Latest / Biblical Business Podcast / S1E1 - What Separates a Business From a Biblical Business
Transcript
- speaker-0: So what I wanna know, where I wanna start, is what is the difference between a business and a biblical business? speaker-1: A biblical business is a business where the owner has a deep understanding and perspective that it is not their business. And a business is something that a person owns and grows for themselves. A biblical business is something that is the Lord's, and a business is something that is man's. speaker-0: Can a Christian run a biblical business? Can a non Christian can a non Christian run a biblical business? speaker-1: A non-Christian can run a business on biblical principles. You know, they don't have to believe the wisdom of the Bible to apply it. But the secret snake oil for me, my sales funnel, is to drive people to the Bible. So I think what people will find is that let's say you're not a you're a non-believer and you apply the wisdom of the Bible into your business, it'll work. But the whole point. Is to get you to the Bible. So, meaning, you know, it's kind of like being a good moral person. Like the question becomes can you do good and reasonable things and run a great fundamental business without believing the Bible? Absolutely. Can you apply the wisdom of the Bible into a business even if you don't believe it? Absolutely. But that's not the point. And that's why. It goes back to your first question, which is the biblical business is one that somebody understands it's God's and they are stewards of that business for his glory. And a business is owned by a person who really sees it as for their own glory, whatever that is, more money, long term wealth, you know, their family legacy, all those good things. speaker-0: So then in your opinion, is it what what are the similarities and what are the differences between the two? I think the biggest one that you said is is basically is it your business or is it God's business? But I'm sure that there's also a lot of other similarities and there's also a lot of other differences between the two. speaker-1: Yeah, I I would draw a similarity between what I would call a good business and a biblical business. And what I would call a bad business would be a bad business. It's like bad business is universal, but biblical business can only be associated with good business. speaker-0: Hm. And so my guess is that there wasn't a point necessarily to where you were always running a biblical business. Is that is that fair? speaker-1: Absolutely. I I think even if I was applying the wisdom of the Bible in the way that I led or the way that I operated a business, the back to the first question, it was really for my own glory and not for his. The perspective wasn't that I was driving this business for God's glory ultimately. It was I'm driving this business to achieve some things. And to do things excellently. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just if you don't know where you're going any road'll get you there. So you've got to set the right GPS to the destination. speaker-0: Yeah. So for you, like what what was the turning point where it shifted to be being your achievements versus God's business? speaker-1: You know, it was a sequence of events. I wouldn't say it was a single moment. You know, after climbing money and success mountain in the corporate world and then that changing in an instant and realizing that I was extremely dispensable in the corporate world, I made a You know, Jen and I, we made a pivot to go, hey, we want to live our life differently. And so that's when I got into the automotive suspension world. And I thought, hey man, I'm just gonna like do this thing that's a little bit more chill so that I can spend more time with my family and I can invest in my faith and sort of discover what God has for us ⁓ in this next season. And it was during that period of time that I ended up joining ⁓ C12, which is just a Christian organization for ⁓ Christian business leaders. I had been in a another group called Vistage, which was essentially like the same idea but for non-Christians. So you go and you meet with other business owners and leaders and you process issues and people come in and speak and you talk about high-level stuff and you process problems. But I was going to that and I felt it felt empty. You know, I was like, I don't need to talk to more people about how to make more money and 10x my business. I'm good. Like I've I I I've done that, I've been around a lot of that. I want more. And I I want to talk, I want my faith to inform this more. And I think it was very interesting because at the time, actually, when sort of I got out of the corporate world, we also were having all this distress in the church world. So we went from like leading a community group for a decade and attending church, being like super involved to not doing any of that. And so that actually God was like tilling the ground, it seems, to then make it like, well, I need my spiritual wisdom and insight. And I'd love to get that in business. And so that's when C twelve, somebody told me about C-12. And I tried to find one. I was in California. I tried to find one there and they didn't really have one nearby. And then as we when we decided to move to ⁓ to Idaho. ⁓ I ended up finding a group up there. And once I joined C twelve, they started teaching about this concept of business as a ministry. And ⁓ it was weird. It felt like a light bulb clicked. And I went, How dumb have I been? I've treated my business and my faith as these two separate things. Yeah. But wait, they've never been separate. Business is a ministry. Ooh, yeah. Wait a minute, you're saying that I can do this stuff that I that I really love to do, solve problems and run great businesses, but that's that can be worship. Whoa. Like I can't believe I ever thought that these were separate. And ⁓ that was like the moment I would say C twelve is really what changed my my life for business as a ministry. And once that clicked, it was like I've gotta lead a business for Jesus from the front door. It was like I had no choice at that point. speaker-0: Dude, I I think it's so funny too that this is not a more commonplace thing. It took your content to introduce this concept to me to ask, hey, what if we were to take business and Christianity and faith and merge these two together? And it blew my mind at the time, and it shouldn't have, because it should have just been so common sense. But for whatever reason, we have the separation. So Why why do you think that we've created this separation culturally? speaker-1: Well, that's interesting you say that. You like talk a little bit about your background because you come from a Christian background, educate like talk a little bit about that and how like for you because I grew up an atheist. I wasn't ready for church. So it feels reasonable that maybe like I didn't ⁓ you know, have ⁓ that told to me early on. Yeah. But from your seat, was that shared with you early on? speaker-0: Dude, no, not at all. I mean, I because it was going to like, you know, Christian university, you know, it's growing up it's like, you know, you're an FCA, you know, you're in like going to youth group, you're going to church some Fellowship of Christian athletes, your roller hockey day should have told you this. So So ⁓ for me it was like I went to college, you know, l learned all the things and I remember when I graduated, I got a job. ⁓ I started in movies First job was ⁓ working in TV shows as a production coordinator in New Orleans. And I remember in one of the first weeks, ⁓ the director of photography came over to me and we're we're just chit-chatting, you know, getting to know each other. And he gives me some advice and he said, There's two things that you can't talk about on set. And if you do these two things, you're gonna be great. And he said, You can't talk about politics and you can't talk about religion. And so, like at, you know, twenty-two, I was like, Okay, taking notes, you know. Like my faith is my own and you know, maybe that's not something I talk about ⁓ you know, on set or at work and okay, got it. You know, this this dude who's been doing this for forty, fifty years is giving me this advice and I'm I'm keeping it in mind. And that's not changing what I believe, but it's also like I'm trying to learn, I'm trying to grow, I just don't know. And there's never been an education opportunity for me to necessarily understand, wait, how can I bring my faith into work? And I think Corporate America has done an excellent job of creating a division between these two things for whatever reason. But when we go from a biblical standpoint and look at what the Bible talks about, the Bible talks a ton about commerce, that it talks a ton about business. And we lose this sense of it in, you know, the the 1900s, somewhere along the way, to where there's a divorce between these two things, that the two are not welcomed together. And I I'm I'm really trying to wrestle with the idea of why that is. speaker-1: Hmm. I think when you look at God creating the world and he creates a perfect Eden and He says, You know, I have a great idea. I'm gonna you're gonna work. Like when he thought of Eden, he thought of work. You're gonna plant and and tend and work this garden. The only thing that changed post fall is thorns and thistles, is what it's gonna produce, and by the sweat of your brow. So it's gonna be hard. And as you're t you're Tending to that garden, mostly thorns and thistles, fruit every now and then. And so I think the why part gets back to part of the fall of man. ⁓ I think that it comes back to not believing God is who he says he is, and that he didn't say what he said he said. Right? Like, meaning Satan says, Did God really say? So sows this seed of doubt. Okay. How does that doubt play into how we live today? Well, a few ways. One, we believe that our businesses are going to provide us ultimate security and provision. That our jobs are going to provide us ultimate security and provision. So we don't believe God. Satan sowed that seed of doubt. Like, this is what your security is in. And then two, I think the world then has in a lot of ways told us that. If we do that, we're gonna make less money. So I mean, at its base, we've essentially made God and success