Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Understanding Adolescence with Deb Rubin, Part 2 | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 13

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Understanding Adolescence with Deb Rubin, Part 2 | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 13 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Motherhood Uncut.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: We are so glad you're here.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: In this podcast, Deb Ruben and I talk about all things motherhood related, the things that people don't usually want to bring to the table.
• 0:10
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• 0:19
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• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: We bring to you our own personal experiences, moms, as well as some research and data that might help you along the way.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here.
• 0:28
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• 0:29
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• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: We've got you.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Come mother with us.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: Hey there, listeners.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: This week I have part two of my really informative interview with Deb Rubin, my girl and co-host, about adolescence and really learning about what's happening for our kids during that stage of adolescence.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Today we dive into sexual development, sexual identity, and how to parent our kids through this really turbulent, confusing, chaotic, and sometimes triggering time.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: And as always, every time I talk to Deb, I walk away with like newfound wisdom and new ways of working with my own mothering in my mothering of my teens.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I have no doubt that this interview is going to leave you empowered.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to leave you with tools and ideas, even actually specific things to say, so that both you and your teens can feel connected, ready to take on the stage of life.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: And we really need to know how to manage these times that are so confusing.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, as always, pop in your earbuds, put on your shoes, sit down, pour yourself a cup of tea or a glass of wine, and get ready for another really, really engaging conversation.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: And let us know what you think.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: We are always looking for feedback.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: So send us a note on Instagram, send us an email, let us know how these conversations are going for you and share.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Always share with a friend.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: If you hear anybody or know anybody who can use information like this, we're all parenting together.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: It takes a village.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: So let's spread the love.
• 2:21
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• 2:30
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• 2:43
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• 2:47
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• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Leelainspired.com.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: We have a discount code in our show notes, and you'll both feel beautiful inside and feel like you're doing something good on the outside.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Hey there, it's Kate.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to think for a moment about yourself and whether or not there is something that you've been dreaming of doing, some goal, some change you want to make, something that's deep inside you have a yearning to lean into.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have a Take the Leap year-long program that I'm facilitating with leadership coach Ashley Wick.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And starts April 5th.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: We only have a couple of spaces left.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is a small, intimate, exclusive group of women who are ready to make shit happen in their lives.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And this is your last week to sign up.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: I have a link in the bio, sorry, a link in the show notes with a code for you that will give you a discount to this really incredible year-long program.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're thinking to yourself, I don't have the time, I really want you to pause and consider what the cost of not making that thing happen is.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: What time will be wasted if you don't make that change or reach that goal?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: How much money will be spent if you don't invest in yourself in this way?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: We believe in you, and this is a program we are where we are literally going to help you get there.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: So take a deep breath, get ready, take the leap, and come join us in this really incredible year.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, this is Deb.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: I want to remind all of our listeners that I am launching my first-time ever virtual workshop for the mother-daughter journey.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is a moms-only workshop for moms of daughters and those who identify as daughter that are middle school aged.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: As we know, we increase our compassion when we have a deeper understanding of what's going on.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: In this workshop, you're going to learn the ins and outs of what is happening for a middle schooler and tons of strategies to enhance your connection and increase your confidence and find some humor and levity in this journey.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: So please join me again.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: The promo code is Motherhood Uncut.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to work with you.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Deb.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: We're podcasting on Zoom today.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like people wouldn't know that if they weren't watching us on screen, but I'm just going to acknowledge that, like, here we are talking to each other over video.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, this is a first.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: This is a first.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: This is actually a second because we're part two of our interview from you last week because some things came up in our conversation around adolescence.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if for anyone who hasn't heard part one of my interview with Deb last week, I really encourage you to go back and listen to that because this will be a continuation of that conversation.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the things that we got into in that first conversation had to do with the evolution of a sexual self, of it of a sexual being, right?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: During adolescence.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we've gotten questions from our listeners about this as parents are watching their children evolve and emerge.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: Had a parent through this crazy time of becoming for our children.