Latest / Rugby Direct / Rugby Direct Episode 236: Blowouts Before the Big Dance

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Rugby Direct Episode 236: Blowouts Before the Big Dance · Rugby Direct

0:09
Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at B.
0:12
Speaker 1: Follow this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
0:20
Speaker 1: Straight down the Middle.
0:22
Speaker 2: Try.
0:30
Speaker 1: Get inside the game from every end goal. It's Rugby
0:34
Speaker 1: Direct with Elliott Smith and Liam Napier powered by News
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Speaker 1: Talks EDB.
0:39
Speaker 2: Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Habit Health Physio book
0:42
Speaker 2: today and stay in the game. Elliott Smith with me,
0:46
Speaker 2: Liam Napier napes. We have our finalists in Super Rugby.
0:50
Speaker 2: Good to catch up as always we do.
0:52
Speaker 3: Indeed, Elliott's and I don't think there's any denying that
0:55
Speaker 3: they are the two best teams in Super Rugby. I
0:59
Speaker 3: think the two best teams largely are all year on form.
1:02
Speaker 3: So it should be a great final. And it's great
1:05
Speaker 3: to officially have you on the Cane train and about that.
1:08
Speaker 2: I'll be calling the final on Saturday. And we incredibly
1:10
Speaker 2: neutral fifty to fifty, So no Caine train, no Chiefs
1:14
Speaker 2: train for me. Look, we will discuss the Chiefs Crusaders
1:17
Speaker 2: game if we get time at the end of the pod,
1:20
Speaker 2: but first and foremost, the Hurricanes fifty seven over the
1:23
Speaker 2: Blues twenty one. For a time in this game, Liam,
1:27
Speaker 2: it felt like the Blues were hanging in there, but
1:29
Speaker 2: as soon as the floodgates opened, boy did they open,
1:34
Speaker 2: and the Hurricanes just took their opportunity and ran with it.
1:38
Speaker 2: This was not the best first forty from the Hurricanes,
1:41
Speaker 2: but boy, that second forty was something to behold. What
1:44
Speaker 2: did you make of it?
1:46
Speaker 4: It was an interesting match, wasn't it.
1:47
Speaker 3: I think the Blues were a lot more competitive, certainly
1:50
Speaker 3: than I expected, and probably most people. I thought the
1:54
Speaker 3: Hurricanes were decidedly nervy early on a lot of uncharacteristic
2:00
Speaker 3: erarors that we haven't really seen from them this year,
2:04
Speaker 3: and I do put that down to this being a
2:06
Speaker 3: massive match and maybe the weight of expectation or the occasion.
2:12
Speaker 3: You know, there was a wonky line out, a few
2:14
Speaker 3: drop balls. I think they looked a bit hesitance at
2:19
Speaker 3: times that the Blues defended really well, but like you say,
2:23
Speaker 3: eventually class prevailed and the Hurricanes attack clicked in to
2:27
Speaker 3: gear again. But it wasn't entirely convincing, and they certainly
2:32
Speaker 3: have a lot of things I want to improve heading
2:35
Speaker 3: into that final.
2:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, they will, but by and large, you know, it
2:38
Speaker 2: was a bit clunky at times. But I think Clark
2:41
Speaker 2: Ladler has also got to be pretty happy. Men, this
2:43
Speaker 2: is a semi final, it's Blues. Everyone was sort of
2:45
Speaker 2: saying last week, Look, wouldn't it be funny if the
2:49
Speaker 2: Blues went down and you know, shook up the Apple
2:51
Speaker 2: card and these playoffs and took a victory. So all
2:54
Speaker 2: the pressure, you know, it is with the Hurricanes and
2:57
Speaker 2: they haven't always responded well to that in the past.
3:00
Speaker 2: But after we blip in the opening thirty minutes, I
3:03
Speaker 2: think they've got to pretty happy with the way things rolled,
3:05
Speaker 2: and also knowing that a lot of their key players
3:07
Speaker 2: can probably a lot better than they did on Saturday.
3:11
Speaker 2: I think you look at someone like a Ruben Love
3:14
Speaker 2: prehaps wasn't as convincing in the opening forty as we
3:19
Speaker 2: know he can be stamping his authority on the game.
3:21
Speaker 2: Maybe a little bit of pressure the year. So look,
3:25
Speaker 2: there are definitely things they can improve on, but I
3:27
Speaker 2: think ultimately that's a win through to the final done,
3:30
Speaker 2: and they could bring some players off earlier than maybe
3:33
Speaker 2: they would have been able to or expecting to be
3:36
Speaker 2: able to bring them off. So from a game management perspective,
3:39
Speaker 2: I think the Hurricanes will be relatively happy.
3:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, they will love well, they start behind the April
3:46
Speaker 3: a little bit because they have one less day recovery
3:49
Speaker 3: time preparation than the Chiefs with the Friday Saturday finals,
3:53
Speaker 3: so they'll need to get that right.
3:54
Speaker 4: But yeah, I agree.
3:56
Speaker 3: I think I wasn't Reuben Love's best performance of the year,
3:59
Speaker 3: and so there's a lot that he'll take out of
4:03
Speaker 3: going into that match and as execution and that sort
4:05
Speaker 3: of thing. But you're right as well that the Hurricanes,
4:09
Speaker 3: you know, they felt that pressure early. They were in
4:12
Speaker 3: a real contest, in a semi final and in front
4:16
Speaker 3: of the biggest crowd of the season, all those sorts
4:17
Speaker 3: of things with the final on the line, and they
4:20
Speaker 3: responded eventually, so that's a big tick for them. They
4:24
Speaker 3: still had some big individual performances stuff for Armor really
4:29
Speaker 3: just damaging ball carrying around the field. To think he
4:32
Speaker 3: has returns to the best form we've seen from him
4:37
Speaker 3: since he probably burst onto the scene to see Carrifi
4:40
Speaker 3: a couple of massive turnovers, Josh Morby standing.
4:44
Speaker 4: Up again on the edge.
4:45
Speaker 3: So while there were there is a need for vast
4:49
Speaker 3: improvements across the board, I think the Hurricanes standing up
4:53
Speaker 3: and another guy, Xavier Numa, is having a massive season,
4:57
Speaker 3: isn't he. I think he's well in the frame for
4:59
Speaker 3: Dave Rennie's All Blacks, particularly with Mighty Williams being out
5:06
Speaker 3: of the picture currently.
5:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so too. Look, I think you we're
5:09
Speaker 2: probably sounding a little bit harsh on the Hurricanes, but
5:12
Speaker 2: they've set the standards pretty high and they still put
5:13
Speaker 2: fifty seven on the Blues in the end, so I
5:16
Speaker 2: think they've got to be relatively happy with that. Do
5:19
Speaker 2: you think it was good preparation though for the final?
5:24
Speaker 3: Well you could probably say the same about the Chiefs yep,
5:27
Speaker 3: although that match was probably more competitive for longer in
5:31
Speaker 3: the second half. But yeah, I think any sort of
5:35
Speaker 3: semi final stage, it's not just the match itself, it's
5:38
Speaker 3: the whole week going through that, living with the extra edge,
5:42
Speaker 3: the expectation, the extra messages that come from family and friends,
5:47
Speaker 3: and the pressure that you put on yourself. So they've
5:50
Speaker 3: got to think that they were tested as well early
5:53
Speaker 3: on and they did have to respond. So yeah, I
5:55
Speaker 3: think it was good preparation for the final, and it
5:59
Speaker 3: is a real continuation of what we've seen from the
6:01
Speaker 3: Hurricanes this year. I've scored the most tries in a
6:05
Speaker 3: single season in history, I think they've put ACKed up
6:08
Speaker 3: fifty points something like seven times this year. That's another record.
6:13
Speaker 3: Fenn Young and awfs yet to break that record. It
6:15
Speaker 3: didn't get one on the weekends, but it is a
6:18
Speaker 3: Hurricanes attack that set them apartner year as well as
6:21
Speaker 3: their defense, and there you know their big improvement from
6:25
Speaker 3: their forward pack. But that attack has proved incredibly difficult
6:30
Speaker 3: to contain and it's probably only really the Chiefs in
6:34
Speaker 3: Hamilton earlier this year that managed to squeeze them enough
6:39
Speaker 3: and put enough pressure on them to contain their attack.
6:42
Speaker 3: So a very interesting sort of landscape casting ahead to
6:45
Speaker 3: the final.
6:46
Speaker 2: Indeed, we'll talk a bit more about the Blues in
6:48
Speaker 2: the final four in terms of a season, But what
6:52
Speaker 2: did you make of I guess their performance on the
6:54
Speaker 2: weekend wasn't helped by a couple of those early hia's
6:58
Speaker 2: Aj Lamb Caleb Clark going off. It's becoming recurring Bizarro
7:03
Speaker 2: sort of feeling in rugby now where players sort of
7:06
Speaker 2: look back forward as they go off with the old
7:08
Speaker 2: mouthguards pinging and then subsequently failed their hias during the game.
7:13
Speaker 2: So that's becoming a recurring theme. Both Aj Lamb and
7:16
Speaker 2: Caleb Clark confused as to why they were going off
7:18
Speaker 2: and then I ultimately failed, Hias. But what did you
7:23
Speaker 2: make of the Blues performance in that game? Did they
7:25
Speaker 2: hold on as basically as long as they could have?
7:28
Speaker 2: And as that's the point they've sort of got to
7:30
Speaker 2: with their performances recently, Yeah.
7:33
Speaker 4: I think it's a good way to put it.
7:34
Speaker 3: Look, I didn't have great expectations for the Blues four
7:37
Speaker 3: straight losses five now to end the year. They were
7:42
Speaker 3: clearly at least one, maybe two rungs below the Crusader's
7:49
Speaker 3: Chiefs and Hurricanes because they lost all those derby matches
7:53
Speaker 3: and they had some glaring issues with their set piece.
7:56
Speaker 4: So I was really surprised how competitive they were early.
7:59
Speaker 3: And then, as you say, they lost a couple of
8:02
Speaker 3: key guys. Aj Lamb's been among their best this year,
8:05
Speaker 3: so that was a setback for them.
8:08
Speaker 4: And then they folded pretty meekly, didn't they.
8:10
Speaker 3: When the Hurricanes got their tails up. There wasn't a
8:15
Speaker 3: lot of resistance from the Blues, and that's again a
8:18
Speaker 3: continuation of what we've seen from them. I know they
8:21
Speaker 3: put a lot of work into their defense. They considered
8:24
Speaker 3: an average of forty seven points in their last four
8:27
Speaker 3: games leading into that semi final. Well, that proved true
8:30
Speaker 3: again and they blew that out of the water by
8:32
Speaker 3: the finish of that match. I thought, I do have
8:36
Speaker 3: quite high hopes for the future of the Blues.
8:38
Speaker 4: Guys like Torrian Barnes.
8:40
Speaker 3: I thought he really came to the foe and even
8:42
Speaker 3: Peyton Spencer off the bench some nice touches from him.
8:46
Speaker 3: So if he can grow those guys, and obviously a
8:49
Speaker 3: new coaching regime coming in, there is some talent there,
8:53
Speaker 3: but on the whole, very underwhelming from the Blues given
8:57
Speaker 3: the caliber and the strength of that roster.
9:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, I expected better from the Blues this season and ultimately, yep,
9:05
Speaker 2: the record books will say they were knocked out in
9:07
Speaker 2: the semi finals, but I think we know that they
9:11
Speaker 2: really weren't a top fourteen this year. They flotted to
9:14
Speaker 2: deceive on a number of occasions. They had a couple
9:16
Speaker 2: of good wins in the bank this year, but then
9:19
Speaker 2: just completely fell apart. And we'll wrap up this season
9:22
Speaker 2: a little bit in the final four, but just ultimately
9:25
Speaker 2: a very very flat end to their campaign. Let's move
9:28
Speaker 2: on to the other semi final and the Chiefs beating
9:32
Speaker 2: the Crusaders forty nine to twelve. This was a pummeling,
9:36
Speaker 2: a first half absolute onslaught from the Chiefs. They gobbled
9:41
Speaker 2: up every Crusader's mistake, and there were plenty of them,
9:44
Speaker 2: and basically turned every one of those, especially in the
9:46
Speaker 2: first half, into a scoring opportunity from the outset. You know,
9:52
Speaker 2: it felt like it was pretty ominous when they got
9:54
Speaker 2: out to even a seven nil lead. It felt like
9:56
Speaker 2: the Chiefs were highly up for this and they just
9:58
Speaker 2: didn't allow the Crusaders a foothold into the game until
10:02
Speaker 2: it was far, far, far, far far too late.
