Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #823 The Downside to Gentle Parenting

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#823 The Downside to Gentle Parenting · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:07
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
0:10
Speaker 2: Now, it's about saying that you have to be so
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Speaker 2: well regulated yourself when your children have big emotions that
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Speaker 2: you can hold together, not catch their cranky, not catch
0:18
Speaker 2: their chaos, not to catch their crazy, just try to
0:20
Speaker 2: help them catch your car.
0:22
Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom
0:25
Speaker 1: and dad.
0:26
Speaker 2: So I'm in the shops the other day trying to
0:28
Speaker 2: find one of our children who is not where she
0:30
Speaker 2: told me she would be at the time that she
0:31
Speaker 2: told me that she would be there. But she doesn't
0:34
Speaker 2: have a SIM card in her phone because she can't
0:36
Speaker 2: pay for a phone, so therefore she doesn't have one.
0:38
Speaker 2: She just has one that she uses at home now
0:40
Speaker 2: and then, so I can't contact her. Apart from that,
0:42
Speaker 2: because I know I can't contact her, I don't have
0:44
Speaker 2: my phone anyway, so I can't contact anyone about anything.
0:47
Speaker 2: And I'm feeling lost, and I'm starting to get angry, No,
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Speaker 2: not angry, just feeling discomfort and feeling a little bit annoyed.
0:55
Speaker 2: I've been waiting for ten minutes she hasn't shown up.
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Speaker 2: And this man walks over to me wearing a beard.
1:03
Speaker 2: Wearing a beard, Well, that's what you do, you wear
1:05
Speaker 2: a beard. You don't know he's bearded wearing glasses, and
1:10
Speaker 2: he says Justin Coulson, and I said, yeah, yeah, that's me.
1:15
Speaker 2: And I'm still looking worried, and I'm looking past him
1:17
Speaker 2: and over his shoulder and around the corner, trying to
1:19
Speaker 2: find this daughter of ours who's not showing up. And
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Speaker 2: he says, Oh, my name's Ian. I just want to
1:24
Speaker 2: let you know what a difference she've made in our
1:26
Speaker 2: families lives. Like my wife, she's just over here with
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Speaker 2: my mother in law and our baby, and what a
1:33
Speaker 2: difference they've got like three or four year old. And
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Speaker 2: he's just being so kind to me about how I've helped,
1:40
Speaker 2: and I'm looking at him going, just don't follow me
1:44
Speaker 2: right now, because I've got a cranky look on my
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Speaker 2: face because i have a daughter who's not here, and
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Speaker 2: I'm feeling a little bit stressed right now. And he said, well,
1:49
Speaker 2: you've taught us how to be gentle parents, and I'm
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Speaker 2: sure that you'll be gentle when you find her. And
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Speaker 2: I was. I was very gentle when she finally showed up.
1:55
Speaker 2: Twenty minutes late, but he got me thinking. I said
2:00
Speaker 2: that I'd taught him all about gentle parenting, and that's
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Speaker 2: not something that I really promote. It's not something that
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Speaker 2: I talk about. I don't argue in any way, shape
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Speaker 2: or form that I'm a gentle parenting advocate, because I'm
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Speaker 2: all about well in the paring revolution, I'm all about
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Speaker 2: the need supportive parenting style that I've written about at length.
2:22
Speaker 2: But it got me thinking gentle parenting is really everywhere,
2:25
Speaker 2: and there's an awful lot in common with what I
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Speaker 2: share and what gentle parenting seems to be. But while
2:32
Speaker 2: I was thinking about that, I was doing some googling
2:34
Speaker 2: and found an article that was in the Sinning Morning
2:36
Speaker 2: Herald a couple of months ago from Samantha Selena Morris,
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Speaker 2: the host of that Please Explain podcast, and Samantha basically
2:45
Speaker 2: said gentle parenting is making kids helpless, which made me think,
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Speaker 2: I wonder what other criticisms there are of gentle parenting
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Speaker 2: out there. I'm a critic at times of some elements
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Speaker 2: of gentle parenting, and so Kylie. I've done some research,
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Speaker 2: well not the real true academic research, but I've done
3:02
Speaker 2: some googling I've done some googling. Here are the criticisms
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Speaker 2: of gentle parenting, and I thought we could talk about
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Speaker 2: them and then describe whether the criticisms are valid or invalid,
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Speaker 2: and what we can do in our parenting to be
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Speaker 2: better regardless of what we want to call our parenting style.
