Latest / State Of Mind Mental Health Podcast / #105 - Talent Moves Needles. Mindset Moves Mountains With Professional Athlete Mindset Coach Sandy Cohan

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#105 - Talent Moves Needles. Mindset Moves Mountains With Professional Athlete Mindset Coach Sandy Cohan · State Of Mind Mental Health Podcast

• 0:00
  Sandy (00:00)
• 0:03
  I think when you strip it down, whether it's an athlete, a leader, a manager, a CEO, there is the concept of preparation, worry, handling pressure, handling fear, navigating adversity, understanding that outcomes
• 0:06
  you know, output is going to equal input. I believe that mindset is the foundation of everything. Right. It's like you think about a big building like I don't care what you're what you're trying to put on the first floor, the second floor, maybe the first floor is you want to be a better public speaker. The second floor is.
• 0:09
  you know, you want to build a big business or you want to be the best basketball player, whatever it is. If your profile is that building and nothing, none of those floors matter if the foundation of the building is not built in the strongest possible manner.
• 0:12
  Mike Stroh (00:50)
• 0:15
  hello, Sandy. Thank you so much for joining me and sharing your wisdom and insights with us today. Can you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are and what brings you to this point in your life?
• 0:18
  Sandy (01:02)
• 0:21
  Yeah, my name is Sandy Cohen. ⁓ I am a professional mindset development coach. I think a lot of people would maybe recognize that under the title of a mental performance coach. I...
• 0:24
  stay away from that phrase because I think the assumption is that something is wrong with you or you're broken if you require mindset work. But the majority of my background is in sports. When I was a hockey player, when my hockey career was over, I spent many, years
• 0:27
  on ice training, pros, college players, skill development, best of the best. ⁓
• 0:30
  At that level, right, everybody has game, everybody has jump, everybody can do everything. I really started wondering why were some making it and others weren't. And when I say it, I'm really just talking about maximizing their potential. So I really got deep into the mindset and mental performance piece. ⁓ fast forward, you know,
• 0:33
  almost 10 years ⁓ written three books, do a lot of speaking. ⁓ Athletes, CEOs, executives, conferences love having an impact talking about ⁓ mindset, belief, attitude, grit, focus, emotional control. And I would say any high performers or high achievers, right? think mindset is the foundation of the building. It doesn't matter what you're trying to stack on top.
• 0:36
  ⁓ So that's how I spend my time. ⁓ Absolutely love it and ⁓ wish that some of this, I wish I knew this stuff when I was younger.
• 0:39
  Mike Stroh (02:58)
• 0:42
  I was just about to ask you about that actually. maybe you can tell us how it started for you.
• 0:45
  Sandy (03:01)
• 0:48
  You know,
• 0:51
  part of it, right? Obviously it was a different time. I'm not saying it was better or worse, but it was a different time. So I think there was a little bit of a grittier, more tenacious ⁓ environment. Life was just, it seemed to maybe a little bit more challenging when we were kids. I think I might be a little bit older than you, but. ⁓
• 0:54
  Mike Stroh (03:27)
• 0:57
  Maybe.
• 1:00
  Sandy (03:28)
• 1:03
  And I'm not going to ask. ⁓ But ⁓ yeah, I I was a really, really talented player on the smaller side, ⁓ but was like obsessed with outcomes. You know, I was very, very outcome focused and outcomes, of course, matter. ⁓ But looking back on it.
• 1:06
  I wish that I had known how to be more focused on the actions and behaviors that lead to the outcomes, right? So ⁓ I think probably like most younger players, concept of what success actually meant versus what it didn't mean, what does focus mean versus what it doesn't mean. So.
• 1:09
  I think there was some gaps looking back. I I certainly grinded hard and it got me really, really far, a lot of levels through high school, college and playing in Europe for a couple of years. ⁓ But ⁓ I always knew that there was something missing. And once I got old enough to kind of look back, you know, I wanted to try and help do something about it. I think that
• 1:12
  Hockey is the vehicle that I use, but I think I'm probably more like in the help build better human being business. ⁓ But ⁓ so yeah, I mean, I don't think my mindset was anything special. I was just tenacious. I was scrappy. I loved hockey. ⁓ But I didn't have all the tools. ⁓ it just kind of was what it was.
• 1:15
  Mike Stroh (04:54)
• 1:18
  Yep, yep.
• 1:21
  Sandy (05:12)
• 1:24
  I've tried to spend ⁓ my adult life trying to help younger people get those tools because adversity is coming, no matter whether it's sport or in school or wherever. ⁓ So not just how do we prepare for it, but what do we do when it happens?
• 1:27
  Mike Stroh (05:32)
• 1:30
  Yeah, think one, you mentioned the difference between today's kids or athletes and perhaps when we were younger, that sort of tenacity in that almost, it's not aggression per se, but there's something that's just not there or not encouraged often in people. And ⁓ yeah, yeah.
• 1:33
  Sandy (05:55)
• 1:36
  I agree 100%. I
• 1:39
  know you can probably relate to this, right? We all want our kids to have a better, easier life than what we had.
• 1:42
  It's hard though, right? There's a line between is the goal really to not let them ever fall or is the goal to teach them how to get back up when they fall? know, and somewhere in like the protecting of our kids, because I deal with athletes all day long. ⁓
• 1:45
  Mike Stroh (06:21)
• 1:48
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:51
  Sandy (06:30)
• 1:54
  I've noticed that and I think they're bigger, faster, stronger, more skilled today across the board in any sport. But I don't know if they have that grind element that I think was just maybe more cultural when we were younger. ⁓ But it can be built, that can be taught. ⁓ But environment I think is very, very strong.
• 1:57
  and parents play a big role, coaches play a big role. And I think the discipline has been confused a little bit with motivation. I think discipline, yeah, think motivation I think fades, like discipline builds, and I think a lot of younger people. ⁓
• 2:00
  Mike Stroh (07:12)
• 2:03
  Hmm. Yeah, can you explain that a bit? Yeah.
