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Devotion and Discipline: The Yin and Yang of Showing Up · Imagine The Good

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_06: You're tasting your next goal.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_06: The last time you feel truly friends or filled.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_06: You're surrounded by people yet somehow still feel alone.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_06: You built the six.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_06: You're told to collect her.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_06: But you finally wonder, is this all there really is?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_06: Well, then this podcast is for you.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_06: Imagine the good.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_06: So here are your hosts, Jason the Roll.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Hello everyone.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Robin Maher, and welcome to Imagine the Good.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm Jason Dorlo.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: This is episode eight, and today we're going to be talking about devotion and discipline, the yin and yang of showing up.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Online, there's lots of discussion dialogue about discipline.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes when I listen in on those conversations, it feels like there's something missing.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: And as I reflect on the devotion piece and think about my training in energy medicine and the ancient Chinese medicine tradition of the earth element, which is this time, I realize that it's the devotion piece for me in how I hold discipline that makes it feel more complete and sustainable.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I'm excited to talk with you and explore that topic and how those two are complements.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a compliment in here.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: When I think of discipline, or you and your sports career, or I don't think of Robin Maherr was disciplined.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because you did you weren't disciplined in the traditional sense that I experienced discipline.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: Not used, not knowing the term at the time.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't have said, wow, Robin's really embracing devotion.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: I would have never said that.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: But you didn't strike me as a disciplined athlete, even though your actions appeared to someone else as being as embracing a lot of discipline.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: But I just didn't see it as such.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: It was just who you were.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what the right word is, but um you weren't in the early days of getting to know you, uh you weren't what I would have considered a highly disciplined athlete.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's your framing of how you hold that.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so if we think of discipline as training the capacity for effortful, consistent action amid difficulty or resistance, um, it requires less discipline as we go along with something we're doing repeatedly.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then if we think of devotion as warm, open-hearted, caring action rooted in meaning, purpose, and identity in our values, well um for me, it's that uh warmth, open-heartedness, and alignment with what I care about being expressed in action that for me pairs so beautifully with discipline and makes that effortful showing up um intrinsically motivated and more um engaging.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: So they're compliments, but both of us have spoken at times of how people will say to us, Oh, um, you're so disciplined to do X, Y, and Z.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't feel like that because there's such an element of satisfaction in some of the elements of how we've shaped our lives.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but you know, back to the discipline piece.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the reason why I I didn't consider you disciplined was because of my experience of discipline.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: There was no devotion in my journey as an athlete.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: It was it was all discipline.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: And the the fuel, the reason behind that discipline was all fear.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: It was the fear of not making a team, the fear of getting beaten, the fear of losing, the fear of judgment, of not being tough enough, or or what have you.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: Discipline came from a place of of lack, to use sort of a a new age jargon kind of expression, but there was no uh yeah, there was no devotion that was sustaining that the discipline required to what I did.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: What I did, and what you did too, obviously, required nose down, grind, get it done hard.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: And you sort of had to, didn't sort of, you had to ignore the discomfort or or at least live with it, and just know that it was part of the gig.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: I never, I never saw myself, though, having said that, I never saw myself as a disciplined athlete.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: People would say, wow, you must be so disciplined.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: No, this is just what I do, and I have to do it because of what I want at the end.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: And what I wanted at the end, sure, reward and reputation, all that sort of stuff, but it was more the fear of not having that.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: So uh it took me a long time to break loose from there.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: But and it worked.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, hell, it it did its job, I guess, to some degree, but the devotion aspect of this yin yin and yang relationship, there was no uh there was no devotion piece until much longer along the path.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so within uh traditional and sometimes even contemporary culture, sometimes you're talking about discipline without devotion can be force, rigidity, self-criticism, compulsive striving, and lead to burnout, which is what you expect.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: For sure, absolutely.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And devotion void of discipline can be beautiful intentions that that never well um it I would say more inspiration because it for me devotion is the action, it's embodying the action from what you love, from your inspiration, and then putting it into action.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: That is the devotional piece.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um when I when I like I like this discipline here.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: Discipline says, This is what I said I would do.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: That was me.