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Is Sophisticated Investor status worth the effort? · The Money Puzzle

0:11
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm
0:14
Speaker 1: James Kirby, the wealth editor at The Australian. Welcome aboard, everybody.
0:19
Speaker 1: You may know one of the biggest megatrends in money,
0:23
Speaker 1: in wealth, is coming down the line. It's the transfer
0:27
Speaker 1: of what they call intergenerational wealth. Now, the Productivity Commission,
0:31
Speaker 1: and you can trust the Productivity Commission on their numbers,
0:35
Speaker 1: at least, and they said in a recent report, there's
0:39
Speaker 1: 3.5 trillion, trillion to be handed down between the generations
0:43
Speaker 1: in the next 30 years. A little bit sooner, Deloitte
0:47
Speaker 1: tells us that there's half a million Australians are going
0:50
Speaker 1: to retire in the next five years. So as you
0:52
Speaker 1: can see, it's going to be a lot of money
0:54
Speaker 1: transferred in Australia. And many people in the middle of
0:58
Speaker 1: this transition really have very little idea how to manage wealth,
1:04
Speaker 1: particularly if they don't or won't use financial advisors. My
1:10
Speaker 1: guest today is ideal on this subject. His name is
1:14
Speaker 1: Ray Tubman, and he's been in the wealth business software
1:18
Speaker 1: side for quite some time, and obviously in the business
1:22
Speaker 1: of wealth for some time as well, because he's sold
1:24
Speaker 1: two companies in the past. The one he's probably best
1:27
Speaker 1: known for was the sale of the Infocomp group back
1:31
Speaker 1: in 2007 to the GBST group that was reported $ 50
1:36
Speaker 1: million at the time, $ 56 million back in 2007. He
1:38
Speaker 1: went and did it again. with the second company, Finocomp,
1:42
Speaker 1: which he sold to Bravura Solutions, the listed group.
1:45
Speaker 2: More recently.
1:46
Speaker 1: And now he's up and away with a group called
1:50
Speaker 1: Air Wealth. That's H-E-I-R, Air Wealth Group. It's a platform
1:57
Speaker 1: really for advisors who are dealing with wealthier Australians and
2:01
Speaker 1: gives us, I think, hopefully an insight that we haven't
2:04
Speaker 1: had before to the whole landscape, if you like, of
2:08
Speaker 1: making money in Australia. How are you, Ray?
2:11
Speaker 2: Very well.
2:11
Speaker 1: Thank you, James. Thanks for having me on today. Great
2:14
Speaker 1: to have you on today. It's interesting because obviously, as
2:17
Speaker 1: I was saying in the show at the introduction there,
2:20
Speaker 1: you've been on both sides of the fence, if you like.
2:23
Speaker 1: And one of the things about investing in Australia is
2:27
Speaker 1: that there is this formalized legal division between investors. There
2:33
Speaker 1: is everyday investors and there are sophisticated investors and they're
2:37
Speaker 1: actually defined by law.
2:40
Speaker 3: They have.
2:41
Speaker 1: You must have 2.5 million in investable assets or a salary,
2:46
Speaker 1: an income of 250,000 per annum for two years in
2:49
Speaker 1: a row. And you must prove this with an accountant's certificate.
2:55
Speaker 1: First of all, do you think that is actually a
2:59
Speaker 1: good system? Because I know in the US, for instance,
3:03
Speaker 1: you don't have to go through the ropes like that.
3:05
Speaker 1: What do you think? I mean, I know we're protecting people,
3:07
Speaker 1: but it's debatable, isn't it? Oh.
3:10
Speaker 3: I actually think it is fair to have some sort
3:12
Speaker 3: of differential between sophisticated and retail investors. Obviously, if you're
3:18
Speaker 3: a retail investor, there's a lot more safety nets and
3:22
Speaker 3: protection put in place.
3:24
Speaker 2: But I think for people who.