10:06
Speaker 4: This was bizarre.
10:06
Speaker 3: It wasn't it ending that things everyone expected given the history,
10:11
Speaker 3: given the quality of the two teams, are tights contests
10:14
Speaker 3: that might go through to the eightieth minutes. It did
10:18
Speaker 3: really seem like a coin flip type game. The context
10:23
Speaker 3: around this the Crusaders coming in having won five straight
10:26
Speaker 3: finals matches against the Chiefs three straight regular season wins,
10:30
Speaker 3: so it really did.
10:31
Speaker 4: Appear like they had their number.
10:32
Speaker 3: The Crusaders coming in, I think they had won four
10:34
Speaker 3: in a row, so built some real confidence and momentum
10:37
Speaker 3: going to Hamilton, shouldn't fear them, And then wow, what
10:43
Speaker 3: are a thirty minute forty minute performance from the Chiefs,
10:46
Speaker 3: just the combination of their ball carrying, their speed of
10:51
Speaker 3: their ruck, their attacking execution, turnovers at the breakdown, set
10:55
Speaker 3: piece dominance, and look, they really did expose the Crusaders defense.
11:01
Speaker 3: There was some terrible reads, some terrible individual efforts, But
11:06
Speaker 3: I think it is really difficult to contain a team
11:10
Speaker 3: like the Chiefs when they're on the front foot, when
11:11
Speaker 3: they've got that sort of platform, when they're seeing eyes
11:14
Speaker 3: up for the when you've got guys like Quinta Pire
11:17
Speaker 3: running rampant and that four pack just steam rolling forward.
11:20
Speaker 3: So look, the game was done by halftime and everything
11:24
Speaker 3: beyond that was sort of circumstantial. But even then, when
11:26
Speaker 3: the Crusaders had opportunities, they couldn't finish. So a pretty
11:31
Speaker 3: stark defeat for the Crusaders in.
11:34
Speaker 4: The end of the Rod Penny era.
11:36
Speaker 3: I really really was surprised by, not necessarily the fact
11:39
Speaker 3: that the Chiefs won. I did tip them, but I
11:41
Speaker 3: wasn't overly confident, but the nature of that performance and
11:44
Speaker 3: that the one sided nature of it was very surprising.
11:48
Speaker 2: It was, And yeah, the Crusaders will be highly disappointed
11:51
Speaker 2: because they were never at the races in it, and
11:54
Speaker 2: you know, basically they made their own bed. The Chiefs
11:58
Speaker 2: are exceptional, but the Crusaders didn't help the scenario because
12:01
Speaker 2: they were utterly awful with their ball handling at times,
12:04
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, defensive reads look like at one point
12:08
Speaker 2: it just I felt like they basically never played together
12:10
Speaker 2: a lot of these players, which is utterly bizarre given
12:12
Speaker 2: the Crusaders have had a few injuries this year and
12:14
Speaker 2: slotted and players regularly throughout and move pieces around the
12:18
Speaker 2: back line. But you wonder whether perhaps some of those
12:21
Speaker 2: recent wins that the home stadium bounce might have papered
12:24
Speaker 2: over some of the cracks in this team. Potentially, but
12:27
Speaker 2: they're utterly exposed by a very very good Chiefs performance
12:31
Speaker 2: and those things you mentioned there, the speed to break
12:34
Speaker 2: down the carries. It was really really hard for any
12:39
Speaker 2: team I think to stop them. And that was as
12:41
Speaker 2: good as first forty as I can remember a team playing,
12:44
Speaker 2: I think to the Brumbies against the Crusaders in the
12:48
Speaker 2: two thousand and four final where they got out to
12:50
Speaker 2: I think a thirty three nil lead. Very very early
12:53
Speaker 2: Crusader has been the Warratars and twenty two and two
12:57
Speaker 2: they got up to sixty three mil a half time.
13:00
Speaker 2: Those are two that spring to mind. I'm sure there
13:01
Speaker 2: are plenty of others. But it was a pretty electric
13:04
Speaker 2: first forty minutes for the Chiefs. And we've talked a
13:08
Speaker 2: bit on this podcast this year about maybe the Chiefs
13:10
Speaker 2: just sort of flying under the radar a little bit
13:13
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, there being plenty of wins, but maybe
13:15
Speaker 2: just haven't caught the attention in the media in the landscape.
13:19
Speaker 2: But that was a performance that makes you set up
13:21
Speaker 2: and take notice and lines up a pretty good final
13:24
Speaker 2: this weekend.
13:26
Speaker 4: It sure does.
13:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're right, the Chiefs, you have flown under
13:30
Speaker 3: the radar a little bit.
13:31
Speaker 4: They haven't set the world of lights.
13:33
Speaker 3: And the Hurricanes have captured hearts and minds, haven't they
13:37
Speaker 3: with the way that they've played, storming to the top
13:39
Speaker 3: of the table and doing it in such captivating fashion.
13:43
Speaker 4: But look, the Chiefs have got such great depth as well.
13:48
Speaker 3: And even with a few injury concerns around guys like
13:50
Speaker 3: Luke Jacobson and Isaac Hutchinson and Quinte Pier, they'll be
13:55
Speaker 3: desperate to keep those guys on the part, particularly Quinta pie.
13:59
Speaker 3: I think that was another statement performance. Early on, he
14:02
Speaker 3: just steamrolled over the top of David Heavili. He threw
14:06
Speaker 3: the long wall for time, wifle out the first of
14:09
Speaker 3: his brace, but then across the board just Somersony Takyajo
14:15
Speaker 3: to provide. The Chiefs just have incredible power athletes, and
14:20
Speaker 3: they're starting to use them really well. And when they're
14:23
Speaker 3: on the front foot and you give Damien McKenzie that
14:25
Speaker 3: time and space, gee, it's hard to stop. So I
14:28
Speaker 3: agree that's one of the best attacking performances we've seen,
14:33
Speaker 3: certainly this year and beyond. The Hurricanes have put together
14:37
Speaker 3: patches of that fluidity. But to do it against the
14:43
Speaker 3: Crusaders in a semi final, given the history and everything
14:46
Speaker 3: around it, the Chiefs will take a lot out of that,
14:49
Speaker 3: as they had to Wellington this weekend.
