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Convene Series: Designing Events for Everyone: Laura Nelson on Sober Inclusivity and Wellness · PCMA Convene Podcast

• Convene Podcast Transcript Laura Nelson on Sober Inclusivity and Wellness *Note: the transcript is AI generated, excuse typos and inaccuracies Magdalina Atanassova: This is Season 10 of the Convene Podcast brought to you by Louisville Tourism! In this season finale, we’re diving into an important conversation about inclusivity, wellness, and event design. My guest is Laura Nelson—an author, speaker, and educator with over 20 years of experience transforming industries. Laura is the founder of Front Office Rocks, Vice President of AI, Training and Development at Mango Voice, and co-founder of Sober Life Rocks, a movement advocating for sober-friendly choices in professional settings. Laura shares why alcohol-heavy networking can unintentionally exclude attendees, how planners can create more inclusive experiences, and practical steps to balance socializing with wellness.. We start now. Hi, Laura, and welcome to the Convene Podcast. Laura Nelson: I'm excited to be here. Thank you. Magdalina Atanassova: What inspired you to create Sober Life Rocks? And by the inclusive event planner and why now? Laura Nelson: So I, in my day job, am a speaker. I travel to lots of conferences. I've been doing it for 20 years, going to events, going to the evening events, and partaking all of the normal activity around conferences. And in 2020, I stopped drinking. And it was right before COVID So, you know, I stopped drinking in January, Covid hit in March, and the world shut down. And so when I stopped drinking, I didn't have the pressure of, you know, having to go to restaurants in order or go to an event and all of the alcohol that. That flows at these things. But the couple years after Covid, when I got back on the road and started speaking again, I started going to the events and, and not that, you know, I was necessarily triggered in the sense of like, oh, no, I can't be around alcohol. But I saw it from a different perspective. You know, I would, I would speak all day at the conference and then I'd be looking forward to the evening event because that's when I could connect with attendees and really get to know people. And, you know, we go into a conference room or to a bar or whatever, and we all stand around and everybody's drinking. And, you know, the first half hour, hour is fine, but then it gets just kind of like people are on their second or third drink. And I found myself going back to my hotel room early many nights where before I would stay out and be part of the conversation. And so that's really where things kind of started spurring in my head. I was a couple years of doing this and I was on my way back to a hotel room, my hotel room one night. And I am a creator in my normal world. And so what I had done when I got sober was I started a TikTok channel where I was talking about my sober journey. Because stopping drinking is, you know, there's challenges to it, right? No matter where you are on the spectrum, alcohol use disorder. And so I had a TikTok channel, and somebody stopped me that I knew I had known for years in the lobby of the hotel and said, I saw you on TikTok and you're part of my sober journey. And initially my heart dropped because I thought, oh, no. Like, somebody in my industry knows I'm sober. Like, oh, no. And then I thought, that's the problem. Like, what does it matter, right? This is my decision to drink or not drink. And he said he was six months sober, and I was one of the people that he followed to help him, you know, guide him through this. And he and I sat down for two hours that night and networked. Just. It was the best conversation we ever had. And so that was really kind of the spur of the start of Sober Life Rocks because my. My business partner and I have another founder in this. We both feel that, you know, people who don't drink, that's a choice, whether it's recovery, religion, health, just never drink, whatever. But in our business environment, at conferences, events and stuff, many times we hide that. We don't talk about it. We put a lime in the drink because we don't want people to ask us what we're drinking. And there's more people not drinking than we actually know. And many times it can feel very lonely when you're at one of these events because you think you're the only one not drinking, when really there's a good percentage of people now who are waking up to the fact that alcohol just doesn't serve them. Why do we have to keep this quiet? And that's really kind of how Sober Life Rocks launched is not necessarily to get people sober. It's everybody's choice. But there are a lot of people who are sober, curious, soberish, maybe don't want to drink at events. They, you know, they only want to have a glass of wine at home at night. Well, why do we have to have such a emphasis on alcohol at the events? And that that's really where we launched Sober Life Rocks. Magdalina Atanassova: I love your message and the path that you've walked. So thank you for really voicing what. What's happening in your own life and inspiring others. Also, for planners who may not realize how alcohol heavy some event environments are, what are some common signals that their event may be unintentionally excluding sober guests? Laura Nelson: I love that question. So as we progress through Sober Life Rocks, I wrote the book the Inclusive Event Planner, and I wrote that book specifically for event planners. Because as a speaker, as my. You know, I was working with event planners and the. And the meeting planners, they would ask me, like, what do you want at the bar? Like, what. What should we offer? And I appreciate that, but many