Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #051 Jason Flom with Malcolm Alexander

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#051 Jason Flom with Malcolm Alexander · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If
0:05
Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.
0:08
Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.
0:13
Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,
0:18
Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have
0:21
Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but
0:24
Speaker 2: they're breaking the lord.
0:27
Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty
0:30
Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then
0:32
Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be
0:34
Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the
0:37
Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.
0:39
Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.
0:44
Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something
0:46
Speaker 2: happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said,
0:49
Speaker 2: that could never happen to me, but.
0:52
Speaker 4: They can.
0:57
Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
1:16
Speaker 3: Jason Flamm. Today, I have a truly extraordinary guest, a
1:23
Speaker 3: gentleman named Malcolm Alexander, who was released from prison three
1:27
Speaker 3: weeks ago after serving almost thirty eight years for a
1:30
Speaker 3: crime he did not commit.
1:32
Speaker 5: Louisiana. Inmate is a freeman this afternoon, after he was
1:36
Speaker 5: clear of a rape that happened back in nineteen seventy nine,
1:39
Speaker 5: a state judge throughout a fifty eight year old and
1:41
Speaker 5: Malcolm Alexander's conviction after defense attorneys argue that Alexander's trial
1:46
Speaker 5: lawyer failed to point out the victim has been doubtful
1:49
Speaker 5: when she identified him. Alexander spent thirty eight years at
1:52
Speaker 5: Angola for the crime.
1:55
Speaker 3: Malcolm, welcome to the show, thank you, And with him
1:58
Speaker 3: today is his son, Malcolm Junior, who is forty years old.
2:03
Speaker 3: He was two at the time that his father was
2:07
Speaker 3: sent away. So Malcolm Junior, welcome to Ron for Conviction.
2:11
Speaker 3: Thank you, and we have a return visit from one
2:15
Speaker 3: of Malcolm's extraordinary lawyers at the Innocence Project, Vanessa Popkin,
2:19
Speaker 3: who is the director of post conviction Litigation. Vanessa, welcome back,
2:24
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
2:25
Speaker 6: Great to be here.
2:27
Speaker 3: So, Malcolm, I want to go back to the beginning,
2:30
Speaker 3: before this whole insane saga started. Let's go back to
2:37
Speaker 3: where you grew up and how you grew up and
2:39
Speaker 3: what your life was like as a child as a
2:41
Speaker 3: young man.
2:43
Speaker 7: Well, very simple, sir, played sports. I enjoyed biking, done
2:48
Speaker 7: a lot of fishing.
2:50
Speaker 3: What kind of sports I mean You're a pretty big guy,
2:52
Speaker 3: look like you might to play some football.
2:53
Speaker 7: Yes, sir, he played a lot of football. Came up
2:56
Speaker 7: from junior high to high playing football, went to Jo
2:59
Speaker 7: and Eric Worley Middle School, and I left from Worley
3:02
Speaker 7: Middle School, went to West Jefferson High. Left from West
3:08
Speaker 7: Jefferson High, went to Joe and Eric. And after that,
3:11
Speaker 7: I guess, said, I just went into the working world.
3:15
Speaker 3: What were you working at?
3:17
Speaker 7: Well, I had separate jobs. It was like once I
3:20
Speaker 7: worked for International Tank Terminal, I worked for a fleet company.
3:26
Speaker 7: I worked for Golf Central Railroad.
3:31
Speaker 3: There's a lot of jobs for a guy who was
3:32
Speaker 3: still just a teenager really at the time. Right, you
3:35
Speaker 3: had your son, Malcolm, who's sitting here at Malcolm Junior
3:38
Speaker 3: sitting here with you. Know you had him when you
3:39
Speaker 3: were very young.
3:40
Speaker 7: Yes, sir, I had him actually when I was still
3:43
Speaker 7: in uh high school. And that's the kind of the
3:47
Speaker 7: reason why I had all the job because I was
3:49
Speaker 7: playing football plus working at the same time.
3:53
Speaker 3: Right, So you had a very busy life. We had
3:54
Speaker 3: a good life, yes, sir, And you got a great
3:57
Speaker 3: son out of it, who's now a man, thank you.
4:00
Speaker 3: Obviously grew up without his father and of course. Now
4:03
Speaker 3: I got to just get this out. You have a grandson, Malcolm.
4:05
Speaker 7: The third, Yes, sir, when he is twenty.
4:09
Speaker 3: It's amazing. Your grandson is twenty, which is the same
4:12
Speaker 3: age that you were.
4:13
Speaker 7: When I got your calcerators when you were locked up.
4:16
Speaker 3: It's unbelievable. I mean, that really gives a sense of
4:20
Speaker 3: the timeline and going back when we were talking nineteen
4:23
Speaker 3: eighty like who is president? When you were locked up?
4:26
Speaker 7: Ooh, I think we were doing could a time.
4:29
Speaker 3: Jimmy Carter was the president. Wow, that does give a
4:32
Speaker 3: sense of how long ago it really was. So how
4:38
Speaker 3: did this happen? And let me turn to Vanessa for
4:40
Speaker 3: a second. Can you take us through how this began
4:44
Speaker 3: and why it was allowed to continue when there were
4:47
Speaker 3: so many obvious signs that he wasn't the guy?
4:51
Speaker 6: Sure.
4:52
Speaker 8: In nineteen seventy nine, a woman was minding an antique
4:56
Speaker 8: shop that she had just opened when a black man
4:59
Speaker 8: that she had never seen before came into the store
5:02
Speaker 8: and basically attacked her from behind at gunpoint. Took her
5:06
Speaker 8: into a small bathroom in the back of the store,
5:09
Speaker 8: where he sexually assaulted her twice and then fled.
5:13
Speaker 3: And this was the rape of a brutal rape of
5:16
Speaker 3: a white woman by a black mail in the Deep
5:19
Speaker 3: South in nineteen seventy nine. And we'll get into the
5:23
Speaker 3: fact that there was a cross racial identification or misidentification,
5:26
Speaker 3: which we know is a huge problem because scientific study
5:30
Speaker 3: after study have proven that our memories are totally fallible.
5:34
Speaker 3: In this case, the identification was made four and a
5:36
Speaker 3: half months after the crime, right, and good luck try
5:39
Speaker 3: to remember what you were doing four and a half
5:41
Speaker 3: months ago or any details of that. But then when
5:43
Speaker 3: it's a cross racial identification, of course the odds of
5:47
Speaker 3: a correct result go down dramatically. And this had all
5:51
Speaker 3: of those factors, right, that's right.
5:54
Speaker 8: The victim in this case was attacked in an antique
5:57
Speaker 8: store that she had just opened. It was early in
5:59
Speaker 8: the day, and a man came in with a gun.
6:03
Speaker 8: Most of the attack happened from behind, and it was
6:05
Speaker 8: at gunpoint. We know weapon focus is also a big
6:08
Speaker 8: issue in misidentifications because when a crime happens with the weapon,
6:13
Speaker 8: people tend to look at the weapon, not the person
6:15
Speaker 8: who's holding the weapon, and really be focused on what's
6:18
Speaker 8: happening there. So the assailant came into the store armed
6:21
Speaker 8: and the victim was held at gunpoint throughout the entire attack,
6:26
Speaker 8: and then the perpetrator fled, so she had a very
6:29
Speaker 8: limited opportunity to see the person who did this, and
6:33
Speaker 8: over four months went by with no identification made or
6:37
Speaker 8: no suspect in the case. Unfortunately, in March of nineteen eighty,
6:43
Speaker 8: Malcolm Alexander had a consensual relationship with a white woman
6:48
Speaker 8: and it turned out that she was a sex worker
6:51
Speaker 8: and wanted money from him, and when he didn't give
6:54
Speaker 8: her the money, she made a false allegation of rape,
6:58
Speaker 8: and the.
6:58
Speaker 3: Charge was immediately smith. It was not pursued at all.