14:50
Speaker 2: It's funny. I was looking at the stats and then
14:52
Speaker 2: this is a point I've made previously, but the stats
14:54
Speaker 2: don't always tell the full story, especially at full time,
14:57
Speaker 2: because the sort of evened up a little bit by then.
15:00
Speaker 2: If you look through them, Crusaders made more meters, they
15:02
Speaker 2: had more carries, they beat more defenders, they conceded fewer penalties,
15:07
Speaker 2: they missed few tackles, than the Chiefs. None of that
15:10
Speaker 2: tells the story of the kind of performance that the
15:12
Speaker 2: Chiefs laid out on the weekend. And you pick up
15:17
Speaker 2: a stats book or whatever, you read that and you go, okay,
15:19
Speaker 2: well this must be a close game. Then you look
15:20
Speaker 2: at the top and it's forty nine to twelve. You
15:23
Speaker 2: know that that shows just what the Chiefs were capable
15:26
Speaker 2: of when they're on form. Now they'll have to bring
15:29
Speaker 2: it to Wellington, which is an entirely different conversation. Wellington
15:33
Speaker 2: you would hope would be sold out for that final.
15:35
Speaker 2: You'd expect so, and you know that's a whole different
15:39
Speaker 2: kettle of fish. But you know, the Highlanders did it
15:41
Speaker 2: well eleven years ago now, So just just you know,
15:47
Speaker 2: just sort of laying it out there that you know,
15:48
Speaker 2: it's not impossible to win Wellington in a Super Rugby final.
15:52
Speaker 3: No, no, it's not, Elliott. Thanks for conjuring those memories.
15:56
Speaker 3: I'm sure Hurricans fans will thank you for it. I
15:58
Speaker 3: like to think it's a different Hurricanes team. But look,
16:01
Speaker 3: you're right, And but the big question for the Chiefs
16:04
Speaker 3: is you know, they've I guess painted themselves to agree
16:08
Speaker 3: as chokers in a final there's probably no getting away
16:11
Speaker 3: from it. They've lost the last three finals, four of
16:15
Speaker 3: the last five. This is their fourth final in a
16:18
Speaker 3: row and getting to that big stage as a mark
16:22
Speaker 3: of their consistency, but not getting over that final hump
16:26
Speaker 3: has been a massive must be a massive mental burden
16:30
Speaker 3: for a team that they've lost all those finals to
16:33
Speaker 3: the Crusaders, to be fair, but guys like Damian McKenzie
16:38
Speaker 3: that was one hundred and fiftieth Super Rugby match of
16:41
Speaker 3: the weekend and he's never won a Super title. So
16:44
Speaker 3: how much does that scenario weigh on the chief Shoulders
16:46
Speaker 3: leading into this Well.
16:47
Speaker 2: I think it has to weigh on them because this
16:50
Speaker 2: is a record that is going to be brought up
16:52
Speaker 2: throughout the week that they haven't been able to clinch
16:55
Speaker 2: it in the finals. And I'm sure the Hurricane, yeah,
16:57
Speaker 2: this is a different Chiefs team. They're coached by Johnny Gibbs,
17:00
Speaker 2: last three with Clayton McMillan, but the Hurricanes is going
17:04
Speaker 2: to be I'm sure looking at last year's final just
17:06
Speaker 2: to see what the Crusaders did well, what the Blues
17:09
Speaker 2: did well in twenty four just to put you know,
17:12
Speaker 2: the likes of McKenzie under pressure? What were they able
17:14
Speaker 2: to do in that game. I'm sure that Clark Laidlaw
17:18
Speaker 2: or someone on his staff as analysts will be looking
17:20
Speaker 2: at those things, going what happens when you put players
17:23
Speaker 2: like that under pressure and big matches, you know, playing
17:27
Speaker 2: away from home again. They obviously played at home in
17:29
Speaker 2: twenty three and that didn't help them, But that's another
17:32
Speaker 2: thing they have to deal with. But I think if
17:34
Speaker 2: you're the Hurricanes, you lean into that and maybe put
17:37
Speaker 2: the pressure on them, because you know, the Hurricanes do
17:40
Speaker 2: go in his favorites. But there is that chokers tag
17:43
Speaker 2: that follows the Chiefs around and jeez, if they lose
17:48
Speaker 2: four finals, then what happens? Then?
17:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, But it is a similar scenario for both teams.
17:54
Speaker 4: It was an Oliott.
17:55
Speaker 3: The Hurricanes haven't won a title in ten years. The
17:57
Speaker 3: Chiefs haven't won a title in twelve years, So both
18:00
Speaker 3: of those both are going to be desperate. And when
18:03
Speaker 3: you have such a dearth of success, it does builds pressure, anticipation,
18:09
Speaker 3: tension to finally break through and deliver that for yourselves,
18:14
Speaker 3: for your supporters, for your family and everyone surrounding the team.
18:19
Speaker 3: So I think there is the weight of expectation on
18:23
Speaker 3: both teams. The Hurricanes have targeted the stage for the
18:26
Speaker 3: best part of three four years. They've kept that squad
18:30
Speaker 3: together with Clark laid Law bringing through a lot of
18:33
Speaker 3: those guys, keeping them together, building that team. For me,
18:39
Speaker 3: when I look at those two teams, I think the Hurricanes, sorry,
18:45
Speaker 3: probably have the stronger coaching stuff. You've got Jason Hollin,
18:49
Speaker 3: who's going to go up to the Blues and bear
18:50
Speaker 3: head coach next year, and I think he's a real
18:53
Speaker 3: secret weapon in that team in terms of the creativeness
18:57
Speaker 3: we've seen on attack. And also Brent Evans, I think
19:00
Speaker 3: he's highly underrated. Some of the specials that he comes
19:04
Speaker 3: up with around the lineouts. We saw that carry through
19:06
Speaker 3: to the All Blacks last year. So I think if
19:09
Speaker 3: the Hurricanes can find a couple of little moments of magic,
19:12
Speaker 3: that might be enough. I really do rate that coaching
19:16
Speaker 3: team with Jamie McIntosh and Corey Jane and amongst that
19:21
Speaker 3: crew as well.
19:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've obviously been caught up to the All Blacks
19:24
Speaker 2: fifteen as well a couple of those members in recent
19:26
Speaker 2: times as well. So the our coaches are firmly on
19:29
Speaker 2: the rise in our game. We'll obviously preview that final
19:32
Speaker 2: a little bit more on our Thursday edition, but we'll
19:35
Speaker 2: take a quick break here on Rugby Direct. Comeback with
19:38
Speaker 2: some Final four thoughts after this. You're back with Rugby
19:41
Speaker 2: Direct time now for the final four to four rugby topics.
19:45
Speaker 2: There's a bit of similarity but a symmetry between these
19:47
Speaker 2: four topics. Quick one, First up, legam rank the Blues
19:51
Speaker 2: season out of ten for.
19:53
Speaker 3: Me, well, it's a bloody difficult Elliott, given my history
19:57
Speaker 3: have been a tough market. And look, they finished fourth,
20:01
Speaker 3: but that's probably a reflection of Super Rugby as a whole,
20:05
Speaker 3: an eleven team competition. Finishing fourth, making the semi finals,
20:10
Speaker 3: when you lose four straight games, look, I'll probably have
20:15
Speaker 3: to give him a pass. I would say five at best.
20:19
Speaker 3: Just they really did tank and free fall and ship
20:23
Speaker 3: the bed at the back end of the year. And
20:25
Speaker 3: then that's the lasting impression they left. And the impression
20:28
Speaker 3: I get is something actually went wrong within that team.
20:31
Speaker 3: I don't know that for a fact, but I don't
20:33
Speaker 3: think any team spirals like they did. That's completely on
20:38
Speaker 3: the same page when everything's going right, when everything's clicking.
20:42
Speaker 3: I don't know whether the departures of so many players
20:44
Speaker 3: and coaches had a big impact. But I just feel
20:48
Speaker 3: like something is not right and something went wrong towards
20:51
Speaker 3: the back end of the year for the Blues.
20:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, it felt like it felt completely apart and they
20:56
Speaker 2: missed Olden Papaali. I mean, his career in New Zealand
21:00
Speaker 2: rugby is finished for the time being. I don't think
21:03
Speaker 2: he's playing NPC from memory, I'm pretty sure he's going
21:05
Speaker 2: over to France now. So he was hoping to be
21:10
Speaker 2: back maybe for a final if they made it that
21:12
Speaker 2: far from that drawer fracture. Ultimately not to be. But
21:16
Speaker 2: I'm similar to you. I give them a five out
21:19
Speaker 2: of ten for that season, just the way CA read
21:22
Speaker 2: out of control and you know that brings to an
21:25
Speaker 2: end as well. You know the coaching tenure of Vern Cotter.
21:29
Speaker 2: So topic two in the Final four is what will
21:32
Speaker 2: Vern Cootter's legacy at the Blues b Liam.
21:36
Speaker 3: I think it's eched in stone two points. When any
21:40
Speaker 3: any coach that comes in and in his first year
21:43
Speaker 3: delivers a title the Blues first and twenty one years,
21:47
Speaker 3: you can't take that away from him.
21:48
Speaker 4: The impact he made there will be everlasting.
21:53
Speaker 3: When people talk about Vern Cootter's coaching tenure in the Blues.
21:56
Speaker 3: Ten years from now, they'll say, well, he was a
21:58
Speaker 3: title winning coach and he broke that droughts, But it
22:02
Speaker 3: did feel like one of those short term impacts you
22:07
Speaker 3: come and have a real impact, I think, particularly on
22:10
Speaker 3: the mental side of the game.
22:12
Speaker 4: He toughened the Blues up.
22:13
Speaker 3: He brought in that very direct, confrontational, conservative to a degree,
22:18
Speaker 3: French top fourteen style, certainly when he was coaching up
22:22
Speaker 3: their European elements super rugby that they hadn't seen. But
22:26
Speaker 3: from then on I think things didn't evolve enough, both
22:31
Speaker 3: from an individual skill and a game plan perspective. I
22:36
Speaker 3: think we needed to see more from the Blues on
22:38
Speaker 3: attack in particular, and then to finish your tenure of
22:41
Speaker 3: five straight losses and pretty lucky in the grand scheme
22:47
Speaker 3: of things to make the semi finals, so very disappointing finish.
22:51
Speaker 3: But I think when people reflect in time, they'll still
22:54
Speaker 3: call them a title winning coach, won't.
22:56
Speaker 2: They They will, absolutely, and then that's in the record books.
22:59
Speaker 2: But I tend to agree that they didn't evolve into
23:03
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five and twenty twenty six nearly well enough.
23:06
Speaker 2: The game plan was strong in twenty ti twenty four.
23:08
Speaker 2: It caught a lot of teams by surprise. It was
23:10
Speaker 2: simple things for dominant carried you know, strongly, done well
23:15
Speaker 2: and ultimately it began to become predictable, especially this year.
23:21
Speaker 2: But it began become predictable in twenty twenty five. They
23:25
Speaker 2: didn't have the players they were executing it as well
23:28
Speaker 2: as as well enough as they did in the first year.
23:32
Speaker 2: So I think there has to be some question marks there.
23:34
Speaker 2: Just the lack of evolution in their game plan became
23:37
Speaker 2: as I said, very predictable.
23:39
Speaker 3: So this is a.
23:40
Speaker 2: Chance for it for Jason Holland and you know Timadi
23:43
Speaker 2: Allison's coming in next year and maybe whoever else to
23:46
Speaker 2: reshape things a little bit with the Blues. They're going
23:50
Speaker 2: to have a different roster next year. They'll get Rico
23:52
Speaker 2: Yuani back, but they will lose Papaali, they lose to
23:56
Speaker 2: to to try nothing else. Off the top of my head,
23:59
Speaker 2: that's going aj lamb. Yeah, So this is gonna be
24:03
Speaker 2: a markedly different Blues roster next year. And doesn't sound
24:08
Speaker 2: like there's too many big whispers around players that might come.
24:11
Speaker 2: I mean, the question mark is around you know, something
24:13
Speaker 2: like an Ardie Savia, potentially Liam that's gone a bit
24:16
Speaker 2: quiet over the whole thing with more uner Pacific or
24:18
Speaker 2: being rescued by Winston Peters or whatever the hell was
24:21
Speaker 2: going on there. So I guess wait and see Blues
24:25
Speaker 2: possibly a goer for him next year and that instantly
24:28
Speaker 2: elevates the Blues into the title mix. But other than that,
24:33
Speaker 2: doesn't sound like too many big inns coming back for
24:35
Speaker 2: them next year, coming new to the franchise next year.