3:28
Speaker 3: Understand what they're investing in and are prepared to take
3:30
Speaker 3: the risk, then I think that's fair that they should
3:33
Speaker 3: be able to go into those wholesale investments. I know
3:36
Speaker 3: that ASIC are proposing increasing the levels from $ 2. 5 million
3:42
Speaker 3: of assets up to $ 4. 5 million and from $ 250, 000 income
3:43
Speaker 3: up to I think it's $ 450, 000. I think that's quite
3:46
Speaker 3: reasonable because Interestingly enough, the limits were put in place
3:58
Speaker 3: in 2001.
3:59
Speaker 1: And they were never indexed.
4:01
Speaker 2: They were never indexed.
4:02
Speaker 3: So at the time, they covered 1.9% of Australia's population.
4:07
Speaker 3: And today, obviously with property prices booming and all the
4:11
Speaker 3: rest of it, it now allows about 16% of Australia's
4:16
Speaker 3: population to get a sophisticated investment certificate. The other thing
4:21
Speaker 3: I would ask is... just because you have money, investable money,
4:27
Speaker 3: and just because you have income, it doesn't necessarily make
4:32
Speaker 3: you a sophisticated investor. So I think there's still some
4:36
Speaker 3: traps around that.
4:37
Speaker 1: I mean, as I've said in the past, you can
4:39
Speaker 1: be thick as a brick. And if someone hands you
4:42
Speaker 1: $ 2 million, you're in. You're sophisticated by definition, and that's
4:46
Speaker 1: no good. I did read some of the submissions on
4:48
Speaker 1: this inquiry, and some operators, I think I'm almost certain Wilson,
4:53
Speaker 1: that being Jeff Wilson and co, they're suggesting an exam,
4:58
Speaker 1: not just money in the bank, but an exam. What
5:00
Speaker 1: do you think of that?
5:01
Speaker 3: Well, it would better provide your credentials as a sophisticated
5:06
Speaker 3: investor than just how much money you have or how
5:08
Speaker 3: much money you make. So I actually don't think that's
5:12
Speaker 3: such a silly idea.
5:13
Speaker 2: I think it's quite a good idea.
5:16
Speaker 1: So with you, you obviously are right across this whole
5:19
Speaker 1: thing of the wealth transfer that's going on in Australia.
5:22
Speaker 1: And I know one of the themes that you constantly
5:25
Speaker 1: talk about is the feminization of wealth. Now, a cynical
5:33
Speaker 1: journalist like me will say, I think what he means
5:37
Speaker 1: there is there's going to be a lot of inheritance
5:39
Speaker 1: and wealth transfer, and the actuarial studies tell us that
5:43
Speaker 1: women last longer than men, and so there's going to
5:46
Speaker 1: be a feminization of wealth. Is that it, or is
5:51
Speaker 1: it more complex than that?
5:54
Speaker 2: There are other factors at play. So fantastic.
5:58
Speaker 3: Women entrepreneurs are smashing it at the moment. So they're
6:01
Speaker 3: generating wealth in their own right. Divorce settlements play a
6:04
Speaker 3: part in this. But this huge great wealth transfer that's
6:08
Speaker 3: already begun is, you mentioned $ 3. 5 trillion is going to
6:14
Speaker 3: change hands over the next 20 years. Over the past
6:19
Speaker 3: 20 years, $ 1. 5 trillion has changed hands. So this is
6:22
Speaker 3: growing and there is you're right about the science baby
6:26
Speaker 3: boomers who are aged 60 to 78 now over the
6:30
Speaker 3: next 20 years are going to be passing the statistics
6:33
Speaker 3: show that they tended to marry younger women and women
6:38
Speaker 3: have a longer life expectancy two-thirds of that three and
6:41
Speaker 3: a half trillion dollars that's going to change hands is
6:44
Speaker 3: going to go to surviving spouses and there's lots of
6:48
Speaker 3: gobsmacking statistics about this and In the UK, they've predicted
6:54
Speaker 3: that women will control 60% of family wealth within the
6:59
Speaker 3: next few years. And at some point in their lives,
7:03
Speaker 3: women in the UK, 80% of them will be the
7:07
Speaker 3: sole controllers of the family wealth. In the US, by 2030,
7:12
Speaker 3: they're suggesting that nearly 65% of US family wealth will
7:20
Speaker 3: be controlled.