7:01
Speaker 8: Absolutely the police found no cooperation, they didn't pursue it.
7:06
Speaker 8: But the lead officer who responded to that case had
7:11
Speaker 8: also been the lead officer on the nineteen seventy nine
7:14
Speaker 8: rape in the antique store, and so when Malcolm Alexander
7:19
Speaker 8: came in and told police exactly what happened and made
7:21
Speaker 8: a statement, the officer said, hmm, and this is in
7:24
Speaker 8: the reports. You know, there was something about him that
7:27
Speaker 8: reminded him of the previous incident that by now had
7:30
Speaker 8: been unsolved for you know, just about four months from
7:33
Speaker 8: our take. The only thing that's similar between both incidents
7:37
Speaker 8: is that the victim was white.
7:38
Speaker 6: Otherwise they were completely different, and.
7:40
Speaker 3: The perpetrator was black. Correct, Well, there was no perpetrator
7:43
Speaker 3: in the ones. In both cases it was a sexual event,
7:46
Speaker 3: what do you want to call it, between a black
7:48
Speaker 3: male and a white woman. But other than that, there
7:50
Speaker 3: is one was consensual, one was not. There's no similarity.
7:54
Speaker 3: That was just a terrible coincidence that happened to put
7:57
Speaker 3: Malcolm in the crosshairs of the right.
8:00
Speaker 8: I guess coincidence or racism on the part of the
8:03
Speaker 8: investigating officer both both and once he was put into
8:08
Speaker 8: the photo ray, then the factors that you were discussing
8:11
Speaker 8: before kick in, and you know, this is nineteen eighty
8:14
Speaker 8: and the lead detective is administering the photo ray, which
8:18
Speaker 8: we know today by best practices, is not how it
8:21
Speaker 8: should be done. That should be a blind lineup where
8:23
Speaker 8: the person conducting the array doesn't know who the suspect is,
8:26
Speaker 8: so they can't intentionally or unintentionally convey cues to the
8:30
Speaker 8: eyewitness as to who to pick. But the victim, she
8:33
Speaker 8: picked him out tentatively and said she wanted to see
8:36
Speaker 8: him again in person. So three days later they did
8:39
Speaker 8: an in person lineup, and Malcolm was the only person
8:42
Speaker 8: from the photo or ray who was repeated in the
8:44
Speaker 8: in person lineup.
8:46
Speaker 3: Right, which again is going to be a very suggestive protocol. Malcolm,
8:50
Speaker 3: what was going on in your head? Because here you
8:53
Speaker 3: are one day, you're working on several jobs, you're playing sports,
8:57
Speaker 3: you're raising your family, and you get arrested. Did you
9:01
Speaker 3: even know about this crime? Had you heard anything about it?
9:04
Speaker 3: Was it talked about in the neighborhood.
9:05
Speaker 7: No, sir. And actually when I was approached about it,
9:09
Speaker 7: I volunteered to go to the lineup because I was
9:12
Speaker 7: actually sitting in the parish waiting to get out on bill.
9:15
Speaker 7: And when they approached me about this crime here, and
9:19
Speaker 7: they asked me what i'd be willing to appear in
9:20
Speaker 7: front of a lineup. I know I hadn't done anything,
9:24
Speaker 7: you know, as far as in that case there, but
9:26
Speaker 7: they talking about someone else, said that I may have
9:29
Speaker 7: raped them, But all the time I know I hadn't
9:32
Speaker 7: raped anyone in the beginning.
9:34
Speaker 3: And then she picked you out of the lineup, That's
9:37
Speaker 3: what I was told. Oh so you weren't even made
9:39
Speaker 3: aware of it at that time, no, sir. So what
9:42
Speaker 3: happens next?
9:43
Speaker 4: All right.
9:44
Speaker 7: I think it was the next day that came back
9:47
Speaker 7: and booked me on something like this. Here. The attorney
9:50
Speaker 7: that I had with me at the lineup, his name
9:53
Speaker 7: was Ralph Burnett, and I wound up dismissing him. He
9:58
Speaker 7: was another pee attorney who asked the question to me,
10:02
Speaker 7: do I go around raping on white women? So I
10:07
Speaker 7: had to dismiss him or called my parents and explain
10:11
Speaker 7: to my parents what was happening. And I guess to
10:15
Speaker 7: let him know that he would fied. And that's when
10:18
Speaker 7: we went and got Joe Toash with the way, the
10:21
Speaker 7: fact that Joe Tash and Robert Burnett was actually working
10:26
Speaker 7: out the same office.
10:27
Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't even know that, no, sir, I mean
10:30
Speaker 3: that sounds like an office from hell. Because this guy
10:33
Speaker 3: Tosh was one of the most incompetent and even evil
10:39
Speaker 3: characters that the American Bar Association has a level ever
10:42
Speaker 3: allowed to become a lawyer. How he became a lawyer
10:46
Speaker 3: in the first place is a mystery, but the fact
10:48
Speaker 3: is that he was later disbarred for such egregious misconduct
10:54
Speaker 3: or whatever you want to call it, malfeasance and competence.
10:56
Speaker 3: And in your case, it actually bears read because it
11:01
Speaker 3: defies the imagination to see what is possible in our
11:05
Speaker 3: criminal justice system. And I'm going to read something here.
11:09
Speaker 3: He repeatedly failed to appear in court, missing both the
11:12
Speaker 3: arraignment and the sentencing. That alone is giving me the chills.
11:18
Speaker 3: It's just shocking. I mean, how can a lawyer not
11:21
Speaker 3: show up? It's just I mean, and there and there
11:24
Speaker 3: you are probably wondering, where's my lawyer at right? Yes, sir, now,
11:28
Speaker 3: as anybody would be. Okay, let's take a second here.
11:33
Speaker 3: He also failed to file important and basic pleadings with
11:36
Speaker 3: the court. He never challenged the circumstances of the identification,
11:41
Speaker 3: which would be lawyering one oh one Vanessa. Absolutely the
11:46
Speaker 3: list goes on. He did not prepare an opening statement,
11:49
Speaker 3: failed to properly cross examine witnesses, sometimes asking no questions
11:52
Speaker 3: at all, and gave just a four page closing argument
11:58
Speaker 3: and then, as if to put an exclaim nation point
12:00
Speaker 3: on this whole nightmare scenario of American jurisprudence. Despite explicitly
12:07
Speaker 3: telling Malcolm and his family that he would appeal to
12:09
Speaker 3: the decision, he never did so. This is hard, probably
12:15
Speaker 3: for a lot of people to believe that in a
12:18
Speaker 3: situation in which literally your life is in this guy's
12:24
Speaker 3: hands if because you were facing and ultimately were given
12:28
Speaker 3: a sentence of life at hard labor with no possibility
12:33
Speaker 3: of parole. And this guy didn't even bother to do
12:37
Speaker 3: things that any first year law student would have done.
12:41
Speaker 3: And it's a terrible failure that nobody steps in, and
12:46
Speaker 3: there's got to be someone who's going to go, wait,
12:48
Speaker 3: this is not okay, and that should have happened in
12:51
Speaker 3: your case. There should be some check and balance where
12:56
Speaker 3: when an attorney fails so terribly it doesn't take years
13:00
Speaker 3: and years and years and then wait for the guy
13:02
Speaker 3: to get this barred after he screws over so many
13:05
Speaker 3: other people too. I mean, God knows the trail of
13:08
Speaker 3: destruction and misery that he left. How many more Malcolm
13:11
Speaker 3: Alexander's are out there that had the terrible misfortune and
13:15
Speaker 3: not only be wrongfully accused and arrested for something and charged,
13:19
Speaker 3: but then to be represented misrepresented by this small evil man.
13:28
Speaker 3: This is America. This shouldn't happen. So how long did
13:45
Speaker 3: you have to wait for your trial to start?
