: I call, and the guy on the other end of the phone, as luck would have it, was looking for a new system.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: And now I go from like all nervous to reaching over the guy, grabbing for a pen, like I need a piece of paper to write this stuff down.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I hung up the phone and I said, uh, so it's like an SDR job, right?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, So do I do I have the job?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, Yeah, that was it.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that was my first uh soiree.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then I did that for a little while, and then I actually opened up my own company doing web design, web management, web promotion, and bang the phones there myself too to help build it.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do you ever wonder that if uh if that person had picked up the phone and told you where to go, you might not have been down this path?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what a nerve-wracking situation for your first cold call.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it was it was just that it lined up.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I always think like, what would have happened if right, yeah?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's funny.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: So then let me quickly run through your companies that uh we would recognize, right?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: You first got into cybersecurity sales at DyneTech, then into uh you had a brief stint at a company called JB Cubed, and then you had a long stint at McAfee, and we'll come back to that in a second.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: You're there for eight years, various roles there, worked your way up the organization.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: And when you left there, you went to lead sales at Digital Guardian.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think they were going through a reset, right?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: And needed uh new fresh leadership to come in.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you you led was it worldwide sales there?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So you did that for four years, and then you made the the wise financial move of going to CrowdStrike at the right time, had a three-year stint of CrowdStrike, which must have been awesome.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's some stories there.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then earlier this year, you went in as a CRO at an early stage company called True Sona.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Have I got that broadly correct?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we first really started working together uh back in the McAfee days, right?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember those days we were we were acquiring companies that seemed like left, right, and center.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we're gonna talk about this in a minute, but I remember I was there and we acquired Secure Computing.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And with Secure came the Sidewinder firewall.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the funny thing for me was when I joined what was Network Associates then, but you know, McAfee was really the the brand name people recognize.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: We had the gauntlet firewall at at the network associates.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't get much success with it.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we packaged it up and we sold it to uh secure computing, who then sold it back to us when we bought them.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it kind of this firewall darted around a little bit and came right back into our our bags.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: What was that around about 2007, eight-ish?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh I think it was end of 08.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: End of 08, right?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: When I came back, so it was just an interesting time, right?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: We had all this technology coming in.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: How did you work with your team to absorb the technology and make sense of it all?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, there's a lot coming at us in those days.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's a that's a great question.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's interesting, especially you pick the side the sidewinder firewall.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one of the things McAfee did is we called everything what it was.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we said McAfee Firewall instead of you know McAfee Sidewinder, which was the brand name or something like that.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I get the corporate makes these decisions and there's reason behind it, but it made it really tough from a selling perspective because you call up and say, hey, even if it was a customer that loved McAfee, hey, I got a McAfee firewall, and they instantly go, Oh no, I I have I just bought 300 ASAs, I'm good.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: You go, well, it's not that kind of firewall, it's this, and all of a sudden you're backpedaling, and then you have to explain kind of what it is.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I made a rule, we did a pipeline growth initiative, and I made a rule that you couldn't use the word firewall until the end of the first meeting, like the first full meeting demonstration, all that.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it made you get creative.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: So you had to say, hey, and if you were looking at gateway appliance, what are the attributes of a gateway appliance that would be useful for you?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And they'd list them and they'd go, Oh, wow, we do that.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: What I found out later, too, is that Palo Alto had a similar process.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: So we actually, you know, at the time I had like a$28 million number inside a$2 billion plus company.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we were building a pipeline, and other than maybe DOD, which is where they focused on prior, there wasn't much.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually got a call from the head of the product, and they said, What are you doing?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: I said, I said, You're not gonna believe it, but I'm just not calling it a firewall.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, No way, that can't be it.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And he actually flew in, heard my team call out, and he's like, Oh my god, you know, it worked.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, too, the technology was solid.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: I felt as though we could have gone competitive head to head against Palo Alto in the firewall space, but we just the selling motion wasn't on.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Just changing how you talk about it and you know, sounding different uh made all the difference in the world.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that reminds me.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um phrase I've heard before and I use many times is you know, sometimes different is better than better.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just changing things up a little bit, how you approach people, how you describe things.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you do it in a different manner, you tend to be able to stand up compared to what other people are doing, right?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you imagine, I don't know, other teams at MACFE either were either ignoring the firewall because they didn't understand it, didn't want to understand it, didn't think it had a role, whatever it might be, or at least they were describing it, hey, I've got a firewall for you, kind of thing, right?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you took a different approach, which was let me understand what you need first, attributes, etc., and then positioning what we have as something that would meet those, but still trying to avoid the word uh firewall, because I imagine it's gonna, in their mind, say, Yeah, we've got a we've already got our firewall strategy, right?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: We got a two-vendor firewall strategy, we're good.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Was that that time then was Palo Alto getting traction at that point?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: So they were uh what I considered in that in that part of the firewall space, they would have been our biggest competition.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, if you look at that, they never called it a firewall.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: They still don't.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's a Palo Alto, you know, XYZ, it's not a firewall.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that what they did in the firewall space at the time was pretty pretty unique.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember in those days, firewall was seen to be you know low or no growth, no opportunity, very commodity.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: You got your Cisco's and your checkpoints, and you're probably good, right?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: With a few maybe junipers thrown in, and uh and they completely changed the whole face of the firewall space.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Using it sounds like maybe a similar kind of mentality, but we're not really trying to sell a firewall here.
