Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 235. Keeping Up with Changes in Refrigeration with Neil Merrett

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Episode 235. Keeping Up with Changes in Refrigeration with Neil Merrett · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Trevor: .I have a special guest, Neil Marat from the H and V magazine, as well as the RAC or RAC magazine of the UK, Neil and I, we met a A few years ago when I was out in the UK, it was at an event with him that they put on with Copeland called store the future, which was really cool.
• 0:01
  Check out some of our earlier posts, um, on LinkedIn or even on Instagram. And there was a lot of cool manufacturers there, contractors and users where we were talking about what was going on, in refrigeration in UK and how things are changing and progressing so fast. We always talk about how the world of refrigeration is changing, but around the World that's at different stages But I think we run into a lot of the same issues with regulations with manufacturing with contracting And we're going to dive into a bit of neil's journey because he's the editor He is talking to all these contractors.
• 0:02
  He's talking to the manufacturers. He's talking to the regulators Uh, and I believe he's been in this for about seven or eight years learning All the refrigeration and hvac side and i'd love to get his perspective on what's going on out there. Hopefully you will You Kind of take a look at their magazines.
• 0:03
  Well, I want you to go take a look at their magazines and check out their online presence, because this is a different perspective than you will see uh, on your day to day out there in the field. So, you know, welcome to the refrigeration mentor podcast. How are you doing brother? . Great to have, it's great to be here with you.
• 0:04
  Thanks for the, uh, the time and patience. I'm looking forward to it today. Yeah, no, it's good to see you again. It's been probably nine or 10 months since, uh, we've seen each other at the last event. So. It's good to catch up again. So you've been doing this about seven years writing on refrigeration writing on heating and ventilation air conditioning , how's that journey been because I know your background wasn't really in refrigeration And i'm sure you've learned a ton over the last few years , what's what's going on in the the editor world, the journalist world right now in refrigeration.
• 0:05
  Neil: And it's really interesting on, I mean, for us, I mean, even post Brexit, sort of we, um, you know, outside of the Brexit, like, um, as, as happens all over the world, you know, Europe, what goes on in Europe with the gas regulation in Europe. Um, still has huge ramifications. I mean, in the UK we're expecting, I think this year still we'll have some sort of our own UK review.
• 0:06
  Um, of how that's gonna, um, pan out. But there's a big question of, you know, there's lots of talk and grandstanding of, well, we don't have to do what the EU is doing. And there might be areas of going a little differently, but when you're dealing with manufacturers, with companies, with refrigerant suppliers, you know, for, for, for safety, uh, safety and numbers, there's sort of a sense of what we got out.
• 0:07
  Work together, you know, European partners and things like that. So, um, so I think that's a big one. I mean, it always has been a little bit, as you said, the last seven years. Um, you know, I think I've been there where EFGAS is fairly established. I know there was a whole thing before that about whether, whether that mantra, whether that was going to catch on.
• 0:08
  I think we've seen it with, um, with SNAP in the U S as well, in North America, Kigali, that that sort of change is happening. So it's, it's kind of a fascinating time. I always say it's kind of, I'm very lucky in having, being a bigger, um, having a media degree rather than being. And having technical skills, I don't really have to come up with anything.
• 0:09
  It's kind of a privilege writing about, um, you guys should have a really new working out practically how this is all going to be delivered and worked. You know, I think everyone's knows change has got to happen. Um, I get sort of right about that, how difficult it is and don't necessarily have to, um, uh, have to contribute too meaningfully, but that said.
• 0:10
  Um, I guess as media we're, we're having to facilitate and hopefully get discussions, you said, bridging, bridging, bridging the, the, the larger companies together with contractors, people on the ground and kind of trying to get a, an industry consensus of what can be done really.
• 0:11
  Trevor: Yeah, there is still like a massive disconnect from what is going on with regulations to the manufacturers, what they have to do, then, then down to the field technicians here in North America.