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: So we get to hear from you a little more this week as you talk us through some of these clunky spots in mothering.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Will you start us off, Deb, by just catching all of us up on this part of the conversation?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just this idea of evolving sexual beings, sexual selves during adolescence.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, I think where we left off was that really the nature, the biggest changes that happen in adolescence are this like bursting of awareness in every way.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: This idealistic thinking that comes in big time that's like, oh, I could have the perfect mom and you are not perfect.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that can cause this confusion.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I think I mentioned this last time.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: In that idealism, we know that down the road they're gonna learn very quickly that things are much more real and that that can be both liberating and disappointing.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: But right now it's actually really important and natural for them to be thinking in idealistic ways.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: So as parents, we want to actually meet them there.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's another way we get to pull out their curiosity and pull out their wisdom.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we talked about egocentricism, and then we talked about this explosion of sexuality.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say if we're kind of looking at adolescents as a whole, those are the four things we want to really pay attention to.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And all of that leads to this term that I borrowed from um Gordon Newfeld of the emerging self.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a beautiful expression because it really for me it softens my whole gaze around the irritation that we can often experience with adolescents because I can visualize them just blooming into these beings that are just so incredible.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it also gives me, like, you know, a moment to pause around when there's an empty milk cart in the fridge or when they like literally like walk past the recycling thing 17 times without bringing it out, and they forget things, and all of that is part of their brain, like pruning these old ways of being in the world so that new things start to blossom.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you think free with buds, new things start to blossom that are starting to become what's important to them.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, thank you.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's something else I want to say that I was one thing that you and I, Kate, we both really feel strong about is that on this podcast, we talk about hard things and we, but we also don't want to go into like the hard doom and gloom.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: We actually want to really leave our listeners with a sense of hopefulness, agency, some ideas, some curiosity, and compassion for the whole process.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I actually want to be really clear that I'm gonna talk about sexuality today.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: I am barely gonna skim the surface of some of the really intense parts of it all.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to remind us that this is not an emergency.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Parenting an adolescent is not an emergency, and it can often feel like one around sexuality and our culture and all the real shit that's going on in the world today, but it's not an emergency for most people.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are emergencies out there, but you know what I'm saying.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And if we act like it's an emergency, then we're going to give our kids a strong message that lacks trust.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And what they need from us more than ever is us to be trusting and solid and safe so that they can bounce off of us all the time.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so that doesn't mean that we don't have really important conversations with them regularly about oppression and sexualization and consumerism and all the things, all the craziness that's going on in our culture right now.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think it's important that we take a beat and just have for our listeners to have this conversation from a grounded place because our fears are real, but they don't leave us in a fear does not leave us in a place to have a good conversation, especially when we're talking about it with our kids.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: One of the questions I love most that I ask myself all the time, and I encourage folks to ask themselves all the time is what if this wasn't a problem?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what you're saying.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like we can go into these crazy, chaotic, uncertain moments with our adolescent children, assuming that there's a problem.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: And just that question, what if this wasn't a problem?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, this is uncomfortable and it may be dang inconvenient in this moment, but what if it's not a problem?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, just asking that question settles my nervous system because it means that I don't have to go into to your point crisis mode, right?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: I love that reframe.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: I actually think I need to be better at remembering that.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it won't surprise you or our listeners, but when I am, when I haven't got enough sleep, when I haven't moved my body, when I'm overworked, those are the times when that thing will happen with my teen that I have an obligation to, you know, be a part of or take care of or manage.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's those times when I'm depleted that I see them as problematic, right?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And to add to that beautiful list, because I can totally agree, but is when I like get immeshed or entangled in their pain, that's when I actually can't have perspective that they need.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: They need me to lend them perspective in those moments of getting super hooked.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: So what we're both talking about actually right now is the importance, you know, of tuning into our adult selves, right?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think I said this maybe in the last or some time, but I constantly remind myself, I am an adult, they are not.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Adult, they are not.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I literally was walking around the house cleaning up the house this morning after breakfast, saying it out loud, like giggling to myself, because that is such the essence of this.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And when we're talking about sexuality, you know, we're actually talking about our own maturity.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And this is something I was talking about last time is that I had a really immature part of me that needed to be tended to in order to really look at my kids with true curiosity and trust in their developmental process.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that means not projecting like my story of my developmental process onto them.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is really, I mean, this is black diamond ninja parenting, but it's like we all have the potential to practice this and even have aspire to working on this.