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Killer Thriller: Mark Geragos: What It’s Like to Defend Someone Everyone Thinks Is Guilty · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. Holmes present Killer Thriller with your
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: host Elisa Donovan.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Okay, Wow,
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: am I excited for today's episode. Today we are talking
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: about the Lacy Peterson case through the eyes of the
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: ultimate insider and someone who's built a career defending people
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: the public has already judged for a little review. On
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Christmas Eve two thousand and two, Lacy Peterson, eight months pregnant,
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: vanished from her home in Modesto, California. What followed was
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: a case that gripped the country, built largely on circumstantial
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: evidence and a husband many believed was hiding something from
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: the very start. More than twenty years later, it still
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: sparks debate about guilt, fairness, and what justice really looks like.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: And that is where today's guest comes in. Mark Garrigos
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: was Scott Peterson's defense attorney and is one of the
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: most high profile lawyers in the country. Hi.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: Mark, thank you so much for doing this today.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: I know you're extraordinarily busy and I'm really honored to
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: speak with you today.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be on.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, today, We're going to start with obviously speaking about
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: Scott Peterson in this case.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: So this is obviously a case that people feel.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Very strongly about and continue to and it's still making
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: the news today. So first of all, I want to
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: ask when you first met Scott, what was your impression
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: of him?
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: I was very favorably impressed. But actually before I met Scott,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: I met his late mother, who Jackie, who I adored.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: I've instantly had an affinity for her, and she actually
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: she and her husband Lee had called me up and
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: they were kind of excoriating me, if you will, because
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: of made and what I said to them was at
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: the time, actually I didn't say to them, but I
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: said on TV is there are a lot of guys
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: in state prison on a lot less evidence than the
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: bodies showing up at the place where your alibi was.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: They came in, they still wanted to meet, and I
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: met and Jackie back then, I'll never forget, had a
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: oxygen tank which.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: She wore right, yes, they remember you.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: See a lot of people being her pulling it up
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: at both Modesto and San Mateo. And I asked her
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: about it, and I said, what's the issue, and she said, well,
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: the doctors, I've got a pulmonary issue, and the doctors
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: tell me that I've only got six months to live.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Basically changed doctors. And I thought, with that kind of
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: an indefatigable attitude that I would I went up and
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: I met Scott who was being held in custody. Was
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: taken with him, and against virtually everybody's advice again to
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: take that it was a no win situation, but I
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: took the case anything.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Wait, so you say you're taken with him, meaning he
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: did you feel that he was innocent or you had
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: compassionately what was the sense?
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to convey to people who weren't
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: in the midst of it twenty five years ago. It's
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: amazing twenty three years Yeah, just the prejudgment rate of
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: presumption of guilt, it was. It was like nothing I
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: had ever seen. And the I remember talking to my father,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: who was my partner, and he kind of said to me, words,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: it still ring. If you're worried about what people think,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: then you're in the wrong line of work. And he
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: was a expert, and I thought that that rang true
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: to me. And then what really kind of stuck with
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: me was when he was arrested and kind of marched in,
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: if you will, with the officers into the jail. The
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: surrounding crowd and the celebratory nature of it reminded me
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: kind of of the Jim Crow era, and I've always
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: been a huge fan to kill a mockingbird and resonated
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: with me in a sense, and everybody was there. Fast
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: forward to jury selection, and I'll never forget there was
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: a truck, a trailer truck with giant pictures of Scott
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: in his jumpsuit with vote. It was a radio station,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Vote Man or Monster, and it was shouse during jury selection,
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: and I bitterly complained about it. And as the late
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Judge Deluki, who presided over the trials, said, where do
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: you want me to send this case to a capsule?
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: To circle the.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: Earth right right right? Like where would he have gotten
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: a fair trial? Is that the sense that it really
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: was the court of public opinion had already decided.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Don't take this the wrong way. But I've said this
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: often that when I was handling that case for basically
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: two years of my life, I used to go to
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: the gym every morning, and inevitably, a young white professional
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: woman would recognize me and say you represent Scott Peterson,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: and then inevitably she would ask me a series of questions,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: how do you explain this? And I would explain it,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: how do you explain that? And I would explain it,
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: and I would debunk every single one of them, and
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: then almost unfailingly, they would default too. Well, I had
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: an ex boyfriend like him, and I can just see
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: where he would have done it, and it's get past that.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: And that was one of the things I think that
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: once in the media there was that picture of him
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: and Amber together and then the picture of Lacey at
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: a Christmas party yep, very pregnant, sitting in a chair,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: and when you judge the post Thos, it hits at
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: a level that you just can't get past.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: How do you explain him lying to Amber that his
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: wife was already missing before she.
