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82. The Hidden Stories Behind Children's Behaviour with Helen Younan-Barrett · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy: Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:03
  Tracy: I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators from, and clients from around the world.
• 0:13
  Tracy: Looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy: Kia ora, everyone.
• 0:34
  Tracy: Welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:37
  Tracy: Today, I'm really excited to be sharing this space with Helen Younan-Barrett.
• 0:43
  Tracy: Hey, Helen.
• 0:44
  Tracy: How are you doing?
• 0:45
  Helen: I'm very well, thank you, Tracey.
• 0:47
  Helen: Very well.
• 0:47
  Tracy: Great.
• 0:47
  Tracy: I'm so pleased that you, um, accepted this invitation to join me.
• 0:51
  Tracy: I'd really love for you to share a little bit about who you are, and just whatever's there for you for the listeners and the viewers.
• 0:58
  Helen: Yeah.
• 0:59
  Helen: Okay.
• 0:59
  Helen: Um, and thank you for the invitation to come on your podcast.
• 1:02
  Helen: I've been a big fan.
• 1:04
  Helen: So I am… I'm Helen.
• 1:06
  Helen: I am a registered play therapist and social worker, and gosh, there's many titles, but I, I'm also a family constellations facilitator, and I'm based in, in Victoria.
• 1:18
  Helen: I am the founder of the Family Systems Hub.
• 1:22
  Helen: That is a service that works with children and families who have been impacted by childhood trauma.
• 1:30
  Helen: So we work directly with these families, offering play therapy, offering systemic support through constellations or through psychotherapy, and I'm also a mum of a 12-year-old And a big part of who I am, uh, is that I come from an Assyrian heritage, which really informs my passion of working with families.
• 1:56
  Helen: Yeah.
• 1:57
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 1:58
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 1:59
  Tracy: How did you get interested, or how did constellations find you?
• 2:02
  Helen: Yeah.
• 2:03
  Helen: I came across constellations work with my play therapist supervisor at the time, who was, um, in the States, and she's Argentinian, and she was studying family constellations.
• 2:14
  Helen: And she was, I guess, weaving in some of the systemic thinking- Mm-hmm as I would explore cases about families that I was working with.
• 2:24
  Helen: And at the time, so that was about four year, or four or five years ago, and at the time I had left my marriage, I had really been working on my business, and I was struggling a lot.
• 2:36
  Helen: I was struggling a lot in the co-parenting relationship.
• 2:39
  Helen: I was struggling with, um, seeing the, my clients when the kids would come through and they wanted their parents in the room.
• 2:46
  Helen: And traditionally, play therapy is very focused on the child.
• 2:50
  Helen: Ah.
• 2:50
  Helen: Like allowing the child to express their inner world and give space and acknowledgement and help them process.
• 2:57
  Helen: But a lot of the pa- a lot of the children wanted their parents in the room, and I didn't know how to really find a way that could support this.
• 3:05
  Helen: So, so I guess family constellations, when I started to understand it more, and I was introduced to the TV series Another Self, which I loved.
• 3:14
  Tracy: Which, which by the way, comes out next week.
• 3:17
  Helen: Oh, like a- Part three … really?
• 3:20
  Tracy: On the 20- Oh, wow … it's the 23rd- That's exciting … i- in the States, but the 24th- Yeah … coming for us.
• 3:25
  Helen: Oh, that's really cool.
• 3:26
  Helen: So I loved Another Self, and I was like, "What is this approach?" And it started to make more sense to me.
• 3:32
  Helen: And o- of course, that then set me on my own personal journey of working, working through some of my challenges and difficulties I was also having in my life that was connected to my mother and my father.
• 3:44
  Helen: So-
• 3:44
  Tracy: Mm… Helen: yeah, it became a personal journey that I'm w- you know, wanting to integrate more in my professional work with families Great.
• 3:55
  Tracy: So did you … Sorry, I'm … Did you train in Australia or… Helen: I trained in Australia.
• 4:00
  Tracy: So I trained, um … My teacher was, uh, Edwina.
• 4:03
  Tracy: Oh, beautiful.
• 4:04
  Tracy: And
• 4:04
  Helen: so, so I trained with her, who was amazing.
• 4:08
  Helen: But then I've also inform- … I think when I came across family constellations, I just wanted to know so much about it.
• 4:14
  Helen: Mm. So I started reading.
• 4:16
  Helen: I started watching videos.
• 4:18
  Helen: Um, so it's been an informal study, but more recently more of the, um, formal training.
• 4:25
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 4:26
  Helen: Mm.
• 4:27
  Tracy: I love that you're, you're incorporating it also in, with, with or alongside of the play therapy.
• 4:35
  Tracy: So- Can you talk a little bit m- about that?
• 4:37
  Helen: Yeah.
• 4:38
  Helen: So up until I, hmm, I would say probably the last year or so, I have been really taking on looking at the cases that I have and what my team has.
• 4:49
  Helen: And as I'm supervising, I'm always now just looking at the orders and thinking- Mm how do these orders apply to what's going on with the child who is, um, exploring what's going on for them in the playroom?
• 5:03
  Helen: So I don't know if you know about play therapy.
• 5:05
  Helen: Do you know much about play therapy?
• 5:07
  Tracy: Um, hit me up.
• 5:10
  Tracy: Let me know.
• 5:10
  Helen: Okay.
• 5:10
  Helen: So play therapy is a, is a psychotherapy approach for children aged between two to 12, and we use the toys and the play and the therapeutic relationship to help children understand themselves and understand their world that they're in by expressing, and they express that through projection.
• 5:29
  Helen: They express it through the way they play and what they play, and how, how they may engage with certain toys and objects that speak to parts of themselves or their family generally- Yeah … or events in their life.
• 5:43
  Helen: So it gives them, in many ways, like constellations, it helps you to see what is going on right now.
• 5:49
  Helen: I-
• 5:50
  Tracy: is it where sand tray work is in?
