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Beside Every Calling | Episode 5 : Family & Ministry · Beside Every Calling

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop where your kids played Let's Baptized in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, friends.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Beside Every Calling, a safe space for those married to ministry leaders where identity is formed beside the calling and not lost within it.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Debbie and I'm Kia.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I think we need to talk about families today.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Ministry.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: I love the idea because I have four humans that God has blessed our family with.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think it's one of the struggles in ministry.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: How do you balance all of it?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think each season of my kids' life, it looked a little different.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so maybe we go back and talk about your kid, your son, and starting with infant, and then we'll move our way up the ladder to now we're both empty nesters and switching from parenting to coaching, just being friends, walking beside them.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: So well, sure.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: So uh interestingly enough, my son was born on December 23rd and uh in a hospital, um, and we brought him home on Christmas Day.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I'm this is not from a heart of stone or anything like that, but we had no visitors from our church.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, our family was there and unka stuff, but it's just one thing I remember.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: But it was a beautiful time and um we were thankful.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say when he was a little infant, we were in uh a smaller church, leading a smaller church.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so Sam would preach, I would play the piano, uh, Sam and I would do the special song.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then after everything was done, I left and would do the nursery and then come back and play this the whatever the song was for the altar call or for the the ending song or whatever, have somebody else juggle with the little babies or whatever, which were just a couple of them at the time.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And Jill, I'm very impressed for those listening that are obviously just getting to know us.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Jill is the pastor's wife.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: I just heard that she plays the piano.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: I am a four-fingered Nelly, is what you call that piano.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we barely got it done, but we did.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the Lord did bring us a beautiful piano player later in our our years there.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I graciously.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: I have none of those skills.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm at home.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm at home.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Carry on.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry to interrupt.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I say all that because I had to get uh a small infant ready, all of his stuff, and make sure all of my stuff, what I was doing.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, by the way, Sam and I also tag teamed on uh teaching the adult Sunday school class, the one adult Sunday school class that we had at the time.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, all of this was happening while he was born and all the way through uh four years old, really, is what all of this was happening at that church at that time.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um it was a lot.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: It was a lot.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was um we did it.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: God gave us grace, God gave us strength for sure.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: The church people were sweet, they were they loved Ross.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: They just really took him under their wings and just loved on him, and we were gracious for that.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: I look back and and I I'm blessed by those years.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how I made it through those years, but we we made it.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: So when Ross was born, you were already senior pastors.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, because I I do think it is completely different when you're a staff on the street spouse versus the senior pastor, because we have four children, three boys and a girl.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And Caleb was also born in December, and we were on staff, and Scott was the college pastor.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the church was so gracious and good to us and had a shower, and every church God has provided that family that somehow loves your kids so much.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and my first thing, if you don't have that, pray God brings that family, right?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I just think when we were staff and then our second church, then we had well, all four were born when Scott was a staff pastor because he was let me think he was a youth pastor, a college pastor, a worship leader, and then a senior pastor.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it was different, the expectations.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember when he was a staff pastor and Sophie was born.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: We were in Oklahoma City, and I was driving to church Sunday morning, and the kids are in there four car seats behind me, and I'll never forget this Sunday morning.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I was frazzled because I don't know about you, but you had to get to church by yourself.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Your husband never helped you because he was there at the crack of dawn and you came later.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I pulled in, I was getting ready to turn my blinker was on, and I'll all this stuff I felt on the back of my head, and Noah had thrown up all over the back of me.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then it made Caleb throw up because he saw Noah throw up.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I pulled into the church parking lot and I was just gonna open the band just to clean them off and make sure they're okay.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And this is sweet greeter came out and said, Let me help you get the kids out.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, We're not staying.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I just remember feeling so alone in that parenting season, but knowing the best thing to do was just go home, take care of sick kids, and obviously shower because we smelled bad, we looked bad.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that I remember that's the first time I felt lonely in my parenting and juggling ministry because Scott wasn't there to help me and getting four vomiting.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, two were throwing up, four kids out of the van and taking care of them was a big deal.