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: Officially was missing.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: So one of the things that one did not I
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: think resonate as much with people as this one, the
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: one where after she went missing, he was on tapes
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: talking to Amber, and on those tapes they had recorded him.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Because the stuff that was non recorded we could deal
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: with because it appeared to be kind of formulated, but
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: you had to deal with the stuff that was on
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: tape and what people don't remember. I remember it obviously
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: because I was involved in roughly two thousand and two
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: thousand and one, Chandra Levy had also gone missing.
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: Is yes, that's right.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: I represented the congressman who was Gary Condit, and Gary
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Condit was the congressman from Modesta where this took place.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: So it was to say it, well, the wall, it
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: was unbelievable. In fact, the only thing that two years,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: three years prior had a clipped the Gary Kanda Chandra
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Levy's story from the tabloid and cable and everything else
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: was nine to eleven. That's what knocked it off. The
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: cable cars, Oh my gosh, right, of course. And by
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: the way, I was doing nightly cable shows with Barbara Olsen,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Barbara Olsen who was married to Ted Olson, the Solicitor
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: General who died in one of the planes on nine
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: to eleven. She was flying away. We were going to
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: do a show together, and that's what knocked Gary Conda
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: off the the kind of the newswaves. But what people
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: also tend to forget is that as soon as it
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: was reported that there was an affair, as soon as
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: the police that was it. Nobody wanted to listen to
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: anything else. I remember having my investigator tell me, and
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: he came up with, look, it's obvious to me. There's
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: a guy who's in custody for knocking women who were
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: jogging in the park there who were wearing headphones or
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: back then they called him something else, and that was
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: the logical culprit if you will. And I remember saying,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: once the snow defrosts, I bet you. Unfortunately, we're gonna
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: see the end. We're gonna see this as opposed to
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: back then Dominic Dunn had his theories about that she
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: was sold into white slavery and dropped in the ocean
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: on the way to Saudi Arabia. I mean, it was
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: crazy town. So anyway, Scott, having seen this, knew that
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: the minute that Amber surface, he knew enough that that
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: would be it game over. Nobody would search for Lacy anymore.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: So he was trying in his mind to clearly damp
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: down Amber while the search went on. But those tapes
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: were bad because anyway you look at it, he was
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: he was lying to her that he was in Paris
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: and there was the fireworks, and I think that was
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: very difficult for some of the jurors to get over.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: But also remember with you know, little fun facts and
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: as you can tell, this is not the first time
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: I've discussed.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: Now I feel you're an expert on this.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Jury was out for seven days. That jury was hung.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: The fact I'll never forget. On day seven, at the
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: prosecution's best, they kept removing jurors that were voting not guilty.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: We got to the four person of the jury, a
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: guy that I nicknamed doctor Lawyer. Doctor Lawyer was a
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: highly educated obviously he was both an MD and a JD.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: And he came back in and the judge had not
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: sequestered the jury during the trial, but he sequestered them
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: during deliberations, which provided all kinds of problems because they
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: were at each other's throats and there was a hung jury.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: And then the four person. Mind you, the four person
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: comes in and says, I no longer feel like this
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: is all on the record, you can check the transcript.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: I no longer feel like I can deliver a fair verdict.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: I feel threatened, and I feel like people are voting
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: just to satisfy what the community wants. He's so, wow, record,
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: I'm objecting. I'm asking for a mistrial. The judge not
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: only doesn't grant the mistrial, he asked the four person, well,
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: are you afraid that you can't go on and deliberate anymore?
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: And says yes, I feel threatened, and they judge removes
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: him and puts in a new juror Strawberry Shortcake, who
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: has their own issues, and they get verdict, you know,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: in no time flat, after seven days of deliberations where
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: they were hung Wait.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: I no see this as very interesting.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: As a person who followed this whole trial, I did
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: not know that. I wouldn't even think that would be legal.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize that that was allowed.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Let me give you a couple other fun facts. Number one,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: it was a death penalty case. Okay, got it. During
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: jury selection, the judge would ask people, can you you
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: know there's a death penalty case? Can you vote for
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: the death penalty? People would answer on questionneers, I'm against
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: the death penalty. The judge would excuse them, and I
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: kept screaming, Judge, you can't just excuse them. You got
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: to ask them. If you tell them that this is
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: the law, can they follow the law. You got to
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: do the next question, Judge, wouldn't do it. No, I'm
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: not wasting time. We've got sixteen hundred people. Everybody thinks
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: he's guilty. I can't waste all my time on this.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. A unanimous, unanimous California Supreme Court appointed
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: by both parties reversed the penalty phase the death penalty
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: because he used the wrong standard that was not the
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: right standard. What I will never never get over is
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: they didn't reverse the conviction because one of the reasons
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: prosecutors use the debt pedally traditionally is you get more
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: pro prosecution jurors. They tend to believe the prosecution, believe
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: law enforcement. They don't follow the law in terms of
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: having treating all witnesses the same blah blah blah, So
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: they tilt towards the prosecution. The California Supreme Court, rather
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: than reverse that, set it back for further hearings and
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: things of that nature. And subsequently, that's why we're in
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: the ritz of Habeas corpus, not we, but the La
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Innocence Project.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Now, so that's what right this is you're speaking about
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: most recently, this the efforts to So where does it
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: stand now?