times it's beyond the bar. Like, in my book, there's only two chapters where I actually even talk about the bar. Like, what do you offer? And how do you have your drinks? The rest of the chapters are about the actual conference and the way the conference is set up and. And how to make it inclusive. So the issue is, up till now, there's been this whole idea of being anonymous, right? Like, we don't talk about whether we're drinking or not. There's pressure when you drink. I mean, people who know, why aren't you drinking? Are you pregnant? Are you in recovery? It's like, what do you care if I drink? Right? So many people are choosing not to go to events, and we know that attendance is down in some conferences or lots of organized events, because the things that we. The content, we could get online. We could see those speakers online. We could learn from them on their social media, right? We go to the events for the connection. And if the connection is all focused around the bar and alcohol, many people choose not to go. So meeting planners probably don't see. Unless they are also sober or have somebody on their team to see how alcohol is the thing that we tend to throw at events, right? We'll have a bigger bar, a longer bar. We'll have it on the exhibit hall floor. We'll have a happy hour. And the issue is that's excluding a good percentage of people. I mean, the latest study in the United States is 50% of Americans are not drinking or trying not to drink. So there's a percentage of people who aren't raising their hand saying, I'm not coming to your event cause I don't drink. They're just not going to the event. So meeting planners, really, the first step is just kind of looking at what can you do to make your event more inclusive. Because the reason we do so much around the bar one is tradition. It's just the way we've always done it, right? So we have to kind of stop that. The second thing is that it's. It is hard for people to network. It is hard to connect with strangers. It's been hard since we were in middle school, right? Like, it's hard to walk up and go, hi, I'm Laura. What do you do? So the more that we can make the event Easier for people to connect from the minute they show up. Having. Having it easy for people to meet people. Having meetings around coffee, have networking around lunch, have games or questions at the table, or ways for people to learn about each other to make it easier. Now, this doesn't say, get rid of the alcohol. Nobody's saying that the bar should go away. Just don't make that the focal point. Find ways to do things that interest people in being there and connecting and have the bar be the sideline, which is great. And have better options at your bar, which I can talk about. But if your event is focused on the happy hour, focused on the evening event, focused on the drinking, that's probably where you could take a step back and say, hmm, what else could we do? Which I've outlined in my book, a whole bunch of ideas to make it a little bit more inclusive for everybody. Magdalina Atanassova: Sitting here nodding a lot just because I'm one of those people that you described that I never had interest in alcohol. I don't like it. I never drank. So for me, events have. Especially the social part, the evening part has always been hard. And I've always felt so much pressure. Like you said, why are you not drinking? It's like, why do you care? Laura Nelson: I'm gonna show you. People can't see this, this cup. But what my cup says that we now have on our website is don't ask me what's in my cup. Like, it shouldn't matter what's in my cup, right? Like, that's the thing. We have that pressure. Like, why aren't you drinking? It's my decision, right? Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, exactly. But it's also, it creates a, I think, an invisible divide just because you start experiencing the networking in a different way than those who drink at some point, like you said, after the second drink, it becomes a whole different story. So how can planners balance socializing and celebration while offering a more inclusive experience for attendees who choose not to drink? Laura Nelson: So you bring up a really good point. So many times the evening event is focused on the bar, the fun, the excitement, right? Which is totally fine. But those who are choosing not to drink may not want to be in the loud DJ and the big band that's loud. So you can do things as a meeting planner to make it comfortable for everybody. So the first is really kind of the invitation, right? Making sure it says mocktails and making sure that there's. People know there's going to be options. Then for the actual event, having. Having an overflow space, not a kid's table, not a Separate room that's like for Zen. Right. But an overflow space. So I envision like at a hotel. And I have pictures of this in my book. You have the conference room and the DJ and the whatever, and then you have tables and seats and couches out into the lobby outside, or, you know, the area outside so that you and I could sit down and have a conversation. And there could be music in there, and maybe it's 80s music, and I love 80s music. And my song comes on, I can run in and dance to my song, but then I can come back out and have a conversation. So part of it is looking at the, the environment so that there are places having an easier furniture to walk up to, like move a chair over and. Because sometimes the furniture is just so set that it's really hard to walk up to a bunch of strangers and go, hi, can I sit here? Whatever. Right. The other thing is then looking at the entertainment. Not starting at level 10, like start at level four for the first hour, then level five. Right. So have it become. Because over time, those who are drinking