7:21
Speaker 2: By to women.
7:23
Speaker 1: What does that mean? What does it signal then for
7:26
Speaker 1: the wealth industry or for anyone in the wealth, in
7:29
Speaker 1: the business of making money? What does it signal for
7:33
Speaker 1: the future?
7:34
Speaker 3: Well, I think there's a couple of really interesting aspects
7:37
Speaker 3: of that. One of which is the way women invest
7:43
Speaker 3: can be quite different to the way men invest. So
7:45
Speaker 3: there's a lot of focus on purpose and impact investing
7:51
Speaker 3: with WIMP.
7:53
Speaker 1: A lot of studies have shown.
7:54
Speaker 3: So I think that's going to change the investment.
7:59
Speaker 2: Ground in a lot of respects.
8:02
Speaker 3: And the other thing I think is the whole advice
8:05
Speaker 3: industry needs to be quite focused on this. There's research
8:11
Speaker 3: came out of Schroders.
8:12
Speaker 2: In the United Kingdom that up to 70% of women who.
8:22
Speaker 3: Not surviving spouses, who have been ignored for decades. All
8:28
Speaker 3: of a sudden, they're the point of interest from their
8:31
Speaker 3: financial advice firms, and they don't like it, and they're
8:36
Speaker 3: moving to advisors, to a different advisor within the next
8:40
Speaker 3: 12 months. So what that really means is that there
8:47
Speaker 3: needs to be a strong focus on people that advise
8:49
Speaker 3: these families. needs to be a strong focus on engagement.
8:54
Speaker 3: And engaging at the point of death of the husband
8:57
Speaker 3: is too late.
8:59
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. It's funny, folks, we often have Jackie Clark,
9:02
Speaker 1: for instance, as a regular on the show, and other
9:05
Speaker 1: female advisors. We have several that we talk to all
9:08
Speaker 1: the time. But when I look at the numbers, do
9:10
Speaker 1: you know that only about one in five financial advisors
9:13
Speaker 1: in Australia are female, actually. It's a really interesting one.
9:17
Speaker 1: We'll come back to that very soon in a week
9:20
Speaker 1: or two when we get one of our advisors back
9:22
Speaker 1: on the show. OK, we'll take a short break and
9:24
Speaker 1: we'll be back in a moment. Hello and welcome back
9:35
Speaker 1: to the Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirby, Wealth
9:38
Speaker 1: Editor at The Australian, talking to Ray Tubman. Now, Ray,
9:42
Speaker 1: one of the things you were talking about in your world,
9:44
Speaker 1: when you're giving these, it's interesting. So you're in that
9:47
Speaker 1: sort of junction between the advisors and wealthy Australians and
9:55
Speaker 1: the mass affluent, I suppose we could call them. We
9:58
Speaker 1: were talking earlier about the... sophisticated investors and high net
10:02
Speaker 1: worth investors, of which you are one yourself. Once someone
10:06
Speaker 1: gets over the line, and many of our listeners would
10:09
Speaker 1: aspire to get over the line, to become a sophisticated investor,
10:13
Speaker 1: to be allowed to get into those funds that you
10:15
Speaker 1: can't get into if you're an everyday investor, not qualified.
10:19
Speaker 1: Once you're over that line. Do you, should you think differently?
10:25
Speaker 1: Should you, in what way at its best would it
10:28
Speaker 1: make a difference to get that qualification?
10:33
Speaker 2: It's interesting. The getting over the line enables you to get.
10:38
Speaker 3: In products that you wouldn't normally. But where there's reward,
10:45
Speaker 3: there's risk. So, For me, every time I would hand
10:50
Speaker 3: over a sophisticated investor's certificate, I would want to make sure.
10:57
Speaker 2: Absolutely that I understand the product.
