Latest / Future Christian / The Hidden Drama Behind Every Pastor Search | Michelle Huneven

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The Hidden Drama Behind Every Pastor Search | Michelle Huneven · Future Christian

• 0:00
  Martha Tatarnic (00:05) This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and the future of the church. Loren Richmond Jr (00:19) Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today Loren Richmond Jr. is in conversation with Michelle Hunavan. Michelle is the author of six novels, most recently Search and Bug Hollow. She teaches creative writing at UCLA. Among other honors she has received. She has received a James Beard Award, a Guggenheim Fellowship, and a
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  Literature Award from the American Academy of Arts and Letters. She lost her house in Altadena. California in the Eden Fire, so while rebuilding she lived in Los Angeles with her husband, dog, and talkative African gray parrot. A reminder before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at Loren at resonate mediapro dot
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  com. With comments, questions, or ideas for future episodes. Your support means a lot to us in making this independent podcast possible. Loren Richmond Jr (01:29) This is Loren Richmond Jr. and today I'm pleased to be joined by Michelle Hunnevin. Hello and thanks for joining me. Michelle Huneven (01:37) Thanks for having me Loren Glad to be here. Loren Richmond Jr (01:39) Yeah, looking forward to this conversation. Share anything else you want to let folks know about yourself. Michelle
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  Huneven (01:46) Well, I'm a novelist. I've written six novels, two of which are what I call my church novels. My second novel is called James Land and it has a brand new minister navigating a difficult church. And then I wrote Search, ⁓ which was my fifth novel about a search committee looking for a new minister at a Unitarian Universalist church in California. teach at UCLA. I teach creative writing. and sometimes food writing ⁓ in the English department. I live in Los Angeles, California. And
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  ⁓ my house burned down in the Altadena fires. Loren Richmond Jr (02:28) my goodness. How does that, if you don't mind my asking, how's that been recovery? Michelle Huneven (02:36) it's been so much and it's ongoing. ⁓ It doesn't stop. mean, there's still insurance, there's SBA loans, there's constructing a new house. We lost two houses. So ⁓ it's just an ongoing project. The initial shock has dimmed somewhat, but it's just, it's going to be a few years before we can put it behind us. Loren
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  Richmond Jr (02:39) Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, my heart goes out to you and I hope that, hope that continues the process, uh, strength for your, you know, endurance of anything right in that, in that process. Well, Michelle is the auth, yeah, Michelle is the author of the book search and gosh, is there a subtitle of this Michelle? Michelle Huneven (03:05) Thank you. It's. Well, search is a fictional memoir written by somebody who was on a search committee. So it's, it's a little
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  meta, as they say in literary terms. ⁓ It's called search, a memoir with recipes by Dana Louise Patowski, a novel by Michelle Hunnevin. A lot of people don't quite Loren Richmond Jr (03:40) Sure. Hmm. Michelle Huneven (03:54) get that. So they think I'm Dana, but I'm not Dana, thank God, because Dana has slightly questionable ethics. Because one of the reasons that she's on the search committee is that she needs to write another book. Her agent and publisher are pressuring her. And this
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  opportunity comes up to be on a search committee and she thinks, well, that's a year long project and maybe I'll get a book out of it. Loren Richmond Jr (03:58) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (04:25) Questionable ethics, one shouldn't join a search committee for that reason. Loren Richmond Jr (04:30) Well, I will sheepishly admit I had some uncertainty as to whether you were literally Dana or not. I'm from my own moral foundations. I suppose I'm relieved to hear that that was not a literal
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  thing that happened because I would also wonder, hmm, this seems a little bit problematic to say the least. So you mentioned you mentioned this is your second church themed book. Like I'm to have to check out. Is it James land? You said. Michelle Huneven (04:59) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (05:00) I'm going to have to check that out if it's anything as good as this book, but I would love to hear more. what, like why write a book on the theme of like a church search committee? Michelle
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  Huneven (05:13) Well, ⁓ a couple reasons. One, as I said, I teach at UCLA and I was, I put my hat in on a couple searches and ⁓ just at UCLA and I wasn't selected. The first time there was no funding, they cut the funding. And the second time they hired some other people, but they, they did give me some, ⁓ they, they sweetened my deal there. ⁓ So, And I had a friend who was on the search committee who sort of told me a lot of what was going on. So there were lots of machinations there. And then