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: Are you and are you representing him, I'm not currently No.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: In fact, I know the reason, and I didn't take
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: the appeals because it's actually the only murder case I've
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: ever had where and I've tried, I can't tell you
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: how many murder cases, the only one who were special
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: circumstance was found in death penalty imposed. And I said, no,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: you got to be able to attack my performance, and
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: so I'll get another lawyer. And he had what I
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: think was probably the premier a pelot lawyer in California
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: who's Cliff Gardner. And Cliff ably convinced unanimous California Supreme
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Court to reverse the penalties phase. So he's now facing
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: life without and hopefully somebody in the Court of Appeal
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: where the habeas is right now, reverses that and he
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: gets the new trial he deserves. Wow, you're the one
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: who asked, by the way, let me tell you just
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: how crazy this time was. Mind you, this is twenty
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: three years ago, twenty two years ago. Do you know
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: that when we lost, CNN actually did a poll, an
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: online poll, and a friend of mine put it into
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: a snow glow. Does Mark Derrett still have a career?
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: And you know, public, the public voted two to one
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: that I did. So the WOW just knows what they're
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: talking about.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, let me tell you something.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Of all the things that I thought I might sort
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: of discover in this conversation, I never thought I might
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: start to think that maybe he's innocent now.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: But let me tell you something that I would tell
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: anybody else. And I don't say this for every client,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: but I don't think anybody knew the evidence in real
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: time better than I did. I certainly don't say that
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: that's the case after twenty something years, But in real
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: time I knew this evidence. I knew it inside out.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: And other than Pat Harris, who tried the case with me,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: I don't think, and to some degree a lesser degree,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Matt Dalton, who since died. I don't think anybody spent
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: more time in real time who knew the evidence and
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: was dealing with Scott and say this guy is not
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: good for it. I just it's And when people ask me,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: what how do you sleep at night defending people that
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: you know are guilty, I say, I sleep like a baby.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Then where I lose sleep and for years had to
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: undergo alcohol therapy, was when I believe somebody is innocent,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: because that to me, it's like a doctor. I've represented
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: many doctors over the years, and they when they lose
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: a case or a human that haunts them for their career.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, then why why didn't Scott take the stand?
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: And do innocent people ever not take the stand? So
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: I guess you're saying that that they do.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: I tell you why I think and why I have
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: counseled over the years. I'll give you two examples. Generally,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: if you're in custody and you're in a cement box
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: every morning, and you're sitting there and you're watching this trial.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: By the way, you have to go through a trial
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: to understand just how horrific it is to have people
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: say things suggest that basically make you into a monster.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: So you do that, then you've got a whole team
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: of prosecutors who are well rested, go home every night's
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: sleep and see their loved ones and eat good meals
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: and exercise and go to the gym. You're sitting in
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: a jail with a six by eight cement cell, and
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: it's just it's an unfair fight, so to speak. Again,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: to quote my father, it's a rare case that gets
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: better after the people rest and I made the determination.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: And anybody, by the way, who watched that case in
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: the courtroom would have told you they had not proven
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: their case. People who were there the people because and
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: the biggest mistake I made was supporting the prosecution not
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: wanting cameras in the courtroom. I think it just so
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: much got into the ether as to what the endpust was.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Didn't see that the evidence wasn't that the judge recessed.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: At one point the local columnists and newspaper columns said,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: there is no there there. They were reporting in real
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: time anybody who was in that courtroom, and to have
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: put him on would have changed six months of trying
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: that case where we basically slaughtered all the evidence. And
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: I say that purposefully. There was no compelling evidence. We
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: don't know when she died, we don't know how she died,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: we don't know where she died. All we know is
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Scott gave an alibi and four months later, five months later,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: that's where Lacy and Connor were found. And by the way,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: four or five months later, really I know that in
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: and of itself is somewhat suspect.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: It just still feels it seems that anytime he would speak.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, I don't know how I would feel
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: if I were in that situation. It's impossible to know,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: but I think what people generally feel like is anything
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: he said. He that there was no sort of remorse.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: He never seemed to show any kind of real grief,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: shell shocked.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: I never would have. I didn't represent him at the
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: time he gave that interview, the one the ABC. Yeah,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: isn't this an Amy rawback?