may want to stay out longer and be louder and stuff. That's fine. But in the beginning, let's include everybody. So ramping up the entertainment. And then the other thing is really around the entertainment. Like, I was just at an event recently that, that followed my guidance and they really did an amazing job because they went from party, party, party the year I was there to afterwards. What they did is they had. They had a comedian for the first hour, then we had like an 80s cover band for the next two hours. And then at 10 o' clock, they had Tito's Vodka, had a club and. But everybody got to be involved and then decide when they wanted to go. So thinking about those kind of things to make it easier for people to want to stay and be involved and listen to the comedian or do the karaoke or find things that make it fun and connection versus yelling over the noise. Right. And putting everybody standing around the bar just holding drinks and talking. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. Or trying to balance a glass and a small plate. Laura Nelson: Right. Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: And have a conversation. Laura Nelson: Yep. Magdalina Atanassova: I mean. Laura Nelson: Yep. The other thing too is. And for those that are. Are thinking about this, because a lot of times you and I kind of mentioned this earlier, before we started recording, you know, you don't see it until you see it, till you're part of it. Right. And so some of it is, you know, since I've been on the side of not drinking, I noticed that people use the drink to, you know, when they, when they're using the alcohol cause they're helping themselves network, right? There's, it's like a social lubricant. It's the, it's the, the currency of connection. Once you get that drink in your hand, you haven't even taken a sip, but you feel more courage, right? You have the drink. So make it easy for everybody to, to get a drink in their hand without a big production. Like have mocktails, have alcohol free versions of what everybody's drinking. Because it's really not about the elixir that's inside of the drink. It's really about we want to be just included with everything else, right? So that's where it comes down to what do you offer and having the right option so people feel like they're seen and included. Magdalina Atanassova: Have you seen practical, handy ways of informing attendees in, in advance about the options? You know, and not making it awkward? Laura Nelson: There's, I mean, mocktails, I don't know how it is all over the world, but mocktails is an easy way to say mocktails and cocktails, right? Social hour, you know, something where it's just clear that you are identifying and seeing the people who don't drink. Another thing would be to have to make networking options. Not just in the evening, have a networking option over coffee or when people arrive to your conference or a lunch event when people can see if you like. For you, for example, like if you are deciding to go to an event and you see that there's options to go in the morning and meet people and walk into an event and know people versus waiting till the evening, it's like a subconscious way to say, hey, we, we want to give you lots of options to connect. And again, that's why we go. AD: In Louisville, the most powerful moments don’t happen at a podium — they happen around the table. Louisville’s bourbon and culinary culture is built into the destination experience — helping planners create meetings with unforgettable moments guests actually talk about. From immersive tastings to chef-led storytelling, the f&b experience brings the city to life for attendees. Learn more at GoToLouisville.com/meet. Magdalina Atanassova: I would add to this, sometimes you're also not as open to meet people in the evening, right? If you are spent, you've spent the whole day learning, engaging with other humans and at that point you're just like, okay, can I not have to deal with the loud music, you know, the small spaces, trying to eat standing up? So yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent. If there were morning options for networking, sign me up. Laura Nelson: Well, the other thing too is when we go to events, you're going for connection. And the first day, many times you don't know anybody, right? You go to listen to the speakers or go to the things. What if I walked in and you and I met and we knew some friendly faces and then when I go to the evening event and I can go up and talk to other People that I've met. So we don't have to wait. It can be, it could be a. The afternoon before, offer options like just start thinking around the fact that we go for connection. And many events I think are so focused on the, the, the speakers, the evening event, the entertainment, which is great, but there's still a lot of people who aren't. They're getting on a plane and flying to your event. They're going to be with the other people that are there. So find ways to make it easy for them to connect and network with other people at your event. Magdalina Atanassova: You're right that sober inclusivity is part of broader dei. How can planners help stakeholders see this as a critical piece of the equity conversation? Laura Nelson: So this is a discussion and the reason that I'm doing these interviews and getting out there, because unless you have some issue, somebody in your life that's important, somebody on your team, it's not seen that way. And there's a whole movement now of sober creators like me who are really trying to spotlight this because it is important and it is. There's, like I said, as you start to see the amount of people who pop their head up and say, yes, we need more of this, that's really where the spotlighting comes in. I personally am