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  I was on a small search committee at my church. And it was just for, I can never remember if it's an associate, I have a block or an assistant minister, the one that's hired, not called. And it took us three months. It was completely convivial. Loren Richmond Jr (05:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure. Michelle Huneven (06:10) I remember exactly where I was. I was walking into the choir room when I got an idea for this novel. And I thought, this whole process of getting to know ministers is very
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  novelistic. You first you swipe right, as it were, and pick a few just online. And then you exchange. The church sends out its packet and the Loren Richmond Jr (06:29) Yeah Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (06:40) minister sins in their packet or and and you just how the characterization deepens and how you get to know these characters bit by bit until they're face to face at the church ⁓ and and you each encounter ⁓ on paper and then in person you get to know them more and that seemed very
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  novelistic to me and also it's structurally like a novel you start out not knowing something and you have this arrow pointing Loren Richmond Jr (07:01) Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (07:09) ⁓ towards a conclusion. So I thought this would make a perfect novel. But I had to sweeten the stakes. I had to make it for a main minister. ⁓ And I had to add tension. ⁓ Well, one of the things that they gave us, even for this little search committee, ⁓ was ⁓ the handbook for searches, which laid out step by
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  step. Loren Richmond Jr (07:21) Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (07:37) what happens in the search. there was my structure for a novel right there. I just filled in the blanks. Loren Richmond Jr (07:41) Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah, it's funny you are a novelist because I had to look up the word convivial what that meant. Michelle Huneven (07:54) So. Loren Richmond Jr (07:56) You use the word novelistic. The reason I want to have this conversation, cause this even again, why, even though it is
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  fictional, as you say, it felt very sociological. And that's kind of how I want to approach this conversation because I think you, you named in this fictional way, many dynamics that I think happen in search committees or searches, you say, whether in church or in other contexts. And I think. Something that I've noticed that I'm curious about is that search committees can often drift from their stated criteria and kind of get into these, I don't know how else to say it, like gut decisions.
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  Share more about that. Michelle Huneven (08:42) Yeah. Well, I think that one of the things that happened with this search committee, but can happen with many other search committees, in an attempt to make a committee that reflects a lot of the church, ⁓ this committee, for example, is too big. And there are too many people on it. But they wanted to represent each part of the church, the musical part, the... ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (08:59) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (09:15) diversity part,
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  you name it. they can, the idea is to make a church in miniature. However, it can also just split into factions where each person is so stuck on their own agenda. However, they can also, it's a complicated question because a church really needs to know itself and what it's looking for. Loren Richmond Jr (09:19) Right. Right, right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Michelle Huneven (09:45) And my church in this book has just been tootling along. It's been healthy. It's got a big endowment. They don't
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  really do any soul searching. And so they're prone to the next pretty thing. know, they don't have a minister who is going to take charge of a capital campaign to enlarge, for example, the Loren Richmond Jr (09:53) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (10:14) the grounds or something like that. ⁓ They just want to, they want what every church wants, they want a good preacher who's also very pastoral. ⁓ But they haven't really done the soul searching necessary. And so they're prone to,
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  they're prone to factionalize and they're prone to be subject to a whim. Loren Richmond Jr (10:22) Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking about, you said, you know, again, in this sort of a fictional search committee, you made it, you talk about how there's, it's too big. There's too many kind of voices or perspectives. And I'm thinking about how, especially like in a church, and I'm curious, like in your experience, like at UCLA or other big institutions, like there are certainly, there's some
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  amount of like folks who are like, institutionalists who are like, you know, we need to, we need to protect the brand or the identity or the legacy of the institution. And there's some folks who are like, we just need to go forward and move forward toward the future. I'm not sure what the question is to ask, I think what have you seen or what thoughts come to mind when you think about these competing factions, if you will, around what are the primary ⁓ things we're chasing after? Michelle