• 0:12
  And I think this is global as well. Cause some people say, Oh, well we're way ahead here versus here. But when I talked to some of the technicians, they're like, no, we're still using this. You know, we're not at this point where we're using these super low GWP or we're full blown on CO2. And I even had a conversation with a manufacturer yesterday.
• 0:13
  They're like, Like Trevor, we're trying to get the message out to the technicians in the, in the contracts, or even the end users. Like they're at the point where the end users have to do these changes. There's the regulations pushing them and they're still just, they're still just not there yet. Like the big ones for sure.
• 0:14
  Like the bigger ones they're on priority because they got hundreds of thousands of stores and they're, they, they have to be. You know, but when you got 50 stores or 20 stores or certain units, it's just, they're not, they're still working on the old refrigerant. And I think they're going to get hit the hardest because all of a sudden when the prices go up for refrigerant, uh, it gets to a point where you can't get that refrigerant or get those parts that, that, that equipment, that's going to be a big struggle.
• 0:15
  And this is why that. There's we need to get that information out to the field technician or or that those contractors to really help them What have you seen in the uk? Is that a similar way? I think I know you guys are ahead because of the f gas But have you been seeing a disconnect there as well in certain areas?
• 0:16
  Neil: Yeah, I think so. I think there's a real Um, and I mean, I know industry trade bodies, they would say this, but there's a real sense of collective action, and we've got to start doing that, you know, you'll have, as you said, retail is a really interesting one, because you'll see, um, probably to a lesser degree in your way, but some of what you're seeing on your side in, in, in North America of like the big, the big retailers have the money, although not necessarily even within them, I know that it's usually a few people within these huge organizations, uh, With the responsibility and understanding, you know, we talk about end users, but I think now a lot of events we've had, they've talked about at a managerial level and I get it.
• 0:17
  They've got a lot on, but you know how it's not for them to understand what's going on in their sites. So you think of how many retail sites, someone like Walmart ads, and yet, you know, it's, it's a couple of individuals, even within these big organizations that have that. I think, yeah, we're seeing that scaled down to what we'd call our convenience retailers or corner shops in the UK.
• 0:18
  There's big questions, really. Who's. There are networks and things, but who's really supporting that? Who's going to be there going in and helping people out when the margins are even finer, that, you know, they can make that work for them. And I think, as you said, it's that connect between the practical side, the well intentioned, yes, this is.
• 0:19
  Where industry needs to go is I think that understanding is there. Um, certainly across Europe, that's what needs to happen, but there's still, I think, a cynicism between how are we just going to get dumped with the high minded policy? We just get dumped with that. And how is that actually going to be delivered?
• 0:20
  So, um, yeah, I think that's, that's what we see quite a lot, um, in how that's going to happen. And I think it's, it's quite scary sometimes just how that expertise, even in a Walmart, even in our side, uh, uh, Tesco or something. to find there's a few people really who got that and the responsibilities on them across what could be hundreds and thousands of stores that understand all that cooling how
• 0:21
  Trevor: that's all going to work so Yeah, because you can't just change all this overnight.
• 0:22
  It just does. It's not like that, but some of the regulations are pushing to have this kind of like an overnight switch. And it's just not, it's not possible. And the, and you can't, you don't have enough of the people. You don't have the, even the, all the equipment yet, the regulations aren't even fine tuned, you know what I mean?
• 0:23
  Cause they continue to change and they have amendments and stuff like that. But what I really see and what I really need. To get out there is really that safety side of it. You got flammable refrigerants, you have a mildly flammable refrigerants, and it's, it's very important that we prepare the, the end user for this as well as the technician, because it's not only a technician, , that has to deal with this, the end user as well.
• 0:24
  Right. So, cause they got to get in different insurance, potentially they got to get in, you know, Fire marshal regulations, building codes, and there's a lot to it. And you just can't change all this overnight for, okay, well, the refrigeration refrigerant needs to change.