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: That was all me.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: And then the devotion says, This is why it matters to me.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: There, there are like I didn't have a higher, you know, this beautiful reason or why it mattered to me.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: My the reason why it mattered to me was quite dark, actually.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: And something that I didn't appreciate at the time was was limiting and dysfunctional, and all those all those pieces that interfered with what I actually wanted to attain.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the ass backwardness of of elite sport in in many instances, is that there is a dark element to it that can be, thank you, that often perpetuates the an old school approach to discipline.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: Is that fair?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: In in some pockets, I would say that with the evolution of sport psychology, the same with workplace psychology, the the recognition that when we're connected to service and meaning, um, that those elements sustain us and activating our caring system, uh, all of those pieces fortify our ability to show up and engage in meaningful, sometimes, oftentimes difficult work.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: So uh But I if I can just jump in there.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I would say it's not it's not just sport because we see it in the clients we work with who show up on you know, sort of the on the edge of burnout.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: Or have begun the process of I can't I can't do this anymore.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: I've run out of reasons to come to work every day.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: And and so invariably, when you it doesn't take much digging to realize they have been a grinder their entire career and they've relied on discipline to get them to where they are.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: And now it's failing them.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, go ahead.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: The research on workplace engagement, on uh sustainable effort, again, meaning and purpose are central to that in the workplace as well.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there's uh there's a shift uh to recognizing that those are important, that knowing our why for our engagement um makes it easier to sustain work that asks a lot of ourselves.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: And and I was that as an athlete.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: I believed all you needed was a very strong disciplined muscle and to get through tough times, what have you, right?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: But and in my second attempt for the 1992 Olympics, that's all I had was discipline because I didn't I I hated rowing, right?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: I had arrived at a place where I did not enjoy it, but it was the only thing I could do to garner the redemption and the revenge and every and the retribution that I was in, I was hell-bent set on in that in that uh uh quadrennial, in that comeback for 92 after Seoul.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh it was a head-down, get through it, get her done kind of mentality.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: And it's no wonder it took me where it took me.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: So at the time I didn't understand why, but now obviously hindsight, it was textbook that it that it uh that it was so powerful initially and then waned quite quickly, six months or so.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: So but you know, it's uh and as I said, it's not just athletes, we see it all the time in the people we work with.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and uh coming back to what we've referenced in other episodes in terms of how we attend to the world in the Gilcrest work, uh being in task mode, uh a left dominant way of attending, it's ticking off the boxes, getting things done, versus a relational mode of what do I care about, what am I in service of, and how do I embody my care and stay connected to that in ways that I then turn to engaging in what needs to be done that may be repetitive in terms of showing up every day, but the qualitative difference is there.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: So there's there's um a tenderness with the toughness that comes together when we mix devotion and discipline.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: And now I'm at a place where I realize one without the other is uh is a limited recipe, right?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: It you the the discipline requires, it's it's an and, it's not an or.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: And uh when you couple it with the devotion, it just you've got a you've got a more powerful but an also a more sustainable source of fuel.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, what of doing hard thing hard things and treating ourselves with care, that they're not opposites.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that would have been blasphemy in my day.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: The idea of being uh compassionate or soft on yourself, is as it were, would have been seen as a weakness or or sort of, I don't know, this may sound really old, but almost against the code, if you will, because it was um it just wasn't part of the dialogue.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like the the idea of hey, take it easy on yourself.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like, no, that's that's never going to be an expression that that I would have heard, or you know, it just was more and how often.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, not that this notion of self-compassion uh as a way to get to that devotion piece, just um yeah, just wasn't part of the culture.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh more typical, the cultural associations of grind, sacrifice, control, willpowers, no excuses, take no prisoners.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas devotion relating to love, reverence, loyalty, care, wholeheartedness, that was a world that wasn't part of your experience and and still And not just me.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and I'd say it's still prevalent.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: Goodness, you only have to watch or listen to uh hockey hockey pundits or or any any sports pundit describe a competitive paradigm, and you know, maybe more so now.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: You're hearing words like love and brotherhood and sisterhood, and yeah, you know, that that's a little, I wouldn't say mainstream, but you're hearing it more.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um so there is a shift, and for the better.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: And for me, my shift was was really understanding that I didn't want to perpetuate an old approach to coaching, to high performance.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: So what I had been taught, which was highly combative, win at all costs, sacrifice, grind, work harder than the next guy.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: So when it was my turn to coach, that was my bag of tools.