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  Huneven (11:27) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that affected a lot of search committees ⁓ in churches, in some churches, certainly in Unitarian Universalist churches, was the need to diversify. ⁓ It's a very white denomination. so, for example, on this search committee, in order to get a diverse search committee, Loren Richmond Jr (11:53) Yeah. Right. Michelle Huneven (12:05) They have someone who's been at the church for three months. He's Filipino. He's a dear,
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  dear guy. He's a wonderful guy, but he doesn't really know anything about the church and it's theology or lack of theology as the case may be. it's so I think that Loren Richmond Jr (12:08) Yeah. Right. Yeah, you can say that on this podcast. Michelle Huneven (12:34) You run into the, I mean, it says in the search committee handbook, the people that know the church well, that understand its finances, that understand its theology, its history. ⁓ And there are too many people in the search
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  committee that just don't, they're too new. And a couple of them just look at the older people as, you know, past their due date. Loren Richmond Jr (12:40) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. And I see this is what I think made this book so interesting because I think it reflects like these broader sociological trends that we're we're we're dealing with as a nation as like, do we kind of protect and preserve institutionalism or do we say we need to write off institutionalism and just let so again,
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  I think this was Michelle Huneven (13:13) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (13:29) what made the book to me at least so interesting even broader than church, certainly these dynamics play out in church. Michelle Huneven (13:37) Yeah, I mean, I'm certainly not against diversity. And one of the most responsible people on the search committee is what you would call a diverse member. And I think, you know, lot of people say, oh, you have to lower the standards to have diversity. Well, not
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  necessarily. You can lower the standards and just have, you know, mediocre white people. Loren Richmond Jr (13:49) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (14:06) ⁓ So, I mean, it was tricky dealing with that also at the time I was dealing with it because, I mean, I did, I had a sensitivity read of the book because these are issues that, you know, I wanted to be careful about and respectful of. But ⁓ I think in this case, not knowing Loren Richmond Jr (14:07) you Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Michelle
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  Huneven (14:36) what they needed in precise particular detail led to some larger mistakes. And they got sidetracked by ideas that they hadn't even thought about. Loren Richmond Jr (14:54) Yeah, I want to stay on that point because correct me if I'm wrong here, but this in the story, the UU church for folks unfamiliar, Unitarian Universalist Church is congregationally governed, congregational polity, which is very similar to other church governance or church denominations such as my own, the
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  Christian Church disciples of Christ, United Church of Christ. Other denominations have Michelle Huneven (15:11) Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (15:24) you know, looser or very similar forms of congregational dynamics or governance. There's, there's a few denominational structures where the denomination itself, like puts in a clergy leader, like I'm attending a Methodist church right now where that's the case. And there's pros and cons to that for sure. ⁓ so I'm not sure again, how to ask this, but
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  I imagine again in Michelle Huneven (15:40) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (15:53) different contexts, whether in church or in, I suppose, in secular institutions, to use that word. There is this challenge of like knowing what an institution needs. How have you seen that play out? What additional thoughts do you have on that? Michelle Huneven (16:03) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, you know, they, there are always these surveys and these meetings for mission statements and they're, they might be
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  the best we can do, but they're not very effective. There's often not a good return on surveys. They often don't quite get at the right questions. Loren Richmond Jr (16:22) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (16:43) They also ask a lot of people who've never thought about these questions to answer them. ⁓ It might be the best thing I have. I the Methodist, I talk about the Methodist in the book, and it is kind of like, which is better, an arranged marriage or a love marriage? And ⁓ it
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  has kind of all of the dangers of a love marriage. There are people who know each other and get to know each other and maybe even Loren Richmond Jr (16:48) Yeah. Right, right. Yeah Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (17:12) do a lot of premarital counseling to talk about difficult things like money and sex. ⁓ In a church context, that would be really frank discussions of what problems the church might have financially, ⁓ what their ambitions are going forward. ⁓ The church in this book has been so
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  comfortable. It's got a good endowment. It just sort of bumps along and they haven't really asked themselves the hard questions. What will happen if the school that rents the church suddenly leaves? What will happen if we have a major fire or a windstorm that knocks and takes the roof off or something like that? They haven't looked knowingly into the future. Loren Richmond Jr (17:55) Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (18:11) They interview some old hands that will ask those questions, but it's not