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Speaker 3: How many criticisms do you have?
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Speaker 2: I came up with five, five as I was looking
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Speaker 2: around and trying to find ideas. Five criticisms of gentle parenting.
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Speaker 3: Okay, what are you five?
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Speaker 2: Number one people accuse gentle parents of being permissive. The
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Speaker 2: kids can get away with anything, no limits, no boundaries.
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Speaker 2: All that matters is the kid's emotions. And if the
3:40
Speaker 2: kids are having a hard time, that's okay. You just
3:41
Speaker 2: don't let them do anything. You see, Bill, those big,
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Speaker 2: horrible negative emotions.
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Speaker 3: Will you see this really play out in young kids specifically, well, yes,
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Speaker 3: gentle parenting, Yes, big emotions. They've stolen a toy and
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Speaker 3: mom and dad, you know, coddle.
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Speaker 2: Them and got to come in and fix everything up.
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Speaker 2: We also saw it in parental Guidance when it was
4:00
Speaker 2: time for the photo shoot, the family photo shoot. It
4:03
Speaker 2: was literally in episode one and our gentle parents, they
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Speaker 2: had a particularly tough time. I'm just going to come
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Speaker 2: sit with you. Okay, he.
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Speaker 3: What is it?
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Speaker 2: They don't know?
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Speaker 3: We're not going to be.
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Speaker 2: Hitting your children. To me, showed zero respect for you.
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Speaker 2: You've picked up one of your children and they smacked you.
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Speaker 2: How do you deal with your kids smacking you? I
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Speaker 2: see no respect.
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Speaker 3: I see no discipline.
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Speaker 1: Mate.
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Speaker 3: If any of my kids struck at me, that's not okay.
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Speaker 2: So that's the first criticism that seems to come from
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Speaker 2: people who are unhappy with the whole gentle parenting thing.
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Speaker 2: It's just lets the kids get away with whatever they want.
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Speaker 2: What's number two, it's not gentle on parents. And what
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Speaker 2: I mean by that is to be a quote unquote
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Speaker 2: gentle parent, or if we extended into any of the
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Speaker 2: more child oriented parenting styles, it means that it takes
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Speaker 2: a lot. It takes a big toll on us. It
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Speaker 2: is harder to parent like that for us, especially in
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Speaker 2: the short term, that it is to be more authoritarian.
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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, I'm just going to put it out there
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Speaker 3: that if you were looking for gentle in your life,
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Speaker 3: that becoming a parent probably was not the right thing.
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Speaker 2: But you don't know that before. You just see these
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Speaker 2: little angels being cuddled by their mummies and think, oh,
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Speaker 2: I want to hold that baby. I want to do
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Speaker 2: that as well.
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Speaker 3: Parenting in general is not gentle.
5:28
Speaker 2: To gladiate a sport. Isn't it so hard? Tough enough?
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Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying.
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Speaker 3: I'm not saying tough enough. I'm just acknowledging that, regardless
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Speaker 3: of what style you go with, parenting is not gentle
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Speaker 3: on us. It is hard because it puts a mirror
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Speaker 3: up to ourselves in all the things that we wish
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Speaker 3: we weren't.
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Speaker 2: I guess the criticism really is or where we lack.
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Speaker 2: It's about saying that you have to be so well
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Speaker 2: regulated yourself, no matter how hungry or angry or lonely,
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Speaker 2: a tired, or stressed you are, you have to be
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Speaker 2: so well regulated yourself when your children have big emotions
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Speaker 2: that you can hold it together. Not catch their cranky,
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Speaker 2: not catch their chaos, not to catch their crazy, just
6:10
Speaker 2: try to help them catch your calm.
6:12
Speaker 3: I get that, but I also think it's important for
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Speaker 3: us kids to recognize that we don't keep our calm
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Speaker 3: all the time.
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Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm gonna talk about that in a sec and.
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Speaker 3: How we deal with the repair at the other end.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, great stuff, that's important. It is, it is absolutely
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Speaker 2: Number three. Quite often kids don't know what they're feeling,
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Speaker 2: and so therefore the criticism is why you're spending all
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Speaker 2: this time on feelings with kids who don't know what
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Speaker 2: feelings are and don't know what they're feeling.