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: And it worked, right?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: It did.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: But when I came to the decision that I didn't want to keep that narrative alive, and I changed my process to adapt what I learned from you, row because you love rowing, embrace your competitor as a as an opportunity, not a threat.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, everything was about getting better each day, you know, a more holistic approach, right?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: There was no win at all costs, umbrella holding the whole thing together.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: It was how fast can we get, how how much can we improve, how much can this transform us?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: And initially that took discipline, right?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: To not be the old coach.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: When the feedback, when I watched the process unfold, when I watched the impact of that form of coaching, then boom, I was sold.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: That was it.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't need the discipline anymore.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: It then became um devotion, devotion to the transformation of athletes.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: Now, it just so turns out that when you change the lives of a of a young athlete in a positive manner, invariably they they become better athletes.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so as they won more national championships, that there was just it would become a no-brainer.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: How do you how do you even argue this?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: This is the way.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, initial discipline, but once it's coupled with devotion, it be it almost becomes um unstoppable.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: I certainly have found it to be a very potent mix and they they balance each other.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: The devotion without uh engaging in something because it really aligns with our values and feels worthy of uh occupying a huge uh space in our lives and then the discipline to organize our life around what we say matters.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um But when you were an athlete, like how did you how did you land on on the side of devotion?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like who who was your what got you there?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh literally a bump on the head, um a clarity about what matters.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: Was that through a person or through an experience?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well my my first year university, um uh I I I returned to that question uh over time.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: So the when I um first year university had uh got hit by a car riding my bike, woke up in the hospital, didn't remember getting hit.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um I asked when the possibility of not running or competing again was on the table, it invited the question uh do I value this because my academics had been front and center, but I appreciated the experiences I'd had through sport and got clarity that I really wanted to see what I was capable of doing.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um so that element combined with the how later, when in 88 I was fourth at the Olympic trials and didn't ask reach my my goal of making the Olympic team and felt like I had blinders on.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: I realized that if I was going to explore my long prop long-term potential, I wanted to the how of what I was doing needed to be different.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: The inherent quality of it.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: So um with reflection of how do I want to live my life, clarifying values, and then the series of of um exploration and uh reflection on uh how do I personally define success and seeing relationship at the heart of that.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: So returning again to the question of clarity: what do I want my life to be about and what matters, and lining up with that, and then feeling how that energized what I was doing.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: So inviting people to explore before you hunker down to get disciplined about something, asking the question, what is this in service of and why does this matter?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: And when we have clarity of that, then a whole host of things that can feel like scattered effort effort can sort of line up into, for example, I want to have health and vitality so I think about how I organize my life so that I have the energy to engage the things that matter most to me, because um health is the first wealth, as the expression goes.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I want the energy and well-being to engage in things that I care about.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um But but discipline's gotta have a I I don't know.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how you get my hands.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: So, but do you not see how the discipline comes first?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: They come together.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll go back to, I think about uh as an athlete, as a teenager in rural Nova Scotia, I didn't enjoy going out to train by myself as much as I love getting out on the trails here.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was very effortful, and it took a uh a push for me to get out the doors at time, at times, whereas um the enjoyment factor went up exponentially because I love being on forest trails.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um and the climate was much when you came out here, yeah, much kinder than uh some of the severe weather that I had.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: So it required discipline though.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: Do you get my point?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like yes, I'm not yeah, it required discipline.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying that devotion makes it it wraps around discipline in a way that makes it more sustainable.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: There's still effort, okay.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that passion and open-heartedness, even the physiology of it, when we activate our caring system, it downregulates stress hormones in ways that we tolerate cortisol and adrenaline um better, and there's less wear and tear on the body.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's research that shows that it feeds persistence.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, I think it was David Yeager who did work with um students where when they were told uh when they were invited to engage as an act of caring beyond themselves, they persisted and showed up with more engagement.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: So because there was service inherent in the work?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because there was service in the work.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so when we uh have devotion and are connected to our care and it gives us the energy and the fuel to show up to the thing that takes discipline.