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  something that the search committee focuses on because the survey hasn't come up with that. And ⁓ at a certain point, they're too busy jousting with each other to get down and dirty about what the church actually needs. Loren Richmond Jr (18:33) Yeah. Something that struck me as I read this is that in many ways, the person or I think this happens too in churches or institutions, like the person who would be best suited to lead that organization is like by far the least appealing. Is that too
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  unfair? Michelle Huneven (18:57) it's possible. Yes. ⁓ they're boring. They're boring. They're not shiny. They're, ⁓ they're like, they're institutionalists. They've got a lot of experience. They, they, they are a little bit humdrum. They don't promise the world, you know, they know what they're getting into. Loren Richmond Jr (19:04) Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. This is what, this is what your caricature character, I'm not sure what the best word to use there of Alana sort of as this
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  charismatic, appealing checks all the boxes, but none of the boxes at the same time again, is a, is a dynamic that I see in churches and I'm Michelle Huneven (19:26) And yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (19:54) This is kind of the inverse of that. Like the, in many ways, the exact opposite of what a congregation like the one you described in your book would need. And I'm just curious, like, I don't think this is something that's unique to church. think it's, I mean, in many ways, I think we're seeing
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  this lived out in our, nation's governance right now of, ⁓ of this appeal for charismatic dynamic leaders. Michelle Huneven (20:15) Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (20:23) And I'm just wondering if you've given thought to what that's about? Michelle Huneven (20:29) ⁓ yeah. mean, I think with churches, you know, as you know, there's been a huge drop in attendance and church membership. And so people think they need to do something about that. And so they want to. And certainly, you know, they always
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  as long as I've been a church attendee, they want young people. You know, there's that gap where they they leave after high school, they go away to college and they never come back. Loren Richmond Jr (20:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Michelle Huneven (20:57) And so the eternal idea of how to attract young people ⁓ and also the dire straits of churches losing members, I think led people to think, well, we need something new and interesting and vibrant and different. I know ⁓ that a lot of people,
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  there was a period when I was writing the book, there was a period when a lot of people were being hired right out of seminary. Loren Richmond Jr (21:04) Right. Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (21:28) And know, in seminary, I went to seminary for two years with the idea of becoming a minister. So I know how excited you get for all these new things that are being presented, all these new ideas that are being presented in seminary. can't wait ⁓ to take them to a church. And of course, there you run
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  up against the institutionalists at that church who think Loren Richmond Jr (21:32) Yeah. Right. Yes, years. Michelle Huneven (21:54) who think they want change. This is what James Land was sort of about. ⁓ I had a friend who was a Methodist minister, and she won the Pastoral Award. She won the Preaching Award. She was just brilliant and wonderful, and she's actually had a great career in the Methodist Church. But ⁓ her first church, ⁓ she just, you know, she was full of ideas and she was
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  brilliant. But she got a little a little church in Orange County and she just ran up against basically her secretary, but also ⁓ the members who they were thrilled to get her because she was terrific, but they didn't really want to implement all of her ideas right away in the first year or two. Loren Richmond Jr (22:29) Mm-hmm. Right. It's funny. I think there's many pastors out there who might say the secretary and their context is also the biggest resistor of ideas. Michelle Huneven
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  (22:54) And also she took on a church that had lost ⁓ their beloved minister of something like many years, maybe 10 years or something, which is unusual for a Methodist ⁓ minister to stay that long. So the church lost this beloved minister. So my friend would call me up and she would say, the grief is back, because they took their anger and their sadness. Loren Richmond Jr (23:06) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Michelle Huneven (23:22) out on the new person. So there's that transitional, I mean
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  there's so many issues in a church, which is why it's endlessly interesting. Churches are endlessly interesting. There are human structures that are endlessly fascinating. Loren Richmond Jr (23:24) Yep. Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely agree with you on that. So in the story, charisma and image really seem, and we've kind of touched on this already, they really seem to weigh, be a strong contributing factor in the decision-making process, even less so on qualifications. I mean, I think that's