• 5:52
  Tracy: Or-
• 5:52
  Helen: You can include … There, there's sand, um, and figurines there- Mm … but it's not exclusively just that.
• 5:58
  Helen: So the child in play therapy, they direct.
• 6:01
  Helen: They- Yeah … they direct how they wanna express and what they wanna use.
• 6:05
  Helen: So we have lots of different mediums of play and toys and games, and they choose.
• 6:10
  Helen: They choose what they wanna do, and through the lens of play therapy, we get to understand what that representation means for them.
• 6:19
  Helen: So play therapy can help process emotions and sensations that have not been integrated for them in their, in their life.
• 6:27
  Helen: But it can also bring dynamics that, that I was starting to see may be connected to their family system.
• 6:34
  Helen: So up until, you know, up until really into the last few months, we would have potentially family constellations as separate.
• 6:41
  Helen: Yeah.
• 6:41
  Helen: So the parents would explore family constellations, and then that would give us an, you know, help and understanding of what the child is also expressing.
• 6:49
  Helen: But now I've been really experimenting with looking at how to incorporate the principles of family constellations, the orders of love, in the play session.
• 6:59
  Helen: So I get, we get to see Where the child is, um, being bigger than the parent.
• 7:05
  Helen: We get to see that the child is actually being the one that's more parentified because of the way who they represent in the play.
• 7:13
  Helen: So it's been really fascinating to work with those two with this session.
• 7:19
  Helen: Do
• 7:19
  Tracy: you have the parents in the room, obviously when- Um,
• 7:21
  Helen: yeah
• 7:21
  Tracy: Yeah So
• 7:22
  Helen: either have, uh, we either work with the child separately or we'll have the parent or the caregiver, and if, if they're together then, and we c- and we can see that, oh, there's a, the child is the one that's taking on a lot of responsibility- Mm-hmm then we could work with bringing those truth sentences and have the parent step in and say, "I'm the big one. You're the-"
• 7:45
  Tracy: Oh, fantastic.
• 7:47
  Helen: I know.
• 7:48
  Helen: This is something that I'm, I'm, I'm so fascinated by, and I can see that this has a place.
• 7:54
  Helen: Yeah.
• 7:54
  Helen: But I'm in this research testing phase to see how we can more and more- Yeah understand that it's going on here.
• 8:04
  Helen: Yeah.
• 8:05
  Helen: And that also invites then the opportunity for the parents to do some of their own personal work.
• 8:12
  Tracy: Mm. Yeah.
• 8:13
  Tracy: ' Helen: Cause we can- Yeah.
• 8:17
  Tracy: Wow.
• 8:18
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 8:18
  Tracy: And I guess, too, it kind of comes to the… I don't know if you see this, but sometimes the parent brings the child 'cause they think that the child's got this problem, da-da-
• 8:26
  Helen: Yes
• 8:26
  Tracy: or something's going on, but there's nothing going on for me.
• 8:30
  Tracy: I'm okay.
• 8:31
  Tracy: Yes.
• 8:31
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 8:31
  Tracy: Don't even consider asking me to do anything.
• 8:34
  Tracy: Is that something that you see sometimes?
• 8:36
  Helen: Yes, of course.
• 8:37
  Helen: Mm. I think this has been something that, um, over the last two years I've been wanting to find a way to create more safety and non-judgment for parents- Mm to be able to, like, be more vulnerable and know that it's not about blaming.
• 8:55
  Helen: It's not about that they're not doing a good enough job.
• 8:58
  Helen: It's about knowing that their child is not separate to them.
• 9:01
  Tracy: Mm.
• 9:01
  Helen: And they're not separate as well.
• 9:03
  Helen: Like, they're all part of this interconnected system.
• 9:06
  Helen: And so when I set up my service at the time in 2019, it was called Play Therapy Hub, and it was focused on offering play therapy and, and empowering and supporting children.
• 9:18
  Helen: The parents weren't really front and center.
• 9:21
  Helen: So we did attract families coming through to say, "Fix my child. My child's got this emotion regulation issue or this problem. They need to change." But I discovered over time that actually, yeah, we were making wonderful progress and we could see the child was being strengthened, but then they would return back to their environment.
• 9:42
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 9:42
  Helen: Then they would come back.
• 9:44
  Helen: And the parents were having the same difficulty.
• 9:47
  Helen: And so I knew that I had to change this.
• 9:49
  Helen: I knew that this wasn't the only solution.
• 9:52
  Helen: We had to look more widely.
• 9:54
  Helen: And so when I came across family constellations, I made a decision that we were gonna really expand our focus.
• 10:01
  Helen: So we then relaunched our service to the Family Systems Hub.
• 10:05
  Helen: Yeah.
• 10:05
  Helen: And then we started to slowly kind of, again, open the pathway to more parents being more involved.
• 10:12
  Tracy: Well, it's just… That's so beautiful.
• 10:16
  Tracy: That's so beautiful.
• 10:17
  Tracy: And, uh, as you were sharing,'cause I was going, m- my mind was going, "Woo," into my own s- Past.
• 10:24
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 10:26
  Tracy: And, um, I w- it was when I was a single mom and, um, y- you know, my first marriage had dissolved, and there was this big period of time when I was a single mom, and I had some real struggles with one of my daughters, and-
• 10:40
  Helen: Yeah
• 10:41
  Tracy: and, and stepped into some support.
• 10:43
  Tracy: And I did- yeah, I didn't have the capacity at that time in my life to even… I, I needed resourcing, you know?
• 10:50
  Tracy: Like, oh, I was running on a thin wire.
• 10:54
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 10:54
  Tracy: So to know that this is now available, wow.
• 10:58
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 10:59
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 10:59
  Tracy: Fantastic- It- … 'cause you need resources, eh?
• 11:02
  Helen: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:02
  Helen: It's, and I think that's been the message for us.
• 11:05
  Helen: How can we resource you?
• 11:06
  Helen: Mm. Like, how can we really resource you so that you can resource your child as well?