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Speaker 3: Number four the.
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Speaker 2: Next criticism that I found as I googled, and I
6:40
Speaker 2: really actually resonated with this one. I mean, I have
6:44
Speaker 2: some pretty strong arguments against several of the criticisms that
6:48
Speaker 2: we've heard, but this one. Empathy for your child often
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Speaker 2: demonstrates a lack of empathy for the people around you.
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Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to dissecting that one a little. What's
7:00
Speaker 3: number five?
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Speaker 2: So this was the headline of the Sydney Morning Herald
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Speaker 2: article that got me perplexed about this following my conversation
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Speaker 2: with Ian, and it was that if you're a gentle parent,
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Speaker 2: that you're raising your children to be helpless. Now I
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Speaker 2: read Sam's article and she actually got it wrong. She
7:18
Speaker 2: was really talking more about helicopter parenting than gentle parenting.
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Speaker 2: She conflated the two. But I think it's worth spending
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Speaker 2: just a minute or two on each of these criticisms
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Speaker 2: of gentle parenting. Not that I'm an apologist for gentle parents,
7:29
Speaker 2: not that I'm here to advocate for gentle parenting, but
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Speaker 2: just to emphasize how important it is that we recognize
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Speaker 2: the good and the bad and that we get this
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Speaker 2: stuff right because so much of it actually does tie
7:39
Speaker 2: in with what need. Supportive parenting is the stuff that
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Speaker 2: I talk about because it is a very nice way
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Speaker 2: to raise your kids.
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Speaker 3: Well, if we go back to number one, we got permissiveness.
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Speaker 3: Can I just put it out there that you could
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Speaker 3: be any number of parenting styles and still have a
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Speaker 3: permissive attitude towards certain.
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Speaker 2: Things totally like free range parents unquestionably are oriented in
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Speaker 2: that direction. It really is, It really is a thing.
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Speaker 2: But if you think that permissive is part of gentle parenting,
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Speaker 2: then you just don't understand what that parenting style is about.
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Speaker 2: What gentle parents do is they work on the emotional
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Speaker 2: state of their children and help them to get equilibrium
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Speaker 2: and balance, and then they do the problem solving the limits,
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Speaker 2: setting the boundary discussions, and make sure that the kids
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Speaker 2: get what's expected and what's not So for people who
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Speaker 2: are saying gentle parents don't have any limits or boundaries.
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Speaker 2: They're permissive. That just comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding
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Speaker 2: of what gentle parenting is.
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Speaker 3: Number two was an acknowledgment that gentle parenting isn't gentle
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Speaker 3: on our parents, especially our mums.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that this is actually a reasonable criticism.
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Speaker 2: We have got to be all things to all people
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Speaker 2: all the time, and it's hard to be balanced. It's
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Speaker 2: hard to be calm, especially when you've got way too
8:55
Speaker 2: much going on, not nearly enough time to get it
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Speaker 2: all done, no money to pay for it all, and
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Speaker 2: it's all feeling. Oh and you've got three kids who
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Speaker 2: are having a big screaming banshee fight, meltdown, chaos, craziness
9:06
Speaker 2: thing happening in the next room.
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Speaker 3: So can I ask a question? Yeap, Is it any
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Speaker 3: easier to be angry all the time?
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Speaker 2: No, it's not. That's really important, And I was going
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Speaker 2: to contradict myself a little bit just before you ask
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Speaker 2: the question and say that the alternative is no better.
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Speaker 2: And in fact, if we can be gentle to the kids,
9:27
Speaker 2: if we can work with them on their emotional state,
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Speaker 2: what we're typically going to do is build up our
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Speaker 2: children's and our own emotional intelligence and therefore our emotional resilience,
9:38
Speaker 2: and over time we will get better at it and
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Speaker 2: it will be gentle. Honest, I think that that criticism
9:45
Speaker 2: is completely unwarranted. But I also think it's important that
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Speaker 2: we get real with ourselves and every now and again
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Speaker 2: just acknowledge the reality of humanity, which is that sometimes
9:55
Speaker 2: this stuff is hard, and sometimes we're going to get
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Speaker 2: it wrong, and sometimes everyone is just having a big
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Speaker 2: emotional moment and a dummy toys out of the court,
10:01
Speaker 2: take my bat and ball going home. Sometimes life is
10:03
Speaker 2: like that as well.