11:00
Speaker 3: So I always have a philosophy of never investing in
11:03
Speaker 3: a product I don't understand because some of them are
11:05
Speaker 3: quite complex. But me, myself, I still use a financial advisor. Hello, Heath,
11:12
Speaker 3: who looks after my interests, who gives me, because that's
11:16
Speaker 3: their job and I rely on his recommendations and advice.
11:20
Speaker 3: And at the end of the day, you've got to
11:22
Speaker 3: be prepared that where there's reward, there's also risk.
11:26
Speaker 1: It has been reported regularly that sophisticated advisors often get
11:29
Speaker 1: bid in. And the first thing they do is they
11:31
Speaker 1: go into IPOs, pre-IPO, because the stockbroker signs them up,
11:37
Speaker 1: says you should be sophisticated. And then the stockbroker calls
11:40
Speaker 1: and goes, guess what? You're sophisticated now. And I've got
11:42
Speaker 1: a beautiful little IPO for you. statistically, the majority of
11:46
Speaker 1: these do not make money for people. That's often an area.
11:49
Speaker 1: Is there an area that you thought you couldn't be
11:53
Speaker 1: bothered with, even though you're now entitled to get in there?
11:55
Speaker 1: And is there an area that you think people would
11:57
Speaker 1: be rewarded with in examining?
12:02
Speaker 3: So there's lots of really interesting private market funds and
12:07
Speaker 3: products available.
12:08
Speaker 2: There's IPOs, etc.
12:10
Speaker 3: I personally have gone into venture funds of course it's
12:14
Speaker 3: tech and at least if I can understand the philosophy
12:19
Speaker 3: behind how they're investing then I can either go with
12:23
Speaker 3: the sort of the objectives of the fund or not
12:26
Speaker 3: so I tend to invest in areas that I'm familiar
12:30
Speaker 3: with and same into private companies I invest into private
12:34
Speaker 3: companies but I've got to really do my due diligence
12:39
Speaker 3: and I treat some of these with You caution and
12:44
Speaker 3: never invest money that I can't afford to lose. Which
12:47
Speaker 3: matters most, the tech or the team? I think the
12:50
Speaker 3: team's highly important. Coming from a tech background, I know
12:54
Speaker 3: that some people just are good and they pick the
12:58
Speaker 3: market and they do the right things in distributing their
13:02
Speaker 3: products to market.
13:04
Speaker 2: Got to be both for me.
13:05
Speaker 3: It's got to be, I can see the purpose of
13:08
Speaker 3: what they're trying to deliver and the upheaval they intend
13:12
Speaker 3: to cause into the market they're going into, but also
13:16
Speaker 3: that people have got runs on the board. Because, frankly,
13:18
Speaker 3: it's a difficult thing.
13:21
Speaker 2: A lot of startups fail, right?
13:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
13:24
Speaker 1: It was a rhetorical question, really, because I was going
13:25
Speaker 1: to ask you, like, if you came across something and
13:28
Speaker 1: the technology was fabulous and you know it's fabulous and
13:31
Speaker 1: you say to yourself, this is fantastic, these people really
13:34
Speaker 1: have something, but then you say, this team is a mess,
13:37
Speaker 1: these people are never going to get across the line,
13:40
Speaker 1: Does that stop you investing?
13:42
Speaker 2: Yes, it would.
13:43
Speaker 3: There's blood splatters everywhere in history of tech companies that
13:47
Speaker 3: had great tech. But tech's one thing. Execution and commercialization
13:52
Speaker 3: is a completely other thing. And it kind of needs
13:56
Speaker 3: to be a sweet combination of both to really gain success.
14:00
Speaker 1: Just one last thing on the sophisticated investor front. They
14:03
Speaker 1: are often also approached as After IPOs, the next sort
14:08
Speaker 1: of alleged treasure chest that is put in front of
14:12
Speaker 1: newly qualified or newly minted sophisticated investors is property opportunities. Development, invariably,
14:19
Speaker 1: where they're off the plan regularly. How do you view
14:23
Speaker 1: property as a sophisticated investor?