13:48
Speaker 7: Think about three months? Because it was a time that
13:53
Speaker 7: I actually went to Jackson Mississippi for the criminal in
13:58
Speaker 7: saying for a little while, trying to buy time to
14:02
Speaker 7: get a lawyer to investigate the case, because at some
14:06
Speaker 7: point in there he was explaining to me about the
14:09
Speaker 7: date that the crime happened on, and then by the
14:12
Speaker 7: time I made it back then he were telling me
14:15
Speaker 7: about it happened on another date and at the time
14:18
Speaker 7: I was working, so we was trying to establish me
14:20
Speaker 7: an alibi, my family and us to get with my
14:24
Speaker 7: boss to show the lawyer because he really wouldn't do
14:27
Speaker 7: and know what we call laid work, and the information
14:31
Speaker 7: he was kind of like giving us about the case
14:34
Speaker 7: wasn't really never measuring up because we discovered that after
14:36
Speaker 7: him constantly saying the date was offed. So we just
14:40
Speaker 7: couldn't necessarily afford to go and get another lawyer just
14:43
Speaker 7: like that, and I had made a decision about had
14:46
Speaker 7: actually having my own paid attorney, So just one thing
14:51
Speaker 7: led to another, and I just wound up sticking with
14:53
Speaker 7: him and my boss who I was working for doing
14:57
Speaker 7: contract work with, like what's going on? His question asked
15:03
Speaker 7: he was the lawyer actually saying the date that it
15:07
Speaker 7: happened on that the Pacific date because he had wanted
15:10
Speaker 7: to come to cold and testify that much. We did
15:13
Speaker 7: run by the lawyer, but there was something that he
15:16
Speaker 7: just never follow up on.
15:18
Speaker 3: So your boss, who would have been probably a very
15:23
Speaker 3: believable witness as somebody who was a successful businessman employing
15:28
Speaker 3: people like yourself, I never got the chance to get
15:31
Speaker 3: understand and tell people where you really were that day exactly.
15:34
Speaker 3: And were you aware at this time that this lawyer
15:37
Speaker 3: was really selling you down the river?
15:39
Speaker 7: No, sir, not really, because I went into the system
15:42
Speaker 7: trusting it, not believing that you know, they actually can
15:45
Speaker 7: find me guilty or he got allow me to be
15:49
Speaker 7: found guilty or something I didn't do. And I considered,
15:53
Speaker 7: once all the facts is actually known about the case,
15:56
Speaker 7: you know, it would prove that I didn't do it.
15:59
Speaker 3: That seems to be common thread, right. You believe from
16:02
Speaker 3: the beginning that the system would work for you because
16:04
Speaker 3: you knew that you weren't there, You weren't the guy,
16:06
Speaker 3: and in fact, he didn't even match the description as
16:08
Speaker 3: it turns out exactly. But it felt that every step
16:11
Speaker 3: of the way, and there were so many things that
16:13
Speaker 3: just one thing could have gone right and would have
16:15
Speaker 3: changed the whole outcome of this thing, but instead everything
16:17
Speaker 3: went wrong. So the day of the trial comes and
16:21
Speaker 3: you're still believing that a jury is going to hear
16:24
Speaker 3: the facts and they're going to recognize that there's a big,
16:27
Speaker 3: big mistake. Then you're going to go home to your family, Yes, sir,
16:31
Speaker 3: So what was that day? Like?
16:34
Speaker 7: Well, I'm sitting there, me and my family and a
16:37
Speaker 7: lawyer and let's see, I'm listening to him call witness
16:43
Speaker 7: who testifying as to well this investigating this way we
16:48
Speaker 7: was calling here, calling it and then getting like a
16:51
Speaker 7: narraror of the events that it was taking place and
16:55
Speaker 7: surround the crime, whereas going to the sea collecting evid dance.
17:00
Speaker 7: And then we got over to the doctor where they
17:03
Speaker 7: brought her to the hospital. Then we went to the
17:06
Speaker 7: doctor who examined her, and he gave his findings and
17:10
Speaker 7: stuff like this hell and somewhere in there he's more
17:13
Speaker 7: or less repeating thanks what she said, more than actually
17:18
Speaker 7: gave his expert analysis of the test results and stuff
17:22
Speaker 7: like that. But I'm listening to all this show, but
17:24
Speaker 7: nothing actually is pointing the thing at me. Till we
17:27
Speaker 7: got to the shour final stage when we went to
17:30
Speaker 7: talking about identification. So I'm saying, well, this the only
17:35
Speaker 7: thing they're talking about is identification that actually connected me
17:38
Speaker 7: with this. We had no other witness, no nothing, I mean,
17:42
Speaker 7: no fingerprints, no blood tests, nothing but identification. So I'm saying,
17:49
Speaker 7: all right, let's see.
17:51
Speaker 3: And the less of the fact that the only evidence
17:56
Speaker 3: against him was I w this identification months and months
18:00
Speaker 3: after the fact. Had you been representing him, what would
18:04
Speaker 3: you have done, well, I.
18:07
Speaker 8: Would have challenged the idea. I mean, there was a
18:09
Speaker 8: lot that the lawyer could have done based on the
18:10
Speaker 8: actual facts of the case. The fact that the victim
18:13
Speaker 8: did not have a good opportunity to view the assailant,
18:16
Speaker 8: that the attack happened from behind, that the assailant had
18:19
Speaker 8: a gun to the victim's head throughout most of the attack,
18:22
Speaker 8: and like Malcolm said, there was just a very vague
18:25
Speaker 8: description of the assailant, you know, just basically general height,
18:28
Speaker 8: general appearance, race, but you know, nothing specific. And the
18:33
Speaker 8: victim's identification came over four months after the crime happened.
18:38
Speaker 8: In these suggests of of identification procedures where he was
18:42
Speaker 8: repeatedly shown to the victim, And what's most important is
18:46
Speaker 8: that the second time the victim was shown Malcolm was
18:49
Speaker 8: in this live lineup, and even that second time through
18:52
Speaker 8: that suggestive procedure, she was not positive that he was
18:56
Speaker 8: the assailant. Her identification was documented as pow and tentative,
19:01
Speaker 8: and that was the lineup report that was prepared by
19:05
Speaker 8: the officer who conducted the identification procedure.
19:08
Speaker 3: What happened to the guilty beyond all reasonable doubt thing, Well.
19:12
Speaker 6: That is just not what happened here.
19:15
Speaker 8: I mean, it's just it's so enraging, as you said,
19:18
Speaker 8: to listen to this story and to kind of relive
19:21
Speaker 8: it again with Malcolm, because here he is twenty years old.
19:24
Speaker 8: His life is at stake, right, He's gonna be sentenced
19:28
Speaker 8: to life with no possibility parole, which is the mandatory
19:31
Speaker 8: sentence in Louisiana for aggravated rape, which just means any
19:35
Speaker 8: type of rape with force. And so he's on trial
19:38
Speaker 8: for his life and his lawyer's not doing anything. I mean,
19:42
Speaker 8: imagine your first lawyer says to you, do you like
19:45
Speaker 8: raping white woman? It's like, who that's your defender, that's
19:47
Speaker 8: supposed to be your advocate against the government coming after
19:51
Speaker 8: you with all of the resources that it has to
19:53
Speaker 8: prosecute you for this crime, and then he goes to
19:56
Speaker 8: trial and his trial lasts one day. In one day,
20:00
Speaker 8: they pick a jury, have opening statements, present all of
20:04
Speaker 8: the evidence, I mean not opening statements by Malcolm's lawyer,
20:07
Speaker 8: but the state. They present all of the state's case.
20:10
Speaker 8: The defense doesn't call a single witness. The jury deliberates
20:14
Speaker 8: and returns a verdict. You know, by six pm. It's insane.
20:18
Speaker 6: How was that justice?
20:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, one day You're really right to put that in
20:22
Speaker 3: very stark, you know light, because one day that's what
20:26
Speaker 3: Malcolm's life was worth to pretty much everybody in that courtroom, right,
20:30
Speaker 3: even his defender. He didn't want to be bothered. Obviously,
20:33
Speaker 3: he didn't show up, He didn't do any research, he
20:35
Speaker 3: didn't call any witnesses, he didn't do anything that he
20:37
Speaker 3: was supposed to do. And I know, I keep harping
20:39
Speaker 3: on that because it's madness. And then, like you said,
20:43
Speaker 3: one day and everybody go home and go get something
20:45
Speaker 3: eat and watch the news and go to sleep or
20:47
Speaker 3: whatever they do, right, and he goes off to prison
20:49
Speaker 3: for the rest of his life. And it takes thirty
20:51
Speaker 3: eight years to unravel this disaster and to bring him
20:56
Speaker 3: back home to where he belongs. I want to get
20:58
Speaker 3: to you in a minute, Malcolm Junior, because I mean
21:01
Speaker 3: you were you were just a baby at the time.
21:02
Speaker 3: Were you were even aware of any of this stuff? No,
21:05
Speaker 3: because you were between two and three while this was
21:07
Speaker 3: taking place. Right, Who took care of you during this time?
21:11
Speaker 9: Between my mom and grandmother and grandfather and my mom mom,
21:15
Speaker 9: So all my grandmothers, my mom my ain'ties.
21:20
Speaker 4: They all stepped up.
21:21
Speaker 3: And how difficult was it for you? I mean was
21:24
Speaker 3: there a stigma attached to it? Did other kids have
21:26
Speaker 3: an idea that your dad was in prison? And what
21:29
Speaker 3: did that mean? And how difficult was it?
21:31
Speaker 9: Well, none of the kids knew. I didn't even know
21:33
Speaker 9: in the beginning. But as I got older, that's when
21:35
Speaker 9: I became aware of. You know, when we'll go see
21:38
Speaker 9: him When I'm young, I'm wondering why he can't come
21:42
Speaker 9: with me, you know.
21:43
Speaker 3: When you would go visit him in Gola.
21:45
Speaker 4: Yes, when I go visit him in Goolo.
21:47
Speaker 9: So, like I said, going there from two years old,
21:50
Speaker 9: growing up going there, and as I got old, I'm like,
21:53
Speaker 9: he's asked my grandma, like Ma, why my daddy can't come?
21:57
Speaker 4: You know? So she'll be like he come in, he
22:01
Speaker 4: just can't come right now.
22:02
Speaker 9: So then as I got older, it's like, oh, this
22:07
Speaker 9: is jail, Like my dad in jail. So because then
22:10
Speaker 9: nobody actually fully told, like sat down and told me,
22:13
Speaker 9: your dad is in jail, so I just had to
22:16
Speaker 9: as I got older, figured out on my own and
22:19
Speaker 9: and then it's like what my dad in jail for?
22:22
Speaker 9: You know, So I'm getting bits and pieces. And then
22:25
Speaker 9: as I got older, I understood they talked to him
22:28
Speaker 9: like like my uncles and my aunts and everybody, like
22:33
Speaker 9: everybody in the neighborhood like, man, your dad ain't do that,
22:35
Speaker 9: you know. Once I got up in age and they're
22:37
Speaker 9: talking about the case, like your dad will never do
22:40
Speaker 9: nothing like that. All they have to do is race
22:42
Speaker 9: calls and play football and things like that. So I
22:46
Speaker 9: never felt any you know, far as not believing that
22:50
Speaker 9: he didn't do it, because everybody that ever knew him
22:53
Speaker 9: always had something positive to sell bottom and that.
22:56
Speaker 4: You know, they wronged him, and you know, things like that.
22:59
Speaker 3: So you don't seem well, both of you, neither one
23:02
Speaker 3: of you seemed angry. I mean, did at any point
23:05
Speaker 3: did you become angry at the system because you knew
23:08
Speaker 3: that your dad was in this. And we've seen different cases,
23:10
Speaker 3: we've interviewing people on the show where their children actually
23:13
Speaker 3: thought they were guilty because they were told that the
23:15
Speaker 3: father was guilty or their mother. But how did you
23:19
Speaker 3: process that? I don't know. I feel like I would
23:21
Speaker 3: have been very angry.
23:22
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, I was mad growing up with your dad
23:25
Speaker 9: not there and he missing your life and you get
23:29
Speaker 9: to them folks in a row. You be neat your
23:31
Speaker 9: dad in the house and that father figure. So he
23:35
Speaker 9: always was in my life talking to me over the phone,
23:37
Speaker 9: but that's not him in the presence of being there
23:41
Speaker 9: to be able to put his foot down in things
23:43
Speaker 9: that when I'm getting out the way with my mom
23:45
Speaker 9: or doing things I shouldn't be doing.
23:48
Speaker 4: You definitely need your dad there. So, yeah, I was mad.
23:51
Speaker 3: Let's go back to the trial day. There's this one
23:55
Speaker 3: day trial and now it's getting to be late afternoon,
23:58
Speaker 3: early evening. Jury goes out. They deliberated I think for
24:02
Speaker 3: less than an hour, right, yeah, less than an hour. Yeah,
24:07
Speaker 3: they come back. Did you believe at this point, having
24:10
Speaker 3: now seen the whole day's proceedings, and you get a
24:13
Speaker 3: sense when you're in that room, you sort of make
24:15
Speaker 3: some eye contact with the jurors and whatnot, right, what
24:18
Speaker 3: was going through your mind? And what was that moment like.
24:22
Speaker 7: When they came back into the coat room. The honest
24:26
Speaker 7: it is like a toss up because the lawyer really
24:29
Speaker 7: didn't say much in my defense. I'm trying to give
24:33
Speaker 7: you an idea of how it worth for me. Really,
24:36
Speaker 7: I can say it back then as opposed to how
24:38
Speaker 7: I see it now. It makes me, you know, because
24:41
Speaker 7: I really realized, you know, a lot, that he didn't
24:44
Speaker 7: do it all right. But it was like, is this
24:48
Speaker 7: really happened? To be honest with you, I couldn't really
24:52
Speaker 7: believe that it actually was taking place. They actually couldn't
24:55
Speaker 7: believe that we had got this fall with it.
24:58
Speaker 3: Right, because you should have never even been on trial
25:00
Speaker 3: in the first place. We know that now, yes, sure, well,
25:02
Speaker 3: I don't want to minimize the idea of three months
25:04
Speaker 3: in jail waiting your trial. But had it resolved at
25:08
Speaker 3: that point, you could have gone on with your life
25:10
Speaker 3: and piece things back together, maybe gotten your job back
25:12
Speaker 3: and gone back to raising your family, et cetera. But
25:15
Speaker 3: then there was that moment when they announced their verdict.
25:21
Speaker 4: It was shocking.
25:23
Speaker 7: It was hurting because I remember my mother busting out crying,
25:29
Speaker 7: my sister started crying, and my daddy just had that
25:34
Speaker 7: look on his face. Yeah, I can't even remember even
25:39
Speaker 7: if the lawyer said everything gonna be all right or
25:41
Speaker 7: not and all, I can't even remember that because really
25:45
Speaker 7: was paying attention more to my family then, because, like
25:49
Speaker 7: you see, thinking now, I realized when I got found guilty,
25:55
Speaker 7: they got found guilty, it just was more than just me.
25:57
Speaker 7: They was finally guilty. And once I actually stepped out
26:03
Speaker 7: there present, that's when I started crying. That's when they
26:07
Speaker 7: really sit in and affect me. I try to remain
26:11
Speaker 7: strong for them at that time.
26:15
Speaker 3: And then not too long after that, I guess you
26:17
Speaker 3: were taking off to what is one of the worst
26:21
Speaker 3: prisons anywhere in the world, really in Gola, and it's
26:25
Speaker 3: really a sleigh plantation. And in fact, from what I understand,
26:29
Speaker 3: you were actually made to pick cotton in the beginning, right,
26:32
Speaker 3: which is an image that is just mind blowing.