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think finding that balance and Scott laughed and was fine.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: We both laughed that I was, I don't remember why I was supposed to be there, but it was a big Sunday.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was just like, no, my family has to trump this and they're sick and we're going home.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we so uh I know you had to go separate because Scott was there early.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, at some times in our life we only had one car.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we got up early, and all three of us were on Sam's time.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that wasn't so bad uh necessarily uh because I needed to be there too to get things ready or whatever.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: But so Ross had to come along with us, whatever.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: So he he would do that, he would do that a lot most of his life.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: We would just get up and and we were all there until he got his driver's license, and then you know he uh later.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Went later, or sometimes he went earlier because he was playing in the band and he had to be earlier than some of us.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that was really interesting.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: But the young moms out there, I do have a couple tips of things that really worked well for us because if you have more than one child, I think it becomes a little more difficult because I always had and Scott never went with me to church in the mornings.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it sounds like Sam was really better Christian back then.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, we just make it work.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: Jill was, and she, but Scott would be like, Don't bring all four kids this early.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I had come up with a system that really worked for me.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Tell everybody this.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: I love this.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: So my one was no one knows your kids are gonna look crazy in the morning anyway.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the boys, especially, I would shower Saturday night, put them in their church clothes.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: So they went to bed in their church clothes, and then I would pop tarts and their favorite drink, which back in the day were Capri Suns.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if they still make them anymore, but I would leave them in their car seats and tell everyone when we're all ready, we get to go sit in our car seat and eat their fate, and they only got them on Sundays, pop tarts and caprices.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had it ready and I got all of them ready except for the baby that you would have to, you know, freshen up in the morning.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because also the key to having the nursery staff love your children is baby magic.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely smells the best, smells so good.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, ladies, you want to make sure your kids smell the best, even that toddler, a bigger, just wipe it on them, and then the Sunday school teachers love them.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's a little don't don't tell everyone your trick, but it does actually help.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I did that, and then the kids got older, and I even remember when Scott was a senior pastor in Pasadena, the older two love Starbucks and the young two loved the bagel shop.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I would tell them if there's no arguing on the way to church, we will stop at both of these places and we will all five be really happy.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we have bagels and coffee, and that was our huge Sunday successful treat.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do think coming up with some system that works for your family because your kids are there early, and we were always the last family to leave the church.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and not rewarding in a sense, but making it special for them and saying, man, thank you for being a part of the ministry team.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we did make sure it was always, we joked it was a six-pack, all six of us.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: My kids could still set up a party within 20 minutes for 50 to 100 people like that.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I think growing up in a pastor's home is a unique space and it does need to be celebrated.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you need to thank them because it is harder than most people, right?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I remember Sophie coming and crying because one time someone told her, Well, your dad's the pastor.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: How do you not have all this memorized?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: And she at that moment she has a little bit of my sass, and she looked at him and said, Well, your dad's a surgeon.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Can you operate on people?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: But it is people do have expectations of their spirituality at a really young age.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And as you know, I didn't grow up in the church.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I, when our kids were the first senior pastor, it was in Texas, and I still remember this lady, and it was back in the day of Pokemon cards.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: And Caleb was probably reading a Pokemon book.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: It was a Wednesday night at church.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: I just totally remember this whole conversation with this lady, and she came up to me and told me my kids needed to stop reading Pokemon.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and Caleb was standing there, which was the awkward part.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And they they were gonna grow up and not love Jesus because I was letting them read this book and they were not getting their missionary books done each month.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember looking at her and saying her name and saying, My kids are never reading your missionary books.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And my son is absolutely going to, he knows Jesus now and he's behaving more Christian than you are.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that was like the sastiest I've ever been in church.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: But that might be there, yeah.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: I saw Caleb's face and little tears were coming down his cheeks when she said he was.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, you just crushed his spirit.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you can think he doesn't love Jesus because he's not reading missionary books and he is reading this other book that Scott and I, you know, it was controversial a little, but and so we did have a talk at home about hey, let's not carry that book to church.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I still, this is so bad, Joel.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And especially in our denomination, I shouldn't confess this.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: My kid never my kids never read missionary books because of that lady.