• 2:06
  Sandy (07:25)
• 2:09
  you know, they're surrounded by social media. They see the highlights. They don't see the grind behind the highlights. You know, pick your sport or pick anything. So I don't know if a lot of them understand that the reason why we grind today is not because there's going to be a payoff necessarily tomorrow. That's not the way it works. We grind today because eventually when you add up all the grinds,
• 2:12
  Mike Stroh (07:34)
• 2:15
  Ahem.
• 2:18
  Sandy (07:52)
• 2:21
  that gets you to achievement. ⁓ So discipline comes with habits, comes with ⁓ consistency, ⁓ but it's not immediate. And it's not supposed to be immediate, but ⁓ it is cumulative, you know?
• 2:24
  Mike Stroh (08:12)
• 2:27
  How did you?
• 2:30
  I guess become transition from being the athlete, et cetera, to incorporating this sort of mindset shift or ⁓ all the psychological skills and things that you talk about and teach. How did that become your job, I guess? Yeah, like how, yeah.
• 2:33
  Sandy (08:36)
• 2:36
  I yeah so
• 2:39
  I left ⁓ home when I was ⁓ pretty young went up to a prep school up in New England because I wanted to continue playing hockey at a high level you know so as as the pond that I was playing in got bigger and you realize that you're really not the biggest fish anymore ⁓
• 2:42
  I remember this. was really aware of... ⁓ There were people who were more skilled than me that I was encountering just as you level up. And ⁓ it wasn't their fault, but they couldn't outgrind me. They couldn't outwork me. And I think I learned early that that discipline...
• 2:45
  I've always thought that skill, think, is a little bit overrated. Talent is overrated. It matters. But talent can move needles. Mindset is what moves mountains. ⁓ So for me, it was really on the practitioner side, just implementing it ⁓ and seeing it, that there were people who probably certainly could have gotten more playing time than me. ⁓
• 2:48
  It was probably more survival. What did I need to learn how to do to compete? And that I think ⁓ is something that I don't know if that environment is as prevalent than when we were younger. The concept of being a competitor, right? Competing. It's not always supposed to go great. ⁓ You can win ugly. ⁓
• 2:51
  you know, it doesn't have to look like what you see on YouTube or TikTok. Like you can win ugly. The goal is to win. So that's when I think I started becoming.
• 2:54
  Mike Stroh (10:35)
• 2:57
  Yeah.
• 3:00
  Sandy (10:39)
• 3:03
  It just, I think it just kind of grew from there.
• 3:06
  Mike Stroh (10:42)
• 3:09
  And do you have any, did you have any particular coaches or teachers or books or where did you, I guess part of my question is also, and maybe I'll ask you after, so many of these concepts of determination and I love this word constancy, which is like patience and persistence. These sort of mind skills, if you will.
• 3:12
  are pretty universal across disciplines and applied differently, at least in my opinion. And yeah, I guess I'm just curious how or and what type of teaching you had or coaches that helped you really learn that stuff.
• 3:15
  Sandy (11:23)
• 3:18
  I'm so lucky, first of all, I give so much credit to my parents. I would say that my parents are, they're still alive, thankfully. They're probably more on the alpha side, like they still are, even in their retirement. They're just tenacious people. Not always the greatest decisions, but they're tenacious. So I know I learned early on.
• 3:21
  Mike Stroh (11:37)
• 3:24
  Yeah.
• 3:27
  Sandy (11:45)
• 3:30
  value of
• 3:33
  doing the work, you know. ⁓ I remember distinctly getting a very bad grade on a test, like in seventh grade or something, sixth grade, and I was trying to explain away the results to my parents and my dad, few words, but he was just like.
• 3:36
  you you got out what you put in. Like you didn't study. That's why all the other stuff you're trying to say, like that's not right. You didn't study enough. so I, I remember learning it then, but I was very fortunate, throughout my playing career that I, probably I was attracted to it, but I always played for coaches who I think made details matter. ⁓
• 3:39
  They were strict but fair. So the environments, I think, reinforced that hard work matters, ⁓ that showing up matters, and that no one really cares about the fall. They care about the get back up. And that's life. ⁓ So I was lucky, and I always said to myself that if I was ever going to get into the coaching part,
• 3:42
  That would be at the foundation of what I did. I wanted to help people find another gear that maybe they didn't even know that they had.
• 3:45
  not so much by letting other stuff go, but by locking in on what matters. And I think that's really the key to high performance.
• 3:48
  Mike Stroh (13:19)
• 3:51
  And yeah, what would be?
• 3:54
  Sandy (13:21)
• 3:57
  So like you're a player. It's so prevalent. I ask so many young players a couple of questions. And certainly if it's an adolescent boy, like under the age of 14, you can relate to this. Like, hey, how'd you play? Good. You know, it's like one word and then it ends, right? So for me, I always get to say, help me understand what good means. I don't know what that means.
• 4:00
  Mike Stroh (13:21)
• 4:03
  Maybe edit, yeah.
• 4:06
  Sandy (13:47)
• 4:09
  And there's like no, that's where the conversation ends. There's no, there's no target, right? So the first thing is it's very hard to track progress, to make adjustments, to celebrate wins. ⁓ But before we start even thinking that you didn't play well, I don't even know, you got to help me understand what play well means. Like you need to know it, right? There has to be a target. ⁓ So I see a lot of that.
• 4:12
  Mike Stroh (13:53)
• 4:15
  Right, right, right.
• 4:18
  Sandy (14:16)
• 4:21
  ⁓ And then it's always like a case of the don't do's and I understand it ⁓ But a lot of times pregame thoughts or pre compete thoughts or pre whatever thoughts You know, okay Don't be nervous ⁓ You know
• 4:24
  Don't turn the puck over, don't turn the ball over, don't say the wrong thing at the meeting, don't, don't, don't. And I know we're trying to educate ourselves and give ourselves parameters, but that's not how the brain works, right? I, Simon Sinek, very famous, you he says, the brain doesn't comprehend negatives. So if I say to you right now, okay, don't think about an elephant.
• 4:27
  Like you just thought about an elephant, right? So younger people have that challenge, no doubt, you know, the don't do's and it's a one little tiny shift makes so much difference.
• 4:30
  Mike Stroh (15:10)
• 4:33
  Yeah, indeed it does. ⁓
• 4:36
  How?