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Speaker 3: If our kids don't see a full range of emotions,
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Speaker 3: then they actually don't have any reference point to deal
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Speaker 3: with it when they see it down in the big world.
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Speaker 3: If we live in this little utopia bubble, and I
10:22
Speaker 3: don't know anyone who does, but if we live there,
10:27
Speaker 3: the first time our kids come up against somebody who
10:32
Speaker 3: is really angry, that will shake them.
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Speaker 2: To the core. I want to extend what you've just
10:37
Speaker 2: said a little bit and highlight it's not just you
10:39
Speaker 2: said the full range of emotions, but your conversation has
10:42
Speaker 2: focused on being frustrated and angry. What our children really
10:46
Speaker 2: need to be exposed to is an expansive emotional vocabulary,
10:51
Speaker 2: because your emotional world can only only be as big
10:54
Speaker 2: as the words you have to describe it. Yeah, And
10:56
Speaker 2: so our job really is to sit with our children
10:59
Speaker 2: and say, what does it feel like now, calm, contented
11:03
Speaker 2: or maybe pensive. Start to expand their emotional vocabulary. Let
11:09
Speaker 2: them know that they can be a gas, they can
11:11
Speaker 2: be enraged, they can be depressed, they can be sedentary
11:17
Speaker 2: or sedate.
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Speaker 3: Like maybe when they say they're happy, you know.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, what is happy?
11:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, the other day you were happy when the
11:25
Speaker 3: puppy you know, did a trick at the beach or whatever,
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Speaker 3: and today you're happy because of this? Like, how does
11:30
Speaker 3: today feel different to the other day.
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Speaker 2: It's kind of like I love ice cream and I
11:34
Speaker 2: love mum. Well, what's the difference between loving ice cream
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Speaker 2: and loving mom? Yeah?
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Speaker 3: And so maybe the other day what you are actually
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Speaker 3: feeling and giving them options there and today might not
11:43
Speaker 3: even be happy. Maybe today is and giving them added
11:47
Speaker 3: emotions to play with, right to sit with.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess that's and this kind of ties
11:52
Speaker 2: in with our next one as well, and that is
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Speaker 2: that they don't know what they're feeling when we expand
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Speaker 2: emotional vocabularies, we expand emotional range and emotional experience, we
12:02
Speaker 2: build emotional intelligence, and ironically, we start to learn what
12:07
Speaker 2: we're feeling. So people who will say I'll stop being
12:10
Speaker 2: a gentle parent, this isn't working. This is ridiculous. Your
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Speaker 2: children don't know it. Well, how are they going to
12:16
Speaker 2: know it unless you do this with them. The emotion coaching,
12:19
Speaker 2: the emotional conversations are really important. But I love this.
12:26
Speaker 2: This is a metaphor that Lisa Damore uses in her
12:28
Speaker 2: book The Emotional Lives of Teenagers. She actually gives credits
12:31
Speaker 2: to one of her colleagues, but I can't remember the
12:33
Speaker 2: name of her colleagues, so Lisa Damore gets the credit.
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Speaker 2: In this conversation, she says this, it's really important. She says,
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Speaker 2: emotions matter. They give us valuable information. But imagine you've
12:45
Speaker 2: got a board of directors running a business. You don't
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Speaker 2: let your emotional member chair the board. You make sure
12:56
Speaker 2: that the planning and strategy guy or girl is chairing
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Speaker 2: the board. Emotions get a seat at the table, but
13:02
Speaker 2: they don't share the board. They pass on relevant information,
13:05
Speaker 2: but they don't share the board. And I think that
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Speaker 2: is perhaps what the whole gentle parenting emotionally intelligent parenting
13:13
Speaker 2: movement is really all about. It's about saying, let's take
13:16
Speaker 2: this information, let's build it into our decision making processes,
13:21
Speaker 2: but let's make sure and this is a valid criticism
13:24
Speaker 2: some people really do because they I'm going to say,
13:27
Speaker 2: they panned to their children's emotions rather than coach their
13:29
Speaker 2: children through their emotions. There's a big difference, and I've
13:32
Speaker 2: seen both when we're pandering when we're living. Our children
13:35
Speaker 2: have all of the emotions all the time for way
13:37
Speaker 2: too long without the coaching that helps them to settle,
13:41
Speaker 2: and then the problem solving that comes subsequent to that.