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  what struck me the most. How have you seen that play out in other contexts? What do you think an institution or a church can do to, I don't want to say like guard against that, but also not, it just seemed like folks got caught up in the energy and emotion of this idea of like this idea of ⁓ Alana as a pastor. Michelle Huneven (24:09) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they argued, and to some extent, it wasn't a bad argument that this church had been big enough. It's had a lot of interns, lot of
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  assistant or associate ministers, I can't remember which, that they've loved into being good ministers. They've supported them. They've helped them learn. They haven't done that with a senior minister because they always had very qualified senior ministers, but they're a little bit overconfident that her shortcomings can be ⁓ easily fixed, or she can just be loved into a good minister. ⁓ And it's not a bad thing to think. It's a supportive church that quietly dealt with difficult problems. ⁓
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  It's a Loren Richmond Jr (25:06) Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (25:25) fairly healthy church, although not as healthy as everybody thinks. ⁓ I don't know. I talked to so many people about searches and ⁓ there was an Episcopal bishop I talked to who said, you know, I was really, she was on a search committee and she said, I was so against the candidate that they finally chose. And now I have to admit that he was exactly the right person that we needed. He's been great. Loren Richmond Jr (25:28)
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  Right. Interesting. Michelle Huneven (25:53) I talked to somebody at an institution, at an academic institution, who said, I lobbied so hard for this person. ⁓ Her husband walked away when she started talking about the search because he was so sick of it. She said, I lobbied so hard for this person and I browbeat everybody into getting her there. And she has been a disaster. Loren Richmond Jr (26:20) Hmm. Michelle Huneven (26:21) I mean, I've heard the whole gamut of stories where ⁓ it's an
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  imperfect process. ⁓ but you have to be somewhat vulnerable to fall for a person who's full of brand new ideas and who is also physically beautiful, young, physically beautiful, dynamic. ⁓ You hope she's going to attract every young person in the town, you know, and Loren Richmond Jr (26:28) Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (26:52) We're human. We're human. Loren Richmond Jr (26:55) Right, right. You mentioned kind of, again, in this story, how the church was not as healthy as they
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  might think they were, or as they seemed. Certainly I've seen, and I'm sure you've seen whether in church or in institutions, like a bad leader come in and really just tank things. And I'm curious, like, does that reflect more on the institutional health as a whole or as, or. Is it really just, does it simply come down to bad leadership? And I guess, I guess the question is this, like, can healthier institutions better withstand bad leaders? Michelle Huneven (27:41) ⁓ it remains to be seen
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  nationally. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (27:44) Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Yes. ⁓ Yes. Michelle Huneven (27:52) Where ⁓ I don't know, because what can a church do? I mean, they can cut their pledges. That's a big sign. They can leave. Another big sign. But that sort of doesn't help. ⁓ They can band together and get rid of a minister. ⁓ Difficult demoralizing. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (28:01) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (28:21) Ideally, churches withstand this. I just wonder how many churches at this
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  stage of loss of churchgoers can withstand it. I don't know. I'm not really an expert on it, ⁓ at all. I think it depends on the inherent health of the church because as Loren Richmond Jr (28:37) Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (28:50) One of my characters says to some of the others, we're the church. The leader is not the church. We members are the church. And it depends how strong that feeling is. Loren Richmond Jr (28:56) Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. And I think that's like, I think that's a good
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  ethos, certainly for a church. That's something I've heard from Methodists and perhaps your own kind of Methodist connections gave you that ethos too. So I think that's a good ethos. And certainly I think institutionally we want institutions to be more than simply about leaders. Michelle Huneven (29:24) Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (29:26) But like you said, there is that challenge and I don't know. Do you think this is something that's unique to American culture where, you said, if we don't like
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  what's going on rather than staying in it and making her, you know, signing up or, or, or not signing up or I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here. I guess what I'm trying to say is like, it's easier to take our ball and go home to stop giving, to stop attending, stop pledging. Michelle Huneven (29:50) Right. And, you know, a church can have a not great minister, but a great religious education program or a great pastoral care team. So it depends. It depends how much damage the minister does