• 4:39
  How do you help people or players or whatever ⁓ with the shift from focusing on the things they're doing wrong, perhaps, which as you say, it does matter to know what your weak points are. then shift and train the here's what I need to do and focus on type of idea. How do you help them hold that, that, I don't know, whatever balance, I guess.
• 4:42
  Sandy (15:40)
• 4:45
  Yeah,
• 4:48
  well, I don't think it's a both and. So for a lot of players, performers, athletes, what they think they're not good at, I don't know if they're not good at them or not, but maybe it's just an area that is going to get better with more time spent. Right. So one view is it's a problem. It's the reason why things aren't happening. The other is
• 4:51
  you know, maybe this is just an area that can get better. Like that's called development. I mean, I work with lots of pros on basics. They're pros. they can't not do skill A, B, or C. That's just a skill in the off season that they want to get better. So.
• 4:54
  Both of those things can be true. There can be great things and things that we're working on to get better. It's not like this has to bring that down. So I think the first thing is I don't spend a lot of time working on trying to identify the weak points. I really try and highlight and help performers understand well what
• 4:57
  What's the identity? Like, what are the strong points? Who are you? What does it mean when you flip that switch and it's time to perform in any venue? And that shift alone is big. know, focus is about locking in, not blocking out. Right? So what should they be focused on helping them understand that right now is the most important moment?
• 5:00
  shift or last meeting or next game or next week like right now has to matter most and if right now matters most you know just by elimination you you can't have the other thoughts because that's not how the brain works the brain can't think all those things at once so we spend a lot of time on identifying what success means identifying what type of performer they are what are their skills ⁓
• 5:03
  and then getting them to understand what focus means. How do we lock in versus block out?
• 5:06
  Mike Stroh (18:05)
• 5:09
  And so maybe I'll unfairly use my son as an example, a guinea pig. Yeah, OK, so he's a big kid for his age. His main area of improvement is skating or speed. He has good edges, et cetera, but he's not very fast. And the main reason for that is he
• 5:12
  Sandy (18:13)
• 5:15
  Let's go for it.
• 5:18
  Mike Stroh (18:32)
• 5:21
  does not feel comfortable bending his knees more and getting lower, right? He's still sort of skating around like that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah.
• 5:24
  Sandy (18:39)
• 5:27
  Yep. Yep.
• 5:30
  Also, let me ask you,
• 5:33
  hit the pause button right there because I literally, I literally hear this multiple times a week from parents, players, coaches. The first thing I always ask is everything you said, that could be true. I'm sure that there's parts that are accurate about that.
• 5:36
  If I were speaking with him, I would ask him, is that true? Did somebody tell you that? Is that what you think? Right? Because that stigma starts to follow, right? Every hockey director coach says, Hey, little Johnny or little Sally work on skating fundamentals and stride and all that sort of stuff. ⁓ so it could be true. I don't know, but that does build, ⁓
• 5:39
  Mike Stroh (19:11)
• 5:42
  Yep, yep.
• 5:45
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:48
  Sandy (19:25)
• 5:51
  some negative space in the head. Like we go into it thinking, we're not as fast. Our mechanics aren't right. When of course those things could be better, but once that puck gets dropped, I don't think anybody's sitting in the stands analyzing stride mechanics, right? It's like, find a way to get from point A to point B. We can maybe help you more efficient, but
• 5:54
  Mike Stroh (19:28)
• 5:57
  Yeah.
• 6:00
  Sandy (19:53)
• 6:03
  you might look like a spaz, whatever. I mean, what does that matter? So the first thing is, is that even a fact? And for younger people, helping them understand that thoughts are just thoughts. Thoughts aren't facts. So I always help.
• 6:06
  Mike Stroh (20:02)
• 6:09
  Yep, yep, yep.
• 6:12
  Sandy (20:14)
• 6:15
  Suggest to people that they try and deal in facts before you go down the rabbit hole of whatever it is Is it true? I don't know if it's true or not. But if you don't know it's true, you're making a pretty big leap ⁓ So that's that's a big one but Somewhere along the line someone probably told him that That becomes a focal point for him. Maybe it's used if he doesn't achieve
• 6:18
  That's like an easy answer to go to it's comfortable for everybody Right and The other thing is I would ask him. Well, what does what does playing well mean? Is he a forward or a defenseman? He's a forward so I guarantee I guarantee that if you went to him and said
• 6:21
  Mike Stroh (20:46)
• 6:24
  Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Yeah.
• 6:27
  He's a forward left wing, yeah.
• 6:30
  Sandy (21:08)
• 6:33
  You know, what are the three foundational parts of your game? Like, what are you known for, whether you like it or not? Like, what type of player are you? And what does success mean? I would bet he either doesn't know, it would be inconsistent each time you asked him, or like most, he would talk points. Assists, goals, outcomes, that's right.
• 6:36
  Mike Stroh (21:30)
• 6:39
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 6:42
  or outcomes as you said yeah yeah yeah yeah
• 6:45
  Sandy (21:38)
• 6:48
  when,
• 6:51
  I don't know, maybe he might say, gosh, I'm not having a good season because I'm not getting a lot of points. If that was the case, I would kind of unpack it a little bit and say, well, what is it that leads to scoring goals? What actions and behaviors lead to scoring goals? Well, shots. Take chances, right? Make plays, take chances. Go hard to the net.
• 6:54
  So it sounds to me like it's just a numbers game that if that becomes the focus, it's like enough. You do that enough times that's going to start leading to it, but those are all controllables. So you got, you got to wind it into what can we control versus what do you have to let go versus what can you impact?
• 6:57
  Mike Stroh (22:26)
• 7:00
  Yeah. Yeah. The first just it's almost a mindfulness practice type of thing of are those thoughts even real and where are they coming from? And and yes, that is my opinion. Perhaps not his. mean, he does acknowledge that he's not as fast as most of the kids his age. So he is aware and.
• 7:03
  And he does not or those questions aren't often asked of him and they're not common, which is probably why you are the type of person that you are and provide the services you provide because those things, yeah, they're not common. Yeah. Yeah.