together. So success is our God, money is our God. So then if we're serving and bowing to that God, well then when Joe attorney says, Hey man, You can't talk about this. ⁓ or hey, if you talk about this, you're gonna turn a bunch of people away and you're not gonna get as much business, or you won't move up in the world. You've got to keep that at home. I think we believe that lie. and I also think that because of that, we sell ourselves short of what is actually possible in business that you can bring. It's not even bring. We've been told, here's how you can bring your faith to work. The truth is, they're they've never been separate. You have to actually force faith out of work. When you come to work, you're a whole human. You are at work as a believer and a follower of Jesus. The question becomes, what's on the outputs? And what do you share? And, you know, again, the biblical call, right? Romans 1 16, for I am not ashamed of the gospel. Right? So, like, are you ashamed? Okay, if you're not ashamed, are you doubting that God is the provider? Do you believe that if you mention this, you're gonna lose some promotion or some client? I think those things. ultimately come back to us making an idol out of success and money. I think that's the main reason. I I know that's for me. That's why I did it, right? It's like I'm in the corporate world. I'm like, well, I'm not gonna talk too much about my faith because you know I'm trying to get this managing director role and then I've got to get up this place. And they've got things that they need to be be a part of and people underneath, I've got five hundred employees, they all believe different things. If I say this, I'm gonna create ⁓ HR is gonna come tell me that I can't talk about it. ⁓ and it's so it's fear. It's ⁓ fear and doubt. ⁓ and I think those are the I don't know. I think those are the big ugly hairy things that stop us from getting where we need to go. speaker-0: And so for you, when you know, C twelve kind of comes into the picture, when you start asking the question of wait, yeah, why aren't I incorporating Jesus into my business decisions? Why am I having these two things separate? Wha what does it look like for me to combine them? What were some of the observations that you noticed or changes that that happened either in your heart or in the business when you started To ⁓ to merge those two things together. speaker-1: It changed everything because I was president of, you know, an automotive parts company, and the owner wasn't aligned that way. It was like more spiritual than like I believe in Jesus and let's sort of shout that from the rooftops. And because I had this con conviction at that point of like I need to lead a business for Jesus from the front door, it was very clear to me that That was the direction that God was moving me. And yet I had no idea what he was gonna do. So I was just praying. Like, God, you've laid this on my heart. Open the doors, make the ways for what you want. And he did it in a way that I could have never imagined. And that's how I got where I am. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. A at the automotive suspension company, how long what was the what was the time difference between you start, you start merging the two things together and you ultimately leave that and and head over to Sherman. speaker-1: I mean I joined C twelve in October of twenty twenty-two. And by May or June of twenty twenty three, I announce that I'm gonna be leaving and selling my ownership and leaving ⁓ Super Springs to join Sherman. And I joined Sherman in in ⁓ August ⁓ of twenty-three, so you know, just under a year. Yeah. speaker-0: And so were the do you In the six months that you were six ish roughly months that you were still there, how did you start to experience changes that were happening as you were thinking about bringing these two things in together while also being conscientious that the owner might have differing opinions to what the Lord maybe was working with? And not to say that y yeah, keep going. Yeah. speaker-1: I mean, it wasn't like there was this big opposition, but it was more like There was so much more going on. So at the time, we were talking about the just valuation of the company, potential long-term strategics. We were talking to firms about valuation and all that good stuff. Yeah. And my C twelve group challenged me at the time. They're like, well, why don't you just buy the business? Because then you can lead it how you want. As I approached the owner about that concept, He really just kind of got cold feet. And I think a lot of like he had spent, you know, his life building this business up. And so a lot of his identity was tied to it. And so then it was clear to me, like, okay, well, that's not the option, Lord. But now you've got my brain going on this train. So we're gonna move. So we did small things within the company, but there was nothing very overt. One of the last things that I brought in was this ⁓ I brought marketplace chaplains into the suspension company. ⁓ which is a firm that kind of brings people in and they are support for all of your employees and they'll pray for people and they'll go like when people lose ⁓ people there's death, when there's loss. and I remember it was really weird because the day that the owner ⁓ at the time of Sherman was coming to me telling me like that they wanted me to go be a part of this thing. The owner at the suspension company, while we were announcing the marketplace chaplains, had gotten somebody who was kind of like, well, this seems very like not inclusive. And ⁓ they they came out and told the whole company, I wasn't there, so there's like a remote meeting, and they told the whole company, like, well, we just want everybody to know, like, this isn't, we're not saying this is the only way. ⁓ that we're we're open to everything. And it was like, it wasn't that I understood what he was trying to do, but it was very much like the opposite of what was happening on the other end. And it was really clear that God was moving in that. I'm like, ⁓ wow. Over here, it's like we're gonna give fifty one percent of our net income to advance the gospel through this business. And and it can be Jesus from the front door. I'm like, ⁓ yeah. And over here it's like barely squeaking out the marketplace chaplain thing, which, you know, if you you know me well enough at this point, like if I'm gonna go, I'm going. And so I don't know how to do half measure and so that was like this really interesting kind of moment that I re speaker-0: So when you you I don't know if you got necessarily a blank slate at Sherman to, you know, build it to where you wanted it to be. It sounds like the conversation before you hopped into it was fifty one percent of the prophets were going to be going to some sort of missions in some capacity. Yeah. And so what were some of the things that you immediately were like, ⁓ this needs to be true? Like if if if we're gonna be leading Jesus first, then then how does this change how we're going to run this company? speaker-1: Yeah, interestingly enough, the fifty-one percent was the only real main thing that I knew. when when Dan approached me and said, Hey, I I've I bought this research firm. Would you consider, you know, running it? I said, Absolutely not. I'm never going back to the finance world. I have no interest. I was in banking, I was in finance, I don't want to do that again. Then he told me about the fifty-one percent. That's what made me go, Okay, Lord, is that you? Like, is this you talking? And maybe I can apply all of the skill and experience I have in this space back into the finance world and redeem it. Because to be really frank, the the growth of that suspension business was tremendous, but it felt easy to me. I felt like I was almost like not giving it my all. Even though like from the outside you'd go, wow, it was it was great. I I felt like I didn't I wasn't being I wasn't giving everything that I had. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ speaker-1: and so yeah, when I joined, it was like two things. One, it was like if you want me to come do this, the only thing I the only requirement I have is that you stay out of my way. If you want somebody to come in here and run it the way that you want, then find somebody else because I I'm gonna have very strong opinions. ⁓ and that wasn't like trying to be any way, it was just, man, if I'm gonna make this move, like I wanna do this for Jesus all the way. And ⁓ they were fully supportive of that. The board was fully supportive of that. And so when I came in, it was an immediate teardown rebrand from scratch. ⁓ new brand, the whole logo had the gospel. We implemented giving away free Bibles on the website. Our core values became the fruits of the spirit from Galatians five. Our our purpose beyond profit became right on the front door, ⁓ you know, financial strategies to propel lives for Christ. So it was just like ⁓ praying before meetings, like. It was just like I'm gonna go full court press and ⁓ we're gonna do this right from jump. And ⁓ slap was the approach. speaker-0: Dude, I think one of the things that really rocked my world was, you know, last year I was taking my company through like a rebrand. And it like it had been McKinney Media for, you know, twelve years at that point. And I was like, I I hate it. Like I hate it. It needs to be something new. We ended up going with Challant, opposite of nonchalant, right? And it's like love that great direction. And I'm spending all this time figuring out what are their values and what are the things that are really important to us. And Dude, I I don't know. I I literally had Galatians 5 open and it was like picking words around the fruits of the spirit, like right, and like cherry picking it. Cause I was like, I yeah, well, you can't just it's not as easy as just picking the fruits of the spirit and then going with it. And then when you told me that's what you did, I was like, it's so obvious, but it's not like right what because it's no one does that. No one does that at the same time. And and the thing that really gets me is this idea of like It's hard to be my experience, what I've seen is it's hard to be like an effective Christian business owner. And what I say when I say that is my experience has been there might be a Christian who's running a business, and either it's not an effective business, you know, but they love super well. You like it's everything's for Jesus and like and which is awesome, and they are so kind and so nice, but like, you know, the business is just fine. It's not gonna do much, it's not gonna make a splash anywhere. Or you have this other business to where ⁓ you would never know that the owner was Christian by the way they conducted themselves, by the way that X, Y, and Z. And so What I'm curious of is where does that ⁓ marriage happen? How can you be an effective Christian business owner, an effective Christian company? speaker-1: I don't think that you can be a truly biblical business unless you are effective. I think that You know, I I I produced hip hop for like ten years. And I remember when I first became a Christian and I started listening to like Christian music, like, dude, this is this is doo-doo. This is bad. And you start to understand, as a especially as a non-believer, you come in and you go, ⁓ essentially, once you add the name Christian in front of anything, it means that it's subpar. Christian, Christian movies, Christian TV. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Christian music, Christian business. Yeah. It's all like, ⁓ I see. It's kind of gonna be a little like Ned Flanders behind the times. Yeah. You know, it's it's not and I think that's a massive disservice to the creator of the universe. ⁓ the first thing we learn about God is that He's creative. In the beginning, God created, and we are image bearers. So one, us being creative is like a It's an image-bearing aspect of our walk with God. But two. To run a truly biblical business, that means you will run a disciplined and diligent financial business. You'll have great operations. It won't be overly reliant upon you because you understand you're a steward. You will have wonderful marketing because you'll know that you want to let your light shine before others that they may see your good works and give your Father in heaven glory. Right? Like you will have a purpose that's bigger than just making money because God says you can't serve God and man and To truly lead a biblical business means that you're leading a very effective and high-quality business. That is what it means. And if you are the business that's like, hey, it's just Jesus from the front door, but all these mechanics of underlying the business are actually really bad, and we have no processes in place and we don't, you know, actually manage our finances. I don't know what my AR and AP is. I just look at cash balances and I don't, you know, collect on terms. Well That's not you, ⁓ well, we're focused on reaching people for the gospel, so we're not focused on that. No, you are a steward, which means you have a fiduciary responsibility, right? You are taking care of something that is God's, which means every aspect of it should be done unto him. When you're doing that, that means you're running a great business. And then on the flip side, running a great business and having all those mechanics down, but Than never talking about or using the business or integrating your faith into that business. I would just ask why. Ask yourself why and be really intellectually honest with yourself. Right? Like, preach the I think a lot of people hide behind the statement, preach the gospel and when necessary, use words. Because they don't want to use the words. Because the words might come with quote consequences. But if in fact you stake your life on this book, man, I should definitely you might want to like talk about it a little bit in your business. Because it's not your business anyway. If this is Jesus' business, do you think people know that he's about the gospel? Or is it like, no, no, no, no, no. ⁓ this is my b you know, this is Jesus is like, yeah, this is my business, but we don't really talk about that stuff. We just talk about this stuff over here. It's it's never it's never been separate. ⁓ we are the ones who actively create separation between the Bible and business. They've never been separate. speaker-0: So in your opinion, after working with coaching clients, having tons of you know, thousands of people DM you at this point, even more the thousands, you know, commenting on your post, which is harder to bring your faith into a business or to run an effective business? speaker-1: I'm not a lawyer, but it depends. speaker-0: What are some of the things it depends on? speaker-1: It really depends on the person. You know, we all struggle with every person is unique in a fingerprint and I would say there is a contingent of people who are really good at running business, who are like, how do I integrate my faith into this? But I would say, interestingly enough, the DMs, the in the engagement, it kind of follows a lot of what the world's currency is in that it's hard to run a great business. Running a great business is not easy. And so you have more people I would say that struggle with how to run a great business from a biblical worldview. Because there's no shortage of people to teach you how to run great businesses. And there's also no shortage of people to talk to you about Jesus. I mean there is. There's there's never could be enough. But how to take this and and not have it be something that you just read on Sunday or a book of, you know, moral compass direction, but actually have it be a blueprint and a field guide for your business is something that I don't think we talk about enough. And so I think that yeah, man, I mean I get all kinds of I get people who are like, man, I've been running this great business for a long time, but I've just lost my identity and I've I've done it all myself and I haven't talked about Jesus along the way and I feel like I haven't used it for his glory. I've just used it for my own. That's one struggle. then I have a bunch of people who are like, man, I love the Lord. I'm following him closely, but my business just won't go. And I don't know how to and it's like both of those are very unique. but everyone struggles in different ways in different seasons too. You know, so I think that's part of the encouragement I hope to come from this podcast and from just the content is that there's no perfect place to be. Life is a season. Sometimes it's winter, spring, summer, and fall. And, you know, if you're dressed for if you're asking everybody like how to get the summer bod, but you're about to enter a winter, you're not preparing well. And so there's it's like how do we prepare for each of these seasons together? and I think that's just having conversations along the way and working through it together, inch by inch. It's not like solve it once forever. That's kind of not how this works. Because you're gonna have different seasons in your life, in your personal life, with your marriage, with your kids, with your friends, with parents, aging parents. All of these things require different seasons. So ⁓ bearing one another's burdens and sharpening each other is a process. It's not a moment. speaker-0: What what kind of season do you think you're in right now? speaker-1: Huh. Is it possible to be in all seasons at once? speaker-0: I don't know, we'll look at the calendar for that. speaker-1: Hm It feels like ⁓ I'm in spring. Feels like I'm in spring. Lots of buds, lots of beauty. There's been like a winter. ⁓ a lot of preparation. And it feels like we're we're coming into this beauty. ⁓ one of my favorite seasons of of ⁓ just things starting to bloom and bud. And and they're they're little and tiny, but you see them and God's just you know, I I can't stare at a tree and make the flowers bloom, you know. Like that's the magic and the beauty of God doing handling the outcomes. And so in spring, it's like one of the coolest things because you get to see God giving the growth. ⁓ and you you can't attribute it to yourself. speaker-0: what are some of the things that you're feeling like are currently in bloom in your life? speaker-1: Man, there's so much. I wake up every day and I'm grateful. I've got an amazing wife. ⁓ like our kids are incredible. Family, friends, business. I mean, just this this whole opportunity to reach people ⁓ for Jesus in business is new. I mean, I started this, it's a year, a year ago, and ⁓ to see all of the little messages and all the things that have come along the way, man, it's just that's blo it's blooming. It's blooming big time. ⁓ so I'm I'm excited about it. I'm excited about the book. I'm excited about all kinds of stuff. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ It's a little over a year, a year and one month and one day, I think, since you started posting content consistently. And it wasn't like let me also just say it was not just posting consistently, it was posting aggressively. Like, you know, I I correct me if I'm wrong. It was it began as like, you know, one a days, you know, just like let's let's get going, let's get the habit. And then Bro, you hit a you hit a stride where consistently three to seven times a day. Yeah. Maxing out at speaker-1: Ten plus. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: Per day. What are some of the things that you learned in posting that consistently, that frequently for that long? speaker-1: I learned the amazing beautiful benefit of posting that much and talking that much about the Word of God really helps you hide his word in your heart. I have more passages and verses and portions of the Bible memorized now than ever in my whole life. And so, you know, what you practice, you perfect. And ⁓ there's certainly no perfection, but it's been it's been beautiful. And then, you know, you learn a lot about yourself. ⁓ I'm an introvert. I don't really like being on camera. ⁓ I don't enjoy talking a ton. But if you get me talking about something that I'm passionate about, yeah, I'll go. I but I like building. So I learned that. A lot of the experiences and things that have happened can be exponentially helpful to people just to hear so that they know they're not alone and to be encouraged. And ⁓ you know, I had one mom reach out to me a few months ago and just say, like, I was her son's mentor in high school, and she was sending all my videos to him. I was like, man, I've made a thousand videos at this point. If all of them were just for that, it'd be worth it. Hmm. So kind of like not being concerned with the outcomes, but relentlessly planting and watering. Yeah. speaker-0: What were some of the things that you feel like you learned about yourself in doing that? speaker-1: I learned that I have a lot to say. speaker-0: Even speaker-1: Even though I don't like talking. ⁓ I learned that I hate the sound of my own voice. Anytime, you know, Jen is like s sitting next to me and and she's like scrolling on something and I hear my voice, I'm like, please turn it off. I can't I can't listen. you know, I learned that I've just got so much to learn and so much to grow and get better in. speaker-0: Ha ha ha. speaker-1: So I I always knew that, but I think the more you dive into the word of God, the more you realize just how much there is to learn and apply into business and into life. speaker-0: That's super interesting. you say that You see all the ways that you can grow ⁓ all the different areas that you can grow and get better in. And so kind of looking forward, what are some of the areas to you that you're seeing that you can be growing in? speaker-1: Man, there's there's so many. I think that there's a lot of opportunity to speak into like rest and sabbath. I think probably one of the biggest challenges for me is having a desire for Sabbath. I know that sounds I I there's gotta be people, I know there's people who relate to that. Yeah like I don't wanna rest. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: You know, there's times, of course, that I want to be in nature and I want to like chill, whatever, all that, right? But you know, like even when I am, I'm sit I'm sitting in bed watching the gentleman on Netflix and I've got my phone next to me like this, and Jets like, what are you doing? I'm like, ⁓ I'm just building a a seven-page carousel for ⁓ biblical through Claude or whatever. She's like, Because I I want to do that. And so You have to what I'm learning is to ask why and learning to identify where my desires and God's word would call me out of something else. You know, it's kind of like God doesn't call you, God is not calling you into something that takes you away from the people that you love. And so don't so don't blame him for that and say that you're calling is why you should be so stressed out and why you don't go on dates and why you don't take care of your kids and why you and so just challenging myself on that I think is really it's been really good. ⁓ and learning, I think also about just the crazy incredible value of having a an amazing wife who's my best business advisor. And that leaning into into that relationship and not keeping business separate has actually been such a game changer. So speaker-0: Hmm, yeah, man. Dude, I I don't think it's one of those things to say it's like, yeah, you post every day for a year. It's a it's one of those things that you could say, post three to seven times a day, you know, ⁓ post as many times as ten times a day. Yeah. And I don't think people get it until they do it. And I remember speaker-1: That 'cause you you did your period. How was that? speaker-0: Exactly. Like it was like two weeks of bro, this sucks. And it's the kind of suck where it's like, you're in a workout. This is good for me, but man, I don't want to be doing this. And I can see and experience all the ways I'm growing and all the opportunities that I have to change and all the ways that I could potentially grow. And there's a point where it's like It's hard to come up with seven ideas a day for w I just did 14 days. And so the fact that you've developed systems to not only come up with ideas, but also film and also edit and also post and also comment. Like there's a point to where I don't think people I think people just assume that there's a team behind you who's making this happen. Right. And I because you're this you're a CEO and you're successful and you've been able to do this and you like if you wanted to do that, you could, and that's not a big deal. But dude, that is time consuming. And it is, it takes work and it takes effort, it takes energy. And it's hard. It it it is hard. And so Man, the question I I think I I got out the gate just from that is you could have just hired someone to do that, right? You could have probably figured out some sort of like an e ⁓ AI automation to just streamline this whole thing for you. And I also know you and I know that you're intentional. And so why did you decide to do all of that manually? speaker-1: A big part of why I decided was because I am a firm believer in understanding intimately the things that you ask other people to do. So if I'm going to be able to tell another CEO how to build an online platform, I have to be able to do it in first principles at the leanest. Because anything past that is just it means of course you can, it's just easier. And you know, I had lots of and still have No, a lot of opportunities along the way of people who wanna work with you, people who wanna do your edits, who wanna intern. They wanna do all for free. ⁓ And I'm not interested in the microwave version of learning. I am interested in getting the ingredients, going through the fundamentals, adding, tasting, adjusting. I want to learn. I don't want to simply get an outcome. And so because I have this strong desire, I have a strong curiosity. It I think it just pushes me into first principles and everything. You know, when I started to to do the unbreakable OS app, I built it myself. I got cursor, I got I started I wanted to do all of it to understand. I put almost a hundred hours in it until I went, you know what? Somebody can do this better. But now I'm gonna scrap all of this work. I don't care how much time I put into it. 'Cause the concept and everything I worked through in that taught me so much. I learned so much that now I can apply that, but with some jet fuel on it. And so I think the f this the stage where I'm at with like social is that that first year was like the building blocks of learning. And going into this next year, it's just new learning, but f about different things and in different ways. Like I've never done a podcast. I think there's gonna be so much to learn in doing this that it's a joy to get the reps in. It's like you could try to just lift your your PR and like blow out, you know, on your first lift. Or, you know, you could do pull-ups, half a pull-up pull every day for six months, and then just kind of and your your body and your mind learn so much over time in that process. It's it's like it reminds me of of ⁓ deep work by Cal Newport. It's just different neurons that fire. When you give yourself time to learn about something instead of trying to take the shortcut. speaker-0: Hmm. Hmm. You know, I I also think one of the most important pieces of the of you making content is the reason why. And I think I would love for you to just recap that story as well, because I think it it's not coming from a place of vanity, it's not coming from a place of pride, it's not coming from anywhere like that. speaker-1: Yes. Well let's start by saying I have pride, I have vanity, and I struggle with all of those things. so, you know, not not that that's a secret. ⁓ I think everybody would un would would would see that as difficult. I think you have that fleshly battle every day. but in particular with social media, I'd avoided it. So like random Facebook posts from 2010, sure. but like Me on social media, ooh, ooh, very cringy. Like no no chance. ⁓ you know, I own a light phone, I own the disconnected life dot com. I live in the woods, I am an introvert, I am not interested in like sharing what I had for breakfast or sharing every day what I'm thinking. But last year on August 6th, 2025, I I just woke up and ⁓ a lot of this other stuff had been bubbling. God had been just tilling the ground and you know, I was at Sherman, and then I had started ⁓ Kingdom Mindset Investing, my own company, and I had written the seven laws, and I had started all these things, and and I woke up that day and I felt this very clear conviction. It wasn't like an audible voice, but when I when I think about it, I hear this. Which is, ⁓ I get it, Adam. Your pride is more important than sharing what I've done for you. And for whatever reason, on that day, it just hit me, man, right, like really deep that hit me. And I realized that it was pride and vanity. So to your question, like it's not coming from that, but weirdly it was because God was convicting me. That like, what do you mean? You, you, you're unwilling to share these things. And it's it was the words were important because it was like to share what I've done for you. It's only vanity if I think I'm sharing something that I've done. I'm not sharing anything that I've done because God's done it all. Every good gift, every perfect gift is from Him. And so, in kind of obedience, I just went, okay, God, ⁓ I'll post on social media for the next year. speaker-0: Mm, yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ I don't care what the outcomes are. I'm just gonna go for the next year. I don't know what this looks like. I have no content plan, I have no content pillars, I have no strategy, I have no team. I'm just gonna open up my phone and start an account. And I had already had the concept of the dispensable CEO in my mind, and had been talking about it ⁓ with the laws. That was the idea of building these seven laws to become a dispensable CEO, meaning you were a steward. And so fired it up and made the first post and ⁓ that was it. And so just and and honestly, it wasn't like this big hockey stick of growth right up front. TikTok grew pretty fast, but still, even going into like November, I was at like seven, eight thousand followers on TikTok. And then I just kept going because I wasn't really looking at the results. I just kept going and going and going. And then, you know, TikTok shot up, but Instagram I kept posting on, nothing was moving on Instagram. Going into March of this year, I had 500 followers on Instagram. speaker-0: Mm. Well speaker-1: And you know, today what we're in September, from March to today, I'm at a hundred and five thousand followers on Instagram. The formula didn't change. It was just a decision, you know, and I think our flesh is a terrorist and we can't negotiate with terrorists. speaker-0: Hmm. I like that one. Well Well I'm I when I came 'cause our relationship first started from a coaching perspective. And that happened September, October, something like that. And so can you maybe share the evolution of it? Because day one we you were not thinking about coaching clients. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. speaker-0: Like it was just about posting. But it eventually they got to be a point where people were asking, Hey, are you available for coaching? Could could you do this? And what was your thought at that point? speaker-1: Same as when I got asked to come to Sherman. It was like, no, I don't do that. I had actually spoken at a conference, a C12 conference, that last year, or yeah, 2025 in April or Feb, I don't know, March or April. And I had, it was amazing. I mean, I it was like a packed room, 400 people in this breakout session. And then I had a line for like three hours afterward of people wanting to ask questions. And a bunch of them were like, Do you coach? And I'm like, I don't. I'm a CEO. I'm an operator. but what I was doing in that was like I was giving them guerrilla marketing tactics. Like, here's how you can do all these things without spending any money as a CEO or as a as a entrepreneur. And ⁓ yeah, weirdly, the evolution was one day, one guy cold DM'd me on LinkedIn. Corey, Corey Walton, and ⁓ he said, Hey. I was reading the book of James and you came into my mind. I saw you speak at the C twelve conference. ⁓ you know, I don't know how, but somehow, and that led to him going, like, well, I went, let's work together. You know what? I'm not ⁓ doing a coaching business, but do you want to? And he Yes, he became my first client. He's still my client today. and that was like the jump, the jump off. but a lot of these things speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: For me, it came back to like, this isn't what I was trying to build. I kept saying, like, I'm not trying to build a coaching business. But then people were coming and asking for coach. It was like God was doing what he was doing. I had my plans and what I wanted, but he wanted something different. And so then as I realized that through those relationships I could help people lead their business for Jesus, I was like, ⁓ this is this is a val valuable and worthy effort. ⁓ and and ⁓ a great place to spend time and I found it to be really rewarding personally. So it was like, Yeah, this is awesome. speaker-0: Hmm. ⁓ you know, on so I I'm just I'm clicking into one year at this point. Because I'm thinking about it that and it you had content going on while still actively being Sherman CEO. Yep. On top of that, unbreakable OS is being built. And so what what was your thought process in that in adding one more thing to the plate? One more big thing to the plate. speaker-1: Yeah. You know, I never really think about bandwidth if that makes sense in a lot of ways. I speaker-0: He doesn't. speaker-1: I I Ever since that pivot from C twelve, ever since thinking like, Well, now business is a ministry, it's like ring me out, God. Whatever you wherever you want me to go, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna give it everything. And you know, there's been little th things that don't work along the way. You try, they don't work, you try, they don't work. But I have a very high appetite for failure, and I also have a really fast feedback loop. So I like to experiment, try things, see if they work, make adjustments, try new things. And so I just in that sense, I don't have pride. I don't really care if if it fails. It makes no difference to me because I'm just going trying to be obedient to. what I feel like ⁓ you know, God has said in his word and what he's putting on my heart in that time to to just use it. You didn't add the book. I was also speaker-0: Getting there. I'm getting there. Yeah. I 'cause I'm looking at all this stuff and I'm like, in a year's time, you decide to post ⁓ every day, three to seven times a day, sometimes up to ten. On top of that, hey, why not offering a coaching service? On top of that, hey, why not just build a complete new app to you know change EOS because it's obsolete, that's a different conversation. Then hey, let's add on some speaking on top of it. Hey, now you're getting asked to do UGC kind of content. You know, and getting paid for like paid media and most of them you turn down and only when it's super interesting and I did one. speaker-1: I said, I said yes to one. speaker-0: You did one. And then you got some cool suitcases. speaker-1: I did. That's true. Great guy, Sterling Pacific. Yep. speaker-0: And so okay, digital products, sure, that makes sense. It becomes complimentary. And now you're also building the book, Did I Miss Anything? While while also being the active CEO and having a family and having a lot of speaker-1: Say like more more than that, like date nights with my wife and going to my kids' soccer games and going on vacation and you know I think it sounds like a lot, but I Yeah, I don't know. It it it just feels like if it's felt like a natural pace ⁓ to be running at for the time and season that ⁓ I'm in. And I think speaker-0: It is a lot. speaker-1: Yeah. I mean I also had a have a biblical business community that I teach with about a hundred entrepreneurs on that I teach once a month and have a community so yeah, there's that too. speaker-0: That's right, forgot about Substack. Yes, forgot about Substack. Now we're launching a podcast. That's good. So here's here's my point. It's like, dude, that's a ton of stuff. That's a ton of stuff for anybody. And like, can we just double click into like the idea of productivity for a second and efficiency? Like, this is a lot of stuff to get done. It's a lot of stuff to get done for speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, I also have a sub stack. Yeah. So yeah, see, there's just more. speaker-0: Anyone, even a high performer, who is still able to be patient and kind and not bulldoze people like what are some of the things that have helped you helped you be a high performer in that capacity? Monster Energy, Taco Bell, what speaker-1: I I really think. Obviously. Yep. Easily, easily. You gotta have beans flowing through your blood. ⁓ that's the that realizing and verbalizing that I am not in the outcome business was really important. because it frees you to run without being concerned about the outcomes. And then I would say like on the practical side. speaker-0: I think Mm. speaker-1: I think going through the corporate ladder climb that I did, the way I did it, honestly, it made it so like like when I went to the suspension company, I just felt like I was on a break, man. It was like easy. So I think the the the there's a there's an I don't know if it's an under underestimation because there's a lot of people who say, like, ⁓ man, entrepreneurs, they have to do all this and they do all that. But corporate people, they just get to honestly, if you make it in the corporate world at a high level. The level the level of requirement and demand on you is greater or equal to ⁓ being an entrepreneur. And so I think that was like a big trial by fire for me to where then it was like, ⁓ yeah, well like ⁓ you mean I only have to manage three people? ⁓ yeah, yeah. I mean like that that's really easy. so I think Just the experience of going through like a career of corporate grind. there's so much you can learn. So, like a lot of people think they're like, late, am I late? Am I early? I wanna be an entrepreneur early. I think a lot of people honestly should take the corporate route first to learn about systems, learn about dispensability. You wanna learn about how to build systems for dispensability? Learn corporate, man. Their heart is different. It's to make money to make sure they don't lose anything, but You can take that and apply that into your business when you understand it well for good, you know, for for better reasons than just making money. So yeah, I think that th those two things were probably the biggest. speaker-0: Mm. You know, you're bringing up Cal Newport, who I you know, I think is one of the big thought leaders when it comes to productivity today. And but you you were also in the corporate world before Cal Newport was writing and teaching. Sure. And so what are some of like the the habits that have helped you operate at this level that most people are missing? speaker-1: Mm-hmm. One is I wouldn't say people are missing it, but finding your space in the early mornings is actually really important from a business execution perspective. Yeah. I know there's night people and morning people, but trust me, the morning is a very, very good time to work. because nothing's stacked up yet. End of day usually has a lot of stuff that's been piled on. ⁓ the other I would say is like I have always prioritized investing in the human side of people. So, like my one of the differentiators for me in corporate was, yeah, I managed the numbers, but I met with my people and truly asked them, you know, what are you proud of? Where do you have an opportunity to grow? What can I do to serve you better? Like when I was launching a bank. I mean, I had that meeting with every employee at the company. That at the time it was a startup, there's probably about ninety people. And my calendar was packed with 15-minute one-on-ones with every employee down to the banker for that kind of meeting to give just time to talk as humans. And I think in a world obsessed with productivity, that can be missed because we've applied As the second machine age or even Cal Newport would say, like we've applied the industrial revolution assembly line into knowledge work. And it's it just doesn't work that way. I think we're going through an era where we've gone from that to then trying to put knowledge work into the assembly line, to then knowledge work actually going into an assembly line through AI, which frees us and puts higher value on the human ⁓ interaction side of things, right? Because when AI is not I I This might sound controversial. AI is not really new. AI is just a new form of hyper commoditization. Right? So, like in shoe production, once you could commoditize the making of shoes, well, then a factory could pump out Nikes, right? Well, what became the separator? Why would you buy a shoe that was made in the same exact factory by