• 0:25
  Neil: Yeah. And it's funny you mentioned we, we, uh, And my former editor, before I took over, um, editing two magazines, uh, last February, but Andrew Gavid, uh, my, my former editor, Um, he, we used to, we still have an FGAS question time, such as the, probably our biggest event, because the legislation is so sort of myriad, and people, as you said, actually, there's an understanding, even if it's just a term of, a dread of, oh god, FGAS is a term, what does that mean?
• 0:26
  And wanting to have that, but you know, I think in our job, we've seen the power of language. I mean, it's funny you were mentioning about, um, mildly flammable and a few experts who gave us that term. So we would write about mildly flammable for quite a while. Um, and now some going, actually, we shouldn't use that.
• 0:27
  We should call it lower flammability or because the power of language, I think is that mild, there was a worry that mildly flammable was not really meaning. Well, it doesn't sound too bad. Well, no, you still got to understand that you've still got to, you know, but I think it almost. They became a bit, actually, it's mildly flammable, a bit nebulous.
• 0:28
  So we got told, the old event, we've been sort of talking about that. A few of our experts, one year, just suddenly go, maybe actually we should be calling it lower flammability, higher flammability now, because these terms, uh, they're not really meaning anything to people on the ground, or perhaps inadvertently underplaying, as you said, like this stuff's got to be managed.
• 0:29
  Now, even if it's, yeah, it's not higher flammability, still got to know what you're doing, where it's going, what equipment you're putting it in as well.
• 0:30
  Trevor: I like that lower flammability versus higher flammability, you know, because that's really what what happens because depending on how much air to the space, there's a lot of calculations and it is lower flammability and I kind of like that term.
• 0:31
  I'll probably try to use that a bit more because it does, it does sound a little bit different. You know what I mean? Um, because lots of things are flammable out there, but how flammable is it? And I keep seeing like, people have been using R29 here in North America for decades, you know what I mean? And they just do, and people are working on it every day.
• 0:32
  Like here in North America, there's a company called true, uh, refrigeration manufacturer, true manufacturer. They switched like 10 years ago to all propane units. So. technicians been working on for a long time, but they never really dove into the conversation of, okay, is it, , highly flammable, lower flammability?
• 0:33
  So, but they've been fixing it and working on it. But I think for me, it's the safety side for those, cause these, most of these technicians have been working on a long time to have that experience. There's going to be a lot of newer technicians working on it, maybe not understanding or not getting the training yet for the lower flammability.
• 0:34
  But I think this is, these are the good conversation that we need to have because A lot of technicians are working on, but they maybe haven't been trained on the safety side of it. Uh, have you seen that in the UK as well?
• 0:35
  Neil: Oh yeah, very much. And funny how she said it, that exact experience actually, because I think we're starting to see things like propane, the use of that in smaller capacities, as you said, you know, and you speak to some people, I think they're aghast of why would it not be safe, because we've been, you know, Can be people with over a decade of also experience of systems and supporting that.
• 0:36
  But as you said, if we're talking about expanding that out and understanding sort of efficient design for these different refrigerants. Um, I think that's sort of, uh, yeah, the big issue people are having there. But also, I think it seems ridiculous, because it's like, well, some of these companies have no propane inside out, have been using it for years, and, and the people who are already using it, it would, well, you know, we've been using that.
• 0:37
  I think it's just that different application, really, where, as you said, you're going out now, And I think probably as your point was Trevor about the, um, the fact that we're engineers who perhaps have worked a very specific way with a very specific product, they're going to be increasingly asked to, to develop skills and be able to understand how, how different refrigerants fit in.
• 0:38
  Um, even though quite well, there'll be, there'll be a fair few people already who'll be, who'd have used what alternative refrigerants is, is, is, I know we're sort of calling them as well.
• 0:39
  Trevor: . And that's the thing though, like they've been working on for this long and I've even seen, they, they've figured it out.