• 7:06
  Sandy (23:08)
• 7:09
  I would just say like hypothetically, hypothetically,
• 7:12
  if I was speaking to a parent named Mike from Toronto and he had a son who was 13 and played hockey and had those challenges, I would bet that there could be big change if the focus, if the topics shifted and if there was almost no time spent on
• 7:15
  Mike Stroh (23:15)
• 7:18
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:21
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 7:24
  Sandy (23:35)
• 7:27
  potential deficiencies and more time spent on identifying what it means to be a competitor and what are we going to focus on today? Not like getting faster or whatever, but you know, every, every performance practice game showcase, try out everything. There has to be a purpose and intention behind it. And I mean, that's just classic.
• 7:30
  We know that it's easier to say that as an adult, but at that age, 13, whatever, it doesn't have to be like a laundry list of things, but when he flips that switch to turn himself on, I don't care if it's a practice or a game, whatever, it has to be about something.
• 7:33
  Right? It has to be intentional. Like, what am I going to be known for today? Okay. Outwork everyone. Everything's at full speed. ⁓ Make plays take chances. Like, that's the mindset for practice, for games, whatever. Like, those are the controllables. So I think the more time that's spent identifying the controllables and the things ⁓ that when they do them, they have impact.
• 7:36
  Perception of self changes. Confidence changes. We shift more into belief versus confidence, right? Belief is what leads to confidence. ⁓ And then I think that concept of the skating, which may or may not be true, that just becomes something that it's like, okay, ⁓ I can always work on my shot.
• 7:39
  I can always get stronger in the gym, but that's not the reason why I am or am not performing. That's just something that's going to help me get even better.
• 7:42
  Mike Stroh (25:31)
• 7:45
  And is that an example of what you were saying earlier, the idea of focusing on something as opposed to not focusing on other things or like focusing on the controllables and.
• 7:48
  Sandy (25:42)
• 7:51
  Yeah, I...
• 7:54
  I would bet that a part of him somewhere, and I only know what you've told me, you know, he's, when he's getting ready to compete, he's probably thinking like, don't skate upright, don't not bend your knees, don't, you know, it's, and when we do that, we're almost inviting ourselves to go back into that place and then try and like clutch and claw and fight your way out of it.
• 7:57
  Mike Stroh (25:49)
• 8:00
  Yeah.
• 8:03
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:06
  Yeah,
• 8:09
  Yeah.
• 8:12
  Sandy (26:14)
• 8:15
  I didn't know it at the time, but when I was younger, my grandmother used to say, you know, don't have to get sick to get better. didn't, I was like, whatever. I didn't even know what she meant, but as I've gotten older, I fully understand it. ⁓ know, so if he is lacking confidence, that tells me that he doesn't have belief, right? So.
• 8:18
  Mike Stroh (26:25)
• 8:21
  Yeah.
• 8:24
  Sandy (26:41)
• 8:27
  I didn't come up with this. Someone else told me this ages ago. But if you think about a tree outside, what you see above ground, that's confidence. What you see below ground, that's belief. So in that example, what you don't see below ground. So in that example of the tree, right? Like no roots, no tree, no belief, no confidence. So so many younger people, I think, are chasing this concept of wanting to feel confident.
• 8:30
  when the way to get there is tapping into belief. You're not trying to convince yourself of good things. You are reminding yourself of past skills, great games. You it's almost like you have that internal highlight reel. So if you were to ask your son, give me the best play you made last year. Maybe it was a goal or a great backjack or.
• 8:33
  whatever when the crowd went nuts family was there everybody saw a team mobbed him and I bet if I was speaking to him he would he would smile and I would say yep you got the memory right yeah you probably remember the rink where you were you probably remember what jerseys you were wearing you can remember the crowd and he'd say yeah yeah and I'd say well how does that feel like you get a little fire in your belly yeah yeah
• 8:36
  Mike Stroh (28:05)
• 8:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 8:42
  Sandy (28:06)
• 8:45
  and say, well, do you know what that feeling's called? That feeling is called confidence. But not because you set out to be confident. We just tapped into something that you've already done before and brought it forward.
• 8:48
  Mike Stroh (28:21)
• 8:51
  And how would you how do you define that belief kind of idea? ⁓ Is it some sort of in line with what you've been saying in terms of because I focus on the things I can control and I'm aware of kind of my assets, I can remind myself of that process or that those mechanics and those allow me to Yeah.
• 8:54
  Sandy (28:46)
• 8:57
  what a time
• 9:00
  when it has worked before, when you have achieved before, you don't even have to go assign all of the, did I skate fast or when did this? Give me a time before that was successful when you felt.
• 9:03
  Mike Stroh (28:55)
• 9:06
  Mm-hmm. Right, right, right, right, right.
• 9:09
  Sandy (29:05)
• 9:12
  your worth when you proved that it could be done, that you did it, that you accomplished it. And that's why, and that goes for anybody. It's human nature that we spend so much of our time trying to convince ourselves, right? But convincing starts from a place of not believing.
• 9:15
  Right? Like, I got to convince myself that I'm good enough. Well, what if you just thought about a time when you actually did it, you proved it, it worked. And if you spend a second thinking about that, the feeling that you get inside, there's no more doubt. That's belief. So belief is the foundation.
• 9:18
  Mike Stroh (29:49)
• 9:21
  Right.
• 9:24
  Yeah.
• 9:27
  And how, when belief, I guess, gets...
• 9:30
  broken. don't know if this is a fair example. ⁓ The Toronto Maple Leafs might be. Yeah, you know, yeah. So ⁓ yeah, we got destroyed in I think it was game six and seven by the Panthers last year. And talent wise.
• 9:33
  Sandy (30:04)
• 9:36
  yeah, I know where you're going. I know where you're going.
• 9:39
  Mike Stroh (30:17)
• 9:42
  I guess, I don't know if that's, yeah, yeah, I don't know if that's a fair example to use, but that idea of when things start going wrong, if you will.
• 9:45
  Sandy (30:18)
• 9:48
  I'm intimately familiar with this situation you're describing.
• 9:51
  Mike Stroh (30:29)
• 9:54
  how it can spiral or how it can sort of be redirected to, yeah.
• 9:57
  Sandy (30:35)
• 10:00
  holding on too tight,
• 10:03
  ⁓ not playing free, being preoccupied, and more than anything, I think the Toronto Maple Leafs over the past 15 years have been a prime example of ⁓ not playing the play, but playing the consequence.