26:37
Speaker 7: Yes, sir, Yes, when I got there, we're still picking cotton,
26:41
Speaker 7: we're still picking ochres, we are still picking corn, very
26:46
Speaker 7: the vegetable and didn't have a tool what they call
26:50
Speaker 7: a hole. Actually it was a tree branch with a
26:53
Speaker 7: piece of mellow on the end that we was using
26:55
Speaker 7: to straight the roads with.
26:58
Speaker 3: A tree branch with a piece of metal on the
26:59
Speaker 3: en de scrape the roads. Yes, sir, so it's pretty
27:02
Speaker 3: much like a chain gang.
27:04
Speaker 7: More or less. And only think about it. We didn't
27:06
Speaker 7: actually have the change us. We had the gut and
27:09
Speaker 7: goss and everything, and a certain perimeter we had to
27:12
Speaker 7: stay within.
27:28
Speaker 3: Here, you are an innocent man, take it away from
27:31
Speaker 3: your family and your life and everything else, put into
27:33
Speaker 3: this basically hell on earth. How did you manage to persevere?
27:41
Speaker 3: What kind of strength does it take to deal with
27:45
Speaker 3: almost four decades in that environment knowing the whole time
27:50
Speaker 3: that you're innocent.
27:51
Speaker 7: Well, most people when they go into the institution that
27:55
Speaker 7: discover they try to adjust to the institution. But it
27:59
Speaker 7: got pocketed inside the institution that is educational and positive
28:05
Speaker 7: and by me actually off the way has work. When
28:08
Speaker 7: I was in the free world and going into that
28:11
Speaker 7: type of environment field work and stuff like that, it
28:14
Speaker 7: was kind of like readjusting. And I know it always
28:18
Speaker 7: was a place that I didn't want to be, that
28:21
Speaker 7: I shouldn't have been in the first place. So it
28:24
Speaker 7: was a question is what can I do? How can
28:26
Speaker 7: I maintain that actually it will help me to get
28:30
Speaker 7: out of here. And like I always tell people getting mad,
28:34
Speaker 7: they're gonna solve the problem. I was somewhat angry in
28:36
Speaker 7: the beginning because I know I wouldn't be here it's common,
28:40
Speaker 7: but that didn't solve my problem. So during my appeal
28:46
Speaker 7: stage and once it was over with and went into
28:49
Speaker 7: my post conviction, we had this lawyer who actually suggested,
28:54
Speaker 7: because we had to go in and hire and another
28:55
Speaker 7: lawyer to do the thing, we actually had this other
28:58
Speaker 7: lawyer who suggested to me my parents that I could
29:02
Speaker 7: file my own post conviction. So from that and when
29:06
Speaker 7: my parents mentioned that to me and said that, the
29:09
Speaker 7: lawyer said, well, you could take time out by you
29:12
Speaker 7: being that and learning the law and do your own
29:15
Speaker 7: post conviction and stuff like that. And I didn't even
29:18
Speaker 7: get mad about that because it's the truth, you know,
29:22
Speaker 7: that's started me, That's started me into pursuing my freedom
29:29
Speaker 7: on my own.
29:30
Speaker 3: And how did you find out about the Innocence Project?
29:34
Speaker 7: Right, one of the prison magazines that I had received
29:38
Speaker 7: had the Innocent Project address and information and on it.
29:42
Speaker 3: So you just sent off a letter and then and
29:44
Speaker 3: then how did you find out? Did you get a
29:46
Speaker 3: letter back saying we're going to take your case?
29:49
Speaker 7: Yes, I did. I did receive it, and it actually
29:51
Speaker 7: brightened me, to be honest with you, because I have
29:55
Speaker 7: tried hard to contact other organizations and trying to get
29:59
Speaker 7: them interested in my case.
30:00
Speaker 3: And Malcolm Junior, how where were you during this time
30:03
Speaker 3: of this stuff? Did he call you and say, hey,
30:05
Speaker 3: guess what, I got some great news? Or you must
30:08
Speaker 3: have been trying everything you could do as well to
30:10
Speaker 3: help him because you knew he was innocent. He's your dad,
30:12
Speaker 3: and I could see you love him so well.
30:14
Speaker 9: Yeah, I had got a couple of lawyers myself once
30:16
Speaker 9: I got up in age and went to making money.
30:18
Speaker 4: Ain't nothing he called for.
30:20
Speaker 9: I didn't try, you know, we was trying to investigators,
30:24
Speaker 9: trying this. Go talk to this one, you know what
30:26
Speaker 9: I mean, putting my money up, me and my grandmother,
30:30
Speaker 9: go and get this lawyer, that lawyer. So it's whatever
30:33
Speaker 9: he needed. I was there and was willing to do
30:35
Speaker 9: whatever it takes to try. But when he called and said,
30:38
Speaker 9: hey man, they found some evidence. Because he had been
30:40
Speaker 9: writing down there to Jefferson Parish for years and years
30:44
Speaker 9: and years with no evidence. When he called and said
30:46
Speaker 9: and they say they found some evidence, and we were like, oh, yeah,
30:50
Speaker 9: you know, we were just very excited about that. And
30:53
Speaker 9: then also when he said that the Innocent Project's going
30:56
Speaker 9: to take the case again, he said, man, were good,
30:58
Speaker 9: We're straight.
30:59
Speaker 4: I'm a bea there. And this was just in the beginning.
31:01
Speaker 9: We were just so happy about that, you know, just
31:03
Speaker 9: I was very happy and please.
31:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, Vanessa, back to you. So originally, when the in
31:08
Speaker 3: this project got involved, the evidence was nowhere to be found, right, So.
31:15
Speaker 8: You know, Malcolm really reached out in the early days
31:18
Speaker 8: of our history. And in nineteen ninety six we started
31:21
Speaker 8: working on his case and a law student reached out
31:25
Speaker 8: to the court clerk's office that was supposed to have
31:27
Speaker 8: all the trial exhibits, and I think it was in
31:30
Speaker 8: an earlier day of honesty, got a letter back saying
31:33
Speaker 8: we inadvertently destroyed all of the evidence.
31:36
Speaker 6: We shouldn't have. It was a mistake.
31:38
Speaker 8: Today they probably would have just said, yeah, has lost
31:40
Speaker 8: we can't find it, but they actually copped to the
31:42
Speaker 8: fact that they had destroyed it.
31:43
Speaker 6: Just a couple of years after his.
31:45
Speaker 8: Trial, you know, while he was still on post conviction,
31:48
Speaker 8: So there was seeman evidence that had been left that
31:50
Speaker 8: we could have tested, but it had been destroyed. And
31:52
Speaker 8: so we because we were just focused at the time
31:56
Speaker 8: on DNA cases, we closed out Malcolm's case. But he
32:01
Speaker 8: didn't give up, you know, he kept on filing motions.
32:03
Speaker 8: He kept on, as Malcolm Junior said, reaching out to
32:06
Speaker 8: the officials in Jefferson Parish. And so his persistence paid
32:10
Speaker 8: off in twenty thirteen when they responded to him and said, actually,
32:14
Speaker 8: even though all of that evidence that the courthouse had
32:16
Speaker 8: been destroyed, there was some hairs that had been collected
32:20
Speaker 8: from where the victim was raped, and those had been
32:22
Speaker 8: kept at the lab.
32:23
Speaker 6: So they found this envelope that would turn out to
32:26
Speaker 6: be the key to his freedom.
32:28
Speaker 3: Are there rules for the safe guarding and the storing
32:33
Speaker 3: safe storing of evidence from cases around the country.
32:37
Speaker 8: So, unfortunately, there are no uniform rules. Some states have
32:41
Speaker 8: preservation laws that require evidence to be held onto but
32:45
Speaker 8: in some states it's perfectly fine to destroy evidence after
32:49
Speaker 8: a direct appeal.