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Speaker 2: What we are doing is we are elevating emotions to
13:46
Speaker 2: a level that they shouldn't be, and that will come
13:50
Speaker 2: back to bidas. That is a reasonable criticism of gentle
13:53
Speaker 2: parenting done wrong.
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Speaker 3: So just recently we had an experience. We have one
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Speaker 3: of our children in particular, is very emotional, big emotions
14:02
Speaker 3: in lots of different ways.
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Speaker 2: And much emotion, and so recently.
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Speaker 3: I decided to take her to a kinesiologist and as
14:11
Speaker 3: part of that process, she kind of just helped us
14:14
Speaker 3: to understand why there was so much big emotion. And
14:18
Speaker 3: so since then, I've noticed a massive shift in this child,
14:24
Speaker 3: to the point that we had pretty much a whole
14:27
Speaker 3: week almost without any big emotion, Like it was like,
14:30
Speaker 3: this is massive for this child. But towards the end
14:35
Speaker 3: of the week, things started to escalate again, and I
14:39
Speaker 3: sat down with her and I just I said to her,
14:42
Speaker 3: I said, what's going on? I said, We've had a really,
14:44
Speaker 3: really good week, and I said, and things just seemed
14:47
Speaker 3: to be unraveling a little bit. And she said, I've
14:51
Speaker 3: already told you what's wrong. And I said, can you
14:53
Speaker 3: tell me again? And she explained that something had happened
14:55
Speaker 3: on Friday at school and it's just sat with her
14:59
Speaker 3: over the weekend and it's, you know, she's been mulling
15:01
Speaker 3: over it, and obviously the more she's thought about it,
15:04
Speaker 3: the bigger it's God in her head. And so we
15:07
Speaker 3: were able to talk about just what a gift it
15:10
Speaker 3: is when her emotions start to get big. It's actually
15:14
Speaker 3: an acknowledgement that there's something that needs to be done.
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Speaker 3: It's actually if we can see that emotion literally as
15:22
Speaker 3: a gift to highlight that there's something we need to
15:26
Speaker 3: address or work on, it changes everything.
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Speaker 2: It really does.
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Speaker 3: It changes everything and she was able to kind of
15:34
Speaker 3: we had a big embrace.
15:35
Speaker 2: I put some.
15:36
Speaker 3: Oils on her and said, you know, I love you
15:38
Speaker 3: and just you need to remember that in spite of
15:41
Speaker 3: the challenge that you've had here, there are people that
15:44
Speaker 3: love you for you, and that's that's what you need
15:48
Speaker 3: to focus on.
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Speaker 2: The gentle, compassionate approach, the need supportive approach makes such
15:52
Speaker 2: a difference. Now we have two more things to talk about.
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Speaker 2: We're almost out of time. So which one was the
15:56
Speaker 2: next one we were talking about?
15:58
Speaker 3: Oh, empathy.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so when we get empathic with a child, sometimes
16:03
Speaker 2: that leads to a lack of empathy for other people
16:05
Speaker 2: around you. So just quickly, like if you're at a
16:07
Speaker 2: restaurant or in a shopping center or in a park
16:10
Speaker 2: and your child is having a meltdown, yes you do
16:13
Speaker 2: need to be gentle with them, but that doesn't necessarily
16:16
Speaker 2: mean that that is the time and place to go
16:18
Speaker 2: through the entire process. Sometimes look around, read the room.
16:23
Speaker 2: It might be worth saying, I know you're really upset
16:26
Speaker 2: and we need to deal with this, but let's go
16:28
Speaker 2: for a walk outside, or let's move over there, or
16:30
Speaker 2: let's move away from these people, or.
16:32
Speaker 3: There's times where I've had to say to the kids,
16:34
Speaker 3: I know that you're really upset and I want to
16:36
Speaker 3: talk with you about this, but I can't do that
16:38
Speaker 3: right now.
16:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's going to depend on the age of
16:40
Speaker 2: your child as to that.
16:41
Speaker 3: We can just move through this as best we can
16:44
Speaker 3: now and you and I can spend some time later tonight.