• 10:06
  And the Florida Panthers, I know what you're talking about. I'm down in Florida. I spent a lot of time with that club. ⁓ They played free. It's not that they have nothing to lose. They have everything to win. And they weren't thinking about consequences. They were just playing the play. Control the controllables.
• 10:09
  I think a good thing for people to remember is that everything in life has to fall into one of three buckets. It really is this simple. You can either control it, you can impact it, or you have to let it go. The irony is that we try and spend a lot of time controlling the things that we can impact and outcome. Like in hockey terms, you can impact a shift, a power play.
• 10:12
  a back check, you know, but you can't control the outcome of the game. You know, you can't stop all the shots, breakout passes to yourself, score all the goals, never rest. Like at some point you gotta, you you take a breather. So you can have a lot of impact, but the only way to have the impact is to control those things that you can control, which ultimately come down to your belief, your attitude, your grit, your focus, your emotions.
• 10:15
  your discipline and your awareness. That's it.
• 10:18
  Mike Stroh (32:25)
• 10:21
  Are you familiar with the serenity prayer? Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's sort of a similar notion. I guess I should just say it out loud in case people listening aren't aware. Grant me this or God, however you want to say that. Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. ⁓ Yeah, it's a lifesaver that one. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓
• 10:24
  Sandy (32:28)
• 10:27
  Yes, absolutely. Yep.
• 10:30
  That's right.
• 10:33
  Absolutely.
• 10:36
  Mike Stroh (32:56)
• 10:39
  Maybe outside of sports perhaps, if you're working with people in a corporate environment or maybe even helping coaches, I guess, which is in sports, who knows, whatever. ⁓
• 10:42
  My intuition is the principles are the same, the application or the context is different or how might you help somebody in a different kind of context.
• 10:45
  Sandy (33:18)
• 10:48
  I think when you strip it down, whether it's an athlete, a leader, a manager, a CEO, there is the concept of preparation, worry, handling pressure, handling fear, navigating adversity, understanding that outcomes
• 10:51
  you know, output is going to equal input. So yeah, that's why I believe that mindset is the foundation of everything. Right. It's like you think about a big building like I don't care what you're what you're trying to put on the first floor, the second floor, maybe the first floor is you want to be a better public speaker. The second floor is.
• 10:54
  you know, you want to build a big business or you want to be the best basketball player, whatever it is. If your profile is that building and nothing, none of those floors matter if the foundation of the building is not built in the strongest possible manner. so I don't care who you are or what your
• 10:57
  daily tasks are, your job, or your setting. Everyone deals with those things. Everyone has self-doubt. ⁓ Everyone has to perform under pressure. Everybody has to work on focus. ⁓ So yeah, the first book I wrote was a book called 99 Rules Every Athlete Needs to Know.
• 11:00
  I was not a huge reader when I was younger. They're quick. You can open up to any page. It's a rule. Maybe 10 or 15 lines about it. And then like a mic drop sort of punch in your gut memory. You can earmark it, take it with you. The second one when I was sharing with you earlier was all of sudden parents were like, what about for us? How do we do it? So I wrote, you know.
• 11:03
  Mike Stroh (35:01)
• 11:06
  Hehehe.
• 11:09
  Yeah,
• 11:12
  Sandy (35:15)
• 11:15
  had a same for parents. I recently wrote one that took out the concept of athlete, but you know, all of this stuff applies where it's just 99 rules to be unshakable under fire. And that was kind of like the first crossover thing for me where really you could be a military person, an executive, CEO, whatever it is. It's just controlling your mind.
• 11:18
  Mike Stroh (35:36)
• 11:21
  Yeah, yeah.
• 11:24
  Sandy (35:44)
• 11:27
  There's a lot of things you can't control, but your mind does not want to.
• 11:30
  Mike Stroh (35:47)
• 11:33
  Yes. ⁓ it just brings up when I was recovering from addiction stuff, my sponsor, I would always complain that I wasn't moving fast enough and other people were moving faster than me and this and that. And I was blessed with a wonderful human being helping me. ⁓ and he would always say, first of all, it's not about them. This is about you.
• 11:36
  And we need to dig and build a very deep and strong foundation so that when life comes and kicks us in the groin, we'll be okay. Very similar to kind of what you're describing. Yeah. Yeah.
• 11:39
  Sandy (36:29)
• 11:42
  I understand that what you just said, maybe more than others, I
• 11:45
  have no problem talking about either. I'm 16 years in the program. ⁓ yeah, I was a high performer and, ⁓ you know, was probably, I always thought I was running towards things because pretty accomplished and a lot of wins, but looking back, I was probably
• 11:48
  Mike Stroh (36:35)
• 11:51
  Yeah.
• 11:54
  Yeah.
• 11:57
  Sandy (36:59)
• 12:00
  I probably misjudged that because I actually was like running away from things. It's just, it's felt like I was running towards things. But yeah, I think the principles that I've learned kind of in that, in that world certainly apply to others, but you know, I'm not equating mindset to addiction or vice versa, but the thoughts that we have in our mind,
• 12:03
  Mike Stroh (37:05)
• 12:06
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:09
  Sandy (37:27)
• 12:12
  You know, there is a linear path between what we put in versus what comes out. No doubt.
• 12:15
  Mike Stroh (37:34)
• 12:18
  Can you I don't know if you are
• 12:21
  Just speak a little bit to kind of how drug addiction or alcoholism or whatever it is in athletics. don't know, Corey Perry is another example. We never hear about these things publicly. You hear the tidbits or whatnot. But clearly, he had some stuff going on. He goes to rehab. He comes back. He starts playing again. ⁓ I guess just how that stuff.
• 12:24
  Sandy (37:50)
• 12:27
  Yep.
• 12:30
  Mike Stroh (38:02)
• 12:33
  intertwines with athletics. know someone who sadly was at the top of junior, all the, you know, OHL this, that, and the other, ⁓ doesn't have the guidance, doesn't have the parents really, and sort of his life falls apart. But maybe just how that, and do you work with people in that domain as well?
• 12:36
  Sandy (38:17)
• 12:39
  Yep.