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: I know personally I'm working on it every day right now.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just want to play with that a little.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think it can also just to add to that, it's much more fun when we're seeing our children as different from us and not the same as us.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: Meaning, if I can see my kids as going on their own journey, they're not, I'm not, I don't have to relive mine through them, right?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's just their own journey.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: That parenting is more creative, it's more fun, it flows easier, it's more effortless.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: The moment I bring my own shit to the table and then try to, you know, I don't know, combine the two shit storms happening at once and what is the moment it becomes tedious and overwhelming and irritating and annoying.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And mothering can be really fun.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Mothering teens can be really fun, right?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it can be, definitely.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, especially when we're talking about sexuality, so many of us have trauma around sexuality, big T's, little T's.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it can be as extreme as sexual assault and severe abuse, and it can be a little T of being sexualized, of being looked at inappropriately, of being on display and getting attention that you weren't ready for.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And these are this is actually um when we can really project our fears when we haven't really even tended to those in our traumas.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I I guess I also want to remind all of us that this is a time as parenting, when you're if you're parenting an adolescent, to start to do some inner work around that, because that can get really murky as your kiddos becoming a sexual being.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Will you take us?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Let's dive in a little bit more to this.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a place I would love to start, although I don't know that we need to spend that much time here, but you made a comment last week that I've been thinking a lot about about this a way in which our teenagers' bodies may be changing and growing and developing at a different rate than their emotions are.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because you made this really very clear cut and obvious statement, which is yeah, you know, the moment a girl gets her period is the moment her body is capable of carrying and having a baby, right?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: So physically her body is quote unquote ready for motherhood, but the psychological and emotional piece around sex and sexuality may not be in line with that.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I find that concept interesting.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering if you could just take a moment to speak to that.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts on that?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, first of all, when I want to remind all of us that we are sexual beings from the moment we are born to the moment we are we die.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's an interesting reminder.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, because sexual beings doesn't mean we are actively having sex.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: It means we are in touch with our bodies, we are in touch with our genitals, we have a sense of who we are, we work with our gender, we work with our sexual orientation.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's this whole big encompassing and senses, we're in touch with our sensuality.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, all of that is under this beautiful umbrella, right?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: What happens in adolescence is things drastically start to change because we do have this capacity to procreate.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what I want to actually mention is that bodies are developing quicker than their minds and maturity.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is this is where it's very, very confusing.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna talk about the culture in a moment, but the culture does not help this because young people are mimicking adult sexual behavior, and we're actually, as a culture, being irresponsible in many ways because we're not honoring kids' maturity levels of where they're at.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just gonna bookmark that and come back to it.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: But what's but to your point, what it's just so damn damn confusing for them.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: So in confusion, we know that things are really murky, and we have to be really patient with that confusion.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's where I think as parents, we I want us to hold this perspective that can again kind of lend to what you were saying before about bringing some compassion, bringing joy, have giving space, not getting caught up in their story because they're so confused.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing I have to say that's really fascinating for girls right now is girls are starting to bleed as early as eight years old.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right now is 12.5.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's the average age that people are getting their period.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: But one really popular misconception is that when they start bleeding, that they're also ovulating.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, most girls don't begin to ovulate regularly until like two years after their first period sometimes.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: I did not know that.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, right.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is really important because what's changing is their estrogen levels in our culture right now, and that's what's bringing on their period.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it's just something of note that we say procreate, but if they're not ovulating, they're not actually procreating, able to procreate.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so again, it it just leads to all this confusion, you know.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's a lot of theory around why, and I'm not gonna go down that road, it's not my expert, but there's a lot of ideas around that.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the thing around this confusion is that when young people are confused, we want them to come to us.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And as I mentioned before, we're living in a time where peers are replacing adults in the lives of many children.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And this is fundamentally changing society to make it hypersexualized.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because the influence of media and just where the media is where so often people are learning their sex education, that lateral relationship is it's actually it's hypersexualizing.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually not honoring their confusion in their maturation process.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it makes sense and it's terrifying.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting because let me tell you what's going through my mind as you're talking, which is a little conf I it's like confusing for me because I think in many ways what you're saying is if I combine our conversation from last week, it is normal and appropriate for adolescents to go to lean into their friends for identity, for belonging, right?