• 11:13
  Helen: But we still get those fam- we still have those families- Mm … still coming, wanting to just, you know, like, there's one thing of the, a, a parent may say,"Yes, I, I'll do whatever it, it takes.
• 11:22
  Helen: I, I'm willing to support my child." But that's one thing, but when you really get to it, it's really scary-
• 11:33
  Tracy: Mm. Yeah… Helen: to confront that there are aspects childhood that I haven't really attended to.
• 11:41
  Tracy: Exactly.
• 11:41
  Tracy: I look, yeah, I can look back and go, "Oh, yeah, she was just playing out what was ri- running in my, um-
• 11:47
  Helen: Yes
• 11:48
  Tracy: my back office." Yep.
• 11:50
  Tracy: Absolutely.
• 11:50
  Tracy: Yep.
• 11:50
  Tracy: Crikey.
• 11:51
  Tracy: Yep.
• 11:51
  Tracy: Hindsight's a good thing, isn't it?
• 11:52
  Helen: Yes.
• 11:53
  Helen: Sure is.
• 11:54
  Helen: Sure is.
• 11:55
  Helen: Wow.
• 11:55
  Helen: It's challenging.
• 11:56
  Helen: So yes, it's still a challenge for us, but we're, the needle is moving.
• 12:00
  Helen: I do think the needle is moving, that there are more families curious and open to wanna change- Mm … and not just leave it for their child to do the changing.
• 12:10
  Helen: Yeah.
• 12:11
  Tracy: Okay.
• 12:11
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 12:11
  Tracy: How do you describe constellations?
• 12:14
  Tracy: 'Cause obviously you've got a variety of-
• 12:17
  Helen: Yeah… Tracy: people.
• 12:19
  Helen: So how would you describe it if you're sharing it either… Oh, anyway.
• 12:24
  Helen: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:25
  Helen: I really struggle with this question, and I know that, um, it's common for many- Mm … facilitators.
• 12:30
  Helen: You
• 12:30
  Tracy: w- you were waiting for me to ask, weren't you?
• 12:32
  Helen: I was waiting.
• 12:34
  Helen: I didn't think it would be this soon, Tracy.
• 12:36
  Tracy: Oh, let's get it over and done with.
• 12:37
  Helen: Yes, let's get it over and done with.
• 12:38
  Helen: Um, gosh, I, I feel like every time I answer that or I, it, it's always different.
• 12:43
  Helen: But I would say for me, and when, and what I do share is that- It's a deeply powerful, profound therapeutic tool that w- can help us see the source of one's suffering that is connected to your family system.
• 13:03
  Helen: And that may be through patterns that we're not aware of, it may be through, um, dynamics in our relationships that we're repeating that we're not really aware of that's connected behind us, and it can help bring new awareness.
• 13:19
  Helen: So it allows to make new shifts, it allows you to bring new possibilities of how to move through life in a way that is more speaking to your how you want to move through life that gives you more freedom so that really future generations don't continue to carry it for you.
• 13:38
  Helen: So it's-
• 13:39
  Tracy: Yeah
• 13:40
  Helen: Yeah
• 13:41
  Tracy: Brilliant.
• 13:42
  Tracy: I love it.
• 13:42
  Tracy: I love it that there are so many different ways, or it's the same message but it's just, you know, comes through in a different, slightly different language.
• 13:50
  Tracy: It's great.
• 13:50
  Helen: Yeah.
• 13:50
  Helen: Thank you.
• 13:51
  Helen: Well, I mean, I, I sometimes say… Well, I guess it depends on the family, but I, you know, when I, when I'm seeing that their particular child in the session just, just seems much older than what they need to be or, um, there is a sense of, um, so much rage being expressed with this child, I, I so get curious about that.
• 14:16
  Helen: And I get curious so I, I try and open that pathway for parents to understand that, you know, tell me a little bit more about what… how rage was expressed.
• 14:26
  Helen: Was it expressed in your system?
• 14:28
  Helen: Um, what was it like growing up with your family?
• 14:31
  Helen: What were your… You know- Mm … just understand, helping them understand that this may be a repetition, 'cause often parents don't realize that.
• 14:37
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 14:38
  Helen: You know?
• 14:38
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 14:39
  Tracy: Okay, so just on that subject, so if you have a child that comes and you got that, and you recognize the rage, and when you're talking to the parents and like, how do they, how do you invite them to express that, or- For
• 14:52
  Helen: the parent or for the child?
• 14:54
  Tracy: Either,
• 14:54
  Helen: either.
• 14:55
  Helen: Either.
• 14:55
  Helen: Well, for the child, if… I mean, there's always gonna be something that the child needs to work on anyway.
• 15:00
  Helen: So even if maybe the, the source of the rage doesn't come from them, but it- Mm … there's still a component of that, that they've come into this life needing to learn and needing to, um, develop and be in a relationship with.
• 15:16
  Helen: So there's something for the child as well that we're supporting to build their capacity and make sense of.
• 15:23
  Helen: But then at the same time, and that would be through co-regulation, understanding, all those things, that's, that's important.
• 15:30
  Helen: But then it's also if, if there is a lot of, you know, if I can identify that there's so much rage, and that might be maybe connected to a dysregulated nervous system, and that might be through the first few years of life there was difficulties in the pregnancy, or maybe in the birth- Mm or there was family violence going on in the initial years, that would have an impact.
• 15:52
  Helen: But I'm also aware that patterns play out.
• 15:54
  Helen: So I would, I'd be asking the parents in the session, um- Questions around, okay, what was, what was the conception pregnancy first few years like?
• 16:06
  Helen: What was life like growing up in your family?
• 16:10
  Helen: Was there any conflict in the relationship?
• 16:13
  Helen: I'm, I'm trying to find out where this, who expressed rage, who didn't express rage, um, to see if there's any patterns that are showing up.
• 16:22
  Helen: And- Yeah … then, then that allows to hear more of the stories if they're there, you know?