• 12:42
  ⁓ I do I wouldn't say that's my primary but I again I
• 12:45
  Mike Stroh (38:28)
• 12:48
  Yeah.
• 12:51
  Sandy (38:31)
• 12:54
  always open to doing what I can to try and have a positive impact. ⁓ That's a important thing for me. ⁓ But I think there are some similarities that, ⁓ you know, high pressure environments, ⁓ environments where ⁓ you have to be tenacious, there has to be a backbone or a compass.
• 12:57
  And sometimes people are searching for an escape, an escape from pain, discomfort. ⁓
• 13:00
  anything, consequences and you know it's it's that's pretty common I mean I I know many many ⁓ elite athletes and elite performers who have that how who have that gene ⁓ and you know it's it is it is an escape mechanism that
• 13:03
  Mike Stroh (39:13)
• 13:06
  Yeah.
• 13:09
  Sandy (39:39)
• 13:12
  takes us away from right now. The good, the bad, the ugly, I don't fault anybody for it. It's not fun being uncomfortable, but there is a way to learn how to be comfortable in the discomfort. ⁓ And that I think is shared by many, high performers that they know how to, it's not that others can't, but they know how to navigate.
• 13:15
  Mike Stroh (40:03)
• 13:18
  Yeah.
• 13:21
  Sandy (40:07)
• 13:24
  those waters and understand that it's okay, that things, it's an uncomfortable surroundings, but I can be comfortable in my little portion of it.
• 13:27
  Mike Stroh (40:17)
• 13:30
  And can you, I think it sort of applies that disc. So trying to escape the discomfort. Often we get into things that perhaps aren't so good for us. How do you help people deal with their failures and mistakes? And, maybe it's in, in, in game or just in life. I screwed up at work or I.
• 13:33
  whatever the case may be, the reset shift, I guess, can you talk a bit about that?
• 13:36
  Sandy (40:45)
• 13:39
  Yeah, think an easy way, I think, to understand that is that that ultimately is like an onion. And what a lot of my work focuses on is peeling back the layers and finding out like what really is bothering you? Like, what are you really fearful of?
• 13:42
  very often where we start is not where we end up, right? We're typically, our brain is going to the outcome or the consequence, good or bad, ⁓ when we don't even know if that's going to happen. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't, maybe it already did, who knows? But normally it comes down to some idea of self-doubt. ⁓
• 13:45
  trying to impress, ⁓ but I think confusing the words focus and awareness. And I would give the analogy that I think like I'm looking out my window right now. There's no snow, but like there's a neighbor, like there's a bird, you know, there's the mailman, there's a tree, like that's awareness.
• 13:48
  Mike Stroh (42:12)
• 13:51
  Yeah, yeah.
• 13:54
  Sandy (42:13)
• 13:57
  Focus is like looking into a mirror, right? And a lot of times when we are more aware of who's here, who's watching, what are they gonna think? How am I going to be judged? What are they gonna say about me? Like we're playing the tape so far forward. Maybe it's not even how the story ends. That's almost irrelevant because the tape is about right now. And...
• 14:00
  That's what focuses. ⁓ So I think understanding that difference.
• 14:03
  Big but also again, I said it earlier, but like what what is success is success? Having someone else think that you're being successful or is it inter like is success something for you? It doesn't mean that we don't want to be We don't want people to not say bad things about us. Of course. No one wants that but ultimately They could say bad things about you whether you're the greatest
• 14:06
  Like what matters? Who are you? ⁓ So I think that's typically the place to start, but very rarely is the fear the actual challenge. It's, well...
• 14:09
  Mike Stroh (43:26)
• 14:12
  Right.
• 14:15
  Sandy (43:33)
• 14:18
  I don't want to play poorly. Okay, well why? What's bothering you about that? Well, I don't want to get cut from the team. Okay, well no one does. What bothers you about that? Ultimately, I ask enough questions and it comes back to, I don't want people to think I stink or I don't believe in myself. It's just we let that, we put it through and it pops out somewhere different.
• 14:21
  Mike Stroh (43:55)
• 14:24
  Yeah. Yeah. And in, my clinical work with people that, and also in my own discovery of myself, it, it often just comes down to, I don't want to be alone, be unloved and die. Something like that. Or there's some sort of, not always, but yeah, there's there that, that underlying notion of no one will love me and I'll be alone and miserable. Something like that. Yeah.
• 14:27
  Sandy (44:10)
• 14:30
  I agree.
• 14:33
  Yes, I agree.
• 14:36
  And that's self doubt. It's, it's, and once that becomes the starting point, you are clutching and scrapping and clawing just to get out of the hole. You know, you haven't made any progress down the path. All you've done is just tried to get out of the hole when it's, you know, so I get it. It's hard. It's life.
• 14:39
  Mike Stroh (44:28)
• 14:42
  Right. Yeah.
• 14:45
  Yeah.
• 14:48
  Yeah, it is.
• 14:51
  It is. It is hard.
• 14:54
  I guess sort of, ⁓
• 14:57
  torn on kind of how to.
• 15:00
  ask you the five thoughts that keep running through my mind. ⁓ Maybe one at a time would be. So when you, I guess, are working with someone, do you, do you get, so whether it's an athlete or an executive or business person, whatever human being, I assume it depends on them, what they're going through, et cetera. Do you have any.
• 15:03
  Sandy (44:58)
• 15:06
  Sure.
• 15:09
  Mike Stroh (45:23)
• 15:12
  particular exercises, I know you just described one through trying to get to the root fear of how you just help people discover themselves and discover these fears and build the discipline or the habits around becoming the type of person that you're describing we want to become.
• 15:15
  Sandy (45:44)
• 15:18
  I think a big one is first understanding that, you know because you're in this field, ⁓ and look, I am not one that's, ⁓ like I don't think, ⁓ I'm not a proponent of like participation trophies, I'm not saying that winning doesn't matter, ⁓ you know, the world I live in is just helping someone maximize their potential. So I do think that results,
• 15:21
  of course do matter. ⁓ But I think what's most important is understanding that this type of work is not something that just has to be done, sought out, or looked for when or if something goes wrong. That it's not, this is not, it's not defensive, right? It's not like,
• 15:24
  I think a lot of people confuse it with mental toughness. Like that doesn't mean that you have that your mindset or your mental performance is solid. That, you know, that just means maybe you know how to shell up and take a beating. Like that's not living, that's surviving, you know? So I think it's important, especially for like younger people, that ⁓ we build some of these thoughts into
• 15:27
  Mike Stroh (46:56)
• 15:30
  Right, right. Yeah.