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: That the the real that that is part of the reality of this stage.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: And what we don't want as parents is to drop out of the picture so that all the only place our kids get their sense of belonging and sense of self is through their friends, especially because today in 2023, teens, kids, adolescents have so much access to information that is like more information that they need.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's false information, it's inappropriate information.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so, as parents, if we give quote unquote too much space for that, if we check out when they lean into their friend groups, we miss the opportunity to be the ones to educate them.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is that part of what you're saying?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: You got it.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: That is so spot on.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the only thing I would just change a little bit is checking out is one extreme.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: I actually want to encourage parents to feed the family attachment more than we think we should be.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: So at your point, yes, it is totally normal to lean into friendships.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And and let me actually differentiate something.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: In the middle school years, the family system is still the center of their worlds.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: It is still their inner circle.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: So as kids are like really kind of playing in the sandbox with all these other peers in middle school, if if a kiddo is not finding their people, or which most of them aren't, you know, they're floundering around, they're doing all these things, that is really very normal.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: We I don't want us to think that the peers are more important in these younger years.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to be really clear about that.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: And even in freshman and sophomore years where people are like, okay, it's it's all about the friends now.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yes, it is, and it is still really all about the family, too.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like well, and what I'm noticing for my high schooler, my 10th grader, that those friend groups have not really stabilized yet.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of coming in and coming out, there's a lot of movement.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so I get, I'm seeing what you're saying in a new way as you describe it this way, because what is consistent is us.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: So those friends can come and go.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: They can have, there can be drama, there can be, you know, moving over to this friend group.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: But when they come home, when she comes home, she rests in this familiarity and stability and trust here.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, when they are getting their really important proximity needs, meaning a sense of closeness, a sense of being seen and met, a sense of belonging.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: The things, when they get that at home and they're not getting that consistently out there, they will be more resilient out there.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Checking out, like you said, it's extreme.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: We want to raise the bar even higher for us.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to work harder these days because of the culture we're living in.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's where I feel just really strong.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's this other piece, and that we part of this stage of adolescence is there's a deep hunger for closeness, but it's really confusing because they're also wanting separation from family.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: But if they're all if they're already peer-oriented, meaning you are seeing that their peers are overriding the family values, the family needs, the family, you know, communication.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: That is a red flag for you to actually, it doesn't mean you're screwed at all.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: It just is an invitation to come back, but go backwards a little and find new ways of being together as a family.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Find different ways like of connecting before directing, like we ended the last talk on.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, find different ways of really listening.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they are seeking and hungry for closeness and they're getting it from their peers, then we should be fearful that they're going to lean into sameness and a quest to feel normal, and that that is going to make them make sexual decisions that are not, that are just not coming from a place of love and connection and more of a place of wanting to fit in and be normal.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: That was going to be my question.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you just said that because when I hear you say, my question was because kids at this stage are yearning for closeness and connection, is that part of where they get confused between what that means?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I'm asking the right question, but how does that overlap with this curiosity around sex and sexual connection?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: So the curiosity of sexual connection and they are freaking horny, okay?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Is really that's all really normal.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: The curiosity, the feelings, the masturbating, the crushes, the this, the wanting to be close, and all of that is really important.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: What we want to help them be conscious of is their behavior, their decision making, of the having a voice and not getting caught up in sameness and fitting in and coming back to what do I want?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: What does my body telling me?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: How do I choose someone that really makes me feel good?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually like another place where parents, it is our job 100%.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: It is 100% our responsibility to be the ones having that those conversations with our kids.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's like they are gonna long for closeness.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: All of that is within the range of normal.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: We want to start to pay attention if they're seeking it outside of the family more than not.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then let's dive in a little more to what it can look like when what the risk is.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk more about what the risk is when our when our teens look for it and long for it mostly with their peers.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think of the stories I hear about young girls, as young as middle school, but certainly in high school, giving a lot of blowjobs, right?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's just one example, right?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: There's plenty of examples.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's just the one that comes to mind of how there can be this sense of belonging, right?