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  to those sort of other parts of the church. Loren Richmond Jr (30:01) Right, right, right. Yeah. Let's talk about self-awareness because this is something towards the end of the book, you know, as you illustrate this church struggling under some, some unfortunate circumstances. Like I think that school left, right? That was in the book supporting the church, which is again, a realistic dynamic that many churches have key tenants that are really supporting the budget and also just perhaps some
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  poor leadership decisions. Michelle Huneven (30:16) No. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (30:44) by the pastor, but the, the, I hate to say the word, but there's always the excuse given in the book. And I think we see this again more broadly is, ⁓ these are just broader trends. Like we're just a victim of broader trends, which is true. ⁓ but also how do you encourage institutions or churches to be more self-aware? think that's an important thing. Michelle Huneven (31:10) Yeah, that is a
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  really, really good question. ⁓ I think I did belong to a healthy, self-aware church ⁓ where the older members that had been there for a long time were gloriously self-aware. And they, ⁓ it ran really well. And that was ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (31:29) Hmm. Michelle Huneven (31:38) they really knew the church and they knew themselves and they knew. ⁓ I mean, it had a lot of very successful programs. It was aware that that's what it took to ⁓ keep the church healthy. ⁓ I don't know. It's a good
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  question. We had these things called ⁓ chalice groups that I think in my book I called soul circles or something, where ⁓ they were trying to address Loren Richmond Jr (32:10) Yeah. Michelle Huneven (32:14) ⁓ not just people's own personal theology and beliefs, but also how to connect with the church. One of the things that they ask is that all members ⁓ do some outreach, do some sort of active outreach, know, join the pastoral care team or teach ⁓ in the religious education or do any number
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  of the community outreach programs that we have. Loren Richmond Jr (32:30) Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (32:44) ⁓ But I don't know how much that contributes to self-awareness. What do you think contributes to self-awareness in the church? Loren Richmond Jr (32:54) I mean, think like you said, honest conversations help. Michelle Huneven (32:57) Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (32:59) And I guess, I guess I think about this because it's something that I feel like I have to wrestle with myself as an
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  individual. Like certainly we want to be aware of broader trends, but also I think if we're not honest with ourselves about our own shortcomings and limitations, like I'd be curious if this is something I feel like happens when churches, struggling churches looking to hire a pastor. And I'm curious, like if this dynamic showed up in your James land book of like a church that's just Michelle Huneven (33:05) Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (33:29) blissfully unaware of like how not a good job they
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  would be and think of themselves as like, know, like we are so at such an in demand church. And then, you know, I had this, when I interviewed at one church, I was like, I'm aware that I'm young and experienced and not high demand. Do you all recognize like, you're the opposite end of that, you know, you're, you're not, you're old, you're struggling, you're declining and you're not a high demand church. Michelle Huneven (33:53) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I always loved, ⁓ and
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  I stole this from somebody. ⁓ I don't remember who when they said, you're young, you're inexperienced. ⁓ And he said, well, what can I do about that? Time will take care of it. Loren Richmond Jr (34:16) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I want to ask about something I, meant to ask already, but I think it's such a thing that happened so often is, I, who was the character that was a really strong character? Jenny. Yeah. Jenny. Michelle Huneven (34:20) ⁓ Jenny. Hahaha! Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (34:40)
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  Let me ask this too, just for fun. Like as you're writing this, do you find like your favorite characters and your least favorite characters? You know, as an author, do you find yourself like really, you know, enjoying wanting to hang out with a character or just gritting your teeth at a character? Michelle Huneven (34:58) Yeah, well, know, Jenny, exactly. There are characters that I really enjoyed and and and with and and actually Jenny was one of them. She she walked onto the page unbidden,
• 4:00
  just like her personality. And she took over. I did know deep in the back of my mind, I had read that, you know, that in a consensus situation, the most radical people tend to prevail because they hold out. ⁓ Consensus is really dangerous for that reason. ⁓ But she would say things, I would be writing along and she would say things that would just make me laugh and laugh as if I hadn't even invented them. She was so irritating. And she was right in a lot of ways. Loren Richmond Jr (35:32) Yes.