• 0:40
  They've done it. Um, but I think it's the terminology, the wording that people use that, but, oh, well, baby, I shouldn't touch it. I've been doing this for 10 years. Those guys will be like, well, now when they pass on along that knowledge, They're probably using different terms as well. Well, it's R290. You got to do this, this, this.
• 0:41
  This is the process to make sure you're safe. , and you'll learn how to work with it better and easier as you work on it more. But the big thing is, is that you got to work on it safely. Because there are places around the world where people are getting hurt. With it because they have not been trained on it.
• 0:42
  And I don't think they have the, you know, they haven't, , been taught how to safely work on it. And then you hear about those big stories, but you don't hear about the millions of other pieces of equipment that have been worked on already, because really every refrigerant, somebody in the world probably was hurt with it one time or another.
• 0:43
  From freezer burns from, the toxicity of it, whatever it is, you know what I mean, every refrigerant out there, uh, because they are toxic in some sort of way or another, affixiation and things like that, but the big thing is that safety factor and not being scared of, of learning how to work on it safely.
• 0:44
  Neil: Yeah. And I think the context as well as, as you said, because, you know, in many ways, there's, there's an undeniable climate friendly argument, but, you know, I think when I, when I work with colleagues sometimes and they're coming in, you, it's about. When we say climate friendly refrigerant or things like that, well, it's a lot more, it's true in a way, but it's important.
• 0:45
  We understand the nuances of you said about, you know, all of this stuff involves learning to use it well, the right time, making sure industry's ready to, to kind of deliver that. So it's, it's a little bit, I think probably cutting through. The buzz, but as you said, having, hopefully having a responsible role to talk about all, all these things in many ways are going to have a part to play.
• 0:46
  So it's kind of not, it's not scaring people off, but being realistic about when we're moving to this, you've got to think now, not for your own health and safety, but for, I think the reputation of the industry as well. It's like, we have to get this, this right. And of course, because it's, there's time pressures.
• 0:47
  I mean, you all know, there's trouble with people you speak to on the ground, there's, there's time and money pressure. So. I understand there's a daunting bit of right. So I've got to, this is another thing we got to learn. I've got to add my upskilling and things as well. And it is definitely daunting. As I say, in a way, it's kind of nice that I get to write about it.
• 0:48
  Sometimes it's a fast, it's quite a complex subject to write about. Um, but actually I don't always, you know, it's easy for me to go, Oh, that's fine. We'll just, you know, you just need to upskill hundreds of thousands of people in, in five or six years, you know, the practicalities of that are kind of mind blowing.
• 0:49
  And so it's always trained
• 0:50
  Trevor: not to forget that. Exactly. And I, I like the way you put that because that, that's the thing. A lot of people are like, Oh, well, you can just go and learn it tomorrow and figure it out. You know, that's not the case for technicians in the field. They still got full time jobs. They got to support their family.
• 0:51
  They got jobs that have been holding. And now all of a sudden they got to learn or all of a sudden they get up to a store and they've never seen, , an R290 system or, uh, uh, propane system, or, uh, you know what I mean? This lower flammability refrigerant or even CO2. You know, they're just strolling up as a regular refrigeration day and all of a sudden it's this New refrigerant they're going to work with.
• 0:52
  And, and that's it. That's what we want. We need the regulators to understand and the manufacturers to understand too. You know what I mean? That it's different in the field when they're on it, working on it. So they, we need to support the technicians out there and the contractors as much as possible because it's changing rapidly.
• 0:53
  And, uh, like you said, there's millions of technicians out there around the world. They're all going to be trained overnight and refrigeration takes years to learn. It's. It's not like you just do one training and they know how to do refrigeration. So, and the process is along with that.
• 0:54
  Neil: Yeah, definitely.