very interested in conferences and events. I have other, you know, peers in this space who are interested in HR and in the, in this, the area of, like, within your businesses. I have other, you know, people who are within the mocktail space trying to get it into restaurants and having more options there. So we actually, with sober life rocks, are hosting our first conference in January specifically around this movement, amplifying sober voices. So it is not there yet. But if you ask anybody, anybody about alcohol events, right, Everybody has a story about how their industry is the worst, or they know somebody who has, who is an alcoholic and now in recovery, or they have a horror story from someone in their family who. Or they there. It's prevalent in so much of our life that I feel like the world is just starting to wake up to say it doesn't need to be. It doesn't need to be gone. Like smoking. People still smoke. Cigarettes are still here, but we don't see the big billboards anymore that say you're going to be cool if you smoke. We don't see. We just need alcohol to be put in its place. And by doing spotlighting like this, by talking about it, part of it is the pressure of big alcohol. I mean, they, you know, meeting planners will know. I mean, there's there's quotas that hotels and, and conference centers have to meet when it comes to alcohol. And so a little bit more pushing I think is how we're going to make, make this change. So I wish it was easier than just, you know, saying something, but it's gonna, it's gonna take a little bit to get through. Magdalina Atanassova: And do you feel that planners still kind of other non drinkers and they kind of exclude them of this shared experience? Laura Nelson: Yeah, and that's the hard part that I find is those that, you know, like the conferences that I've spoke at, they'll say, hey, you know, what do you want at the bar? And I'm like, my thing that I talk about is have similar options to what you're giving everybody else, but have alcohol free versions. Right. But what happens is a lot of times I show up at the conference and they're like, how did we do? And in the corner there's some sticky sweet lemonade and some kids sippy cups and they're like, this is the, the alcohol free version. Or I go to the bar and they're like, well we have Coke or diet Coke or whatever. And I'm like, I want to drink something similar to what everybody else is drinking now. Five years ago there wasn't as many options. Now this movement is so large there, even the large alcohol distributors are having non alcohol options. There are so many options now. So it's a matter of, of, of just starting. I, I equate it to people with food allergies. Do you remember when you go to a conference 10 years ago, you'd have to go to a special table to pick up your food and, and now you sit down and they know exactly who's gluten free, who's not allergy, right? Because somebody, I don't know who started spotlighting this, saying this is important, this is important, this is important. That's where we are with alcohol. It's just, this is important. And I know a lot of events are planned a year in advance. This is a great time to start talking about like how can we make the next event more inclusive? And then on the flip side, I want more people like yourself, like me, like other people to say we actually want better options. One of the things that I suggest is when you fill out the registration for an event where it says special food, food allergies, I don't want alcohol, I want better non alcohol options. Like we need to as a movement to step up and tell event planners, please just give us better options. So that we can be included too. I love it. Magdalina Atanassova: The first thing that I was thinking when you were speaking was exactly being a vegetarian 10 years ago and being given the salad or the side dish of what everyone else got, it was embarrassing with horrible. And these people were starving and now they have all these beautiful choices. And actually in this isn't. I've spoken to so many planners and venues and destinations who are now focusing on plant based first. So we're completely flipping the script. And I like what you're saying. How about just doing the simplest thing, including the registration form and open the conversation. Let's see what your audience wants. Laura Nelson: Yeah, because a lot of times we're working with food and beverage, right. Or the, at the conferences or the hotels and stuff. And they have a quota. They have to make money. They. But if they know a quarter of the people are going to have NA options and, and then they get the good NA options, NA being non alcohol options, they're going to make sometimes more money on that. Right. Because we're not having to put alcohol in it and the cost so the actual profit could be better. But, but what happens is if they. I was in an event where I, I knew they had NA beer and I went up to the, to the black bar that they rolled in and I said, what do you have that doesn't have alcohol? And he says we have NA Corona or something. And he didn't have it sitting on the bar. Right. You know how they have the beers and the wine sitting on each side? And I said, well, it's not sitting here on the bar. And he goes, well, we only have 5, 5 per bar. For me I'm like, first of all, if I don't want people to put a focus on me not drinking, I want to be able to point to something and you hand it to me. I don't want to have a big conversation. Secondly, I wouldn't have known he had non alcoholic options behind the bar because it wasn't. I just knew because they told me it wasn't spotlighted and then they didn't have enough. They had five. Now I get why would they buy 50 per bar if people weren't drinking them. But if we understand that