32:51
Speaker 6: So that's something that has to be changed.
32:52
Speaker 8: I mean, how can we have somebody in prison and
32:55
Speaker 8: destroy evidence that could one day.
32:57
Speaker 6: You know, show that we got it wrong.
32:59
Speaker 3: We know that.
33:00
Speaker 8: Technology constantly evolves, so there's just no reason to be
33:04
Speaker 8: destroying biological evidence that could cut to the truth.
33:07
Speaker 6: In a case, it could.
33:08
Speaker 3: Not only prove that the person that's in there is
33:11
Speaker 3: a Roman, but could also show who the right one
33:13
Speaker 3: is and then do society a big favor by getting
33:15
Speaker 3: that predator off the streets. So back to you, So
33:19
Speaker 3: now here it is again, like I said, I mean,
33:21
Speaker 3: what a roller coaster ride, because after sixteen long years,
33:26
Speaker 3: you get the golden ticket, so to speak. Right, the
33:28
Speaker 3: innocent spot is taking your case. Then you get the
33:31
Speaker 3: huge disappointment finding out that the evidence, which is what
33:35
Speaker 3: you need in order to be able to prove what
33:37
Speaker 3: you know, is gone. That would be the time when
33:41
Speaker 3: it would have been convenient for you to just say,
33:43
Speaker 3: you know what, I give up. I can't. I mean,
33:46
Speaker 3: who can. The highs and lows are insane. But seventeen
33:50
Speaker 3: more years you persisted until one day twenty and thirteen,
33:55
Speaker 3: after thirty three years, and even that's five years ago
33:58
Speaker 3: now because we're in twenty eighteen. Obviously it's remarkable. I
34:03
Speaker 3: mean it says a lot about you. I don't know
34:07
Speaker 3: who could do that. You're doing this hard time and
34:10
Speaker 3: the best way that you possibly can right, yes, doing
34:13
Speaker 3: positive things, staying close with your family, fighting to prove
34:18
Speaker 3: your innocence. And then three weeks ago on January thirtieth,
34:25
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, almost thirty eight years a lifetime. Okay, yeah,
34:33
Speaker 3: let's just process that. What was that day? Like?
34:37
Speaker 7: No, so I actually was in the coat room when
34:39
Speaker 7: I found out, and really I was fighting back to tales.
34:44
Speaker 7: It almost went you. I got them staying I went
34:47
Speaker 7: you a life a denial And when I say, like
34:51
Speaker 7: Eric Corner, that I would turn no matter whether I
34:54
Speaker 7: was writing or even wrong, I just was say right
34:57
Speaker 7: because I knew I was writing on the right trio.
35:00
Speaker 7: I was always constantly being told that you know it's wrong,
35:04
Speaker 7: it's not going to happen. You know, we deny you,
35:06
Speaker 7: we deny you, we deny you, and be honest with you.
35:11
Speaker 7: My true freedom date the date that I knew that
35:14
Speaker 7: I truly was going to get out, when Miss Vanessa
35:19
Speaker 7: actually believed in me being innocent, and she always told
35:23
Speaker 7: me then that she'll be with me to the end.
35:26
Speaker 7: And if I told the people such as it just
35:30
Speaker 7: it's remarkable, irreplaceable. That's when I believe that I was
35:35
Speaker 7: gonna get out.
35:37
Speaker 3: That's when you believed, and that's a very powerful statement.
35:41
Speaker 3: But then you went to court and this is the opposite.
35:44
Speaker 3: Now right now, we're thirty eight years later. Family's there, Yes,
35:48
Speaker 3: Sir Malcolm Junior. Were you there that day? Yes, and
35:51
Speaker 3: you were there, Vanessa right.
35:54
Speaker 8: It was actually an incredibly stressful day because we had
35:58
Speaker 8: done DNA testing in Malcolm's case, and as of July
36:04
Speaker 8: twenty seventeen, we had some indications from the prosecutor's office
36:07
Speaker 8: that they were recognizing that this was an erroneous conviction
36:11
Speaker 8: and would potentially be moving with us to vacate the conviction.
36:16
Speaker 8: But it was seven excruciating months of getting to that point,
36:20
Speaker 8: and even as of the morning of January thirtieth, we
36:25
Speaker 8: were not certain that they were going to vacate the conviction.
36:29
Speaker 8: So when Malcolm says he learned that he was being
36:33
Speaker 8: exonerated in court, he really did, because we didn't know
36:38
Speaker 8: as of that morning what was going to happen. And
36:40
Speaker 8: it was incredible pressure because Malcolm was in court, he
36:43
Speaker 8: had been waiting on the quote unquote one yard line
36:46
Speaker 8: for seven months. His entire family was there, and we
36:50
Speaker 8: didn't know whether they were going to agree or ask
36:54
Speaker 8: for more time.
36:56
Speaker 3: Okay, so now back to you. Welcome. Okay, so you're there, Vanessa,
36:59
Speaker 3: stretch and out. I know the family's got to be
37:03
Speaker 3: on ten right stress level. And you're there. You've seen
37:07
Speaker 3: everything now, yes, sir, So what happened? How did it
37:12
Speaker 3: come down?
37:15
Speaker 7: Oh? How you will say waking up from a coma?
37:22
Speaker 7: I mean it was like it happy to be alive.
37:25
Speaker 7: I mean everything that I actually ever went through preparing
37:29
Speaker 7: myself for this one day, it was all worth it.
37:33
Speaker 7: I mean, keeping clear, not getting there any trouble, learn
37:38
Speaker 7: as much as I can learn, I mean, just preparing
37:41
Speaker 7: myself to one day actually returning to society. When she
37:46
Speaker 7: finally said that see I touched it my immediate release, Yeah,
37:54
Speaker 7: it was like, did you mean, like did she really
37:58
Speaker 7: say immediate rely? Because I'm thinking him I had to
38:00
Speaker 7: go back to ant Gorla. I thought you were going
38:03
Speaker 7: to send me back to ant Gorla.
38:07
Speaker 3: But uh so those were the words the judge said.
38:11
Speaker 3: There was some arguments back and forth whatever, and then
38:13
Speaker 3: the judge said, what I mean.
38:15
Speaker 8: It's unfortunately not what you would want it to be
38:18
Speaker 8: in every way because you want the state to say
38:21
Speaker 8: on the record, We're sorry you want the judge to
38:25
Speaker 8: publicly acknowledge all that has been robbed from Malcolm and
38:29
Speaker 8: his family who were there in court. And while everyone
38:32
Speaker 8: was cordial and the conviction was vacated, it certainly it
38:35
Speaker 8: wasn't what he was owed at that moment, but he
38:39
Speaker 8: was getting out and so there was a big sense
38:41
Speaker 8: of joy, and his mom was in the courtroom and
38:44
Speaker 8: probably twenty or thirty family members at least.
38:47
Speaker 3: Wow, that must have been a raucous And what did
38:51
Speaker 3: you do? Did you turn around and did you jump
38:54
Speaker 3: for joyed?
38:55
Speaker 7: I stayed pretty comb I stayed pretty cone I do.
39:00
Speaker 7: How can I explain it? It's just the institution of life.
39:04
Speaker 7: It prepares you for moments like that. It's kind of
39:10
Speaker 7: like it don't take your spirit, but it makes you
39:14
Speaker 7: live a harder life.
39:16
Speaker 3: Not your emotions so much. Yes, sir, well, let me
39:19
Speaker 3: get the family perspective from Malcolm Junior. Because you're sitting
39:23
Speaker 3: there in the courtroom with the twenty or thirty family
39:26
Speaker 3: members how many it is, but it's your dad. There's
39:29
Speaker 3: nobody closer to Malcolm in the courtroom than you because
39:33
Speaker 3: yours blood. So what was your reaction and what was
39:37
Speaker 3: the family's reaction. I mean, did you even believe it?