• 16:28
  Helen: And if that was something, um, that was a issue for the parent, let's say maybe mom.
• 16:34
  Helen: Mom ex- finds it so difficult to cope with her child's meltdowns or rages and, and she can't find a way to express it, then I'd get curious about, okay, so w- where does that live in your childhood?
• 16:49
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 16:50
  Helen: And then that might be, again, depending on how open they are, but that might be a process that we might do about inner child work, or maybe a process that we might do with constellation to see where the rage is, you know, the symptom of that, who it belongs to What needs to be expressed.
• 17:08
  Helen: It just depends
• 17:09
  Tracy: That's so exciting for, to know that you're… 'Cause in a way, like you shared, you know, you're exploring-
• 17:16
  Helen: Yeah… Tracy: and so it's like there's some new I think for those who are interested in constellations and are interested in working with children, it feels like you're kind of on that leading edge.
• 17:30
  Helen: That's what it feels like to me.
• 17:31
  Helen: Yeah, maybe.
• 17:32
  Helen: I, I think I still… Actually, you know, w- it reminds me of when I started my course with Edwina, and then, it was probably the first couple of months, and I started to really just see parallels between a family constellation process and the stages of a family constellation process.
• 17:49
  Helen: Mm. Of like the beginning, and then, you know, what you acknowledge as is, and then having to separate what's been entangled, and then reconnecting what's been separated.
• 18:01
  Helen: I could see those phases really in the play therapy phase that we have in our therapeutic process.
• 18:07
  Helen: Yeah And I was like, "Wow, okay.
• 18:10
  Helen: This is… Play therapy is family constellations for children, and family constellations is like play therapy for adults." And then it was like, "So how the heck can I figure-- how do I find a way to integrate it?" And so I, I don't have the answers yet, but I can see.
• 18:25
  Helen: I'm starting to see patterns.
• 18:26
  Helen: And the person, um… Who was it?
• 18:29
  Helen: Alejandra Pistorio.
• 18:31
  Helen: Do you remember?
• 18:31
  Helen: Mm-hmm.
• 18:32
  Helen: Mm-hmm.
• 18:32
  Helen: She… Yeah.
• 18:33
  Helen: So she told me to look up a woman called Marianne Frank.
• 18:37
  Tracy: Oh, I was j- it was on the tip of my tongue.
• 18:38
  Tracy: I was about to ask you, "Have you seen any work from Marianne Frank?" Yeah.
• 18:43
  Helen: So I've just started to read-
• 18:45
  Tracy: Mm… Helen: her book, that I can't now she was, um, experimenting in her classroom of grade six students.
• 18:53
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 18:53
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 18:53
  Tracy: And so I was like, "Oh, okay. So how…" Yeah.
• 18:57
  Tracy: So I'm really, I'm really curious about how I, how I grow this and evolve this, and this becomes more of a systemic approach with families in play therapy.
• 19:07
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 19:08
  Tracy: Gosh, imagine if we had it in schools.
• 19:11
  Helen: I know.
• 19:11
  Helen: I, yeah, I, I think- There's been- there's- And
• 19:16
  Tracy: even the, even if the teachers learned some of it, you know?
• 19:20
  Tracy: Like, that- Oh,
• 19:21
  Helen: absolutely… Tracy: and then they would have the, hold the foundation for the kids.
• 19:29
  Helen: Absolutely, especially when they spend so much time in that environment, and it's another system.
• 19:34
  Helen: Mm. It's another family that they're connected to.
• 19:36
  Helen: It
• 19:36
  Tracy: is.
• 19:36
  Tracy: And often they're the mother for lots of children, right?
• 19:39
  Tracy: Of
• 19:39
  Helen: course.
• 19:39
  Helen: In
• 19:40
  Tracy: that space at that moment, or father.
• 19:42
  Helen: Yes.
• 19:43
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 19:43
  Helen: Yeah.
• 19:44
  Tracy: Wow.
• 19:45
  Helen: Yeah.
• 19:45
  Helen: Yes.
• 19:46
  Helen: It is.
• 19:46
  Helen: I, I, I think the more we move towards, like, less pathologizing, less in- individualizing, and really start incorporating who is this child, who are they a part of, and how do, how do we, again, understand this system that they're connected to, that they're showing us as a messenger that there's all these other unresolved experiences that, you know, require-
• 20:12
  Tracy: Yeah
• 20:13
  Helen: us to look at.
• 20:13
  Helen: You know?
• 20:14
  Helen: I think it's exciting.
• 20:15
  Helen: I really… I think it's something that, um, I feel is missing, you know?
• 20:20
  Helen: But it's, yeah.
• 20:22
  Tracy: How do people come to you?
• 20:23
  Tracy: Like, is it something that they, they pay for themselves or is there a social service that sends it to, them to you?
• 20:28
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 20:29
  Tracy: How does… Yeah.
• 20:30
  Helen: So different ways.
• 20:31
  Helen: We're, we're a private practice, but we… So we do accept, um, inquiries that may be funded by organizations, community organizations like Anglicare or- Mm … depe- yeah, other community agencies that have funding that often come through family violence funding.
• 20:49
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 20:50
  Helen: Or we have NDIS.
• 20:51
  Helen: Do you have NDIS in your… And that's pro- um… It's a insurance, a disability insurance scheme, so, um, it supports-
• 21:00
  Tracy: It's probably like at what we call ACC here, Accident Compensation Corporation.
• 21:05
  Tracy: Maybe, um- Okay … well, that's a national, that's something that is, covers the whole of New Zealand, so yeah.
• 21:10
  Helen: Okay.
• 21:10
  Helen: Well, this is equivalent to Australia.
• 21:12
  Helen: It's a national scheme.
• 21:13
  Helen: So families receive a block of funding that supports a child's emotional, social, behavioral development, and if they've got diagnoses they can-
• 21:22
  Tracy: Oh, no, we don't have that.
• 21:23
  Helen: Yeah.