there's a percentage of people at this event who prefer to do that because we tell them when we show up we have a nut allergy and we don't drink alcohol, they'll then buy enough so that those who want to partake in a N a beer or wine or something can do that. And it's a win win. But we really got to start spotlighting and then talking about it. Magdalina Atanassova: Speaking about this, how can venison caterers be part of the solution when it comes to sober friendly options? Laura Nelson: So I would recommend I have my book which is the Inclusive Event Planner and it's a free download. You can buy it on Amazon. But the, the first step is really just to become aware, to start. Because if you are not somebody who is sober or has stopped drinking or, and and now more and more people are trying to stop drinking. So I think it's becoming more aw. You may not even know where to start. So it's really by first learning all of the signs. I have a, I speak on this at conferences, I spoke at a couple of marketing and event conferences and I have a picture of. I don't know if you have this where you are, but we have like a fair every summer in all the towns, right? And in the fair when you go in, they have deep fried corn dogs and deep fried Twinkies and onion rings and all the things that's fun most of the time unless you're on a diet. And when you go in on a diet and you're trying to lose weight and now you see deep fried this and deep fried that, all of a sudden it stands out. Well, that's the same for people who don't drink. When you go to a place, you may not see it, but when you're somebody who doesn't drink or is trying not to drink, it is everywhere. Just like the deep fried, the deep fried bad food, right? So the first thing I would say is really kind of start seeing it. And now more and more that I talk about this, people who do drink are talking to me later going, I see this now. I'm noticing it. It is everywhere. And, and that's really the first step. We can't fix what we don't know, right? What we're not aware of. So for any meeting planners, any event planners, the reason I have the book as a free download is because I'm really just trying to get people to see it right? And then we can start to work with every alcohol brand out there probably has an NA version. If they don't let me know I have options in there. I have great companies, but it's really just starting to push against the norm and saying we want to do better. Ask the people who are in your space, in your environment. There are going to be people who say, no, no, no, we need all the alcohol. We have so much fun at that event. But there are going to be people like you and me who will say, yes, please, let's have some better options too. And when you find that then, then you want to do better for the people because now you're connecting to a human that says they want better options. So I don't have an easy answer. That's why I'm out talking to so many people about this, because I think that this has got to be a movement that we've got to do. Magdalina Atanassova: By the way, I will link in the show notes to the free download because I think it's very important people get it, read it, be inspired by it. Laura Nelson: Yep. Share it, give it to others, tell other meeting planners and event planners that you know to read the book. It will help. Magdalina Atanassova: Exactly. And I think you also touched on something with a deep pride. Food. What's the link between sober inclusive design and broader concerns around attendee wellbeing? Laura Nelson: There's a big movement towards wellness. I'm seeing lots of conferences that are doing, you know, wellness and they're having yoga in the morning and all the things, which is great. But there's many, many, many conversations around wellness that are not including alcohol and I should say alcohol and addictive substances. There are other addictive substances that play a part in this wellness discussion, but alcohol is the most prevalent because alcohol is the one that's everywhere that people. Nobody says to you, oh, you stopped doing cocaine, why? Like, they would say, congratulations, good job. Like, how can we support you? But when you say, I stopped drinking alcohol, they're like, why? Right. So it is definitely a peer pressure drug, which is what it is. So the thing about wellness and health is that we could talk about breath, work and yoga and mindset and all of the things, but if you still go at the end of the day home and drown your sorrows or numb your pain in a bottle of wine, it's kind of like a catch 22. It's not. Right. So the addiction and alcohol conversation is part of wellness, but it's hard to address because societally it's normal to. I mean, like, if you go to the doctor and they say, what are you drinking? You say, a glass of wine at night. They say, that's normal. Is that normal? Is that okay? Right. There's lots of research that's showing it's not good for you. So it's hard to have this conversation, though, because. And there's a great person we have speaking in our event. He's been talking about this. Andy Ramich is his name. He's actually out of England. And he talks about how, you know, you may be, or society may be drinking and not addicted. Right? Not rock bottom, not I have to stop, whatever. But when you do try to stop, you're psychologically connected to it, right? Because, oh, it's easier to have that glass of wine at night. It's easier to grab a glass of wine at a networking event. It's. And so when we are psychologically attached to it, that's part of your wellness discussion. Because alcohol numbs and takes you away from really being present. There's, you know, there's all the reasons that people drink. But if you really are looking to try to be mentally and, and, and