39:42
Speaker 9: I tell you what, we jump for joy. You know,
39:44
Speaker 9: we were very excited and we was, like she said,
39:48
Speaker 9: it was a she. We were sitting there just waiting
39:50
Speaker 9: and waiting and we didn't know if it was going
39:52
Speaker 9: to happen that day.
39:52
Speaker 4: But when it did, yeah.
39:54
Speaker 9: We we just jumped and clapped and laughed and cried
39:58
Speaker 9: with every you know, just surreal. I just couldn't believe
40:02
Speaker 9: that they had came. So yeah, we was excited, very excited.
40:07
Speaker 3: And then did you just walk right out into the daylight?
40:10
Speaker 3: And where did you go?
40:11
Speaker 7: Went down to booking. I had to have a change
40:15
Speaker 7: of clothes and everything, and they had to like process
40:19
Speaker 7: me out and from that, yeah, I had to sign
40:25
Speaker 7: some release paper and then they let me go. They
40:30
Speaker 7: finally let me go.
40:31
Speaker 3: Was it an hour or three hours? How long did
40:34
Speaker 3: that whole process take?
40:35
Speaker 7: I think about an hour and a half.
40:37
Speaker 3: And everybody was there waiting for you when you came
40:41
Speaker 3: out and walked down the steps like in the movie
40:43
Speaker 3: or something like.
40:43
Speaker 7: That, And that was the true exciting moment. Beautiful. It
40:47
Speaker 7: was a beautiful day, sun was out and everything. I
40:50
Speaker 7: had a nice little breeze blowing. I would remember that.
40:54
Speaker 7: I mean it was beautiful. All of them was out
40:56
Speaker 7: there waiting on me, standing and welcome me. I mean
41:02
Speaker 7: that's you remember. You'll think. I remember just when the
41:05
Speaker 7: judge said, you know, reverse free and stuff like that.
41:09
Speaker 7: But to actually step out into society, into the free
41:14
Speaker 7: world and breathe again and not worry about all that
41:19
Speaker 7: prisent life.
41:21
Speaker 3: Where did you go?
41:22
Speaker 7: I went to the Innocent Project, off a little indwl
41:25
Speaker 7: and give her an interview, you know, said hello, thanks
41:29
Speaker 7: to everyone there more or less. Then turn around and
41:33
Speaker 7: when got me something to eat? I actually, when got
41:37
Speaker 7: me some seafood? Actually said there and enjoyed it. Did
41:41
Speaker 7: we use some fried bread, didn't I?
41:43
Speaker 3: Yeah?
41:44
Speaker 4: He did. Some of the wife had cook some that
41:47
Speaker 4: late that night.
41:48
Speaker 7: My son's wife make a fried bread that my mother
41:51
Speaker 7: told her to me that I grew up on eating.
41:55
Speaker 7: And uh, she made me some fried breed and I
41:57
Speaker 7: always wanted to eat me some homemade fried bread.
42:00
Speaker 3: Oh, some fride red okay. And the seafood. I can't
42:03
Speaker 3: imagine how good that takes after thirty eight years of
42:05
Speaker 3: no seafood. Right, they don't give you any seafood and
42:07
Speaker 3: ain't gold.
42:08
Speaker 7: Are they, No, sir, not like you would think. It
42:11
Speaker 7: was really more like fish paddies and if you actually
42:15
Speaker 7: get to ever see a shrimp and all, you know,
42:18
Speaker 7: like the probably say falling between Yeah, I hear that.
42:24
Speaker 3: Do you have a memory from those almost four decades
42:27
Speaker 3: in prison? Was there a worst moment from all the
42:29
Speaker 3: time you were locked up?
42:30
Speaker 7: Yes, sir, actually witness and really experience a lot of
42:37
Speaker 7: not caring like I see to be in a place
42:42
Speaker 7: where that's truly no emotions being showed. Everybody likes smothering
42:49
Speaker 7: the actually the way they feel and walking around as
42:53
Speaker 7: you know, I'm not to be touched, I'm not to
42:58
Speaker 7: even be spoken to. Is it's a kind of nerve
43:03
Speaker 7: setting troubling me and you really want to get out
43:08
Speaker 7: of here. You want to find a way to get
43:10
Speaker 7: away from that. It's not a society as this society.
43:17
Speaker 7: It's a society where it don't breathe criminal It just
43:24
Speaker 7: takes the It strips you up your emotions, It makes
43:30
Speaker 7: you suppress your emotion and then you replacement.
43:39
Speaker 4: I don't care.
43:41
Speaker 3: I mean it was probably a numbing routine of just
43:44
Speaker 3: one day after another week's bleeding into months bleeding into years,
43:47
Speaker 3: bleeding into decades. But was there in that routine? Was
43:51
Speaker 3: there one day of the week that was better? Was
43:53
Speaker 3: there a day when there was any any differentiation?
43:58
Speaker 4: Well, not necessary.
44:00
Speaker 7: Oh wait, just on a Friday that we realized once
44:04
Speaker 7: we get off that Friday, we really had the next
44:08
Speaker 7: two days to relax, two dates.
44:10
Speaker 3: For ourself because you didn't have to work, that.
44:14
Speaker 7: We didn't have to work, And that's kind of like
44:17
Speaker 7: became a lot. Hour was special day. I was privileged
44:21
Speaker 7: day that we actually went to work and worked the
44:25
Speaker 7: five days for the weekend for them, two days to relax, just.
44:29
Speaker 3: Like being on the outside, with the difference being that
44:31
Speaker 3: in an goal, you're making somewhere between two cents and
44:33
Speaker 3: twenty one cents an hour, right, yes, sir, Yeah, because
44:37
Speaker 3: we've heard about how they pay some people four cents
44:41
Speaker 3: and keep two cents as attacks. So now you're here
44:47
Speaker 3: in New York and you know, obviously we're super happy
44:50
Speaker 3: to have you here and seeing the sights and running
44:53
Speaker 3: around like a movie star or something like that, right,
44:56
Speaker 3: going to shows and restaurants and whatnot. It must be
45:02
Speaker 3: just a surreal experience all the way around. Does it
45:04
Speaker 3: seem like a dream.
45:07
Speaker 7: It does because everything I had explained that I would
45:11
Speaker 7: like to do and see I'm actually having an opportunity
45:15
Speaker 7: to do it. I never actually had opportunity to week now,
45:19
Speaker 7: and none that I have been afforded. It's just like
45:24
Speaker 7: really a dream coming true. Even flying on the plane
45:27
Speaker 7: was my first experience every in life.
45:30
Speaker 3: Well, that's going to be a trip before we wrap up,
45:34
Speaker 3: and I want to give everybody a chance to say
45:36
Speaker 3: some last words, and I'll start with you and Essa.
45:40
Speaker 3: I hope you'll talk a little bit more about the
45:43
Speaker 3: problem with cases in which I would identification is the
45:47
Speaker 3: only evidence, and how people should approach that when they're
45:52
Speaker 3: called to be on a jury, and how they should
45:55
Speaker 3: interpret that, especially in a case like this where it's
45:57
Speaker 3: across racial identification.
46:00
Speaker 6: Absolutely.
46:01
Speaker 8: You know, we know so much more today about the
46:05
Speaker 8: problems with memory and eyewitness identification, and it is the
46:09
Speaker 8: leading cause of wrongful convictions in the DNA cases in
46:15
Speaker 8: Louisiana right now. Unfortunately, they have not adopted reforms that
46:20
Speaker 8: we know could lead to a reduction in mistaken eyewitness identifications.