• 21:24
  Helen: Okay.
• 21:24
  Helen: So we accept, um, funding that comes through government, um, and third-party organizations, and then the other part of that is private, self, self-funding.
• 21:33
  Helen: Yeah.
• 21:33
  Tracy: Self-funding, yeah.
• 21:35
  Helen: Yeah.
• 21:35
  Helen: Yes.
• 21:36
  Helen: So yeah.
• 21:37
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 21:38
  Tracy: And so have you always worked with children?
• 21:40
  Helen: No.
• 21:40
  Helen: I, when I started out as a social worker, I was 24, and I found myself in jobs working with, um, homeless men and adults with disabilities in ABI, acquired brain injury centers and-
• 21:56
  Tracy: Wow.
• 21:56
  Tracy: Yeah… Helen: and I realized that Like, who am I at 24 to know how I can help a 50-year-old homeless man with drug addiction?
• 22:05
  Tracy: Like- I don't know.
• 22:06
  Tracy: Yeah, I, I worked with adults with disabilities a lot.
• 22:10
  Tracy: Um, and it was interesting as I reflect this, I think, ah, I wonder what took me down that line of working with the elderly and adults?
• 22:20
  Tracy: And I go back to my family of origin.
• 22:22
  Tracy: My father was diagnosed with schizophrenia very, very, when I was very young, and I was an only child for about until I was 16, and I was raised by my grandparents and my parents.
• 22:36
  Tracy: Mm. So I've always been around adults and older people.
• 22:39
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 22:39
  Tracy: So that made sense to me that I was like, ah, I went to something that was familiar, but I really wasn't very equipped.
• 22:47
  Tracy: And so- Mm… Helen: so then probably six years later, urge to wanna have children, and then somehow, I don't know, I don't know why, but somehow I was just fascinated about children and wanted to learn more.
• 23:04
  Tracy: And so then I did further studies in counseling and kids, um- Mm in children mental health And play therapy found me, and then that became the next chapter of my life.
• 23:19
  Tracy: So since 2016, I have worked with children and families, just focused on that group.
• 23:26
  Tracy: Brilliant.
• 23:26
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 23:27
  Helen: Yeah.
• 23:28
  Helen: Yeah.
• 23:28
  Tracy: So interesting, the timeline.
• 23:29
  Tracy: 2000- So you already had a little one then?
• 23:32
  Helen: Yes, I had, I had my daughter in 2014, and that was probably one of the significant shakeups of my, my life then.
• 23:43
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 23:44
  Helen: Yeah.
• 23:45
  Tracy: Oh, yeah.
• 23:46
  Helen: Yes.
• 23:47
  Tracy: Changes everything.
• 23:48
  Helen: It does change everything, but it w- it was also a, a, a turning point towards looking at my own, my own family of origin.
• 23:57
  Helen: Mm-hmm.
• 23:57
  Helen: And I'm so glad for that, even though it was very difficult, but…
• 24:02
  Tracy: A- are you okay to share a little bit about that?
• 24:04
  Tracy: 'Cause you s- you shared that you were a, an As- Assyrian?
• 24:09
  Helen: Assyrian heritage, yeah.
• 24:10
  Tracy: Not Syrian, Assyrian.
• 24:13
  Helen: Assyrian, yes.
• 24:14
  Helen: So Assyrian, um, we don't… There is no country.
• 24:18
  Helen: So there is Syria, and that's by the Syrian population.
• 24:23
  Helen: But the Assyrian are an old, w- a very old tribe, culture- Mm … that, um, had their homeland or their, their village in southern Turkey, so where the borders of Iraq and Syria.
• 24:38
  Helen: And I guess it's, the language comes from Aramaic, so we're a very ancient, ancient culture.
• 24:47
  Helen: But we were also the minority, and that was due to, uh, a lot of wars and, and persecution, um- Yeah … by the Ottoman Army.
• 24:57
  Helen: So I've come from a line of where there, uh, our, our culture and our identity and our language was something that n- wa- was wanting to be extinguished.
• 25:07
  Helen: So my parents were refugees to Australia, and so I can appreciate that for their existence has been more about survival for them.
• 25:19
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:21
  Helen: And so growing up, I just… My dad was very unwell.
• 25:26
  Helen: My mum- wasn't coping.
• 25:29
  Helen: She lived with her in-laws and wasn't used to that.
• 25:34
  Tracy: So, so- Yeah … your father's parents came over as well to
• 25:37
  Helen: Aus- Yes, so my father came over, came to Australia in the late '60s, and then brought his family over as well.
• 25:45
  Helen: And then my dad met my mum in Melbourne.
• 25:48
  Helen: Uh, and then over the years, the Assyrians, um, did migrate to Australia because it was unsafe.
• 25:57
  Helen: 'Cause they were, they were taken over by the Arabs, and so they really had to exist, coexist with the Syrians- Oh … and the-
• 26:06
  Tracy: Yeah… Helen: and because they were in the where it was predominantly Muslim, so it wasn't safe for them.
• 26:15
  Tracy: Okay.
• 26:16
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 26:16
  Tracy: Wow.
• 26:17
  Tracy: What a history.
• 26:17
  Helen: Yeah.
• 26:18
  Helen: Have
• 26:18
  Tracy: you, have you ever been back there?
• 26:20
  Helen: No.
• 26:21
  Tracy: To your ho- to the homeland?
• 26:22
  Helen: No, I haven't.
• 26:23
  Helen: No, I haven't been.
• 26:24
  Helen: And you know, again, I think I mentioned be- before, I mean, before we started recording, it was, again, growing up, I… It was very strict in our household.
• 26:33
  Helen: You had to speak Assyrian 'cause there was this sense of we, we, in order for us to belong and not lose our… Everyone needs to uphold this, this culture.
• 26:42
  Helen: Everyth- we stay as a family.
• 26:44
  Helen: Yeah.
• 26:44
  Helen: We speak the language and, and I guess I found that really suffocating, and I really struggled and wanted to be completely with the Anglos.