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why I feel like they're for me, they really hold hands, especially for how I'm wired.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I love my comforts.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: I I um it it just feels like it's the fuel that allows discipline to be sustained.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: But I I just feel like my experience of discipline, uh, you're you have to pull the discipline bag is bigger at the beginning because you need to pull from that more to get the train going, if you will.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: And then the devotion kicks in and goes, Yeah, okay, this is worth it.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to commit myself to this.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: There can be a feedback loop between the two of them.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I agree with you, when we're starting something new, it's more effortful.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: So there's more discipline required for elements of the things that sustain what we're devoted to at the beginning before it's become habituated.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: So when we are very practiced at um doing something over and over again, it takes less discipline to show up.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it can still be effortful, but there's less discipline involved because we've habituated it.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yep, I get that.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: And um devotion can be the fuel that gets us to sign up and and work with that discipline at the beginning and can sustain us when uh once we've habituated something.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: If we don't have devotion and care about it, then uh it might feel like it's just wearing us down.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I think they feed on each other and can complement.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think I appreciate that more in a way now that I that, you know, obviously we've talked about this before, but if someone had had if this devotion piece had been normalized in our culture where you could uh talk about the enjoyment, I guess, um of the process in a way that that wasn't so macho, then yeah, then maybe that might have been allowed in or accepted, if you, you know, if you will.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so anyway, I I I think we've evolved.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think, you know, based on the people we work with, you it certainly seems like a it's less of a sell, if you will.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's recognition, and there's been a big shift in the time that we've been doing this work, and just looking at self-determination theory in terms of um the recognition that autonomy, purpose, and and positive social relations, how foundational they are for people being engaged in their work and and being productive in the workplace.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: As we talked about previously, the idea that when you do something because you say it said you would versus because you were told you better.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's that pulls on different things.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: The difference between running up a hill uh because I said so, right, uh the effort to do that versus running up a hill because you're excited to see what you can achieve by being committed.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm so the reason I'm laughing, I'm going back to grade oh goodness, I don't know, grade seven or eight, and we had this crazy um Harriers, I mean, uh what cross-country coach, and we would do hills, and he was a good runner in his youth, and he would run beside us with a stick, and he would whack you with that stick if you slowed down, and he would lose his job, unfortunately.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I won't I won't mention the school, but oh my goodness.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: When I think of some of the insane coaches that I had, he would be certainly vying for one of the top positions, but um yeah, I mean that that to me is is a because I said so moment, right?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: And if you don't, you get hit.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: So that is pulling discipline because there's no devotion there.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's survival when there's survival.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and and you know, and credit where credit's due.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it got us up the hill, right?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: But but there was no enjoyment.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: So we weren't, it's there, weren't it, it wasn't like we finished the workout going, wow man, I can't wait to do hills again next week.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so and so there's that trade-off.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: You can you can rely on discipline in in those hard moments, but if that's the only fuel you've got, or only tool in the tool in the in the tool bag, then good luck.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's gonna it's uh it's gonna turn around and grab its own stick and you know give you a SWAT.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: And just to contrast that with the energy of uh, you know, a parent with an infant, just the exhaustion that can come with that, and yet it's hopefully so full of love.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: Just that the hard thing is the easy thing because you wouldn't think of compromising caring for your child uh and their vulnerability, or even um a sick, a sick dog that's up repeatedly in the middle of the night.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: You just so want to comfort and care for them in their vulnerability, yeah, that it there's the effort gets dialed down.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's an excellent example.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because your heart is so engaged with love.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I think anyone who who has either helped a sick dog or sick human or you know, being a caregiver or a parent, there it's not like you know, it's not like you yell shut up to the crying baby in the you know, and roll over and put the pillow over your head, right?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: There's that that just does, at least I hope, that does not happen.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: You get your ass out of bed and you attend to what needs attending, not be not out of any form of discipline.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: You're right, it is absolutely, oh my goodness, there's a part of me that is in stress, yes, and I'm going to do whatever I can in my ability to support.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: And and at no point, like when I think back to the yeah, to some of those tiring nights or moments or whatever in in the first year, two years, there's uh you know, there's no begrudging or resentment, or it's just what you do.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: There is something, I don't know, there's got to be a chemical thing going on, but it's oxytocin for the most.