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, Amy in her prior iteration was ABC. I
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: always used to joke ABC could really stand for anybody
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: but a convict, because they interviews, whether it was Diane
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Sawyer or whoever else those interviews. I can't tell you
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: how many times in a courtroom I had to deal
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: with an ABC interview of somebody who taped it. Before
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: I became the lawyer. What didn't.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: When you meet a client in general, like what are
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: you looking for? Are you first thinking I need to
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: know this person is really innocent? Or are you looking
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: at it like can I argue this case?
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: Like what do you mix? You decide to work with someone.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Depends on what stage you're talking about. At certain points
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: in my career there were cases still to this day.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Certain cases are interesting and attractive to me. Certain cases,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: at certain times I feel like there's a reason I
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: want to represent the person. I give you some examples. Yeah,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Mike Tyson. When Mike came to me, it was not
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: for his criminal case. It was because he had a
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: bankruptcy case and he could not earn more than an
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: IRS and he was mired in this horrible situation. He
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: had this wonderful sty does wonderful wife named Kiki. We
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: were able to extricate him from there, and I thought
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: it was just horrible when it happened to him. People
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: had taken advantage and we got him extricated. And you know,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: every time I see him now, I have a little
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: modicum of pride. Colin Kaepernick, that was the case. I
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: just loved that case. I loved representing Colin. I thought
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: the NFL was off base and we got a great result.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: I thought, even though he hasn't played, I could name
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: case after case after case. And the one that kind
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: of changed the trajectory of my career was during Whitewater,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: taking a case with a woman named Susan mcdoodall, who
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: was Bill Clinton's business partnering We tried a case here
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: in Santa Monica back in ninety eight one acquittals across
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: the board and then promptly went to Little Rock and
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: got an acquittal on the obstruction and hung the contempts.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: And so there are certain cases that interest me generally
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: when it's the government it beating up on somebody in
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: so it's kind of that's part of it. Sometimes money
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: makes a difference, sometimes it doesn't. I've represented people probono
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Johnny Cock, as Johnny used to say, or maybe it
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: was Sean Holly quoting Johnny. I never know, but I was,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I represent Ojays and no.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: Jays, right right, right?
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Well do you ever separate what you believe personally from
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: what you argue professionally?
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't know that I can, because a defense
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: lawyer has a different ethical obligation than a prosecutor. Prosecutor
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: is supposed to seek justice, a defense lawyer is supposed
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: to zealously represent their client. If I had a nickel
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: for every time my client has told me a story
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: that I said that doesn't pass the smell test, and
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: then press them or cross examine them, and then it
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: turns out inevitably that they don't want to tell you
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: the real story, because it's more embarrassing than what they're
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: accused of. That's generally what I find, oh interesting if
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: you don't press the client on certain things. But also
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: one of the I have this idiosyncratic nature to it.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: I want to know what the on a criminal case.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: I want to know what the prosecution is before I
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: go to my client and start to get into theirs.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: I want to see what their universe of facts or
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: data is like.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: When you're dealing with these cases that are so high profile,
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: how much strategy goes into managing the media coverage versus
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: the courtroom itself.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Well, one of the big things is in managing the
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: media coverage, but not just the media, it's also if
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: it's somebody who's high profile enough that they've got what
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: I call the Nickel and dime krav which is the
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: ten percent people who manage their career. I'm a one
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: off person, drops in for me for some crisis and
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: then I'm out. So people who they've got long standing
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: relationships with, I'm brought in just kind of as a
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: mercenary and some great.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: Right right, right?
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Do you think do you think that Scott's it's original
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: case if it was tried today, the outcome would be different.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: I do. I do, But then again, I think I
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: would approach certain things differently, and I think I think
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: that part of the beauty, so to speak, of citizen
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: journalism what I call citizens, is that people are reflexive.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: One of the bright things about where we are right
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: now is society is people just don't buy what the
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: government is selling. Simply, it's just not I was with
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: a judge this morning who I mentioned the FBI, and
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: she said, well, the FBI, you know, it's kind of
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: that would have been right years ago.
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: Right, that's so true.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: I didn't even think about that. How all the institutions
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: are sort of just questioned a little bit more.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Well, twenty years ago, legacy media what was then the
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: mainstream media. We're basically cheerleaders for the prosecution, and it's
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: no longer the case right.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Something on the Menendez Are you involved in their the
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: current state?
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: I talk with their parole lawyer with great frequency, and
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: I have a robust texting relationship or tablet relationship with them,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: and I'm hopeful we do. Yeah, And I'm hopeful that
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I've that they get out this year.
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: I'm hopeful for that too.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: I've got one more question.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: Okay, Oh, do you think that your clients always tell
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: you the truth?
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: No, I know they don't.
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: You know they don't.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: And it goes back to what I just said. Sometimes
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: the truth is infinitely more embarrassing than what they're telling,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: which they're what they're accused of.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: So right, you're so wonderful. I really appreciate this time
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: that you've taken with me. So I'm a big admirer
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: and I appreciate the work you do.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: So thank you, thank you, Aye Bye.