14:27
Speaker 3: As you become a sophisticated investor, I guess there's a
14:29
Speaker 3: lot more opportunities around property. And I've all I personally
14:36
Speaker 3: always run a healthy skepticism of property development, but I
14:40
Speaker 3: know you're right. They do target sophisticated investors. Once you
14:48
Speaker 3: get that sophisticated investor status, there's lots of very good
14:54
Speaker 3: managed property funds available in the private market space, and
15:00
Speaker 3: where you put down a capital commitment and you contribute
15:04
Speaker 3: as required. They're run by managers who have got a
15:08
Speaker 3: track record, and I think that's an important thing to
15:12
Speaker 3: look at, track record of success, and they've.
15:16
Speaker 2: Been around a while.
15:17
Speaker 3: I tend to avoid those that are new on the scene, personally. Obviously,
15:23
Speaker 3: with high net worth, there's more money that is investable,
15:27
Speaker 3: strong focus on commercial properties, not just residentials, where you're
15:32
Speaker 3: looking at long-term properties yields that can be quite attractive
15:36
Speaker 3: as well. So I think there's, in that space, there
15:40
Speaker 3: becomes lots of interesting options.
15:43
Speaker 1: And just how did you find them, Ray? Did you
15:45
Speaker 1: find them through an advisor?
15:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, I look, I do. I know I'm in a
15:49
Speaker 3: number of property funds and they'd been vetted. It's like
15:56
Speaker 3: getting electrical work done for me. I don't want to
15:58
Speaker 3: tamper with the switchboard myself. I want somebody that knows
16:03
Speaker 3: what they're doing. can advise me. And then I review myself,
16:08
Speaker 3: but I'm really dependent. I like to depend on my
16:11
Speaker 3: advisor and they cost money, but they can also make
16:15
Speaker 3: money and avoid losing money.
16:18
Speaker 1: Interesting. Listeners were talking about the cost of advice on average,
16:23
Speaker 1: if it seemed to be a 5,000 a year or
16:25
Speaker 1: so on a running basis. And that would be the case,
16:30
Speaker 1: particularly for sophisticated advisors, it could be higher than that,
16:33
Speaker 1: or they could have several advisors, or they could talk
16:35
Speaker 1: to their advisors a lot more than you do, certainly
16:37
Speaker 1: more than once a year, let me tell you. But
16:39
Speaker 1: it's interesting, as the point that Ray makes, and it's
16:42
Speaker 1: often made to me by sophisticated and high net worth investors,
16:46
Speaker 1: that advice is, good advice is more than worth it.
16:50
Speaker 1: And if it saves you, particularly if it saves you
16:52
Speaker 1: from losing money, then you can work it out very fast.
16:55
Speaker 1: If you save... If you could have lost 50 grand
16:58
Speaker 1: and you paid 5,000 to find out, that was going
17:01
Speaker 1: to be a loss-making situation. You've got to think it's
17:04
Speaker 1: worth it. All right, we'll take a short break. We'll
17:06
Speaker 1: be back with some questions. Hello, welcome back to the
17:18
Speaker 1: Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirby talking to Ray
17:21
Speaker 1: Tubman from Air Wealth, that is H-E-I-R Wealth. the software
17:27
Speaker 1: house which offers a platform for financial advisors interacting with
17:31
Speaker 1: their wealthy investors in Australia. I have a question from Jake.