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, there you go.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what mine was, but you have less but something gets you out of bed and some something pulls you to be engaged and helpful, right?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: Now, when you so I I don't know how you create another example where a part of you, uh a child, is in in distress and requires your help, like make it about uh I don't know, something uh inanimate.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, that's that's like uh you can wait till the morning and I'm going back to bed.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: So things that don't have devotion or pull on the heartstrings can get put on the shelf for a while, like filing our taxes can be an example that comes to mind uh until it becomes, oh, this neglected thing interferes with um things I care about uh emotionally and has consequences, so it can uh dial up the motivation to um be disciplined about doing the thing that's that's not um automatically engaging.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: And and so, and you know, I think of our work when we've been on the road and conditions, you know, we may have had uh sleep challenges, and conditions have not been optimal, and yet we we do what we need to do to take care of ourselves, to show up in service of the people we're working with.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a staining sustaining energy that comes from being really clear about why we're there and how we're serving and caring about the work, uh, how that sustains us.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: But when the work ends, there's a crash.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, we've we've done something difficult at times that has been a stretch.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it matters and that helps sustain right.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: You show up.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like when uh when when we used to when we go to work in Ontario, so if we're traveling three time zones, arrive late at night on a on a Thursday, uh, you're there for an eight o'clock start the next morning, that's given the time change, that's an ugly moment, right?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: But you show up, you sort of rally the troops, if you will, and pull the strength from somewhere, and you get it done.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: And you and you do it with um with a genuine source of of engagement.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: But when it's all over and the body can now sort of let itself go, recover, it it takes uh it takes advantage of that.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: And as we've both experienced, there's if we let it and make space for it.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's a discipline in recovery as well, in terms of it's not just about the the hard effort.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes uh the discipline is in being willing to rest and being willing to take care of ourselves in ways that allow us to be in service of what uh what we want to do and how we want to give.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: So it there's an ex it's an example of how um discipline sometimes is doing the hard thing, and the hard thing might be resting when we're so used to just plowing forward.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think I've shared with you, I remember one time uh before the 96 Olympics, uh, there's often undulation in in preparation and travel.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I I went to the track three days in a row before I did a really significant workout.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: And uh asking the question, what am I trying to achieve with this?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Being willing to hold back until I was in an adaptive window.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: I had an awesome workout when I finally uh kind of did it.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: But that attunement to my body, it wasn't just I have to push, I have to go hard.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's what is this work in service of?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: And do we have the the devotion that we're flexible enough to change and adapt?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because sometimes there's an association with discipline um free of devotion, and the the meaning and purpose can sometimes lose its way and become obsessive about just doing the things.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because that wouldn't have happened in our world.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: If it's on the sheet, it's on the sheet.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're scheduled to do 1070 strokers Wednesday morning, you're doing 1070 strokers, and there's no, hey, how are you feeling?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: Are you up to this?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's just not that's not happening.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: So, and maybe it should have, I don't know, but um it was more whatever's whatever is scheduled is what's getting done.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so, and that and that's where the discipline piece was was holding the wheel all the time.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, one element of that was a team sport, and there's still ways to uh invite the, you know, if someone's about on the verge of getting sick and they just do an uber intense workout that takes them out of the boat, does that serve the team?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: Or should that person have adjusted what they were doing to recover sufficiently to advance their fitness in ways that support the team?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: That guy's getting sick.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: And now and now, um how do we modify those things to move the collective good forward without expending people?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: And take that out of a sport sport in a workplace setting setting and move it into a workplace.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, asking yourself, okay, if it's on if it's on the calendar today, does that mean it gets done regardless?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: But I think the question, the pushback becomes, Robin, is okay, am I just getting soft, or is this genuinely a decision that needs to be made to move this to another date where it might be more effective?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's that's a legitimate question.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and for concern.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, that's where devotion really serves the discipline because you are so clear.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's clarifying, and it allows you to spend less time wasted in that.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's such alignment with the the care of what you're serving that that something that's going to undermine the purpose doesn't get ticked out of automaticity of I gotta do this thing because it's on the sheet.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's what is this in service of?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: In the same way that you talk about um rigidity in the classroom, when a teacher says, This is Friday, this is the lesson plan, we're doing it, rather than where are these kids at?