• 0:55
  And you know, I think I've been through, I think one of the other things through RAC last seven years has been the launch of the, the world refrigeration day campaign by, um, by Steve Gill a few groups about trying to get this understanding, but, but through that and talking to people, I know there's the, um, the pan Africa association, new free arc, which, uh, They're, they're working a lot with, um, trade bodies, um, with ASHRAE and things in North America, but in Europe as well about, because they're at a different challenge.
• 0:56
  I know, um, Maddy Seconde represents them. I was often talks about, they, they've got to move even quicker to how Europe and the U S you know, in North America, There, you know, in Europe, there's, it's still quite a tight schedule, but in Africa, there's now an expectation of going straight to higher flammability things where they're perhaps still using R22 in some, you know, it's, it's that the scale they face is, is again, it's all out of sight, out of mind.
• 0:57
  But it's just that it's the global challenge in many ways, we're just perhaps at different parts along the way of doing that.
• 0:58
  Trevor: Yeah, I had Matty on the podcast. He was talking about that. There's massive challenges around that continent. You know what I mean? Like from having even the proper tools to work on some of the equipment, you know, he was telling me in the schools, they don't, they don't have the stuff to always to learn.
• 0:59
  And depending on the certain parts of the continent. So, you know, different challenges versus, Here in Canada or there in the UK. So we've got to look at that. How do we help and support them in there? And they do a great job. Steve Gill, Maddie does an amazing job, those guys. So definitely go and check out their websites as well and follow them on different social media to see their progress, because they're really trying to push the mark to help the global economy of refrigeration.
• 1:00
  So I, I see. As the regulations change and as, you know, we start to evolve in refrigeration, what are some of the latest stories that you've been working on that have been exciting you to really move the mark for refrigeration? Because it has been changing real fast.
• 1:01
  Neil: Um, yeah, I mean, one of the things, it's so true because it seems, you know, on a, on a small level, there's a bit, it's quite interesting about the UK, In of itself at the minute, looking up to overheating and I think part of it's just looking at what's been going on in continental Europe in traditionally much.
• 1:02
  Um, and, and, and the summer we've had in the UK, it seems a bit ridiculous to be talking about overheating here with the, even by our standards, the amount of rain we've had, but it's interesting that, you know, even at a domestic level now, there's kind of an extent, well, cooling, even in the, there's a UK toll, but whether passive cooling, whether looking at reversible heat pumps, which I know have been a big thing in, in France has been a huge driver is the cooling side from what I understand has been, been a large part of where, where France has looked at.
• 1:03
  Okay. Heat plant. So the UK is trying to understand at the minute, things get a few degrees hotter here, um, as, as we're expecting in the next few years, you know, what, what does that mean? And, and in a way, I guess it's kind of, does this just mean we're putting in air conditioning systems in probably unlikely, but you know, there's going to be a huge grid demand.
• 1:04
  So I've kind of been fascinated in, in looking at how that's factoring into policy, building design. Um, what that's going to mean about, um, capabilities to, to deliver cooling in that scale. Um, so that's been quite a big one. And the other thing interesting, I was at a trade show, um, recently here in, in Birmingham and in England.
• 1:05
  And, um, Uh, was the, the talk of training every manufacturer I kind of spoke to was looking for a theme on all about training and skills in their role, whether they were a component supplier right down to a standalone system and what they were having to actually do, whether their own training academies.
• 1:06
  So there were certain companies of a scale where that was in, but actually even then. their actual relationship with their end users, their suppliers, and how they're getting, um, mostly on the heat pump side, but I think the refrigerant was really the main one of what we've got to make sure people that we can't just give them that and a bit of a manual and say that's enough now.
• 1:07
  Um, you know, just follow the instructions. You'll be, you'll be fine. It's a different, much more, I think complexity was used quite a few times. Things were much more And across, some of us will say HVACR, so across heating and cooling, but the complexity of what we're dealing with, the different technologies, um, that are there are a big one.