• 15:33
  Sandy (47:10)
• 15:36
  Practice it doesn't have to be super deep but a lot of the younger players we work with you know It's a lot of times on control or what does success mean? How do you lock in? ⁓ Kind of the now what theory like if something goes wrong like well now what right now like what is the next big thing? ⁓ So I I'm always a proponent of Trying to have anybody and everybody
• 15:39
  Mike Stroh (47:15)
• 15:42
  Yeah, yeah.
• 15:45
  Yeah, yeah.
• 15:48
  Sandy (47:40)
• 15:51
  have an idea about what's going on inside their head. think ⁓ you don't have to wait until something goes wrong. ⁓ I suggest that many people don't. This is a way to live and flourish. It's not a way to shell up and take a beating. Those are two totally different things.
• 15:54
  Mike Stroh (47:53)
• 15:57
  You
• 16:00
  Yeah.
• 16:03
  Yeah. Okay. Two other questions. Do you have a hard stop in five minutes? Okay.
• 16:06
  Sandy (48:07)
• 16:09
  Sure. No, I got to probably
• 16:12
  like 11, 10.
• 16:15
  Mike Stroh (48:13)
• 16:18
  Okay, okay. So maybe, ⁓ okay. Two questions I wanted to ask. One was, you know George Mumford? Who that is? Yeah. He talks a lot about this stuff. He's also, I think, ⁓ or was that whatever a 12 stepper. He's a big mindfulness man. He's, he sort of led the charge with a lot of this stuff, I think, which is awesome. maybe, so I don't know, maybe talking about some of his work or, or that sort of.
• 16:21
  Sandy (48:21)
• 16:24
  Yep.
• 16:27
  Yep.
• 16:30
  Mike Stroh (48:40)
• 16:33
  Maybe you think it's the same thing as what we've been talking about. And then the other question was if you were coaching team Canada when we lost the gold medal game after, after thumping you guys for most of the game. ⁓ yeah. How, how, do you deal with things like that? Right. Where the game was tilted one way, maybe not totally. ⁓ so when you do everything you can, et cetera, and it doesn't go your way.
• 16:36
  Sandy (48:49)
• 16:39
  ⁓
• 16:42
  Mike Stroh (49:10)
• 16:45
  so I don't know if those are two things maybe you can pontificate on. Okay. Okay.
• 16:48
  Sandy (49:13)
• 16:51
  I'll take the second one first. And I do
• 16:54
  think that I would give an honest assessment here. ⁓ I thought in that game, I thought the US played a great first period. think starting the second, the US started playing not to lose and Canada started playing to win. I think somewhere like in the third,
• 16:57
  Mike Stroh (49:22)
• 17:00
  Yeah.
• 17:03
  Sandy (49:40)
• 17:06
  You could tell that Canada's body language a little bit started to change. ⁓ And I think frustrations were kind of getting in. It almost looked like, ⁓ you know, they were playing safe ⁓ to not be judged. They didn't want to deal with the noise after the game. I think when you are competing,
• 17:09
  Again, right now matters most. Right now. Not how we're going to be judged or evaluated. That stuff, there's time for that, but it's not during competition. So it just looked to me like they lost their will a little bit. They were playing a little scared, a little tight.
• 17:12
  And I got to be honest, watching the game, I wasn't feeling great after the first period. Like you could just tell the ice was tilted. But I think the US just kept coming. They just hung around and hung around. that game could have been 6-1, honestly, by the end, Canada. And that happens. I'm not bashing Canada. It goes back and forth. But I do think it's an example of...
• 17:15
  Mike Stroh (50:55)
• 17:18
  Yeah.
• 17:21
  Yeah, yeah, for sure, of course. Yeah, yeah.
• 17:24
  Sandy (51:02)
• 17:27
  the importance of staying in the present during competition. Like you have to be all in. You can't be 90%. You know, gotta be all in on right now. ⁓ So that's my assessment on that.
• 17:30
  Mike Stroh (51:19)
• 17:33
  Yeah, yeah. Thanks. Need some therapy on that loss a little bit. Yeah. ⁓ and well, maybe that answers the second question of George Mumford's. took meditation teaching through the same sort of teaching that I got it through. ⁓ But yeah, he the message right is be here now. Right. There only ever is right now.
• 17:36
  Sandy (51:22)
• 17:39
  Yep. I know it. I know it.
• 17:42
  Yep.
• 17:45
  Mike Stroh (51:46)
• 17:48
  And do you have any experience with meditation or that type of stuff? Yeah.
• 17:51
  Sandy (51:50)
• 17:54
  Yeah, yep.
• 17:57
  I would say more on the visualization, I think visualization kind of gets, both of those words I think kind of get a weird rap that it doesn't have to be this like, you know.
• 18:00
  Mike Stroh (51:55)
• 18:03
  Yeah, yeah.
• 18:06
  Mm-hmm.
• 18:09
  Sandy (52:07)
• 18:12
  incense going and like sitting in a weird position, know, ⁓ it's mindfulness and it's clarity, it's intentionality. ⁓ So my work is a lot of visualization, but in order to...
• 18:15
  Mike Stroh (52:08)
• 18:18
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 18:21
  Sandy (52:27)
• 18:24
  visualize, you you have to have a true blank canvas, which I think, you I kind of back into the meditation part, but I am a humongous proponent of helping people get that clarity.
• 18:27
  Mike Stroh (52:36)
• 18:30
  Yeah, yeah.
• 18:33
  Sandy (52:46)
• 18:36
  very tight phrase I say a lot is keep things narrow, know, keep it narrow and you can you can add more but start master the narrowness, you know, and then you can maybe move it a little bit but performance has to be super, super narrow. But I do think that that's very important and I will say that, you know, you can appreciate this but
• 18:39
  Mike Stroh (53:04)
• 18:42
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 18:45
  Sandy (53:15)
• 18:48
  When hockey players, you hear them after a game, like let's say they just got blown out last night in Calgary and now they're getting ready to play in Toronto. And the announcer's like, hey, you guys got murdered last night. What the heck's going on? And you hear the quintessential, yeah, we're just going to get back to the basics, pucks deep, get pucks on net, north-south, grind in the corners. And we kind of laugh about it because they sound robotic.