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because it represented so much legalism to me.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And she made my son cry feeling like he wasn't Christian because he wasn't reading the right thing.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so to young moms listening to us, or husband or spouses of whichever you are, probably the most are women listening to us.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would say protect your kids and let them know what you feel is okay.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, we had right and wrong in our home.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: But Scott and I already told Caleb those, it was his he liked it.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he's a great reader.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And today he's a pastor of a church start in Boise, Idaho.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, and he teaches Bible at a Christian school.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think those legalistic, like almost like check mark things that people are looking for, this mental chart that everybody's checking off or whatever, that is just that is not Jesus.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: That is, I mean, it's some of it might be good things to do, but it doesn't mean that we have to do those kind of things.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of those was, you know, when we were young pastor wives, uh, Debbie, it was the thing to kind of dress up on Sunday, right?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And your kids look like it was almost Easter every Sunday, like or just look nice, you know, whatever.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember uh fighting that in my head uh about Ross was, you know, I always laid out these cute little outfits for him, just whatever.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And he looked good.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we looked good going to church.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: But then there came a time in his preteen years where it was like he didn't want to wear what I laid out, which that's that's a thing, right?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's and Sam and I decided we would rather him be at church in clothes, in something, uh, than not be at church.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we just said, you know what, just put some clothes on today.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we don't care, you go pick it out.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And he I remember his face like, what?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I don't even care if it matches.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just be in the car at this time, you know.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're we we just went, let's go to church.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's your mission field.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the people you're discipling, and don't disciple them for the rules of the church of reading the missionary books or you have to look this way or whatever.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: They just let them be a part, you know, let them love them into the community.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And um, that really that worked for us.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I was really glad that we decided to do that when other families were still like kind of fighting the fight.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm not that I'm not gonna have the battle over that.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: We'll have the battle over over other things, but we're not gonna have the battle of what your clothes are.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: But in ministry, you do need to definitely think about what's your personality, and then like if you have multiple children like we did, they're all different personalities.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I talked about Caleb and he was more serious and would get dressed up, but then we had our third son, Jonah, who's my free little spirit, and he loved comfort.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And truly, when he was two and a half, he started not letting wanting me to put shoes on him, and he wore rain boots.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not exaggerating for over a year of his life when we actually bought 11 separate rain boots that were just his Sunday shoes, which I didn't watch to this day thinking about, but it was just all and looking back, it was all independence, right?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: He could put things on himself, and his brothers can do everything their self, and so I'm doing my thing.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and for a year of his life, I let him wear rain boots every single day, everywhere we went, because he could do it himself.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think considering your kid's personality and taking into your own personality, like in junior high, you were there, because each season definitely takes on a new, they need not a different mom, but a different expectation of them within that context.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know I thought they were really hard when they were littles, because again, I had to get them there, do everything myself.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then once they got a little older, it was the youth group thing.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then on Wednesday nights, we had to be there.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Scott was already at church early, usually would counsel people before, and I taught on Wednesday nights, um, women's ministry for a lot of years, but I would make sure our kids they loved in and out, and we would only do that on Wednesday night.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: And Wednesday night was our in and out night, and then the kids would be thrilled about going to church, and of course they were there before anyone else, and they were the very last people to leave this group.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you have to do what's right for your family, and every family is different.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I just want to address the issue of uh just having one child, because you know, some of the people listening might uh be in that same boat.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I got pregnant incredibly quick.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that when we thought we were gonna try and we're like, oh my word, I'm gonna have 20 kids, I better watch this, you know, whatever.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, so I got pregnant incredibly quick, had Ross and all that, and never got pregnant again.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And um we uh for many years, uh we were, let me just say, uh not wealthy enough to go figure things out uh at this time, at this stage in our ministry world and in our life and everything.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we just kept going on.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, uh when Ross was 12, uh, we finally decided, you know, this is us.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: This is us.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is let's this is not exactly what I thought would be.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um but this is us, so sorry.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh but um I say that because you know your your pastor's spouse, whoever he or she is, they're carrying stuff.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um that you don't know.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't you know, I never talked about it with anybody.