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: This sense of being part of the crowd, this sense of doing something that will make someone like you more, right?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that kind of, I mean, we have these conversations in our house all the time, as you know, but I think so many of us are so afraid to even brute broach the subject.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: But this is what happens, isn't it, when we're not really talking about the decision making and the actions around this.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Can you speak to that?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, you just said it all.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, it's like so what you just described is someone trying to find them sense of their sense of self outside of the family.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so where we have a the power of the family strength is to really, again, I know I sound like a broken record, but meet them with curiosity and really not and not judging and criticizing when they are showing vulnerability to us and they are opening, that is your like moment to just lean in because that's where they feel seen and reflected.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if they are getting that consistently from us, mixed with, like you said, healthy communication, they are they might still totally explore.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and that's none of that's wrong.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that there's a way to slow it down a bit and give them more, they we want them to be a little more deliberate, because that's kind of one of the things that we're really losing.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And this is actually another piece of um the reason I said we need to kind of this is a time to really deal with our own stuff, is because if we are having blocks around how to communicate, around sex, sexuality, body safety, awareness, all the things, then they are gonna lose trust in us if we can't hold it and they're gonna go seek it out from someone else.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if you as a parent don't feel like you can have that conversation, then you need to find another trusted adult in your life that can help you have those conversations.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is where the village mentality of adults and hierarchy is unbelievably important.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: So they're not getting it from their peers.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also struck when you're talking about that around the value of having our community to talk to.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just say it's a community of mothers to be mothers of both boys and girls, right?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm aware that my lens in this conversation is around mothering daughters, right?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a way in which, as mothers, we're all in this together, right?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: Whether we have mothers or sons or daughters, in put in how we're talking about this, so that our children, regardless of how they identify male, female, who their partners are, are all coming at this with the same sense of stability and health and curiosity, right?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: That we're really educating all of our kids.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: My lens from the moment we started this talk was for all genders, really.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I know.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just reflecting.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm my questions are coming as a mother with daughters, right?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you bring up a great point.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: I from one thing I named at the end of our talk last time was that we want them to have feelings.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Feelings are really good, and vulnerability is really good.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, vulnerability is important because it captures the aloneness, the insecurities, the loss, the sadness, the discomfort that's all coming from this differentiation process.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: But when kiddos are distracting themselves from those feelings, they're becoming hardened to vulnerability.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually another place that then they start to lose their senses, they start to lose their pleasure feelings.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: They, you know, they they lose that sense of connection.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing we know about sexuality starting before they might be ready, like having sex or having like oral sex, you know, everything under the umbrella of sex, not just intercourse.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, um, it the nature of sex is creates a potential for more wounding.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: And this is something we we can't protect our kids from, but where it becomes a red flag is that if the wounding happens, then they start to lose this vulnerability.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something we want to be really mindful of.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: We want, we want them to feel not get defended against it.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Are you following?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: This is leading, yeah.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's great.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's leading me into wanting to to really wanting you to talk to our listeners about this topic.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: You and I have been talking a lot about, you know, I have a child who's a sophomore in high school, and you know, I think it is um a big active conversation in our family around choices and ideas and thinking around sex and sexuality.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it won't surprise our listeners to know that I, just like you, actually do I actually have learned to talk to my kids this way and to be open through talking with you and learning from you.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: But it's you know, it is a fluid conversation in our family.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: You reminded me a few weeks ago when I was beginning to feel anxious about some things, that the most important conversation to be having with my daughter was less around whether or not it was okay to have sex or to be sexual, right?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: And more around how to say no if you change your mind.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: And let's dive into that for a minute.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: So glad you brought it up because again, I I don't want to come at it from a place that of suits to be super scary.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: I want to really encourage us all to just be normalizing and having the conversations.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so, because then we're gonna actually be, we are gonna be more, we are gonna be louder than culture.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so what guys and girls and non-binary are not learning comfortably is to say no.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: And or and that saying no is actually really difficult for them.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so, because there's for all different reasons.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: I actually had a group of girls in my living room the other day, and we were talking about what what gets in the way of saying no.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: And these girls were said all sorts of really important things, but so the the question is when you change your mind, things are going in a different direction than you want them to.