• 18:51
  Mike Stroh (53:31)
• 18:54
  Yeah.
• 18:57
  Sandy (53:45)
• 19:00
  There is some of that, but what I don't think a lot of people realize is that is why those people are pros. Because the hardest part about being a pro is like being a pro. That today has nothing to do with yesterday. So I know the announcer wants the drama, but the player really is. We're on to today. Today has nothing to do with yesterday.
• 19:03
  Mike Stroh (53:53)
• 19:06
  Yeah, yeah.
• 19:09
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 19:12
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:15
  And yeah, thank you for that. And maybe, can you give us a little example of the visualization stuff? think that stuff really is so powerful. I always use Michael Phelps as an example, because he's sort of famous for promoting his visualization skills and disciplines. can, can what, what could that look like in, in a context? Yeah.
• 19:18
  Sandy (54:38)
• 19:21
  I think for most people,
• 19:24
  the way that it works is not the visualizing so much of process and minute by minute.
• 19:27
  you know, I don't think Michael Phelps was visualizing, okay, my hand's gonna go in the water at this angle, whatever, like, the ones that really moved the needles for the majority of people is visualizing the success, you know, picture yourself activating your senses. Can you hear the crowd? Can you,
• 19:30
  see people clapping or whatever it is and putting people in those situations. Like I do it with a lot of players your son's age, it would take me a minute and a half. I could tell him close his eyes, he's in the locker room.
• 19:33
  Look down, your gear looks insane, your fit's amazing, you hit the ice, it's cool, the ice is so smooth, you can hear your blades cutting in the ice. You look up, you can see your family, pucks go out, you're in the slot, you rip a puck off the crossbar, everybody hears it. It goes in, a couple quick steps in the corner.
• 19:36
  And when I'm doing that, the player, they're smiling and I say, open your eyes. How does that feel? And they're like, it feels amazing. Well, that's visualization.
• 19:39
  Mike Stroh (55:52)
• 19:42
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:45
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:48
  Yep, yep,
• 19:51
  amazing, amazing. Thank you, I got a little goosebumps trying to do that myself. Yeah, while listening, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:54
  Sandy (56:11)
• 19:57
  That's right. Yeah. And that
• 20:00
  so it and anytime someone opens up their eyes, you can like you change the sport, change it circumstance and giving a presentation. You like, who I'm ready to roll. That's.
• 20:03
  Mike Stroh (56:20)
• 20:06
  Yeah.
• 20:09
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm playing
• 20:12
  in my men's league tonight. I'm going to do it. Yeah. ⁓ man.
• 20:15
  Sandy (56:30)
• 20:18
  There we go. Yeah. Yep. Yep. There's a
• 20:21
  great commercial I'm going to send it to you. It's like the funniest thing I've ever seen or some skit of like some guy coming off the ice in a men's league game. And there's a female that goes up to him and it's like starts to talk to him and he's got his hand on his hips. He's like,
• 20:24
  Mike Stroh (56:38)
• 20:27
  Yeah, please do. Yeah.
• 20:30
  Yeah.
• 20:33
  Sandy (56:54)
• 20:36
  Yeah, yeah, we're just not back checking hard. We really got to start grinding in the corners and we really got to get the boys going here. And then the camera pans out and it's his wife and she's like, I'm just going to wait in the car. What's wrong with you? And it's like, it's the funniest commercial. It's a typical beer league talk.
• 20:39
  Mike Stroh (57:09)
• 20:42
  Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, yeah,
• 20:45
  that's amazing. ⁓ Well, Sandy, thank you so much for sharing your time here. Sincerely appreciate it. All your information will be in the show notes and etc. And any lasting things you want to mention or point people to a particular book of yours or just to your website or your content.
• 20:48
  Sandy (57:21)
• 20:51
  Yeah, man. Absolutely.
• 20:54
  Yeah, SandyKohan.com is my branded page. People can get information about speaking or team building or get any of the books. I always suggest to people, yeah, yeah, yeah. Come here, say hi. Come here. Come on, up, up, up. This is Billy. Yeah, that's Billy. ⁓ That it doesn't... ⁓
• 20:57
  Mike Stroh (57:52)
• 21:00
  Is that a duck? Awesome. hi Billy. Yeah, that's awesome.
• 21:03
  Sandy (58:04)
• 21:06
  You know, you're not broken. I don't know why anybody would know how to do these. I didn't and So, you know take invest in the thing I think that makes the most amount of difference, but I Appreciate the opportunity. I'll I'm gonna send you the books. I'll email you the digital copies You can read it before you get on the ice tonight
• 21:09
  Mike Stroh (58:10)
• 21:12
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:15
  sure that would be great.
• 21:18
  All right. Yeah, before I go to the next try out as well. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ God. Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. I will do that. I will do that. All right. Well, thank you again so much. Sincerely appreciate it.
• 21:21
  Sandy (58:30)
• 21:24
  Yeah, that's right. that's right. You can read the athlete one before your game. Read the parent one before his tryout. Yeah.
• 21:27
  Yeah, man. I really appreciate the time. Have a great day, okay, All right,
• 21:30
  Mike Stroh (58:46)
• 21:33
  Thanks, take care.
• 21:36
  Mike Stroh (58:48)
• 21:39
  Thanks for listening to this episode of the State of Mind podcast. Before you go, please consider bringing one idea, one practice, one insight with you and practicing it this week. Let go of any expectations and see what happens.
• 21:42
  Mike Stroh (59:06)
• 21:45
  If you enjoyed this, subscribe, follow us here on Substack on YouTube
• 21:48
  Leave us a kind, encouraging review if you feel so inclined.
• 21:51
  and share this episode with someone who you think might find it helpful.
• 21:54
  Mike Stroh (59:20)
• 21:57
  Remember, live with courage, clarity, and compassion. I wish you all the very best. Take it easy. Peace out.