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you do get the pressure of, oh, when's the next one coming along?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like in a stuff.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, yes.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: But uh it's all okay.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I'm crying.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, I wouldn't know how sensitive it was unless we had, you know, our story.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean our we've had three pregnancy losses that have been huge and one struggling still.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that pain, Joe, I'm so sorry.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's so deep.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't know how real because I didn't experience it.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: But now my kids and even when Scott preaches now, when people with ladies start crying, I'll go hug them because I'm like, oh my land, I know a tiny bit of that pain that she's feeling now.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for sharing.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And sure, and I just say that because there's probably somebody out there that might be in the same boat.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you are, uh the Lord is good.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I look back at our life and all the things that he's asked us to do.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um I'm just so thankful that we're uh we're a team of three, you know, and now we're a team of four.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: He's got a wonderful life.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's okay.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: The family unit can be strong, it can be healthy, it can be everything God intends it to be, even if it's smaller than you thought it was going to be.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: So or to our spouses also who are struggling and have none.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's exactly right.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: We feel your pain, and and there is something in that, and I hope you will find someone to share with, to pray with, to process with.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And there's nothing wrong with counseling.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: I am the huge, I will shout from the heavens, please get find a print and therapy.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's what saved me in my as we share from you know, each season of life.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I've had a season where I really needed professional help to get through it.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say don't be afraid to do that.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And even with your kids, like if you're struggling and your kids you feel like are out of control or your marriage, go to help.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're part of our denomination, we're a lot of help at the district level from financially getting you help.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, contact your DS's spouse or your DS directly and see financially, don't stop because of funds.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there are Christian organizations out there that will help you.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the total different subject, but Sam and I both went to counseling at a season in our ministry where we were just crazy hurt and just got hurt so deeply that we needed someone else other than each other to talk to, you know, kind of thing.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the best decision we ever made.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: I went to a Christian counselor um and could see it from a perspective without our emotions and gave us tools to work through and to how to and it it I just tell people don't don't be afraid of counseling.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody needs help sometimes.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we did.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: We did.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it was it was later on in our ministry too.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was just like like I wasn't we weren't expecting what had happened, and we weren't expecting that hurt.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: There was no preparation for it, and it just came out of the blue and it just about crushed us.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we just didn't know what to do.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm telling you, counseling is a beautiful ministry uh that can help you.
• 19:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And for your children also, because we had a child that I really needed to help get some therapy, yeah, um, some stuff had happened.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was, you know, it was so hard.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: And this person did not want to go.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember saying, It's okay.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And literally the first two sessions, I sat outside the therapist room and they refused to talk to the therapist.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, it's okay, you don't have to.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna keep paying her and we're coming back.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And on it took three times, and we sat, I sat out there for 50 minutes and forced them to come in.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so don't be afraid of that either.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because parenting, getting back on the parenting piece, too, it is so hard, depending on your some are easy.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like I look at people that have situations, and if I so Scott and I always say we didn't have one because we would have judged people because Caleb was that child that just wanted to do what was right.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: We joked that you feed him, water him, and he grew up into a great human, like he almost wanted, and this we had the rest, and that they were so different, yeah.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and their personalities don't I people say, Well, I parented all four the same.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, that might be the problem.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: If you like, I I have four personalities.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, one of them I could just look at and say, I can't, I'm so disappointed in that.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And they would be like, I'm sorry.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the other one say, I don't know what you're talking about, mom.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't do that, and lie right to my police.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to say, on the whole parenting, don't forget that sometimes in counseling it helps the kids too, because each season is so different, and especially when they're older, yeah, that stuff starts to come out.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And your goal is to make sure they know Jesus and they love Jesus and they're part of the family.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they feel like the family trumps ministry.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, at least that was one for me.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yes, I mean, somebody has to be there for the family.