the same people from Nike instead of somebody else? speaker-0: That's more. speaker-1: Reputation. So it's and that just means trust. So AI, hyper commoditization, and trust, human trust, are inverse. So people will trust you less as things things are commoditized. What that also means is that reputation follows the commoditization. The importance of reputation follows commoditizing. So as things get really easy and as knowledge work gets put into an assembly line. And execution is something anyone can do. Anyone can make a website, anyone can edit a video, anyone can launch an app. Why is somebody going to pick one over the other? It will be relational. It'll be trust. It'll be reputation. So I think that's a part that that human aspect of leading people is actually the hardest part. I think it's really easy. I can throw a rock and find a leader who knows how to execute well, especially in today's day and age. It is a lot harder to find a leader who people want to follow. speaker-0: Yeah. And so what are the traits and characteristics of somebody that people want to follow in a Christian business? speaker-1: You know Yeah, I mean, in a Christian business from a biblical worldview, it's it's pretty easy to to to find the formula. ⁓ you know, the fruits of the Spirit are a great a great test, right? Somebody who is a abiding in the word of God, ⁓ who's unashamed of the gospel and who demonstrates love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, and self control. Those are the qualities that you need. and when people look at the they're everybody's so obsessed with building a great business, they're not thinking about what's going to happen to that business. It's like you know you need great people, right? You know you need great leaders, people that you can hand that off to, that you can trust, are going to use it for good and not just for their own gain. So the the human side of it actually becomes even more important as we commoditize execution and democratize execution. speaker-0: So so kind of to that point. Taking the idea of like AI and how we incorporate it in a business. You can nook look at a news headline, see Meta's laying off fifteen thousand people. Yeah. You know, but how should we as Christian business owners be thinking about AI? speaker-1: Hmm. I think the the question you can ask yourself is is the use of this tool in my business bringing more glory to God or not? So if you are implementing things that simply will make you more money and devastate lives, it's a very it's a simple answer to that question. the the thing that people I think struggle with the most is like where does scale begin and stewardship end? You know, at what point am I not being a good steward by not implementing these tools? speaker-0: Mm. Mm. speaker-1: And I think that's a question that Paul addressed already, which is like you have to search your heart. You need to pray and wait on the Lord. You need to ask. You need to seek his word because it's a heart issue. Like The only thing God's technical about is that justice has to be paid for, sin needs to be paid for. Outside of that, it's all a heart issue. The whole Bible is a view of the condition of our heart. Every question that people ask Jesus, it's always like, it's a heart question. You know, if you are angry with your brother, right? Or, you know, sell everything that you own. This is a ch it's a challenge to your heart. So I would say, like we implement, for example, a ton of AI at Sherman, at Sherman Research. It we haven't laid anybody off because of it. ⁓ if I'm trying to find ways to get rid of people through productivity, you have to ask the question. If you're running a business that is really heavy on Human capital, that is a poor stewardship, you absolutely should do that. But ask yourself some questions. How else are you building the business? How else can people's skills and experience be used in the business? If the answer is that they can't, well, what how would God call you to steward this business? It's not like, ⁓ we let's not use AI ⁓ and devastate business and just have people sitting around who don't need to. It's How do we use this tool so that our business can be used more for God's glory? And that does doesn't mean financial. That's like relational. How do you care for people? Right? What if the money you're saving can go into investing into more benefits and raises for people? And you know, there's all kinds of ways to do this, but there's no silver bullet. And I think we a lot of us want technical silver bullets in like What does it mean to lead a biblical business? And there is no, that's not how it works. most of these things will come down to a heart issue. So then you go, well, how do I solve that? You consult God's word, and then there's wisdom in a multitude of counselors. And so you get good, you surround yourself with people who will speak the truth in love. And this is the truth. Jesus is the way, the truth, and life. And the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. So you want to have people who fear the Lord. Right? Because if you're just getting wisdom from anywhere, from any Joe Schmo on the internet, that's not really wisdom. I mean, it can be good, but it's not infinite wisdom, which is this book here is the only book that has living and active words in the whole universe. So spend your time here, spend your time with the Lord, check your heart, get good counsel, and then make a decision. speaker-0: So in your experience, you take the idea of layoffs firing somebody, which pretty typical when when it comes to a corporate structure, how do we as Christian business owners ⁓ view and approach this differently? speaker-1: I think that we approach it from a place of clear guidelines for people, right? So having clear expectations. The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but haste leads to poverty, Proverbs 21.5. I think that we in grace bear burdens with people. And what that what does that look like in practicum? Well, we don't just fire people because cash is low. We don't just fire people because they made a single mistake. We give opportunities for grace. We give opportunities for adjustment. Okay, hey, this thing happened. Like the performance improvement plan, the pip, doesn't have to be bad language from corporate. That can be like true, like like, hey, here's your role. Here's the expectations of the role. What do you need from me? How can I serve you better so that you can achieve this? They still have to do the work. And so good stewardship is if you do that, and over a period of three months or two months or six months, whatever that period is, they continue to not. Do that, that that is of their choice. And so then you graciously give them opportunities to move on. Maybe you offer severances where they don't deserve it. Maybe you give them benefits where they don't deserve it. There's ways for you to do this that is still gracious and caring, but grace is not ruinous empathy. ⁓ this isn't like salv salvific grace, right? Like we have salvation grace. Stewardship requires stewardship. It requires your diligence. ⁓ so you can extend that grace. But if it's like like just to get really basic, if you need to deliver the TPS reports and you got to do 10 of them a day, every day, you know, five days a week, and then we meet, we're like, hey man, it doesn't look like you're doing it. What do you need from me? How can I serve you better? ⁓ I need this, this, and this. Great, I'll give that to you. I need training, great, I'll give it to you. I need coaching, great, I'll give it to you. ⁓ you did it again and it didn't work. Okay. ⁓ I need you to, you're gonna have to hit this, or else you know, you're gonna be on potentially get ⁓ turn lose your job, right? You're gonna be terminated. You have to go do the work. They don't do the work. Hey, clearly you had the opportunity. I gave you an offer for help. I kept asking you if you needed help, if you anything, you you still have to do the work. I can't do it for you. It seems as if this isn't a good fit. So, you know, here's your termination. ⁓ by the way, you didn't have a severance? I'm gonna give you one anyway. ⁓ by the way, like we don't include benefits because it's the first of the month or the 30th. No, we're gonna extend that out another six months for you and your family because we care. ⁓ hey, we're gonna help you with this job placement and connect you with somebody. It it's not an e it doesn't have to be an either or. It's not like we have to be cold-hearted corporate people or be foolish business people who are like, well, you know. ⁓ Joe just doesn't know how to do the TPS report. So I'm gonna keep paying him in this role that says he needs to do this while not holding him accountable. That's not good stewardship. And then you're also communicating to everybody around Joe that you actually don't value their work as much either because you are allowing these things to happen. So man, it's a it's a it's a complicated dance, but it's worth learning the two step at least, you know what I mean? And and start to like You know what I mean? If you need to start taking line dancing lessons and l you know, you wanna learn all the different ways, ⁓ so that you're well equipped to hit that dance floor no matter what the DJ puts on, you know what I mean? speaker-0: Yeah. I'll start working on my salsa. ⁓ Yeah. I think if someone's been in the corporate world long enough, like they've had experience some experience, most likely where either they themselves or someone very close to them has gotten fired, let go, something along those lines. speaker-1: I wanna see your contemporary. speaker-0: What? I think something that's really cool that you talk about is the idea of blessing people when it's not expected. You know? How can I extend sever their severance when that's not even put in their contract? How can it be that we extend their insurance when they're no longer employed here? You know, how do you How do you Still show them Jesus in that moment. Outside of just the practical ways that you could give give to them. speaker-1: Hmm. I don't think it's about showing them Jesus in that moment. I think it's about showing it in every moment leading up to it. So if your interaction with them is marked by joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness, then