24:39
Speaker 3: No, not necessarily, but they do. I think that this
24:42
Speaker 3: is the time that the Blues do need to evolve
24:44
Speaker 3: and promote new talent. And when you look at guys
24:46
Speaker 3: like Torian Barnes, Malokai, Rampling, even eli Odin Ryan, he
24:51
Speaker 3: was a real late season star. I think has impact
24:55
Speaker 3: off the bench shows he's got a big feature, And
24:59
Speaker 3: I think this needs to be a change in what
25:01
Speaker 3: we've seen from the approach and the Blues. You need
25:03
Speaker 3: to be unlocking guys like Caleb Clark and getting them
25:07
Speaker 3: more ball and just having a bit more of a crack.
25:10
Speaker 4: I think I will suit their style of athlete.
25:13
Speaker 3: Maybe the Blues pick up Cam Miller with Stephen Peter
25:18
Speaker 3: Fetter going Boden Barrett's still going to be there, need
25:21
Speaker 3: to try and get the best out of him and
25:23
Speaker 3: what will probably be his final season of Super rugby
25:26
Speaker 3: in New Zealand, you suspect before he probably cashes out
25:30
Speaker 3: post the World Cup. So I think it's the Blues
25:33
Speaker 3: need to reset and they're definitely going to get one
25:35
Speaker 3: with von Kotta, Craig McGrath their defense coach, and Greg
25:39
Speaker 3: Feek as well moving on, plus the host of players
25:41
Speaker 3: that you spoke of there, so it will be very
25:44
Speaker 3: much a new lock side next year.
25:45
Speaker 2: Indeed, well similar questions to question one, but right the
25:48
Speaker 2: Crusader season out of ten Familiam.
25:51
Speaker 3: It's more difficult, Elliott. I think they finished nine and seven.
25:55
Speaker 3: I think I'm right saying they only beat one Australian
25:58
Speaker 3: team which probably really costs them in terms of where
26:01
Speaker 3: they finished and sent them to Hamilton ultimately for a
26:05
Speaker 3: quarter final. So it was a bit of a check
26:08
Speaker 3: hide season, I think. And look, they weren't helped by injuries.
26:11
Speaker 3: They didn't have Scott Barrett at all, didn't have a
26:13
Speaker 3: lot of use of Will Jordan, so there were a
26:16
Speaker 3: number of challenges and setbacks along the way, but they
26:21
Speaker 3: look the quality of their roster, they would have still
26:24
Speaker 3: expected to probably reach the final, if not defend the title.
26:28
Speaker 3: I'm going to give them a seven. I think on
26:30
Speaker 3: the whole they did really well to summon some late
26:34
Speaker 3: season form and what was an incredibly tough run home
26:38
Speaker 3: against his own opposition, win four in a row to
26:40
Speaker 3: reach the semi finals. But that tour of Australia in
26:44
Speaker 3: the middle of the year, dropping back to back games too,
26:46
Speaker 3: I think it was the Reds and the Force, and
26:50
Speaker 3: like you pointed out earlier, I think perhaps some of
26:52
Speaker 3: those wins under the roof with the sell out crowds
26:56
Speaker 3: papered over a few cracks and I think they'll benefit
26:59
Speaker 3: from a change of regime as well.
27:01
Speaker 2: Jeez, seven out of ten for me as well. Liam,
27:04
Speaker 2: I've channeled you are tough marking, but seven I think
27:07
Speaker 2: seems fair. You know, they win at least one of
27:10
Speaker 2: those games or two against those Australian oppositions. Opposition rather,
27:15
Speaker 2: they're closer to maybe a top two finish. You know,
27:19
Speaker 2: the Chiefs are ten points a heat ultimately on the
27:21
Speaker 2: end of season ladder, but they win a couple of
27:23
Speaker 2: those Who knows, maybe you get a bit of a
27:26
Speaker 2: push towards finishing, you know, with with with top two
27:29
Speaker 2: in mind, that makes a big difference playing at home
27:32
Speaker 2: the extra week potentially, but you're going to mark them
27:35
Speaker 2: down four losses like that. They obviously lost to the
27:38
Speaker 2: Highlanders Week one, which was you know, when you look
27:43
Speaker 2: at where the Highlanders finished this season a bit of
27:44
Speaker 2: a slump. They had that lost to the Brumbies where
27:48
Speaker 2: they shipped fifty at the Old Stadium as well, which
27:51
Speaker 2: was an ugly defeat. So there was a lot of ugliness.
27:54
Speaker 2: But ultimately they almost you know, obviously they lost convincingly
27:58
Speaker 2: and deservedly on Friday, but they almost rallied to get
28:00
Speaker 2: to the point where they were, you know, fifty to
28:02
Speaker 2: fifty contenders to make a final in that game against
28:06
Speaker 2: the Chiefs. Ultimately didn't pan out like that, but yeah,
28:08
Speaker 2: I give him a seven out of ten as well.
28:10
Speaker 2: And that leads into topic four. What will Rob Penny's
28:13
Speaker 2: legacy at the Crusaders be?
28:16
Speaker 4: Wow, what a wild right, Elliott. One of the worst
28:20
Speaker 4: seasons in history for the Crusaders.
28:22
Speaker 3: You know, anytime they missed the playoffs, it's like the
28:27
Speaker 3: wolves are caving in because it's tradition, isn't it the
28:31
Speaker 3: Crusaders are there come the business end of the year.
28:34
Speaker 3: So his first season was right off and he almost
28:38
Speaker 3: lost his job, or certainly that was the expectation from
28:41
Speaker 3: the outside.
28:41
Speaker 4: The Crusaders stuck.
28:42
Speaker 3: With him, they bounced back to win a title, and
28:46
Speaker 3: then this season was probably had a bit of everything.
28:49
Speaker 4: It was symptomatic. I think of his tenure on the whole.
28:52
Speaker 3: Look, I think my assessment of Rob is that the
28:55
Speaker 3: game's probably moved on a little bit.
28:57
Speaker 4: From his.