• 26:54
  Helen: I mean, so complete with the Anglos that in the end I end up marrying an Englishman, and I was the only one- Oh, yeah out of the whole family that went in predominantly outside of the tradition.
• 27:05
  Helen: So it was interesting for me how I went to, went on the rebellion side.
• 27:11
  Helen: But then- You know, coming back through f- constellations, it actually helped me come back, come back to the roots of my, my heritage, that I so now appreciate and value because it is about connection.
• 27:27
  Helen: So-
• 27:27
  Tracy: Yeah… Helen: yeah.
• 27:29
  Tracy: Yes.
• 27:30
  Tracy: Fantastic tool, isn't it?
• 27:31
  Helen: Mm. Yes.
• 27:32
  Helen: I don't think I answered your question about the early y- but maybe, anyway, that's okay.
• 27:36
  Tracy: My question was, what was my question?
• 27:38
  Tracy: Yeah,
• 27:38
  Helen: I think it was my, it, was it about my early years or was it more about my my Assyrian roots?
• 27:44
  Helen: Yeah.
• 27:44
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 27:45
  Tracy: I just asked you a little bit about, like, just tell us about that.
• 27:47
  Tracy: Because I actually didn't d- in my naivety-
• 27:51
  Helen: Yes… Tracy: um, I knew of Syrian.
• 27:53
  Helen: Yes.
• 27:54
  Helen: I didn't know Assyrian.
• 27:55
  Helen: Yeah.
• 27:55
  Helen: So I think, I don't think I'm the only one out there that's in that space, but- No, no … so interesting to know so much more.
• 28:03
  Helen: Yeah.
• 28:04
  Tracy: Really, yeah.
• 28:04
  Helen: Yes.
• 28:05
  Helen: Yeah.
• 28:06
  Tracy: And so there's quite a large population in Australia now?
• 28:08
  Helen: Yep.
• 28:09
  Helen: There's a, there's a f- a big population in Melbourne and Sydney.
• 28:13
  Helen: There is a pop- a, a strong population in Germany and in Chicago.
• 28:17
  Helen: Mm-hmm.
• 28:18
  Helen: So, um, yeah, the- we're, we're quite dispersed, but there, there is a, there is a growing population.
• 28:26
  Helen: And e- it is easily confused by Syrians.
• 28:29
  Helen: When, when people hear Assyrian, they don't, they don't kn- know of, of that, um, identity.
• 28:35
  Helen: Yes, yes.
• 28:35
  Helen: You
• 28:35
  Tracy: know?
• 28:35
  Helen: Yeah.
• 28:36
  Helen: It's commonly misunderstood.
• 28:38
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 28:39
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 28:39
  Tracy: Absolutely.
• 28:40
  Tracy: Okay, let me see what else, what other questions have we got.
• 28:42
  Tracy: Well, I'll just start with are there anything, is there anything that you want to share that you feel like… Mm … or maybe there's an example.
• 28:50
  Tracy: Have you got any examples that you feel, without crossing anyone's confidentiality, or something that you've witnessed or seen in the work that you feel like would be a good share?
• 28:59
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 29:00
  Helen: I, I'm trying to think.
• 29:03
  Helen: I guess for me, I keep seeing- So much with the families that I work with.
• 29:12
  Helen: So I'm thinking about, like, a family I've worked with for over a year, and I've been offering family play therapy, so the mother and the child are together.
• 29:22
  Helen: Um, and then sometimes the father is with the child when he can be available.
• 29:27
  Helen: And this little one, who's about six or seven, ha- would often say that she's the protector of the family.
• 29:35
  Helen: Mm. That she would, she would protect her older brother 'cause she's the youngest, and that she protects her mum.
• 29:41
  Helen: And I had been planting seeds for the parents to maybe do some inquiry, you know, into their own, um, family and understand the dynamics of what's going on in the present system.
• 29:55
  Helen: And it, and it'd been, and it'd been a difficulty.
• 29:58
  Helen: Like, so I respected that.
• 30:00
  Helen: I respected that the time wasn't r- you know, it wasn't, they weren't ready.
• 30:03
  Helen: And so it's only really… And it's been a year, and it's just now that the, the mother and the father are ready to kind of look at why, why their daughter just cannot handle, um, any of the boundaries that they set or they just seem to want to, you know, m- move towards the mother and the brother but not the father.
• 30:29
  Helen: And we, we did some work with the mother, and I've started to do some work with the father, and you can see that the mother was also the youngest in her system.
• 30:40
  Helen: Uh, she had an older sister, and her mother had, um, was, was, was, had a disability.
• 30:47
  Helen: I'm not sure what it exactly is, but had a disability that prevented her from really being able to offer the emotional support to her daughter.
• 30:58
  Helen: Yeah.
• 30:58
  Helen: So she then, um, made a decision that she was the one that could only take care of herself.
• 31:06
  Helen: So she stepped into a role of being self-reliant.
• 31:09
  Helen: She stepped in the role of not asking for help and underta- you know, doing lots of things for her youngest daughter.
• 31:16
  Helen: And then she started to develop a lot of, um, symptoms, headaches, tiredness, that later became autoimmune symptoms that she holds.
• 31:26
  Helen: And- Then what happened was she met her husband, and then her husband, um, was the eldest of two, and he grew up in a household where his mother was unwell and often- Mm … unable to get out of bed.
• 31:45
  Helen: So he stepped in to being a carer for- Yeah … his mother.
• 31:51
  Helen: And he had difficulty with his father.
• 31:53
  Helen: So now, so in the present day, you've got the couple who are struggling, and he feels resentful towards his partner because he feels he's the carer towards… And so there's a lot of unexpressed anger and grief- Yeah … in the system.
• 32:10
  Helen: And so their daughter is the one that's going, you know, is expressing the grief and the, and the rage, and is also one saying, "I don't trust any of you that you can hold this. I'm gonna take care. I'm gonna be the protector."