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: What can they take in and how can we optimize the learning experience?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: And good example.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I think what's different there is a seasoned teacher versus a young newbie.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: So in your first year, first months, uh, I don't know, until until you kind of figure it out, whatever's on that lesson plan is getting done.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: Come hella high water.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: And part of that is coming from this perhaps the stress that a young person in a workplace or in a teaching uh job, their stress level of doing it right and following that doesn't give them the freedom that um somebody that has more experience may have better regulation in their system.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: So they have the flexibility to think more creatively, to problem solve, to have higher order response because of their training and practice, that a nervous beginner maybe got to stick to the plan because uh they don't have the the space within to have a more adaptive response.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but I think that adaptive response only comes with experience.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: You you've got to put in some you've got to put in some time to know when do you push, when do you change the lesson plan, when do you say this class is not ready or something happened earlier in the day that's affected everyone, I think we need to wait till next class.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like that doesn't come unless you have the experience and the confidence and the know-how to to know what when do you push and when do you pull back.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: And um we tend to get better at life experience.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think so, absolutely.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: But but um I'm trying to think though, as a coach, you know, if I ever yeah, I guess, I guess I think I'm just wondering if there were times where I delayed a workout because I didn't think the group was ready.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm gonna say, yeah, maybe more towards the end of my time.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: But for the most part, if it was on the schedule, it was happening.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: And but mind you, in laying out that schedule, there was a lot of experience that went into that schedule.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so it it created time for rest and recovery just through the schedule.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: It was built into the system, built into the process.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas I think as a younger athlete, I used to get myself into trouble because we would get our week, our training for the week, and then I would find little pockets to add extra workouts.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: So then come Thursday, I'm screwed because I'm so tired that Friday and Saturday are just survival workouts.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: And then finally I met, you know, we were we had to meet with these sports psyches, and he said, Anything, you know, anything you want to talk about?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: He goes, Yeah, every time I get to Thursday, I'm exhausted.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: So he asked, What are you doing?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I told him, he said, Well, give your head a shake, buddy.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: What like you're working with a national team coach who knows what they're doing, trust them, trust their their schedule, trust their process.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I did that, sure, then it things got better.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: But my inexperience of an athlete and working under someone else's schedule, always thinking I needed to do uh more was better, led me to to not to to close to burnout.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one extreme.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: But the but the other thing that you were poking at earlier is a willingness.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have to feel like it in order to show up.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so um we don't eliminate discomfort to take meaningful action.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um commitment to showing up and our values is an important part of being able to actualize our ability to think that's why with you know, with n nowadays, it's funny, you know, as I'm what, as I'm turning 62 tomorrow, I find sometimes discipline is is something I wish I had more of.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like it seems like that muscle has diminished as I've gotten older.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: Now, when I dig into that and I do the research, they link it to uh you know lower levels of testosterone and and just um hormone changes within the male body, or or I don't I don't know the science of it, so I'm not gonna pretend to speak about it and think that I do.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: But that's the layman terms that I take from that.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: So what I find is that is that I have to flex the disciplined muscle more than I ever used to.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: And that kind of pisses me off that that I've lost that um this is just who I am, this is what I do.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh now I find that uh I can delay a workout or a run or work that needs to get done more easily than than I ever have.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, it's it's bizarre.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: And some of that can be uh your energy needs are different right now at this point in your life.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so having a bit more flexibility, so that uh recovery is part of the process.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: See, but what happens is there's an old story in there, right, that says you delay this workout and you're a suck.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: And that 17-year-old kid shows up and says, Don't you dare, right?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: So then the battle ensues.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: And and I don't think I'm alone.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think other people have that same uh you know back and forth in their head.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: But so the conversation is a little different right now in terms of inviting the question, what is this in service of?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: Will I am I in a an adaptive window to train right now, or is there benefit in delay?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: And which is different than um I feel like doing it, which there's motivation there versus I'm willing to do it because it matters.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: And we can, but there's still an assessment of are the energy demands for this am I in that zone and will it be adaptive?