• 15:22
  unknown: Right.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And when you were going through this with your team, were you presenting to people or were you whiteboarding, or what was it, what were you doing in terms of trying to scribe all this that was really working?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: So uh some of it, you know, you had to do a call out to actually get the meeting.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you have that part, voice over the phone.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I I wanted to talk to you about what you're doing.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm shortening up the conversation, but basically want to talk to you about what you're doing in a gateway appliance.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that sounds great.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to show you what we have.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: We hit these things that you just described, and then you get the meeting.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then the meeting, you don't use the word firewall, right?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what typically happens that that you see is a lot of customers will we'll go all the way through the conversation at the very end, a lot of times, and this happened at Digital Guardian too.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: At the very end, they would say, uh, by the way, who are your competitors?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's the time you say, firewall.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're you know, in the Gartner quadrant, we're in the firewall space.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can see what Palo Alto actually did for the for that part of the space, is they didn't do they didn't open up a new category, they just expanded the functionality of the current firewall category.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we were all from a Gartner perspective, whether you were an ASA or whether you were a Palo Alto firewall, at least from what I can recall, or a McAfee firewall, you're in that same Gartner quadrant.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: So with uh with the success that you had, I remember you were asked to lead the the sales efforts as we were integrating new acquisitions, right?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: People kind of, you know, McKeos kind of figured out how to do this.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's give them the responsibility.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember some of the technology you brought in and how you your team approached it?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I do.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a couple of things here.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: One is, you know, a lot of times when you have that type of team, it's an overlay passive team.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: So the first thing was how you architect that team from a go-to-market perspective.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: In my discussions internally, which everybody bought into, was the acquisition team was a hunting team.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we actually leveraged McAfee as our biggest channel partner.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I treated them like a channel partner, although they got credit for it.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't treat them like McAfee from a functional perspective.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I spiffed them on getting meetings just like I would the channel.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I trained the ones who were most likely to bring in new technologies just like you would the channel.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing is, you know, from a global perspective, a lot of times technologies come in and everybody wants it localized, right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we need it localized.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I said to a lot of local entities that wanted certain things localized, I said, that's okay, you don't have to sell it.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: I did a lot of counterintuitive things.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, as an example for the first acquisition that fell into my group, it was uh Nitro Security.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: They had done 29 million the year before, the number was 55.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: We ended at 77.1 for the year.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so the first year after we brought in Nitro, we what tripled almost?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Just go five times.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's almost usually happens.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Usually acquisitions die, right?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: But since we had a hunting team, they knew where all the bodies were buried, they get to take their pipeline, and it was like a curve.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: I got to train the McAfee folks, and then eventually the goal was it moves over to McAfee Core McAfee as I'm taking in more acquisitions, incubating it, training the sales team, and then the cycle would go.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was cut short because we had regime changes and stuff like that.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: But that was the idea because when you sold this technology as a part of McAfee, but you knew that space, we won because not because on top of you knowing it, we now you have the big McAfee name behind it.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: The group was really successful doing it, and we actually took post-acquisitions.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned secure computing.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we had the web gateway, which I still feel was the best web gateway in the market at the time, and we put it into advanced technology.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: I hired a director from Web Sense over to run that group globally.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: And he and I built a team globally, and it went from negative 4% four years in a row, negative four, negative four, negative four, negative four.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: First year it grows 32%, right?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: You have people focused on it, you have people who have knowledge on this space.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: So only thing they're getting paid on.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I get to leverage McAfee as my biggest channel partner.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now we also use regular channel partners, you know, like Optive or whoever, right?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: We use those channel partners as well, but I leverage them in a different and unique way.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I tell you, this one point gets me, uh gets me going because I think that the early stage companies, right, you almost feel like you're a little bit small and lacking significance, and you're going against these bigger companies in the space, whatever space you're in.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's very rare you get a completely brand new space where you're all small.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's always someone bigger in the space, probably through acquisition, right?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing that we forget in these examples is from most of the time, the the reps at the bigger company, you know, they've got a bunch of things in their back, right?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then the their general philosophy is I'll sell what's ever easiest to get to my number and above.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's no there's no extra points for being the hero of selling the stuff that is the hardest thing, right?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Unless there's something in the comp plan, but usually there's not.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the power of focus is so strong.