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: How can you be prepared to redirect without breaking the connection?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because so often it's not, it's they still really like the person that they're with.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's just there's like they're not attuned.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: And this is like, I'm gonna digress for one sec, but this is a problem with you know, porn and even TikTok and the things where they're getting messages of fake sex and not seeing what communication looks like and softness and giggles and farts and all the things that you know can happen in sex, right?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: And to be like, oh wait, I actually don't want to do that anymore.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: This doesn't feel good anymore.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's really a huge part of sexuality.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the conversations I want us to be having with our girls.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: And granted, these conversations and boys and non-binary, these conversations have to be short, sweet, and regular.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I want you to really keep that in mind.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is not a let's sit down and have a really heavy conversation.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: You will lose them.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want that.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you meet them where they're at.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: You might even pepper it in while you're chopping the vegetables and not making eye contact, you know, or if there's a moment before they're going out, you say, like, hey, let's revisit some language that you have.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear you say it out loud of what you're gonna do when you change your mind, or how you want to start the the the the action, you know, you can do that.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: That is all right.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: That is your you are a hundred percent capable of doing that, and it is your body and it is your responsibility.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I love what you said about how to how to advocate for yourself and say no when you're changing your mind without losing the connection.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because when I think back to my adolescence, my teenage years, the times that I would continue engaging in some kind of sexual behavior, sex, or you know, whatever it is happening with a boyfriend, the reason I wouldn't say no is because I would be afraid if I said no, that would be it.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's that it's that both and it's that, yeah.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: How do you say no?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: How do you advocate for yourself in a way that either keeps that partner interested or allows you to continue the conversation later about maybe going back to that space that you left off later at another time, right?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: But what's your how do you advise?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: A great one is like if this is true for the person, hey, I really like you, but things are moving a little fast.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or I really I'm really having fun, but can we slow things down a little bit?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Or not even can we?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: I would like to slow things down a little bit, you know, or can we go back to just kissing?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: I really like just kissing.
• 36:42
  unknown: Yeah.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: And to actually hear those words come out of their mouths because in the moment we freeze, right?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: And when something is happening to your body that you are not comfortable with, most people freeze.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that is where sexual traumas come in over and over and over again, because suddenly the sex feels like the weapon and it's a really scary place to be.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I have to say something else that's kind of controversial.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I I don't know how this is gonna land, but it's it's it's been kind of I've been thinking about a lot.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: And this is that we like we like controversy to a point.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so um there we are in this time right now around sexual liberation, and there's so much beauty in it, right?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much openness and you know, fluidity.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not and I'm not specifically talking about gender identity and orientation.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking there just about being a sexual being in the world, expressing your body, having less shame around clothes, and you know, really like de-shaming the way we are seen as sexual beings.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now, with that comes like this invitation of the hookup culture, okay, which is a really big thing happening all over the world, really.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: But North America is extreme, and um, and it's way starting in middle school and then going well into college.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing about the hookup culture is that you know, the the youth are like, yeah, it's just not that big of a deal, you know, like we hook up, no one wants to be tied down, it's cool, we do da da da.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that a lot of people are flowing with it and moving with culture.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the thing that's really confusing.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: When two people have sex, whatever that kind of sex they're having, there is the hormone of oxytocin that gets released, and that and other hormones in the brain that get released.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And those hormones in science are like super glue.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: They connect people together.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's a bonding hormone.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: And science will say that there's actually no such thing as casual sex, but culture is saying something very, very different, and this is confusing.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is really confusing, and it creates this incredible vulnerability, possessiveness, jealousy that doesn't always mean love, but it does mean that you're kind of attached to that person.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: And this is like, so it's interesting because I there's no, I or I you can hear myself like tripping over my words because it sounds a little like sex, the values of sex based on science are more conservative.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like sex was meant to create union, but our culture right now is saying, you know, sex is just it's just a thing, it's not that big of a deal.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just want to like open that up for people to consider and think about.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone's gonna have their own opinions around this, and there's lots of different ways to look at it, but I personally think it's worth having the conversation with yourself, with your partner, with your kids around this contradicting nature of culture and science.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: God, it's so good.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: I actually, as you know, I'm so fascinated by the science behind our minds and our thinking and our emotions.