• 32:22
  Tracy: I'm gonna be the, the big one and take care of all of you.
• 32:24
  Helen: And take care of all of you.
• 32:25
  Helen: Yeah.
• 32:26
  Helen: And she has a lot of health difficulties.
• 32:29
  Helen: So there's just this- patterns playing out with-
• 32:33
  Tracy: Yeah… Helen: so the work has begun to s- at- Mm … his mother and his father.
• 32:41
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 32:42
  Tracy: And her looking at her system.
• 32:45
  Tracy: So there's like pieces of that happening.
• 32:47
  Tracy: And it's so interesting, isn't it?
• 32:49
  Tracy: And I'm sure that other modalities see this, the pull of the two systems that come together that are m- potentially there's something mirroring in one, in, in each system- Yes … that br- the, the reason why people end up coming together.
• 33:04
  Helen: Yeah.
• 33:05
  Tracy: Um, and forming that bond, not just love, but sometimes there's that trauma bond or the- That's right parent bond or-
• 33:13
  Helen: Yes, 'cause it's just so familiar.
• 33:14
  Helen: Yeah.
• 33:15
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 33:15
  Helen: Yeah.
• 33:16
  Helen: So familiar.
• 33:17
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 33:18
  Tracy: I think of my first husband, he was very wounded, um, in his journey and, and so was I, so we met there.
• 33:25
  Helen: Mm.
• 33:26
  Tracy: That was- Mm … like pretty firecrackery.
• 33:29
  Helen: That would be the same for me, I would say.
• 33:32
  Helen: My first… well, my, my only first long-term relationship was with my husband, and I remember, like, I was on the airplane to go to you- the UK.
• 33:42
  Helen: I was 24.
• 33:43
  Helen: I just, I bought my one-way ticket to go to London, and I was writing my list of what traits I wanted to find in my future, future relationship, and I wrote all the lists, and on that list was all the opposites of my father.
• 33:59
  Helen: So this is at the time.
• 34:01
  Tracy: Yep.
• 34:02
  Helen: All the opposites of my father and, um, and I was like, "Yep, this is, this is, this is who I want." Um, and then obviously I met my, my ex-partner, and he was the opposite, but in the end, I had attracted my mother as well in him.
• 34:21
  Tracy: Mm.
• 34:21
  Helen: That I hadn't really thought about.
• 34:23
  Helen: The parts of m- my mum that I had, had a lot of pain attached to that.
• 34:29
  Helen: Yeah.
• 34:29
  Helen: And I st- and I could see that that was showing up in our relationship as well, but also naively identifying that whatever I was resisting and judging in my dad did show up.
• 34:43
  Helen: It just continued to show up in this-
• 34:45
  Tracy: What a blessing it
• 34:46
  Helen: was.
• 34:47
  Helen: I… well, yes.
• 34:48
  Helen: Hey.
• 34:48
  Helen: It's been the greatest blessing.
• 34:49
  Helen: Yeah.
• 34:50
  Helen: But frick me, I was like, "Oh my God.
• 34:52
  Helen: How did I get this… I don't under- how did I get this wrong?
• 34:56
  Helen: How did I attract…" You know, all of that beginning stuff that now I go, "That makes total sense to me."
• 35:02
  Tracy: Mm.
• 35:03
  Helen: Yeah.
• 35:03
  Helen: That that had to happen.
• 35:05
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 35:05
  Helen: Yeah, for me.
• 35:06
  Tracy: Great- some of our greatest teachers, hey, they don't always come in the, um, the- shiny, sparkliest of packages or softest Nice.
• 35:15
  Helen: That's
• 35:16
  Tracy: true And sometimes I do, I do this exercise around the gift, you know- Yeah… the gift from the ancestors or the gift from the mother or the father, whatever.
• 35:23
  Helen: Yes.
• 35:24
  Tracy: And I'll say, "Now, remember that not all gifts are sparkly or fluffy."
• 35:29
  Helen: Yeah.
• 35:29
  Tracy: Some of them are a little bit spiky and sharp- Yeah … but they're still gifts.
• 35:34
  Helen: Yes.
• 35:35
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 35:36
  Helen: Yes.
• 35:37
  Helen: When I think about that, when you say that, about the gifts, I, one of them for me that has been both a, a, like, it's been, um, I've seen it be a blessing, but then I've also seen it being a burden for me, and that would be the, the gift of working hard, sacrificing self for other.
• 35:59
  Helen: You know, I s- I see, I s- when I look at my parents and my grandparents who came from nothing-
• 36:06
  Tracy: Yeah… Helen: and for them, it was not enjoyment of life really.
• 36:14
  Tracy: Well, enjoyment would be being with your family, but it was, um, and so much scarcity around that, but for them it was, yeah, y- we're here, we've got food, we have a house, and, and then we just need to work really hard, and they worked really hard, and that's what I f- ta- I did that.
• 36:33
  Tracy: I have done that, and I nearly had chronic fatigue from that.
• 36:38
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 36:39
  Tracy: It's almost a fitting in thing too, isn't it?
• 36:41
  Tracy: Like, I'm just in my… It's that coming into a new culture.
• 36:46
  Helen: Mm-hmm.
• 36:46
  Tracy: Showing your worth or, or this thinking- Yes … that this is the way I show my worth.
• 36:51
  Helen: Yeah.
• 36:51
  Tracy: Um, finding your place.
• 36:54
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 36:56
  Tracy: There's so much in that.
• 36:56
  Tracy: Yes.
• 36:57
  Tracy: So when did your, did your mother's parents come out as well, or just your mum?
• 37:00
  Tracy: They
• 37:00
  Helen: did.
• 37:01
  Helen: No, no, they all came.
• 37:02
  Helen: Okay.
• 37:02
  Helen: They all came.
• 37:02
  Tracy: Oh, wow.
• 37:02
  Tracy: That was beautiful that you ended up with all of your grandparents.
• 37:06
  Helen: Yes.
• 37:06
  Helen: Yeah.