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you when your life, your your job and your livelihood depends on something, it's amazing what a good, talented team will deliver on.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the one of the huge advantages I think that early stage sales teams have is that no one is more focused on this than you are, right?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to understand that's a huge advantage.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can make life difficult for that bigger company, you know, the the reps will walk away, right?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: They'll they'll go and do something easier than saying, well, we could get beaten by, you know, fill in the blank.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's only kind of you know, strategy like you're talking about, which isn't the norm, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's not right, not how usually these things happen.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: As you say, usually it's an overlay and it's a nice thing, and we'll pull in that that new company when we got a deal for them, kind of thing.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's often why these things just languish, right?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the other key factor there was executive buy-in.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: We had buy-in all the way up to the president of McAfee for this group, for the go-to-market, for the hunting team, uh, which you also need.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to have the plan, which is hunting, you own it, and then you have to leverage all the resources you have, which is the next thing in line.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then having that executive buy-in was really big because I could I could say, Hey, uh, could you remind the team that it goes like this, you know, at the top level?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, Joe Sexton or somebody else would send out a message, right?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Or Mike Bay or, you know, on on you know, on the team, which was great.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Everything.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: So then then the McAfee, you went to Digital Guardian.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: This was a big role, head of worldwide sales.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: As they're doing a reset.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Any of those same concepts apply at Digital Guardian when you're thinking about how you talked about, you know, that was DLP.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, DLP probably by that point was one of these phrases that people were a little bit tired of and had an impression of it was too difficult or whatever it might be.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's interesting too.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Similar to my approach to the firewall, I went in and everybody on the team, on the sales team, was oh, DLP is a dirty word.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody hates day loss prevention, you know, on and on.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's so hard to sell.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, then, you know, why are you here?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this was your sales statement.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: When I first get there, and they go, I go, Why are you here?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Well, because the product does this and the product does this.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And they they went through all these things.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: What Digital Guardian did is they took a security approach to a compliance issue.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So they actually gave you fact-based decision-making power instead of educated guessing.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: So again, I said, Why, you know, why are you calling and saying asking them if they have a DLP project?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you do a fact-finding mission?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, unless they had a data loss prevention product, because that was a space, it's different than the firewall, right?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: If they had a data loss prevention project, you talk right to it.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: If they if they didn't, you ask them, you know, what are your goals for data protection?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and again, I'm talking quick and high level, right?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: For the conversation here, but the good the rule again became unless it's a data loss prevention product project, rather, you don't say the word DLP or data loss prevention until the very end of the first meeting.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And again, at the end of every first meeting, almost every first meeting, the customer asked, by the way, who are your competitors?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in the Gartner quadrant, we're in the data loss prevention space, and here are the competitors.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden we saw sales take off.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: So they had actually five years of negative growth.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: They had a very me to strategy.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: And really, what you needed was a me different strategy, and it was uniquely different for that space.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't even, you know, you didn't even have to kind of mix words.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: You could actually go, okay, we take a security approach to a compliance issue.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you're secure, you're almost always compliant.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're compliant, you're not necessarily secure.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that becomes part of the tagline.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're talking about the solution from what I call a deliverable conversation.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of times we coin it differently.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And in the mindset, it's like, well, I sold them, I told them what it did, they bought it, they bought a solution.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: But when you actually transform it into a deliverable conversation, you're talking about their end state, which is actually the solution.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we started to morph it towards that, and then we also started to talk about it differently.
• 25:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then we had four years of rapid growth.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: It was great.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: You did?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: We went from just over 20 million to the mid 80s in about four years.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's that's interesting.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, there's a market that was seen to be a little bit tired, right?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't think the DLP market was growing anything like that.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was a hard sell, right?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: As well.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was it was not an easy commodity sell.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was very in-depth.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yet you were able to flip it all around and start growing the growing the company.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's impressive.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say, and then you know, also you have to work with the rest of the team, right?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because everybody has to get get aboard.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: So product starts to do better, marketing starts to do better, sales starts to do better.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: The first year is a lot of sales, right?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's easier to change the sales message than it is the other messages in the product.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: It takes longer.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: But in years two, three, and four, you know, you have that push, you have that evangelization, and you're known more in the market.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a good lesson there for you know earlier stage companies, and that you know what got you there isn't going to get you further necessarily.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like they maybe hit the plateau selling it as you know a DLP, right?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: As a compliance tool.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, what it needed was a fresh take to be able to then break out again and keep growing from there.