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  Yes. Ha ha ha. Michelle Huneven (35:57) Jenny's main thing was my folks grew up in this church with a minister that was kind of their age. They all had kids together. They grew up, they grew the church together and she wanted that for herself and her child. And I think that's a really wonderful thing to want. ⁓ However, she maybe pushed her agenda a little too aggressively. And also I've seen this teaching Loren Richmond Jr (36:07) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Michelle Huneven (36:27) And I saw it
• 4:08
  right after I finished this book. It's like I manifested it in my classroom where a really strong, unhealthy personality can take over. had a small class of 12, 12 students, and I had ⁓ a student who was just oppositional and, and she got, it was a writing class. She got the weaker students behind her and the Loren Richmond Jr (36:32) Hmm. Yeah. Hmm. Michelle Huneven (36:56) Really, I had some very talented students in that class, one of whom had already published a book, and they went into
• 4:12
  the background, they kind of faded away because she was so dominant. So how is it that this person who was sort of unstable mentally, not particularly talented, became the dominant force in the class? And it was so interesting to watch. I mean, it's a group dynamic. I read a lot about group dynamics when I was writing this book. ⁓ But it was a little bit ⁓ gratifying to know that it does happen that way. Loren Richmond Jr (37:38) Well, I'm, I'm biting my tongue to make additional comments, ⁓
• 4:16
  regarding this happening on a broader scale. What you just described, but let me ask this, let me ask this. Have you seen it? Like how have you seen groups resist that? like, again, the consensus model is in many church denominational settings, like the norm. And I'm just curious, like, cause that is a Michelle Huneven (37:47) Ha ha. Yes. Loren Richmond Jr (38:07) a realistic thing is like I've seen it myself where a strong, strong personality really can set the agenda. What have you seen
• 4:20
  work, whether in church or institution to resist that? Michelle Huneven (38:16) Mm-hmm. I don't know. ⁓ One of the things is, and this might be getting ahead of us, and it might not be the answer to the question, but... Loren Richmond Jr (38:33) Hmm. Michelle Huneven (38:47) ⁓ you know, caring Dana's problem, even though she's writing a book about this, one of her problems with the search committee is, is that she cares. She finds that she really cares. And at one point, one of the, one of
• 4:24
  the other members says to you, there you go caring again. And, ⁓ I think that. Loren Richmond Jr (38:59) Right. Yeah Michelle Huneven (39:16) actually caring. A lot of people on search committees don't have a pony in the race, don't have a dog in the race, and they don't care that much. And they're not that committed. I guess the commitment of commitment and self-knowledge, as you pointed out, ⁓ can go a long way to combat this. Loren Richmond Jr (39:22) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michelle
• 4:28
  Huneven (39:45) But if you have a search committee where people aren't deeply committed or they think they know the church, but they don't, because they haven't been there that long or they haven't participated that fully. ⁓ So I think that really caring is probably the only antidote. On the other hand, one of the ways to survive a search committee is to just not care that much. Loren Richmond Jr (39:54) Right. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Michelle Huneven (40:14) You know, I had a friend who was on a
• 4:32
  search committee and really cared and didn't get what she wanted and was miserable. And then she was on another search committee and she just didn't really, all the candidates were fine. You know, she didn't really care. And she said that was so much better to not really have somebody that she really wanted. Loren Richmond Jr (40:36) Well, I'm going to recommend this episode for everybody who ever has or will serve on a church committee. This book is so much, I don't know if fun's the right
• 4:36
  word, but such an entertaining read and you did such a good job writing it. and I think again, why it's resonated with me and so many folks I've talked to is because like it really names like a core dynamic. That is absolutely true. So yeah, I think, gosh, the book is search. Michelle Huneven (40:47) Thank you. Loren Richmond Jr (41:05) I know there's more questions I want to ask about this in this conversation, but for now, let's take a break and we'll come back with some closing questions.