46:25
Speaker 8: And so that's an effort of the Innocence Project and
46:28
Speaker 8: Innocence Project New Orleans to try to make sure that
46:31
Speaker 8: Louisiana adopts reforms that could reduce wrongful convictions based on misidentification,
46:38
Speaker 8: and just in general, you know, we should take a
46:40
Speaker 8: step back in the criminal justice system and say, you know,
46:43
Speaker 8: are we willing to send people to prison based on
46:47
Speaker 8: an eyewitness identification alone that has no cooperation? I mean,
46:51
Speaker 8: what do we do in those cases where the only
46:53
Speaker 8: piece of evidence is an eyewitness identification, a piece of
46:57
Speaker 8: evidence that we know is very unreliable.
47:01
Speaker 6: So we need to enact reforms.
47:03
Speaker 8: When people are our juries, they should, you know, really
47:06
Speaker 8: understand that even though this type of evidence is convincing.
47:10
Speaker 8: You know, if you have an eyewitness who points the
47:12
Speaker 8: finger and says that's the person who raped me.
47:14
Speaker 6: They may believe it.
47:16
Speaker 8: They probably genuinely believe it, and they've come to believe it,
47:19
Speaker 8: but that doesn't mean that it's right and mistaken. Eyewitness
47:23
Speaker 8: identification happens at alarming rates, and we have to look
47:27
Speaker 8: at the conditions under which the identification was made. We
47:31
Speaker 8: have to look at the process under which the identification
47:34
Speaker 8: was made and make sure that it wasn't suggestive. And
47:37
Speaker 8: we need to rethink about indigen defense in this country.
47:40
Speaker 8: I mean, Malcolm did hire a lawyer, but the lawyer
47:44
Speaker 8: he hired was based on very limited means.
47:47
Speaker 3: I'm glad you brought up the thing about the indigen
47:49
Speaker 3: defense because you talk about a broken system. Last year
47:53
Speaker 3: in New Orleans, the fifty two public defenders handled approximately
47:57
Speaker 3: twenty thousand cases, so that, if you do the simple math,
48:02
Speaker 3: is about four hundred cases per person per lawyer, and
48:06
Speaker 3: courts are closed on the weekends, so that means they
48:10
Speaker 3: were processing. And I'd say processing because there's really more
48:12
Speaker 3: processing than representing one and a half clients per day.
48:18
Speaker 3: So when you really think about it, what kind of
48:20
Speaker 3: time did they have to spend? And in fact, the
48:22
Speaker 3: head of the Public Defenders Association down there, I forgot
48:24
Speaker 3: what it's called, actually refused to let his lawyers handle
48:28
Speaker 3: any felony cases until he gave him more lawyers because
48:30
Speaker 3: he's said, I'm not going to just process people into prison.
48:33
Speaker 3: It's a very principled stand. I think they ended up
48:35
Speaker 3: giving him like eight or nine more lawyers. I mean,
48:37
Speaker 3: it's a drop in the bucket, but at least it's
48:39
Speaker 3: a little bit better. But yeah, that's the system that
48:41
Speaker 3: we're in, and as long as we're in that system,
48:44
Speaker 3: there's going to be another Malcolm Alexander every day, every hour.
48:49
Speaker 3: You just don't have a shot. You don't have a shot.
48:52
Speaker 3: So before we get to the star of our show,
48:54
Speaker 3: for the closing thoughts, Malcolm Junior, you've been through so much,
48:59
Speaker 3: I would love to get any anything that you want
49:02
Speaker 3: to share with the audience about, you know, any thoughts
49:05
Speaker 3: you have at all.
49:06
Speaker 4: Just never give up on your family.
49:09
Speaker 9: You know it'd be a rough road going through that
49:12
Speaker 9: and seeing someone you love that's incarcerated like that, knowing
49:15
Speaker 9: that they are innocent, and you have all kind of
49:18
Speaker 9: mixed emotions Like I said, you be mad, you be sad,
49:22
Speaker 9: and everything else and all above. But just stay prayed
49:26
Speaker 9: up and just keep hoping and wishing that something of breaking.
49:30
Speaker 9: Thanks to the Innocent Project. I thank them for everything
49:33
Speaker 9: they have done for myself, my dad and my family,
49:37
Speaker 9: putting him back in my life because I never thought
49:39
Speaker 9: this day'll come. So it's just like unbelievable for me,
49:43
Speaker 9: for my grandmother, it's like waking up to be able
49:47
Speaker 9: to talk to him. I don't got to be worried
49:49
Speaker 9: about waiting on the phone call. It's just just out,
49:52
Speaker 9: you know, I'm forty now. He went when I was two,
49:55
Speaker 9: but we still got a lot of time that we can,
49:57
Speaker 9: you know, share and him being here for my son,
50:00
Speaker 9: and so I'm just thankful that everybody, you know, most
50:04
Speaker 9: of my family still hear that can enjoy him and
50:07
Speaker 9: live the rest of our life with him, you know.
50:09
Speaker 4: So I'm definitely happy for.
50:11
Speaker 3: That your grandson will get a chance to hear this.
50:14
Speaker 3: And is there anything specific you want to say either
50:17
Speaker 3: about him or to him?
50:19
Speaker 7: Well, actually, I've been out there life. I've been out
50:22
Speaker 7: their life a long time, and for that I like
50:26
Speaker 7: to apologize not only to my son but also to
50:29
Speaker 7: my grandson. And I like to see that I'm really
50:33
Speaker 7: proud of my son for what he actually has done
50:36
Speaker 7: with his life and sending it over to my grandson.
50:41
Speaker 7: He done well with my grandson, but I can't say
50:45
Speaker 7: no more to either one of them out tied the
50:48
Speaker 7: fact that really I love him and being here with him,
50:53
Speaker 7: it's actually gonna give me opportunity to show just how
50:56
Speaker 7: much I really love.
50:57
Speaker 3: Him out the moment we've all been waiting for. And
51:03
Speaker 3: what else can you share with our audience.
51:07
Speaker 7: Well, he touched on something there and like I said,
51:13
Speaker 7: and being there. You know, you never lose thought of
51:17
Speaker 7: your family, and especially important that your family never lose
51:21
Speaker 7: thought of you. So usually like setting the gold for yourself,
51:27
Speaker 7: and your goal is to return back to your loved ones.
51:31
Speaker 7: But most of us actually never Like I said, I
51:37
Speaker 7: never felt I never realized how much that had affect them.
51:42
Speaker 7: You know, I guess I was so caught up in
51:43
Speaker 7: trying to get back to him, I never took the
51:46
Speaker 7: time out to think about how that affect them. And
51:50
Speaker 7: since I've been out and being like, man, y'all really
51:56
Speaker 7: missed me. You know, It's like y'all really kept love
51:59
Speaker 7: for me. You know, it just wouldn't saying it or
52:03
Speaker 7: even with the idea of just doing their things like
52:06
Speaker 7: seeing me money anything like that. It was like, we
52:10
Speaker 7: need you, and I guess see just nice and doing
52:17
Speaker 7: that you is really love.
52:21
Speaker 3: I guess that says it all. Yeah, all I can
52:27
Speaker 3: say about that is again, thank you for being here.
52:30
Speaker 3: I wish you all the blessings that life has to offer.
52:35
Speaker 3: You know, I hope you live to be a great
52:37
Speaker 3: grandfather and a great great grandfather and then everything goes
52:40
Speaker 3: your way. So thanks again for sharing your story, and
52:44
Speaker 3: to all of you Malcolm Junior Andessa, thanks again for
52:47
Speaker 3: being here and you've been listening to a truly extraordinary
52:51
Speaker 3: man and an amazing episode of Wrongful Conviction. Thank you,
52:56
Speaker 3: thank you, thank you. Don't forget to give us a
53:11
Speaker 3: fantastic review.
53:12
Speaker 4: Wherever you get your podcasts.
53:13
Speaker 3: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
53:16
Speaker 3: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in
53:19
Speaker 3: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
53:23
Speaker 3: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how
53:27
Speaker 3: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our
53:29
Speaker 3: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in
53:33
Speaker 3: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
53:36
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53:40
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53:44
Speaker 3: Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts
53:47
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