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, at early stage companies, you're at Trusona right now.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of it is just even getting the fundamentals of well, how do we even describe ourselves?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: As you're saying, sales messaging, right?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: What questions do we ask?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: How do how do we describe ourselves?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: How do we, you know, this came up on a call yesterday?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: How do we deal with it?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right, it's all very in the moment.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about one more thing.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: I always think about sellers in the cybersecurity space, you know, when you're competing against 1500, 2,000 other sellers out there, well, more sellers, but you know, all of the same target people, right?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is how do you how do you keep going with that?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because it can be a little bit soul destroying at times, right?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, going hard and knowing that somehow it's going to pay off.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: It must be hard working with the teams and helping them understand that it will pay off as they keep working, right?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I I think it's just like when you talk to a customer, you tell stories that have worked, whether it's your own story or or someone or a story about somebody else.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, a lot of times it's better about somebody else, right?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Depending upon what it is.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I always tell a story of perseverance, you know.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when I was at McAfee, we didn't have inside sales at first in the Fed space, and we're doing our cold calling, but I also had to be in meetings.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a target, the head of Department of Homeland Security at the time, and I just couldn't call them enough.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: I called them, but I just didn't have the have the bandwidth with all the other meetings, and I have to hit a number.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I pulled on this inside sales rep that I shared with another rep.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we both would meet with her together weekly, so that way we would have a cohesive plan between the three of us.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: But then I also, every morning, we would prep and she would call.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: And she would call from different numbers.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: She would sometimes she would leave a message, sometimes she wouldn't.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And she called him for 73 straight days.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the 73rd day, he calls her up and says, Hey, Jesse, you've been so friendly yet so persistent.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: I just had to call you back.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: What can I do for you?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: And in the Fed, things don't typically move that fast, but he called her back in July.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we actually displaced Symantec and Wind Magic in September from her perseverance.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: We got a$660,000 displacement.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: So for then I went back to her, I said, Hey, by the way, do you know who that was?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, she was a younger rep at the time, but she was good.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, No, I said, that was the CISO of uh DHS.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I said, so number one, remember, you can call anybody, you never have to fear that in your life.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And number two, now you know 100% perseverance works, you know.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then so a year later, we actually did another displacement for another 1.4 million.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: So just from her pushing, we basically got 2 million in displacements in revenue.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like that story.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is it it can be so hard when you're imagine her making call number 56 and call number 57.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's yeah, why does Dave have me doing this?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is crazy.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh suddenly it all pays off.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I bet you she probably ended up in a club or something after that, right?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, she crushed it in that year too.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was fortunate because she shared with me and someone else that the other person was number one in the globe, and I and I think I was number three.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: So like she killed it, she went to club, really impressive, and then she went on to have a great career, right?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: From there.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: But that lesson helped her out a lot uh throughout her whole career, right?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you know, they say most sales happen between the fifth and twelfth call.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't do at least 12, yeah, you're you're probably missing out.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're letting yourself down.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Dave, I've enjoyed the the stories, enjoyed hearing some of your anecdotes and some of the lessons you learned along the way.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a sales question or a sales saying that you just it kind of frustrates you and you wish you could cast it off and no one would ever utter it ever again?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: I I do.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's funny, when I first, like you said, I went to Dyentech first, and one of our partners was uh McAfee, right?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I was talking to the McAfee SE who always trained in me, and I said, Hey, I'm new to this industry.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: What is the, in your personal opinion, what is the number one thing that a sales rep says that you just shake your head at?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, When we're in a meeting, and he goes, Oh, that's why I brought the smart guy.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Oh, tell me about that.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Well, what it does is now you're not valued, you just completely devalued yourself in the process.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Now they're just gonna go to me 100% of the time.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: You dismiss yourself in the meeting, and a lot of these folks, men and women that say it, are actually smart.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And now they're basically saying, Well, just talk to the SE, because I'm not I'm not as intelligent when the fact is very different.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Their goal is business and and kind of quarterback the sale.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: The SE is more support technology, all that.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now they help in a different way, they gain a technical relationship.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: But if you veer away from it, it's really hard.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: So every time I'm in a meeting and a rep says that, I pull them out and I go and I kind of joke, I go, Do you not think you're smart?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: They go, What do you mean?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Well, you said you brought the smart guy.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: I said, and then I tell him the story, right?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: The fur that I learned that right off the gate.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you can see it in a meeting.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: When someone says that, you can see right away everybody just stops focusing at all on anything they say, and they're talking to the S E and they're talking to the exec in the meeting, and they're not talking the rep anymore.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that uh it's fascinating, actually, because I'm pretty sure I probably did that uh a few times in my career.