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or because there's also research that shows as we age that we may need more recovery time.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you're using your 17-year-old filter for for your current self, yeah, it doesn't matter, doesn't matter, he's still there.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well stick in hand.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: So again, that's where what is the workout in service of in terms of your fitness and your health?
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: You have different goals now, right?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: And and and that's a really good point.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's a really good point because even I've admitted that look, I don't train anymore.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_03: I've I've accepted that.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_03: This is all about longevity and and health and well-being and vitality and all that kind of stuff.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: So my reason for working out is different than it ever used to be.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's just trying on that those new that new jacket of and getting comfortable with uh what I would have called a softer approach back in the day, right?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: So and that takes some, yeah, just like anything, it just takes some getting used to.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the uh uh there's a yin quality uh to listening to your body, to being in relationship with it, to honoring it and being attuned.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: So in some ways, um but the paradox and is that those yin qualities um enable strength in the same way that the expression of the bamboo that is able to bend and flex.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Has more resilience and strength than something that is rigid.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so um habits the discipline of again showing up, having structure, taking action, um, being persistent, those are important qualities too.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's just can you complement it with the attunement of listening to the body and making a decision that serves the reason you do it in the first place?
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's fair.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: And and like anything, it's I understand that.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's just putting it into practice because those old beliefs, those old habits, I mean, goodness, that's a lifetime of that, right?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: And now in the last number of years, the game's changing a bit in a way that that just wasn't before.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_03: I still considered myself training within the last decade, anyway, maybe even five years.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: And now it's just totally different.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, when my when our chiropractor told me you need to go from three workouts a day down to two, I a week.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_03: A week in the weight room.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: I told, you know, I looked at him like he was, but what are you talking about?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: And and and his point was we want you working out when you're in your 80s, not, you know, it's this isn't about next looking great next summer at the beach.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: This is not that I ever worried about that, but it's just it again, back to that long game.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: There's a different, there's a different reason now when I step into our weight room.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_03: And and it's getting used to that.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like my my first response to him was well, that's you know, that's soft.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_03: But why would I want to get rid of one workup?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so you're talking about the shadow side of discipline when it becomes distorted and its control, rigidity, and you're punishing yourself if you I better do this.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: So um, in the same way that devotion can have be self-abandoned when we give so much to a cause that we neglect ourselves and and can't sustain.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: So um again, coming back to the questions, um what am I serving?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: And am I enslaved by it or um is it life affirming?
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: And does it enlarge my life or am I diminished by by this?
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a balance element, yeah.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and not confusing loyalty and devotion with uh refusal to let go when when something's or and refuse refusal to change when uh a situation invites that.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_03: And see, I and I think it's just recognizing that there was a time and a place, there is a time and a place for discipline and for, dare I say, a bit of stubbornness, like like sort of digging in.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_03: But I think there comes a time where there are negative returns.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and I've reached that time where where that stubbornness is not supporting my general health and well-being.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I think for a lot of people as well, who who might who are at a as they're as they age, they just uh depending on on how seriousness, how serious they take their fitness, I mean, hell, there are changes going on, right?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: And and we have to be able to adapt.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_03: So and and yeah, so be because if you're thinking long term, then yeah, it just makes more sense.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_03: So anyway.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: Entertaining the question is your discipline rooted in love or fear?
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, true.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: True.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: And when it's in love, then the question the answer is easy.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: When it's in fear, it's I know better, but it's still it still wants to be the the choice, if that makes any sense.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: And if you think of that yin and yin frame again, healthy discipline protects devotion from distraction, and healthy devotion protects discipline from becoming tyranny.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: But I think the work, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna that old guy that younger guy's still there.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think the the challenge, the work in this, is being able to recognize is sort of having a gatekeeper for the devotion, so that the devotion doesn't become a dialing down of ambition or work ethic or I don't know.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: Am I being archaic in that?