17:36
Speaker 1: Why do we have to spend the money in our
17:38
Speaker 1: super to buy a first home? There is a large
17:41
Speaker 1: number of young people guaranteed via the bank of mom
17:45
Speaker 1: and dad. Why can't we use our own super as
17:48
Speaker 1: a guarantor with the bank? Jake, you are really on
17:52
Speaker 1: to something. This issue of can you use your super
17:55
Speaker 1: to buy a house isn't going to go away. And
17:57
Speaker 1: I'll tell you something. There's very sort of simple black
18:01
Speaker 1: and white sort of proposes up at the moment. For instance,
18:04
Speaker 1: that you just take money out of your super and
18:06
Speaker 1: buy a house. But there is more sophisticated innovations coming
18:10
Speaker 1: down the line. And I know people that are working
18:13
Speaker 1: on ways to get super, the equity from super, into
18:20
Speaker 1: the whole market. And I think there will be a
18:23
Speaker 1: break on this soon. So I'm just wondering if Ray
18:28
Speaker 1: has any thoughts on this one?
18:31
Speaker 3: It's an interesting one. I actually think that would be
18:34
Speaker 3: really desirable. We've obviously got a huge issue with affordability
18:39
Speaker 3: of housing at the moment. I've read stats that about
18:43
Speaker 3: two-thirds of people are relying on their inheritance to get
18:46
Speaker 3: into the property market. I think, though, our regulators.
18:52
Speaker 3: Really focused on superannuation being, having the sole purpose of
18:58
Speaker 3: providing us income in retirement. So I think that means
19:03
Speaker 3: that there'd need to be quite a bit of regulation
19:06
Speaker 3: around any such scheme, probably with dictated interest rates.
19:13
Speaker 2: But it seems like a sensible option.
19:15
Speaker 3: We've all got equity in our super and significant equity
19:18
Speaker 3: in a lot of cases. And That would seem to
19:21
Speaker 3: be one of the tools that we could use to
19:24
Speaker 3: beat this housing affordability crisis.
19:27
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you for that, Jake. We'll come back to
19:29
Speaker 1: that subject again, because I'm right across it and I'm
19:32
Speaker 1: following it all the time. And remember, folks, this is
19:35
Speaker 1: never advice, it's information. Now, there's two questions from Dave
19:39
Speaker 1: and one from Chris. They are related. And basically, they're both,
19:43
Speaker 1: I'll read Dave's, if she captures the issue. Surely there's
19:46
Speaker 1: a tipping point, he says, when a self-managed super fund
19:49
Speaker 1: becomes a no-brainer. When my industry super is charging a
19:53
Speaker 1: fixed percentage of 0.75% on my super balance, it seems
19:57
Speaker 1: to me an SMSF using an index fund or ETF
20:02
Speaker 1: would obviously be better. I know there's some set up costs,
20:04
Speaker 1: but it seems there will be some change, some change
20:07
Speaker 1: left over. Or am I missing something? Dave's Okay, Dave,
20:11
Speaker 1: here's the thing. Your super, I expect, or in many
20:15
Speaker 1: cases anyway, many people in big funds with super, you
20:20
Speaker 1: can take an ETF option inside the super fund. So
20:24
Speaker 1: you don't necessarily have to leave the fund. You could
20:27
Speaker 1: switch inside the fund to ETF, to a retirement product
20:31
Speaker 1: or a retirement option, which is heavily underpinned by ETFs.
20:35
Speaker 1: And On that basis, the race, or at least what's
20:38
Speaker 1: with the commission being charged or the charge basically should
20:41
Speaker 1: come down considerably from where it is at the moment
20:44
Speaker 1: at NOFA and 75. That would be the first thing
20:47
Speaker 1: that comes to my mind. Never advice here, just information.
20:51
Speaker 1: On the broader question of ETFs and index funds, so
20:54
Speaker 1: many people are so confident about passive investing and you
20:59
Speaker 1: can't beat the fund managers, blah, blah, blah. I wonder,
21:02
Speaker 1: do you think that way, Ray Tubman, having sold two
21:05
Speaker 1: businesses and working on a third one and being a
21:08
Speaker 1: sophisticated investor of some breadth?
21:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think ETFs are a great thing and market-linked ETFs.
21:18
Speaker 1: How important are they to you, though?
21:19
Speaker 3: I don't... I still tend to go into funds rather
21:25
Speaker 3: than ETFs.
21:26
Speaker 2: Not entirely, but I do use ETFs. I have a
21:30
Speaker 2: view that it's not so much about the costs. It's
21:36
Speaker 2: about the returns.