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: And you're speaking to something that I've often wondered so much about and talked about, which is just when our when our our in something inside of our body is doing something that's so different from what our mind is telling us, right?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is a we could go in so many different directions and we won't because there's but there's so many examples of this.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: And this is part of what I hear you saying.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: The reason I think it's so important is because back to how we started in interview number one around understanding adolescence, is it's so fucking confusing, right?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you're someone, you know, you and I, I'll say it again, although by this point in this podcast, our listeners know this.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: There is no right and wrong.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: There are a million ways to view ourselves in the world, right?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: But if we, if I am someone who really intellectually believes in, you know, you know, being with many different people, right?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: And especially if I'm a kid, right, and I'm sort of thinking about, oh, I just want to fool around with different people, right?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: My brain believes in that, but my body is sort of getting hooked the way you're describing, where there's an emotional attachment somewhere, or if in a physiological attachment to a person, that's so to one person, that's so confusing, right?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's so confusing.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree with you about wrong and right and and open all the openness, but I a hundred percent think that we cannot rely, and I've said this before, on schools, friends, or the internet for our kids to learn about sexual responsibility and sexual education and what it means to be a sexual being in the world.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I also think that it is never too young to start these conversations, which is so amazing because next week we have this interview with Feather Birgauer, who's going to talk to us even more about how to empower our kids to advocate for themselves to protect, you know, instances of sexual abuse.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's really actually, I hadn't even thought about the transition between these podcast episodes to that one, but it's perfect.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: So perfect.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, I think what you're reminding us in this conversation is the importance of really do taking care of ourselves so we can be neutral and curious so that we have that pathway into having those important conversations with our teens.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's been when I was starting to really like dive into teenage sexuality, I'd start to do some research of my own of like who has the healthiest um outcomes in the world.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you know this, but it's Scandinavia.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, only three out of a thousand teen girls become pregnant there a year.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, where I think in in the States, North America, it's like 41 out of a thousand every year that are.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um, the reason why is that they have early sex education starting in kindergarten.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're open about sexuality and see it as a positive part of life, and they have easy access to birth control STEI testing, and they really teach that children that they need to prepare for this part of life.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so that kind of goes, I want to turn everything on its head and really emphasize the importance of a sex positive home.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, this how I started.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: If we come at this from all fear, then we are not going to be living in a sex positive way.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: And sex is beautiful, it's accepted, it's full of pleasure and joy and playfulness, you know, it is.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: It is part of being a human.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's something that when we have a sex positive home, then we're open to having the conversations where all genders are accepted, sexual orientation is accepted and honored and celebrated, you know, and like and being a sexual being is celebrated.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's like why I want to give you like information so you can have your eyes wide open, but then you come back to this place of really celebrating sex, right?
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, I love it.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's a kind of cool segue into you know what I would just ask adults listening to what would make your home more sex positive, and what can you do today to think about what might get in the way and to remember that being sex positive is not saying go out and have sex.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I used to work in comprehensive sex education, we would say this is a condom and this is how to use it.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: We're not saying go use this condom to have sex.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're just knowledge is power, and we want to give our kids lots and lots of knowledge about everything from emotional to physical and everything in between so that they can go out in this world equipped with tools, and that is on us.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: Deb, you're a gift to all the parents out there.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for sharing all of this.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I will say it again.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: I have had this conversation and similar conversations with you dozens and dozens of times.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I walk away with something new every time.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll just put a little plug into my workshops that we do a much deeper dive around really talking about sex talk tips and identifying your own personal values so that you can come to the table with confidence.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what it's all about.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: I want all of us to feel that sense of confidence when we're having any hard conversation.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, honey.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Deb.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: I love you.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: I love you.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love you too.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: See you next time.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, you guys, it's Kate.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: We really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: And if you did, go ahead and share it with a friend.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: It also would mean the world to me and Deb if you would take a minute and write a review.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: If this podcast makes you laugh, makes you cry in the best of ways, helps you feel less alone, gives you information that's useful to you in your mothering journey.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you write a review, it will make this more accessible to other mothers like you.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: So take a minute.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: We'd be so grateful.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here.