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: If the Lord gives you those blessings, uh, you you are to take care of those blessings and and protect and guide and everything else.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was just gonna say um one thing that we noticed in Ross right away when he was probably in elementary school, he wanted to learn to play the guitar.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so we found a guitar somewhere, and my husband plays the guitar, but he plays by ear.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: So Sam taught him, I don't know, a couple songs on the guitar uh to begin with.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And he learned those.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then we thought, you know, we probably better get him some guitar lessons.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we did that, and that helped.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so and he just kind of This this snowball thing just happened.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And what happened on the church side and ministry side was there was a youth band that he was asked to play, be a part of at one of our churches, which was just the beginning.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was going to another church.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then he would learn all of the lighting and all of the sound and all of the uh MDing and all of the playing.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Then he would lead singing and then he would do all this other stuff.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then he went to Mount Vernon and played on, you know, just different bands there.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I say this to say, no matter what your child's interest is, pay attention to that.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is and feed it.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I've bought so many guitar strings and picks and even guitars, I can't even tell you.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but every penny of that was invested, uh, not only for him, but for he to keep him attached to church in some way.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the Lord just took that and ran with it.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And um and we so whatever their interest is, you know, yes, it can be there, can you can help them somehow uh be connected to church if if if they have done like that.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And celebrate the differences.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think that was always important for us because thinking back, our son Noah is the worship leader at a university now in the chaplain's office.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but the time I remember hearing him from seventh grade on, and Scott and I, you know, those band concerts at the school, yeah, it truly was all we could do not to laugh out loud because it was so horrific.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: It was the school's first year having a band, and Opa was a part of it.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then he started worship leading and doing other things at schools, and then in high school he was part of the worship team, and I watched that, but then even Sophie, from the time she was four, we joked.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: She would make me buy four different types of band-aids, and she would put one because each of her brothers were different, and she wanted just in case they got hurt.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: She would have their band-aid in her purse, yeah, and she's a nurse now.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think looking back on that, she was always been taking care of people and wanting to make sure her four brothers were okay.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um Scott and I laughed.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: She never asked what band-aid we wanted, but the four she just wanted to look for each brother and herself.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I think take that's so good on what are their personalities and plugging them in and making sure they feel a part of the church.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: And not only church, but for us also, home had to be a safe place.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like an older mentor.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if you don't have one, get a mentor.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Find someone who has a family like you would like yours to look like, and then ask her to meet with you or him.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what did you do right and what did you do wrong?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I've always done that.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when we were in Oklahoma, I remember there were these three brothers at Bethany First Church.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I loved how these older guys were all friends and fun.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I would ask him, I even hired him to redo our table, one of the brothers.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, tell me how what did your mom do and not do?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say our three boys are still really good friends because I did a lot of the things he told me that connected him with his brothers.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's neat.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then I had one rule just in our house from watching ministry and from Scott grew up in the church.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I didn't.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he had several friends that I felt like I switched places with as adults, like they wanted nothing to do with the church.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And they would tell me stories of being really sick, and both parents still went ahead and went to church and left them and called some someone they didn't even know to come take care of them while they're throwing up with the fever.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't want to, I wanted them to know dad and I value you more than ministry because you're our first ministry.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: But also I wanted home to be a safe space.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And a lady named Lafrey Gillaland, um, back in the day, she really is who taught me what prayer life, along with my Aunt Loretta, what it should look like and how real it should be.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: And she taught me how to walk in every room of our house and in every kid's room, praying their bed would be a place of rest and peace.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: But everyone that comes in would feel safe in this space.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so love in this space.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: I do that to this day.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I would do that.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I always wanted all six of us to know when you walk in that front door, there's not going to be anyone in our home that you that isn't kind and accepting to you.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we in Dallas, we had a situation where Caleb played with this one little boy who did not like Jonah.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know why.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And his name was Michael.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And finally, I said, Michael, you have to in our home, we have a rule, you have to be kind to everyone, or you can't play with anyone.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he did not like Jonah.