• 4:40
  We're back with Michelle Hunovan and thank you so much for this conversation. ⁓ really again, and really recommend the book if only, you know, to, suppose, get a little frustrated and, and, laugh at others might have experienced the same frustrations as you, ⁓ for listeners. So some closing questions. We always tell folks you can take these as seriously or not as you'd like to. If you're a pope for a day, what might you want to do with that day? Michelle Huneven (41:48) Well, I think I would
• 4:44
  let women into the clergy. That's probably what I would do. Let women become priests. ⁓ That would be the first thing I did. ⁓ And probably soften the stance on homosexuality. Loren Richmond Jr (41:57) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church, they're not consensus-based model, right? Michelle Huneven (42:20) They are a top-down model. My book got reviewed by a Catholic in the New York Times and she was sort of like, I kind of don't get this
• 4:48
  book. Where people actually get to choose their ministers. Loren Richmond Jr (42:30) You that's great. That is great. ⁓ Context matters. ⁓ A theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life. Michelle Huneven (42:47) ⁓ Meister Eckhart, ⁓ the mystic. just, you know, his via negativa, his theology, his big heart, his mysticism, ⁓ his hanging out with the Beguines. He just always struck me. I think that there should be a wonderful opera written about Meister
• 4:52
  Eckhart. Loren Richmond Jr (42:49) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Hmm. What do you think history will remember from our current time and place? Michelle Huneven (43:18) I think one of the most ⁓ riveting, destructive presidencies in history. Loren Richmond Jr (43:36) Yup. Michelle Huneven (43:39) That's sadly. Loren Richmond Jr (43:39) We've been talking about problematic leaders. Problematic leaders for sure. Michelle Huneven (43:44) problematic leaders. destabilizing leadership. Loren Richmond
• 4:56
  Jr (43:50) Yeah, yeah. Do you have any hopes that you'd be willing to share about for the future of the church or Christianity? Michelle Huneven (44:01) Well, I just want, I mean, I believe in Christian values, know, the basic values of Christ, feeding the poor, taking care of the widows and the orphans and loving your neighbors, etc. You know, I just hope that that can prevail. Loren Richmond Jr (44:09) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Same, same. I want to ask too if I can, this is not on the sheet, but I
• 5:00
  always like to ask folks just related to their expertise. Writing a sermon for many pastors, you know, different, different preachers and pastors have different preaching styles. Some are manuscript based, some are outlined. Some will just like have a thought and just can go talk about something for 20, 30, 40 minutes. For the folks who are, you know, I think Michelle Huneven (44:23) Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (44:51) Creative writing certainly gets, is important. Man, folks who can do it in
• 5:04
  pastors make great writers and preachers. What are some, I don't know, creative prompts? Give me anything real quick about, folks who trying to prove their creative writing for preaching or writing or anything else in that field. Michelle Huneven (45:13) prompts. Well, I have to say, I'm asked to preach occasionally at a small Unitarian Universalist church. And I struggle like any new minister. I'm not that experienced. I would hate to act as an expert there, but ⁓ I can give you something that
• 5:08
  helps me in my own writing, which is the timer. Set a timer. Set a timer. Loren Richmond Jr (45:22) huh. You Yeah. Okay? Michelle Huneven (45:42) for 20 minutes and just write. You'll be amazed what comes out of you. It's just that little deadline. And another thing, and this comes from my being a food critic and a restaurant critic, is that the night before I had a column due, I would sit down and write everything I wanted to say about the restaurant. It wouldn't be written. It would just
• 5:12
  be... Loren Richmond Jr (45:45) Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michelle Huneven (46:09) all of the ideas I wanted to make sure to touch. And then I'd sleep on it. And when you're sleeping, you're letting, we're patterning creatures, we humans are. And it's letting your unconscious get to work. And then the next day, maybe not in the morning, maybe not until an hour before it's due, I would be able to write the piece. If I didn't do that preliminary thing, it was agony. Loren Richmond Jr (46:13)
• 5:16
  Okay. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Michelle Huneven (46:38) So, I mean, those are, guess, two little prompts. One is to use a timer and the other is to, you know what you want to say in your sermon, more or less. You know what the ⁓ text is that you're going to preach on. So just make a list of everything you want to say about that text and let it sit for a while. Loren Richmond Jr (46:55) Yeah. That's helpful. ⁓ I'm writing that down because I don't, I don't preach that often myself, but that's something
• 5:20
  that I found when I was preaching regularly was even after I'd immediately would preach, I'd go look at what my topic and text was just to kind of get it churning even for just a few minutes to get it churning. So I'm, yeah, that's helpful. Well, I thank you so much for this conversation. Michelle Huneven (47:20) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (47:31) I really appreciate it I hope it's helpful for our listeners. And again, how can people connect with you, find your book, all that stuff?
• 5:24
  Michelle Huneven (47:40) michellehunevin.com ⁓ is my website. ⁓ But my books are on Amazon and in bookstores. A paperback of ⁓ my new book, Bug Hollow is coming out. ⁓ Search is in paperback now. It's also on audio. It's got a good reader. ⁓ So it's available in every bookstore. But I want to say, Loren, you're a delight to talk to. really Loren Richmond Jr (48:07) Thank you. Michelle Huneven (48:08) I feel energized and inspired by our conversation. Loren Richmond Jr (48:13) Thank you so
• 5:28
  much. Thank you. We always leave folks with a word of peace, may God's peace be with you. Michelle Huneven (48:20) Thank you.