29:01
Speaker 3: Areas of expertise in terms of when he was maybe
29:04
Speaker 3: at as pomp as a coach. I think they probably
29:07
Speaker 3: need some freshopery and a change of regime. But again,
29:12
Speaker 3: when people sit back in ten years, they'll call him
29:15
Speaker 3: a title winning coach, and he had to show a
29:18
Speaker 3: lot of backbone and resilience to probably fight for his
29:21
Speaker 3: job internally and then respond the following year. But to
29:25
Speaker 3: finish with the heaviest loss in history to the Chiefs
29:28
Speaker 3: and getting a really smacked on the nose in the
29:30
Speaker 3: semi final.
29:33
Speaker 4: That's the last impression, isn't it.
29:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, and it's funnily I think the style
29:37
Speaker 2: of rugby the Crusader's played was probably stepped backwards from
29:39
Speaker 2: the Scott Robertson era they played under Rob Penny. I
29:42
Speaker 2: think you're right that maybe the game plan and the
29:45
Speaker 2: style of rugby plays has maybe passed him by. And yeah,
29:51
Speaker 2: I just think they didn't probably evolve this year and
29:54
Speaker 2: injuries could tell that a little bit. But similar to
29:56
Speaker 2: the Blues, their prips didn't just evolve as much this
29:59
Speaker 2: year as they needed to to make themselves into real contenders.
30:02
Speaker 2: And the Crusaders team had a habit of dropping games
30:07
Speaker 2: that they wouldn't have dropped in the previous Scott Robertson era,
30:11
Speaker 2: and that crept into things over the last couple of years.
30:14
Speaker 2: You know, I'll special off the back of that twenty
30:16
Speaker 2: twenty four season, which was utterly poor, but then you know,
30:20
Speaker 2: you sit back and go. They summoned everything last year
30:23
Speaker 2: to win that final at home against a very very
30:26
Speaker 2: good Chief side. So there was something that Rob Aenny
30:29
Speaker 2: and delivered a title. But I think probably a change
30:32
Speaker 2: is good for this Crusaders team, and Scott Hansen's going
30:35
Speaker 2: to inherit a team with a few changes as well.
30:39
Speaker 2: Sevy Reese, the all time leading tri scorer in Super rugby,
30:42
Speaker 2: to partying, there's obviously midfield changes with in or leaving
30:47
Speaker 2: as well. Dallas McLeod have been backbones of the Crusaders
30:51
Speaker 2: for a number of years now. Ethan Blackadder hasn't resigned
30:54
Speaker 2: for twenty twenty seven to my knowledge as yet. There's
30:58
Speaker 2: probably a couple of others that I'm missing as well.
31:01
Speaker 2: So there will be some changes. There always is, but
31:03
Speaker 2: when you're a new coach there's going to be some
31:05
Speaker 2: big decisions to make. Having said that, there are some
31:08
Speaker 2: promising players in the pipeline for the Crusaders. I think
31:11
Speaker 2: Cooper Roberts in the midfield is a really promising. Olie
31:14
Speaker 2: Mathers in the loose forwards, you know, has been talked
31:18
Speaker 2: about a little bit. We haven't seen a lot of
31:20
Speaker 2: him at super rugby level as yet. There are some
31:24
Speaker 2: other players through the under twenties potentially looking at the Crusaders.
31:27
Speaker 2: So there's some promising signs there. But you know, Scott
31:30
Speaker 2: Hansen's going to have to evolve the game when he
31:32
Speaker 2: gets under the desk in a couple of months time.
31:35
Speaker 3: He is, indeed, and then you look at guys like
31:37
Speaker 3: Cody Taylor, Scott Barrett's there's probably a couple of others
31:41
Speaker 3: in the mix there. What are their futures posts next
31:44
Speaker 3: year post the World Cup? Do they finish up?
31:45
Speaker 4: Do they move on? So there will be a need
31:48
Speaker 4: to evolve that team.
31:49
Speaker 3: One thing I've been thinking on Elliot with the Crusaders
31:52
Speaker 3: is when Scott Robertson moved on, it felt like certainly
31:56
Speaker 3: all the noises, certainly behind the scenes, were that Tommody
32:00
Speaker 3: Allison has been groomed as his likely successor. Now the
32:04
Speaker 3: way things panned out with somebody moving to the All
32:07
Speaker 3: Blacks and then be moved on from Neil Blacks ultimately
32:10
Speaker 3: with Dave Rennie coming in and now coaching the Moldy
32:15
Speaker 3: all Blacks and it's goin to join Jason Holland at
32:18
Speaker 3: the Blues. But my question to you is what changed
32:22
Speaker 3: do you think and ultimately do you think somebody Allison
32:25
Speaker 3: would be a better prospect to lead the Crusaders and
32:27
Speaker 3: Scott Hansen or do you think they've got that decision right.
32:31
Speaker 2: I think ultimately they've probably landed on it right. I
32:36
Speaker 2: think Tamasi is a great coach in waiting, and everyone
32:39
Speaker 2: you hear from and speak to him says that. But
32:42
Speaker 2: I think it's also a sign that he's going to
32:43
Speaker 2: be an assistant at the Blues rather than the head coach.
32:46
Speaker 2: There was no mention of him being the head coach
32:48
Speaker 2: at the Blues. That was always Jason Holland being in
32:50
Speaker 2: the mix, and there are other obviously names tapped up
32:52
Speaker 2: as well. Mentioned in the early stages of that recruitment
32:55
Speaker 2: process he's going to coach the Maldi All Blacks and
32:57
Speaker 2: I think ultimately that's probably where he can get his
33:01
Speaker 2: hands dirty and coach. He coached a team with some
33:04
Speaker 2: pretty big games against essentially a Japanese test team to
33:07
Speaker 2: come and then a few weeks, but I think there's
33:09
Speaker 2: still a bit of water to go under the bridge.
33:11
Speaker 2: I don't know that really he was ready to be
33:14
Speaker 2: a head coach. Maybe if it had a couple of
33:17
Speaker 2: years under Rob Penny in a Super Rugby week in,
33:21
Speaker 2: wee can week out environment, then maybe he's a little
33:23
Speaker 2: bit readier now. But he was in a test environment
33:26
Speaker 2: with a very specific role. So I think that's why
33:31
Speaker 2: I think he still remains an assistant for now.
33:33
Speaker 4: What say you, yeah, I think I probably agree on
33:37
Speaker 4: the whole.