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Speaker 2: I guess the real point here is empathy for others
16:52
Speaker 2: needs to be considered. It's not just about you and
16:54
Speaker 2: your child. It's kind of like those people who walk
16:56
Speaker 2: around and they're having conversations on speakerphone. It was like, no, no, no,
17:00
Speaker 2: we don't care. We don't want you to have this conversation,
17:03
Speaker 2: and we don't only hear the conversation. Take it somewhere else.
17:06
Speaker 2: You can empathically and gently kick it down the road,
17:09
Speaker 2: or move your child elsewhere so that you can show
17:11
Speaker 2: consideration for others.
17:13
Speaker 3: And your last one is this notion of raising kids
17:17
Speaker 3: to be helpless.
17:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is again, this is what Samantha Sell
17:20
Speaker 2: and Jamorris said in the Cinemony Herald. Like I said,
17:23
Speaker 2: she conflated helicopter parenting with gentle parenting, and it kind
17:28
Speaker 2: of well, well, this just highlights how much people struggle
17:32
Speaker 2: to get it right. But she does quote from Judith Locke,
17:35
Speaker 2: who wrote The Bond Side Child, and I think that
17:37
Speaker 2: she said something that was it sounds like it's a
17:40
Speaker 2: bit of tough love, but I kind of like what
17:43
Speaker 2: she said. Judith Locke said, we've kind of written a
17:45
Speaker 2: script for kids where everybody else is responsible for making
17:49
Speaker 2: you feel better. She says, I think it's the current
17:53
Speaker 2: environment in which we always emphasize care in these situations
17:57
Speaker 2: as opposed to slowly introducing demands or expectations and opportunities
18:01
Speaker 2: for them to overcome it. Now, I don't want to
18:05
Speaker 2: turn this into a tough enough princess conversation. That's not
18:08
Speaker 2: what it is.
18:08
Speaker 3: I don't think you need to, though. I think about
18:10
Speaker 3: the three c's that you talk about regularly.
18:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, these are the three basic psychological needs, and
18:14
Speaker 2: we've alliterated them. It's not technical what they are.
18:17
Speaker 3: But you've got connection, yep, you've got competence, and you've
18:21
Speaker 3: got sense of control, a sense of control. If we're
18:24
Speaker 3: able to look at how we're able to meet each
18:26
Speaker 3: of those needs. What I love about a true gentle
18:32
Speaker 3: parent approach is that we're doing this in a way
18:35
Speaker 3: that supports our children's autonomy. We're acknowledging that they're a
18:40
Speaker 3: human who has rights, feelings, emotions, and desires, wants needs.
18:47
Speaker 2: So it all comes back to and you Deith Block
18:49
Speaker 2: has said it, although not in these words, if we
18:52
Speaker 2: can help our kids to get to get their head
18:54
Speaker 2: around their emotional state and pull it back together, then
18:56
Speaker 2: we can begin to slowly introduce demands and expectations and
18:59
Speaker 2: opportunit and is for them to overcome it. We do
19:01
Speaker 2: need to help them to learn about those emotions though.
19:04
Speaker 2: That's the core of need. Supportive parenting and gentle parenting
19:07
Speaker 2: overlaps really nicely with it. I just think we need
19:09
Speaker 2: to stop the bashing up though of gentle parenting and
19:11
Speaker 2: gentle parents. These parents who are really involved and invested
19:15
Speaker 2: in their kids' well being and growth and development, and
19:19
Speaker 2: if they do it right, I think, well, well, we
19:23
Speaker 2: don't have any research on gentle parenting. We've got plenty
19:25
Speaker 2: of research on several aspects of it we ay all
19:28
Speaker 2: point in a positive direction.
19:30
Speaker 3: We've got years and years of research that supports the
19:34
Speaker 3: parenting styles that we grew up with, which were very different.
19:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, very different.
19:42
Speaker 3: And an absolute lack of emotional vocabulary to suggest that
19:50
Speaker 3: while this might not be the golden standard, where leagues
19:53
Speaker 3: ahead of where we were.
19:54
Speaker 2: So I'm just going to say generations ago. I'm just
19:56
Speaker 2: going to say it.
19:56
Speaker 3: What are you going to say?
19:57
Speaker 2: Gentle parenting is not going to ruin your kids? Really,
20:01
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying.
20:01
Speaker 3: Okay.
20:02
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