the moment that is harsh truth is not indicative of your position toward them. And it's the same in the inverse. If you're a jerk And you never give promotions and you, you know, hold people back and you down talk them and you take credit for wins ⁓ while blaming them for the losses, then giving them a severance at the end and telling them that Jesus loves you is not gonna do it, brother. It is it is not a moment, it is a process. And so we have to be marked in our business. Leading a biblical business means speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: demonstrating that in practicum throughout every aspect of the business, day by day, inch by inch. It's just like your faith. Your faith is not marked by these big moments. Your faith is marked by each day, day by day, inch by inch, verse by verse, word by word, how you live that out. That is the the true mark of your faith. And a momentary sin doesn't negate all of that just like you know b the beauty of God's upside down world is that we can in fact have the inverse, right? We can have this crazy life of sin and then in repentance and in a moment ⁓ accept his grace and ⁓ and be forgiven in perpetuity forward, backward and and ⁓ and through through. So I think Showing Jesus in terminating somebody or letting somebody go is ⁓ it's done well before that moment. speaker-0: Dude, I I remember when we first started the coaching process and I had hired like an a dude on my team and I I tried to do like a test pet test period. Three months. Let's give it a go. Let's see see how it works. And man, I realized like two months in it, I I made the wrong hire at the wrong time. It wasn't the person, it was the role. And it was like the the ⁓ crap moment, right? Where Where this sucks, and do I just like eat my words? Like, do I like how do I handle this gracefully? And I think that like your advice was like, how can you still bless them in this? And and it was like, hey, not just like closing out their three months, but paying out for the rest of the year on top of it, as as their severance, which dude doesn't make any business sense. You know? Like that su it sucks. Or does it sure, yeah, right, and and it but and speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: the larger, bigger picture in it was with recogni recognition of, dude, it's not my business in the first place. Yep. And and because it's not my business in the first place, it's God's business. Then it's like not my money in the first place. It's God's. So he could do whatever he wants with it. And and if this is what I feel called to do right now, then okay, great. I don't want you to have to worry about things after you left your full time job to come work for me. I'm letting you go before Christmas and you know let I just want to make sure you're good. And so it was that. It was it was hey, I don't where do you want to go next? Like what are some other opportunities that interest you and I'm gonna connect you with as many people as I can and just email them and let them know you're great and didn't work out. Like it was a it was such a practical heart change for me, right? Because business sense doesn't make any sense. No And I I think like kind of speaker-1: Business sense is like, ⁓ are you in an at will state? Okay. Well then you terminate and you send them on their way, make sure you delete all their logins and get their stuff. It's like, and I think that's a beautiful thing. Like it's a beautiful thing that you did. And I I think part of that is that like you had the sense of peace after that. Because so when you go, does it make business sense? It it really does, because it's not your business. speaker-0: Yeah, yes. And dude, the thing that rocked my world was, you know, I've spent the past decade like reading like all these books that are on the shelf. And I was like, no, what's the right way? What's the best way? Like best practices when it comes to doing XYZ. Okay, got it. Let's implement that. Let's figure how to do it. And in that moment, it all went out the window and it doesn't matter. And it it was one of those things that What made me so excited just about our conversations and and this opportunity was this idea of like, dude, I wish I had not I don't know if I'm gonna say like didn't read these books, but dude, I wish I came into this concept and this philosophy when I first started. Yeah. Like I I would have saved myself so much time, so much headache, so much heartache if I had just invited God into my business from the get-go, rather than waiting. 12 years to run it and feel like it's me and I'm doing this and it's because it's like we've got the best practices back here. Realizing, dude, these aren't the best practices at all. There's so much philosophy and they're an idea and they work, you know, and they've worked for someone in the past and the way that they want to handle it. And and it was even this idea of like entrepreneurship, what we do, sure, there's systems and and success leaves clues, but at the same time. There's a point to where you could do whatever you wanna do. And like it doesn't matter. Maybe that's not true in corporate America. Maybe that's much more true in a small business sector. But the idea of like you could do whatever you wanna do. And it's like if you wanna bless people, if you wanna give ⁓ raises, if you wanna let people go, but then pay out severance for the rest of the year, if you wanna do whatever, it's like, yeah, what do it. And so then speaker-1: That was the part that blew my mind moving from corporate into the suspension company. I remember one of the first things I did was like, you know, somebody was moving and I'm like, well, yeah, we'll just I'll pay for your U-Haul truck and we'll pay for gas and you know, you'd be able to this thing because we can. And so that I just remember constantly saying, like, you guys understand there's no red tape here. We can do whatever we want, which I had come from, you know, even as a managing director at a at a you know Fortune 150 bank. Every piece of red tape you can imagine, tons of attorneys, tons of compliance officers, tons of where, you know, if you like want to fart a little loud, you might need to get it approved. You know what I mean? speaker-0: And I don't know about for you, for me, that's a big problem. That's a that's a lot speaker-1: Liz HR violation on the smell. I mean it's a And so it was like, wait a minute. you can do whatever you want in this business. And if you are in fact the CEO of this business God's blessed you with, why aren't you talking about Jesus? Is the question. The question isn't should I? The question is why aren't you? And I think, you know, you said something earlier which I think is is been told taught to us, but I think it's like speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: We don't invite God into our business. He's been there the whole time. He's just watching me fumble the bag, bro. speaker-0: Yeah yeah that's so true, man. speaker-1: He's always been there. It's never been separate. That's what makes me feel so dumb. Here's where I'm like, you wish you had it early on. So do I. Only three years ago, three, four years ago, did I come to this place where I realized how foolish I was that my faith and business weren't separated. I'm with you. I wish I knew thought about this earlier on. So that's the mission of like what I'm doing on social, what we're doing through this. It's like, let's challenge each other and sharpen each other to speak the truth in love. To see these businesses led for Jesus. Like, let's go, man. Let's go. We got all this crazy talent out there. Let's let's put it to work. speaker-0: Yeah. Why I I'm tr I really am trying to wrap my head around it. I went to a Christian university who had an entire business department. And I don't think that there was ever a conversation of of how do you lead a biblical business. Of how you incorporate the two. It seemed like there's just such a division of it, and I'm trying to really wrap my head around it. speaker-1: You know, man, it's crazy. I really think that like the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. I don't think it that's what God says. And I think because of that, there's this perversion. And in some ways, I think It's not even like that we have bad intentions. It's almost that we have good intentions of like, well, business and making money is the bad stuff. We need to talk about like the church stuff. I want to go on mission, the mission field. I want to do my my worship and my work for Jesus. Well, wait a second. Because because we've almost demonized work. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: to and business as this like capitalistic greedy thing that can't it's unredeemable. And I think that's where everything is, I believe, changing. I also think this social media thing, as as as n saturated as it feels, it we're still early. Yeah. Like we're still so early that when you were going to school even The the reach was different. And I feel like a lot of the wisdom that is in this subject, because there are lots of people who have been talking about this, who have been beating this drum for a long time, they're just not as good at the distribution on social side. And so that's another part where I'm like, part of that bringing excellence is like, okay, if I know how to build an audience, if I know how to do if I can do these things, well, let's do those for this purpose and start to like. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm, mm. speaker-1: Bring other people into this podcast who've been doing it for decades. Yeah. Right. I have people coming to me, they're like, Adam, I've been talking about this like business as worship thing for this a period of time, and I've been doing this over here. But it's like these these secrets that are kept from the eyes of the current generation because they're not as good. They have a great product, but they're just not as good as good at building a boat, ⁓ a reputation and using the medium. speaker-0: And I think to even piggyback on that, man, one of the things that is making me really excited is I feel like this concept is only picking up steam. That I do feel like more and more people are really asking the question of, wait, why aren't I inviting Jesus into my business? How how what does this look like? How can we make that happen? I feel like I'm seeing it become more and more commonplace and that to me is really exciting. But at the same time, there is this there's this point to where You don't know. Like what does it look like practically? I think it's really good in concept and it's also hard to execute because it doesn't make any sense. And most of the problems are not problems that you're gonna solve by working longer hours and thinking of a better solution. It is problems that start in the heart and that becomes such a that's way harder to work on. I I dude, I would much rather Spend just more time thinking about it and reading more books about it. And it is a it is way harder to just sit and thinking be like, do w God, where is what am I not seeing? Like where is my heart just pulling in the wrong direction? And and what do you need to change in it? speaker-1: It's no there's no question. I I think there's so much there that we all are like people are going through these struggles and how do we build a community of people who can actually speak into that from first principles from their own actual experience and doing it that can then encourage like if your f if your wife and your kids associate the business With your aps. Then it's just like, well, I don't like I don't want that. Bigger business means less dad. No thank you. So how do we you can redeem that? You can. You can. You just have to make a choice. And there are so many ways to do that, but all of them are hard. And you know. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Good ideas die at the door of execution every day. speaker-0: Mm, mm, yeah. speaker-1: So we can sit here and talk, and somebody might be listening to this on their their drive or they're watching on the like, cool, what are you gonna do about it? Yeah. And then they're like, I don't know where to start. What do I do? And so that's the idea of like, like, you know, we had the ⁓ the biblical business conversations event in Court Hane, and CEOs flew in from different parts of the country. It was like, let's talk practically about like, okay, what does that mean in operations? What does that mean in branding? What does that mean in people? And Bridging the gap. Literally bridging the gap between biblical and business. Why it that that's the whole point. It's like, let's bridge that gap to take you from biblical into business. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And so what are the practical things in your mind that help you begin to bridge that gap? speaker-1: It is asking yourself the question in the things that you're doing, what biblical application do I have to reference or to look to relative to the situation that I'm in? And you know what's super cool? Sure, you can like you can read a book like Biblical Business and it'll talk about seven laws. You can also like open your Bible. You can also use AI in a great way, be like, hey, I'm dealing with firing an employee. Can you give me some ⁓ practical biblical wisdom with commentary from biblical scholars around this subject? Like, are you going to the Bible as your source for counsel, or are you asking AI to give you general ideas or asking, you know, Adam 10X on the internet? speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: how I should handle this. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. That that's super that's super good, man. W I I even feel like Two things I've done when it comes to like AI, almost n not in understanding the Bible in a different way. I I I get let me step back. It's encouraging for me to hear you you kind of frame it in that way, in that capacity of understanding things given the situation that you're in. And I feel like two things have been helpful for me is one gathering c cultural context for the time. Because I don't necessarily understand I I I see it from an American, you know, viewpoint. And not necessarily, you know, w where it was in where we're w looking at ancient Babylon. I don't get that. And and I it's gonna be really hard for me to start wrapping my head around it. And the second is like the original text as well. Like looking at the the Hebrew, Hebrew, the Greek, and wrapping my head around, ⁓ there's not even a word for this that is similar and and getting that. And I think one of the things that I've even expressed to you is like feeling this inadequacy when it comes to the spiritual depth of things, to where I feel like in order to now lead a big biblical business, I feel like it's like, do I need to go to seminary to really understand things to to the depth that I need to? Or you know, do I need to I because I think now my viewpoints, I don't need to go necessarily be a missionary in order to advance the gospel. I could do that right here in my business. I don't need to go join and be a pastor. And like for that to be the only way that I, you know, share the gospel. But rather, hey, as the CEO of my company, how can I just be able to love people in an actionable way and sometimes use words in order to spread the gospel? And so I I'm curious to kind of get your take. Is is something like seminary, is something like a pastoral residency? Like how does that play into the knowledge and understanding? Because we can read all these books, we can go to college to understand our business, but It's also different when we are trying to lead as a biblically based company. speaker-1: You know, I think that any wisdom ⁓ and time investment in depth of studying the word of God is a worthy pursuit. I think that if God puts it on your heart to go get a bachelor's degree in biblical studies, dude, rock and roll. Like let's go. ⁓ none of these are a requirement, but I think creating a community of collective wisdom and I think especially finding the people who aren't on the internet regularly, who aren't big personalities, but have lived a life dedicated to Jesus and business and getting their voices is like that's what I want to see. And I think they can give you that wisdom in both practical experience in the business. And a biblical worldview. you know, I love books like Every Good Endeavor ⁓ by Tim Keller. You know, Keller's just like a world class scholar. and so like hearing a take on business is is really important. I also think that In the same way that you don't you can read the Bible and learn about business. You can learn about business, which will apply to your walk. Meaning, like what you study is sort of I don't want to say it's irrelevant, but as long as it's this at the center, you're you're good. That's it. That's the only truth we have. speaker-0: Hm. speaker-1: So test the words, test the concepts, test the books against the book. don't listen to what I have to say. Like test it against the word of God. And I am a person who is willing to always change my mind when presented new information. and I think, man, there's just so many people who've been doing this. And they're not writing about it, they're not making posts, they're not they don't know even they're not doing social media that we can glean wisdom from, real deep wisdom from in how to apply this. Because we think that because the world is so quote different today, they may not have the the wisdom that we need to get ahead. It's it couldn't be further from the truth. There's nothing new under the sun. ⁓ business is business. And that's why that's why I wanted to call it biblical business, because I think those are two things that have been true from the beginning of the Bible and will probably be true in perpetuity, the Bible and business. And let's just keep bridging that gap. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. And man, dude, my hope in it as a young entrepreneur, I have so much to learn. I have so many ways to grow. And I'm early in the game. And You're one of the f first people who I feel like is taking this idea of actively merging Jesus in business and putting those two things together when it feels like oil and water. And my hope is that more and more Christian business owners can come out of the woodwork and just help a younger generation figure out how to do it and speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Man, I d I don't know, that's just my hope. I I just see so much opportunity in it. speaker-1: I think I think God's you know, God willing, I I really believe that that can happen and you've got organizations like the Faith Driven Entrepreneur, like C twelve, and others who are who've been committed for decades to trying to push this concept. I think that It coming from the actual business owners is what's I think the new kind of push versus like an organization supporting business owners to hopefully live that out, which you know, I mean, I'm a I'm a perfect example of the impact of C12. I mean, biblical business wouldn't exist without C12. How can we do that and like pass on that care? speaker-0: Mm. Mm, mm. Mm. speaker-1: and challenge to people within earshot of of this ⁓ of this podcast, of this platform, of really anything, any words that we have and and I'm I'm with you. I think, you know, one life changed is worth it all. speaker-0: Bro, and that's where it needs to end. So dude, thank you so much for just putting a little bit of time in this. Yeah. speaker-1: Rather, looking forward to it. We got more. speaker-0: Yeah, I know you got a book coming out. When is it coming out? speaker-1: I do. Biblical business, the seven unbreakable laws of leadership. It'll come out. We're December is what the prints looking like right now. We're in the final line edits, but ⁓ yeah, excited. You can buy it at biblicalbusiness.com. You can also join the community. We're gonna come out with an app too. You were talking about it earlier. It's kind of interesting. I I'm looking to in this app also create kind of that interface of like a query, an AI query to be able to ask. speaker-0: Sweet. And where could they bot? speaker-1: How do we apply practically these things I'm dealing with ⁓ from a biblical worldview? So yeah. More, a lot more to come. and I'm just looking forward to seeing like who we can bring along this thing and and have here instead of you know listening to you and me talk. I mean I want to hear more from you than me, ⁓ but I'm excited. I'm excited to see what God does. speaker-0: Likewise, man.