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so he told his mom, Miss Debbie won't let me come to our house anymore.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: So Caleb has to come to our house.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: And they literally started doing that.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: And he won't, his mom is still one of my good friends.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And she gave me his paper, but he wrote a paper that Mrs.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Daniels is a dictator.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it would, and I would laugh.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I needed Jonah to know if none of us are gonna have a friend in this house that's not nice to all of you.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And this day, our home is still that that you know.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: All right, one of our daughter-in-laws, um, probably it's been several months ago, she was just having a rough day and said, Is it okay if I come over and have a nap in the guest room?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, 1000%.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's like representing that this space does feel safe to all 10 of us now.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I just think that's another key.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: You want your home to be safe.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: I know a lot of people entertain a lot and have people from church who don't have anywhere to go on Thanksgiving, and you may have done that.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: We never did because I wanted Scott to be fully just dad on the health of our kids because they had to share him so much with the church that these were our spaces.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that Scott's a different person, but people expect a pastor, he can't just put on his sweats and joke around with them the way he does when it's just us, right?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say keep your home.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: One thing we did, and I still try to do to this day, is our home is a fun, safe space.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it starts with prayer.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and I think through the years that our kids have always loved coming home.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And Scott and I travel all the time now.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll still joke that I laugh that Sophie will text me and say, Noah just came home and took groceries and dad's shirt.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, perfect.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: We share it with those, those are our humans that we're gonna share everything we have with.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I want them to know that because I do think it also represents God in a way, which seems kind of strange, but he's gonna take care of you and show up no matter where you are, and you're always welcome, no matter how hurt you are, at his table.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree with that a hundred percent.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: So let me ask you this, Divi.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've talked about emphasis and elementary, maybe in a little bit of high school years.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about these young adult years.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about the empty nester years.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's fresh, more fresh to us on this end.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And somebody might be listening and um might be in a scenario where uh their empty nester kids have married and they're maybe maybe they're near them, and now God is calling them across the country, you know, somewhere else.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um what how you know, where would you I don't even know.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's lots of scenarios going on with young men.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and there's just thinking about the ministry world.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I and I hear we were just with a group of DSs and sitting around a table with several who would there's children are all over the country and all over the world, truly.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's several.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, I feel like the call for me and Scott has been one where we've had to give up community completely because we travel so much to be part of the global church.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And truly, one gift for me is all four of our adult kids live within 30 miles, and that is just a gift that I don't take for granted because I remember in South America we were with um or she's a FSC's wife, a field strategy coordinator.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: She just talks to her grandbaby on the cell phone.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: So she says, I'm a cell phone, I'm a FaceTime grandma.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And my heart just hurt for her, even though she's found the best possible scenario in it.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's amazing the grace God has given her.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And she was showing me all these creative ways how she connects now with her family because she's in South America, but her kids actually live here in Florida.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we moved away.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't across the world.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it was 12 hours, which seemed like 12 years away.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: But um, when we lived in Kansas City and he was still in Ohio, um, we decided that at least every three months we'd lay our eyes on each other, whether we're going to see him or if he was coming out to see us, or just how whatever that looked like, at least every three months.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we we tried to set the time to uh see him uh before we leave to the from the next time, you know, to say, okay, what's let's plan this whole next time to see each other.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that was Sam's idea, and it actually was a beautiful idea.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: It really helped my heart.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um course we text almost every day, you know, or or how we call a lot.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thankful for technology because you know, when I was his age, we didn't have that.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh yeah, so the every three months was a beautiful thing, something to look forward to.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think that was that was about the only way we made it through, you know.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: We wish it was even more, and sometimes it did.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: We did do more, and sometimes there was a longer stretch, you know, when COVID all put us down or whatever, that was a little bit of a longer stretch for us.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, I think there's a lot of families where they're all over and they're trying to figure it out.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they technology is really a beautiful blessing for those folks that find themselves in that case.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: I still recommend find someone who you know their kids live far away, but you love their relationship with their kids and ask what how did you do this?