• 1:08
  And I think the other theme is kind of, um, is the, you know, tech agnostic, kind of the different approaches to decarbonization, that broader theme, whether it's industrial, commercial, domestic, just, you know, it's not going to be one technology. The days of there being a sort of fairly simple solution that you'd stick in the corner.
• 1:09
  Um, I'll put some plant room in that that's a lot more down to the individual needs, individual companies, um, and retailers, even as you said, someone who will swear by, um, swear by propane or CO2 and others who will, you know, will argue, well, actually that's, we're not there yet and that's not going to work.
• 1:10
  So that's the probably, well, some of the fascinating things, complexity, Trevor is what I'm going to go for. Probably it's getting very complex in an already, you know, very technical field. There's, there's kind of a lot of complexity to that.
• 1:11
  Trevor: Yeah. And I think the big difference between 30 or 40 years ago is where a lot of the equipment manufacturers built at the same, they made the, you know, you could go work on three or four or five and they all look the same, work the same.
• 1:12
  Now it's, there's all proprietary, there's different controllers. There's a lot, like you said, more complexity. So it's not like you just go to one manufacturer and then you jump to the next one, unless you have a really good understanding of how to diagnose both System and then understand the intricacies of each one.
• 1:13
  Um, and, and for example, the heat pump, that's the funny thing, you know, that the heat pumps are big, big thing, but they've been out since for over 40 years, you know what I mean? It's not like he pumps are, are new to our industry, just like CO2. And a lot of these other things, propane, it's not like they're new.
• 1:14
  It's just there. Being revitalized and revamped and regulations is pushing that. , and I think that's it. The manufacturers are trying, like a lot of them are trying their best, but I think our industry is really strapped for talent, uh, globally, not there's not like we get tons and tons of new people coming in, it's not promoted into high schools as it should be.
• 1:15
  And I'm not sure if it's the same in the UK and I think it is globally, but like still people are being pushed to university college, which is great. I, we want, I want more people to be educated. At the end of the day, but we don't see them going into as much into the trade. So we got, we got all these massive gaps, depending on where you're at in Canada and the U S and Australia and the UK, Europe doesn't matter.
• 1:16
  And I think that's, that's really what's affecting it. Cause we need smart people in our industry. Now, a lot of people say, Oh, you go into trade. If you don't really know how to read and this, that, but that's not true. You need to be, you need to be quite smart to get into a trade. That's why you get paid six.
• 1:17
  seven figures, , in refrigeration.
• 1:18
  Neil: And I always like we'd had, um, but we, we have, uh, the cooling industry awards and we're, we're just in the, um, doing our student of the year and price spot of that, that we do with the Institute of refrigeration here in the UK. And we're doing sort of face to face judging, but the amount of people like preliminary, you're at really interesting competitive year.
• 1:19
  I think the most candidates we've had, certainly since I've been doing it. And, and a lot of them all really fascinating people, but very few of them, I was sort of jokingly and very charmingly, but you know, they, they'd never have picked this industry. You know, a few people maybe had, cause it was a family they'd come in through.
• 1:20
  And the family member had gotten them into it. And then, you know, they were thinking, well, the pay could be, you know, it's a bit, a bit of learning to do, but the pay sounds good, But a few people, slightly through that STEM field, who'd fallen into it, who were perhaps looking at another engineering, you know, even within engineering, there's the, we talk about the scale of it and in particularly in the UK with heat, but, you know, cooling across Europe and the scale of what's needed.
• 1:21
  And yeah, as you said, I guess our message of how we're selling that to people is, you know, people fall in and then go, Oh, wow, there's going to be incredible technical work. I get to the skills I get to use here. But it's that again, I think, as you said, disconnect a bit about. The type of roles you can do, you know, if you enjoy that technical side, there's.
• 1:22
  huge amounts of sort of challenges and, and, you know, to get your teeth into. But, but again, just so many of the people is interestingly were just, you know, selling's a bit of the wrong word because that, that almost shuts down the amount of work they put in to get there. But I think finding themselves in this industry and going, I'll give it a go.