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like am I again to me, devotion dials up and enables the discipline because they hold hands and it's the sustaining fuel.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: But but see, I'm interpreting it as uh as devotion having uh uh more a bigger having a sense of the of the the big picture in mind.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas discipline is in the in the immediate, discipline gets called on.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas I see devotion deals with uh you know, sort of the big scope, the the long game, the big picture, all of that.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess what I worry about that is the oh, don't worry about it, you can do it tomorrow kind of thing, right?
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_03: Or let's just take the day off.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's so let me ask you this when a baby's crying in the middle of the night, night after night, is that the long game or is that right here now when you have to get meals uh for your family when you're showing up for practice um with work and colleagues every day.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: But talking oneself out of anything, it doesn't have to be a workout, it can be a project, it can be a chore, it can be anything.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_03: Talking someone out of that, which ultimately is a choice, I think becomes easier when there's nothing on the line other than you.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: So whether someone chooses to go for a walk, a hike, a run, a workout, you know, no one else is really impacted but yourself.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so to be able to say, ah, we'll do it on, you know, we'll do it next week, or we'll do it tomorrow, or that becomes an easier exit when no, am I like that's see, that's what I feel I've lost is the this like in my disciplined times, that conversation's not even happening.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's just are you kidding me?
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like we're doing this today.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas now it's oh, but yeah, I gotta get this done and this done, and I'm kind of tired.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_03: It was it worked, you know, it was hard getting up the stairs.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, something.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'll look for any excuse.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, I don't know.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_03: I just that's my concern with when when discipline takes a backseat, is that I'm not suggesting it take a back seat.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm suggesting it hold hands.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: That they compliment and that they compliment.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_03: You got me.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that when we're devoted, discipline becomes easier.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: So I need to be more devoted to my long-term health.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_02: The more clarity that we have about what we care about, then that that energy uh in empowers discipline action.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_03: And anyone listening, I mean, same thing, right?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: You you I just think, you know, it sort of comes back to what's the fuel.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: And if the fuel is, if the fuel requires discipline, then maybe you need a bigger, better fuel.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is that fair?
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I wouldn't necessarily agree because um sometimes we really care about something and there's still really hard aspects of it that are not as easy to engage, that there may be a lack of skill or a not knowing how.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh just there may be a piece of that that is uh challenging.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: So you're on your fourth book, the first book that you wrote.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um you didn't have a lot of experience writing.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that took perspiration, inspiration, discipline.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_03: Well, a lot of it was ignorance.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: I just didn't know any better.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I just a lot of discipline to show up every day to write.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_03: Fair.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: But when I write now, there you're, you know, that's a fair point.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_03: There's a different feel.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm uh number one, I enjoy the process.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't back then.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_03: I was a search and puncher, and you know, I didn't know, I just I just wasn't experienced.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_03: But today, yeah, there's there's a different fuel that pulls me along, right?
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: There, there's a tremendous amount of satisfaction and fulfillment that comes with writing.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_03: Back then, not at all.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_03: It was a get-ter-done mentality, for sure.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, that's a good example.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good example.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'm out.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm out of uh I'm out of arguments and and what examples.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the question isn't how hard can I push myself, it is what do I care about deeply enough that I'm willing to keep showing up for it.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that can come from care as opposed to coercion.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh leaving people leaving people with that.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: What do they care uh deeply enough that they're willing to organize a chunk of their life around?
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_02: And what might that be for each of us?
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: Big question.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, and I wouldn't say a life, well, I guess maybe a life-changing question, but certainly a question that can uh impact how you go through your days, for sure.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and for me, just the the living an embodied open-hearted life, I feel aligned with how I want to be in the world.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that empowers me to do hard things.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, okay.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's not a a disciplined life that's organized around force, it's organized organized around what I care about.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so I invite us to go more deeply into that and to have our audience explore how would that feel differently?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: How am I already doing that in ways that sustains me and gives me strength and energy?
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: And how do I want to play with that?
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_03: Nice one.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: Alrighty.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I've come out of this conversation with some things to ponder.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_03: So that's always a good thing.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: So thanks.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: And thanks for joining us today.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: If you've enjoyed this episode, please uh like and subscribe below and tell your friends.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you next time.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_03: Bye everyone.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_06: So that's it for today's episode of The Madison the Good.
• 55:48
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• 56:10
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