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, how did you cultivate this?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, the same if you I'm sure there are spouses listening that have really broken relationships with their adult kids.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And find some who have had the broken and are on a healthy side now, yeah, and ask, well, what did you do?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's so many different ways to connect online in different groups of people too.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's always another way too.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: But hopefully, I know some of those things are really painful and people don't want to talk about.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: But if you can find someone that will share, um, I know back in past, you know, we had a gal named Judy, and I still love her.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you look at her and everyone thought she's the classiest, most put together.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Her world has to be perfect.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And she had a season where her adult son didn't want anything to do with her, didn't talk to her.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: And when people would hear that, they would kind of gasp, like, oh my and her heart like was not broken but crushed.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: And she would share how Pastor Green had helped her through some of these things.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And when we left, it was still pieces were still broken, but healing has happened.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it is those are hard spaces.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think finding people who understand that space is so important.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Don't don't walk life alone.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's when we come finding your people, uh, you know, and and just be open with them.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes sometimes in ministry, I I would say most of the time in ministry, there was very few times that my people were in my church.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they I mean, I fell aship with tons of people.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: I love them all, absolutely had a great time.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: But there's nothing like finding people that you don't have to explain your life to.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to explain the pressure of ministry to.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: You don't you can just walk in.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like your AA group, you know, like everybody gets it.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody understands why you're in the room.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: And when you find those people, just dive in, be a part.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: And those those spouses that maybe look around who's living a life like you, or maybe you want to encourage another one or something, but find your people because it is it is desperate, it is needed, it is for your heart and soul, and God made us to be in community.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast, like for some people, we might be their thing.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say, put us in your tool belt, your ministry tool belt, let us help you walk this journey.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: For some people, they're like, those two ladies are crazy, they don't even know what they're you are right.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: We just living it up, and we're not your thing.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you go find your people, and that's okay.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I've always tried to find someone ahead of me, like even Scott and I, we have 10 years approximately left in ministry till we can retire.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you ever retire from ministry, at least we won't, but we'll retire from having to show up regularly and be kind of like we can choose in the next part.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but so now I'm looking at people who I watch their lives and they're retired really well, like I how I want us to and are connected with their kids.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of my favorite, I have three, but one of them lives here in Idaho with us, and her name's Doris.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: I love her relationship with her kids, and some of it's been a struggle.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I have asked her really hard, great questions.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: And almost every time I come home, I try to get together with her.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I also love how they've retired.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like she has family time, but just her and Mark time.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I mean, what is that?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: How do you do that, Doris?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then financially, how what should Scott and I be doing right now to prepare for that?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you don't, these aren't things you just know.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think finding those mentors, and then I try to also mentor people behind me.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just think trying to figure out what are the things God's done in our life that we can share and the things that you need help on.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I really want to be a good mother-in-law.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I at this season of empty nesting, this is new for me, but just figuring out what does that look like and how, and so I'm finding ladies that I love to look at, I look at their life from afar and then I meet with them.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I've been shocked, like the pieces that I'm like, oh, that that won't work for me because that's not my personality.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Anything else you want to throw into this conversation, Joe?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: I would just say anybody that's listening, that wherever you find yourself in in in ministry and with family, with one, with four, with ten, with more, whatever, uh you're not alone in this and uh you're doing better than you know.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining us, friends, on this conversation.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: And if you know of a ministry spouse that you think this would be helpful to, please share it with them.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because Jill and I are just starting out and trying to figure out how we can help the most people we can.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so we started beside every calling.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: So please like us on whatever platform you're listening to this.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have any ideas, reach out to us because we would love to have topics and interview people in future sessions.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: So talk to you later, Jill.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: If this conversation felt a little too familiar, like, were they sitting in my living room this week familiar?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's your sign.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take 30 seconds and leave us a review?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.