physically better, you do have to address the alcohol discussion. Right? Doesn't mean you have to stop. That's your choice. But you do need to realize that alcohol is part of that discussion. Magdalina Atanassova: A hundred percent is very socially accepted. So for those planners listening who want to try this at their next event, what are the first steps to do now to get started? Laura Nelson: So the first thing that I would say is you definitely can reach out to me. I'm here as a, as a. This is my, this is my passion project. I would say having somebody like myself who doesn't drink to. Even if it's just look at your event as a whole, to look at the space, the planning, the evening event, the bars, and just get an outside perspective because we get so trapped in. This is the way we've always done it. And it's, and it's good to get an outside perspective. The second thing I would say is that really challenging every step along the way to say, are we being inclusive? Is our invitation inclusive? Do we have events where people can network at the beginning or in the middle of the day, not just nearly. Only at the end do we have the right type of space to make it easy for everybody in the evening to stay around and be included and be involved. And then the last thing I would say is start pushing now on having alcohol free options and be very, you pay the bill. You are the reason that the conference of the hotel is there. They will push back and say we will have some mocktail sticky sweet thing that we have to push them to say, no, we want NA options or alcohol free options that are similar to what everybody else is drinking because people want to be included. That's probably the biggest hurdle that I'm finding is that even if people are trying, the hotel or the conference says, okay, great, we have it. And so you check off a box and you say, great, they're going to have something and then we show up to the event and it, their alcohol free option is Coke or, or, or, or lemonade. Right. So that's probably the hardest thing that I would start now because there are contracts, there are relationships, there are quotas and, and honestly, if this is something that a meeting planner really is finds important, if they don't do it right this time, you can go somewhere else. And when enough hotels or conference centers see that people are leaving and going somewhere else because there are better options, then they'll pay. It's about, it's about the bottom line, it's about the money. So. And it's definitely going to take a little bit of pushing back, but we can do it. I mean there's so many good options now and there's so many people who are waking up in this space that just ask around and there are people who can help guide you. Find some people who are, who are not drinking or trying not to drink and have them be involved in it. Magdalina Atanassova: If it's an association, reach out to your board and see if your board can support you in this. Laura Nelson: You know what surveying would be really good on that. You know, survey your attendant, you know, attendees, your, your whoever is coming to your and ask. And I guarantee you are going to find a good percentage of people who, even if they do drink, you know, they may want to have one glass of wine and then switch to a non alcoholic option. Right. But a lot of times we don't have that. So then they drink a second glass and a third glass and they wake up in the morning and they're tired and they don't show up to the events. Right. So even people who drink may be open to, you know, not wanting, or maybe they don't want to drink at a business event or an association event, they'll mark too and let you know and you'll find that there's a good percentage of people who would actually be excited about having better options. Magdalina Atanassova: Wonderful. Was there anything we didn't mention and we definitely should before we wrap up. Laura Nelson: I would say that if you are hearing this for the first time and think that's interesting, you know, I don't think that's going to happen. It's happening there. This movement is, it's a wave across the globe. Luckily it's just like cigarettes, right? We used to, remember we used to be at a plane and you could go sit in the, sit in the smoking section or the restaurant section. So get ahead of it, you know, don't, don't. Just listen to me. Go. Go. Follow. You know, if you come to Sober Life rocks, you can see our conference that we're having. Some of the biggest influencers in this space are speaking at our event. Follow some of them. Look around. This is definitely something. And get ahead of it. I think that you're going to be happy if you don't ignore this message and you actually get ahead of it. So it's, it's definitely coming. So for if you're listening, I hopefully I motivated you to really take, take some action in this because I think every conference that I've talked to that I've helped is thankful and grateful that they did it and so are all their attendees. Magdalina Atanassova: Thank you so much for the message. It's very important. I'm a hundred percent with you. I hope more planners hear your message and take action because I think we're late. We're definitely late. We should have done that 10 years ago, but hey, better now than later. So thank you so much for being on the podcast. Laura Nelson: Thank you for helping me spread the word. Magdalina Atanassova: Remember to subscribe to the Convene Podcast on your favorite listening platform to stay updated with our latest episodes. We want to thank our sponsor, Louisville Tourism. Learn more at GoToLouisville.com/meet. For further industry insights from the Convene team, head over to PCMA.org/convene. My name is Maggie. Stay inspired. Keep inspiring. And until next time.