33:37
Speaker 3: I don't know if he was ready for a Super
33:42
Speaker 3: Rugby head coaching role, and probably elevated too quickly in
33:46
Speaker 3: terms of the All Blacks and the defensive brief he
33:49
Speaker 3: had there. But I think he will be a very
33:52
Speaker 3: good head coach in time, and I think he probably
33:56
Speaker 3: has a high ceiling, I think than Scott Hansen. But
33:59
Speaker 3: I think Scott Hansen in that Crusades environment, knows it well,
34:03
Speaker 3: knows the player as well, and we'll probably have a
34:05
Speaker 3: clear vision of where he wants to go with it.
34:07
Speaker 3: So I think I think he'll get an instant lift
34:11
Speaker 3: out of that team from where they were under Rod
34:13
Speaker 3: Penny as well.
34:14
Speaker 2: Indeed's right, that's them done for twenty twenty six. We
34:17
Speaker 2: have two teams standing. We have some MVP voting to do, though,
34:21
Speaker 2: Liam for all maintaining his leads out on sixteen can
34:25
Speaker 2: real regard though closing the gap to thirteen, Lester defying
34:28
Speaker 2: a Nuku Lucas, Casey Warner Durns and Christian Lego Willie
34:32
Speaker 2: all on nine and third equal. Who gets your three
34:35
Speaker 2: two ones this week?
34:37
Speaker 4: I'm going to go Armer for three. Elliott.
34:39
Speaker 3: I think he's having an outstanding season and just with
34:42
Speaker 3: ball in hands, he could be a real weapon for
34:45
Speaker 3: the All Blacks.
34:45
Speaker 4: So I'm going two to QUINTI, Pier didn't play the whole.
34:48
Speaker 3: Game, but he was a massive part of that rampant
34:51
Speaker 3: front foot platform that the Chiefs started early. And I'm
34:55
Speaker 3: going to go one to Damien McKenzie. I thought he
34:57
Speaker 3: thrived in the time in space. Paul the Strings hasn't
35:01
Speaker 3: always performed on that stage, but stepped up for the Chiefs.
35:05
Speaker 4: A few others.
35:06
Speaker 3: I thought cam Roy gave was really good again the
35:08
Speaker 3: Hurricanes and it's probably the biggest weapon that could be
35:12
Speaker 3: on the park and the SUPERBI Final as well.
35:14
Speaker 2: I've got Peter Lucky for three. I thought he was
35:17
Speaker 2: excellent on on Saturday Night. I thought he really stood
35:22
Speaker 2: up delivered what the Hurricanes needed out of him. So
35:26
Speaker 2: he gets my three suffer Amoa gets my sue. Similar
35:31
Speaker 2: to comments to you, I'm really intrigued to see how
35:34
Speaker 2: the All Blacks use him this year, whether he is
35:38
Speaker 2: in the mix for that top spot. I don't know,
35:40
Speaker 2: as you mentionings what Dave Rennie does with Tokeyoho Moa
35:43
Speaker 2: and Cody Taylor and how he balances what he needs
35:47
Speaker 2: out of those three players, what he wants out of
35:48
Speaker 2: those three players. That's a fascinating discussion. But ol Mower
35:51
Speaker 2: seems to be getting right back into his work, which
35:54
Speaker 2: is really really good, and Isaac Hudgerson gets my one.
35:57
Speaker 2: This kid continues to really impress me the way that
36:00
Speaker 2: he's playing, And honestly, maybe that's South African too. Might
36:05
Speaker 2: be a way where he can come into the All
36:07
Speaker 2: Blacks and Vine, because I think he is growing weak
36:09
Speaker 2: to week and I'm continuing to be impressed by him.
36:14
Speaker 2: So he gets my one this week.
36:15
Speaker 3: Names how did how did you manage to let him
36:19
Speaker 3: slip through grass come into the school?
36:21
Speaker 4: I know school? He's obedient, Yes, said, that's headed north.
36:28
Speaker 2: Well Antonina Brown, Brodie Rettelic. Has been a history of
36:30
Speaker 2: them going to the chiefs that have slipped out from
36:33
Speaker 2: from underneath the eyes of the Crusader's academy. Yeah, look
36:38
Speaker 2: at it looks like a big loss. Those things are
36:41
Speaker 2: sort of a moment in time, aren't they.
36:43
Speaker 3: You know?
36:43
Speaker 2: The crusaders maybe go, We've got plenty of outside backs.
36:45
Speaker 2: We can't offer him a contract at this point in time,
36:47
Speaker 2: where we can only offer you widing training group, whatever
36:50
Speaker 2: it might be. And then he comes up to the
36:53
Speaker 2: Chiefs and it is an absolute rocket for them and
36:55
Speaker 2: is playing some great rugby, so sometimes you back the
36:57
Speaker 2: wrong horse, we don't back them at all, and that
37:00
Speaker 2: might be the case with the Crusaders. Yeah there, but
37:03
Speaker 2: I'm very impressed with what he's doing. And finally Liam,
37:07
Speaker 2: on Tuesday, we're going to go through our all Black
37:10
Speaker 2: squad of thirty four for what we think or what
37:13
Speaker 2: we suggest Dave Rennie should name on Monday, which will
37:17
Speaker 2: be post of course that Super Rugby Final, so we'll
37:20
Speaker 2: go through those thirty four. We've already had a crack
37:22
Speaker 2: at it in the latest edition of the Rugby News
37:24
Speaker 2: magazine along with Tony Johnson and Campbell Burns, the editor
37:28
Speaker 2: of Rugby News, so there's a bit of a preview there.
37:30
Speaker 2: But we'll get our sleep this cap on as well
37:33
Speaker 2: on Apps in the coming days and see where we land.
37:35
Speaker 3: Well indeed, and I guess a few big injury outs
37:38
Speaker 3: and still some question marks over guys like Wallace to
37:41
Speaker 3: Tit and others, so yeah, it could be some fresh
37:45
Speaker 3: blood coming into Dave Renie's first team of the year.
37:47
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And if you've got a thought ahead of that
37:50
Speaker 2: all Black squad naming for free to get in touch
37:52
Speaker 2: to the Rugby Direct mail bag. You can get in
37:54
Speaker 2: touch at Rugby Direct, at Newstalk ZB dot code in ZI.
37:57
Speaker 2: We might go through a couple of those on Thursday,
38:00
Speaker 2: but that'll do us for another week. Another episode. Rather
38:02
Speaker 2: than Rugby Direct, you can tell the four aim starts
38:05
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