• 37:07
  Helen: I, I was most closest to my dad's grandparents, but yes, m- yeah, I felt lucky to have, have them there.
• 37:14
  Helen: Mm. And they were all out of, with all my family, they all came from, um, businesses.
• 37:21
  Helen: Like, they set up their own-
• 37:23
  Tracy: Okay… Helen: milk bars for them.
• 37:25
  Tracy: So- Yeah … um, that- So a bit of entrepreneurial spirit there.
• 37:29
  Helen: Yes.
• 37:29
  Helen: That's another gift.
• 37:30
  Helen: I'll take that.
• 37:31
  Helen: That was another gift.
• 37:34
  Tracy: Nice
• 37:35
  Helen: Yeah.
• 37:36
  Helen: Yes Nice.
• 37:37
  Helen: But, um, w- what would you say for you, the prickly… Like, what would be one of the non-sparkly gifts?
• 37:44
  Tracy: I remember doing this.
• 37:46
  Tracy: I tend to… Sometimes I'll, I'll give an example of- Yeah … you know,"I'm gonna give you an example of this piece of work." And I remember one time I, like, fully dropped into this experience rather than just being on the top and giving an example.
• 38:00
  Helen: Yeah.
• 38:01
  Tracy: And it was a gift.
• 38:03
  Tracy: It was the mother and the gift, and I turned, and the gift just looked crazy.
• 38:10
  Tracy: Like, this mental energy.
• 38:13
  Helen: Yes.
• 38:13
  Tracy: And I laughed, and laughed, and laughed because there's stories in my family system around, uh, mental illness in my mother's line.
• 38:22
  Tracy: I'm sure they're, they're everywhere, but- Yeah the most recent one that we know of.
• 38:26
  Tracy: And so there'd been a really big resistance to my gifts of my ability to, oh, you know, being a seer from very early age and see, hear, feel, taste, smell.
• 38:38
  Tracy: All of my gifts were, like, ah, full on.
• 38:41
  Helen: Yeah.
• 38:42
  Tracy: That it felt a bit mental Because other people do- weren't experiencing it the way I was.
• 38:47
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 38:47
  Helen: Yes.
• 38:48
  Tracy: And so turned around and saw this, it was like a ball of wiry energy.
• 38:53
  Tracy: It was a person, but it was like that's what I could see.
• 38:56
  Helen: Yeah.
• 38:57
  Tracy: And then I just laughed and laughed, and that shifted the frequency.
• 39:01
  Tracy: And then I was able to turn to the person that was representing my mom and, and nod, "Yeah, okay.
• 39:06
  Tracy: I'm okay with this." Mm. And then slowly make my way to the gift and, and accepting it.
• 39:12
  Helen: Yes.
• 39:13
  Tracy: It was… Yeah, that was probably one of the biggest ones in that moment.
• 39:17
  Helen: Yeah.
• 39:18
  Tracy: Oh, yeah, there's, there's quite a few, but that's probably the one that stands out the
• 39:22
  Helen: most.
• 39:24
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 39:24
  Helen: Mm. It's pretty cool.
• 39:27
  Tracy: So if someone wants to find you and they are…'Cause do you work online?
• 39:33
  Helen: Yes.
• 39:34
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 39:34
  Helen: Yeah, definitely.
• 39:36
  Helen: Um, I have a team of us.
• 39:37
  Helen: So we work online and we work in person.
• 39:41
  Helen: I have Devi Hernandez, who's in Sydney.
• 39:43
  Helen: Mm. Um, she offers constellations and, and somatic work.
• 39:48
  Helen: Um, people can come to Thornbury, Melbourne, um, if they want to have some family therapy or seek online support from anyone.
• 39:58
  Tracy: So The Family Systems Hub.
• 40:00
  Helen: Yeah.
• 40:00
  Helen: The Family Systems Hub.
• 40:01
  Helen: Yeah.
• 40:02
  Tracy: That's fantastic.
• 40:03
  Tracy: And you've got some online programs coming up soon?
• 40:06
  Helen: We have an online, um, systemic course for play therapists about what it means to be a helper.
• 40:15
  Helen: Mm. And so we're offering a six weeks online course that's in sort of middle of July.
• 40:20
  Helen: Um, we have launched our, our hybrid training program, Devi Hernandez and us that we're hosting, and we're at the moment just seeking expressions of interest.
• 40:33
  Helen: So this will be a 12 month, um, family constellations training program.
• 40:37
  Helen: Um, and then we run family constellation workshops in Melbourne, um, in Sydney- In Torquay.
• 40:46
  Helen: Yeah, we're, we're just slowly building.
• 40:48
  Helen: Yeah.
• 40:49
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 40:50
  Helen: Yes.
• 40:51
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 40:52
  Helen: Yes.
• 40:52
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 40:52
  Tracy: It's been such a pleasure to talk with you, just to share- Likewise,
• 40:55
  Helen: Tracey… Tracy: dipping our toes into this, it's such a big pool.
• 41:01
  Helen: Yes.
• 41:02
  Tracy: Um, and like I said, it feels like you're on that leading edge of, with all the other skills that you, that you have in your kit bag or your basket.
• 41:11
  Helen: Mm-hmm.
• 41:12
  Tracy: Um, yeah, I look forward to seeing where it takes you.
• 41:15
  Helen: Oh, thank you, Tracey.
• 41:16
  Helen: Thank you for this conversation.
• 41:18
  Helen: It's been really lovely.
• 41:18
  Helen: You're welcome.
• 41:19
  Helen: Yeah.
• 41:19
  Helen: You're
• 41:20
  Tracy: welcome.
• 41:21
  Tracy: My pleasure.
• 41:22
  Tracy: Thank you for listening.
• 41:24
  Tracy: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 41:28
  Tracy: You'll find me at tracey.cartwright, that's Tracey with no E,.cartwright.
• 41:35
  Tracy: And, or head over to my website, traceycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
• 41:44
  Tracy: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it