21:38
Speaker 3: So I think every investment should be dictated on what
21:41
Speaker 3: you expect in returns because if you get significant returns,
21:46
Speaker 3: then the costs become negligible. I think on the topic of,
21:53
Speaker 3: I think if you're worried about charges, purely on charges,
21:58
Speaker 3: then there is a point, and people will argue what
22:02
Speaker 3: that point is, whether it's 300 grand or whatever, where,
22:07
Speaker 3: strictly speaking, you can run a self-managed super fund, get
22:10
Speaker 3: your audits done, get your accounting done, and have less
22:13
Speaker 3: charges above a certain point. And the beauty of self-managed
22:18
Speaker 3: super funds is that You don't have to do it yourself.
22:21
Speaker 3: You can still have an advisor that advises you, your investments.
22:25
Speaker 1: It sounds to me like you're a judicious risk taker.
22:31
Speaker 3: Oh, I've taken a few risks and I've found out
22:34
Speaker 3: on a few over the years, but.
22:35
Speaker 1: But don't tell, just talk us, just, yes, expand on that.
22:39
Speaker 1: And so you come to the end and some worked
22:41
Speaker 1: and some didn't work. And is, and I don't want
22:44
Speaker 1: to prejudge what you're going to say, but I imagine,
22:48
Speaker 1: what do you conclude from that?
22:49
Speaker 3: Um, So I think the total wins outweigh the losses.
22:54
Speaker 3: And I've had personal learnings every time I've lost because
22:57
Speaker 3: you sit there like a naughty puppy in the corner
23:00
Speaker 3: and think, what did I do wrong on that one?
23:02
Speaker 3: So it's always good to learn from your mistakes. And,
23:09
Speaker 3: you know, you take that as future knowledge, don't you?
23:13
Speaker 2: And that's why I guess I am.
23:16
Speaker 3: Quite diligent about what I review and any investment I take.
23:19
Speaker 1: And you look back on when they don't work out,
23:22
Speaker 1: you also review them. You don't just walk away.
23:26
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
23:27
Speaker 3: It's like a software development process. Every time you do
23:30
Speaker 3: a release, you have a retrospective over what you've done.
23:34
Speaker 3: And you take learnings from what you've done wrong. And
23:39
Speaker 3: I'll still make mistakes, but hopefully less than what I
23:42
Speaker 3: would have made 10 years ago.
23:44
Speaker 1: Very interesting. I witnessed Karen Nielsen, of course, who became
23:48
Speaker 1: a billionaire at one stage, off the back of the
23:51
Speaker 1: Platinum Funds Group. And there was an analyst. They were
23:56
Speaker 1: talking about picking stocks. And the analyst mentioned how certain
24:01
Speaker 1: stocks hadn't worked out and they had finished with them
24:03
Speaker 1: and basically gone off and done other things. And I
24:06
Speaker 1: remember him picking up this analyst on a point and
24:09
Speaker 1: saying that he was very disappointed that the analyst hadn't
24:12
Speaker 1: gone back and studied what had gone wrong. with the
24:16
Speaker 1: investment that had failed, that you would learn as much
24:18
Speaker 1: from what doesn't work out as what does. It's interesting
24:21
Speaker 1: and interesting that you more or less come in from
24:24
Speaker 1: the same angle. Terrific. Look, Ray, thank you very much
24:26
Speaker 1: for talking to us today. Very interesting. Ray Tubman of
24:30
Speaker 1: the Air Wealth Group. Nice to have you on the show.
24:33
Speaker 3: Thank you, James.
24:34
Speaker 2: Lovely to be here.
24:35
Speaker 1: And thank you, folks, for listening. Let's have some more emails,
24:39
Speaker 1: if we would. Plenty on property at the moment, so
24:41
Speaker 1: let's have some that are on the broader world of investing,
24:44
Speaker 1: the money puzzle. at theaustralian.com.au. Talk to you soon.