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think we probably all have, but it is.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it you know, people prospects see us as salespeople in a certain light anyway, right?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: They're not usually unless they know you thinking, oh great, here comes the sales guy, right?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if you just completely devalue yourself by saying, Well, I brought this guy because you know he's a smart guy, it's like just it's confirmation at that point to completely ignore you, right?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Then it's a it's an uphill battle to trying to get that credibility back.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I guess it, I guess the learning there is make sure that you are valued and make sure that you are also not instead of, but also the smart guy in the room or smart go in the room, right?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you have that knowledge and be able to articulate and have a conversation at that level with the with the prospect, right?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: I like that a lot.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: So let me ask you, are you hiring right now at True Sona?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we are hiring.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: I have a rec for a uh sales rep and I have a rec for an SE.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in North America.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: So out of interest then, joining early stage, the certain DNA, it's not for everyone, right?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: What do you look for?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's take the take the seller.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: What are you looking for?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking for someone that has strong relationships so they can warm call at the beginning.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: When you're in a bigger company or a company with massive momentum, like a McAfee or CrowdStrike, like I was at, it's a little bit different, right?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have that name recognition, you're pulling a lead source.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that Rolodex doesn't help in both cases, but I went into Fed at McAfee, didn't know anybody, and I was successful.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: It would have been really difficult if I went into a uh small startup selling the Fed, knowing nobody.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's that's one.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: The the other piece is perseverance.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: They have to be someone with a thick skin and they have to be someone that just gets after it every day.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because it especially when you're smaller like that, it's a complete numbers game to get in there.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have to not to pun on my name, but there's a reason why David beats Goliath.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: David's scrappy.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: He gets in there, doesn't give up, thinks of different ways to approach it.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: So you got to be creative, and you'll get the support of the team, of course.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we have marketing and and and product and everyone behind it, but you're the one talking to the customer most of the time.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna see what works and what's what doesn't.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: So the other piece is you got to give feedback so that way we can help you more.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're not on your own.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: That feedback loop is so important because the things aren't set in stone.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can't say here's this recipe for success because it's just based on what you learned so far, but you know it's not everything.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of successes, and just finally before we wrap up, what's worked for you at Cressona in terms of finding and winning your first customers?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is it relationships?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is it uh SDR piling the phones?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: What's really paid off?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: So when I first got here, I'm in my ninth month.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: So when I first got here, a lot of it was relationships from our CEO, from other folks here.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: When I came in, I have some relationships.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: And those were some of our very early customers, the four or five years before I got here.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh afterwards, you still have the relationship.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: The same if we're bringing an SE.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: SE has relationships, like we can leverage those.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: We have a CTO that came in, he has relationships, things like that.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then you get the marketing humming.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because marketing has it has a broader span, and you optimize it.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: You do the challenger method, things like that to bring in the weeds.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time, your SDRs and your field folks have to pound the phones just to get the momentum.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: If nothing else, you're getting the name out there more.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: And what I've noticed too, a lot of times we have organizations that go out, talk to someone, and then like three or four months later, they go, Oh, we understand what you're saying now, we're coming back.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, because our approach is different too.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that we touted before, which is true, is we're really easy.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Our user experience is amazing.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it really is.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: But what we didn't talk about was what it took to get to that user experience so that the customer understands that there's weight behind it.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the other piece is the security that's embedded in the solution.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you put these hot buttons in, and all of a sudden they they talk to you know competitors and they come back and go, talk to me about this again.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was sold, but then I asked these questions when I went back, and now I'm curious, right?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a combination of all of them.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think to your point, the earlier ones are very much relationship, right?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because they have to have trust more than anything.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Until you get some type of invasive accounts like 10 or 15, 20, uh it's a trust factor.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: After that, I'm not saying they don't have to trust you, but there's more trust because you have entities that are working, you have references and things like that.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: You got other sources of credibility at that point.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: You got a track record that you can point to and show and reference through the sales cycle as well.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Great stuff.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: So if people want to get hold of you, if they're interested in talking about a role or just connecting with you in general, Dave, what's the best way?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn, I'll spell my name so because it's hard, but it's David Mikio.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: Last name is M-C-K-E-O-U-G-H.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that would be the best place uh to get in touch.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Great, Dave.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome catching up with you, hearing some stories and getting some good tips actually about various things that we have to tackle as sales teams at startups.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate your time today and uh best best of luck at Crisona.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, thanks for having me.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate it.