• 1:23
  You know, I don't know. I think that's it. No. Okay. I understand. I understand stuff goes on. It keeps me comfortable, but actually But that, when they got in, oh, I had no idea the scale of the type of work that was going on here. And once they're only in training, they're doing it. And I thought that's interesting, and I don't, you know, that's a bit probably admitting sort of a media defeat of what we're doing in our role as trade media at the minute, or the broader media landscape.
• 1:24
  And when we talk about vocational training, but, but it is interesting about that. And I don't know what the obvious answer is. Solution is it's very, you know, particularly young people, I understand why it might not initially grab them, but I guess getting people finding their way in and empowering them or making them feel that there's, there might be something worth investigating here.
• 1:25
  Trevor: There's so much to it. Same with me. I didn't know anything about it. I fell into it by accident because I didn't even know anyone in this industry and it, I had multiple careers in it and it keeps pulling me back cause I travel the world because of it. You know what I mean? I make a good, a good career, make good money from refrigeration.
• 1:26
  The public doesn't understand, you know, it is a hard job, you know what I mean? But if you can get that experience and get that knowledge, you can, you can do things that we're doing. You know, you know, but it's to get that, that kickoff because there's no, I don't know, any, any career or anything where you can start off and make a salary, like you can do in like refrigeration or in the HVAC industry.
• 1:27
  Um, because when you go to college or university, you got to pay. And usually when you start out this, you start getting paid, you know? So it's, uh, it's getting a foot in the door. And I see that globally is the same issue. Cause when I talk to people from every, any other country, they're just like, I don't know, we don't know how to get more people in the industry, but I don't know what they're, I asked them, what are you doing?
• 1:28
  You know what I mean? And there's usually a blank stare, you know, I went to one, one event, you know what I mean? So what doing one event is not really going to help the masses think about refrigeration. So it's getting out to that public more. I think, what is next for the H and V news and RAC magazine? What, what do you guys, Got plan what's coming up to get some events coming up in the near future. Uh, what's going on?
• 1:29
  Neil: Uh, yeah, I think we um, i mean it's funny actually, you know You very kindly joined us for um, the story of the future event last year that we'd um That we'd held an association with copeland and I think the next year or so Both in the store of the future. And I think looking holistically, we're going to be doing a much more, some really interesting stuff came out of that event about the compromises.
• 1:30
  When you drive efficiency somewhere, you lose, you sometimes lose, perhaps it's waste heat or, and, and they're trying to get the capabilities, that holistic understanding in the building process of this whole building system. So I think we'll be looking at a bit of that. And we've got, uh, FGAS question time, slightly of political changes we've, we've had here.
• 1:31
  We'll, uh, We'll be doing, um, something of that later in the year to try and work out what's going to be happening in the UK, maybe get a bit of insight from, from Europe that's just put in the new FGAS regs, and I think that's still, it all kicks into gear next year, so that'll be an interesting one as well, sort of bracing, not so much for the storm, but bracing for probably big changes.
• 1:32
  I think things fell. Things are fairly understood at the minning. So there'll be a big changes again on that one. I'm looking at that. And then from our heating side as well. It's the ongoing, um, ongoing decarbonisation, heat pumps, all that to come. And so we'll be having, um, probably going back to our sort of safety, better building summits next year as well, which will be good to kick in and talk about.
• 1:33
  Again, this holistic side seems to be what people are asking. So the ventilation side that we used to cover and people would just go, it's really not great. You know, we're, we're trying to prioritize safety. So it's a bit post COVID trying to get the better buildings to them. I know it sounds like a horrible marketing term, but you know, it's, it's making sure people are safe, comfortable.
• 1:34
  Um, and I think that's kind of, it sounds almost casual that you'd expect that. But as we know, it's, that's where the huge challenges. So I think that's, it's a bit in our, how we sell that and talk to people about, yeah, the, the better buildings, but all the complex things that
• 1:35
  Trevor: entails. Yeah, because there is a lot of it because it's different there.
• 1:36
  It's different than here. Cause I know when I was there and a lot of stores, there was no air conditioning, there was no climate controls in the houses is different here. You know, we got a lot of central air, you know what I mean? We need the heating cause it's freezing here in the winter. And then it's boiling in the summertime.
• 1:37
  So, so we, we have those extremes here where it's, it's a little different there, but The temperatures continue to rise there from everyone I've talked to like, Oh, I wish I had an air conditioner today. You know what I mean?
• 1:38
  Neil: Yes.
• 1:39
  Trevor: Yeah. And
• 1:40
  Neil: I think it becomes a scene, you know, and I know Maddy says this, even in, even in Africa, in, in sort of sub Saharan Africa, but it's still seen as a luxury, you know, that's good.
• 1:41
  You can afford air conditioning. And again, it's that bed of buildings. It's all people's expectations are, they're going to expect to be in their homes. And as you said, like have a certain level of comfort, ideally, that's affordable. Um, and sustainable as well. But again, at the minute there'll be, there'll be a huge thing, not least in, in Europe, but even in Africa, I know people have said about, yeah, that the idea that it's a luxury and, you know, there are certain luxury bikes, but the idea that a certain level of comfort should be, you know, that's nice if you can afford it.
• 1:42
  I don't know if that will, how, how that will keep contact with reality. As you said, when the more extreme, whichever way it goes, the hotter and colder we get, um, the more extremes we face. I mean, that's going to be quite a big one. Yeah.
• 1:43
  Trevor: Yeah, because it was a luxury here at one point here in Canada, you know, at some point it was a luxury when I first came out and then, you know, that's it.
• 1:44
  And then it got more and more and more and more happened where it's still actually, it is a luxury to have, you know, because you know, when it breaks down and you don't have anyone to come fix it. You're screaming and crying when it's 40 celsius outside. So neil I want to thank you for taking the time to have this conversation I know we'll have more great ones.
• 1:45
  How can people find out more about you? the magazines and to really learn more maybe if they want to dive in and get an idea of uh, All the great stuff that you're reporting on for the refrigeration industry.
• 1:46
  Neil: Well said, I always appreciate it Trevor, it's always there, we can always do with the uh, promotion.
• 1:47
  But we, I mean, HME I mean, we're quite European focused, but I think, you know, we're looking a lot at SNAP in the U. S. We're, and I think those, the global patterns, particularly at Kigali, and we're looking at. So, you know, if you're interested in the policy side, getting a European view, how that ties into the wider global picture.
• 1:48
  And we've got HNB News, so our live presence, we're on, and we're on Twitter and LinkedIn, but with HVN, HVNplus. co. uk, and similarly there'll be RACplus. com, and that'll be our sort of daily news sites as well, and that'll have things there, how people can sign up for newsletters or our digital editions. Um, and it really, I think we're quite supply chain focused.
• 1:49
  So if that's an interest or you're looking for a, uh, a sort of European global view of where things stand, that's, and it may well be of interest to you on our, on our online sites.
• 1:50
  Trevor: Yeah, no, I love that because it, no, for honestly, like, I I follow news all around the world for refrigeration and it's changing.
• 1:51
  It's different everywhere It's good to see it different perspectives from different people because when you're just hearing it from the same people Or the same place or the same country all the time Um, it gives you a you know a tunnel view versus okay. Well, what's happening in africa? What is happening in asia?
• 1:52
  What's happening in australia? What's happening in europe? You know what I mean? So And that's kind of what I look at to try to give myself a better view so I can help educate more people globally. So I really appreciate what you're doing. I enjoyed this conversation and look forward to chatting with you again, Neil.
• 1:53
  Thank you so much. Thanks Trevor. I really appreciate it. Have a good day.